How do Akikai Aikido students learn about KI?

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[ronin67]

Just coureous, how Akikai Aikido practioners learn the concept of KI? How do you learn to extend KI in a technique as compared to muscling thru it? Watching many Aikido videos (Akikai Style) and it just seems to me that they are muscling thru the techniques. Yet, when I watch O'sensei's later videos before his death, he isn't using the pure physical aspect. How does a Akikai student learn how to apply KI? Can you develop this outside of just doing the waza? Thanks and may God bless!

Ed:)

[Alex Megann]

Just coureous, how Akikai Aikido practioners learn the concept of KI? How do you learn to extend KI in a technique as compared to muscling thru it? Watching many Aikido videos (Akikai Style) and it just seems to me that they are muscling thru the techniques. Yet, when I watch O'sensei's later videos before his death, he isn't using the pure physical aspect. How does a Akikai student learn how to apply KI? Can you develop this outside of just doing the waza? Thanks and may God bless!

Ed:)

Hi Ed,

I think you will find in general a huge variety of ways of practising as well as of teaching under the Aikikai "umbrella".

My personal experience is that within the Aikikai "muscling thru it" is generally regarded as bad aikido. I don't know your level of experience, but in my opinion it is not always easy at an early level to tell the difference between technically excellent aikido, aikido performed with inner power, and aikido where uke falls too easily (either to make tori look or feel better or simply through habit).

My only time watching a ki aikido class (just one sample, so it is probably not representative) was disappointing - after all the ki exercises in the first part of the class I was expecting superior aikido, but what I did see was surprisingly scrappy and looked pretty ineffective. However, I have been in a couple of classes with Koretoshi Maruyama Sensei (ex-Ki Society), and found him deeply impressive, As I said, there is a lot of variation wherever you go.

I'm not sure either what you mean by "how to apply KI". I'm not convinced that Tohei Sensei's guidelines and the exercises he taught are the same thing as what is often referred to on AikiWeb as "kokyu skills", but that's a whole different discussion.

Alex

[Mark Freeman]

I think you will find in general a huge variety of ways of practising as well as of teaching under the Aikikai "umbrella".

Hi Alex,

My guess is that this may be true for most, if not all styles of aikido. I hope to find out on my proposed journey next year.

My personal experience is that within the Aikikai "muscling thru it" is generally regarded as bad aikido. I don't know your level of experience, but in my opinion it is not always easy at an early level to tell the difference between technically excellent aikido, aikido performed with inner power, and aikido where uke falls too easily (either to make tori look or feel better or simply through habit).

True, I can't imagine any style where muscling through it would be considered anything but bad. Why use effort when you don't have to.

My only time watching a ki aikido class (just one sample, so it is probably not representative) was disappointing - after all the ki exercises in the first part of the class I was expecting superior aikido, but what I did see was surprisingly scrappy and looked pretty ineffective. However, I have been in a couple of classes with Koretoshi Maruyama Sensei (ex-Ki Society), and found him deeply impressive, As I said, there is a lot of variation wherever you go.[

What level was the teacher, at the class you visited? what were they lacking? and what was it about Maruyama, that you found so impressive?

I'm not sure either what you mean by "how to apply KI". I'm not convinced that Tohei Sensei's guidelines and the exercises he taught are the same thing as what is often referred to on AikiWeb as "kokyu skills", but that's a whole different discussion.

I agree, "how to apply ki?" is a very broad question, which I am not sure can adequately explained anyway, using only words, it HTBF as they say.

I've been following the arguments over what constitutes kokyu skills on these boards for years, probably best to leave that can of worms with the lid on for now.:)

regards,

Mark

[ronin67]

Hi Ed,

I think you will find in general a huge variety of ways of practising as well as of teaching under the Aikikai "umbrella".

My personal experience is that within the Aikikai "muscling thru it" is generally regarded as bad aikido. I don't know your level of experience, but in my opinion it is not always easy at an early level to tell the difference between technically excellent aikido, aikido performed with inner power, and aikido where uke falls too easily (either to make tori look or feel better or simply through habit).

My only time watching a ki aikido class (just one sample, so it is probably not representative) was disappointing - after all the ki exercises in the first part of the class I was expecting superior aikido, but what I did see was surprisingly scrappy and looked pretty ineffective. However, I have been in a couple of classes with Koretoshi Maruyama Sensei (ex-Ki Society), and found him deeply impressive, As I said, there is a lot of variation wherever you go.

