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Rabih Shanshiry
07-29-2011, 01:00 PM
It was referenced in this thread (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20103) that Ueshiba said "Aikido is Elbow Power."

In Yoshinkan Aikido, two of the six foundational solo exercises are "Elbow Power #1" and "Elbow Power #2" [Hiriki no Yosei ichi & ni].

What IS elbow power?? And why is it so important that Ueshiba would have equated it with Aikido?

jss
07-29-2011, 03:49 PM
Are there any references of Ueshiba to elbow power? Or is that just Shioda?

Chris Li
07-29-2011, 06:45 PM
Are there any references of Ueshiba to elbow power? Or is that just Shioda?

I believe that it's mentioned in "Budo" as a secret technique with no explanation or photograph. It's also common to hear it referred to, I believe, in Chinese internal martial arts.

Best,

Chris

Janet Rosen
07-30-2011, 12:18 AM
I believe that it's mentioned in "Budo" as a secret technique with no explanation or photograph. It's also common to hear it referred to, I believe, in Chinese internal martial arts.

Best,

Chris

Dunno about internal arts but anybody who rides the 30-Stockton bus thru Chinatown will testify as to the external proficiency of little old ladies' Elbow Power! Even this Brooklyn budobabe is awed. :-)

lbb
07-30-2011, 05:20 AM
As someone once said to me back in my taekwondo days, "The elbow always wins."

Lee Salzman
07-30-2011, 05:38 AM
It was referenced in this thread (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20103) that Ueshiba said "Aikido is Elbow Power."

In Yoshinkan Aikido, two of the six foundational solo exercises are "Elbow Power #1" and "Elbow Power #2" [Hiriki no Yosei ichi & ni].

What IS elbow power?? And why is it so important that Ueshiba would have equated it with Aikido?

In this Gozo Shioda interview here (http://www.yoshinkan-aikido.com/interview.htm), he states:


Yoshinkan Technical Method How was the original teaching method of Yoshinkan Aikido developed? I know that Ueshiba Sensei's techniques were wonderful, but what he did one day was completely different from the day before. Since Ueshiba Sensei did whatever came into his mind, those who were training watched what he was doing without understanding. There were nothing at all like the basics we do today. He would do whatever came to his mind.

But if you try to teach beginners that way, no one will learn. So I thought I had to systematize these techniques when I started teaching at the Nippon Kokan Steel Company. I began to analyze the techniques and develop a teaching system, synthesizing what I had learned up until then. Then I also organized the applications of techniques. I examined the old techniques I had learned.

Did anyone in particular assist you when you were developing your teaching method? When Kyoichi Inoue was a young student I tried out various things directly on him and developed the system. So, for example, I developed things like hiriki no yosei [elbow power development] and also assigned names.

You also assigned names? Yes. I also decided on the names. Maybe you could say they are somewhat arbitrary.

Doesn't really state what it is, but at least it clarifies that as a distinct training principle, it seems to be something Gozo Shioda isolated for the Yoshinkan system.

graham christian
07-30-2011, 11:46 AM
I don't know about it being a basic but it is something you become more aware of and it's usage.

However tnere is a guy who took to it and developed Hiriki Aikido.

You can look it up on google. Here's a vid.

http://youtu.be/SLZnLg13p3Y

Regards.G.

DH
07-30-2011, 01:13 PM
I don't know about it being a basic but it is something you become more aware of and it's usage.

However tnere is a guy who took to it and developed Hiriki Aikido.

You can look it up on google. Here's a vid.

http://youtu.be/SLZnLg13p3Y

Regards.G.
That ain't it. Graham, you don't even enter the ballpark with this video or your own.
What elbow power actually is, isn't that simple, or crude, it is rather sophisticated and involves whole body use to enhance aiki....
I haven't personally seen it or felt it expressed in aikido....yet.

Dan

graham christian
07-30-2011, 01:30 PM
That ain't it. Graham, you don't even enter the ballpark with this video or your own.
What elbow power actually is, isn't that simple, or crude, it is rather sophisticated and involves whole body use to enhance aiki....
I haven't personally seen it or felt it expressed in aikido....yet.

Dan

Dan, give me some elbow room please. I didn't say that was it, I pointed out a guy who does what he says is it.

I know the ballpark thanks. Shame you haven't seen it expressed or used in Aikido.

Regards.G.

DH
07-30-2011, 01:37 PM
Dan, give me some elbow room please. I didn't say that was it, I pointed out a guy who does what he says is it.
I know the ballpark thanks. Shame you haven't seen it expressed or used in Aikido.

Regards.G.
Odd that you say you know yet it doesn't appear anywhere in your movement. It should be in everything you do, all that you do. Since it is not expressed in anything that you do...one would naturally ask why is that?
Dan

graham christian
07-30-2011, 01:45 PM
Odd that you say you know yet it doesn't appear anywhere in your movement. It should be in everything you do, all that you do. Since it is not expressed in anything that you do...one would naturally ask why is that?
Dan

So elbow power, or your take on it, should be in all my movements?

I find that a very strange thing to say.

I do indeed ask naturally why you can't see what I'm doing. I also ask why is that?

Regards.G.

Adam Huss
07-30-2011, 04:22 PM
Elbow power is an idea, a principle and technique praticed in the kihon dosa of the Yoshinkan. It teaches one to use their whole body behind an arm movement, unifying and focusing power. Hiriki no yosei dai ni is the same thing, but adds a shifting movement. While the exact visual representation of elbow power may not be seen in every aikido techniques, the principal behind it can often be pointed out in a variety of movements.

I can't see the video, but there are some good vids of kihon dosa on the 'ole Youtube. Kihon Dosa to Kanren Waza is a great little montage of the kihon dosa coupled with a prac app technique.

DH
07-30-2011, 04:33 PM
So elbow power, or your take on it, should be in all my movements?
I find that a very strange thing to say.
Regards.G.
It's because you really don't know what it is yet, Graham. That's okay, I'm sure you're having fun, there's no requirement that you do higher level stuff than what you know or are ready for.
All in due time..
Dan

graham christian
07-30-2011, 05:22 PM
It's because you really don't know what it is yet, Graham. That's okay, I'm sure you're having fun, there's no requirement that you do higher level stuff than what you know or are ready for.
All in due time..
Dan

Harmony is true power. Lest we forget.

Assigning power to a body part I'll leave to you.

Regards.G.

Carsten Möllering
07-31-2011, 04:39 AM
So elbow power, or your take on it, should be in all my movements?
I think it should. As far as I understood what I heard and read about it - I'm not doing Yoshinkan aikido, only met some people - hiriki is something which is included, or at least should be included always in any style of aikido.
I think it is just that different teachers focus on different terms and different methods of teaching to express and teach their certain understanding or interrests.

To be sure I looked it up again this morning in "Total Aikido" of Shioda Gozo. We don't to his two exercises shown there to be fundamental training methods. But I think, we always practice and train what they want to teach.
Or better what I think they want to teach: Transfering your (breath) power from the tanden (often referred to but not identical with "the hips") into and through your arms.

As a simple, practical advice we often say: "Don't lift your hand with your arm. Let uke have/hold your hand and lift your elbows with your hips (there is a connection). And have some energy just in your fingertips."
There is much more to say and learn about the tanden, the shoulders, especially the legs. All this is involved.

But as far as I understand hiriki is about the whole body being connected and transferring power through the elbows. We have our hands relaxed alway and we very seldom grab uke. So what I understand as elbow power is always part of our aikido.
And working with the sword it simply is what moves the sword. Not the hands, not the shoulders.

graham christian
07-31-2011, 07:34 AM
I think it should. As far as I understood what I heard and read about it - I'm not doing Yoshinkan aikido, only met some people - hiriki is something which is included, or at least should be included always in any style of aikido.
I think it is just that different teachers focus on different terms and different methods of teaching to express and teach their certain understanding or interrests.

