5+ years with "IP/IT/IS" [Archive] - AikiWeb Aikido Forums

08-03-2011, 10:28 AM

Actually, it hasn't been 5 years yet. I met Dan in Oct of 2006. I wouldn't exactly call that a "training" session.

The next meeting was with Mike Sigman and Rob John and that was a training workshop. That was in Feb 2007.

I trained with Dan in Mar 2007. Workshops attended from Feb 2007 to the present.

With Rob John: 1
With Mike: 2
With Dan: 15

In 4 years and 5 months, I've had 17 seminars. An average of 3-4 per year.

Typically these are 2 day workshops. If we look at 8 hours per day, 2 days, we have 272 hours. Figure an average training week is 3 days at 2 hours a day for 6 hours. I've racked up about 45 training days over 4.5 years.

How far can one progress in that amount of time for Modern Aikido within those parameters? Would one even get past white belt?

I'm more stable now. The only person in aikido who can get me in a joint lock is Bill Gleason. I am getting better so that he has to work at it. :) I've played around with a judo person who outweighed me by 100 pounds and he couldn't throw me. It is much harder to get kuzushi on me.

But, since I stopped training aikido, I haven't actually had the chance to experience just how different I am. In that regard, I'd have to say I'm not really sure. Sorry. Would like to get together with you to talk and play around, but we're on different coasts. I've been thinking about going to a local judo or BJJ school to play just because, like you, I am curious.

As for the others ... if I remember correctly, none of them are at 5 years yet, either. Maybe 4-5 months shy.

The future? Getting better and better. I have progressed and I can tell I am progressing. It's only getting better. I look for the next few years to start generating Internal Power, spirals, kuzushi on contact, asagao, fure aiki, and elbow power.

Holding me back? Me. I just don't do the exercises enough. I don't put enough time into them. In the last 7 months, I haven't done hardly any training. I hate it, too. :) Then again, don't we all when we get like that.

Mark

Demetrio Cereijo

08-03-2011, 10:48 AM

I've been thinking about going to a local judo or BJJ school to play just because, like you, I am curious.

If you go to "play" with a BJJ'er your size and 5 years of training time record it on video please,

I'm curious too.

08-03-2011, 11:30 AM

If you go to "play" with a BJJ'er your size and 5 years of training time record it on video please,

I'm curious too.

Since I have 0 hours training in BJJ, I probably would video it. LOL! Because I have 45 days aiki versus 5 years BJJ. If I could hold my own, that'd be something. :freaky:

08-03-2011, 11:54 AM

I had a math mistake pointed out. I have 45 weeks in training and not days. Workshop total is correct because Rob and Mike did one together.

Gorgeous George

08-03-2011, 11:58 AM

Since I have 0 hours training in BJJ, I probably would video it. LOL! Because I have 45 days aiki versus 5 years BJJ. If I could hold my own, that'd be something. :freaky:

But you could easily nullify the judoka...
Is BJJ completely different from judo?

Demetrio Cereijo

08-03-2011, 12:08 PM

But you could easily nullify the judoka...
If american.

Is BJJ completely different from judo?
Funnier and safer, IME

jester

08-03-2011, 12:15 PM

I've played around with a judo person who outweighed me by 100 pounds and he couldn't throw me. It is much harder to get kuzushi on me.

Were you actively attacking him or just defending?

-

Mike Sigman

08-03-2011, 12:26 PM

The next meeting was with Mike Sigman and Rob John and that was a training workshop. That was in Feb 2007.

If you mean that time a bunch of us met in a parking lot for a get-together/show-and-tell, that wasn't a workshop, as I remember it.

If you mean that show and tell at Jim Sorrentino's that wasn't really a workshop either. That was more like a brief in-service.

Mike

08-03-2011, 12:42 PM

If you mean that time a bunch of us met in a parking lot for a get-together/show-and-tell, that wasn't a workshop, as I remember it.

If you mean that show and tell at Jim Sorrentino's that wasn't really a workshop either. That was more like a brief in-service.

Mike

Yeah, that was the reference. In-service, it is. Wasn't really a true workshop, I agree. But it was more than a meet and greet.

08-03-2011, 12:48 PM

Were you actively attacking him or just defending?

-

Defending. It was just playing around and not tournament kind of serious. Made me curious about going to a judo place, though.

Demetrio Cereijo

08-03-2011, 12:57 PM

So Mark,

How are you going to compare your progress if you don't have experience in serious alive rolling/randori with competent partners?.

gregstec

08-03-2011, 03:31 PM

Like Mark, I am less than five years into the type of IP/IT being discussed around here - about three years with Dan and about four and half years with Howard Popkin and DR aiki - although I have considerably more time and experience with Tohei's ki stuff, I do not consider that the same as the IP/IT from Dan and DR. However, it does provide a good foundation for learning their IP/IT.

So far, I am not faster than a speeding bullet, more powerful than a locomotive, nor able to leap tall buildings in a single bound - maybe next year :D

On a serious note, I do the occasional Aikido seminar and I have found that I am better connected, softer, and more relaxed in technique application - and I have found that there are only three people that I can not stop from taking my balance during waza- those three being Dan, Howard, and Bill Gleason.

Greg

asiawide

08-03-2011, 07:40 PM

My IP/IT/IS experiences are

Aunkai seminar : 2 times (5 hours per seminar)
Rob's coaching : 2 times (about 1 hour per session)
plus valuable info from Neijia forum
Solo training : 1 hour per day. 3~4 times a week since mid 2009.

Results are

1. Got a clue for doing kokyuho/aikiage/or whatever it called
I confess I couldn't do that and got no clues though I've been doing aikido for many years.

2. Easy to stop or nullify nage's techniques though I'm not resisting that much. Fix my dive-bunny habit too.

3. Others grumble that I'm heavier than before.

4. Feel connected when nage/uke push/pull me instatntly.

5. Feel more stable and comfortable in seiza

6. Can detect whether nage/uke is solid or float.

Of course these results are not much helping me to apply techniques to other people. And I'm just an average pain-in-the-ass&hard-to-throw joe in the dojo.

