Cross training with Hapkido? Any advice?

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[St Matt]

I have been training in Aikido for over a year now and I am enjoying it very much. Just recently tho I have been tempted to cross train with another martial art. Some may recall me asking about training Kali Escrima, which I tried, but it didnt seem to 'click' with me so I didnt pursue it. However more recently I thought about Wing Chun but was put off it somewhat by people saying the footwork is completely different to Aikido and the two arts would not blend well?

So here I am now considering Hapkido. Obviously there are similarities between Aikido and Hapkido BUT do the two arts blend together relatively easily, ie footwork, or am I going to find it more confusing than rewarding? Is there anyone out there that trains in both these arts that could maybe pass on some advice?

Many thanks,
Matt

[Janet Rosen]

I can't really help with the specific request, so feel free to disregard my own question/curiosity!
Is there something you feel lacking in aikido, some area in which you don't find yourself fully engaged or adequately challenged? Because it seems to me what you are describing is not getting tugged TO a specific other art so much as finding yourself wanting something other than what you have. Maybe if you can clarify your goals it will make next step or choice of a second art easier to identify.

[lbb]

The only advice I can give is general advice for such a situation: don't even go there if you're not going to be able (or willing) to give your new style the time and effort and respect that you give to aikido. Whatever style you pick is its own art, not some kind of adjunct style to "round out" what you're missing in aikido. If you treat it as a buffet where you can graze and cherry-pick what you like, and don't treat it as a serious endeavor, that's a big mistake. Treat it seriously, or stick to a single style.

[phitruong]

However more recently I thought about Wing Chun but was put off it somewhat by people saying the footwork is completely different to Aikido and the two arts would not blend well?



who said Wing Chun wouldn't work with aikido. surely you jest. it can teach you the idea of irimi and center line like you couldn't believe. of course it depends on who teaching it as well. as far as hapkido goes, i liked them spinning kicks, but don't like their approach to throwing.

[St Matt]

Hi Janet, although I do really enjoy Aikido I sometimes feel that it does lack some things that maybe another art could help to fill out. For example I would like to add more strikes/atemi to my training and I thought maybe Hapkido could help here? I realise Aikido is full of atemi but we dont seem to learn them much.

Hi Mary, thanks for your advice. I was in fact hoping Hapkido might round out my Aikido a little but I never thought of it like you did. I was maybe hoping that Hapkido training would benefit my Aikido training by adding a different slant and also giving me an extra hour and a half a week on the mats? You have a good point which I will definately take on board.

[St Matt]

who said Wing Chun wouldn't work with aikido. surely you jest. it can teach you the idea of irimi and center line like you couldn't believe. of course it depends on who teaching it as well. as far as hapkido goes, i liked them spinning kicks, but don't like their approach to throwing.

Hi, I read it on a few posts on various websites about cross training with Wing Chun. Others have stated that the footwork is too different and would hinder rather than help. I do not know enough about Wing Chun to know any different so I took on board what they said as true? I take it you think Wing Chun is a good complimentary art then?

[phitruong]

Hi, I read it on a few posts on various websites about cross training with Wing Chun. Others have stated that the footwork is too different and would hinder rather than help. I do not know enough about Wing Chun to know any different so I took on board what they said as true? I take it you think Wing Chun is a good complimentary art then?

if the kind of aikido that focus on dodging then yes, wing chun would hinder that sort of training. my kind of aikido isn't about dodging. it's about going straight in and take the other bugger's center and throw him/he/it. wing chun, in this case, worked just fine. it's not for the faint of heart.

[lbb]

Hi Matt,

I think there is benefit to studying a striking style, but if you want to supplement another art, it's hard to do it the right way -- without shortchanging the style. Just so you understand where I'm coming from, I came to aikido after studying striking styles for a number of years, and I didn't really leave those styles by choice -- it was a matter of no longer having a good dojo nearby. Where I live now, there are several schools in various styles that I can't honestly say I have a high opinion of -- they're not really bad schools, they're just not as good as they could be. So, I chose to start all over again in a completely new style. If I had the opportunity to study a striking style at a good school, and I also continued with aikido, I'm not sure that I would do it. If I had the time to train adequately in two styles (3x a week each), I think I might be better off spending my efforts on just one style.