I'm not sure either what you mean by "how to apply KI". I'm not convinced that Tohei Sensei's guidelines and the exercises he taught are the same thing as what is often referred to on AikiWeb as "kokyu skills", but that's a whole different discussion.

Alex

Alex thanks for your input. I would have to agree to a certain extent. Coming from the Ki Aikido side, it does seem that some just go thru the motion and just fall. However, I have seen some Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido practioners really ensure the extension of Ki is very effective (with painful results on the receiving end). I just can't believe how different the approach is sometimes. When I studied with the Honolulu Ki society, We had some Aikikai Students attend from Japan. It was cool to get a different perspective, but the whole principle of KI seemed almost alien to them, as compared to the level Tohei Sensei instilled in his KI Aikido. Ki Aikido is so soft in nature, many Aikido practitioners dismiss this style all together. I personally have never practiced Aikikai Aikido, so to speculate would not be accurate or fair. It looks real cool, and more harder in nature. The question is, can the extreame soft style of KI Aikido be just as effective in the street as Aikikai Aikido?

May God Bless!

Ed

[Alex Megann]

Hi Alex,

What level was the teacher, at the class you visited? what were they lacking? and what was it about Maruyama, that you found so impressive?



This was quite a few years ago - I guess the teacher was shodan or nidan, which of course isn't an advanced grade in any sense, but he was senior to me at the time, and I was expecting more, given my preconceptions of the Tohei line.

I really liked Maruyama's teaching manner and humble presence in the class, and his aikido seemed to me to be on an unusually high level. As an example, one time he asked me out as uke to hold him ushiro munedakishime (bear-hug from behind), and I felt there was absolutely nothing there to hold. Then I fell over. Mind you, I have felt similar things from teachers within the Aikikai: for instance from Kanetsuka, Yamaguchi and Yamashima Senseis.


I've been following the arguments over what constitutes kokyu skills on these boards for years, probably best to leave that can of worms with the lid on for now.:)


Yup, hence my brevity... :)

Alex

[Alex Megann]

Ki Aikido is so soft in nature, many Aikido practitioners dismiss this style all together. I personally have never practiced Aikikai Aikido, so to speculate would not be accurate or fair. It looks real cool, and more harder in nature. The question is, can the extreame soft style of KI Aikido be just as effective in the street as Aikikai Aikido?


Shin Shin Toitsu / the Ki Society definitely don't have the monopoly on softness! My experience of the Yamaguchi line (Yamaguchi himself, and also Endo and Yamashima) has shown me what can happen if you let go of muscular effort and replace it with something else. I gather some Aikikai practitioners are sceptical about these teachers, but I for one have no doubts at all...

Alex

[Gorgeous George]

Just coureous, how Akikai Aikido practioners learn the concept of KI? How do you learn to extend KI in a technique as compared to muscling thru it? Watching many Aikido videos (Akikai Style) and it just seems to me that they are muscling thru the techniques. Yet, when I watch O'sensei's later videos before his death, he isn't using the pure physical aspect. How does a Akikai student learn how to apply KI? Can you develop this outside of just doing the waza? Thanks and may God bless!

Ed:)

Muscling the techniques...?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbxWbehlB98

[Alex Megann]

Muscling the techniques...?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbxWbehlB98

Nice. Very nice.

Alex

[Gerardo Torres]

Just coureous, how Akikai Aikido practioners learn the concept of KI? How do you learn to extend KI in a technique as compared to muscling thru it? Watching many Aikido videos (Akikai Style) and it just seems to me that they are muscling thru the techniques. Yet, when I watch O'sensei's later videos before his death, he isn't using the pure physical aspect. How does a Akikai student learn how to apply KI? Can you develop this outside of just doing the waza? Thanks and may God bless!

Ed:)

Aikikai is an organization, not a "style".

[Gorgeous George]

Nice. Very nice.

Alex

Isn't it?
I love the guy.

[graham christian]

Muscling the techniques...?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbxWbehlB98

Enshiro Sensei? Very good, I loved it.

Regards.G.

[ronin67]

Aikikai is an organization, not a "style".

Fair enough. What specific style, does this organization adhere to? Thanks!

