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JW
07-19-2011, 10:53 PM
So instead of just blindly talking about "moving with your center", shouldn't some of the questioning/commentary be around the question of "why is moving from the middle an advantage"?


Most martial arts have seniors who talk about doing this. If they can do something awesome, they say "because I use this" and indicate the hara area. Why would that make any sense?

Some people use the hips to do something, others mean something else. Why would not using your arms or shoulders be an advantage?

My answer forthcoming but I didn't want to contribute to thread derailment so I wanted to start this first.

robin_jet_alt
07-19-2011, 11:03 PM
I'll start the ball rolling with a very simplistic answer. It's because there is more of it there to use, and it's where your centre of gravity is.

Taken as a whole, the bundle of muscles around your abdominal area are incredibly heavy and powerful. Why would you waste your time using the little muscles of your arms and legs without using the big ones around your centre? You can then use your arms and legs to channel the force that is being generated by the bigger and stronger muscles around your centre. This is why training methods that focus on core strength are becoming so popular in sport these days.

I'm sure there will be plenty of answers that talk about connection to the universe etc. and I am not denying the validity of all that as well. I will, however, defer to those with a better understanding of it than myself.

JW
07-19-2011, 11:19 PM
Robin, good point about strong muscles near the middle.

My physics answer below. I know there are real physics folks on here, so I look forward to that.

The center of mass of an object is important. By exploring this descriptive feature, we can start to understand the importance of moving "from the center."

We can consider a zero-G scenerio for clarity, or we can talk about life on earth, which involves the considerations from the zero-G scenerio, plus issues having to do with balance in gravity. To keep the post length down, let's skip zero-G and get to the good stuff!

When an force is applied to an object, we can say 2 things happen. To predict/understand what happens, decompose the incoming force into 2 perpendicular vectors-- one is directly toward the object's center of mass (CoM) and one is thus exactly tangential to it.
[note I am talking about rigid objects. softness needs additional consideration]

One thing that happens is translation of the center of mass (depends on how much force is directly in line with the CoM). The second thing is rotation due to torque about the CoM (depends on magnitude of that tangential vector).

If I want to do something with my body, each muscle I use actually applies force to my body. Yes, the joint I tried to flex or extend will act as I intended-- but there will be a side effect. Lets say I flex my biceps to lift a coffee cup, and everything else is relaxed. Meaning I didn't move from my center. The cup will go up. What else will happen? My shoulder will be pulled slightly in a direction pretty much toward the elbow and cup. Depending on if I was reaching for a cup by my waist or a cup on a shelf above my head, my CoM may move to the side (translation). Almost certainly, there will be a torque about my center of mass. Both of these 2 side effects will have importance to me, in terms of not spilling my coffee as I fall over.

We have some software built in to take care of these issues-- they are called "Anticipatory Postural Adjustments" (APA), and they are learned. These corrections (pre-corrections?) allow a person to not move from their center, and still have a coffee to drink. I may pull using one of my obliques for instance, on the side opposite the coffee cup. The torque will be counteracted. Some hip action will stop the translation. So, both problems are counteracted.
In other words, I suck at getting coffee so I do more work than I need to, and things work out ok. Except that it was much harder than it needed to be (not just in terms of caloric output, but in terms of coordination skill and timing needs). And... it was much slower than it could have been. I still get the coffee, but in martial arts, a hundred milliseconds of lag on each thing I want to do can matter.

Torque depends on distance from center of mass (moment arm). This is getting long. But I hope it is clear what I am getting at-- there is a need for martial artists to move in a way that includes the whole body as a functional unit, rather than a bunch of parts that each need correction when you want to use one part.

Beyond this-- I have only talked about coordination. You don't need tanren-driven exercises for this, you just need skill practice. The reason is that we can make do with the muscles that are commonly used. I think "changing the body" has to do with saying "ok I am committed to moving a new way, let me develop some physical tools that are optimized for this type of being, instead of relying on this old body as it is."

Tim Ruijs
07-20-2011, 02:20 AM
When you move from the center your posture remains strong. It is much harder to throw you off balance. And when you must apply force it has the best focus/strength.
In addition it requires less energy, giving you more endurance.
To achieve this you will have to learn to use your body differently....
Techniques in Aikido help you to change.

