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Mike Sigman
08-06-2011, 02:46 PM
These two lines are particularly flawed.
"keep the elbows and forearms in that line from the waist in order to maximize the power flow
Actually, the strength is transmitted through the upper part of the forearm."'
[snip oblique shot]

While looking at this we can also examine how it ties in with the all too common specialty of the taiji one-legged-army and the back and forth movement and the erroneous ideas expressed in this dantien, elbow, and hand in a single line.
Here is another Chen Taiji Master class teacher:
"Forward and backward movement do not belong to Chen style. One small wrong movement and the posture is lost. At this time it is up to the spiral of the legs. The spiral of the leg uses on shun and one ni. The power of the hand and of the elbow is also forbidden to be double heavy (both expressing the same power)
And in the same passage:
At this time you must face forward, directly toward the opponent. The shoulder, elbow and hand, must use yin and yang. (expressing opposite power)

There is more to truly explain how this effect is so profound when force is applied to you, but I will just say that the legs, waist, hara, elbow and hand are moving in opposing spirals (always the union of opposites) and never in a line from dantien elbow to hand. That is low level understanding and Ueshiba didn't move that way either.

Morihei Ueshiba's own terminology on movement (now properly translated):
"Face your enemy and move with inside and outside spirals on opposite sides of the body
"The ways of stepping with the feet are outside-spirals and inside-spirals. This is taught in practice."
One of the difficulties in analysing what Ueshiba actually did for his training and application lies with the fact that he was aware/versed in the old Chinese classics, many of which have to do with vague descriptions of the things involved. In other words, one of the things that has to be looked at is whether the words match the original intent, when looking at Ueshiba's writings.

Dan's example of a Chen-style maxim is an example to consider: does the saying really discuss what Dan thinks it does and therefore prohibit forward and backward movement (there is an adjunctive saying about not going up or down, too)? Not really. This is where Shu Ha Ri comes in and the Chinese have more or less the same concept of Obvious, Hidden, and Mysterious. Not to belittle Dan, my point is that it's easy to use old sayings (as Ueshiba did), but the question is "does this really apply as originally meant?".

It turns out that even Okinawan karate (and most other arts, too) all refer to spiralings along the lines of the Ueshiba quote above. Are these the same kinds of spiraling used in the Chen-style Taijiquan? No, although there is a legitimate debate that at one time in the precursor arts of karate (and many other martial-arts) the same type of winding/spiraling was used and simply got lost over time. Because Ueshiba mentions the classical adage about spiraling doesn't necessarily mean that he thought of it and or did it in any way like the Chen-styles Reeling-Silk-Jin.

So the question is really more along the lines of "what did Ueshiba do, when and *how* did he do it, and where did he learn it?" There are related questions to be asked about what Tohei, Shioda, and others knew, when and how did they did it, where they learned it, and so on.

In my personal view there are some things that Ueshiba does (in terms of body movement) that are not quite the same as seen in Tohei, Shioda, any Daito Ryu guys on videos that I've seen, and so on. Over the years I've watched all the videos of Ueshiba (and many others, too, of course) and my impression is that Ueshiba actually used his dantien somewhat more than you'd think at first glance, but he used it in relation to pretty linear jin, not the winding jin. Among a number of reasons I could list, let me point out a couple:

There is no indication of winding training in any drill done by Ueshiba.

The winding jin doesn't work in closely held arms and a high stance. There is an old saying "qi does not go through a bent joing" and in this case they're talking about the aspect of qi that I refer to as "suit" as a way of differentiating what it is.

If someone makes a throw and ends up with one arm up and one arm down, one leg forward and one leg back, that does not mean that they are using "spiraling" power, since that type of posture is common and traditional through many martial arts. I had an Aikido teacher who did the same thing, BTW, and he had no internal-strength skills whatsoever; hence, it indicates not much.

One of the real questions I've had over the years is just what Ueshiba knew. I feel like I have a better grasp after years of reading and watching videos, but it's still difficult to speak with absolute surety in many cases. Does he use "reeling silk" though? Pretty definitely not, so Chen's Taiji is not a good comparison for that reason. Yang's Taiji that uses "Pulling Silk" is probably a much better comparison (of course they also claim to use "reeling", but they don't actually).

2 cents in order to start a rousing discussion. Disagree'ers please start with something like "I think you're wrong because...." as opposed to ad hominems, character assassination, and so forth. ;)

Mike Sigman

SeiserL
08-06-2011, 04:47 PM
I was taught that there were no straight line in Aikido and that everything was a circle/spiral.

1-cent.

Mike Sigman
08-06-2011, 04:58 PM
I was taught that there were no straight line in Aikido and that everything was a circle/spiral.

1-cent.Lynn, you're talking about application/techniques. I'm talking about basic movement within and prior to the consideration of application/techniques.

The whole point of movement like "reeling silk" is to train linear jin to all points within a movement. There are 4 basic directions of jin: Up, Down, Away from the body, Toward the body. What "winding" or "reeling silk" practice is supposed to do is imbue the linear jin infinitely throughout a movement, primarily. Secondarily it is used as one of the supplements to power generation, but there's more to that than is commonly known.

FWIW

Mike Sigman

JW
08-06-2011, 06:14 PM
I would love to see discussion regarding analysis of Ueshiba's movement, in relation to the concepts here. I may have something to add/ask about that, but first, there is one other thing I want to say besides that:

If we believe in aikido as something we make our own, something that is a path to travel rather than a place, then we could in a sense go beyond what O-sensei did as long as we are on the same path. Thus someone could do things a bit differently than Ueshiba, but still be working to further the same cause that he worked on. (One would have to defend that they are indeed working on the same cause, but that is a discussion on its own.)

In other words the cause defines "aikido" rather than the tools that one uses. So I am always asking myself, when I learn about something new, is this something that O-sensei was after? Is a method to continuously imbue every aspect of one's movement with the 'power' of heaven and earth relevant to aikido, even if Ueshiba himself had no teacher for that? If so, then that can be part of my aikido. (Anyway without a detailed compare/contrast there is no reason I would say definitively that Ueshiba did not learn a particular something. Just speaking generally.)

My point is to support the idea that seemingly foreign Chinese concepts are directly relevant to aikido as an art. I don't think O-sensei laid out something exclusive for us-- inclusion is the point. If someone can say I am right AND that O-sensei knew and practiced this kind of spiralling, then great that's even better!

Mike Sigman
08-06-2011, 06:25 PM
My point is to support the idea that seemingly foreign Chinese concepts are directly relevant to aikido as an art. I don't think O-sensei laid out something exclusive for us-- inclusion is the point. If someone can say I am right AND that O-sensei knew and practiced this kind of spiralling, then great that's even better!

What's foreign about "Chinese concepts" to the Japanese? The weapons, swords, hair-styles, calligraphy (and kanji), the Kojiki is written in Chinese, the medical system of qi/ki, Hara/Dantien, ki and qi, manufacturing methods, food preferences, clothing trends, and many so-on's, all came from China. The "China had nothing to do with us" trend came in the late 1800's and most westerner martial-artists have been brain-washed into only seeing Japan and not Asian history as a whole. If you'll remember, just a few years ago, one of the current "experts" on Chinese martial-arts knew nothing about CMA's and was unsure that there were such things as "internal power" outside of Japan.

If you read Ueshiba's douka and some other writings, he justified Aikido in terms of the classical Chinese sayings and admonitions. He spoke of "intent", "ki", "hara", and so on. "Aiki" in kanji is easily understood by most proficient martial-artists in China. Discussion needs to avoid the China-Japan frictions and understand that there was a truly deep discussion about what is the most refined approach to martial-arts and the discussion was echoed around Asia and the Pacific Rim. Holding onto the "Japan" and "Aikido is unique" paradigms is fairly provincial in the light of all that has gone on in the last number of many centuries.

FWIW

Mike Sigman

Mike Sigman
08-06-2011, 09:59 PM
It's a curious concept, this status of "expert"--often self-designated, or self-aggrandized on the basis knowing something when most other people in a discussion are very new to the concepts or traditions being discussed, or assumed simply because the "expert" talks so much. Someone like that might write something like this:

http://http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=273918&postcount=6 Can't find the page, Tom. Got a better URL?



Tell me this, Mike. The pao chui "Cannon Fist" solo form is regarded as the "fighting" form of Chen taijiquan, emphasizing fajin, angles and footwork not found in the Yi Lu (first road) form. Would someone who never learned pao chui be appropriately regarded as an expert on Chen taijiquan? Er, Pao Chui is not considered a "fighting form". It's the second routine, designed to train the more advanced trait of "body follows hands". I don't know who you're talking to as "never learned pao chui". Who are you talking about? Certainly not me.

Mike Sigman
P,S. Quit making posts and then deleting them in order to make a statement and not take responsibility.

Rupert Atkinson
08-06-2011, 10:42 PM
I was taught that there were no straight line in Aikido and that everything was a circle/spiral.

1-cent.

I was taught the same but have realised the opposite.
2c

graham christian
08-06-2011, 11:24 PM
I was taught that there were no straight line in Aikido and that everything was a circle/spiral.

1-cent.

I teach that there are all the natural pathways of energy. Thus there are straight lines, circles and spirals.