Ed

[robin_jet_alt]

It doesn't. That is the point. It is an umbrella organisation encompassing the many diverse styles of many different shihans including Yamaguchi-sensei, Saito-sensei, Nishio-sensei, Kisshomaru-doshu etc. Each of these senseis can be as different from each other as as 2 sensei's from different organisations.

I agree with Alex about Maruyama sensei by the way. I found him to be very impressive.

[Chicko Xerri]

You feel it for yourself when you practice Aikido, regardless of what particular group you train with. Get away from the notion of others, them and styles, there is no aiki in that thinking place. Practice and visualize the feeling that emanates from the basic techniques and you will find the Way to KI feeling for your self through the practice itself.

[ronin67]

You feel it for yourself when you practice Aikido, regardless of what particular group you train with. Get away from the notion of others, them and styles, there is no aiki in that thinking place. Practice and visualize the feeling that emanates from the basic techniques and you will find the Way to KI feeling for your self through the practice itself.

Ki development only goes so far when performing the different waza. Ki is not a mere feeling (anger, sadness, happiness, etc.), it is the application and human projection of energy from the spirit, generated from the hara (one point). The whole issue of perfecting Ki extension through just waza, is limited. Which was recognized by Tohei Sensei. This was the reason why he developed methods outside of waza to develop Ki and to test its applications. It is a energy many people often relate to a feeling, yet regardless in its mechanics it works outside of mere human feelings. Which explains why extending Ki can still be applied regardless of what feelings or emotions you have at the time. Many people in the Aikido realm would like to attach it to a feeling, yet it isn't. Now if you wish to say, "Through extending KI, I have obtained a great feeling of tranquility", that is the feeling resulting from the projection of Ki. A difficult concept to understand sometimes.

May God bless!

Ed

May God bless!

[Chicko Xerri]

Sorry Ed I cant explain. why. I feel that way. Blessings to you also.

[ronin67]

Sorry Ed I cant explain. why. I feel that way. Blessings to you also.

I visited your webpage and watched some of your videos. Some very nice videos and a nice dojo. When was the last time you came to Kamakura, Japan? I apologize for coming across a little self-serving. The whole concept of KI is something that is pondered very deeply in Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido and to be honest it sometimes amazes me how much KI is not taught in other forms of Aikido. I'm still very much a beginner in the extension/application of Ki, but I know from practicing with the Ki Society for a few years, KI comes across to many as a feeling, when it relates more to a projection of energy. We as humans tend to rationalize this energy release as a feeling in many instances. When or if you practice Ki breathing (misogi) you can feel the release of energy leaving your body when you breath-out and you can feel the intake of this energy when breathing in through your nose, to your one point (hara). Becoming one with the universe. Now that is exciting. May God bless you sensei!!!

Ed

[Chicko Xerri]

Thank you Ed I appreciate your Honest manner. Its wonderful that you have a healthy enthusiasm for the Art and the conviction to expressing your understanding, we learn from one an other in this world. I will visit Kamakura in May 2012 before going to Europe. I love it in Kamakura and I feel so at home while visiting. All the best to you and Kind Regards.

[NagaBaba]

Just coureous, how Akikai Aikido practioners learn the concept of KI? How do you learn to extend KI in a technique as compared to muscling thru it? Watching many Aikido videos (Akikai Style) and it just seems to me that they are muscling thru the techniques. Yet, when I watch O'sensei's later videos before his death, he isn't using the pure physical aspect. How does a Akikai student learn how to apply KI? Can you develop this outside of just doing the waza? Thanks and may God bless!

Ed:)
Hi Ed,
We in Aikikai learn KI by illumination (other names are : satori or direct experience of Highest Reality). When extending our KI, we can throw aggressive and violent attacker on the street without actually touching him. This is actual default test requirement for shodan (1 degree black belt)

Can you do it? If not you, can anybody in Ki Aikido style do it? If you can do that, could you present it on video please? So we can see if you are not muscling the technique.

You can also present on video your normal dojo practice, I want to make sure you are not muscling the technique on daily basis.

[RonRagusa]

When extending our KI, we can throw aggressive and violent attacker on the street without actually touching him. This is actual default test requirement for shodan (1 degree black belt)

Hi Szczepan -

Ok, so let me get this straight. One of your test requirements for shodan is to have the person testing go out, somehow get violently attacked on the street and throw the attacker without touching him. Is that about right?

That would make a helluva YouTube clip.