To be sure I looked it up again this morning in "Total Aikido" of Shioda Gozo. We don't to his two exercises shown there to be fundamental training methods. But I think, we always practice and train what they want to teach.
Or better what I think they want to teach: Transfering your (breath) power from the tanden (often referred to but not identical with "the hips") into and through your arms.

As a simple, practical advice we often say: "Don't lift your hand with your arm. Let uke have/hold your hand and lift your elbows with your hips (there is a connection). And have some energy just in your fingertips."
There is much more to say and learn about the tanden, the shoulders, especially the legs. All this is involved.

But as far as I understand hiriki is about the whole body being connected and transferring power through the elbows. We have our hands relaxed alway and we very seldom grab uke. So what I understand as elbow power is always part of our aikido.
And working with the sword it simply is what moves the sword. Not the hands, not the shoulders.

Hi Carsten.
I agree. Not having trained in Yoshinkan I havn't maybe had it as a basic principle as they do but I do understand and use it as you describe. This comes about through two reasons from my training.

1) The continuous use of weight underside.
2) Leading Ki.

Of course people pointing out all the time that it's based on all parts being connected applies to all moves so I don't get the significance there. It should be taught from day one.

There are many aspects to the use of the elbow the most basic being it should not be sticking out except when leading. This as you say is especially important in sword work.

In the early days my teacher would hit the elbow with the bokken every time it wasn't tucked in. As far as cutting goes I think you'll find it's not only the elbow that leads but together with the knee and foot.

For me in tight situations the elbow is merely as if I have a short arm and so is like using tegatana.

Regards.G.

Carsten Möllering
07-31-2011, 07:45 AM
Found something on youtube:
Elbow power basic excercises (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qvOPjxprXY&feature=player_detailpage#t=59s)

Lee Salzman
07-31-2011, 08:00 AM
Found something on youtube:
Elbow power basic excercises (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qvOPjxprXY&feature=player_detailpage#t=59s)

One thing that always strikes me as odd in a lot of videos like this, why does the back leg get dragged around like a heavy piece of carry-on luggage? How does this help with power and mobility?

Anthony Loeppert
07-31-2011, 08:50 AM
One thing that always strikes me as odd in a lot of videos like this, why does the back leg get dragged around like a heavy piece of carry-on luggage? How does this help with power and mobility?

It isn't the luggage it is the engine ( or as least a transmission if I'm getting my Aikido / car analogy right) and anchor (ok so cars don't anchors) at different moments.

First, for power and mobility. As the leg is kept straight the, for lack of a better word, 'slack' is out of the system. So as in all good Aikido, the movement originates at the hips so even a small 'flick' of the hips due to the nature of the leg's connection to the ground translates (extremely efficiently) into force which can be focused, like the way in the exercise show. So what is holding up whatever force you're not supposed to try to lift with your arm? That same straight back leg, you should feel the weight on the arm in the back toes.

What slows you down from a really spirited shuffle and allows the upper posture to remain consistent without making the front knee work hard? Good old, always there straight back leg.

My take on it anyway as a 3 year Yoshinkan practitioner.

Basically always on connection to the ground.

Aikibu
07-31-2011, 11:53 AM
That ain't it. Graham, you don't even enter the ballpark with this video or your own.
What elbow power actually is, isn't that simple, or crude, it is rather sophisticated and involves whole body use to enhance aiki....
I haven't personally seen it or felt it expressed in aikido....yet.

Dan

While it may not be in the terms of experience you're familiar with Dan. Shoji Nishio emphasized "elbow" power and it is an integral part of our Aikido practice and has been for over 50 years. One of the first things a beginner learns and practices is the elbow kata, which helps them experience and understand that power in techniques "comes from" the elbow. I am sure it's not IP but it is a key component of our practice. :)

William Hazen

Aikibu
07-31-2011, 12:03 PM
Found something on youtube:
Elbow power basic excercises (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qvOPjxprXY&feature=player_detailpage#t=59s)

From our perspective it's nothing like our elbow kata at all. Our toes are pointed in towards uke, and also in our hanmi our feet are under us, not moving more that a half step always in a circular motion. The movements are smaller and more precise.

William Hazen

DH
07-31-2011, 12:37 PM
While it may not be in the terms of experience you're familiar with Dan. Shoji Nishio emphasized "elbow" power and it is an integral part of our Aikido practice and has been for over 50 years. One of the first things a beginner learns and practices is the elbow kata, which helps them experience and understand that power in techniques "comes from" the elbow. I am sure it's not IP but it is a key component of our practice. :)

William Hazen

Hello William
Good to see you back.
Elbow power is part IP and it is also part aiki. As waza...I am uninterested. That stuff just happened after the fact. So getting all hepped up on waza is not a way I would go to understand IP or aiki. None of the uses mentioned cover all three.It is interesting and enternaining to see some peoples fluid and chameleon like changes in their posistion.
All the best
Dan

Lee Salzman
07-31-2011, 12:39 PM
It isn't the luggage it is the engine ( or as least a transmission if I'm getting my Aikido / car analogy right) and anchor (ok so cars don't anchors) at different moments.

First, for power and mobility. As the leg is kept straight the, for lack of a better word, 'slack' is out of the system. So as in all good Aikido, the movement originates at the hips so even a small 'flick' of the hips due to the nature of the leg's connection to the ground translates (extremely efficiently) into force which can be focused, like the way in the exercise show. So what is holding up whatever force you're not supposed to try to lift with your arm? That same straight back leg, you should feel the weight on the arm in the back toes.

What slows you down from a really spirited shuffle and allows the upper posture to remain consistent without making the front knee work hard? Good old, always there straight back leg.

My take on it anyway as a 3 year Yoshinkan practitioner.

Basically always on connection to the ground.

But did this anchoring interpretation come from Gozo Shioda or was this the interpretation of one of Shioda's students? Wouldn't you basically want the engine to never shut off, keep it live, rather than let it sputter off?

JW
07-31-2011, 01:17 PM
I still can't figure out what it means specifically. Everything Carsten said and everything Dan hinted at suggests to me:
elbow power is just another name for the basics of internal strength.

True?
And if true-- we still seem to have different people using the same term to mean non-related things.

Wouldn't you basically want the engine to never shut off, keep it live, rather than let it sputter off?

On this note, I really agree. It sounds more like the use of a parking brake when doing stop-and-go up a hill in a manual transmission than a continual engine engagement. I've watched a lot of Shioda videos and I just don't see him doing that back leg thing. Hey Lee, did you get my email reply to you? Check your spam filter..

Lee Salzman
07-31-2011, 01:31 PM
On this note, I really agree. It sounds more like the use of a parking brake when doing stop-and-go up a hill in a manual transmission than a continual engine engagement. I've watched a lot of Shioda videos and I just don't see him doing that back leg thing.


I don't mean to dispute anyone's direct experience in the Yoshinkan. It's just, yeah, when you look at videos of Shioda, his legs are always moving like live wires, springing and pivoting off the balls of his feet like he was dancing on smoldering lava. I just would like to understand the exercises and why they look so different from how Shioda moves in the end.

Hey Lee, did you get my email reply to you? Check your spam filter..

Possibly got lost in the deluge, man. :( See PM.

graham christian
07-31-2011, 01:44 PM
I still can't figure out what it means specifically. Everything Carsten said and everything Dan hinted at suggests to me:
elbow power is just another name for the basics of internal strength.

True?
And if true-- we still seem to have different people using the same term to mean non-related things.

On this note, I really agree. It sounds more like the use of a parking brake when doing stop-and-go up a hill in a manual transmission than a continual engine engagement. I've watched a lot of Shioda videos and I just don't see him doing that back leg thing. Hey Lee, did you get my email reply to you? Check your spam filter..