Regards.G.

Thomas Campbell
08-07-2011, 12:06 AM
Can't find the page, Tom. Got a better URL?

Er, Pao Chui is not considered a "fighting form". It's the second routine, designed to train the more advanced trait of "body follows hands". I don't know who you're talking to as "never learned pao chui". Who are you talking about? Certainly not me.

Mike Sigman
P,S. Quit making posts and then deleting them in order to make a statement and not take responsibility.

No . . . looks like the link is broken, Mike. That's a shame.

I'm not training Chen taijiquan. I'd been told by a number of Chen teachers that they regarded Pao Chui (Er Lu) as a "fighting form," building on the first routine Yi Lu but training both applications and attributes closer to the way the art would be used in combat. One of those teachers has not yet learned Pao Chui, though he talks quite a bit about Chen taijiquan.

Tom Campbell

P.S. Quit telling people whether they can delete a post they've written, whether for editing, rewriting or simply because they decided they don't want it up there. Last I recall this is Jun's forum, and I'll gladly accept his direction in that regard. I take responsibility for what I write here. If you don't like what I write, apologies in advance for any stress or loss of naptime it may cause you.

danj
08-07-2011, 04:30 AM
I was taught the same but have realised the opposite.
2c

yes I agree, but have come back to the spirals again in a manner of speaking, that spirals are the combination of linear possibilities of ground path externally and internally the preloading and releasing of the muscle tendon complex.
0.0208 AUD ;)

ewolput
08-07-2011, 07:39 AM
The basic concept in our dojo (basically a Tomiki dojo) is to create a a spherical balloon with your body. When the attack is coming you don't retreat but you absorb and turn. So you have to to bring the body frame backward and turn without bending or jumping away from the action. To apply a waza you can use a direct action or turn and use a rotational action. This method has a positive effect on our (tanto) randori. The attack in tanto randori is linear and is not interupted, but absorbed in the sperical balloon, the attacker has the feeling he can strike you but when the moment of impact is there, the bodyframe is gone without moving the body. The waza which we use looks very linear but has a flavor of a spiral. Shouldering, bending forward to block and all those muscular actions has to be avoid to create a powerful waza - in competition this is "ippon". Of course every match has to be done and maybe the opponent is also using similar methods.
In a paper of prof Shishida of the Waseda University and also a researcher on Ueshiba's prewar aikido, he wrote something about Ueshiba confronting powerfull judoka. Ueshiba never allowed those judoka to grasp him fully.
I tried to describe a simple action, but words cannot express the feeling about attacking and suddenly finding out the emptyness and the waza which bring you down without muscular arm/shoulderpower.

Just our way of training

Eddy

Thomas Campbell
08-07-2011, 10:43 AM
yes I agree, but have come back to the spirals again in a manner of speaking, that spirals are the combination of linear possibilities of ground path externally and internally the preloading and releasing of the muscle tendon complex.
0.0208 AUD ;)

Daniel--

For you, what does this statement translate into in terms of practical training?

For example, a circle is a "combination of linear possibilities" of infinitely small linear segments. It can be helpful in training to visualize return or deflection of a force in terms of a circle.

Also, with respect to the "preloading and releasing of the muscle tendon complex," to what extent is the fascial and connective tissue beyond the tendons involved with the "preloading and release" that you write of?

Thanks.

DH
08-07-2011, 10:48 AM
.... in order to start a rousing discussion. Disagree'ers please start with something like "I think you're wrong because...." as opposed to ad hominems, character assassination, and so forth. ;)
Mike Sigman
There is nothing to debate. You've presented no credible argument to refute the points in the text. Instead you attacked the points by casting doubts on the presenter's presumed lack of understanding of the text instead of offering any rebuttal of the text.. Once again surreptitiously attacking the poster while asking others not to attack you. ;)
Did you really think you were fooling anyone?

Anyway, then, you went on to tell us that
1. The Yang family arts don't understand their own arts energy,
2. Aikido-ka don't understand Ueshiba,
3. Aikido-ka who also train taiji don't understand either,
4. Daito ryu people who also study taiji don't understand either
5. Karate people who study both arts and Daito ryu don't understand their own arts.
6.And here....only you understand spiral energy.

Try making an argument.
With your counter, you've taken on the role of claiming complete understanding of Karate, Aikido, Daito ryu and two styles of Taiji in order to debate their theory.
I have read nothing of substance from you to discuss here, other than you making yet another bid to claim a superior understanding witthout actually doing so. :rolleyes:
Dan

.

Janet Rosen
08-07-2011, 10:51 AM
Interesting thread...a couple of random thoughts...

Eddy, I think you expressed yourself very well and while I have no experience visiting Tomiki dojos, very much agree with the essence of what you describe: that tenkan or turning is not a retreat or backward movement, but essentially a different form of entry.

In terms of linear/spiral...in waza at least, which I understand is NOT how Mike the OP is discussing spirals....I am reminded of how I make circles when drafting a circular skirt pattern: from a point, draw a straight line as many inches as I need. From the same point, draw a straight line at a 90 degree angle to the first one, same number of inches long. Make the third line halfway in between them. Continue making straight lines, ever closer to each other, until there are about a dozen of them. Connect the endpoints of the straight lines: a lovely half circle.
In waza to me this relates to the fact that a seemingly arced cut results from a straight cut done while the body turns.

Mike, could you possibly provide a video link to one of the tai chi vids that you think DOES show spirals? Might be helpful for folks to see which does/not.

ewolput
08-07-2011, 11:51 AM
Spiral movement is aikido is according to many a major element in performing well your waza. If we see in someone other his garden we can find similar ideas.
Alexander technique for Tennis :
The Key to Power: Spiral Movement
Spiral movement is the secret to accessing enormous untapped power in your strokes. More specifically, two spiral movements, one done in the preparation phase of the stroke and the other done in the forward swing of the stroke, are the key.
Spiral movement is defined as a three-dimensional curve in space around a central axis. A spiral elongates as it turns so it has a built-in expansive quality to it. Spiral movement is a type of movement we naturally and frequently perform throughout the day.
For example, when our hand reaches for a door handle or to shake another's hand we naturally make a spiral movement with our body and the entire torso rotates around our spine. Another example is the spiral movement of our body when we roll over on the floor or in bed. Walking and running are dominated by spiral movements. Not only do you see this spiral movement in our actions, but also in the body itself. Most of our bones are curved and many of our muscles spiral around our body.

Of course this is not martial art but it is interesting to read and try to understand.
http://tenniswithouttension.com/article2.html

BTW we are not fighting with rackets:D

Eddy

sakumeikan
08-07-2011, 12:13 PM
Lynn, you're talking about application/techniques. I'm talking about basic movement within and prior to the consideration of application/techniques.

The whole point of movement like "reeling silk" is to train linear jin to all points within a movement. There are 4 basic directions of jin: Up, Down, Away from the body, Toward the body. What "winding" or "reeling silk" practice is supposed to do is imbue the linear jin infinitely throughout a movement, primarily. Secondarily it is used as one of the supplements to power generation, but there's more to that than is commonly known.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
Dear Mike,
One of the problems I have when I read this type of blog is the vocabulary used .What I mean is that in some cases the 'vocabulary 'is Chinese related terms.Now as an aikidoka I can use the general Japanese terminology to discuss issues and concepts.
The fact that you rarely if ever state what eg reeling silk , jin is in
terms that I can relate to, is the problem for me.
With no pun intended you might as well be talking Chinese .
Cheers, Joe.

sakumeikan
08-07-2011, 12:27 PM
There is nothing to debate. You've presented no credible argument to refute the points in the text. Instead you attacked the points by casting doubts on the presenter's presumed lack of understanding of the text instead of offering any rebuttal of the text.. Once again surreptitiously attacking the poster while asking others not to attack you. ;)
Did you really think you were fooling anyone?

Anyway, then, you went on to tell us that
1. The Yang family arts don't understand their own arts energy,
2. Aikido-ka don't understand Ueshiba,
3. Aikido-ka who also train taiji don't understand either,
4. Daito ryu people who also study taiji don't understand either
5. Karate people who study both arts and Daito ryu don't understand their own arts.
6.And here....only you understand spiral energy.

Try making an argument.
With your counter, you've taken on the role of claiming complete understanding of Karate, Aikido, Daito ryu and two styles of Taiji in order to debate their theory.
I have read nothing of substance from you to discuss here, other than you making yet another bid to claim a superior understanding witthout actually doing so. :rolleyes:
Dan

.
Dear Dan,
Do I detect a bit of animosity in your blog?
Joe.

Erick Mead
08-07-2011, 12:42 PM
This kind:

http://www.aikiweb.com/gallery_data/526/Spherical_Shear_stress_color.jpg

And also, this kind:

http://www.aikiweb.com/gallery_data/526/lissajous2.JPG

dps
08-07-2011, 12:54 PM
Although from a Chinese martial artisist this article explains (in plain English ) a spiraling motion created by the knees and directed to rotate the torso ( dantien ) by the ball joints on top of the femurs ( kua ).

