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jester
06-23-2011, 08:36 PM
With all the talk about IP/IS, does Judo use it?

I haven't seen it discusses yet.

Cady Goldfield
06-23-2011, 10:19 PM
AFAIK, one person within judo did "have it," and applied it to HIS judo.
You might enjoy the clips and commentary here:
http://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=3201&st=0&sk=t&sd=a

bob_stra
06-24-2011, 05:17 AM
With all the talk about IP/IS, does Judo use it?

I haven't seen it discusses yet.

Why would you - on an Aikido forum?

Simsalabim! Click here (http://tinyurl.com/6l2996c)


http://www.tnfj.com/Images/Smilies/Wizard.gif

phitruong
06-24-2011, 06:56 AM
With all the talk about IP/IS, does Judo use it?

I haven't seen it discusses yet.

it's in the Go No Kata, but not the way they currently do it in judo. in the same vein to karate with Sanchin Kata in some karate branches.

jester
06-24-2011, 09:56 AM
Why would you - on an Aikido forum?

Well Bob, because this was posted in the Non-Aikido Martial Traditions Forum. ;)

jester
06-24-2011, 10:02 AM
it's in the Go No Kata, but not the way they currently do it in judo. in the same vein to karate with Sanchin Kata in some karate branches.

Thanks Phi, is this your first post without humor?? :D

I wonder if there's a video of Mifune doing it. I'll check around.

-

Mike Sigman
06-24-2011, 10:22 AM
With all the talk about IP/IS, does Judo use it?

I haven't seen it discusses yet.

From Aikido Shugyo (p.76) by Gozo Shioda:

Another important point is that kokyu power is not limited to Aikido alone. Originally, it was certainly a part of all Japanese martial arts. While it was referred to by different names, Judo, Karate or any of the various other martial arts all had ways of practising kokyu power. But somewhere along the line it fell into disuse. I believe that therein lies the decline of Japanese martial arts.

Mike Sigman

jester
06-24-2011, 10:27 AM
AFAIK, one person within judo did "have it," and applied it to HIS judo.
You might enjoy the clips and commentary here:
http://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=3201&st=0&sk=t&sd=a

Can any of the claims that Bodywork made be substantiated? They sound more like the tall tales of Paul Bunyan. :blush:

That Mifune clip is really nice! Here's another one showing a self defense kata: http://youtu.be/qoI1edDisMM

-

bob_stra
06-24-2011, 10:49 AM
Well Bob, because this was posted in the Non-Aikido Martial Traditions Forum. ;)

Well, here the thing, Tim. If people within Judo are (by and large) dis-interested / not knowledgeable on the topic (bear in mind some of these folks have senior dan ranks and many years in service) what chance do you think there is for informed discussion about judo by non judoka on a niche sub-forum?

For example, you have a reference and assurance to look towards Mifune. Yet, we have no evidence one way or another (the video linked to doesn't really show anything conclusive) of Mifune's IS skills.

It's my opinion that there's is a certain hallowed awe over Mifune. That's all well and good, but let's not take veneration as a substitute for proof. To date, I've seen no evidence of Mifune demonstrating the tell-tale manifestations of IS.

However, here are some interesting tidbits that fall within that realm


You were talking the other day about the ki, chi, that kind of thing. I'd like to know what you think about that.

Ki and chi are the same thing. You better, about ki and chi, ask Chinese people or other Asian people. Because they talk about ki and chi. I can tell you only that Koizumi, when he wanted to talk about it, there was an international congress of Judo black belts in London and I was one of them. There were about 500 there. And we had a special course conducted by Koizumi. And then in the middle of the course, on the fifth day, suddenly he says, “Now I am going to talk to you about the most important principle in Judo training, about the saika-tanden.” Some people call it tantien, the seat of chi, ki, or whatever you like, but it's the saika-tanden in Japanese. “But Feldenkrais come here,” and he said to the whole assemblage, “I believe he will talk to you about the saika-tanden more sensibly and in a way in which you'll understand. It is something which I feel and know, but which I cannot explain.” And then he let me explain that for the people there. And he wrote the preface to my book. The thing is this, when you talk of such matters in my way, nobody will take it for ki and chi or anything you like. You see, most people talk about that as if it's a mysterious kind of thing in the lower abdomen with all sorts of metaphysical meanings and powers. I have no connection with that. And therefore, my way of thinking is actually a useless thing to such people. If you challenge them on that they'll say, “Ah, what does he know? He is only a scientist.”

]But this is only a semantic difference, isn't it?[/B]


Oh, no. A semantic difference? No. Ghosts are a semantic difference? Ghosts are something which if you believe in and you are afraid of a ghost, you are afraid of a ghost You will never go into a haunted house.

Yes, but you must know … It's not semantic, but you must know from your practice something, the importance of this, what they call in the language, tanden.

Of course, I know. And their description of it, while it may be … My description of it is only in movement, I am not concerned with any of the other things.

But does it not come to the same thing?


No, it doesn't because, you see, in the one, if you say you've got chi, many people would try to be like you and do like you, and if they fail will say, “Oh, I could never get chi.” To get chi, you have to possess moral courage, you have to be connected with the higher spheres of things. Therefore, you find that this is an impediment in the learning. (To a questioner) Have you chi?

I could not say that.