Jonathan.
I would say it is not a basic. There are many things to learn about it but that doesn't make it a basic. The basics for me are centre, one point,Ki extension, centre line, koshi, hara and kokyu. Then comes the natural pathways of energy and thus harmonious motion. That's enough to get on with for the first ten years at least.

Regards.G.

JW
07-31-2011, 02:02 PM
Jonathan.
I would say it is not a basic. There are many things to learn about it but that doesn't make it a basic. The basics for me are centre, one point,Ki extension, centre line, koshi, hara and kokyu. Then comes the natural pathways of energy and thus harmonious motion. That's enough to get on with for the first ten years at least.

Regards.G.

Well someday maybe we'll meet and I can see how this list functions. For me, basic = kokyu. Next comes improving the kokyu via ki development. That's obsessed me for 3 years and has gotten some interesting comments from partners. Next.. well I better start meeting others and seeing what amazing stuff they are doing!

ps by kokyu I mean "putting the center into the hands" and that sort of thing, which is why the comments in this thread don't seem to suggest a specific meaning for "elbow power" to me.

Anthony Loeppert
07-31-2011, 02:05 PM
But did this anchoring interpretation come from Gozo Shioda or was this the interpretation of one of Shioda's students? Wouldn't you basically want the engine to never shut off, keep it live, rather than let it sputter off?

It came from me saying it on the internet - and I put my experience in there (3 years) just to say I'm not an expert by any means nor am I a beginner. I definitely do not want to put my words on anyone else.

In the form, the leg stays straight. You don't let it go light and you since you can't bend it (and stay strictly within the form), as the leg is attached, it drags behind and can aid stability because it is always active. If my analogy was poor, then just discard it.

As skill progresses (I'm told), this form becomes less important and is merely a teaching tool, so at the top level like Shioda he would have no need to rely on the basic form to remind and train the body of the fundamentals because he had already mastered them.

I just stick to the form to strive for technical perfection withinit as I'm not a martial genius and couldn't figure out a better way to do it myself. So far no dead ends.

graham christian
07-31-2011, 02:15 PM
Well someday maybe we'll meet and I can see how this list functions. For me, basic = kokyu. Next comes improving the kokyu via ki development. That's obsessed me for 3 years and has gotten some interesting comments from partners. Next.. well I better start meeting others and seeing what amazing stuff they are doing!

ps by kokyu I mean "putting the center into the hands" and that sort of thing, which is why the comments in this thread don't seem to suggest a specific meaning for "elbow power" to me.

O.K. How about this? If that's your reality that's good. So try this: When putting centre into hands put it into tegatana. Now practice cutting in various directions and notice the elbow and what it's doing as part of your action. If you push tegatana upwards for example up your own centre line, like raising a sword, you will notice what happens elbow wise. This could then be called a way of using the elbow but to me it's a result of using tegatana from centre.

Thus I say it's not a basic but it is something to be aware of and if your aware of it you can use it when necessary. But still it's a result of moving from centre or koshi etc.

Regards.G.

gregstec
07-31-2011, 07:32 PM
Let's see, if we follow the energy path from hand to ground, we have hand, elbow, shoulder, center, kua, knee, foot, ground.

To me, elbow power is just a component of the whole structure where energy can be focused - actually, all the other points in between those above can also be a point where energy can be focused depending on what it is you want to accomplish and where the external energy is coming from and where you want to send it - of course, your opinion and mileage may vary :)

Greg

JW
07-31-2011, 07:34 PM
This could then be called a way of using the elbow but to me it's a result of using tegatana from centre.


Well if that's what the term means then I guess I just don't get why it would get a name. For instance, Shioda had terms that translate as things like "center power." Good name, I think. You use your center for everything, so that should be called "center power." But why talk about the elbow if there isn't something at work besides using your center?

gregstec
07-31-2011, 07:59 PM
Well if that's what the term means then I guess I just don't get why it would get a name. For instance, Shioda had terms that translate as things like "center power." Good name, I think. You use your center for everything, so that should be called "center power." But why talk about the elbow if there isn't something at work besides using your center?

There is not anything special other that just another point on the path of a connected body - external folks focus on the physical point of connection for their output of power and forget about the connected body - moving the focus to the elbow from the hand is just one way of getting away from that - albeit that may be more effective, there are other even more effective ways to to accomplish the same thing.

Greg

Janet Rosen
07-31-2011, 09:00 PM
I don't know about that; would love more Yoshinkan input to the thread...only slightly O.T. since Jonathan and I will both be at Labir Day NoCal get-together it would be very cool to have that style represented too.

DH
08-01-2011, 12:27 AM
Well if that's what the term means then I guess I just don't get why it would get a name. For instance, Shioda had terms that translate as things like "center power." Good name, I think. You use your center for everything, so that should be called "center power." But why talk about the elbow if there isn't something at work besides using your center?
Why? Because there are ways to use elbow power different from the center in the hand while still retaining the center in the hand. And it has some very important and useful aspects for aiki arts, grappling, punching as well as weapons.
And like I said...I haven't seen it covered yet in Aikido, Yoshinkan or otherwise. I usually get the deer in headlights look.
FWIW, saying you "use your center for everything" does not imply everyone knows everything. Lots of people say a lot of things...even well known ones. There are plenty of folks who go on and on about breath-power too. And you can hit them and they fall apart or watch them do waza and they're all shoulder, or push or stress them and watch their feet wabble.
I pay less attention to what people say over what they look and feel like. It's amazing how many supposed experts don't do very well when it comes to showing what they told you they know.
Just say'n
Dan

Tim Ruijs
08-01-2011, 04:14 AM
It's amazing how many supposed experts don't do very well when it comes to showing what they told you they know.
Would it be possible to understand something better than one can physically show? Would the title expert reflect their teaching ability/understanding rather than their technical ability?
eveyr soccer coach can play ball with the best of 'em? :dead:

JW
08-01-2011, 11:58 AM
Why? Because there are ways to use elbow power different from the center in the hand while still retaining the center in the hand. And it has some very important and useful aspects for aiki arts, grappling, punching as well as weapons.

Hi Dan, ok this is what I thought. There must be something specific to talk about when something gets its own name.
Is there a video where someone really highlights elbow power? Ueshiba?
I don't want anyone to teach over the net. I just want to know what this term refers to. Is it like using the elbow as a mini dantian? Is it related to "unbendable arm?" Is it some kind of elbow-specific store/release? Is it poking somone in the ribs with the elbow? It's nice to know roughly the type of thing that a term refers to, even if we can't nail down specifics on the net.

jonreading
08-02-2011, 10:27 AM
For me elbows represent an extension of your power and balance structure. If you check out the DRA and aikido budo stuff, shite uses structures that break the connection between uke's arm and his torso. This is often a kuzushi movement because in breaking the connection you destroy uke's balance structure and can seize it. That tells me there is something to maintaining your body's structure by maintaining a connection between your elbow and your torso.

I think the connection is a bridge of transference. I think something that we struggle with in aikido is successfully transferring power into our partner. Our elbows are a bridge of transferring the power from our torso into our hands. I do not recall having seen or heard any of the gooey IP stuff yet hit elbow control in aikido. I can recall several instructors who have always advocated for breaking the connection between the elbow and the torso by extending the elbow beyond its effective range of motion.

I do not think that elbow power is simply sticking your elbow in uke's face. I know far too many good fighters that have no problem with that movement. I think it is more about aligning your shoulder and elbow (and hand) with your body structure to allow your body to accept pressure from the arm and deliver pressure from the torso. I think sayo undo is [more] representative of the internal structure of aligning your body to accept and transfer energy from the ground into your arms, while keeping focus on unified movement between your elbows and your torso. That said, I think sayo undo is not performed the same as it was when it came from aiki budo.