" Kua is the joint responsible for transmission of power. The mistaken notion of dantian acting as the transmission should be amended, to recognize the primary role of kua. The dantian, ( in Tai Chi functional terms, not qigong usage), is defined as the area between the kua and the arm pit. This is one big ball. When this area turns you wont see the kua turn. On surface, you only see the area from kua to arm pit turn. Therefor many people practice shoulder movement, turning dantian from the top. We must emphasize turning of the dantian from the bottom.

" The critical element is the action of upper body in relation with lower body. The trunk must be set in a fixed position and cannot move independently. It can only rotate, or adjust to the action of the legs. Action of the legs must be on the knees. When the knee moves, energy is propelled both ways. One portion goes to the feet right through the ground, the other portion into the kua in directing the trunk. That is the proper action. "

http://internalartsia.wordpress.com/2006/07/20/function-and-usage-of-the-kua/

dps

Aikibu
08-07-2011, 01:55 PM
Funny almost every Martial Art I've practiced or experienced emphasizes "spiral" movement as a source of "power" and if there is a question about it's more along the lines of the dilution of experience as to how and why "spiral" equates to power in your practice. That the only issue I see.

Sorry to answer a question with a question but why would anyone think Aikido doesn't have spiraling power other there are just not that many folks around these days who understand it, express it in their practice, and are articulate enough to teach it? :)

William Hazen

DH
08-07-2011, 03:16 PM
Dear Dan,
Do I detect a bit of animosity in your blog?
Joe.
Animosity? No, accuracy, yes.
Read what he wrote.
Some people are pontificating about things they have only read about and cannot really do or understand. Others claim (and are fooling quite a few people) a deeper understanding that their movement just does not support.
In the end actual skills, actually do matter. So I am very relucted to waste my time debating internet personalities who have never delivered with real skills demonstrated across the board under pressure. It's all 'internal" and "aiki"... theory, and words are all they've got and what they count on. It's a waste of my time.

In person, it's surprising how many theories don't pan out so well and also how it has a pronounced tendency to forge friendships instead of animosity.
Dan

stan baker
08-07-2011, 04:05 PM
Hi William
Modern Aikido has external spiraling but is lacking in understanding of
internal whole body spiraling. You can feel the difference instantly.

stan

danj
08-07-2011, 09:03 PM
hi Thomas thanks for the feedback..thoughts below
Daniel--

For you, what does this statement translate into in terms of practical training?

I think for me as a deductive kind of person it gives confidence to the traditions of the art, a viewpoint to reinterpret what I have been doing and perhaps a way to sort the wheat from the chaff. Its helped enormously in being able to critically evaluate the kata of aikido (as nage and uke), ki testing from my early days and all of a sudden be able to stop something like nikkyo effortlessly from seniors was an eye opener that IS and similar approaches have got something going on

For example, a circle is a "combination of linear possibilities" of infinitely small linear segments. It can be helpful in training to visualize return or deflection of a force in terms of a circle.

Yeah I think i'd agree with that, though what i am personally doing is looking mostly at static stuff for now so mostly the first segment and hopefully can generalise from there as to what is best way to move etc..

Also, with respect to the "preloading and releasing of the muscle tendon complex," to what extent is the fascial and connective tissue beyond the tendons involved with the "preloading and release" that you write of?

From what I understand of fascia simplistically as covers over the muscles and tendons they could be considered as a passive/ active 'skin suit' that improves the efficiency of muscles/tendons and maybe make a contribution in their own right. For now I am happy to bundle them all into the same basket to reduce variables which can get in the way of a pretty basic understanding. Mind you judging form conversations, others (probably you?) are considerably further down this road so I just tend to butt out a bit

dan

Mike Sigman
08-07-2011, 09:17 PM
There is nothing to debate. You've presented no credible argument to refute the points in the text. Instead you attacked the points by casting doubts on the presenter's presumed lack of understanding of the text instead of offering any rebuttal of the text.. Once again surreptitiously attacking the poster while asking others not to attack you. ;)
Did you really think you were fooling anyone?

Anyway, then, you went on to tell us that
1. The Yang family arts don't understand their own arts energy,
2. Aikido-ka don't understand Ueshiba,
3. Aikido-ka who also train taiji don't understand either,
4. Daito ryu people who also study taiji don't understand either
5. Karate people who study both arts and Daito ryu don't understand their own arts.
6.And here....only you understand spiral energy.

Try making an argument.
With your counter, you've taken on the role of claiming complete understanding of Karate, Aikido, Daito ryu and two styles of Taiji in order to debate their theory.
I have read nothing of substance from you to discuss here, other than you making yet another bid to claim a superior understanding witthout actually doing so. :rolleyes:
Dan

.

Dan, I'm not claiming anything that's not backed up and supported by classical literature and many experts. You've made up some "system" while at the same time cobbling in buzzwords from all over the place.

You know it. I know it. You know I know it. Desperate attempts to tear down my character and reputation only show the sort of person you are.

Mike Sigman

Mike Sigman
08-07-2011, 09:20 PM
The fact that you rarely if ever state what eg reeling silk , jin is in
terms that I can relate to, is the problem for me.
I think you're probably right, Joe. In years past I spent a great deal of time explaining things in very detailed ways, posting diagrams, and so on.... on this forum and others. There just comes a time when it's hard to work up the initiative to repeat efforts that have been made numerous times in the past.

FWIW

Mike Sigman

DH
08-07-2011, 10:24 PM
Desperate attempts to tear down my character and reputation only show the sort of person you are.
Mike Sigman
What?
Let me see if I get this straight.
You started the thread about me, and included Chinese text
I responded with Chinese text to refute a point
You responded by talking about me again instead of the text
Now here you are talking about me again?
What's up with this obsession with me?

1. If you can't or won't refute the subject you started
2. And If you won't provide any information on the subject you started, as you just stated...
Then it leaves me to doubt any serious intentions you had with using my name of this thread other than to go after me.
Jun continues to caution you about these "Dan fests" of yours and you keep doing it anyway.
Oh well
Dan

DH
08-07-2011, 10:56 PM
Hi William
Modern Aikido has external spiraling but is lacking in understanding of
internal whole body spiraling. You can feel the difference instantly.

stan
Precisely why I am not much interested in debating it much anymore.
Go meet people. If they get it (to one degree or another) it stands out and all is made known. Talking about it and debating and having to tell someone they don't get something they have invested so much of their lives in... just gets people upset.
In person it is obvious. If people can't present a physical understanding that matches what they thought they knew and you can, then what the hell was the point of all the arguing and debating in the first place?

In person...for some strange reason, no one gets angry...ya'll make friends instead of enemies...like so many of us have already done.:cool:
Just say'n
Dan

Aikibu
08-07-2011, 11:47 PM
Hi William
Modern Aikido has external spiraling but is lacking in understanding of
internal whole body spiraling. You can feel the difference instantly.

stan

Sorry Stan I don't practice "modern" Aikido and I never have. :) Thanks for the post. :)

William Hazen

Aikibu
08-07-2011, 11:49 PM
Precisely why I am not much interested in debating it much anymore.
Go meet people. If they get it (to one degree or another) it stands out and all is made known. Talking about it and debating and having to tell someone they don't get something they have invested so much of their lives in... just gets people upset.
In person it is obvious. If people can't present a physical understanding that matches what they thought they knew and you can, then what the hell was the point of all the arguing and debating in the first place?

In person...for some strange reason, no one gets angry...ya'll make friends instead of enemies...like so many of us have already done.:cool:
Just say'n
Dan

Way ahead of you there and I thank you for helping me get to that realization. :)

William Hazen

ewolput
08-08-2011, 03:38 AM
Again thhis thread is becoming a game of words.....
Anyway, maybe it could be very interesting to do some research with people who have it and people who don't have it like in the docu of the japanese television. I am not interested in a evaluation about the people doing the demo if they have it or don't have. I am interested if modern science can record and evaluate the movement and/or powermanagement of those who claim to have it, those who have it and those who don't have it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tb619wQ8o5c
from 6:15

What is your thought about it?

Eddy

dps
08-08-2011, 05:12 AM
Again thhis thread is becoming a game of words.....
Anyway, maybe it could be very interesting to do some research with people who have it and people who don't have it like in the docu of the japanese television. I am not interested in a evaluation about the people doing the demo if they have it or don't have. I am interested if modern science can record and evaluate the movement and/or powermanagement of those who claim to have it, those who have it and those who don't have it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tb619wQ8o5c
from 6:15

What is your thought about it?

Eddy

Yes. It is a physical phenomenon and is able to be measured and evaluated.

dps

danj
08-08-2011, 06:35 AM
Anyway, maybe it could be very interesting to do some research with people who have it and people who don't have it like in the docu of the japanese television. ...I am interested if modern science can record and evaluate the movement and/or powermanagement of those who claim to have it, those who have it and those who don't have it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tb619wQ8o5c
from 6:15

What is your thought about it?

Eddy

Its a nice piece of video and neat to see the comparison of 'developing' vs. 'expert' practitioner. I think though the researcher may have missed a more interesting/illuminating aspect than which can be found by looking at the centre of mass of Nage, though maybe he did but it wasn't as palatable for a TV audience and ended up on the cutting room floor - quite common in science.