[St Matt]

Mary, thanks again for your advice. Currently I train twice a week in Aikido as thats all thats available to me where I live, 2 x 2 hour training sessions. The other thing that crossed my mind is that if Hapkido was similar to Aikido the extra 1.5 hour lesson in Hapkido (again this is all thats available) would also maybe benefit my Aikido practice if that makes sense?

[lbb]

The other thing that crossed my mind is that if Hapkido was similar to Aikido the extra 1.5 hour lesson in Hapkido (again this is all thats available) would also maybe benefit my Aikido practice if that makes sense?

Could be, could be not. That's true even if it were another aikido dojo.

What's the issue with only being able to train 2x a week? Is that all the classes that your dojo offers?

[robin_jet_alt]

I second what Phi said about wing chung. I knew a sensei who took up wing chung as a second art and he knew some very interesting things about atemi and staying on the centre line.

If you are interested in learning about using atemi effectively in aikido have you considered looking at Nishio style aikido? I understand that it may not be available in your area, but I am learning some interesting things with it at the moment. I feel like I am taking my techniques apart and putting them back together from scratch.

I know very little about hapkido so I can't help you there.

[St Matt]

Mary, yes my Aikido dojo only has the two lessons a week unfortunately.

Robin, Wing Chun is an art I have quite an interest in and was quite tempted to try it until I was advised against it. However after reading yours and Phi's comments I may take another look. Also we have a dojo in my home town of which the main instructor (is it sifu in Chinese?) was actually tutored by Ip Mans son Ip Ching so that at least implies that it is a quality training facility. I do not know of the lineage of the Hapkido dojo? Also I will look into the Nishio style Aikido you mention thanks.

[Tim Ruijs]

I know of one teacher that made the change from Hapkido to (our style of) Aikido several years ago. The Aikido teacher arranged for a demo of Aikido at his place and vice versa. The Hapkido teacher found Aikido more interesting and changed art :-)
When training with him or his students I notice they (still) put much more force in the techniques. And I still feel they practise techniques, not content, but that is slowly changing for the better.
For what it is worth....:)

[oisin bourke]

Hi Matt,

I think there is benefit to studying a striking style, but if you want to supplement another art, it's hard to do it the right way -- without shortchanging the style. Just so you understand where I'm coming from, I came to aikido after studying striking styles for a number of years, and I didn't really leave those styles by choice -- it was a matter of no longer having a good dojo nearby. Where I live now, there are several schools in various styles that I can't honestly say I have a high opinion of -- they're not really bad schools, they're just not as good as they could be. So, I chose to start all over again in a completely new style. If I had the opportunity to study a striking style at a good school, and I also continued with aikido, I'm not sure that I would do it. If I had the time to train adequately in two styles (3x a week each), I think I might be better off spending my efforts on just one style.

Something else that may be worth looking into is "cross training" in an Asian classical FINE art: Calligraphy, dance, ikebana, tea ceremony etc, there are loads of options. How many martial arts does one need to learn?

[SeiserL]

IMHO from over 40 years of cross training, don't try to blend different arts.

When you do Aikido, do Aikido.

When you do FMA, do FMA.

When you do Wing Chun, do Wing Chun.

When you do Hapkido, do Hapkido.

[lbb]

Something else that may be worth looking into is "cross training" in an Asian classical FINE art: Calligraphy, dance, ikebana, tea ceremony etc, there are loads of options. How many martial arts does one need to learn?

That's excellent advice. In fact, if you find the right teacher, I'd bet that a classical Japanese fine art could teach you more about ryu-ha than you'll get in most dojos.