Finally, I think that these discussions are more beneficial when we conduct them under some modesty. As Dan puts it, most us us do not "use our center for everything", nor can it be the answer to every question in aikido - Seriously, we throw that phrase around like the Smurfs use "smurf". This is a great discussion about a significant aspect of our body posture. Yet for all our talk, I have yet to read a conclusive, compelling argument as to what is elbow power. I got my eye on this thread and I am looking forward to some smurfy responses.

phitruong
08-02-2011, 01:24 PM
if aikido is elbow power (not saying that it is or isn't, just what if), and the funny bone is part of the elbow, wouldn't that make aikido funny? and can aikido do stand-up? :D

Janet Rosen
08-02-2011, 01:52 PM
if aikido is elbow power (not saying that it is or isn't, just what if), and the funny bone is part of the elbow, wouldn't that make aikido funny? and can aikido do stand-up? :D

Such a humerus post. Well, my aikido is pretty funny...and it is very stand up. Fall down. Stand up. Fall down. Stand up.

JW
08-02-2011, 02:15 PM
I love stand-up grappling. Gets me doubled over every time!

In other news, this post could help parse out the meaning:
Asagao is a beautiful combining of breath power, the use of fure aiki and elbow power. For the purposes of a drill you can do some interesting things dividing the energy, but every one of those principles are displayed anywhere in the body. Extendin ki into the fingers is meaningless without a developed body and understanding of how to use it.
Dan

Maybe in some Japanese traditions there has been this term "elbow power" to refer to what the Chinese have called "peng" (peng being the upward power of the ground projected through the bones of the body in an expansive fashion)? Fits in with the fact that "kokyu" is not a 1:1 translation with "neijin"-- because "neijin" has variants and skill-subsets that don't have anything to do with "breath." Just speculating here.

observer
08-02-2011, 10:14 PM
We can look at this issue differently. It is said that Aikido is using the opponent's power and is more effective if the attack is fast and strong. Why? Of course, if uke runs like crazy, then after descending upon him from the road and with a simple push, we can expect that he will fall over, or hit his head against the wall. It is a totally different matter when a boxer, standing firmly on his feet punches quickly and strongly. Not to mention, if someone skillful is using a knife at a close range.

So, to be able to take each attack we must practice with a partner in the near distance, gradually increasing the speed of the attacking hand. We have to forget about the movement of the entire body, because in a realistic situation there is no time for that; similarly, overtaking the attack. Response to the attack can only be made by trained reflexes of the deviation of the head or the trunk, and by following the uke's hand by our own hand.

Now, lets talk about the "power of the elbow". Our hand, the forearm actually, performs a circular motion (ude-mawashi) with the elbow almost motionless. In a certain moment it becomes a barrier to the returning uke's hand. There is a clash between our open palm and the uke's base of the wrist, which completely confuses the uke and gives us a fraction of a second to initiate a technique.

Tim Ruijs
08-03-2011, 07:43 AM
if aikido is elbow power (not saying that it is or isn't, just what if), and the funny bone is part of the elbow, wouldn't that make aikido funny? and can aikido do stand-up? :D
we sure know how to ROFL :D

I have read this thread several times and still do not get it. Why the emphasis on the elbow? The only thing I come back to is to have correct posture in your technique. Every body part must be in the right place to do its part, but still the entire body works. Sure given any technique some body parts 'do' more than others, but I cannot seem to relate it to elbow power.
Perhaps the road ahead of me is even more wonderous than I had hoped....

Mike Sigman
08-03-2011, 08:36 AM
For me elbows represent an extension of your power and balance structure. If you check out the DRA and aikido budo stuff, shite uses structures that break the connection between uke's arm and his torso. This is often a kuzushi movement because in breaking the connection you destroy uke's balance structure and can seize it. That tells me there is something to maintaining your body's structure by maintaining a connection between your elbow and your torso.

I think the connection is a bridge of transference. I think something that we struggle with in aikido is successfully transferring power into our partner. Our elbows are a bridge of transferring the power from our torso into our hands. I do not recall having seen or heard any of the gooey IP stuff yet hit elbow control in aikido. I can recall several instructors who have always advocated for breaking the connection between the elbow and the torso by extending the elbow beyond its effective range of motion.

I do not think that elbow power is simply sticking your elbow in uke's face. I know far too many good fighters that have no problem with that movement. I think it is more about aligning your shoulder and elbow (and hand) with your body structure to allow your body to accept pressure from the arm and deliver pressure from the torso. I think sayo undo is [more] representative of the internal structure of aligning your body to accept and transfer energy from the ground into your arms, while keeping focus on unified movement between your elbows and your torso. That said, I think sayo undo is not performed the same as it was when it came from aiki budo.

Finally, I think that these discussions are more beneficial when we conduct them under some modesty. As Dan puts it, most us us do not "use our center for everything", nor can it be the answer to every question in aikido - Seriously, we throw that phrase around like the Smurfs use "smurf". This is a great discussion about a significant aspect of our body posture. Yet for all our talk, I have yet to read a conclusive, compelling argument as to what is elbow power. I got my eye on this thread and I am looking forward to some smurfy responses.

Generally, the power from the ground goes up the legs to hips and dantien and then the shortest path to the point of application. If you try to route the ground power up over the shoulders, you wind up with "normal" strength, not internal strength. Some Chinese styles (particularly southern styles like Wing Chun, Hakka, etc) keep the elbows and forearmsn in that line from the waist in order to maximize the power flow. Here's a translation from one of Tung Ying Chieh's books from the 1940's mentioning the idea:

"To loosen the shoulders and drop the elbows means not to concentrate the
force at the back of the shoulders. Actually, the strength is transmitted
through the upper part of the forearm."


The idea is a fairly common one in a number of Chinese martial-arts.

2 cents.

Mike Sigman

DH
08-03-2011, 09:00 AM
Generally, the power from the ground goes up the legs to hips and dantien and then the shortest path to the point of application. If you try to route the ground power up over the shoulders, you wind up with "normal" strength, not internal strength. Some Chinese styles (particularly southern styles like Wing Chun, Hakka, etc) keep the elbows and forearmsn in that line from the waist in order to maximize the power flow. Here's a translation from one of Tung Ying Chieh's books from the 1940's mentioning the idea:
"To loosen the shoulders and drop the elbows means not to concentrate the force at the back of the shoulders. Actually, the strength is transmitted through the upper part of the forearm."
The idea is a fairly common one in a number of Chinese martial-arts.
2 cents.
Mike Sigman
Not even close. Not even nearly complete. Yet, another idea picked up from a book.
Further, it's not in keeping with what elbow power is in the arts that coined it in Japan. Just another square peg in a round hole. Worth..well...about 2 cents.
Dan

Mike Sigman
08-03-2011, 09:57 AM
Not even close. Not even nearly complete. Yet, another idea picked up from a book.
Further, it's not in keeping with what elbow power is in the arts that coined it in Japan. Just another square peg in a round hole. Worth..well...about 2 cents.
DanHmmmmm.... I just offered it as a suggestion, but all you're saying is "not even close, not nearly complete". So I'm just mentioning it as part of the groundpath controlled on a line by the dantien. Tell me something specific in your debate other thant "not even close". Let me hear a reason it's not even close.

Mike Sigman

jonreading
08-03-2011, 10:13 AM
Thanks Mike, I appreciate the comments. I can feel it, but at this point I have no words to describe it which is where I am stuck. I think your comments start to give myself and others a place to look, even if it's Chinese in origin. And from a book. And wrong. (Sorry, had to throw in those shots, Dan's setup was too good). :) Seriously, I appreciate your comments, this stuff is complex.

I agree with you, I'd like to tease out some comments from Dan on this too. I think they would be valuable. It is a different feeling when you work with someone that can express this type of solidity and power.

Lee Salzman
08-03-2011, 10:14 AM
I love stand-up grappling. Gets me doubled over every time!