But I believe this baby step is a starting point to get better in the future.

Demetrio Cereijo

08-04-2011, 10:46 AM

In short: no big increases in performance even in a cooperative training environment.

vjw

08-04-2011, 11:13 AM

In short: no big increases in performance even in a cooperative training environment.

He has had just 12 hours of instruction in two years and has made a great effort to work alone. Your remark is very unfair.

Demetrio Cereijo

08-04-2011, 11:27 AM

Unfair?

They were given the holy grail, the key for the awesomeness, the ultimate source of martial power, the door of the mad skillz was opened to them and...

Basically nothing achieved.

Rabih Shanshiry

08-04-2011, 11:31 AM

They were given the holy grail, the key for the awesomeness, the ultimate source of martial power, the door of the mad skillz was opened to them and...

Basically nothing achieved.

El burro hablando de orejas.

Demetrio Cereijo

08-04-2011, 11:33 AM

Sorry, I dont understand mexican insults. Try in Spanish.

Thanks in advance.

Rabih Shanshiry

08-04-2011, 11:36 AM

It wasn't an insult; it was an observation. What greatness have your methods achieved in 35 years of training? Perhaps you should not be so critical of others.

Lorel Latorilla

08-04-2011, 11:43 AM

Unfair?

They were given the holy grail, the key for the awesomeness, the ultimate source of martial power, the door of the mad skillz was opened to them and...

Basically nothing achieved.

Hi Demetrio,

Feeling kinda left out there and bitter there? LOL

Lorel Latorilla

08-04-2011, 11:44 AM

Yeah, Demetrio...what have you gained after training in 35 years? Curious.

Gerardo Torres

08-04-2011, 11:46 AM

Basically nothing achieved.

asiawide wrote:

1. Got a clue for doing kokyuho/aikiage/or whatever it called
I confess I couldn't do that and got no clues though I've been doing aikido for many years.

2. Easy to stop or nullify nage's techniques though I'm not resisting that much. Fix my dive-bunny habit too.

3. Others grumble that I'm heavier than before.

4. Feel connected when nage/uke push/pull me instatntly.

5. Feel more stable and comfortable in seiza

6. Can detect whether nage/uke is solid or float.
After 12 hours instruction and working by himself he got initiated or improved:

- directing energy
- using less muscle
- feeling heavier to partners
- connected body / connection
- became more stable
- increased sensitivity

So nothing eh? I thought these things were kind of important in martial arts.

Demetrio Cereijo

08-04-2011, 11:48 AM

Yeah, Demetrio...what have you gained after training in 35 years? Curious.

Me? Nothing.

A pair of people around... more time in this planet.

08-04-2011, 11:51 AM

Mark did say he was interested in going to a BJJ or judo place, to check on things.
Demetrio, competetive practice aside, what progress would you expect to be described within the cooperative context? Would you agree that the maximum observable progress is something like what Mark, Greg and Jaemin described-- being hard to throw, not having balance taken, etc? I mean it's not like someone is going to say I could never do ikkyo before but since I met Dan now I can ikkyo all day long.

I just mean because in aikido you are generally not stopped from succeeding. In aikido, you can even ikkyo with one finger only-- as long as that is what sensei showed, most of your attempts will work, with or without IP.

Anyway I agree that a more free environment is the real testing ground. Though at some point, you should be able to go to an aikido dojo and have your own internal feedback as to how "well" you are doing, even if it is not something to talk about here (I was able to stay connected through 90% of the movements today, or that kind of thing).

Lorel Latorilla

08-04-2011, 11:52 AM

Me? Nothing.

A pair of people around... more time in this planet.

What an absolute waste of time Demetrio. You should just study BJJ or Judo.

hughrbeyer

08-04-2011, 12:01 PM

In short: no big increases in performance even in a cooperative training environment.

Yep. Nothing to see here. Move right along. Don't waste your time with this stuff.

:rolleyes:

Chris Li

08-04-2011, 12:04 PM

In short: no big increases in performance even in a cooperative training environment.

I'm a long-distance runner. Most people dramatically underestimate the length of time needed to condition the body for any kind of long-distance running.

Depending upon where you're starting from and how far you want to go it may take anywhere from 6 months to 2 years to condition your body to the point where you can really train.

And that's something that's, relatively speaking, quite simple and straight forward.

The kind of conditioning that we're talking about, physically and mentally, is much more difficult.

That said, in a year I've seen some significant improvements - but those are really just baby steps and not as exciting as seeing the possibilities inherent in the training. Most people are in the weeds - no idea where they're going and no idea how to get there.

Best,

Chris

ewolput

08-04-2011, 12:25 PM

I cannot say I am involved in "this" IP kind of training, but if you are repattern your body movement and like to test if you have improved your "aikido" why you have to go to BJJ or Judo?
Maybe you can try a Tomiki Aikido group which is focused on randori and/or shiai. Those people will be very happy to expierence the result of other training tools.
Tomiki aikido people in many cases are very flexible and have the same waza as other aikido styles. They have also some kind of "pushing" waza to throw the opponent.
I can recommend this kind of exchange very much.
Of course if you don't need a format of friendly but competitive testing, that is your choice.

Eddy

NagaBaba

08-04-2011, 12:29 PM

In short: no big increases in performance even in a cooperative training environment.

:D :D :D :D
true, this avenue seems to lead nowhere....

chillzATL

08-04-2011, 12:34 PM

I only have about 1.5 years in this stuff so far and I'd say I've really only had a good understanding of what I'm trying to do for 7-8 months or so. I've never met Dan and have only been to one of Mike's workshops earlier this year. Most of my time has been working with some local people who had trained with Mike and Ark over the years and had skill enough to leave me impressed with the possibilities.

I would pretty much just second what most everyone has said. improved stability as it relates to incoming/outgoing forces, better connected and just an overall improved sensitivity to what other people are doing. In an aikido setting it's hard for people to get kuzushi on me. Depending on the persons skill level I'll do different things to give them a better opportunity at it. In general I can make it more difficult to do everything to me while staying relaxed and not actively resisting.