[phitruong]

Something else that may be worth looking into is "cross training" in an Asian classical FINE art: Calligraphy, dance, ikebana, tea ceremony etc, there are loads of options. How many martial arts does one need to learn?

i can see the calligraphy and dance, but tea ceremony? why does the japanese makes a big thing out of drinking tea. i meant you just heat the water, throwing some tea leaves, let it sit for a bit, then drink (slowly or you burn your tongue). i meant they don't even serve snacks for christ sake! at least the chinese has dim-sum that you can enjoy and internalize (some you might not want to internalize). incidentally, there is no good dim-sum place in this town, which is really suck! methink, chinese tea approach is better, at least you ended up with a full stomach of stuffs (unmentionable stuffs, but stuffs nevertheless). :D

[genin]

Yea, but Tea Ceremonies look REALLY cool with a hurricane brewing in the background. (Karate Kid II movie reference)

[asiawide]

Just don't do it. It won't help you to do aikido better. For kicking or punching, it may be ok.. but IMHO please don't do it.

[joelap]

I have been training in Hapkido for around 2 years, and I have just switched to Aikido a few weeks ago. Not necessarily because Hapkido is worse or Aikido is better; rather, I was driving farther to learn Hapkido at a dojo that placed more emphasis on their Tae Kwon Do class... When I started, Hapkido class sizes were 4 to 6 individuals. For the last year, it's been myself, another mid-ranked student, and an instructor. I left to find a dojo, be it Aikido or Hapkido, that focused solely on one of those arts, and I found that in an Aikido dojo.

Cross training in Hapkido might be something you would say "oh that's a different way of doing it", but in my experience, depending on how you are being taught Aikido or Hapkido, they may contradict. For instance, in Hapkido I was taught to tense up my wrist, extend my fingers to "let my ki flow" while doing the moves. First day in Aikido I was told that rule #1 is to stay relaxed at all times. That will be a hard habit to break.

Also, I noticed some of the techniques I was being taught in Hapkido were changed somewhere along the line in Aikido. For instance, this video of Nishio Sensei explaining a bad way of doing Shihonage was how I was being taught in Hapkido (Ba Gat Hye Jun was the Korean name) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9PTMSwr1h0&feature=related

Some Hapkido instructors focus more on the aikido-style techniques, while others have fully fused in the kicking/striking from Tae Kwon Do. I have found quite a bit of variability associated with dojos (at least here in the east coast USA - Connecticut area) who claim to teach Hapkido.

So, just my 2 cents from my experience, I would stick with the Aikido and find a different art to cross train with. Certainly you can learn and take something from any art, but I would pick something other than Hapkido with an Aikido background.

[nuxie]

I do Hapkido and Aikido and I find they complement each other really well. I do agree though when you are at Aikido class do only aikido and when you are at hapkido do only hapkido... works better that way.

[ryback]

Hello Mat! I have expressed my opinion about cross-training in other threads as well but i will do it again here,and i hope that you will take it under consideration because from what i see it's not a mainstream point of view. Aikido is a complete martial art with certain basic principles. There are also other fine martial arts, but their principles are different, so in my opinion, one should never, ever cross-train in martial arts. There is only one aikido and that is the complete aikido with immobilizations, projections, joint manipulations, atemi waza, weapons, all of those are part of aikido training. So if you think that your teacher doesn't practice them, find another aikido dojo. The only cross training that would benefit your aikido skills is iai-do, because aikido's roots are in japanese swordmanship. But only if you can find an iai-do system with the same posture and te-sabaki as aikido.Of course all of the above reflect my personal opinion and the way i practice, but are based on objective facts.

[graham christian]

Can learning shooting guns improve your archery?

Can learning how to make coffee improve your tea making?

Can learning French improve your English?

I think not. All it can do is remind you what you should have been concentrating on in the first place.

Regards.G.

[lbb]

I don't know about the coffee and tea, Graham, but I think your other two examples are poorly chosen. I agree (somewhat) with the conclusion, but I disagree with the reasoning you're using to get there.

There's a bigger question, too, but I don't have time to write about that now...maybe tomorrow.

[robin_jet_alt]

Can learning shooting guns improve your archery?
- Yes, it will teach you focus, concentration, and aim.

Can learning how to make coffee improve your tea making?
- Yes, you will learn precision, and about the importance of water temperature.