In other news, this post could help parse out the meaning:


Asagao is a beautiful combining of breath power, the use of fure aiki and elbow power. For the purposes of a drill you can do some interesting things dividing the energy, but every one of those principles are displayed anywhere in the body. Extendin ki into the fingers is meaningless without a developed body and understanding of how to use it.
Dan


Maybe in some Japanese traditions there has been this term "elbow power" to refer to what the Chinese have called "peng" (peng being the upward power of the ground projected through the bones of the body in an expansive fashion)? Fits in with the fact that "kokyu" is not a 1:1 translation with "neijin"-- because "neijin" has variants and skill-subsets that don't have anything to do with "breath." Just speculating here.

I am not so sure that is what is being said there. Notice that he said that you would need a developed body on top of that, and that is probably more where the analog of what you are calling "peng" there might come in. So take "asagao", take out the aspects of what Dan has labeled "breath power" and "fure aiki", then what is left and conspicuous about "asagao" that he is describing there that might have some commonality with the expression "elbow power"?

jester
08-03-2011, 11:11 AM
Generally, the power from the ground goes up the legs to hips and dantien and then the shortest path to the point of application.

The idea is a fairly common one in a number of Chinese martial-arts.

Mike Sigman

It's a fairly common idea for punching, shooting basketball, knife throwing, opening a door etc.

-

Mike Sigman
08-03-2011, 11:54 AM
Thanks Mike, I appreciate the comments. I can feel it, but at this point I have no words to describe it which is where I am stuck. I think your comments start to give myself and others a place to look, even if it's Chinese in origin. And from a book. And wrong. (Sorry, had to throw in those shots, Dan's setup was too good). :) Seriously, I appreciate your comments, this stuff is complex.

I agree with you, I'd like to tease out some comments from Dan on this too. I think they would be valuable. It is a different feeling when you work with someone that can express this type of solidity and power.Well, there were a couple of threads on the topic that were discussed on QiJin starting back in 2007. There are quotes (in Japanese and English) of comments by Shioda, Sagawa, and Tung. I'm on pretty safe ground, although if you look at my post, I was simply offering an observation, not making a brusque assertion.

Looking back at Dan's comment where no one he's met has ever understood, etc., I see basically that he's *saying* mostly the same thing (what he really does is a question since he has a different interpretation of 'internal strength' than I do), so I'm not sure what the conflict is: we seem to be generally in agreement.

Logically, what Tung is saying is and must be true for Elbow Power.... anyone doing 'something else' isn't using internal strength. The dantien is used to power all movements in real internal strength.... even closing the hand.

2 cents.

Mike Sigman

Mike Sigman
08-03-2011, 04:39 PM
I think your comments start to give myself and others a place to look, even if it's Chinese in origin. And from a book. It's interesting that instead of just making an assertion, I give a credible source and instead of "thanks for the reference" I get snarked on with the idea that I only got if from a book. Trivialization strikes again. ;)

On the other hand, as a separate topic but related, having watched some of the mostly arm-driven "spiralling" in some of the videos of Japanese koryu, D.R., and so forth, maybe some of the discussion about "from the center" is misplaced?

Mike Sigman

aikilouis
08-03-2011, 04:50 PM
The two elbow power exercises are described in detail in Gozo Shioda's book Total Aikido (starting page 32).

NagaBaba
08-03-2011, 09:26 PM
As we can see very clearly our local IP Gods can't explain very clearly Elbow Power. Additionally they immediately start nasty arguing between them, and then start to explain their own explanations, and explain explanation of their explanations........

In summary, nobody knows(God's included) what they talking about.

So we, mortals, are left with nothing! :straightf

Suddenly, hey, you simple humans, there is still a hope!!! :D :D :D

YOUTUBE !!!!!!!!
Here is THE MAN. His ukes are agonizing, groaning, suffer horrible tortures, but he is able very clearly explain what Elbow Power is. Watch carefully from 8:00

Real stuff, no kidding (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBSFxJOfiEU)

graham christian
08-03-2011, 09:37 PM
As we can see very clearly our local IP Gods can't explain very clearly Elbow Power. Additionally they immediately start nasty arguing between them, and then start to explain their own explanations, and explain explanation of their explanations........

In summary, nobody knows(God's included) what they talking about.

So we, mortals, are left with nothing! :straightf

Suddenly, hey, you simple humans, there is still a hope!!! :D :D :D

YOUTUBE !!!!!!!!
Here is THE MAN. His ukes are agonizing, groaning, suffer horrible tortures, but he is able very clearly explain what Elbow Power is. Watch carefully from 8:00

Real stuff, no kidding (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBSFxJOfiEU)

Is that it??? I see no elbow power. I merely see the use of one point in a 'show off' manner.

Regards.G.

Mike Sigman
08-03-2011, 10:03 PM
So we, mortals, are left with nothing! :straightf
I dunno.... what the guy does is pretty hokey and he has well-trained dive-bunnies, but what he's trying to show is basically what has already been described in the thread. Did you ever have anything to start with? :straightf

M.

wxyzabc
08-04-2011, 03:21 AM
Dan

mmm I can easily understand Mike's explanation of creating a ground path from the elbow...but you say you're talking about something else. There is also the ability to create opposing tension in the inner "suit' without the need to create a ground path.

Is there anything else?? :)

Kindest regards

Lee

Cliff Judge
08-04-2011, 09:15 AM
A couple of weeks ago, I saw Bill Gleason make a point about aiki age. To avoid using the shoulder muscles, you move your elbow closer to uke. Works for me, but I wish I could generalize the principle to help with my aiki sage.

Mike Sigman
08-04-2011, 09:18 AM
A couple of weeks ago, I saw Bill Gleason make a point about aiki age. To avoid using the shoulder muscles, you move your elbow closer to uke. Works for me, but I wish I could generalize the principle to help with my aiki sage.That's interesting. How would it work, in terms of avoiding shoulder usage?

Regards,

Mike

chillzATL
08-04-2011, 09:32 AM
That's interesting. How would it work, in terms of avoiding shoulder usage?

Regards,

Mike

puts you in a more "under them" position which lessens the role of the shoulder in the lift.

Tim Ruijs
08-04-2011, 03:11 PM
Aikido is simply body dynamics. well, ok not so simple, but still. :D

When aite exerts force on you, you try to direct the force to mother earth through your structure (skeleton). The wrist, lower arm, upper arm create an arch that can manage a lot of force. Problem is that force easily finds ground/base in the shoulder, but should in fact find its way into your back, his, legs and finally earth.

Even better is off course that aite cannot find any ground 'in' you and cannot exert force to your body. Aite is off balance trying to find the counterforce in your structure where there is none. In fact you now control aite. The way of no resistance. Ultimately this is about ma-ai.
At least that is what I think.

NagaBaba
08-04-2011, 09:28 PM
I dunno.... what the guy does is pretty hokey and he has well-trained dive-bunnies, but what he's trying to show is basically what has already been described in the thread. Did you ever have anything to start with? :straightf

M.
At least for me those 'explanations' are completely incomprehensible. I suspect that even you don't understand what you are talking about.
However, the video is helpful to demystify all this nonsense.

Mike Sigman
08-04-2011, 09:36 PM
At least for me those 'explanations' are completely incomprehensible.Yeah, that's what I was trying to say.

;)

Mike

Tim Ruijs
08-05-2011, 02:01 AM
At least for me those 'explanations' are completely incomprehensible. I suspect that even you don't understand what you are talking about.
However, the video is helpful to demystify all this nonsense.

The loony tunes are not even this funny... if I should be so stupid to act like this with my teacher he would probably slap me. :D

I have watched reasonable material of the late Sunadomari Sensei and that stuff is much more convincing.