Mary Eastland
07-20-2011, 07:17 AM
Because it takes you out of your thinking brain into the instinctual part of you that your survival depends upon.

chillzATL
07-20-2011, 08:32 AM
Efficiency, strength and balance.

Mike Sigman
07-20-2011, 09:18 AM
One of several reasons is that you can't use the "Qi of Earth" if you route it up through your shoulder. You can't use the "Qi of Man" very well if you don't use the central control, but that's a complicated discussion and assumes a lot of background. The "Qi of Heaven".... well, that's an interesting thought with some ramifications.

2 cents.

Mike

Cliff Judge
07-20-2011, 09:25 AM
There are a couple of reasons for this that aren't directly related to "results," i.e. they aren't strictly for the purpose of making technique effective.

First, students tend to use their upper body muscles to make techniques happen at first. By scolding them to move from their center - props to a teacher who can simply stand there unaffected by a young student who uses his or her muscles to make this point - you encourage them to think about using their body in a different way, to learn how to accomplish things without activating those outer muscles.

Second, we all know that the hara is where ki is collected and concentrated. Obviously we have all given up on Aikido practice as any way to build internal strength. :rolleyes: But pretending for a moment that there is supposed to be a component of collecting and concentrating ki in the center, perhaps paired practice of generally spiral techniques can do that if you learn how to work from your center.

As far as effective technique goes, I've got two more thoughts for your consideration:

One, that regardless of whatever advantages you get by engaging core muscles and keeping your posture balanced, "moving from the center" also means that you are able to transfer power smoothly from one extent of your body to the other. In particular, from your feet and legs to your partner.

Second, regarding the OP's question about, why not just use the arm muscles? In a nutshell, you relay way too much information to your partner about what you are doing, while stopping the flow of information back into your nervous system. To use the arm muscles (actually, this is mostly the "outer" or "upper" arm muscles - from the forefinger to the bicep to the shoulder), you create tension that uke can feel. A lesser-trained uke will tense up and become more difficult to move. A better-trained uke will relax as you tense up, and disappear like smoke in your grasp. (So train with me if you want to feel the former.)

danj
07-20-2011, 08:53 PM
What everyone else said reiterated....
Our centre is the main power centre of the body(its got all the mass and the big muscle groups) and the primary connecter to the infinite power of the ground (via the ground reaction force) to the rest of the kinetic chain (linkages out to the point of power transfer). Like the handle of the whip it generates and passes on the power out through the linkages of the body in hopefully a co-ordinated way.

<disclaimer: big generalisation ahead> For traditional martial, that comes from a society where deductive science isn't available as a tool for explaining phenonema and a cultural belief in the 'hara', Move from the centre is a nice translation that works well with the many pedagogies of aikido, it spares the complexity of detail (cause there is enough of that in the busy work of the feet and hands from the kihon) yet can get the basic idea across.

dan

HL1978
07-22-2011, 07:43 AM
One of several reasons is that you can't use the "Qi of Earth" if you route it up through your shoulder. You can't use the "Qi of Man" very well if you don't use the central control, but that's a complicated discussion and assumes a lot of background. The "Qi of Heaven".... well, that's an interesting thought with some ramifications.

2 cents.

Mike

Mike while we have had disucssions related to ten chi jin before on aikiweb, and I think I know what the ki of heaven (breath power and resultant conditioning?) is and the ki of earth (ground path controlled by the middle?), I don't remember hearing what the ki of man is. Is it the combination of both?

Any good places to look for information on that?

Mike Sigman
07-22-2011, 11:35 AM
Mike while we have had disucssions related to ten chi jin before on aikiweb, and I think I know what the ki of heaven (breath power and resultant conditioning?) is and the ki of earth (ground path controlled by the middle?), I don't remember hearing what the ki of man is. Is it the combination of both?

Any good places to look for information on that?