Best,

Ron

[Mark Freeman]

Hi Szczepan -

Ok, so let me get this straight. One of your test requirements for shodan is to have the person testing go out, somehow get violently attacked on the street and throw the attacker without touching him. Is that about right?

That would make a helluva YouTube clip.

Best,

Ron

Hi Ron,

I think he is writing with his tongue firmly in his cheek and not adding the appropriate smiley. I agree, though, it would make a good youtube clip, can't wait.:rolleyes:

regards,

Mark

[RonRagusa]

Hi Ron,

I think he is writing with his tongue firmly in his cheek and not adding the appropriate smiley. I agree, though, it would make a good youtube clip, can't wait.:rolleyes:

regards,

Mark

Hi Mark -

I kind of figured that, but with Szczepan you never can be too sure.

Best,

Ron

[ronin67]

Hi Ed,
We in Aikikai learn KI by illumination (other names are : satori or direct experience of Highest Reality). When extending our KI, we can throw aggressive and violent attacker on the street without actually touching him. This is actual default test requirement for shodan (1 degree black belt)

Can you do it? If not you, can anybody in Ki Aikido style do it? If you can do that, could you present it on video please? So we can see if you are not muscling the technique.

You can also present on video your normal dojo practice, I want to make sure you are not muscling the technique on daily basis.

Now that is truly amazing. I have to see that. Please post a video. So Aikido practitioners under the organization of the Aikikai learn KI through satori (how do you get to this state if KI isn't stressed) and the direct experinece thru the highest reality (which higher reality/thru religious enlightenment or the most realistic street reality)? That is deep. However, I've not seen that in any of the Aikido practices I observed here in Japan, under the Aikikai organization. However, that doesn't mean that it isn't done. So how do you develop a deeper understanding of KI through just waza? That is all I'm asking. I'm just interested in knowing anything that would further enhance my understanding of KI, outside of what I already practice with the KI Society? Thanks for the entertaining answer sir.

May God bless (or that highest reality):) !

Ed:ki:

[NagaBaba]

Hi Szczepan -

Ok, so let me get this straight. One of your test requirements for shodan is to have the person testing go out, somehow get violently attacked on the street and throw the attacker without touching him. Is that about right?

That would make a helluva YouTube clip.

Best,

Ron

Hi Ron,
First of all, discussing about KI in Spiritual part of forum must be some kind of cruel joke. It clearly means that Ed has no idea what spirituality means, even if he sign his post with a lot of God blessing.

Also, Ed, from what he is writing here is deeply convinced, that Ki Aikido is not muscling techniques, while all aikido world happily do it. It is a variation of old pattern “my style is better than your style”. And what are the bases for his statement? Watching YT videos and practice in 1 or 2 aikido dojo. How ridicule it is? It is as ridicule as my post to him.

Of course he understood nothing at all. That’s life. One day 10 years old girl will kick his ass, may be such terrific and scary event will destroy his fantasy about KI Aikido as an effective way to learn self defense.

Or maybe not – and for the rest of his life he will remain convinced that it was only possible because she muscled her technique hahahahahaha :D :D

[ronin67]

Hi Ron,
First of all, discussing about KI in Spiritual part of forum must be some kind of cruel joke. It clearly means that Ed has no idea what spirituality means, even if he sign his post with a lot of God blessing.

Also, Ed, from what he is writing here is deeply convinced, that Ki Aikido is not muscling techniques, while all aikido world happily do it. It is a variation of old pattern "my style is better than your style". And what are the bases for his statement? Watching YT videos and practice in 1 or 2 aikido dojo. How ridicule it is? It is as ridicule as my post to him.

Of course he understood nothing at all. That's life. One day 10 years old girl will kick his ass, may be such terrific and scary event will destroy his fantasy about KI Aikido as an effective way to learn self defense.

Or maybe not -- and for the rest of his life he will remain convinced that it was only possible because she muscled her technique hahahahahaha :D :D

Still waiting for an answer for the PM I sent you. Why the hate towards KI Aikido? I get it, you like making a show in front of everyone. Please respond to my personal message frenchy. Thanks.

May God Bless (yes even you).

Ed

[Gerardo Torres]

Fair enough. What specific style, does this organization adhere to? Thanks!