Much more interesting to mee is watching examining the centre of mass of the Uke and where it is in relation to the base of support (Uke's feet) and then visually inferring the angle of applied force that Nage uses and how close that is to the optimum toppling angle, which is the minimum force required to achieve Kuzushi, which under movement Uke has to take ukemi.

best,
dan

Mike Sigman
08-08-2011, 08:25 AM
1. If you can't or won't refute the subject you started
2. And If you won't provide any information on the subject you started, as you just stated...


Why on earth would I refute the subject I started? Did you misspeak?

I did provide information and observations and pertinent questions. Look again:

So the question is really more along the lines of "what did Ueshiba do, when and *how* did he do it, and where did he learn it?" There are related questions to be asked about what Tohei, Shioda, and others knew, when and how did they did it, where they learned it, and so on.

In my personal view there are some things that Ueshiba does (in terms of body movement) that are not quite the same as seen in Tohei, Shioda, any Daito Ryu guys on videos that I've seen, and so on. Over the years I've watched all the videos of Ueshiba (and many others, too, of course) and my impression is that Ueshiba actually used his dantien somewhat more than you'd think at first glance, but he used it in relation to pretty linear jin, not the winding jin. Among a number of reasons I could list, let me point out a couple:

There is no indication of winding training in any drill done by Ueshiba.

The winding jin doesn't work in closely held arms and a high stance. There is an old saying "qi does not go through a bent joing" and in this case they're talking about the aspect of qi that I refer to as "suit" as a way of differentiating what it is.

If someone makes a throw and ends up with one arm up and one arm down, one leg forward and one leg back, that does not mean that they are using "spiraling" power, since that type of posture is common and traditional through many martial arts. I had an Aikido teacher who did the same thing, BTW, and he had no internal-strength skills whatsoever; hence, it indicates not much.

One of the real questions I've had over the years is just what Ueshiba knew. I feel like I have a better grasp after years of reading and watching videos, but it's still difficult to speak with absolute surety in many cases. Does he use "reeling silk" though? Pretty definitely not, so Chen's Taiji is not a good comparison for that reason. Yang's Taiji that uses "Pulling Silk" is probably a much better comparison (of course they also claim to use "reeling", but they don't actually).

It seems that every time substance is raised in a conversation, you tend to try to trivialize it and avoid getting into any depth. For years, after a probing questions that seem to have upset you, you've done this same thing. You want "debate".... here's debate.

The only problem with the spiralling discussion is that it brings back up your probem of jin being linear, of course.... but so far you haven't been able to explain it. Here's your chance.

Mike Sigman

Mike Sigman
08-08-2011, 08:54 AM
One point I think is very important to consider about spiralling in relation to Aikido is the heavy emphasis Ueshiba placed on being very relaxed. "Spiraling" is something that happens in the qi of the body when it is done correctly. For example, while there are some usages of deliberate windings in antagonism in some Chinese martial-arts, it's mostly a training device (the antagonism). While moving, etc., no one espoused holding antagonism. Ueshiba certainly never espoused anything other than to relax. There's a reason for that: if you tie up your suit/qi with some sort of inherent tension then the smooth interplay of the suit/qi is hampered.... and that would be a basic no-no for the simple reason that it blocks what they would call the 'flow of qi'.

FWIW

Mike Sigman

MM
08-08-2011, 09:05 AM
One of the difficulties in analysing what Ueshiba actually did for his training and application lies with the fact that he was aware/versed in the old Chinese classics,


It's been said that Ueshiba read a lot of books, however, I have yet to see the list of books that he read. Could you please cite where you found that Ueshiba was "aware/versed in the old Chinese classics"?


Dan's example of a Chen-style maxim is an example to consider: does the saying really discuss what Dan thinks it does and therefore prohibit forward and backward movement (there is an adjunctive saying about not going up or down, too)? Not really.


So you disagree. That's fine. Now cite, show, or tell us why. Simply saying I disagree doesn't cut it. You have to support your ideas, otherwise, why should we listen to someone just saying that they disagree? Even Graham actually adds why he disagrees to his posts.


It turns out that even Okinawan karate (and most other arts, too) all refer to spiralings along the lines of the Ueshiba quote above.


What Okinawan karate? I can say some Chinese systems refer to spiraling, but that's kind of silly. Actually naming said systems so that people can actually reference what you're talking about is much better. As an example, see my next reply


these the same kinds of spiraling used in the Chen-style Taijiquan? No,


Which Chen-style are you referring to? There are two main lines that I know of and they are very different. One does use the same kind of spiraling that Ueshiba used and one doesn't seem to. So, you see, just tossing out that some general martial system has spiraling, doesn't mean anything. Why even bring it up?


Because Ueshiba mentions the classical adage about spiraling doesn't necessarily mean that he thought of it and or did it in any way like the Chen-styles Reeling-Silk-Jin.


Again, which Chen-style. Beyond that, how long have you studied that particular Chen-style and who was your teacher that you know this detailed level of knowledge about their reeling silk?


There is no indication of winding training in any drill done by Ueshiba.


Um, where did you get Ueshiba's list of exercises/drills that he did? There's a lot of printed material out there on aikido but I have yet to find one where it lists Ueshiba's personal exercises or drills. Would be nice to know where that book is. Otherwise, how do you know what Ueshiba did as exercises or drills?


The winding jin doesn't work in closely held arms and a high stance. There is an old saying "qi does not go through a bent joing" and in this case they're talking about the aspect of qi that I refer to as "suit" as a way of differentiating what it is.


winding what? Could you please define just how you are using the term jin as it compares/relates/contrasts to Japanese terminology. This is, after all, a Japanese martial art. Others have said that they don't know what you mean by jin. And we have seen cross talk because people define words differently. Otherwise, you could be talking about something completely and utterly different than what we, as readers, are thinking. For example, internal spirals work within any shape that the body holds. So, your "winding jin" must not be the same thing. Sounds like something very different from your Chinese background than what Ueshiba was doing.


If someone makes a throw and ends up with one arm up and one arm down, one leg forward and one leg back, that does not mean that they are using "spiraling" power, since that type of posture is common and traditional through many martial arts. I had an Aikido teacher who did the same thing, BTW, and he had no internal-strength skills whatsoever; hence, it indicates not much.


After *all* the threads and posts about Ueshiba being different than modern aikido people, you still compare them? That's like saying, "Oh, Ueshiba couldn't be doing spiraling because modern aikido people *look* like him and they aren't." Huh? The whole point of years and decades worth of talk is that Ueshiba *was* different.


One of the real questions I've had over the years is just what Ueshiba knew. I feel like I have a better grasp after years of reading and watching videos, but it's still difficult to speak with absolute surety in many cases. Does he use "reeling silk" though? Pretty definitely not, so Chen's Taiji is not a good comparison for that reason. Yang's Taiji that uses "Pulling Silk" is probably a much better comparison (of course they also claim to use "reeling", but they don't actually).


Again, which lineage of Yang Taiji? How long have you trained in all lineages of Yang Taiji such that you know for sure that they don't use reeling silk? Which Chen style? How long have you trained in any of them? Could you please define just how you are using the term reeling silk as it compares/relates/contrasts to Japanese terminology. This is, after all, a Japanese martial art. It really doesn't sound like you're talking about the same kinds of skills and abilities in regards to Ueshiba's aiki.


2 cents in order to start a rousing discussion. Disagree'ers please start with something like "I think you're wrong because...." as opposed to ad hominems, character assassination, and so forth. ;)

Mike Sigman

Huh, you mean you don't want to see things like:

Well, i just disagree. All martial arts have spiral definitions in them so Ueshiba can't be doing that. I've trained with some modern students of aikido who didn't use spirals so therefore the founder must not have been using them. There's really no detailed information out there on the founder's personal training but I know that he didn't have drills for internal winding.

Eric in Denver
08-08-2011, 09:20 AM
"Spiraling" is something that happens in the qi of the body when it is done correctly. For example, while there are some usages of deliberate windings in antagonism in some Chinese martial-arts, it's mostly a training device (the antagonism). While moving, etc., no one espoused holding antagonism.
Mike Sigman

Mike,

This is getting closer to clarifying a point I am still having difficulty with. Could you go into more depth about the difference between winding and spiraling?

Thanks!

Mike Sigman
08-08-2011, 09:49 AM
It's been said that Ueshiba read a lot of books, however, I have yet to see the list of books that he read. Could you please cite where you found that Ueshiba was "aware/versed in the old Chinese classics"? Wait.... you've spent hours putting down Ueshiba on this very forum and you're not aware that he studied the Chinese classics? Do you know that studying the Chinese classics was almost de rigeur in his day among the educated? John Stevens mentions it in one of his books and I've seen it in a number of other places. Here, try this one:

http://aikidobloomington.com/About/OSensei

The Great Master, Morihei Ueshiba, founder of Aikido, was born in Tanabe City, Wakayama Prefecture, Honshu, Japan, on December 14, 1883. He started the study of the Nine Chinese Classics under Priest Mitsujo Fujimoto of Jizoji Temple, Shingon Sect Buddhism, at the age of seven. At the age of ten, he studied Zen Buddhism at the Homanji Temple. Blessed with an extraordinary intellect and undying effort by nature, he would come to master numerous martial arts and create one of the most integrated martial arts of our time, Aikido.

