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Matt Ashley
06-10-2002, 11:23 PM
Does anybody know what a "self retaining pin" is? I can only guess at its meaning but I would assume that it would allow one to pin another without applying constant pressure. Are these type of pins part of Aikido (or Aikijutsu)? Any help is appreciated.


Thanks
Matt

Bruce Baker
06-11-2002, 09:04 AM
There are only two self retaining pins...

Unconsciousness.

Death.

If you learn the do a pin that does the first pin, you might still be within the tenents of Aikido.

If you do the second, in most cases, you will not be within the tenents of Aikido.

Practice, listen, learn.

I wouldn't ask about this again, unless you want to be the pretzel for someone's demonstration?

SeiserL
06-12-2002, 12:36 AM
I have seen a few demonstrations where the wrist was bent and positioned against the body at such an angle that the person could not release it themself. If they move their hand it would only place more pressure on the wrist lock. But, I don't know what it is called or how to do it.

Until again,

Lynn

kironin
06-12-2002, 01:21 AM
Originally posted by SeiserL
I have seen a few demonstrations where the wrist was bent and positioned against the body at such an angle that the person could not release it themself. If they move their hand it would only place more pressure on the wrist lock. But, I don't know what it is called or how to do it.

Until again,

Lynn



Dennis Hooker Sensei of ASU did such a pin in his Aiki Expo demonstration in Las Vegas. I wasn't close enough and quick enough to catch exactly how he did it, but Dennis walked away and all of sudden I realized that the uke was not going anywhere. He was on his stomach with both hands behind his back and squirming until the other uke rushed up and realised him (it didn't look comfortable).

I could make some guesses about what he did but instead I am hoping it will be in the video.

Craig

Bruce Baker
06-12-2002, 08:37 AM
As I said, there are ways to tie one up into a pretzel ...

But then we wander into Jujitsu's forum, and away from Aikido.

akiy
06-12-2002, 09:54 AM
Originally posted by kironin

Dennis Hooker Sensei of ASU did such a pin in his Aiki Expo demonstration in Las Vegas.
I'll hopefully see him at the Summer Camp in the Rockies (http://www.boulderaikikai.org/sc). I'll try to remember to ask him about it then.

As far as people thinking this is entering into "jujutsu" territory, there are people out there who believe aikido is just a form of jujutsu. Besides, I'll say that I've seen a lot of stuff that people would say isn't a part of aikido done by aikido shihan (including self-retaining pins, pressure points, "small circles," kicks, sweeps, sutemi waza, and so on)...

-- Jun

frankie
06-12-2002, 12:17 PM
kironin: are you sure that the uke didn't just dislocate his/her shoulder or something? i'm just speculating, but having the same re-occuring problem with my own shoulder i know that one really cannot do much in that kind of situation. ;) surely that qualifies as self-retainment. :)

Paul Schweer
06-12-2002, 12:41 PM
Originally posted by frankie
... are you sure that the uke didn't just dislocate his/her shoulder or something? i'm just speculating, ....

Please let me assure you, that was
most certainly not what happened.

The pin was as Lynn Seiser described it.
Hooker Sensei's uke was not hurt
or injured in any way.

Best to you and yours,

Paul Schweer

kironin
06-12-2002, 01:38 PM
Originally posted by frankie
kironin: are you sure that the uke didn't just dislocate his/her shoulder or something? i'm just speculating, but having the same re-occuring problem with my own shoulder i know that one really cannot do much in that kind of situation. ;) surely that qualifies as self-retainment. :)

Yes, I am quite sure.

A) it was clear that he meant to pin him that way.

B) the other uke simply did what the pinned uke could not do, provide a third arm and hand to free the other two. No manipulation of the shoulder was involved.

C) Dennis would NEVER demonstrate something that involved possibly damaging uke.

Craig

kironin
06-12-2002, 01:55 PM
Originally posted by Bruce Baker
As I said, there are ways to tie one up into a pretzel ...

But then we wander into Jujitsu's forum, and away from Aikido.


So softly bringing someone to the ground and quickly tieing up someone in a pretzel so they can do no damage to themselves or others, is somehow not aikido?

but launching them over the hip in way that surely would make an unskilled uke land rough and hard in a way that would surely result in significant injury on pavement is ?
(you can also insert your favorite throw that causes uke to fly through the air and go splat)

Aikido contains jujutsu and philosophy within it. Aikido is not defined by someones particular jujutsu technical syllabus but by the purpose and mindset of nage.