Ed
I think Robin Boyd answered this question pretty well. I'll add in relation to this and the other thread you started:

I don't think anybody here ‘hates' Ki-Aikido. It might just be that what they see on video, or feel in person, is not very convincing. Tohei was tested (severely -- by aikido standards), and didn't need anything beyond his physical abilities to prove that his aikido ‘worked' (certainly didn't need to defend what he did with words).

Second, this type of thread doesn't help your case. You asked a ‘question', but it's really a loaded question designed to exalt a style while putting down another. Threads like this abound on Aikiweb: Iwama, Tomiki, Ki guys, etc., asking (loaded) questions but really only looking for validation of their own style. Then when you see them move or feel them you find there's nothing utterly superior there, mostly external stylistic differences, all sort of "eh" / "that's it?". Think about it, if any style had a stronghold on ki/kokyu skills, or their waza was truly superior and not just supported by their own ukemi paradigm, people would be flocking to it just like students flocked to Takeda or Ueshiba. But that's not happening isn't it? So being in Tohei's, Tomiki's or Shioda's lineage today guarantees… nothing. Just like being part of the Aikikai umbrella guarantees nothing (good or bad).

If you are really interested in ki/kokyu, as a fellow student I suggest you look past the whole organization/style thing and concentrate on players/exponents. Go out, feel people, both inside and outside your style and inside and outside aikido in general. Perhaps you'll find that some of those in the cutting edge of doing aikido with ki/kokyu are within the Aikikai umbrella. Perhaps you'll find that most aikido today regardless of ‘style' is lacking in some fundamentals. Perhaps a karate guy can pull the best kotegaeshi (with ki/kokyu) that you've felt! The whole ‘hate' accusation reeks of fanboy-ism (as in "y u hatin' on the PS3/Xbox?"). It's better to be pragmatic as that might lead you to the best training and learning.

[Janet Rosen]

...being in Tohei's, Tomiki's or Shioda's lineage today guarantees… nothing. Just like being part of the Aikikai umbrella guarantees nothing (good or bad)...
If you are really interested in ki/kokyu, as a fellow student I suggest you look past the whole organization/style thing and concentrate on players/exponents. Go out, feel people, both inside and outside your style and inside and outside aikido in general.... It's better to be pragmatic as that might lead you to the best training and learning.

Great points!

[ronin67]

I think Robin Boyd answered this question pretty well. I'll add in relation to this and the other thread you started:

I don't think anybody here ‘hates' Ki-Aikido. It might just be that what they see on video, or feel in person, is not very convincing. Tohei was tested (severely -- by aikido standards), and didn't need anything beyond his physical abilities to prove that his aikido ‘worked' (certainly didn't need to defend what he did with words).

Second, this type of thread doesn't help your case. You asked a ‘question', but it's really a loaded question designed to exalt a style while putting down another. Threads like this abound on Aikiweb: Iwama, Tomiki, Ki guys, etc., asking (loaded) questions but really only looking for validation of their own style. Then when you see them move or feel them you find there's nothing utterly superior there, mostly external stylistic differences, all sort of "eh" / "that's it?". Think about it, if any style had a stronghold on ki/kokyu skills, or their waza was truly superior and not just supported by their own ukemi paradigm, people would be flocking to it just like students flocked to Takeda or Ueshiba. But that's not happening isn't it? So being in Tohei's, Tomiki's or Shioda's lineage today guarantees… nothing. Just like being part of the Aikikai umbrella guarantees nothing (good or bad).

If you are really interested in ki/kokyu, as a fellow student I suggest you look past the whole organization/style thing and concentrate on players/exponents. Go out, feel people, both inside and outside your style and inside and outside aikido in general. Perhaps you'll find that some of those in the cutting edge of doing aikido with ki/kokyu are within the Aikikai umbrella. Perhaps you'll find that most aikido today regardless of ‘style' is lacking in some fundamentals. Perhaps a karate guy can pull the best kotegaeshi (with ki/kokyu) that you've felt! The whole ‘hate' accusation reeks of fanboy-ism (as in "y u hatin' on the PS3/Xbox?"). It's better to be pragmatic as that might lead you to the best training and learning.

