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Bruce Baker
06-11-2002, 09:21 AM
From what I have been reading from many of the posts, there seems to be too much harmony in Aikido?

We are exploring the more violent aspects of other arts against Aikido.

We are seeking the deadly hidden assets of warrior arts from which Aikido is taken.

We are seeking the street use of Aikido in many situations that can and do occur to many individuals in their daily lives.

Is there too much harmony in Aikido?

Do you take the time to examine the impact of your life upon the face of society in being either voice of reason for harmony, ignoring the status quo, or giving your support to violence by doing nothing?

What I am trying to say, is what you post on the Aikiweb you emotional outlet, or the an alter ego of what you think you should be now that you practice Aikido. Did you physical practice of Aikido change your outlook of you daily life?

( I guess this should be under spiritual, but with the fact of posts, physical results in life, and Aikido's goal of physical harmony, I was looking for an actual result of what we actually do verses the words of Aikiweb posts?)

Brian H
06-11-2002, 11:12 AM
I'm a policeman. My department has lost two officers since I joined. I knew both of them. I practice Aikido so I can better use force to protect myself, the public and those I have to use force against. I studied karate for awhile but got away from it because solving problems by kicking and punching them will eventually result in you getting to meet some nice citizen types in a grand jury room. (picture the prosecutor asking "tell us about the roundhouse kick to the back to the subject's head"). Aikido techniques generally don't require beating the suspect into submission and are over very quickly, big pluses in a street fight.

So what is harmony in a street fight?

All I can say is that by training in an art like Aikido that you learn how to control yourself and your opponent. If you have a measure of control then it could be said there would be fewer circumstance where you would have to harm (or kill) someone who was trying to harm (or kill) you.

Needless to say, I don't have any faith in the "violence never solved anything" crowd. (WWII - I don't think we could have talked to Nazis out of Europe - and the passengers on Flight 93 certainly kept their plane from hitting it target and saved a lot of lives)

Is all violence evil? Well, evil is a matter of intent. Is your intent to do no more harm than necessary to reach a noble purpose? That is something you have to ask yourself constantly and adjust your actions to those that you can truthfully admit to as just.

AikiAlf
06-11-2002, 11:38 AM
good question Bruce, I wonder about this myself.

one thing though, is that on this forum may be aikido related but it's not aikido practice.

when I post here I'm engaging in a differnet activity; I'm sure it has a name.. Web Foruming?

Since the net began it's earliest expression of community building was bulletin boards, listservs, usenet , web forums now. I'm logged in here and writing as an exercise of that, internet community activities.

And though I love to practice Aikido, Aikiweb posting is not the same. It's a different setting with different rules (not as defined or harmony inducing).

how many posters take a 1/2 hour to post and think through the postings? How many things are said as a reaction to 'netiquette' how much is posted for the sake of argument ,to stir the hornet's nest a bit?

I've been trying lately to keep Aikido and intenet Aikido forums separate. I enjoy reading the discussions and putting my 'presence' out. That is about as much parallel I can find to my practice.

do you think a "dojo-like" environment could be better? can we find a way to ritualize confrontation to make it easier to study?

thanks for the question..

BXLE
06-11-2002, 02:42 PM
It's been many years since I've actively practiced Aikido (but since I'm here I'm obviously thinking of starting again...). However when I did Aikido I believe I learned a few things.

The first is - If you can see a situation that looks like it might be trouble don't go there. (This is not to say that you shouldn't intervene if something bad is happening to someone else - rather that many bad experiences can be avoided by not being in the area where they are likely to occur).

Secondly I liked Aikido because it was not all harmony. It was all physics - to get most leverage on people take a long lever (preferably one attached to their body) make it stiff and use it against them (second and third order levers come into play here but I don't know enough about them...):circle:.

My belief is therefore that Aikido is not Harmony it's common sense.

chadsieger
06-11-2002, 03:48 PM
I belive that is everyone in the world were to believe in and practice the Aikido that Ueshiba laid out, there would never be another fight again. That is why I train and that is why I teach. A world of peace is what everyone wants, whether they will admit it or not. Even the thug/bully/exploiter/user really only wants to be loved. The first challenge is realizing that it is possible. This, Aikido has taught me.

Thanks

SeiserL
06-12-2002, 12:30 AM
IMHO, Aikido does not start with harmony, it starts with discord. It is the enter and blending that finally brings two difference sounds into resonance with each other producing harmony. Harmony is the outcome, the goal.

In that regards, it can be practiced here too. Rather than resist each others opinions or points of view, can we enter and blend with them so we can learn from each other. Is our practice of the philosophy of Aikido here in the forum congruent with our practice on the mat?

I accept I generally need more practice in the enter and blend. Sometimes I can be rather reactionary and defensive to people who believe they have all the answers. Perhaps I an jealous because I don't even know all the questions.