Can learning French improve your English?
- Yes, you will learn about grammar structure.

Okay, it is a bit of a circuitous route to learn these things, but having another perspective can also be helpful. Getting back to the topic of cross training, I think it suits some people better than others. Personally, I'm sticking to Aikido, but I'm not going to enforce that personal decision on anyone else.

[graham christian]

Can learning shooting guns improve your archery?
- Yes, it will teach you focus, concentration, and aim.

Can learning how to make coffee improve your tea making?
- Yes, you will learn precision, and about the importance of water temperature.

Can learning French improve your English?
- Yes, you will learn about grammar structure.

Okay, it is a bit of a circuitous route to learn these things, but having another perspective can also be helpful. Getting back to the topic of cross training, I think it suits some people better than others. Personally, I'm sticking to Aikido, but I'm not going to enforce that personal decision on anyone else.

Mmmm. So you don't learn focus, concentration, aim in archery?

Same for the other two. Thus my point. I would say you can have many perspectives on one thing and many on another but there is a reason they are separate things.

If you want to learn something else then go somewhere else.

If you want to learn more about what you are studying be a better student. Don't blame others, don't blame anyone.

The only qualifier I see is finding the style that suits you and if you have then stick with it until you are very good at it and see all doubts and quandrys as part of the journey.

The grass is never greener on the other side.

Regards.G.

[robin_jet_alt]

I didn't say that studying one thing is the only way to learn about another, nor did I say it is the most effective way. I was merely showing that it is one way to do it.

I don't see why someone can't train in more than one martial art and appreciate each for it's own sake, while also gaining something from each that will aid that student in the others.

To imply that you are a bad student if you study more than one thing seems a bit silly to me. Was Ueshiba a bad Daito-ryu student because he also studied various schools of swordsmanship etc.? Would we even have modern aikido if he hadn't? The same goes for Tohei. Was he a bad student for studying yoga and healing techniques and incorporating them in his Aikido? There certainly wouldn't be the various modern Shin Shin Toitsu-ryu derivatives if he hadn't.

As a said before, I choose to only study aikido, and there is nothing wrong with your choice to do the same. However, I still feel that it is disrespectful to claim that this is the only correct thing to do.

[joelap]

What about a ground-based art? With everyone and their mother learning MMA/BJJ right now, what are the opinions of learning how to handle oneself if you end up on the ground?

[OwlMatt]

You said you've only been training in aikido for a little over a year? At that level, I think it would be confusing to train two different arts with such a similar set of techniques. I don't mean to disparage hapkido in particular or crosstraining in general, but I think I would get confused adding hapkido so early on in my aikido journey.

[Chris Evans]

hapkido combines karate, emphasizing Korean style of kicking, with elements of aiki-jujutsu.

hapkido, judo, BJJ (jiu-jitsu), karate (Wado, Goju, Enshin, Kyokushin, Seido, non-WTF taekwondo) would all add to your aikido practice, but for the first three years, I recommend 3~4 times a week of one art to build a "base."

My old hapkido dojang sparred MMA style: Very insightful and inspiring and a whole lot less physical delusions than at most places.

[Chris Li]

hapkido combines karate, emphasizing Korean style of kicking, with elements of aiki-jujutsu.

hapkido, judo, BJJ (jiu-jitsu), karate (Wado, Goju, Enshin, Kyokushin, Seido, non-WTF taekwondo) would all add to your aikido practice, but for the first three years, I recommend 3~4 times a week of one art to build a "base."

My old hapkido dojang sparred MMA style: Very insightful and inspiring and a whole lot less physical delusions than at most places.

The founder of Hapkido claimed to have trained with Sokaku Takeda, and supposedly accompanied him on a trip to Hawaii (http://www.aikidosangenkai.org/blog/archive/2012-06-17/kisshomaru-ueshiba-mangos-and-johnny-walker-black).

FWIW...

Best,

Chris

[Chris Evans]

The founder of Hapkido claimed to have trained with Sokaku Takeda, and supposedly accompanied him on a trip to Hawaii (http://www.aikidosangenkai.org/blog/archive/2012-06-17/kisshomaru-ueshiba-mangos-and-johnny-walker-black).