So you disagree. That's fine. Now cite, show, or tell us why. Simply saying I disagree doesn't cut it. You have to support your ideas, otherwise, why should we listen to someone just saying that they disagree? Even Graham actually adds why he disagrees to his posts. You expect me to teach you the Chen style in 2 easy lessons? Let me show you a quick way for you to grasp the idea that Dan's quote doesn't mean what it literally says: go look at a filmed video of someone competent doing the Chen-style and notice that at times there is certainly backward and forward movement (as there is also up and down movement although there is a saying prohibiting that). This is like the admonition of "double weighting" which does not mean to never have the weight on both feet at the same time (it happens all the time as you transition)... it means something different.

What Okinawan karate? I can say some Chinese systems refer to spiraling, but that's kind of silly. Actually naming said systems so that people can actually reference what you're talking about is much better. As an example, see my next reply
Uechi Ryu, for one. But I've seen it in others over the years. My teacher was Seiyu Shinjo on Okinawa.

Which Chen-style are you referring to? There are two main lines that I know of and they are very different. Which ones are they? I'm not aware of "two main lines".
Again, which Chen-style. Beyond that, how long have you studied that particular Chen-style and who was your teacher that you know this detailed level of knowledge about their reeling silk? Sorry, but your tone and demands just stepped over the line into a personal insult, Mark. My teachers of the Chen style were Qi Ben Den, Liang Shouyu, Liang Baiping, and some with Chen Xiaowang in the times that he stayed with me, workshops, etc., in Denver. Who are yours and Dan's teachers that you've suddenly become experts in the Chen style that you feel confident enough to quote things you don't understand? This is an Aikido thread, not a Chen-style thread, so bring it back on topic after you answer who yours and Dans teachers were.

Um, where did you get Ueshiba's list of exercises/drills that he did? There's a lot of printed material out there on aikido but I have yet to find one where it lists Ueshiba's personal exercises or drills. Would be nice to know where that book is. Otherwise, how do you know what Ueshiba did as exercises or drills? Read what I said, Mark. You've misconstrued my actual words.

winding what? Could you please define just how you are using the term jin as it compares/relates/contrasts to Japanese terminology. This is, after all, a Japanese martial art. Others have said that they don't know what you mean by jin. And we have seen cross talk because people define words differently. Otherwise, you could be talking about something completely and utterly different than what we, as readers, are thinking. For example, internal spirals work within any shape that the body holds. So, your "winding jin" must not be the same thing. Sounds like something very different from your Chinese background than what Ueshiba was doing. Ki, hara, kokyu forces, Earth, Heaven, Man...... are you suggesting that there is overlap with some of these things in Japan, but anything you want to hide behind you say "it's different in Japan?". Doesn't work that way. Once you're on the logic of one of those, all else follows. Unless, of course, someone is just making it up and trying to hide that fact.

You can go back and climb into his lap, now.

Mike Sigman

Marc Abrams
08-08-2011, 10:04 AM
Mike attempted a cheap-shot at Dan with a thread in the Open Discussion section that Jun correctly removed very quickly. Soon after that, this thread emerges. Mike would like us to believe that this thread is somehow NOT about his "pissing contest" with Dan.

It is clear to almost anybody on Aikiweb that you two disagree with one another and do not like one another. It would be amusing to organize a pay-per-view event of Dan and Mike in a ring together with the proceeds to pay for Aikiweb's ongoing operating costs..... Obviously that is not going to take place. In absence of that, I would strongly advocate a stance where Mike and Dan simply stop any and all communications with one another. This thread is little more than a thinly veiled attempt at Mike trying to engage in another antagonistic interaction with Dan and the people who advocate and support what Dan is teaching. Little if any useful information ever emerges from these pissing contests.

It would be nice to see a thread started about these types of topics without the obvious "pissing contest" that is underpinning of this thread. I have privately spoken with Dan on more than one occasion, encouraging him to not initiate or respond to Mike. If I had any type of cordial relationship with Mike, I would do the same thing. Maybe somebody out there, who does have a cordial relationship with Mike could suggest to him that he ceases to engage in this type of petty behavior. These threads and ensuing debates only make things worse. If the Aikiweb is about Aikido then it seems reasonable to suggest that attempts are made at harmonizing and not antagonizing.

Just my 2 cents....

Marc Abrams

Mike Sigman
08-08-2011, 10:11 AM
Mike attempted a cheap-shot at Dan with a thread in the Open Discussion section that Jun correctly removed very quickly. Soon after that, this thread emerges. Mike would like us to believe that this thread is somehow NOT about his "pissing contest" with Dan.

It is clear to almost anybody on Aikiweb that you two disagree with one another and do not like one another. It would be amusing to organize a pay-per-view event of Dan and Mike in a ring together with the proceeds to pay for Aikiweb's ongoing operating costs..... Obviously that is not going to take place. In absence of that, I would strongly advocate a stance where Mike and Dan simply stop any and all communications with one another. This thread is little more than a thinly veiled attempt at Mike trying to engage in another antagonistic interaction with Dan and the people who advocate and support what Dan is teaching. Little if any useful information ever emerges from these pissing contests.

It would be nice to see a thread started about these types of topics without the obvious "pissing contest" that is underpinning of this thread. I have privately spoken with Dan on more than one occasion, encouraging him to not initiate or respond to Mike. If I had any type of cordial relationship with Mike, I would do the same thing. Maybe somebody out there, who does have a cordial relationship with Mike could suggest to him that he ceases to engage in this type of petty behavior. These threads and ensuing debates only make things worse. If the Aikiweb is about Aikido then it seems reasonable to suggest that attempts are made at harmonizing and not antagonizing.

Just my 2 cents....

Marc AbramsMarc, you're one of the known lap-dogs of Dan. Would you mind not starting another one of your discussions that essentially attacks me personally again, please.

Mike Sigman

Nicholas Eschenbruch
08-08-2011, 10:13 AM
Mike attempted a cheap-shot at Dan with a thread in the Open Discussion section that Jun correctly removed very quickly. Soon after that, this thread emerges. Mike would like us to believe that this thread is somehow NOT about his "pissing contest" with Dan.

It is clear to almost anybody on Aikiweb that you two disagree with one another and do not like one another. It would be amusing to organize a pay-per-view event of Dan and Mike in a ring together with the proceeds to pay for Aikiweb's ongoing operating costs..... Obviously that is not going to take place. In absence of that, I would strongly advocate a stance where Mike and Dan simply stop any and all communications with one another. This thread is little more than a thinly veiled attempt at Mike trying to engage in another antagonistic interaction with Dan and the people who advocate and support what Dan is teaching. Little if any useful information ever emerges from these pissing contests.

It would be nice to see a thread started about these types of topics without the obvious "pissing contest" that is underpinning of this thread. I have privately spoken with Dan on more than one occasion, encouraging him to not initiate or respond to Mike. If I had any type of cordial relationship with Mike, I would do the same thing. Maybe somebody out there, who does have a cordial relationship with Mike could suggest to him that he ceases to engage in this type of petty behavior. These threads and ensuing debates only make things worse. If the Aikiweb is about Aikido then it seems reasonable to suggest that attempts are made at harmonizing and not antagonizing.

Just my 2 cents....

Marc Abrams

I second. Excellent suggestion.

Thomas Campbell
08-08-2011, 10:17 AM
hi Thomas thanks for the feedback..thoughts below

I think for me as a deductive kind of person it gives confidence to the traditions of the art, a viewpoint to reinterpret what I have been doing and perhaps a way to sort the wheat from the chaff. Its helped enormously in being able to critically evaluate the kata of aikido (as nage and uke), ki testing from my early days and all of a sudden be able to stop something like nikkyo effortlessly from seniors was an eye opener that IS and similar approaches have got something going on

Yeah I think i'd agree with that, though what i am personally doing is looking mostly at static stuff for now so mostly the first segment and hopefully can generalise from there as to what is best way to move etc..

From what I understand of fascia simplistically as covers over the muscles and tendons they could be considered as a passive/ active 'skin suit' that improves the efficiency of muscles/tendons and maybe make a contribution in their own right. For now I am happy to bundle them all into the same basket to reduce variables which can get in the way of a pretty basic understanding. Mind you judging form conversations, others (probably you?) are considerably further down this road so I just tend to butt out a bit

dan

Dan--

Thank you for that. I had to wade through a bit of mud and smoke to find your respons. :) But it's very helpful, particularly about the need to "reduce variables which can get in the way of a pretty basic understanding." For my part, although I am grateful for the training perspectives and seeds of insight that can be found by enduring the Sturm und Drang of this particular forum, there is far more vaguely-anchored theory and half-baked historical speculation than solid sharing of specific "how-tos"--which I think is what most of us are looking for. The hands-on personal contact has been far more beneficial for my own small progress. I'm in the process of organizing my own notes for sharing, though it will be a little while.

Tom

Marc Abrams
08-08-2011, 10:24 AM
Marc, you're one of the known lap-dogs of Dan. Would you mind not starting another one of your discussions that essentially attacks me personally again, please.

Mike Sigman

Mike:

Personal insults are something that you seem to have no problem with. You have no problem attacking other people, veiled and not-so thinly veiled and them act offended when people respond directly to your antagonistic attempts.