But is there too much harmony? Not from what I read. I think we need to practice more and preach less.

Until again,

Lynn

shihonage
06-12-2002, 01:15 AM
Originally posted by BXLE

My belief is therefore that Aikido is not Harmony it's common sense.

I agree.

Brian H
06-12-2002, 07:17 AM
Originally posted by chadsieger
I belive that is everyone in the world were to believe in and practice the Aikido that Ueshiba laid out, there would never be another fight again. That is why I train and that is why I teach. A world of peace is what everyone wants, whether they will admit it or not. Even the thug/bully/exploiter/user really only wants to be loved. The first challenge is realizing that it is possible. This, Aikido has taught me.

Thanks

If everybody obeyed all the laws concerning assualt and murder, not many people would be inspired to study martial arts. But since there are lots of people out their who find great joy and inner peace hurting other people, I will be in class tonight. I really don't think I can change anybody (except as acting as a good example to the young) so instead I just hope to frustrate their foul purposes (and maybe toss their ass in jail too)

REK
06-12-2002, 07:41 AM
Originally posted by chadsieger
Even the thug/bully/exploiter/user really only wants to be loved. The first challenge is realizing that it is possible. This, Aikido has taught me.

Thanks

Chad, I have to disagree with you. It has been shown through extensive study of structural and chemical neurology that there is an aspect of the human population for whom this is not possible. These individuals are literally wired differently than you and I. The technical term is "psychopathy". I agree that it is possible for some to love everybody, but I think the research is clear on the point that this is not possible for everyone. Aikido can teach us individually new manifestations of "love" and respect for our fellow humans, but that presupposes a capacity to do so, a capacity not universally in evidence.

Originally posted by SeiserL
Aikido does not start with harmony, it starts with discord

Well stated, Lynn. I think you have cut to the heart of the matter here.

Rob

Suru
06-19-2002, 07:32 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by chadsieger
[B]A world of peace is what everyone wants, whether they will admit it or not.


Chad,

This is the greatest truism I think anyone has ever written. The "admitting" part I think involves the fact that making the world a peaceful place seems impossible to some people so they feel they had better make due with our current situation. In my heart I think a world of peace is possible, but if I start thinking about it with my brain too much it can become overwhelming. Like you said, everyone wants it so if only we could all feel the hope and figure out the guidelines to follow, it could be done. Definitely. And I don't even think it would take that long, and more people might find aikido to be one vehicle for peace.

Drew

"Never doubt that even a small group of thoughtful, dedicated people can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has."

(loosely quoted) (Margaret Mead I think)

ChristianBoddum
06-19-2002, 10:43 PM
Hi and good morning !
To loosely quote my sensei -
What you do at the spur of the moment
may be hurtful but not evil,
since evil is premeditated and your
reflexes aren't.
I think for beginners (less than 10 years of
practice)AI-KI means : move out of attackdirection , like ma-ai ,
nothing to do with harmony only distance.
And I support the don't-be-a-fool-on-the- street thing,not being able to get to training and learn more because of gunshot wounds,is worse than licking your hurt feelings.
At two occasions I've had weapons drawn in my home - nowhere to run,only option keep mind
very calm and not let things get out of hand,
you're just happy to see what you could have done but didn't, in the dojo afterwards.
Thank God your still alive ,and learning.
Yours - Christian Boddum.

efredeluces
06-23-2002, 08:27 PM
Harmony in aikido for me is not just the harmony of you and your environment but of your mind to your body and your good and evil side.

No matter how hard we deny that we don't have an evil inside su we all do, its has always been there. If any one knows that people who studies YIN and YANG do, this never goes away but one must learn to balance both side in perfect harmony.

We study inflicting pain to an agressor so as to make him think that we can hurt him to not just him thinking that he can hurt us badly making him feel that he is not all powerful does keeping the balance.

Happy training...........

Loyalty to one's practice makes one alert and efficient

aiki_what
06-23-2002, 08:59 PM
Not too much Harmony.....too much talk of harmony......or too much talk about the martial aspects of Aikido. Sometimes talk and discussion are good....other times its just mental masturbation.

The pursuit of harmony is one reason why I practice Aikido.....not the harmony that hopes for World peace and universal love, but that one honest moment during a technique or movement where everything is in perfect balance (if only for a milli-second). I would argue that other martial arts practice the pursuit of discord, which while more practical and effective are much less noble.

Anyway, my 2 cents of opinion spit out into the universe. What a waste ot time.

tedehara
06-23-2002, 09:29 PM
It was unsettling to me to read the title of Koichi Tohei's newest book The Way to Union with Ki. I finally realized that Morihei Ueshiba, Kisshomaru Ueshiba and Koichi Tohei weren't kidding around or being mystical. The practice of aikido should put you in union with the Ki of the universe. Another way of saying this is that the practice of aikido puts you in harmony with the universe.