As it relates to me doing things to them, I'd say everything is just easier. Getting and keeping kuzushi on others is easier and depending on the situation, moving them is easier. I have the luxury of having a few people in class that will come at me hard and strong and won't dive and I use them to measure my progress. When I do things right I can tell in me, but I can also tell in their reactions.

My only outside aikido adventures have been friends with wrestling backgrounds, horsing around when we hang out and watch fights and such and I can give them a hard time and get their balance at times, but that's about it, just goofing around. I recently found an old friend who teaches judo and kyokushin and I'm looking forward to getting together with him and playing around.

The only thing holding me back is, like others said, time. It's just like saying why aren't you better at Tennis or golf? Because I need to practice more. I try to get time in every week, every day even, doing something productive, but it's not a given. Aikido class in general also fills that void because I don't look at time in class as applying these things, but more as a slightly more active environment to continue to practice and condition myself. We do a lot of things in class that make it very easy to practice these things.

disparty of expectations? None. I've experienced only positives and I don't see that stopping. As I've said before, I'm not interested in this to fix my aikido. I've used it to defend myself and I don't think it needed fixing. I see it as adding depth and improving what was already there. Taking it back closer to its roots. again, only positives and that's from someone who considers his skill level at this to be very low overall.

chillzATL

08-04-2011, 12:39 PM

In short: no big increases in performance even in a cooperative training environment.

You would have to be either slow or obviously trolling to read what has been written and come to that conclusion. you don't seem slow, so I'm going to go with trolling. Good attempt though.

Lorel Latorilla

08-04-2011, 12:42 PM

I'm a long-distance runner. Most people dramatically underestimate the length of time needed to condition the body for any kind of long-distance running.

Depending upon where you're starting from and how far you want to go it may take anywhere from 6 months to 2 years to condition your body to the point where you can really train.

And that's something that's, relatively speaking, quite simple and straight forward.

The kind of conditioning that we're talking about, physically and mentally, is much more difficult.

That said, in a year I've seen some significant improvements - but those are really just baby steps and not as exciting as seeing the possibilities inherent in the training. Most people are in the weeds - no idea where they're going and no idea how to get there.

Best,

Chris

I don't know if it's the microwave/quick fix/magic pill mentality, or the sense that "OMG w3 g0t the s3kr3tz to a1k1" sort of advertising that guys like Demetrio perceive, but I'm pretty sure that this stuff takes awhile.

For the reasons that:

1) Asians are notorious for holding back this knowledge from the masses

2) related to 1) is that knowledge of this stuff is not AS public as conditioning in, say, long distance running..with exception to something tangientally related like anatomy trains, rolfing, yoga, etc.

3) Even if Asians have shared knowledge with some people, and those people shared it with some of us, codifying the knowledge into something more phenomenologically accessible is another obstacle in transmitting this knowledge. Whatever descriptors there are of this knowledge, they are couched in unfamiliar, mystical terms.

4) Because of this confusion in terms, for those of us who are doing tanren, there will be a lot of false starts, a lot of mistakes, a lot of bad habits, and re-starting that we make on the way when we train. Obviously, this will slow down our progress even more.

5) On top of all that mess above, there is the process of "re-wiring" our bodies. Bodyskill requires a different way of "moving" so in a sense, we are unlearning old ways of movement, and learning a new way of moving..of course this will take time.

Doing this stuff makes me appreciate seasons in training, and being patient in letting these skills grow. Now, I have a time-line for this stuff (I plan to join the military and use these skills and knowledge to help me in the routine exercises we do in the military), but I don't expect to develop O-sensei like skills in 4 years, and won't be disappointed if I don't. All I know is that if I persevere more, keep an open mind, experiment, keep watering the plant (I like agricultural analogues when I talk about gaining skills), then I will eventually get that knowledge I want. I guess I have faith in attaining this kind of knowledge.

Ellis Amdur

08-04-2011, 01:05 PM

Well, since I've played a role in starting this discussion:
1. I consider myself as being at a scratch-the-surface level - my progress, to date, has been impeded by lack of sufficient hours of training, due to too many work responsibilities. I try to do one-half hour a day, minimum, specific to IT, outside of other training, specific to the martial arts I am responsible for. A second impediment, that held me back way too long, has been sorting out - for myself - what specific training methods best suit my goals (which, aside from the generalities, focus on enhancing the koryu I practice). Even so, and rating myself at a 2 on the 20 scale, based on the power I've felt from experts, it has transformed my practice.
3. In Toda-ha Buko-ryu, there is a basic principle of hajiku, the ability to deflect or control the opponent's weapon with your own. I was taught, along with most of my fellow practitioners to do this with a shift of weight from back foot to front and a lot of arm. Now I find myself able to do this with no weight shift, with relaxed arms. As I said in a previous post, the current soke of the school observed this, asked what I was doing and then asked me to explain how I was training for this to the group in Japan, because "that's better than what we were taught." As this principle permeates THBR, it has revitalized my training - and my interest in training. One of my training partners called me up to tell me that his hips were sore the day after training, the force of my downward strike on his weapon being delivered into his core and kind of "crunching" him back into his hips and waist.
4. In Araki-ryu, the effect has been even more profound. I have been able to make intelligible to my students mechanics of using the body and weapon that I could never teach before, and these, things I could "sort of do," are now exponentially improved. In particular, the ability to use enough power to knock aside a committed training partner's bo with my bo (from another school who is bent on testing the technique), me starting from stationary, with one inch separating of our weapons, he starting with a full power swing, both his weapon and his body recoiling backwards as if running into a wall. My mobility has changed as I have begun to move much more from tanden - and this has effected my ability to adapt/counter when the opponent breaks the kata and attacks at an unexpected angle, particularly with sword. My strikes, in general, have a lot more power, and my body is relaxed - for example, I can do 100 very high speed, powerful suburi, using Araki-ryu cutting principles (http://arakiryu.org/wp/), (see film on this page and on the FAQ) and it is my asthmatic lungs that stop me - I've no fatigue in my shoulders or arms. In kogusoku (our grappling against weaponry), I've been able to relax/drop my body weight into the attacker and due to the relaxation, change directions and stab him before he recovers.
3. I've done almost no aikido for many years, but I did participate in a recent seminar, and found myself able to do rather surprisingly powerful atemi to my uke, initiated from a position of already touching them - powerful enough that I had to be careful to control it so that I didn't hurt them.
4. I have almost no ability yet to utilize these skills in BJJ, as I'm still mostly overwhelmed by the exponentially greater skill level of my instructor, but give me a couple of years, that is, if I work harder than I am now.