Well, without getting into the lengthy description (it's germane to this thread in a way, but off-topic to the specific discussion), let me point out that the Ten Chi Jin concept is core to internal strength in terms of the original "theory" (cosmology?). As part of that cosmology, the use of the hara/dantien/center got its inception in the literature. Of course the literature shouldn't be looked at as a description of some vague, quasi-religious maunderings... a lot of the descriptions, while sounding religious, were actually discussions of the body in relation to internal strength, in my opinion. In those days the function of the body and the function of the universe were considered to mirror each other.

Best,

Mike Sigman

JW
07-22-2011, 02:50 PM
I think I know what the ki of heaven (breath power and resultant conditioning?) is and the ki of earth (ground path controlled by the middle?), I don't remember hearing what the ki of man is. Is it the combination of both?


I'm surprised to hear it parsed that way. I hope I would be corrected if I am wrong but here's how I thought it meant:

Ki of heaven is "what heaven insists on" in other words, all masses move down with a force proportional to their mass.
Ki of earth is "what earth insists on" in other words, all force applied to the earth will be instantly and exactly matched.
Ki of man is that which is controlled by the intent. We use breath exercises to condition it, and some breath pressure to utilize it, but ultimately it links the body together and responds to intent. It's characteristic of being both fully distributed in the body and centrally linked allows it to be useful in "bridging heaven and earth through man."
What do you all think?

Mike Sigman
07-22-2011, 03:27 PM
I'm surprised to hear it parsed that way. I hope I would be corrected if I am wrong but here's how I thought it meant:

Ki of heaven is "what heaven insists on" in other words, all masses move down with a force proportional to their mass.
Ki of earth is "what earth insists on" in other words, all force applied to the earth will be instantly and exactly matched.
Ki of man is that which is controlled by the intent. We use breath exercises to condition it, and some breath pressure to utilize it, but ultimately it links the body together and responds to intent. It's characteristic of being both fully distributed in the body and centrally linked allows it to be useful in "bridging heaven and earth through man."
What do you all think?
Close, but no cigar, is what I think, Jonathan. It's very easy to hear some of the terms related to internal strength and think we understand them, but as the classics point out, if you're off by an inch you will end up missing by a mile. There are a few terms that I've been watching (on various forums) develop in a direction that is way off-target in recent years and I'm waiting to see how it all goes. Generally what happens is that people wind up in a cul de sac from which there is no easy return because they've invested so much in changing their movements into a new, but wrong interpretation. So with the Ten Chi Jin idea, which is a very basic concept, I think it's important that people are clear on what it means and why.

2 cents.

Mike

chillzATL
07-22-2011, 03:41 PM
I think it's important that people are clear on what it means and why.

2 cents.

Mike

so what does it mean then mike?

JW
07-22-2011, 04:03 PM
Can I have one hint? Maybe, which parts are no cigar?:D
Thanks..

dps
07-22-2011, 04:43 PM
Why move from the center?

Conservation of energy.

Minimum effort, maximum results.

dps

graham christian
07-22-2011, 06:11 PM
Because it's natural.

JW
07-22-2011, 07:37 PM
I'm pretty sure on most people the quads and gluts are really strong, perhaps the strongest locomotory muscles. So although I think muscles near the center of mass are well-poised to bring the ground's upward push to where you want it, I am going to say I don't think they are especially "strong."
So I guess I don't like the "strong muscles" answer. I think the middle is important mostly by virtue of position, not strength. (Though you can find good strength there even before training)

Some questions..
David, why would moving from the center make your movements efficient? Lifting a coffee cup using the biceps is pretty efficient. Unless you were talking about the postural disruptions I mentioned.

Graham, why would anyone have to learn it if it is natural?

Mike, unless you (or anyone else) have some reason for saying my explanation of ki of ten, chi, jin is wrong, I think it is right. Ten means the downward push of gravity, chi means the grf, and jin means the aspect of your body that is controlled by intent. (Though it wasn't clear if this basic breakdown is what was "close but no cigar.")