Some great points sir. Again, my intent was not to say KI Aikido is better than other styles. I just was wondering how other Styles (Aikikai in General) further enhance and develop KI outside of waza. To me it seems with some of the aggressive/uncalled for responses (Szczepan Janczuk in particular/although doing a bit or research from his 900+ posts he has a history of making fun of KI Aikido and being a smart ass in general), to be a sensitive area for some members under the Aikikai umbrella. Can someone give me a honest answer on the topic I started? I'm always interested in learning different methods of developing KI to make my waza more effective. Is there anything that the Aikikai does different that can help me progress even more? That is all I'm asking.

May God bless.

Ed

[Carsten Möllering]

... I just was wondering how other Styles (Aikikai in General) further enhance and develop KI outside of waza. ...
"We" (Christian Tissier shihan / Endo Seishiro shihan; you will find examples of their/our aikido on youtube.) try to find "ki" and develop our "ki" and the understanding of it by practicing waza.

In very short terms:
If the posture of the body is "correct" ki will flow. If it is not good, there will be blockades an ki will not flow. So if you work on posture and movements you will get your ki flowing. If you get an understanding of what ist done this way and practice in this way, you will be able to "accumulat" and to concentrate your "ki". And you will learn to "direct" or "send" your ki willingly. Within your body. And you will be able to "extend" your ki.
Shorter again: Waza are ki exercises.

We seldom speak about "ki". Endo shihan more than Tissier shihan. But we "practice it".

In consequence (I think) our practice is much more "bodily" than I it seems to be in what I know as Ki-aikido.

Does this help a little bit?

Please be aware: This is not aikikai in general! This is just two teachers under this umbrella. And just my understanding of what they teach.

[Tim Ruijs]

Not really in the Aikikai myself anymore, but have been for 15 odd years or so.
I have never done specific techniques to enhance KI. Like Carsten says it is trained/polished within the techniques. This is I think where O Sensei and Tohei differed in opinion. Ueshiba said KI is integral part of Aikido, one should not (try to) separate it. Tohei's approach was to have some practise focused on KI development in order to improve your techniques.
My teacher always says there is nothing cosmic about Aikido, just practise, practise and practise, but off course properly.

I tend to interpret the question like:
how do Aikikai students learn about kino nagare?
how do Aikikai students learn about ma ai?
how do Aikikai students learn about kimusubi?
how do Aikikai students learn about shi sei?
....
There is no emphasis on either aspect, at least in my experience.

[JohnDavis]

[QUOTE=Alex Megann;291339]Hi Ed,

My only time watching a ki aikido class (just one sample, so it is probably not representative) was disappointing - after all the ki exercises in the first part of the class I was expecting superior aikido, but what I did see was surprisingly scrappy and looked pretty ineffective. However, I have been in a couple of classes with Koretoshi Maruyama Sensei (ex-Ki Society), and found him deeply impressive, As I said, there is a lot of variation wherever you go.

You were at a class or a practice session and it sounds like there were a lot of beginners and low ranking students. If you want to see good demonstrations of Ki-Aikido, keep in contact with the Ki Society and watch for upcoming Taigi exhibitions. There you will see masterful aikido. Also any seminars conducted by Kashiwaya Koichi Sensei. He does a demonstration that will knock your tabi off. :)

[Alex Megann]

You were at a class or a practice session and it sounds like there were a lot of beginners and low ranking students. If you want to see good demonstrations of Ki-Aikido, keep in contact with the Ki Society and watch for upcoming Taigi exhibitions. There you will see masterful aikido. Also any seminars conducted by Kashiwaya Koichi Sensei. He does a demonstration that will knock your tabi off. :)

Hi John,

I have looked up Kashiwaya Sensei as well as Yoshigasaki Sensei on YouTube, and I believe both are both highly respected within the Ki Aikido world.

I accept the obvious point that I need to encounter anyone on the tatami to get a full appreciation of what they do. However, although both appear very skilful, I have to echo Carsten Mollering's statement on another current thread: "it is fundamentally different from what I know as aikido".

Regards,

Alex

[phitruong]

I'm always interested in learning different methods of developing KI to make my waza more effective. Is there anything that the Aikikai does different that can help me progress even more? That is all I'm asking.