When many people study, they will look for different things and take away the many treasures that aikido can give. But the name of the art is AI:ai: KI:ki: DO:do: . To me, that is not only the name of the art, but also its promise.

You can't train for anyone other than yourself. Similarly you can't impose peace on the world, but you can work for peace in your life. Also, for me, posting to this web site helps me organize my thoughts and views. I am not too worried about people's reaction to my own opinions.
from The Mysterious Power of Ki, pg 139
On the last day he (O Sensei) lectured me:'I have given you all my treasures. If they were objects, I could perhaps ask you to return them to me. But what I have taught you today, I can never take back. From now on, practising in the dojo is the same as ascetic practice under the waterfall. You must practise for as long as you live. Also, you may speak to others when you have realized more than I taught you, but never speak of anything you do not really understand.'

SeiserL
06-24-2002, 08:51 AM
Originally posted by aiki_what
I would argue that other martial arts practice the pursuit of discord

I would tend to agree. While other arts tend to talk about peace and harmony, they are actually saying their goal is returning to a state of peace and harmony which has been disrupted by violence. Their actual practice, way, is violence. The exceptions would be thos internal arts (Tai-Chi, Bwuag-wa, Hsing-i. I too like that Aikido's practice is congruent with its goal.

Too much harmony? Are their ever really too many voices in the choir?

As I read post, I see that many (including me)are still training their pursuit of harmony. Phyiscal training is good. Mental and verbal training is also good. Both are better.

Until again,

Lynn

Bruce Baker
06-24-2002, 09:59 AM
When we speak of the Aikido and the harmony of the universe, we are using the futility of violence when confronted by and unbeatable opponent ... which forces those of violence to either be destroyed, or find a way to coexist with the world around them.

The harmony of our Aikido becomes the deterent to those who would seek the short cut, the illegal unfair advantage, or the just plain downright mean spirited twisted mind that will run wild until faced with a force that can enlighten or destroy them.

That part of the philisophical divergence over, how is it that reponses can refer to the physical practice of Aikido solving all questions, when in fact, to mis-quote another thread writer, purely physical practice is the masturbation of ego without the proper outlook or mental awareness to understand what is happening in the physical arena.

(Had to say it, the slur to not thinking while practicing Aikido, or at least observing balance, motion, or effect will not correct mistakes or separate you from emotional baggage to avoid mental wanderings into sexual arenas.)

The thought of too much harmony in Aikido and not enough in the wanderings of Aikiweb threadwriters, who are indeed meandering into the fields of violence while pretending to understand the wider aspects of Aikido, gives me the a feeling of ambiguity for most of the responses to questions.

On the one hand, there is more violence in the world than most of us can correct, but on the other hand, even though we train in Aikido to make a difference, most advice is to run away?

I hope that is not the total solution.

I hope you physical form leaving the scene of violence is to acquire assistence to make a difference?

Funny thing about harmony, and disharmony, it takes a lifetime to tell when the opposite reaction is the right one for the situation?

Sometimes your violence awakens the moral outrage, and sometimes it quells the situation.

Maybe there is too much harmony, and maybe we need some more mental masturbation, as mentioned earlier.

Aikido is not all physical strength, and it does involve a lot of mental training as well as spiritual searching, so ... maybe we should reserve a little more time for going over the discussion part of what makes Aikido work during class? We should get a little less harmonious, and get a few more written words, with discussion.

At least it would cut short many of the misconceptions.

Jim23
06-25-2002, 09:38 PM
An expression I've heard is "verbal masturbation and mental castration" - a bit like "long of tongue, yet short of brain".

Jim23

Bruce Baker
06-27-2002, 01:51 PM
Remember

people who say

All generalizations are false

have no brains ... as in no knowledge.

Hence

they rely on innuendo,

and trash talk

to make others

respond.

Get out and get some knowledge,

then you will understand why you brain can not process or understand ...

Generalizations.

(Sorry, had to do it ... if telling all the answers were the way to learn, we would all be genius caliber, and not have to look for answers! That is a fact, not a generalization.)

Now that that little tid bit is out of my head... it will go away.

Andy
06-27-2002, 02:31 PM
Don't worry Jim. I'm sure Bruce will pick up on the subtleties of predicate logic some day.

Jim23
06-27-2002, 02:42 PM
I somehow doubt it.

Bruce, you write as if you're teaching me some sort of lesson - that'll be the day.

What you need to do is go back and read your posts again a few weeks after you've written them. Maybe then you'll see why your patronizing, pompous ego elicits the response it does. Then again, maybe you won't.

Get over yourself.