DH
08-05-2011, 09:19 PM
Dan
mmm I can easily understand Mike's explanation of creating a ground path from the elbow...but you say you're talking about something else. There is also the ability to create opposing tension in the inner "suit' without the need to create a ground path.
Is there anything else?? :)
Kindest regards
Lee
Hi Lee, nothing personal But I am not that much interested in whether or not things are easily understood on the net. There is a false premise that all things are easy to explain and if you don't want or care to do it then you don't know it. It's pure bullshit that some of you are whole heartedly buying into. Many things are more complete than the basic understandings that Mike always states and quotes.
As an example:
Mike writes:
Generally, the power from the ground goes up the legs to hips and dantien and then the shortest path to the point of application. If you try to route the ground power up over the shoulders, you wind up with "normal" strength, not internal strength. Some Chinese styles (particularly southern styles like Wing Chun, Hakka, etc) keep the elbows and forearms in that line from the waist in order to maximize the power flow. Here's a translation from one of Tung Ying Chieh's books from the 1940's mentioning the idea:
"To loosen the shoulders and drop the elbows means not to concentrate the force at the back of the shoulders. Actually, the strength is transmitted through the upper part of the forearm."
The idea is a fairly common one in a number of Chinese martial-arts.
2 cents.
Mike Sigman
"The idea is a fairly common one in a number of Chinese martial-arts" might more accurately be stated that this is your understanding of the Chinese arts.

These two lines are particularly flawed.
"keep the elbows and forearms in that line from the waist in order to maximize the power flow
Actually, the strength is transmitted through the upper part of the forearm."'
I think people quote a lot and use buzz words and really don't have the experience in application to quite understand what they are reading.

While looking at this we can also examine how it ties in with the all too common specialty of the taiji one-legged-army and the back and forth movement and the erroneous ideas expressed in this dantien, elbow, and hand in a single line.
Here is another Chen Taiji Master class teacher:
"Forward and backward movement do not belong to Chen style. One small wrong movement and the posture is lost. At this time it is up to the spiral of the legs. The spiral of the leg uses on shun and one ni. The power of the hand and of the elbow is also forbidden to be double heavy (both expressing the same power)
And in the same passage:
At this time you must face forward, directly toward the opponent. The shoulder, elbow and hand, must use yin and yang. (expressing opposite power)

There is more to truly explain how this effect is so profound when force is applied to you, but I will just say that the legs, waist, hara, elbow and hand are moving in opposing spirals (always the union of opposites) and never in a line from dantien elbow to hand. That is low level understanding and Ueshiba didn't move that way either.

Morihei Ueshiba's own terminology on movement (now properly translated):
"Face your enemy and move with inside and outside spirals on opposite sides of the body
"The ways of stepping with the feet are outside-spirals and inside-spirals. This is taught in practice."

"This is taught in practice….." is an interesting comment. I agree. I wonder if Ueshiba would be here debating it with Szczepan on the internet because Szczepan hadn't heard of Ueshiba's "mumbo jumbo" in his own art before?
In short, I'm not going to deate it either.
Dan

NagaBaba
08-05-2011, 10:51 PM
"This is taught in practice….." is an interesting comment. I agree. I wonder if Ueshiba would be here debating it with Szczepan on the internet because Szczepan hadn't heard of Ueshiba's "mumbo jumbo" in his own art before?
In short, I'm not going to deate it either.
Dan
Debating? Dan, you must be kidding.... To debate we will have to have something tangible. Meanwhile all we have is a smoke.

You've tried to articulate your ideas already on Aikido-L, ten years later, still nothing. The best you can do is to insult ppl.Look what did happen on ebudo forum...
The results of your 'pedagogical approach" after 5 years is close to null if we have to believe your students. Most of them quit regular training of their previous arts, and in reality are doing nothing at all. These are the facts.
How can any reasonable person can take you seriously? You are living in some kind of imaginary world.

All this is only a smoke.

gregstec
08-05-2011, 11:10 PM
The results of your 'pedagogical approach" after 5 years is close to null if we have to believe your students. Most of them quit regular training of their previous arts, and in reality are doing nothing at all. These are the facts.
All this is only a smoke.

Exactly how do you come to the above conclusion? and just how many of Dan's students do you know? the answer is none - and for the few of us that did answer questions in the other thread about our IP/IT training, most of the input was from a modest perspective - has there been improvement in our martial ability from the training? in short, you betcha - just come to see any of us and we will be glad to demonstrate just how effective.

Greg

wxyzabc
08-05-2011, 11:31 PM
Hya Dan

Thanks for taking the time to reply. I'm guessing a lot of people read something like that once and dismiss it through misunderstanding on their part (easily done and a big mistake to be sure).

If you don't mind I'm going to go away and think about all that...and then probably come back with some questions :D

Kindest regards

Lee

MM
08-05-2011, 11:46 PM
Look what did happen on ebudo forum...


Er, do *you* know what happened? I was an admin on E-Budo. Were you? Were you privy to all of the conversations going on both in public and private? Did you have any kind of say in determining any outcome on E-Budo? Let's see ... No, no, no, and no. So, you're basically speaking from a very uninformed view and trying to pass it off as being something, what, bad? It really isn't worth the effort to drag this subject back into the present. Please let it go.


The results of your 'pedagogical approach" after 5 years is close to null if we have to believe your students. Most of them quit regular training of their previous arts, and in reality are doing nothing at all. These are the facts.


Really? Facts? You sure? Hmm ... just from the people who have posted here or been mentioned. Bill Gleason - still doing aikido. Rob Liberti - still doing aikido. Howard Popkin - still doing Daito ryu. Greg Steckel - still doing Daito ryu. Far as I know, Lee is still doing his art. Chris Li is still doing aikido. Allen Beebe is still doing "aikido". Gary hasn't changed his routine of teaching an aikido class every now and then. Where is this majority of people you know? Please present us with this majority. Or are you speaking from a very uninformed view and trying to pass it off as facts?

My suggestion would be to actually show up at some workshops and meet the people training. Then, after a few of them, you can take stock of who's doing what. I've been there, done that. "Most" are still in their arts. They are ecstatic about their progress and results. IHTBF, not read.

For those reading, here you have someone who has never been to a workshop while I've been out there at the workshops meeting the people training. Most have stayed in their arts and have expressed positively that this training is making their art better. But, you can believe whomever you like.


How can any reasonable person can take you seriously? You are living in some kind of imaginary world.

All this is only a smoke.

There are two kinds of people out there. The good, reasonable Budo people who, when reading about something different and possibly outside their comfort zone, go and get hands on direct experience.

Then there is the keyboard warrior who reads about something different, decides from reading online that it isn't worth the effort, and then proceeds to become an expert at debunking the subject. At times, these people attack the personalities online.

Which are you, Szczepan Janczuk, going to choose to be?

Lorel Latorilla
08-05-2011, 11:52 PM
Seriously guys. Ignore that troll. It will make your life better.

dps
08-06-2011, 02:51 AM
Seriously guys. Ignore that troll. It will make your life better.

Ok, I will put Dan on my ignore list, or is it Mike you are talking about?

dps

stan baker
08-06-2011, 07:15 AM
Szczepan's main interests are windsurfing and snowboarding he may know sonething about those things.

stan

Mike Sigman
08-06-2011, 08:30 AM
"Forward and backward movement do not belong to Chen style. One small wrong movement and the posture is lost. At this time it is up to the spiral of the legs. The spiral of the leg uses on shun and one ni. The power of the hand and of the elbow is also forbidden to be double heavy (both expressing the same power)
And in the same passage:
At this time you must face forward, directly toward the opponent. The shoulder, elbow and hand, must use yin and yang. (expressing opposite power)

There is more to truly explain how this effect is so profound when force is applied to you, but I will just say that the legs, waist, hara, elbow and hand are moving in opposing spirals (always the union of opposites) and never in a line from dantien elbow to hand. That is low level understanding and Ueshiba didn't move that way either.
OMG..... I finally get what you're trying to tell people. A lot of things are suddenly very clear. Er, Dan... you're misunderstanding a couple of things. When did you study the Chen-style and Six-Harmonies movement? The easiest way for you to get out of this mess is to get away from the spiral stuff ( you don't understand what you're saying) and just drop back to "the jin that starts at the feet, is directed by the waist, and expressed in the fingers. You're mixing up "intent" and "qi".