Been there, seen it and done it with you before. If you would like to point out any particular point that I made as being inaccurate, be my guest. If you want to engage in name-calling with me, be my guest as well. My suggestions to the both of you still apply. Seems like one person already seconded that position. Is he a "lap-dog" as well?

Marc Abrams

gregstec
08-08-2011, 11:00 AM
Mike:

Personal insults are something that you seem to have no problem with. You have no problem attacking other people, veiled and not-so thinly veiled and them act offended when people respond directly to your antagonistic attempts.

Been there, seen it and done it with you before. If you would like to point out any particular point that I made as being inaccurate, be my guest. If you want to engage in name-calling with me, be my guest as well. My suggestions to the both of you still apply. Seems like one person already seconded that position. Is he a "lap-dog" as well?

Marc Abrams

Ditto to your posts Marc - and I am sure Mr. Sigman considers me one of Dan's lap dogs as well - however, that is a very good example of just how Mr. Sigman can be wrong in his assertions and observations - I am just too 'fricking' big and ornery to be anybody's lap dog :D

Greg

Nicholas Eschenbruch
08-08-2011, 11:14 AM
Just before I get drawn to any sides here: I like the "bilateral" beauty of Marc's suggestion and did not take it as necessarily directed against Mike only.

Plus: as a confessing aikibunny I shall be mortally offended if anybody should call me a dog. Dogs are evil. Us bunnies learn aiki to fight them - one day.

mathewjgano
08-08-2011, 11:16 AM
Whatever the case for Aikido, these threads too often have the downward variety. How much of a pattern do people need before they start checking that same old behavior (very old)?
To the usual suspects: again, please stop poisoning these conversations. You all seem to have much to say to each other; I request you do it by PM or get over it. This is absurd.
Not-so-humbly,
Matt

Janet Rosen
08-08-2011, 11:19 AM
I've met Mike Sigman once for a workshop. I've never met Dan Harden, though I'd like to. I train in an unaffiiated dojo. My interest is opening myself to as much training as possible.
What I'm about to say has NOTHING to do with the relative merits of either of your actual abilities or training or IRL contributions. They are strictly about what happens here in these threads:
These ARE pissing contests, they are a horrible waste of time and energy and the attempts by both of you to draw the rest of us in or score points is just silly.
I do call on all third parties to stop feeding it if the two can't. and I don't give a godamn "who started it."

Mike Sigman
08-08-2011, 11:21 AM
Seems like one person already seconded that position. Is he a "lap-dog" as well?


If you mean Nicholas, it sounds like he's agreeing that an in-depth discussion of details, without personal attacks, be done. I've attempted that a number of times, particularly a few years back.

In the last few days I've asked very specific questions and gotten vague evasions and inferences that "Japanese arts are different". Really?

Tell you what I'll do. I'll start a very specific thread, quoting Dan's assertion about how jin is not linear... once again... and then let's see how specific the answer is. "Spiraling"? I'll throw that into the thread again. There's a very serious problem going on about this "spiraling" and it would do everyone a lot of good to find out what it is. This nonsense about the Japanese doing it differently is complete bunkum... what's really happened is that someone has badly misunderstood what "spiraling" refers to.

Let me know the next time you come to Durango, Marc. I want to see if your 'spiraling' is better than it was last time.

Mike Sigman

Mike Sigman
08-08-2011, 11:27 AM
These ARE pissing contests, they are a horrible waste of time and energy and the attempts by both of you to draw the rest of us in or score points is just silly.
I do call on all third parties to stop feeding it if the two can't. and I don't give a godamn "who started it."Just to take the other side for a moment..... we used to allow "pissing contests" that had *some* substance in them to continue on the Neijia List and later iterations of the forum. Sometimes information comes out in bickering, etc., *as long as it generally stays on the subject area*. If, on the other hand, bickering and personal attack is used because someone can't really answer a question, etc., that's a different thing.


2 cents.

Mike Sigman

Nicholas Eschenbruch
08-08-2011, 11:30 AM
I've met Mike Sigman once for a workshop. I've never met Dan Harden, though I'd like to. I train in an unaffiiated dojo. My interest is opening myself to as much training as possible.
What I'm about to say has NOTHING to do with the relative merits of either of your actual abilities or training or IRL contributions. They are strictly about what happens here in these threads:
These ARE pissing contests, they are a horrible waste of time and energy and the attempts by both of you to draw the rest of us in or score points is just silly.
I do call on all third parties to stop feeding it if the two can't. and I don't give a godamn "who started it."

Or maybe Phi (will you?) and myself could spam the thread to death with silly animal jokes????

Marc Abrams
08-08-2011, 11:31 AM
If you mean Nicholas, it sounds like he's agreeing that an in-depth discussion of details, without personal attacks, be done. I've attempted that a number of times, particularly a few years back.

In the last few days I've asked very specific questions and gotten vague evasions and inferences that "Japanese arts are different". Really?

Tell you what I'll do. I'll start a very specific thread, quoting Dan's assertion about how jin is not linear... once again... and then let's see how specific the answer is. "Spiralling"? I'll throw that into the thread again. There's a very serious problem going on about this "spiralling" and it would do everyone a lot of good to find out what it is. This nonsense about the Japanese doing it differently is complete bunkum... what's really happened is that someone has badly misunderstood what "spiralling" refers to.

Let me know the next time you come to Durango, Marc. I want to see if your 'spiralling' is better than it was last time.

Mike Sigman

Mike:

1) Why don't you start a thread without any reference to Dan? What a novel idea! That is what I had suggested that BOTH of you avoid doing in the first place and people seem to like that idea.

2) Now you are trying to get person with me. I went to visit you in good faith. What followed was what I considered to be disrespectful to me and at least one of my teachers and in bad faith. I confronted you on that and we had a falling out, to say the least.

3) Next time I am teaching a seminar in Durango, you can easily find out about it by keeping an eye on the seminar thread section of the Aikiweb or in the Aikido Journal website.

4) I do not train with people who I do not respect and you are on that list. If you feel the need to observe the seminar that I teach, knock yourself out. If you create a scene, you will be escorted out of the facility. You certainly will not be invited or allowed to attend any of the training classes. Training is done in a cordial environment, which would preclude you and I having to working on the mats together.

5) Your opinion of me is of no consequence to my evaluation of myself and my budo, but thank you for sharing.

Marc Abrams

Mike Sigman
08-08-2011, 11:42 AM
1) Why don't you start a thread without any reference to Dan? Wait a second. I just started a thread, if you'll look, but it's based upon Dan's public assertion about how something works. Focusing strictly on that physical set of related questions. Let's see how it progresses.

The rest of your shot at me I'll ignore except to say that I simply asked to see what progress you've made with 'spiraling'. There is a very serious problem about the whole 'spiraling' thing that needs to be publicly discussed. If you know enough to "teach", then you should be able to contribute more to the discussion on spiraling than your character slams. So let's see your input (and the other three 'supporters') on the thread, too. The question is "how does it work?". Let's see how far that goes.

Mike Sigman

Mike Sigman
08-08-2011, 11:44 AM
Or maybe Phi (will you?) and myself could spam the thread to death with silly animal jokes????Why don't all of you guys contribute what you know about the subject, if you're going to jump into the thread? Even with Phi's jokes, he at least has a history of contributing useful nuggets and observations among his entries.

Mike Sigman

Nicholas Eschenbruch
08-08-2011, 12:00 PM
Why don't all of you guys contribute what you know about the subject, if you're going to jump into the thread? Even with Phi's jokes, he at least has a history of contributing useful nuggets and observations among his entries.

Mike Sigman

Sorry Mike, apologies, I got carried away by that lapdog image.

JW
08-08-2011, 12:05 PM
OK I want to get to the bottom of this 'spiralling' issue but I have yet to even be convinced that there is a true disagreement in the first place:

Two people could argue about the color of a cloudless noon sky-- not because of any difference of experience, but because of word choice. How am I supposed to know if one of you is wrong about the color of the sky? (Of course, go look at it with you, but I don't think we've really hit the limits of a net forum yet).

Case in point, "linear." Dan and Mike both disagree with the idea of a foot, belly, and hand needing to be colinear. But still there's arguing.

Mike's words:

Generally, the power from the ground goes up the legs to hips and dantien and then the shortest path to the point of application.
(http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=289353&postcount=43)
So Mike, you have described (in this very simple example) 2 line segments, (possibly 3 if we count a segment between hip and dantain) which are not necessarily colinear with each other. In fact those segments are anchored to certain points of the body in this description, meaning one could really put severe angles between them by moving into a certain shape. So for all this "linear" talk, you have in fact described:
-a series of connected line segments
-segments having end positions that are contingent on body shape

In essence: a force percept that can project linearly through the air while also being constrained (in some locations) to follow the shape of the body. The shape of the body is agreed to be curvy: we all agree that the human body wants to express spirals, as revealed in either relaxed movement:
the heavy emphasis Ueshiba placed on being very relaxed. "Spiraling" is something that happens in the qi of the body when it is done correctly.
Or in high-stakes sports:

Alexander technique for Tennis :
The Key to Power: Spiral Movement
Spiral movement is the secret to accessing enormous untapped power in your strokes. ...