I want to be clear that I'm not writing a brag here - I am aware that I have a long way to go. I'm not even close to being an expert. This is to highlight some specific changes to my own practice, something I feel responsible to write as I've had a hand in starting the discussion. My improvement has been held back only by the, up to now, limited time I've devoted to these training exercises, and the very limited opportunities I've had to work with my mentors in this area.

I became intrigued with this subject a number of years ago - I can't recall when I started blogging about this on Aikido Journal - and had been on the periphery (observing great teachers, being NOT taught the real skills in various Chinese martial arts groups). I started seriously training about 3 years ago. My training at that point was at a downward slide, as my accumulated injuries and decreasing athletic abilities, due to age, were taking it's toll. I could see myself in the near future, really becoming a "sensei" - one of those people who talks and teaches and no longer does. This training has not only transformed my skill set, but it has also revitalized my over-all training.

Nonetheless, my improvement is "sectored" - it is mostly specific to the martial arts I've already got skill in. (Using a metaphor from HIPS, I'm adding some new wine to some already solid bottles). My goal, from this point on, is to generalize my skills so that they are not dependent on my knowledge of any specific waza or training pattern (which is no different from IP skills that the teacher can only express with a dive bunny uke).

Ellis Amdur

HL1978

08-04-2011, 02:02 PM

I got my blue belt in BJJ in a year (I will return to BJJ at some point in the future), but I didn't have much more than an understanding of structure with muscle having 3-4 years of experience at the time. That being said, my coach and the other students swore that I weighted 30-40lbs more than I do. I imagine I received my blue in a year more so due to being heavy and being able to listen to my body and my opponents body than mastery of waza and successful submissions.

If Mark was to take up BJJ and you were to see it, you probably would not be impressed. No disrespect intended to Mark as I do not know his level of grappling experience, but I will tell you why based off my experience. If you have IS experience, but are new to grappling, sure you will feel heavy, sure you can get out of positions that are generally considered advantageous for your opponent, sure you will be difficult to throw, but if you don't know any waza you won't be submitting anyone. Eventually your conditioning will break down, and you will get submitted. It will just be a lot longer time than a typical white belt in BJJ. The downside is that your partner might get a bit frustrated and there is a chance for injury due to ego. If you learn a few submissions, that changes things a bit.

If you have access to qijin, you may find competition videos of various people (BJJ, judo, dog brothers etc) , but its not available for public consumption. There is one video which comes to mind (the poster specifically asked not to distribute his videos or name) where the IS guy competes against a guy with 50+lbs and basically can't be thrown or taken down. The bigger guy eventually becomes exhausted from throwing his weight around and pushing and looses by submission. I don't recall that particular posters level of skill other than he definitely understood structure (structure !== IS), but it certainly isn't on par with the guys going around giving seminars.

Now all the below with respect to kendo, may simply be a good understanding of external mechanics and good structural alignment moved around by the lower body and middle torso.

I can hold the center very strongly but without being stiff or using a lot of arm. I can "cut thorough" my opponent's shinai in an ai-men situation by putting more bodyweight into the cut without swinging with more arm. I don't have to step deeper, make a bigger arc, or physically drop lower to achieve this, but doing all three does help. Nor do I have to cut faster to do so. I can knock people around with body strikes to unbalance them leaving them unable to counter, knocking them downwards, upwards, or on an angle. Likewise I can keep my shinai stuck to their shinai denying them openings without having to block. Likewise I can create openings without them feeling a push with my arms. I can disarm an opponents shinai without swinging harder with the arms, or with a big windup.

I don't have much skill at all. Like Ellis I have barely scratched the surface and 5 out of the 6 years I was doing everything completely wrong. Certain muscles got stronger, and I learned how to use structure under pressure, but I wasn't really doing IS. While I can relax my shoulders, they are still too tense, along with my abs. I can't relax enough to utilize the lower tanden and route power out to the arms from the inner thigh/hip area. I open and close incorrectly and don't have sufficient suit conditioning (I can not do a breath powered hit with my hands that would impress anyone). My suit does not extend to the legs. I no longer take loads into my lower back, push with the quads or shoulders. My upper abs and hip area tend to get sore, whereas previously in solo training my quads, shoulders (later the rib care area below the shoulders) would get sore.

This stuff is no magic bullet and you have to work crazy hard to make any progress. Attending a few seminars isn't enough. I really think to make progress you need a dedicated teacher. I've only really made progress since a former Tokyo student moved back to the area.

Something is different as various people can see and feel the difference, but they said that as well during the time period where I was in persuit of IS, but misinterpreted much of what my teacher had said.

DonMagee

08-04-2011, 02:28 PM

Defending. It was just playing around and not tournament kind of serious. Made me curious about going to a judo place, though.

Not to take anything away from your training, but not being thrown by judo players when your not trying to throw them is actually quite easy.

I have no internal training and I'm told by almost every judo player I train with that I'm amazingly hard to throw when I'm not trying to throw them. Now if I could have that ability and still actually toss them around, that would be something.

The only time I get thrown it seems is when I'm countered.

Stand up straight, keep their hips from closing the distance, don't attempt to control them or attack, and don't lock up your body. You are now at least 100% better at not being thrown in judo randori.

Mike Sigman

08-04-2011, 02:47 PM

Personally, I've always thought that with good information and a focused practice, people should be able to have proficient internal-strength skills in reasonably short order. The first big obstacle is good information (teacher), of course, but over the years I've noticed a number of things that contribute to why there is no or little progress:

Difficult to re-train the body.