I think that by connecting those three things (2 aspects of universal intent and your own intent), you will be in a special state. What I feel as my "center" when I try to "move from my center" is a percept that did not exist for me before, back when I didn't exercise with consideration about "heaven and earth."

graham christian
07-22-2011, 07:58 PM
[/QUOTE] Graham, why would anyone have to learn it if it is natural?[QUOTE]

Jonathan.
Simply put? Because we have forgotten how to be natural.
We've become 'normal'

Too much thinking. Thinking makes you move from the head. The stress of thinking and worry makes you tight and thus awkward in movement.

Thus you may understand the where the sayings to do with the mind in the stomach or abdomen or hara etc come from.

Put your mind in centre and already you will feel better and your head freer. Have your mind in stillness in centre and it feels silly to move from anywhere else. It feels too natural.

Regards.G.

DH
07-22-2011, 10:07 PM
I'm pretty sure on most people the quads and gluts are really strong, perhaps the strongest locomotory muscles. So although I think muscles near the center of mass are well-poised to bring the ground's upward push to where you want it, I am going to say I don't think they are especially "strong."
So I guess I don't like the "strong muscles" answer. I think the middle is important mostly by virtue of position, not strength. (Though you can find good strength there even before training)

Some questions..
David, why would moving from the center make your movements efficient? Lifting a coffee cup using the biceps is pretty efficient. Unless you were talking about the postural disruptions I mentioned.

Graham, why would anyone have to learn it if it is natural?

Mike, unless you (or anyone else) have some reason for saying my explanation of ki of ten, chi, jin is wrong, I think it is right. Ten means the downward push of gravity, chi means the grf, and jin means the aspect of your body that is controlled by intent. (Though it wasn't clear if this basic breakdown is what was "close but no cigar.")

I think that by connecting those three things (2 aspects of universal intent and your own intent), you will be in a special state. What I feel as my "center" when I try to "move from my center" is a percept that did not exist for me before, back when I didn't exercise with consideration about "heaven and earth."
Well, you also stated Heaven ki is gravity.
How is heaven Ki ...as gravity...going to help you much?
By leaning on and over the guy in free fall?
Is earth ki then as simple as standing up and extending your legs to push up?
Of course not. It's more complex, sophisticated and nuanced than that.
You might ask yourself ..
Where does heaven ki reside...in you?
Where does earth ki reside...in you?
In order to be manipulated by man?
How and where would that connection in-between work if it was as simple as forces outside of you where up is up and down is down?

Lee Salzman
07-22-2011, 10:22 PM
Close, but no cigar, is what I think, Jonathan. It's very easy to hear some of the terms related to internal strength and think we understand them, but as the classics point out, if you're off by an inch you will end up missing by a mile. There are a few terms that I've been watching (on various forums) develop in a direction that is way off-target in recent years and I'm waiting to see how it all goes. Generally what happens is that people wind up in a cul de sac from which there is no easy return because they've invested so much in changing their movements into a new, but wrong interpretation. So with the Ten Chi Jin idea, which is a very basic concept, I think it's important that people are clear on what it means and why.

2 cents.

Mike

Mike, then, please, just come out and give an actual simple-stupid definition of what tenchijin is if you are of the belief that people are using the term wrong, need to be informed, and if it is central to your points. That's not meant to be a passive-aggressive swipe, I just mean that this discussion won't go anywhere good unless the exact reasons for your disagreement are pointed out.

JW
07-23-2011, 01:35 AM
Well, you also stated Heaven ki is gravity.
How is heaven Ki ...as gravity...going to help you much?
By leaning on and over the guy in free fall?
Is earth ki then as simple as standing up and extending your legs to push up?
Of course not. It's more complex, sophisticated and nuanced than that.

Hi Dan, yes I certainly wouldn't want to downplay the nuance/sophistication. One of my favorite references for the connection between the final, nuanced in-body application and the initial, simple, "dumb" natural source of the power in question (gravity in this case) is from you:


I do weapons. In one practice a fellow told me I was using too much muscle and cutting through him. You can imagine the look on my face. I simply said "No I'm not." he argued and decided to prove a point. He said "Cut" (in a prescribed fixed pattern at a point in kata, so your sword stops in the air) and when our swords met he pulled his sword away expecting me to pitch forward or my sword to go forward as he moved his resisting force out of the way. When he did that my sword just stayed in space.
...
Now I took over and said lets do it again. Now when he pulled away and I just stood there, I said "Okay, now slowly walk back in with your bokken connecting. When he did, his bokken and his body started to collapse under the weight emanating from me, when he backed off...I stood there...when he came back in slowly...collapse under the weight. Confused he just stared at it. Giving a little sarcasm back for the insult I said "It's called moving from da center.