Just trying to be helpful. ;)

Mike Sigman

DH
08-06-2011, 08:50 AM
Debating? Dan, you must be kidding.... To debate we will have to have something tangible. Meanwhile all we have is a smoke.
You've tried to articulate your ideas already on Aikido-L, ten years later, still nothing. The best you can do is to insult ppl.Look what did happen on ebudo forum...
How can any reasonable person can take you seriously? You are living in some kind of imaginary world.
All this is only a smoke.
Smoke?Actually these things are known to thousands of martial artists who use them to one degree or another. Your ignorance of these things does not alter or change the deeper understanding in Budo, or your founders awarenes of them.

Ebudo? Is that still going?
They had a moderator who actually altered peoples posts, erased posts of people for disagreeing with his positions. So I quit.

As for people I train quitting their arts? Bill Gleason is about to pull in, along with teachers and students of Aikido, koryu, karate, BJJ, ICMA, and Daito ryu. I'll say hello for you.

Do some research, Szczepan, or at least argue better, your sounding a bit desperate. Even though you are allowed to attack me personally on aikiweb, at least have some self respect and go after me intelligently.
Dan

DH
08-06-2011, 09:28 AM
OMG..... I finally get what you're trying to tell people. A lot of things are suddenly very clear. Er, Dan... you're misunderstanding a couple of things. When did you study the Chen-style and Six-Harmonies movement? The easiest way for you to get out of this mess is to get away from the spiral stuff ( you don't understand what you're saying) and just drop back to "the jin that starts at the feet, is directed by the waist, and expressed in the fingers. You're mixing up "intent" and "qi".

Just trying to be helpful. ;)
Mike Sigman
When did you study the Chen-style and Six-Harmonies movement?
When did you?
There is a level of understanding you missed that is obvious in your movement to many people. Again, you allude to knowing more and then you offer....nothing. Nor have you been able to convince many by demonstrating either. There is a difference that can be explained between the two texts, and how it relates to the subject of the thread, but I doubt you can explain it.
No matter, after reading your stuff, then watching you move, I no longer am interested in debating you. I didn't write that for your benefit.
Good luck in your pursuits.
Dan

Mike Sigman
08-06-2011, 09:45 AM
When did you study the Chen-style and Six-Harmonies movement?
When did you?
There is a level of understanding you missed that is obvious in your movement to many people. Again, you allude to knowing more and then you offer....nothing. Nor have you been able to convince many by demonstrating either. There is a difference that can be explained between the two texts, and how it relates to the subject of the thread, but I doubt you can explain it.
No matter, after reading your stuff, then watching you move, I no longer am interested in debating you. I didn't write that for your benefit.
Actually, Dan, I did study those things and I've broken them down to where people are now actually getting them. And some very reputable Chinese experts have told me that... you seem to be desperately hunting for every negative story you can find to attack my reputation, but it's not going to change anything.

By grabbing words you didn't understand from QiJin, my posts, videos, etc.., and combining them with other patches of information you've apparently come up with the theory that Aikido uses essentially Chanssujin. You're tucking in all the buzzwords like "reverse breathing", "contradiction", and so on, but I have to ask you: have you seen any of that stuff laid out by someone like Tohei or etc., when they're trying to explain the art?

"Reeling" and "Winding" don't go down the road you're going, but I'll tell you what, why don't you lay out your case. I.e., let's hear a "debate" rather than a desperate attempt to disparage. You and I both know what you're doing and what you've done, but let's see you debate yours without constantly going to the personal attacks.

Mike Sigman

NagaBaba
08-06-2011, 10:15 AM
Seriously guys. Ignore that troll. It will make your life better.
Me troll??? hahahahahahah I'm longer on aikido forums than you live. What is your contribution to Elbow power discussion? - zero. What is contribution of other IP fanatics? - zero content. Only mumbo jumbo incoherent ranting.Did you explained clearly how to develop Elbow power from your point of view? - non. Mike did it? - no. Dan did it? - no. So what you are doing here?

This forum is to discuss ideas. If your ideas are secret, too noble for us, commoners - I have no problem, but don't come here, you have nothing to contribute.

On the forum is like that - you don't give a content? - your credibility is null.

You guys coming to every aikido topic just to market your sectarian stuff and to inflate you ego. You don't practice aikido, know nothing about aikido ,still you are lecturing loudly how and what we should do. That's the only contribution, very negative one. So who in reality is trolling here
:D :D

When you criticize aikido it is OK, and you expect that aikidoka will be happy. When somebody criticize your ideas - ooppss suddenly you are going on the barricades, call such person bad guy, uninformed and with closed mind etc...
what a hypocrisy, what a double standards.

Lorel Latorilla
08-06-2011, 10:44 AM
I swear, I should be always logged in because when I'm not logged in, I have to see this troll's posts. Jun, can you ban this guy already? The noise to signal ratio is tilting towards the noise side because of this troll.

MM
08-06-2011, 10:47 AM
Me troll??? hahahahahahah I'm longer on aikido forums than you live. What is your contribution to Elbow power discussion? - zero. What is contribution of other IP fanatics? - zero content. Only mumbo jumbo incoherent ranting.Did you explained clearly how to develop Elbow power from your point of view? - non. Mike did it? - no. Dan did it? - no. So what you are doing here?

This forum is to discuss ideas. If your ideas are secret, too noble for us, commoners - I have no problem, but don't come here, you have nothing to contribute.

On the forum is like that - you don't give a content? - your credibility is null.

You guys coming to every aikido topic just to market your sectarian stuff and to inflate you ego. You don't practice aikido, know nothing about aikido ,still you are lecturing loudly how and what we should do. That's the only contribution, very negative one. So who in reality is trolling here
:D :D

When you criticize aikido it is OK, and you expect that aikidoka will be happy. When somebody criticize your ideas - ooppss suddenly you are going on the barricades, call such person bad guy, uninformed and with closed mind etc...
what a hypocrisy, what a double standards.

So, please inform us on how many seminars/workshops of Mike, Dan, Ark that you have attended where you can make intelligent comparisons, contrasts, or be able to tell when other people who have gone are getting explanations right or wrong. What was that about hypocrisy? Who actually is guilty of it?

Actually, show us in your posts here in this thread where you actually explained *anything at all* about the topic at hand? You actually have anything to add to the topic? What was that about double standards? Who is actually guilty of it?

Please provide us with this "most" group that have left their previous arts. So far, the evidence points to you being completely and utterly wrong. Can you refute that?

How about lending some credence to your words and actually provide facts (real facts, not how you've redefined that term in this thread) to support your views?

DH
08-06-2011, 11:10 AM
Disparage you? I'll tell you what..leave out comments about what. a mess I'm in, how I do things...that you don't have clue about and you will get more neutral replies from me.
There are any number of pros who do not agree. I don't see a need to attack people when they disagree with you.
your own abilities and mine...do not warrant. such surety.
Dan

Actually, Dan, I did study those things and I've broken them down to where people are now actually getting them. And some very reputable Chinese experts have told me that... you seem to be desperately hunting for every negative story you can find to attack my reputation, but it's not going to change anything.

By grabbing words you didn't understand from QiJin, my posts, videos, etc.., and combining them with other patches of information you've apparently come up with the theory that Aikido uses essentially Chanssujin. You're tucking in all the buzzwords like "reverse breathing", "contradiction", and so on, but I have to ask you: have you seen any of that stuff laid out by someone like Tohei or etc., when they're trying to explain the art?