Fixed preconceptions to what "internal strength" is.

No understanding that basic groundpath jin is the core of I.S.

Incomplete information or information that is limited, leading to errors.

Misleading information due to teachers using the 'buzzwords' (one case in Austria always comes to my mind).

No real understanding of how "suit" and "pressure" are the mainstays of qi strength.

Insufficient practice or practice that is mainly something else.

Not enough self-belief that you can do a lot of it yourself; too reliant upon a "teacher" and not doing the thinking yourself.

Not logically thinking out the how's and why's of the way things work.

My point is mainly that it shouldn't take 5 years or thereabouts, IMO, and if it does, it time to check that training regimen, information, or other things listed above.

FWIW

Mike Sigman

danj

08-04-2011, 10:21 PM

Well, since I've played a role in starting this discussion:
.
3. In Toda-ha Buko-ryu, there is a basic principle of hajiku, the ability to deflect or control the opponent's weapon with your own. I was taught, along with most of my fellow practitioners to do this with a shift of weight from back foot to front and a lot of arm. Now I find myself able to do this with no weight shift, with relaxed arms. ...

Ellis Amdur

hi Ellis,
I discovered recently that weight shifts (as much as 5-10kg) are below the threshold of perception in even experienced practitioners, it also seems to be somewhat supported by the scientific literature (taking licence/interpreting results of recovery of centre of pressure experiments in elite athletes).
So as a request for mor info from your experiences, do you have any view on the idea that a developing nage on the road to IP skills you describe might still be transferring weight, but subtly.

And secondly the result of inducing the subtle transfer of weight of these amounts in uke in the right direction would seem to be enough for a kuzushi that uke could be unaware of

best,
dan

asiawide

08-04-2011, 10:22 PM

Not to take anything away from your training, but not being thrown by judo players when your not trying to throw them is actually quite easy.

I have no internal training and I'm told by almost every judo player I train with that I'm amazingly hard to throw when I'm not trying to throw them. Now if I could have that ability and still actually toss them around, that would be something.

The only time I get thrown it seems is when I'm countered.

Stand up straight, keep their hips from closing the distance, don't attempt to control them or attack, and don't lock up your body. You are now at least 100% better at not being thrown in judo randori.

Yes. it's quite easy. But when you look at the dojo or seminar, everybody is flying. Why is that happening?

And you can be not-throwable without training internal stuffs. The real question is you can teach it to other people.

>Stand up straight, keep their hips from closing the distance,
>don't attempt to control them or attack, and don't lock up your
>body. You are now at least 100% better at not being thrown
>in judo randori.

I guess this is the way you can teach others. I learned almost same thing from my first aunkai seminar. Very easy. But this was a baby step and I can't move other aunkai members.

When I joined aikido seminar later (I also did about half year solo training..) and I stood like that as a uke, what I hear is..

'You're resisting too much!' (I was doing nothing actually.. -.-)
'You're not cooperative!' (I was just standing straight.. -.-)
'You should give me your center.' (why? -.-)

As you said, it's quite easy to stand straight. But the simple thing easily nullify other guys' aikido techniiques. Unlike them, aunkai members(only some years of training..) moved me very easily. So I became interested in aunkai and other internal stuffs too.

ps. I think everything is eventually just SKILL when you master it.

danj

08-04-2011, 11:00 PM

My IP/IT/IS experiences are

Results are

1. Got a clue for doing kokyuho/aikiage/or whatever it called
I confess I couldn't do that and got no clues though I've been doing aikido for many years.
2. Easy to stop or nullify nage's techniques though I'm not resisting that much. Fix my dive-bunny habit too.
3. Others grumble that I'm heavier than before.
4. Feel connected when nage/uke push/pull me instatntly.
5. Feel more stable and comfortable in seiza
6. Can detect whether nage/uke is solid or float.

Of course these results are not much helping me to apply techniques to other people. And I'm just an average pain-in-the-ass&hard-to-throw joe in the dojo.

But I believe this baby step is a starting point to get better in the future.

BTW thanks for sharing your results, nice to see some waypoints for us junior travellers on the road. Some resonate, maybe some don't or are red herrings too but apppreciated

Ellis Amdur

08-05-2011, 12:57 AM

Daniel -- regarding your question on weight shifts, I'm simply not in a position to answer that question. To be sure, there is all this traditional teaching about 5 ounces of force can move 10,000, but I think that is more jujutsu theory (not that aiki and jujutsu cannot take place at the same time).

How about this? Imagine you push forcefully into a wall - and you bounce straight backwards. Imagine you push into the same wall in exactly the same way, and you bounce off at a 45 degree angle. That's what it's like.

Ellis Amdur

danj

08-05-2011, 04:33 AM

bob_stra

08-05-2011, 05:09 AM

Its also quite obvious if you try it against a door. Open a door and stand so that you can place the palm of your hand on edge. Push into the door hard. Then, without slacking off the push, allow the door to rotate away or towards you. Lo and behold, the door will 'move' you as it changes orientation.

Michael Varin

08-05-2011, 06:09 AM

NagaBaba

08-05-2011, 08:08 AM

When I joined aikido seminar later (I also did about half year solo training..) and I stood like that as a uke, what I hear is..

'You're resisting too much!' (I was doing nothing actually.. -.-)
'You're not cooperative!' (I was just standing straight.. -.-)
'You should give me your center.' (why? -.-)

As you said, it's quite easy to stand straight. But the simple thing easily nullify other guys' aikido techniiques. Unlike them, aunkai members(only some years of training..) moved me very easily. So I became interested in aunkai and other internal stuffs too.

ps. I think everything is eventually just SKILL when you master it.
And you think because you can't be thrown by some aikibunny aikidoka makes you better martial artist?
hahahahahaha
Man, you are living in illusionary world. Being immobile is the worst solution in actual fight. 5 years to develop being ‘heavy” uke???? This is the worst teaching method I’ve ever seen. This mumba bumba IP is a real disaster.