Takemusu Aiki anyone ?
:)
Craig

AikiAlf
06-12-2002, 04:07 PM
Hooker Sensei showed his that pin at a seminar at the ADV dojo. Have you seen the classic tanto-tori pin where uke's knife arm is bent and then the wrist ends up against the ground , compressed towards the body ?
Well, it's like that one except this time the wrist is trapped bent against uke's own armpit, and both arms get the same treatment.
it's actually pretty funny since uke ends up on their stomach, arms in chickenwing position, and the urge to flop around is hard to resist.
My experience of it is that it's more uncomfortable than painful.
don't get so uptight, Hooker Sensei is one of the most caring Aikido instructors I've ever seen/listened to /read from; pretty ironic to hear him accused of harming an uke as he's so adamant about the philosophy of Aikido.

kironin
06-12-2002, 07:00 PM
Originally posted by AikiAlf
Hooker Sensei showed his that pin at a seminar at the ADV dojo. Have you seen the classic tanto-tori pin where uke's knife arm is bent and then the wrist ends up against the ground , compressed towards the body ?
Well, it's like that one except this time the wrist is trapped bent against uke's own armpit, and both arms get the same treatment.
...

Actually, now that you describe it, it jogged a memory of him teaching this or something close to it at the first Aikido-l seminar in San Antonio in 1998.

funny that I had forgotten about it.

Craig

PeterR
06-12-2002, 08:36 PM
Originally posted by AikiAlf
Well, it's like that one except this time the wrist is trapped bent against uke's own armpit, and both arms get the same treatment.
it's actually pretty funny since uke ends up on their stomach, arms in chickenwing position, and the urge to flop around is hard to resist.
My experience of it is that it's more uncomfortable than painful.

Do I get to try this at home?

Matt Ashley
06-12-2002, 09:32 PM
Thanks everybody for the help.

One of the reasons I ask is that many of Aikido's traditional pins (at least the ones I know) don't seem to be very robust. I certainly have been pinned effectively by experienced aikidoka, but I notice that most pins take a large amount of skill, practice, ki extension, etc. to execute well. I know there isn't a "foolproof" pin and that practice is important. It's just hard to imagine somebody (less than a shihan) really controlling an attacker in and ikkyo pin with his tegatana.

I'm just curious if there are any more practical pins that are consistent with the ethics of Aikido. What would you use to restrain an attacker on the street?



Matt

PeterR
06-12-2002, 10:05 PM
Originally posted by Matt Ashley
It's just hard to imagine somebody (less than a shihan) really controlling an attacker in and ikkyo pin with his tegatana.

I'm just curious if there are any more practical pins that are consistent with the ethics of Aikido. What would you use to restrain an attacker on the street?

Hi Matt;

I guess it's how you use that tegatana. Try looking at it as a joint manipulation in conjunction with the particular wrist grab employed. Also coming into play is where you place your knees. Sorry to say I found much of the practical application of pins to be sorely lacking during much Aikido practice.

If you are interested there are a series of pins from Ikkyo presented here
http://www.shodokan.ch/en/index.html

go English -> Technical Reference -> Kihon Suwariwaza

There are a number of other pins I know and love but no animations - sorry.

Two further points about pins that might be good for discussion.

Usually pins lock nage up as much as uke - not a good situation when multiple attackers abound. Few allow Nage to maintain mobility.

I think it is important for uke to struggle a bit to see if the pin can be maintained. Most of the pins have a "secret" that becomes obvious with resistance. Practicing a form does not give you that - same is true for any Aikido technique.

willy_lee
06-13-2002, 12:34 PM
I've seen some self-retaining pins in pictures of Daito-ryu techniques. There are some really crazy ones -- especially the ones that involve pinning multiple attackers on top of each other.

It's also interesting to see that in the pictures I've seen, nage usually ends up keeping the pin on by dint of position and some pressure with legs, knees, hips -- both hands are free, head is up to be ready to deal with other attackers.

Interesting stuff.

=wl

davoravo
06-19-2002, 06:19 AM
The Yoshinkan sensei I used to train with would do some of those multiple attacker pins; great stuff but a little bit scary as sometimes an uke would land on top of my bent wrist.