So even if this has nothing to do with chansijin, we have curves that describe movement of the body, and a force percept that tends to follow the body. In other words I can see how "linear" can sound wrong and in essence be pretty reasonable. If the human body moves in spirals when used most efficiently, and the body is made to cleanly express the ground's push continuously throughout a movement.. I am not sure what the argument is anymore. Of course a force has only one magnitude and one direction. So it is "linear." But how you use it is constrained by the way the body moves (in a spiralling shape).

I think the basis for the disagreement is not coming through in the words here.

thisisnotreal
08-08-2011, 12:10 PM
Why not describe what spiraling is, as opposed to challenging the other. No one has ever done that on aikiweb. How can you say one is wrong and the other is right without taking that first step?

All else is meta-conversation, meaning only "talk about talking about the subject."

DH
08-08-2011, 12:15 PM
Deleted

Marc Abrams
08-08-2011, 12:17 PM
Wait a second. I just started a thread, if you'll look, but it's based upon Dan's public assertion about how something works. Focusing strictly on that physical set of related questions. Let's see how it progresses.

The rest of your shot at me I'll ignore except to say that I simply asked to see what progress you've made with 'spiraling'. There is a very serious problem about the whole 'spiraling' thing that needs to be publicly discussed. If you know enough to "teach", then you should be able to contribute more to the discussion on spiraling than your character slams. So let's see your input (and the other three 'supporters') on the thread, too. The question is "how does it work?". Let's see how far that goes.

Mike Sigman

Mike:

1) You and Dan do not like or respect each other.

2) We seem to be a lot more intelligent than you take us to be in that it is painfully obvious to almost everybody out there that you are not interested in an idea, but in attempting to engage in a pissing contest with Dan VIA his idea. Do you not think that we can clearly see through what you are really trying to do? Can you seriously expect us to believe that you are simply trying to discuss an idea as opposed to opposing Dan's idea?

3) My ability to teach has absolutely NOTHING to do with your assessment of what I can or cannot do. Do not try and hide behind passive-aggressive comments directed toward a person and then complain when you are called on this behavior and you label being called on this behavior as "character slam." You and I have gone that route before in PM's to each other and we should not have to slide down that hill again.

4) My contribution to this thread is far more important than what you have started in this thread. I have asked that BOTH OF YOU refrain from referencing and responding to each other, BECAUSE of the nature of the lack of relationship between the two of you.

Even if your take on this topic was right, does not make the pissing contest that YOU started right.

Marc Abrams

Mike Sigman
08-08-2011, 12:33 PM
Mike:

1) You and Dan do not like or respect each other.

2) We seem to be a lot more intelligent than you take us to be in that it is painfully obvious to almost everybody out there that you are not interested in an idea, but in attempting to engage in a pissing contest with Dan VIA his idea. Do you not think that we can clearly see through what you are really trying to do? Can you seriously expect us to believe that you are simply trying to discuss an idea as opposed to opposing Dan's idea?

3) My ability to teach has absolutely NOTHING to do with your assessment of what I can or cannot do. Do not try and hide behind passive-aggressive comments directed toward a person and then complain when you are called on this behavior and you label being called on this behavior as "character slam." You and I have gone that route before in PM's to each other and we should not have to slide down that hill again.

4) My contribution to this thread is far more important than what you have started in this thread. I have asked that BOTH OF YOU refrain from referencing and responding to each other, BECAUSE of the nature of the lack of relationship between the two of you.

Even if your take on this topic was right, does not make the pissing contest that YOU started right.

Marc Abrams

I started another thread that directly deals with the issue. Jonathan, would you do me a favor and copy your post/thoughts over to the other thread, please? You make some good points.

Marc, I'm tired of your personal commentary. However, to be fair and as has been pointed out to me, you do these types of attacks on others, occasionally, so it's not just me.

Mike Sigman

Mike Sigman
08-08-2011, 12:36 PM
Incidentally, the thread I started, one which is meant to discuss purely facts and zero personality, is titled Restart on Jin/kokyu and "Spiraling".

Mike Sigman

Marc Abrams
08-08-2011, 01:39 PM
I started another thread that directly deals with the issue. Jonathan, would you do me a favor and copy your post/thoughts over to the other thread, please? You make some good points.

Marc, I'm tired of your personal commentary. However, to be fair and as has been pointed out to me, you do these types of attacks on others, occasionally, so it's not just me.

Mike Sigman

Mike:

1) It does not matter where you start a thread. Maybe one day you will be capable of starting a thread as simply an idea posited or a position stated. Obviously, you are not there yet.

2) Me attacking? I think these are YOUR words in regards to somebody else on this forum: " I'll bet you lay this sort of silly guilt trip on your students. The problem with a public forum, your videos, etc., is that people can judge for themselves without having to bear the burdens you impose. Wear that Rasta Cap, Bruddah.... you just went on my ignore list. PLONK.

Mike Sigman"

Seems to me like a pretty clear example of projective identification on your part Mike. As to you seeming to be fair, I think you should take a good hard luck at how you treat people on your own forum who did not agree with your position. ;)

Marc Abrams

Mike Sigman
08-08-2011, 01:53 PM
Mike:

1) It does not matter where you start a thread. Maybe one day you will be capable of starting a thread as simply an idea posited or a position stated. Obviously, you are not there yet.

2) Me attacking? I think these are YOUR words in regards to somebody else on this forum: " I'll bet you lay this sort of silly guilt trip on your students. The problem with a public forum, your videos, etc., is that people can judge for themselves without having to bear the burdens you impose. Wear that Rasta Cap, Bruddah.... you just went on my ignore list. PLONK.

Mike Sigman"

Seems to me like a pretty clear example of projective identification on your part Mike. As to you seeming to be fair, I think you should take a good hard luck at how you treat people on your own forum who did not agree with your position. ;)

Marc Abrams

Still not a single factual contribution on the topic in any of your posts, Marc.

Aikibu
08-08-2011, 02:11 PM
Still not a single factual contribution on the topic in any of your posts, Marc.

Nor in yours...Make no mistake If there is one consistency in every negative attack posted here in the last three years in any thread you've posted in or started it's that you're an active participant.

On my ignore list from this point forward.

William Hazen

danj
08-08-2011, 06:13 PM
A quick thankyou to everyone that participated, I got some nice viewpoints (even chimed in a little) and it got me thinking a bit. Sure the Signal to Noise ratio is variable at times, not that I always know what is signal and what is noise, but thats part of discovery

FWIW In science I have had some of the greatest of learning opportunities during question time at conference presentations from many view points including the podium, as poser of questions (yes sometimes they are leading questions), as a bystander and some times as the chair (adjudicator). Sometimes the followup or the 'make up' sessions in the corridors, at a tea break or over a meal have been the best, in fact I have formed some life long collaborations and friendships from these.

dan

sakumeikan
08-08-2011, 06:58 PM
I think you're probably right, Joe. In years past I spent a great deal of time explaining things in very detailed ways, posting diagrams, and so on.... on this forum and others. There just comes a time when it's hard to work up the initiative to repeat efforts that have been made numerous times in the past.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
Dear Mike,
Thanks for the answer given,As a relative newcomer on this forum no doubt I missed your earlier explanations etc.I will try and pick up on my lack of knowledge inC.M.Ai n order to converse /discuss important issues brought here by you and Mr Harden, cheers, Joe

stan baker
08-08-2011, 07:03 PM
Hi Marc
Mike is not interested in the truth do not waste time with him.If he ever has the courage to experience Dan or my chen teacher Wang Hai jun his motivation may change.I think the old style aikido had similar power and skill like these guys

stan

Mike Sigman
08-08-2011, 07:58 PM
Hi Marc
Mike is not interested in the truth do not waste time with him.If he ever has the courage to experience Dan or my chen teacher Wang Hai jun his motivation may change.I think the old style aikido had similar power and skill like these guys

stanHmmmm.... is this the Wang Hai Jun that Dan Harden said he could beat in a fight? Why study with Wang Hai Jun, Stan? After all the comments I've heard from the WHJ students about your understanding, you're probably wasting your time. Study with Dan and forget these guys who don't understand CMA's as well as Dan.

Mike Sigman

Marc Abrams
08-08-2011, 08:16 PM
Hi Marc
Mike is not interested in the truth do not waste time with him.If he ever has the courage to experience Dan or my chen teacher Wang Hai jun his motivation may change.I think the old style aikido had similar power and skill like these guys

stan

Stan:

I genuinely do believe that Mike is interested in seeking "truth" as he sees it to be (like all of us). Mike is entitled to talk about his ideas, right or wrong. We all can benefit from a "clean" analysis of ideas. It would be nice if Mike could somehow find a way to separate his personal beliefs, likes and dislikes and opinions of others, from ideas. Mike is his own worst enemy in this regard. He is too personally invested in trying to prove himself right and Dan wrong so that it taints his thinking. That is why he throws people off of his forum when they disagree with him when he engages in attacks on other people.

I have no problem pointing this out to him and I do not consider that to be a waste of time. Hopefully, the more people that continue to call him on this, the more likely that it is that Mike will stop playing that game that many of us are sick and tired of seeing replayed.