Tom H.

08-05-2011, 10:39 AM

Being immobile is the worst solution in actual fight.
You may be thinking of that kind of powerful root that plants you solidly, but also takes away your ability to move. That is a different thing, and as you observe, not very martial. Mark and others here are talking about something else.

If your IP/aiki is sufficiently developed, then a person trying to move you cannot; he feels you are immobile like a brick wall. Conversely, when you do move, he cannot stop you. Even when you appear immobile to the other guy you are, in fact, completely free to move because your stillness and motion become the same thing and the tradeoff between "rooted" and "mobile" dissapears. You develop the ability to completely disregard his attemps to move or pin you if you like. This quality starts small, like a weak muscle, but grows with training.

I say this based on my personal experience. (I started training regularly with Dan around 2006 with very little martial background. I am still not a fighter, but I have felt a large number of people at various seminars, from aikido to experienced fighters who are interested in IP/aiki because they see martial relevance).

08-05-2011, 10:47 AM

And you think because you can't be thrown by some aikibunny aikidoka makes you better martial artist?
hahahahahaha
Man, you are living in illusionary world. Being immobile is the worst solution in actual fight. 5 years to develop being ‘heavy" uke???? This is the worst teaching method I've ever seen. This mumba bumba IP is a real disaster.

If it's all mumba humba to you, that's fine with me. You have your training, I have mine. No big deal.

But, if you want to participate in discussions, then my suggestion would be to ask pertinent questions and do research on the topics at hand.

For example, quite a few of us have stated in the past that we aren't "immobile" in the sense of just standing there rock solid. We are "immobile" in that we can withstand varying forces without being *forced* to move. The static test is actually the best way to test his because if you're moving, it's too easy to rely on timing to fake this ability.

Joint locks. So, how long has it taken you to negate joint locks? Or can you? From say, 4th-6th dan aikido people? And still remain very mobile -- and *no* that doesn't mean you are relying on any kind of movement (arm, body, wrist, hand, etc) to negate the joint lock, you can negate it from either static or dynamic.

If Mark was to take up BJJ and you were to see it, you probably would not be impressed. No disrespect intended to Mark as I do not know his level of grappling experience, but I will tell you why based off my experience. If you have IS experience, but are new to grappling, sure you will feel heavy, sure you can get out of positions that are generally considered advantageous for your opponent, sure you will be difficult to throw, but if you don't know any waza you won't be submitting anyone. Eventually your conditioning will break down, and you will get submitted. It will just be a lot longer time than a typical white belt in BJJ. The downside is that your partner might get a bit frustrated and there is a chance for injury due to ego. If you learn a few submissions, that changes things a bit.

None taken. I think the same thing considering I have 0 hours training in BJJ. What I'm looking for is for people at BJJ to look at me and tell me that I don't move/act/feel like "normal" people. And to be harder than "normal" to submit. :)

In short: no big increases in performance even in a cooperative training environment.

Actually, there are. But most people want proof or video ... Tell me, Demetrio, how will *you* determine my progress if you've never seen me, trained with me, etc before I started IP/aiki? See the dilemna? Not just for you but for everyone.

A question was asked. Some of us answered. Up to you (plural) to either believe or not. Being hesitant and having a healthy dose of disbelief is great. Being a troll about it (not saying you are, this is in general), though, is not.

Fred Little

08-05-2011, 10:55 AM

Lorel Latorilla

08-05-2011, 11:00 AM

Sczepan and Demetrio are getting pretty close to getting ignored. It is highly recommended that they are ignored.

phitruong

08-05-2011, 11:05 AM

How about this? Imagine you push forcefully into a wall - and you bounce straight backwards. Imagine you push into the same wall in exactly the same way, and you bounce off at a 45 degree angle. That's what it's like.

Ellis Amdur

the term Ikeda sensei used to describe this is "kata". he said there is a second meaning of "kata" which is different from the normal one. he essentially stated that you changed your inside, i.e. aligned your center in a configuration ahead of time, when a force applies, that particular force conforms to your configuration. using your example, sort of setting your center to tilt the wall at a 45 degree angle. or another example would be shomen uchi ikkyo where you setup your inside (center, internal intestine, spleen, and kidney, and the sandwich you just ate) in the shape of ikkyo, but outward physically you have not moved yet, so when the strike comes, the strike will get deflected into the ikkyo direction that you previously setup. this is the pro-active approach which is sen sen no sen. Ikeda sensei called this "kata".

just thought i threw that in as i remembered from the recent seminar with Ikeda sensei.

gregstec

08-05-2011, 11:09 AM

Sczepan and Demetrio are getting pretty close to getting ignored. It is highly recommended that they are ignored.

Who you talking about ? :)

Greg

Budd

08-05-2011, 11:25 AM

the term Ikeda sensei used to describe this is "kata". he said there is a second meaning of "kata" which is different from the normal one. he essentially stated that you changed your inside, i.e. aligned your center in a configuration ahead of time, when a force applies, that particular force conforms to your configuration. using your example, sort of setting your center to tilt the wall at a 45 degree angle. or another example would be shomen uchi ikkyo where you setup your inside (center, internal intestine, spleen, and kidney, and the sandwich you just ate) in the shape of ikkyo, but outward physically you have not moved yet, so when the strike comes, the strike will get deflected into the ikkyo direction that you previously setup. this is the pro-active approach which is sen sen no sen. Ikeda sensei called this "kata".

just thought i threw that in as i remembered from the recent seminar with Ikeda sensei.

This is a great nugget, thanks Phi. I believe Chen Bing has said something similar in regards to "changing inside" to deal with external forces.

Lorel Latorilla

08-05-2011, 11:27 AM

Who you talking about ? :)

Greg

Ha! Nice

Budd

08-05-2011, 11:28 AM

Sczepan and Demetrio are getting pretty close to getting ignored. It is highly recommended that they are ignored.