Ed

don't know. haven't figure out what folks defined as ki/chi/khi/.... in asia, those things usually associated with gas, as in, by product of bean and cabbage (kimchi - pickled chi/ki with hot chili peppers (ooohhhh yyaaaa) - worked pretty well too). so here i am scratching my head and wondering what in the god name are you western folks talking about developing!!??? you just eat the stuffs and wait for a few hours and voila! c'est la vie! :)

[lbb]

don't know. haven't figure out what folks defined as ki/chi/khi/.... in asia, those things usually associated with gas, as in, by product of bean and cabbage (kimchi - pickled chi/ki with hot chili peppers (ooohhhh yyaaaa) - worked pretty well too). so here i am scratching my head and wondering what in the god name are you western folks talking about developing!!??? you just eat the stuffs and wait for a few hours and voila! c'est la vie! :)

By now you should have figured out that in the west, "ki" is the proverbial Emperor's Suit of Clothes. It is something I have and that you don't, something that makes me superior to you. It is proof by definition. Ki, and the concern over it, and the worshipful belief in it, and the hook-line-and-sinker swallowing of claims about it, probably do more harm to martial arts practice in the West than anything else. Mind you, there may be some thing called "ki" that is more than the end product of a bowl of beans...but if so, it's very much being overshadowed by the foolishness committed in its name.

[DH]

By now you should have figured out that in the west, "ki" is the proverbial Emperor's Suit of Clothes. It is something I have and that you don't, something that makes me superior to you. It is proof by definition. Ki, and the concern over it, and the worshipful belief in it, and the hook-line-and-sinker swallowing of claims about it, probably do more harm to martial arts practice in the West than anything else. Mind you, there may be some thing called "ki" that is more than the end product of a bowl of beans...but if so, it's very much being overshadowed by the foolishness committed in its name.
Hmm...Yet in Asian martial arts, it is rarely in dispute after hands on. Everyone knows then, who has it and who is full of it.
Why is that?
Ki was measured as strength and aiki as control. Is it a coincidence that the modern people who want to make it something spiritual have nothing worth seeing in person? They cannot deal with real stress, stop no one with decent power, and essentially have shamed the name of Ki power. Wherever, whenever, I hear "Ki" mentioned by Westerners... I expect to see and feel MAers with nothing to show for their beliefs. And I have never once been disappointed.

....overshadowed by the foolishness committed in its name
It is the "gentle people" in aikido and Taiji who are committing an affront to the idea of ki, the effective use of ki (really aiki) and ruining the most effective model the Asian arts have.

Again, no one cares if these gentle folk (who can't really pull of anything effective) want to dress up and play Samurai and run around. Who cares. I only care when these gentle folks then overstep their bounds and demand to be counted as equally effective to those who have and know what ki and aiki is and moreover test themselves in stressful environments.
What happened to intellectual honesty?
I know plenty of people who do not do aikido for martial effectiveness and could care less. What's wrong with just stating that?

The ki wars demonstrated in the past (and it was echoed in the westerners training in Chinese arts) that those arguing for ki had nothing in person. The new guys do! And just like Ueshiba and Takeda and everyone else who could actually walk their talk, they are putting their asses on the line...in public to show just that.
It is very Asian
It has an established history in the arts
It is honorable
It is ballsy
It is irrefutable...in person where it counts.
Others remain all talk and are easily offended for being called on it. I say it was them who contributed to harming the reputation of aikido and worse aiki in aikido as well as the true power and quality of Taiji.

I don't really worry about the ner do wells in Aikido, as they and their efforts are going to be phased out over time. They will increasingly avoid those training aiki, for the simple fact that, face to face, there simply is nothing they can do to stop anyone who actually has aiki.
This new movement, of putting ki and aiki back into aikido, is the best thing that has ever happened to aikido in the modern era. It's drawing many people together to explore aiki, now in a truly effective way. As eleven Shihans have told me to my face. "This is what I joined aikido to find". I think it's worth celebrating.
Dan

[Robert Cowham]

I was interested when I first read the article:

http://www.guillaumeerard.com/en/aikido/interviews/christian-tissier.html

van Bel: About natural principles, we often hear about Ki, the energy flow. You don't speak much about it though...

Christian Tissier: No I don't. The reason is that it is a very confusing notion. I have seen quite a bit in Aikido, I have met quite a few Senseis and I must say that the ones who speak of it the most are often the ones who have the poorest technique. Of course, this is not true for everybody but Ki is not tangible. Ki is within us. There is Ki everywhere, either we know how to use it or we don't. The fundamental issue with Ki is its flow. In terms of Aikido vocabulary, we have Ki and Kokyu, which is the vehicle for Ki. The translation of Kokyu is "breathing" but to be more accurate, in reality, Kokyu is the exchange between the two.