FWIW...

Best,

Chris

Yes, thank you. If i may guess: Much of the source & inspiration of "Korean" hapkido comes from Okinawan Kara-te (with the kanji for China) and from Japanese koryu jujutsu.

[Brian Beach]

I have been training in Aikido for over a year now and I am enjoying it very much. Just recently tho I have been tempted to cross train with another martial art. Some may recall me asking about training Kali Escrima, which I tried, but it didnt seem to 'click' with me so I didnt pursue it. However more recently I thought about Wing Chun but was put off it somewhat by people saying the footwork is completely different to Aikido and the two arts would not blend well?

So here I am now considering Hapkido. Obviously there are similarities between Aikido and Hapkido BUT do the two arts blend together relatively easily, ie footwork, or am I going to find it more confusing than rewarding? Is there anyone out there that trains in both these arts that could maybe pass on some advice?

Many thanks,
Matt

I've done both. Hapkido. They are different arts. They look externally similar but how they execute them is different.

I look at Hapkido as a generalist art. There is a bit of everything. Striking, Kicking (a lot), Judo type throws, joint locking, chokes and a limited amount of ground work. Each is good but not as specialized as other arts. If you want to learn ne waza, take judo or BJJ. If you want to lean striking take karate, etc. Although their kicking is the most extensive I've seen, even more than Tae Kwon Do.

It is a very good self defense art. Compare Krav Maga and HKD. (HKD was doing it first :) ) We also did "MMA lite" style sparing which was very helpful. Judo type throws, kicking, punching and rolling if you ended up on the ground. I could never pull off aikido waza in sparring until I started taking Aikido and changed my thinking about how they were achieved. Where were the appropriate opportunities and what kuzushi was necessary and how to achieve it. I did the same with Judo. Cross trained for a couple of years.

Hapkido is a comprehensive system but basically it is a Jujutsu base with striking added. So it is as different from Aikido as Jujutsu is from Aikido. I think that you will find the two methods to be conflicting. I came from Hapkido (2nd Dan) to Aikido, where it gave me a lot to build from I had to relearn similar techniques. The maai is different and the desired outcome is different, the ukemi is different. I think you'd be better served learning a strictly striking art if you plan to stick with Aikido as your primary art. If you are still "shopping" arts Hapkido is a good art and you should give it a try.

[Chris Evans]

I've done both. Hapkido. They are different arts. They look externally similar but how they execute them is different.

I look at Hapkido as a generalist art. There is a bit of everything. Striking, Kicking (a lot), Judo type throws, joint locking, chokes and a limited amount of ground work. Each is good but not as specialized as other arts. If you want to learn ne waza, take judo or BJJ. If you want to lean striking take karate, etc. Although their kicking is the most extensive I've seen, even more than Tae Kwon Do.

It is a very good self defense art. Compare Krav Maga and HKD. (HKD was doing it first :) ) We also did "MMA lite" style sparing which was very helpful. Judo type throws, kicking, punching and rolling if you ended up on the ground. I could never pull off aikido waza in sparring until I started taking Aikido and changed my thinking about how they were achieved. Where were the appropriate opportunities and what kuzushi was necessary and how to achieve it. I did the same with Judo. Cross trained for a couple of years.

Hapkido is a comprehensive system but basically it is a Jujutsu base with striking added. So it is as different from Aikido as Jujutsu is from Aikido. I think that you will find the two methods to be conflicting. I came from Hapkido (2nd Dan) to Aikido, where it gave me a lot to build from I had to relearn similar techniques. The maai is different and the desired outcome is different, the ukemi is different. I think you'd be better served learning a strictly striking art if you plan to stick with Aikido as your primary art. If you are still "shopping" arts Hapkido is a good art and you should give it a try.

Bravo, Brian.

I love Hapkido: So much that I've joined an aikido dojo (that also offers some jujutsu training) and will continue with karate along with occasional drop-ins for judo or BJJ mat work, as time permits. Ahhh so much to do, so little time...must prioritize & balance.