I don't usually speak about personalities, but I think just because someone says something you don't agree with (or don't find productive) that we need to call for folks to rally for or against like a wolfpack. This is a public forum. People will contribute as they will or will not. It's up to each of us to filter their comments as we will and choose whether or not to respond.

I've known Demetrio through the web for some time and I don't think he's coming from a bad place. I'd encourage him to get hands on time with one of the folks showing "this stuff", but I also think he raises good questions regarding the overall "place" of "this stuff" in the big picture.

Nicholas Eschenbruch

08-05-2011, 11:49 AM

I don't usually speak about personalities, but I think just because someone says something you don't agree with (or don't find productive) that we need to call for folks to rally for or against like a wolfpack. This is a public forum. People will contribute as they will or will not. It's up to each of us to filter their comments as we will and choose whether or not to respond.

I've known Demetrio through the web for some time and I don't think he's coming from a bad place. I'd encourage him to get hands on time with one of the folks showing "this stuff", but I also think he raises good questions regarding the overall "place" of "this stuff" in the big picture.

+1
Appreciate them both a lot.

08-05-2011, 12:14 PM

You may be thinking of that kind of powerful root that plants you solidly, but also takes away your ability to move. That is a different thing, and as you observe, not very martial. Mark and others here are talking about something else.

If your IP/aiki is sufficiently developed, then a person trying to move you cannot; he feels you are immobile like a brick wall. Conversely, when you do move, he cannot stop you. Even when you appear immobile to the other guy you are, in fact, completely free to move because your stillness and motion become the same thing and the tradeoff between "rooted" and "mobile" dissapears. You develop the ability to completely disregard his attemps to move or pin you if you like. This quality starts small, like a weak muscle, but grows with training.

I say this based on my personal experience. (I started training regularly with Dan around 2006 with very little martial background. I am still not a fighter, but I have felt a large number of people at various seminars, from aikido to experienced fighters who are interested in IP/aiki because they see martial relevance).
Those are good talking points, Tom. I don't think many people who are training this stuff (as it seems to be being called here) have had exposure to IT training that was presented to Traditional artists and fighters and actually worked and was judged to have worth by both groups.
That may be due to the failure of some of those demonstrating this stuff to be able to adequately demonstrate its value past a single art or single platform, (not being capable or familiar enough with more broad ranging skills to make their case) or maybe they don't know how to really teach applicable skills at their current level. I know this has been a continuing problem with expert teachers from the ICMA and JMA. They had power, but it is shown with rather antiquated and marginal uses. Some of those teachers are trying to get a handle on better cross platform applicability. It remains to be seen if they give a rip about any real teaching of these skills though.

Good luck with debating it here.
In the fullness of time, all will be revealed. Those who turned out to be not very good teachers, or who really only had a fair to middling handle on the material/ Those who can do and teach and had good material that was relevant, and also those who like to "say" they are training it and are lazy and full or B.S. and not doing the work anyway, regardless of whether they had good material or not!!

All the best
Dan

Budd

08-05-2011, 12:26 PM

I'll pitch in here, as well.

I met Dan in July of 2007 for part of an afternoon at the dojo in his barn. Prior to that, I'd only seen/heard a little about the IS stuff that Ellis was interested in when he'd visit Itten Dojo. What I felt from Dan was definitely something I hadn't seen/felt before, after years practicing aikido, judo, wrestling and karate (as well as playing a bit with boxers, kickboxers and bjj guys within their schools/gyms).

At the time, I didn't have any frame of reference for it, other than it was different and was more the "aiki" as what had been promised in aikido with very obvious martial and practical applications. He was harder to throw (yet not rigid and unyielding), could hit hard with minimal windup, could generate force from strange angles. And this was under some pressure testing.

So at this point, I got very interested in practicing some beginner conditioning exercises that Dan showed. I get a chance to help host Mike at Itten for a seminar and I get even more interested in the "how's it work" aspect. I start training IS exercises A LOT. My power increases A LOT. Joint locks and off-balancing techniques get a lot more difficult to put on me when I'm just being "me" (i.e. not resisting, just staying connected). I also lose thirty pounds of mass yet am stronger and harder to handle (and I was no slouch before, not braggin just sayin).

An aside - this whole "immoveable" thing - it's a very basic beginners foot in the door. The first pass through can make it seem like you're being rigid, then you learn to relax and still be hard to move, then you feel hard to move while you are "moving". Then you feel empty when someone tries to put power in you and you can return it to cast them away (by being/mentally directing their power and your connection with them, the ground and how gravity acts on you as you better condition your body to handle these inputs) or suck them in or combine the two aspects. At this point it's a tactical application of your skill/conditioning into a more freestyle/pressure testing environment.

Several years later, I've continued to work on these things with people as I'm able. Moved to a new state, not actively practicing aikido in a dojo (though very much training Ellis's take on the basic vectors/shapes of "aikido" as how I express "aiki"), have played tourist in mma gyms, bjj schools and a fencing academy. I am in a strange place where I feel like I've been focusing so exclusively on the baseline skills of ki and jin, that I continue to keep looking at how to incorporate them into more "live" settings and overall fitness (it's something I naturally do already to an extent, just working on tuning and making it more pure and in synch).

But because the mma/bjj joints I visit are either teaching you an art from the beginner foundation on up (which is great for learning the art) or are just throwing you in to spar (which is also good for just banging) - it's not helping me as much with my practice/training/conditioning in IS and continuing to wire/build my body (it's a LOT of work, takes a lot of mental effort, is hard and requires some smarts/honesty in continuous assessment).

When I spar or roll, depending on how I play, I can stall guys that are much, much better than I (similar to how others have explained it) in a very relaxed way in grappling. I've decided I need to up my overall conditioning game from an athletic performance persective (more circuit training, cardio, looking into Crossfit) but make sure it's in ways that do not run counter to the IS skill/training. But I perform at a level that surprises the young guys fighting in casino shows when they square up with my increasingly silver-haired self (and while I'd never call myself an orthodox MMA player, I just still maintain it's one of the best milieaus for exploring H2H engagements in a fairly safe setting).