My point.. just that the usefulness of gravity or ground for a martial artist goes beyond simple "normal" things like leaning on someone or lifting a car hood. How? By having these 2 universal intents plugged into a unified body, as in the quote here. Since it is the will of gravity combined with your will, it is like you can mentally control a little piece of gravity. It ends up being your center that you feel as being used because you are using your whole body.. that spot is your whole body, functionally. If you mentally control your weight and your GRF-- then you are "willing" your center of mass into places where it doesn't appear to be (and lo and behold, you get an effect on the other guy).

Using your center, right?

Anyway the more I type the more the words lose focus. If I keep typing, it will get to the point where even if I am right on in my understanding, it might sound like BS. Frustrating. OK good night all!

aikidoaddict
07-23-2011, 09:30 PM
Most martial arts have seniors who talk about doing this. If they can do something awesome, they say "because I use this" and indicate the hara area. Why would that make any sense?

Some people use the hips to do something, others mean something else. Why would not using your arms or shoulders be an advantage?

My answer forthcoming but I didn't want to contribute to thread derailment so I wanted to start this first.

The Japanese were usually small statured people and had to learn to utlilise all of their body in a concentrated effort to be able to perform efficiently and effectively, especially in the martial arts field.
You will be very limited if you use the western concept of power, which is the top half of your body and brute force and strength. This can easily be stopped by a smaller person if they know how. If, on the other hand, you utilise the eastern method of power and strength, which is coming from the legs and hips, you will display incredible power and strength above what you should normally possess. There is of course a technique involved which takes time to master. Your legs hips and centre must move with your arms and hands aligned with your belly button. until you can get this all working in unison you will be easily stopped and probably prone to giving up. Do not give up, keep trying for this is the secret of amazing power with ease.
Paul
Who am i?
I started my Aikido journey in the 70's, and I am still loving it.

Mike Sigman
07-24-2011, 12:29 AM
Mike, then, please, just come out and give an actual simple-stupid definition of what tenchijin is if you are of the belief that people are using the term wrong, need to be informed, and if it is central to your points. That's not meant to be a passive-aggressive swipe, I just mean that this discussion won't go anywhere good unless the exact reasons for your disagreement are pointed out.Lee, I'm away on a trip with my usual too-small laptop so I'll have to defer until I get home to a keyboard that doesn't seem to cause me to correct every other letter.

Best.

Mike

JW
07-24-2011, 05:09 PM
Hi Paul, if your answer can be summed up as "use your whole body and you will be stronger," then I can get behind that a bit. (Although, check out some of the other posts here regarding how there are different ways to do this.) But for my own practice, I am interested in aiki rather than being stronger.

Regarding hips.. I used to think highly of using hips to do things. I thought it was more "right" than using the shoulders. I've even been explicitly taught that.
Now, I see it differently. Who called the hips the "shoulders of the lower body?" Great point. And sounds like Lee's comments about Armsly and Legsly.

graham christian
07-24-2011, 05:39 PM
Hi Paul, if your answer can be summed up as "use your whole body and you will be stronger," then I can get behind that a bit. (Although, check out some of the other posts here regarding how there are different ways to do this.) But for my own practice, I am interested in aiki rather than being stronger.

Regarding hips.. I used to think highly of using hips to do things. I thought it was more "right" than using the shoulders. I've even been explicitly taught that.
Now, I see it differently. Who called the hips the "shoulders of the lower body?" Great point. And sounds like Lee's comments about Armsly and Legsly.

Jonathan.
How exactly do you see the 'hips' now in relation to what you do? What were they to you before?

This is a genuine question.

Regards.G.