The bottom line is that if you practice with your stiff shoulders up to your ears, the Ki won't flow, any acupuncture practitioner will tell you. As a consequence, until the technique is perfect, there will be no Ki, no natural flow. To me, people who really have Ki don't feel it because everything happens naturally within them.

[robin_jet_alt]

Thanks for posting this. I really enjoyed reading this interview. It sounds like he is a very well grounded individual.

[HL1978]

I was interested when I first read the article:

http://www.guillaumeerard.com/en/aikido/interviews/christian-tissier.html

That quote is rather telling actually, but that particular instructor has been critiqued on here before.

[Gerardo Torres]

Some great points sir. Again, my intent was not to say KI Aikido is better than other styles. I just was wondering how other Styles (Aikikai in General) further enhance and develop KI outside of waza. To me it seems with some of the aggressive/uncalled for responses (Szczepan Janczuk in particular/although doing a bit or research from his 900+ posts he has a history of making fun of KI Aikido and being a smart ass in general), to be a sensitive area for some members under the Aikikai umbrella. Can someone give me a honest answer on the topic I started? I'm always interested in learning different methods of developing KI to make my waza more effective. Is there anything that the Aikikai does different that can help me progress even more? That is all I'm asking.

May God bless.

Ed
Ed,

I am sorry that I thought your thread was one of those "style vs. style" threads.

The Aikikai is too diverse and organization to give a definite answer to your question. Where you get your ki training (or not) is highly dependent on which shihan or shihan (plural) lead a particular Aikikai group. There's a lot of freedom and diversity within the Aikikai. Sometimes this freedom translates into an Aikikai group taking a dismissive stance against all things "ki" as "magical" or "fairy" non-sense stuff, and in the process become technique-oriented (the membership's reaction to anything "ki" makes it apparent where they belong -- it's just learned group behavior). Some groups within the Aikikai are more open and don't stop at anything when it comes to getting a particular skill-set, and it's common to see some of these groups converge and even seek outside (non-aikido) help if necessary. I'm more partial to the latter group kind, as I don't care where the information comes from as long as it's practical and compatible with Ueshiba's art. I think one should not to limit oneself to any organizational tenets -- "the 4 (or 5) principles", "it's all in the techniques", etc. One of my mottos is "use organizations, don't let them use me." :) ;)

So there you have it (as far as ki training in the Aikikai): find an Aikikai shihan or teacher who's into this sort of training (some are, some aren't), and better yet who's open to external resources and influence.

[kewms]

So there you have it (as far as ki training in the Aikikai): find an Aikikai shihan or teacher who's into this sort of training (some are, some aren't), and better yet who's open to external resources and influence.

There are also vast differences within Aikikai in the amount of control a particular shihan exerts over the dojos under his umbrella, particularly with regard to external resources. Some frown on students even visiting Aikikai dojos linked to a different shihan, others have students who openly host non-Aikido events.

In this context, it's worth noting that most of Ueshiba Sensei's uchi deshi studied other arts, generally with his active encouragement.

Katherine

[Rubber Man]

Dear Ed,

ive trained for a fair few years with what i would describe as a harder style aikido, i love it its very fun energetic and good excersize.

as ive come to university ive trained with Alex who replied earlier who teaches under the aikikai 'umbrella' hehe his style is of the softer approach im of the opinion this style is of the essence of 'ki' as it relies on not using any muscle strength at all. there is never really a mention of ki but then again i dont really think there needs to be. its impossible to label something that varies so much person to person.

within aikido i think its important to think of ki not as some mystical power that enables you to hadouken the hell out of your opponant, but as the ability to control them whilst being 100 percent in control of yourself and not giving in the the temptation to combat their momentum.

yea i know this concept is something ive tried to get away without doing in the past but ive started to see the importance of this now im on the verge of shodan and hopfully one day ill get it! until then i guess its back to wondering how the hell does he do that!

p.s. im always a bit worried by the ki demonstrations showing people putting their hand a few inches from someones face as they run in and make them fall over, a drunk guy in a bar is probobally struggling to see you let alone the hand and pummel straight through you! ill keep working on my tencan :P

i must point out im not trying to claim im correct im merely sharing my thoughts on the matter and id love to discuss them with you guys.

yours in Aikido

Dan