Jim23

mike lee
06-29-2002, 11:35 AM
Not too long ago I faced a blind-drunk Canadian former hockey player outside a bar. Won the fight without throwing a punch. There were about 15 witnesses. It was in front of DV8 in Taipei.

It all started earlier in the evening. An American had somehow insulted him and he was bent on literally killing the American. The guy was extremely strong and it took six of us to push him out of the bar. All illusions of me being a lone aikido super-hero went out the door with him.

I'm convinced that if I had to fight him one on one, I would have needed a huge stroke of luck to beat him. He was much younger, stronger, extremely agressive, and he had probably been in far more fights than I will ever be in.

About 45 minutes later as my friend and I were leaving the bar, this drunk Canadian shows up again, bent on finding this American that he wanted to beat to death. I told him that the guy had left a long time ago, but he didn't believe me.

So then I told him that if he wanted to fight someone he could fight me. (I really don't know why I said that.)

So, I take off my jacket and stand my ground -- basically ready for anything. He had four friends and I had one guy watching my back.

The Canadian looks at me in near disbelief for about 10 seconds and then decides to go home.

I won, not through the power of intimidation, but with the power of rightousness. Given enough time to stop and think, the Canadian realized that fighting was the wrong thing to do, and he changed his mind.

I have seen this phenomenon happen countless times in my life. People who can only use intimidation to fight are far from the essence of aikido.

ChristianBoddum
06-29-2002, 11:44 AM
Hi !
Great story ( hockey guy ).
In a christian sence,intimidation is a spirit - like domination ,and can be overcome by rightiousnes.
Have a great day !
yours - Chr.B.

Bruce Baker
06-29-2002, 12:50 PM
I know it is bad form to point out the discord of hecking, and trask talk, but there it is.

I thought that most teachers opened the minds of their students to seek the less violent role of blending with situations, or recognizing the need to swiftly deal with discord that can not be dealt with by simple means, and here we have the child mentality that trash talk will win over all logic and learning?

It won't.

The only pomposity of my words is the honesty of writing without reservation, and your lack of life experience to understand what I am talking about.

Sorry about that, that is the road you have chosen to pursue.

Harmony of Aikido, violence of words, thought, or deed ... these are balances you must find for your own life.

Trash talk, and finger pointing, along with snickering comments are deep subconscious crys for help ... go find it ... I can't help you, I have my own problems to deal with.

In a very Aiki form of concern, counter coulture is not always the solution to change, or a better world, but taking honest advice is.

If you cannot find satisfaction posting on the Aikiweb, then seek help elsewhere.

In a way, the Aikiweb becomes not only a sharing of life experiences, but a place where we should try to help each other ... at least that would seem to be the original premise?

If you feel the need to physically prove my thesis wrong, I will let you know when I am on the west coast so I may be educated.

Too much harmony?

Maybe it is time to let the animal out and play with the hecklers in the peanut gallery?

Enough of this line.

Disharmony, Harmony ... we make it happen, we stand up, we speak out, we are the ones who stand for freedom, or are forced to play by someone elses rules.

With Aikido, we try to make life better.

Use it in class, understand it for use in your everyday life too. Then you can say, I do Aikido ...

Young-In Park
06-29-2002, 02:09 PM
Originally posted by Bruce Baker

Harmony of Aikido, violence of words, thought, or deed ... these are balances you must find for your own life.

Trash talk, and finger pointing, along with snickering comments are deep subconscious crys for help ... go find it ... I can't help you, I have my own problems to deal with.

In a very Aiki form of concern, counter coulture is not always the solution to change, or a better world, but taking honest advice is.

If you feel the need to physically prove my thesis wrong, I will let you know when I am on the west coast so I may be educated.

Use it in class, understand it for use in your everyday life too. Then you can say, I do Aikido ...

Is it just me, or does Mr. Baker challenge Mr. Lee in the second to last paragraph? If so, isn't it somewhat ironic that Mr. Baker is chastizing Mr. Lee for being too confrontational?

Perhaps Mr. Lee has never heard of tenkan and Mr. Baker has never heard of irimi...

not ethically challenged, rather morally flexible,
YoungIn

Jim23
06-29-2002, 05:36 PM
Originally posted by Bruce Baker
I
The only pomposity of my words is the honesty of writing without reservation, and your lack of life experience to understand what I am talking about.


Yikes.

You're pretty arrogant to suggest that others "lack life experience" and should, therefore, take your "honest advice". Your pontifical statements also reveal your naivete.

I would imagine that many here have been around the block enough times to have a fairly firm grasp on reality.

Like I said before, get over yourself!

Jim23

Andy
06-29-2002, 11:39 PM
All I can say is: 20 users (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/member.php?s=&action=getinfo&userid=1075)