Lee Salzman
07-24-2011, 05:54 PM
Hi Paul, if your answer can be summed up as "use your whole body and you will be stronger," then I can get behind that a bit. (Although, check out some of the other posts here regarding how there are different ways to do this.) But for my own practice, I am interested in aiki rather than being stronger.

Regarding hips.. I used to think highly of using hips to do things. I thought it was more "right" than using the shoulders. I've even been explicitly taught that.
Now, I see it differently. Who called the hips the "shoulders of the lower body?" Great point. And sounds like Lee's comments about Armsly and Legsly.

The question is, when a fellow aikidoka talks about using the hips, what do they mean? As far as I have seen, it seems to be something like this (http://www.chendokanaikido.com/opt/mune.gif). But whereas those silly western muscle-heads, they seem to have some other idea about what the hip does (http://crossfitbattlefield.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/Casey-Burgener.jpg). Then again, they also seem to have this silly idea that the shoulders can do likewise (http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0bdB1fg5uKaC9/340x.jpg). So, aikidoka bashing stuff with the side of their hips and shoulders, and the weight-lifters are using them as bridges to transfer power out of the center, wherever it is between, who'da thunk?

graham christian
07-24-2011, 06:02 PM
What are the hips to you Lee?

Regards.G.

JW
07-24-2011, 06:15 PM
Hi guys, a 2-parter here:
1
I was playing with ways I could have mis-interpreted things. Lots of ideas have been talked about over the years, including heaven referring to up and down and earth referring to horizontal. Then looking at Mike's newish blog post "Baseline Parameters," I thought of the idea of heaven referring to air pressure and earth referring to both grf and gravity. I don't think either of those interpretations is correct.
I also found an old judoforum post (number 46 here) (http://judoforum.com/index.php?/topic/32835-yeah-but-who-of-you-can-do-this/page__st__44) where Mike explicitly defines Ki of Earth as ground and Ki of Heaven as gravity, along with this old post.
Roughly speaking, the strength from the ground goes through the bones (ki of Earth) and the "connective", "down-pulling" strength (ki of Heaven) goes through the fascia/ki arrangement (which is more complex than that simple statement implies).
Anyway just trying to narrow down any errors I may be spouting..

2.
Replies to Lee and Graham.
Lee, great photos :D I don't get the little picture of the muscle arm next to the aikido guys, but what that tsuki the guy is doing looks like one thing that people have said is "using the hips." And as you point out, it has to do not with lifting but with projecting forward. That is to say, the muscles that twist the hips are used (to twist the hips), while the arm/upper body is coupled to the hips. So that tsuki can be "from the hips." I've been shown it, and practiced it.

Graham, that is an example of what I used to think was good. That is, I didn't generate a tsuki from the shoulders, so I thought that was right. I also used to do shomen suburi like this too-- meaning, as the hip pivots with power, the sword is flung forward. But how about this. We train a lot in seiza. So I couldn't do suburi in seiza. I couldn't punch in seiza. I couldn't do anything. So that was one of the things several years ago that allowed me to think, "something isn't right."
But in the end who needs to do all that from seiza. That was a cue for me, but it wasn't the main reason to change. Long story short, I see both the hips and the shoulders as joints. They are points of articulation. They move. That is their job. Generating power is not their job. Power and connection has to make it through them, that is my point in studying them.

[edit: Lee! I liked the other "shoulders" photo!]

graham christian
07-24-2011, 06:23 PM
Thanks for the explanation Jonathan. That's nice and clear. So without too much explanation, where do you generate power from now?

Regards.G.

Janet Rosen
07-24-2011, 06:28 PM
I'm not Jonathan but I'll chime in...I've been in too many dojos and heard too many instructors/sempai use "hips" as synonymous with "center" and so in fact I came to understand them that way too...but they are not the same.
Since my knee does not permit me to sit in seiza, my practice of kokyudosa has to be done cross-legged. There is no possibility of hip movement. But it offers lots of opportunity to explore moving my center - up, down, forward to irimi, to one side or another.

graham christian
07-24-2011, 06:34 PM
Thanks Janet. That's clear.

Regards.G.