His favourite pin was a version of the standard pin from kotegaeshi where he would sit on uke's scapula with uke's arm coming up between his thighs and somehow twisted and trapped against his (nage's) hip leaving both of nage's arms free.

I always felt I couldn't sit smoothly enough to do this without samashing uke's shoulder.

paw
06-19-2002, 09:04 AM
After leaving this thread alone until now, I have come to a tremendiously shocking conclusion.

I agree with Bruce:

There are only two self retaining pins...

Unconsciousness.

Death.


Try as I might, I cannot escape my skepticism for some of the examples that have been given, provided uke is allowed to resist. From experience, I can attest that people are quite capable of getting up without the use of their arms if no one is applying direct pressure to them. (I've witnessed purple belts in bjj place both arms in their belt (no use of arms) and then proceed to not only avoid being pinned, but submit their partner).

Perhaps I missed something?

Regards,

Paul

AikiAlf
06-28-2002, 11:20 AM
I think you're missing the part where it's said that these are the ultimate pin /techniques which would work against everyone allways.

the pin I saw demonstrated did allow for time to walk away, which was nice. it also allowed for killing the other guy while he was defenseless.

I would have to assume that if uke can still get up, nage can still respond.

paw
06-28-2002, 01:03 PM
Alfonso,

I think you're missing the part where it's said that these are the ultimate pin /techniques which would work against everyone allways.

Not at all. I've got enough ne waza experience to know that's not the case.

My point of skepticism is "self-retaining". I believe I have enough ne waza experience to doubt there is such a thing, provided uke is unwilling to be pinned and conscious.


the pin I saw demonstrated did allow for time to walk away, which was nice. it also allowed for killing the other guy while he was defenseless.

"Demonstrated" isn't quite the same thing as pinning an unwilling, competant opponent.


I would have to assume that if uke can still get up, nage can still respond.

Agreed. But then the pin wasn't self-retaining.

If it helps, I've got the same doubts about "one-finger" pins. BJJ'ers, wrestlers, sombists, judoka, etc... have some pretty strong incentives to develop unstoppable pins that work against anyone all the time. As you pointed out earlier (and I agreed with) there isn't any such thing. Hence I have even more doubts about a "self-retaining" pin.

Given my experience, Bruce's reply rings most true to me (death or unconsciousness are the only two "self-retaining" pins).

Regards,

Paul

SeiserL
06-28-2002, 04:21 PM
Originally posted by paw
Given my experience, Bruce's reply rings most true to me (death or unconsciousness are the only two "self-retaining" pins).

Then those will be the only two you will be able to do successfully. Neither of which are all that hard to learn.

Until again,

Lynn

AikiAlf
06-28-2002, 04:41 PM
Hi Paul. I think we're talking cross purposes here. The thread started was a question of whether there were pins that didn't involve maintaining constant pressure. Mr. Seiser described something that I've happened to see demonstrated, and had a short (seminar-short) opportunity to practice.

Whether you should use a technique or not is beside the point. I think ideally you apply what is advantageous for yourself, and if you subscribe to Aikido philosophy as understood by the masses, restrain from killing , maiming or violating your opponent.. or if you do you do so lovingly;)

Techniques are a library, a toolset. Some are more exotic tools than others. If you're into competition sports you're probably looking at the most effective tools to win that competition, and in that case you may choose your own tools.

since I don't I'm just collecting tools for the sake of a hobbyist collecting them. I think there are some of these which could be called "self-retaining pins".

In any case given your advice I won't try that one on someone who isn't stunned enough to let me try..

paw
06-30-2002, 10:06 PM
Alfonso,

. I think we're talking cross purposes here. The thread started was a question of whether there were pins that didn't involve maintaining constant pressure. Mr. Seiser described something that I've happened to see demonstrated, and had a short (seminar-short) opportunity to practice.

We may be miscommunicating. I'm taking issue with the phrase "constant pressure". Without some constant pressure, I will be able to move, and therefore escape. Which means I will not be pinned (provided, that I am conscious)




Lynn,


Then those will be the only two you will be able to do successfully. Neither of which are all that hard to learn.

I bet I've pinned more folks than you've killed or rendered unconscious. ;)

Up past bedtime,

Paul