I do not put forth my take on things with him, because I do not see him as being capable of separating my ideas from his unhealthy need to attack me and others for not agreeing with him. To that end, it is not worth my time, nor do I particularly care what he thinks of my ideas. Mike is no more an authority in the Chinese community on his ideas than he is here. He has some well-thought opinions, be they right or wrong, and they do stimulate other people to think about things that can help in deepening our knowledge. Maybe he will be able to move beyond this stuck point and contribute to the knowledge base without simultaneously having to prop himself up at the expense of others. For now, I am not holding my breath that is capable or ready to do so.

Regards,

Marc Abrams

stan baker
08-08-2011, 08:16 PM
Hi Mike
you do not know any of Wang Hai Jun students.I think this is good time to clarify your understanding of internal Martial Arts, and how it applies to application and fighting,but you will have hands on experience for that to happen. Dan Harden and Wang Hai Jun are two
great Martial artists and teachers if you were not so unlucky you could study with them.

stan

Mike Sigman
08-08-2011, 08:27 PM
Stan: [[snip comment]]
Marc... do you honestly think that no one notices that your comments are poorly disguised personal attacks? Most comments are in the range of "bizarre" that I've heard. Perhaps Jun doesn't notice, as you seem to assume?

Mike Sigman

Mike Sigman
08-08-2011, 08:30 PM
Hi Mike
you do not know any of Wang Hai Jun studentsActually, you are quite wrong, Stan. In fact, I know a number of them and you are considered a joke as you go around and correct peoples' postures. Now..... could you go back to the topic?

I'm hoping that Jun will soon close this thread since Dan's lapdogs have come into play. "Spiraling" is gone as an issue and "Attack Mike" has taken over. Only once has Dan ever commented on his lapdogs. While this works with people like the poor guy from Florida whose post was beaten into quietude by Dan's lapdogs, I think it's time for that sort of thing to stop on AikiWeb. Or perhaps, as a friend of mine in Ikeda's dojo noted.... the bad-guys have won.

Mike Sigman

Marc Abrams
08-08-2011, 08:38 PM
Marc... do you honestly think that no one notices that your comments are poorly disguised personal attacks? Most comments are in the range of "bizarre" that I've heard. Perhaps Jun doesn't notice, as you seem to assume?

Mike Sigman

Mike:

If I were concerned about people not noticing my posts, I would not post them. You are entitled, like the other unknown people you refer to, to what ever opinions you and they would like to make.

I can only hope that Jun notices and takes notice of my original proposition. That is that both you and Dan refrain from referencing the other person or responding to the other person. The posts on this thread support that notion. As a matter of fact, it is the response of well-thought people like William Hazen, that speak volumes.

When you and I engaged in personal attacks, it was through PM's. We both know where that one ended up. The name calling (eg. - lap dog) came from you. I have no need to engage in that game with you again. The continuing issue, as I see it, is your unwillingness or inability to posit an idea in absence of attacking people who do not share that same opinion. That pattern continues unabated......

Marc Abrams

Mike Sigman
08-08-2011, 08:48 PM
The name calling (eg. - lap dog) came from you. Actually, it didn't, Marc. It came from another well-known poster on AikiWeb. You should understand that.

If you get a chance, please stop by and show me how much you've improved. If you can't do that, I'll understand.

Mike Sigman

Marc Abrams
08-08-2011, 09:06 PM
Actually, it didn't, Marc. It came from another well-known poster on AikiWeb. You should understand that.

If you get a chance, please stop by and show me how much you've improved. If you can't do that, I'll understand.

Mike Sigman

Mike:

You don't seem to know when to stop do you? It was your post, wasn't it that referenced me as a "lap dog." If some other "well-known poster on Aikiweb" wants to stand behind that comment in a public post, then I will wait and respond accordingly.

As to your veiled threat about stopping by, what don't you understand about my not really caring one way or another what you think about me, or my budo skills. Again, It was you who brought up my presence in Durango and I clearly outlined things for you might want to reference that post again. If you can't abide by those guidelines, I'll understand and respond accordingly.

Marc Abrams

Mike Sigman
08-08-2011, 09:10 PM
As to your veiled threat about stopping by,

No veiled threat at all, Marc. Just like last time I'll be the usual friendly and diplomatic me. If you have improved, please stop by. If you haven't, please continue teaching.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Marc Abrams
08-08-2011, 09:13 PM
No veiled threat at all, Marc. Just like last time I'll be the usual friendly and diplomatic me. If you have improved, please stop by. If you haven't, please continue teaching.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Mike,

Thanks for your kind offer while sending a pm trying to instigate me. Once again, I will kindly decline your offer that does not interest me and yes, I will continue teaching.

Regards,

Marc Abrams

Mike Sigman
08-08-2011, 09:22 PM
I will kindly decline your offer that does not interest me and yes, I will continue teaching.
No problem. Do as you can do. Despite all your claims to have learned so much from Ushiro, you have yet to contribute to the substance of the O.T., Marc. What do you think?

Mike Sigman

phitruong
08-08-2011, 09:52 PM
this thread is spiraling out of control. come on people! everyone knows that there is spiraling in aikido; otherwise, we would be wearing the skirt so we could have a Marilyn Monroe moment, right? especially when we have so much hot air blowing here. ooohhh that reminds me, i need to shave my legs. harry legs would definitely affecting the whole spiral stuffs, because of too much wind drag and all. :D

Mike Sigman
08-08-2011, 09:56 PM
this thread is spiraling out of control. come on people! everyone knows that there is spiraling in aikido; otherwise, we would be wearing the skirt so we could have a Marilyn Monroe moment, right? especially when we have so much hot air blowing here. ooohhh that reminds me, i need to shave my legs. harry legs would definitely affecting the whole spiral stuffs, because of too much wind drag and all. :D

I think a number of us are praying for closure. Mark Murray took the thread out of control so from here on it's "How many posts can you squeak in before Jun locks the thread". :D

All in Good Fun.

Mike

mathewjgano
08-08-2011, 10:02 PM
this thread is spiraling out of control. come on people! everyone knows that there is spiraling in aikido; otherwise, we would be wearing the skirt so we could have a Marilyn Monroe moment, right? especially when we have so much hot air blowing here. ooohhh that reminds me, i need to shave my legs. harry legs would definitely affecting the whole spiral stuffs, because of too much wind drag and all. :D

I dunno, my mental image just made me think there might be a whole new kind of no-touch throw discovered here. :p Combined with your many past comments regarding the joys of cabbage, my mind is whirring with other possibilities too! :yuck: :crazy: :D

stan baker
08-08-2011, 11:11 PM
Mike
You are a joke you do not know chen taiji and you do not know his
students. When Wang comes to my place this fall come on over we will see what he thinks.

stan

mathewjgano
08-08-2011, 11:35 PM
What does one say to this? I'm caught between laughing and sighing. It's getting frustrating to hear the same bullshit over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.
I know I don't exactly command respect from you guys, but please quit it with the needling bullshit. What f-ing point are you trying to serve? You're not only wasting your time, but other people's. Is this some sort of ploy to keep people from having an interest in these discussions, because despite my usual gluttony for punishment, I'm losing interest and respect.
For what little it's apparently worth,
Matt

Janet Rosen
08-08-2011, 11:44 PM
I dunno, my mental image just made me think there might be a whole new kind of no-touch throw discovered here. :p Combined with your many past comments regarding the joys of cabbage, my mind is whirring with other possibilities too! :yuck: :crazy: :D

Sheesh maybe I should just post my kimchee recipe here....:)

Lorel Latorilla
08-08-2011, 11:50 PM
Nor in yours...Make no mistake If there is one consistency in every negative attack posted here in the last three years in any thread you've posted in or started it's that you're an active participant.

On my ignore list from this point forward.

William Hazen

Plus 1!

mathewjgano
08-08-2011, 11:52 PM
Sheesh maybe I should just post my kimchee recipe here....:)

:D I think it might be more fruitful! Kimchee kimchee, the musical fruit, the more you eat the more you...generate, uh, internal forces.
By the way, thank you for the levity, Janet and Phi. I might be a bit more susceptible to these games than usual. I don't get much sleep these days and my wife tells me I'm a little less perfect (not her exact words:uch: ) when I'm sleep deprived.

graham christian
08-09-2011, 10:21 AM
What does one say to this? I'm caught between laughing and sighing. It's getting frustrating to hear the same bullshit over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.
I know I don't exactly command respect from you guys, but please quit it with the needling bullshit. What f-ing point are you trying to serve? You're not only wasting your time, but other people's. Is this some sort of ploy to keep people from having an interest in these discussions, because despite my usual gluttony for punishment, I'm losing interest and respect.
For what little it's apparently worth,
Matt

Matthew. Just look at it as a whirlwind romance.

Regards.G.

Thomas Campbell
08-09-2011, 11:13 AM
Is this some sort of ploy to keep people from having an interest in these discussions

D'oh. They are trying to keep the secrets under the guise of open discussions pockmarked by faux politesse and paralyzed by personal rancor.

;)

dps
08-09-2011, 11:46 AM
Plus 1!

Plus 2 for both of them.

dps