JW
07-24-2011, 06:45 PM
Thanks for the explanation Jonathan. That's nice and clear. So without too much explanation, where do you generate power from now?

Regards.G.

I don't. I'm totally weak now!

Just kidding. Kind of.
I am exploring now. What I do now is to "generate" power from a central bubble in the middle of my body-- it is distinctly above my hips, but distinctly below my chest. I put generate in quotes because I am tempted to say I borrow rather than generate..borrow from my body weight and from my stacked posture. Everything is constantly transmitted from the periphery into the center to be worked with, which then causes changes back in the periphery.
Anyway regarding hips-- let's say my "self" is in the hara, then my "self" reaches through the hips to move the legs. Same thing up top, I reach up to support or suck in (as needed) my chest and shoulders from below.

graham christian
07-24-2011, 07:02 PM
Thanks Jonathan. That's clear also. Very good. Once again the area of Hara even if different folks may use it or explain it differently.

I agree with and understand both yours and Janet's explanation. I'm just exploring and researching peoples views and comparing.

My interest was also in views on Hips so you have answered them too.

On Hips, or Koshi, I have been interested for a while on peoples views as I haven't seen any relating to mine. It's all interesting.

Regards.G.

JW
07-24-2011, 07:27 PM
On Hips, or Koshi, I have been interested for a while on peoples views as I haven't seen any relating to mine.

Well please don't leave us hanging! What is the role of the hips for you, and is it synonymous with moving from the center, somewhat related, or distinct? Thanks!

graham christian
07-24-2011, 08:00 PM
Well please don't leave us hanging! What is the role of the hips for you, and is it synonymous with moving from the center, somewhat related, or distinct? Thanks!

Pardon? I'd finished although I was considering opening a new thread to ask what others view on koshi was.

O.k. Yes I do have it as something distinct and 'separate' ( knowing that all things in harmony relate and operate together)

In fact I have it as equal in importance to hara etc. In my Aikido I teach Koshi albeit different to what I usually come across from others I come across in the arts.

In terms of stages of learning or development I find it comes after or later than the understanding and use of centre, or indeed hara as most folks like to call it.

Therefore I notice many have what I can see as a misunderstanding on the word Koshi and hips and tend to think it means the pelvic region and thus equate it with a rotational movement of the hips. Some as like a thrusting or throwing of the hips. Some more as a hip waist thing which then makes sense of koshi nage.

From a hara point of view it would then be seen as power given to the hips or even drawn from them or both. No doubt there are other views too.

For me the misunderstanding physically comes from not knowing the true meaning is to do with the back of the hips right at the base of the spine. I'm sure I could look up a more technical structural definition ie: which anatomical part of the spine where it meets the hips I'm referring to.

I have seen many faces brighten up in some kind of eurika moment when they remember 'oh, so that's what he meant by opening the hips' as they remember what a past teacher told them.

Anyway' just to give you an idea where I'm coming from for starters otherwise I'll be writing a book on it.

Regards.G.

graham christian
07-24-2011, 08:34 PM
Ah. Jonathan. Just looked up some anatomy so i would call it the lumbar sacral part of the spine/hips.

Regards.G.

Janet Rosen
07-24-2011, 09:39 PM
Ah. Jonathan. Just looked up some anatomy so i would call it the lumbar sacral part of the spine/hips.

Regards.G.

What you describe is not what I consider part of the hip structure at all. It is the lumbo-sacrum and the area where it connects to the pelvis fans out laterally to the iliac crest is the sacro-iliac.

The "true" hip is the joint where the top of the femur rests on the socket at the lower aspect of the lateral pelvis - it is actually lower than the more common usage of "hip" which is the part of the lateral pelvis just above that joint - like where women are wide.

Its telling that when people talk about hip pain they are talking about one of those OR low hip/groin pain like the psoas. But sacroiliac pain is "back pain."

Now clearly YMMV, but I think your usage of the term "hips" is different from most folks.

robin_jet_alt
07-24-2011, 10:07 PM
We have to be careful not to equate hips with koshi. Koshi is an area that encompasses the lower back and the top of back half of the pelvis. Hips are obviously the area centered around the pelvis. If you have lower back pain, you clearly wouldn't say that your hips hurt, but in Japanese, you would absolutely say that your koshi hurts.