At the end of the day (IMO) IS is a mind/body skill expressed as a conditioned type of physical strength. Really good guys doing it feel "weird". For a couple years, now, I've been able to hit much harder, kick much harder. Lately, I can do it from weird positions (ground and pound and clinch striking gets much more interesting - normal kickboxing range is still not my cup of tea, but I'm short-ish with short limbs, so I cope). I haven't formally trained weapons in a while, but the oft spoken-to notion of your center in your hands, extending out the tip of your sword/stick, becomes a much clearer physical reality the more conditioned your body becomes from an IS perspective - finding this just as I goof around with them or step through old routines.

So all that said - while it hasn't been a goal to objectively measure performance in bjj/mma since starting IS investigations, I can say with confidence that I bring more to the table than I did before (beyond just improving with time as I'm still a "drop-in" at an irregular rate). I think I need to start a study group of some kind (doing who-knows-what) just so I can dedicate some practice to IS expressed through some physical paired exercises. I may start attending some aikido and judo classes to see if I can get some of that there as well - though my experience has been that the instructors spend more time "fixing" you to their model (been on both sides of that one) so we'll see.

I'm in the process of buying a house, so hopeful I can turn the basement into a nice exercise/training area (equipment, mats, bags, oh my). But also looking into a local community center about starting a study group - not even sure what to call it, or what the curriculum might be, but basically I want some regular training partners!

Okay, I'm mostly done. Oh, also, the back and knee ailments from judo/wrestling/aikido?? Much, much better since I started training IS, lost weight, improved a lot of postural/structural stuffs. So from a martial performance perspective, seeing improvements, yup. From an overall quality of life, perspective, seeing lots of improvements, YUP. So where my interest lies in an overall "self cultivation" perspective, this stuff is the shiznit.

08-05-2011, 12:32 PM

+1
Appreciate them both a lot.
Agreed
Detractors can remind people they have to present credible cases. And it works both ways. I no longer have confidence that words and well crafted arguments, proves the validity of physical skills, In fact in many cases it masks what in reality are lack luster skills. Moreover, as we can see with these discussions, even the increasing number of Shihan and senior teachers and Menkyo who are embracing it has no value to certain types of people in the discussion.
I am convinced that were the entire world to shift to this method you would still have people muscling their way through and convinced they were doing the same thing, or it was all mumbo jumbo because, well, after all, they don't understand something that has been around since the inception of the martial arts and they didn't know it.
For me it is the nature or quality of the argument that I pay attention to.

You can always ponder just how effective a debate would prove to be with here with the likes of: Ikeda, Sam Chin, LCD, CXW, HJB, Chiba, or Rickson. Anyone of whom has used etherial language and their own proprietary terms, and several of whom have argued that other experts misunderstood well known concepts.

Dan

Lorel Latorilla

08-05-2011, 01:02 PM

08-05-2011, 01:26 PM

Phi Truong wrote:
the term Ikeda sensei used to describe this is "kata". he said there is a second meaning of "kata" which is different from the normal one. he essentially stated that you changed your inside, i.e. aligned your center in a configuration ahead of time, when a force applies, that particular force conforms to your configuration. using your example, sort of setting your center to tilt the wall at a 45 degree angle. or another example would be shomen uchi ikkyo where you setup your inside (center, internal intestine, spleen, and kidney, and the sandwich you just ate) in the shape of ikkyo, but outward physically you have not moved yet, so when the strike comes, the strike will get deflected into the ikkyo direction that you previously setup. this is the pro-active approach which is sen sen no sen. Ikeda sensei called this "kata".

just thought i threw that in as i remembered from the recent seminar with Ikeda sensei.

This is a great nugget, thanks Phi. I believe Chen Bing has said something similar in regards to "changing inside" to deal with external forces.
I think were you to ask him for greater clarification you would find he was talking about shaping a response ....only...in kata.
I have taught a similar thing to a bunch of his students; using each move as a standing posture to be fully expressed within (there are many levels of how that can train the mind/body). Then you start back at the beginning and project into each movement/phase and then make it a fluid continuum.
This is not the way to fight but only to train to eliminate flaws in movement. It trains your body to move across space and respond correctly only in as much as you understood and trained certain things correctly. In reality you would have to have progressed into a fluid mind, fluid body and all the typical timing/ reaction/ distance/vectoring.. blah blah that comes with good budo.

In any event saying "Change your inside" is a very poor description and doesn't really help much. There are specific things to do in order to do that. WIth any teacher, who really knows how much they know or how efficiently they are doing.... what?

As far as postures; the goal is that over time:
posture (meaning erect state)
postures (meaning angles and approaches),
become greatly reduced or needed, the body can be very relaxed and fluid in itself highly responsive and yet fully expressed. This leads to having forces cancel on the surface of any part of your body, and gaining kuzushi on contact and them being manipulated on contact.
Cheers
Dan

Budd

08-05-2011, 01:33 PM

I think were you to ask him for greater clarification you would find he was talking about shaping a response ....only...in kata.
I have taught a similar thing to a bunch of his students; using each move as a standing posture to be fully expressed within (there are many levels of how that can train the mind/body). Then you start back at the beginning and project into each movement/phase and then make it a fluid continuum.
This is not the way to fight but only to train to eliminate flaws in movement. It trains your body to move across space and respond correctly only in as much as you understood and trained certain things correctly. In reality you would have to have progressed into a fluid mind, fluid body and all the typical timing/ reaction/ distance/vectoring.. blah blah that comes with good budo.

In any event saying "Change your inside" is a very poor description and doesn't really help much. There are specific things to do in order to do that. WIth any teacher, who really knows how much they know or how efficiently they are doing.... what?

As far as postures; the goal is that over time:
posture (meaning erect state)
postures (meaning angles and approaches),
become greatly reduced or needed, the body can be very relaxed and fluid in itself highly responsive and yet fully expressed. This leads to having forces cancel on the surface of any part of your body, and gaining kuzushi on contact and them being manipulated on contact.
Cheers
Dan

No argument in the above, but like you alluded to yourself, you gotta start somewhere.