"Reeling" and "Winding" don't go down the road you're going, but I'll tell you what, why don't you lay out your case. I.e., let's hear a "debate" rather than a desperate attempt to disparage. You and I both know what you're doing and what you've done, but let's see you debate yours without constantly going to the personal attacks.

Mike Sigman

Gary David
08-06-2011, 12:15 PM
Nagababa
I've been involved in Aikido since 1974, before the internet was more than something used by universities and the military, before any of these forums and a time when learning was so regionalized that one was lucky if someone passed through that could offer some help. I live on the west coast so we had access to anyone coming through Hawaii, connections to there, to the San Francisco groups and for 3 years directly to Tohei Sensei who was teacher and friend to my teacher Harry Ishisaka, a friendship based on relationship build in Hawaii. Following Ishisaka Sensei passing my connections have flowed through a number of organizations connected to the Aikikai. In the 80's trained with Chiba Sensei, my group being part of his organization for a while at the time and in bits with all of the other 3rd generation deshi here. Of all of these Saotome Sensei had something that was beyond waza and just hard technical training. I kept looking around for help with finding what that was....... mostly just came in contact with folks who wanted to fly around the mat doing waza. Of course over time you have to acquire some base and the ability to work through hard holds. At some point all of this fast waza, kick-ass training starts to fall apart and the soft compliant training never worked anyway. All my friends from those days now have bad knees and hard to work hips. There has to be more to all of this.....

I will always acknowledge Mike Sigman for responding to my questions and being willing to do meetups and a workshop. Mike set some path markers in place for me. When he told me essentially "I had a long ways to go" I took that as a challenge and being the searcher that I can be I continued to look for processes and tools that fit me. In this search I hooked up with Mark Murray when he came out to Los Angels on business. For all my years of going with the flow, blending, following, extending ki, years of hard waza training.....I couldn't do anything with him. Of course I could have hit him or used a chair, but my stand approach to nikkyo and the like didn't work. Mark's connection got me to Dan Harden. Now maybe I have a little east coast in me I don't know, but I liked the guy straight off. When Dan told me that I suck I took it as a friendly way of pointing out my level. Dan's approaches and tool fit ME so this is were I work. Meeting Dan's students (I mean those that train with him in his dojo and not those of us who have once or twice a year contact) you just like them. They all do what they say they can at the level they say they can and are just nice people. I call Dan friend as well and Mark.

The connection first with Mike and then with Dan has reopened my closeness with a couple of same age friends who are very capable and into which Dan's approach fits quite well. One is John Clodig who at one time was a close in student of Don Angier and the other Walter Muryasz who had a lot of face time with Tohei Sensei back in the '70s. John is aikijutsu and Walter is all about movement in response to touch and energy. I am talking all of this because none of these folks are in it for the money......

Elbow power......my add...secondary pressure...intention through the elbow......

just go straight
Gary

stan baker
08-06-2011, 12:42 PM
Hi Mike
when and who are the reputable experts that have told you.
and what have they told you,I think you can share that.

stan

Mike Sigman
08-06-2011, 01:50 PM
Hi Mike
when and who are the reputable experts that have told you.
and what have they told you,I think you can share that.

stan
No fawning Beta Pack Dogs, please. Let's not take an "Elbow Power" thread and ruin it.

Stan, let's see you post something substantive. After all the years that you've "doing martial arts", surely you can give us the scoop on what Elbow Power is?

Mike Sigman

Aikibu
08-06-2011, 01:50 PM
Me troll??? hahahahahahah I'm longer on aikido forums than you live. What is your contribution to Elbow power discussion? - zero. What is contribution of other IP fanatics? - zero content. Only mumbo jumbo incoherent ranting.Did you explained clearly how to develop Elbow power from your point of view? - non. Mike did it? - no. Dan did it? - no. So what you are doing here?

This forum is to discuss ideas. If your ideas are secret, too noble for us, commoners - I have no problem, but don't come here, you have nothing to contribute.

On the forum is like that - you don't give a content? - your credibility is null.

You guys coming to every aikido topic just to market your sectarian stuff and to inflate you ego. You don't practice aikido, know nothing about aikido ,still you are lecturing loudly how and what we should do. That's the only contribution, very negative one. So who in reality is trolling here
:D :D

When you criticize aikido it is OK, and you expect that aikidoka will be happy. When somebody criticize your ideas - ooppss suddenly you are going on the barricades, call such person bad guy, uninformed and with closed mind etc...
what a hypocrisy, what a double standards.

SJ has a point...and so does Sigman, Harden and the rest...I just wish you guys could imagine me buying you dinner and having a respectful informative debate/discussion that left everyone a little better informed and excited at the prospect of learning something new that makes their practice "better".

I admit that in the past I let my petty ego get in the way on this forum and it did nothing but hurt my prospects of getting a chance to connect with some really good teachers. It has only hurt me...

Hopefully some of you are asking the same questions of yourselves. :)

I think my friend Gary said it best. :)

We have a code in one of the groups I am a long term member of...

Principles above personalities. :)

William Hazen

Mike Sigman
08-06-2011, 03:10 PM
You know, and good discussion forum needs people like Chris Hein, Szczepan, etc., for legitimate questioning of the orthodoxy, suggested ideas, and so on. Sure, it can go too far sometimes, but I never worry much about it.... discord often forces thinking and good results come from that. In trying to rebut someone, often a lot of people are forced to formulate their thoughts before they articulate. So they gain in the exchange. Besides, it always strikes me that instead of arguing with someone unproductively, it's better to let them go and live with what they already know.

In terms of Elbow Power, there are only two aspects that need to be looked at: qi/suit and jin.

Qi/suit is what conveys power, mainly, although it's a storage device too and a couple of other things. In terms of the 'elbow power', it's not something you need to "spiral" or anything, since its main function is to connect the elbow to the dantien.

Jin forces from the ground are linear; any "winding" as such only serves to store or enhance the linear jin. "There is only one jin" ... everything else is just ways of handling the linear aspect of the ground jin. Down jin is also linear at heart, but let's leave it out and keep the discussion simple. What makes the ground-derived jin so important is that the support of the ground takes the place of muscle-produced force. Hence the ground-support needs to go the shortest possible path from the ground to point of application and in a simple example we would see the jin path go from ground to hip to center across to arm and then target. If someone's power goes up and through his shoulder, it cannot be the ground-jin, obviously. So using the shoulder for power means you're not using the ground-jin (aka part of the "Qi of Earth"). And therefore any 'spiraling' of jin simply does not compute except where spiraling of the qi/suit adds some power to go along with the basic jin. If you understand the ground-jin and the fact that "there is only one jin", the conclusion is obvious.

FWIW

Mike Sigman

DH
08-06-2011, 09:43 PM
This idea, that the ground arrives in one place and is linear conveys a foundational mistake. It also violates some important aspects of Ueshiba's Budo, Datio ryu and koryu as well. It does explain why you move like you do in your videos, what you teach, and why you hold so many mistaken views on weapon use.
I think many of your theories are things you read somewhere but haven't really fleshed out yet in a budo framework. Some of your stuff just won't pan out in a broader budo sense. I only mention these things for others to keep thinking and searching.
Dan

Mike Sigman
08-06-2011, 09:50 PM
This idea, that the ground arrives in one place and is linear conveys a foundational mistake. It also violates some important aspects of Ueshiba's Budo, Datio ryu and koryu as well. It does explain why you move like you do in your videos, what you teach, and why you hold so many mistaken views on weapon use.
I think many of your theories are things you read somewhere but haven't really fleshed out yet in a budo framework. Some of your stuff just won't pan out in a broader budo sense. I only mention these things for others to keep thinking and searching.
Er, where (as in "quotation please") has anyone said "arrives in one place"?

That being said, checkmate. You're done. You just don't realize it and think you can BS your way out of it. Trying to hide behind "Japanese stuff is different" is a lost argument that sells only to people who can't think beyond that sort of statement.

Mike Sigman