Just my 2 cents worth. I actually spent a good 20 minutes discussing the difference between hips and koshi in a comparative linguistics tutorial once.

Janet Rosen
07-24-2011, 11:02 PM
We have to be careful not to equate hips with koshi. Koshi is an area that encompasses the lower back and the top of back half of the pelvis. Hips are obviously the area centered around the pelvis. If you have lower back pain, you clearly wouldn't say that your hips hurt, but in Japanese, you would absolutely say that your koshi hurts.

Just my 2 cents worth. I actually spent a good 20 minutes discussing the difference between hips and koshi in a comparative linguistics tutorial once.

Yes! Thank you for a nice follow up to my more purely anatomical description.

graham christian
07-25-2011, 04:05 AM
Yes! Thank you for a nice follow up to my more purely anatomical description.

O.k. Thanks. So now that we've got the anatomical linguistics straight we can see what I mean by Koshi.

Generally this is called hips by many (wrongly in my view).

Let's take koshinage. Most would call it a hip throw wouldn't they?

But the hips, especially the western view of hips, is not Koshi so mistakes and misunderstandings abound.

As you say in the west we talk back pain or lower back pain. In japan they don't say this they say koshi hurts.

[/QUOTE]What you describe is not what I consider part of the hip structure at all. It is the lumbo-sacrum and the area where it connects to the pelvis fans out laterally to the iliac crest is the sacro-iliac.[QUOTE]

So Janet. That which you describe there is what I mean by Koshi.

I am saying all Koshi moves are based on that. I am also saying there is a history and development of that Koshi, not dissimilar to how you develop hara.

I am also saying when this is acquired then doing moves from seiza are simple and no harder than standing, in fact much easier.

Jonathan, that includes cutting the sword etc.

Regards.G.

Thomas Campbell
07-28-2011, 02:32 PM
an actual simple-stupid definition of what tenchijin is

http://www.cherrylodgecancercare.org.uk/images/upload/SaturdayNightFever_300x298(1).jpg

SteveTrinkle
07-28-2011, 02:48 PM
http://www.cherrylodgecancercare.org.uk/images/upload/SaturdayNightFever_300x298(1).jpg

Stayin' Alive!

Krystal Locke
07-29-2011, 01:08 PM
Physics, leverage, fulcrum, center of mass. Bipedal rather than quadripedal.

What's the heaviest, most useful, most immovable thing we've got? The planet. It is the best fulcrum and/or thing to push off from we've got for moving things.

The linkage between a person's hips and the planet is rather short and powerful when compared to the linkage between the person's shoulders and the planet, and shoulder linkage has to go through the hips anyway, so let's make sure they're solid first.

Each joint between bones is another angle to be optimized when transferring power, and it all has to begin and end with one's connection to the planet.

Now, lots of places make a point of teaching elbow power, is there an analogous knee power we could look at?

gregstec
07-29-2011, 07:00 PM
http://www.cherrylodgecancercare.org.uk/images/upload/SaturdayNightFever_300x298(1).jpg

I think I have seen pictures of Ueshiba doing that same pose - maybe there is something hidden in plain sight there, maybe a mystical message or hint :D

Greg

graham christian
07-29-2011, 07:08 PM
I think I have seen pictures of Ueshiba doing that same pose - maybe there is something hidden in plain sight there, maybe a mystical message or hint :D

Greg

Like a finger pointing to the moon......

gregstec
07-29-2011, 07:24 PM
Like a finger pointing to the moon......

Or maybe a finger up someones moon shot - who knows, sounds mystical to me - maybe I need to spend some time to evaluate the hidden meanings - back in a while after I find something :D

Greg

Mike Sigman
07-29-2011, 07:32 PM
Actually, that kind of pose is pretty common in a number of Chinese martial arts, either statically or transitionally. "Winding" or "spirals", though, is simply a tangent of what is actually going on.... hence my curiosity about why a tangent is being focused on so much.

2 cents.

Mike Sigman