Oh, therefore, if you can't say it, that's what I'm talking about. You can work 20 years and you don't show it. You're not sure if you have it or you don't. Because if it's a mysterious quantity, then you must deserve it, you must be a part of an elite group, or you must be born in China. How will you get chi if it's a metaphysical thing that nobody knows what it is? Well, it's a quality like psychic healing, if you're a healer, you're a healer. If you don't heal, you are not. Now, chi is the same thing. Either you've got it or you ain't got it. If you've got it, you've got it. If you ain't got it, you ain't got it (Laughter) It's almost like EST.

But what you're talking about is different.

Yes. I told you. In movement, I can show you what chi is, what ki is, on you or anybody else. Can you see that my notions on breathing are different from anything you heard before and you will ever hear? You can see it, you can test it, on yourself, and there is a marked difference between the one and the other, provided that you can make the contrast.

Okay, for example, in martial arts training, in Aikido, where they have the notion of the unbendable arm or they talk about focusing somewhere, like a couple of inches below the navel and a couple of inches inside the lower abdomen, and then having your weight underside and not being stiff, but not relaxed, but having your attention …

Well, I don't know that it's a few inches here and a few inches there. It has to do with the full organization of your body, you can see it in whatever you do. You actually get chi through using the pelvis and the lower abdominal muscles, the strong muscles of the body as a unit concentrated from where all push or pull is issued. The rest of the body and the arms needn't be powerful. It is not a muscle, it is not a point. It has nothing to do with this point, because if it were a point … Look, if you move your body like that, the point is gone (makes a move to demonstrate, a shift in the center of gravity to outside the body). A point a few inches there, a few inches here, if you go there, you will find that it is full of shit, literally. (Laughter) That point is full of shit. And this is the point of chi.

So, will you teach us this organization?

What do you want it for? You don't want to fight. You don't. What do you want?

Is it used only in fighting or is it a whole organization that is serving you in any other action?


Oh, of course, it serves me. I believe a dancer is not a dancer without that reorganization. That is why most dancers are half-cooked dancers.

Why would we go through life without it?

You wouldn't know it. And nobody would do the amount of work that is necessary to get it because they will have to change their dancing.

But people like us can learn it?

I am teaching you whether you want it or not. The improvement in your movement that you get moving the head free so that the pelvis can produce the necessary power, that's ki. What did Kano do? That's all. He stands there, you can't push him. If he wants to push you, you go wherever he wants. So the mysterious development of chi is efficient use of the equipment that everybody has. It is that question which needs, in order to understand it, a tremendous amount of knowledge.

And as usual, it's easier to teach people without teaching understanding, by saying, look, this is it, imitate me. Look, I stand here unmovable. You can't move me. Now push me, you can't push me. If I push you, you move.

Now and then they have you send the chi down to the ground and bring it back up, each way. It is a marvelous technique. But you know in a way, it's interesting that they teach that way because, if the motor cortex is responsible for directing the organization of the body, then to tell someone to send their energy down would cause them to organize their body differently and so their weight would be more difficult to move.

But, if you say you send your energy … how do you send energy here or there, show me any instance where you can send energy anywhere. In our work we can do something with awareness and without awareness, something just purely done in a mechanical fashion and we can also pay attention to making some movement. So I see the concept of ki and chi as an incredible impediment to learning and I see people in classes, Aikido and Kung Fu and whatever, and it's just a struggle. They can never get it. They never get it because the idea of chi or ki is preposterous. How can you get it if it's a point in your stomach? What would you do with such a point? What can you do with it? What change will it make to you? Now, it sounds a mysterious kind of super power that you get from somewhere in the point in your stomach, and that point described properly, is the duodenum lying there and is literally full of shit.

Your teacher, and Kano, were trained with that notion in a cultural matrix that allowed them to not view it all so mysteriously.


Oh, certainly. And Kano, when he had already a school where most of people could beat anybody in Japan, he brought a boy that was 14 years old into the dojo and none of those big experts could throw him because that boy had a natural what they called tai-sabaki, meaning hips moving away. You could never break his balance, he always slid away, whatever you did to him, like a cat. Balance. He was always coming back on his feet, whatever you did to him. And most people couldn't get a grip on him, if you pulled him he was with you, but you could never make his pelvis go outside the feet, whatever you did, and they were very peeved. They said, look, Judo is no good. He said, you are no good. This chap will be here until you learn to do like he does, or learn how to fight that sort of thing. Only then will you have a better saika-tanden than he. He is better than any one of you, therefore you have to learn


There are other articles I could cite here, too, but if you really understand the topic of IS, then you'll understand why this passage is particularly illustrative of early judo.

Of course, I'm not sure aikiweb is the right place to have these kinds of discussion, at least to any productive end :D

By the way, you can a good clip of Go-No-kata by searching DailyMotion; I invite you to analyse it and start discussion thereon if you are really interested in this topic (beyond just chewing the fat). You never know who could come out of the wood work...

jester
06-24-2011, 11:08 AM
what chance do you think there is for informed discussion about judo by non judoka on a niche sub-forum?

It's a shot in the dark but you never know what will stick to the wall! You posted and it seems you have some Judo background.

I have no clue what the IP/IS thing is about and when it comes to Aikido but I wanted to see how it applies or doesn't apply to other arts.

Since the Aikido I study is based on Judo principals , I'd like to try that avenue to see what people have to say about it.

Thanks for the info.

bob_stra
06-24-2011, 11:26 AM
It's a shot in the dark but you never know what will stick to the wall! You posted and it seems you have some Judo background.


Well, sure. Those of us interested in the topic of IS frequent this place from time to time; there's useful (and not so useful) info archived here.

I have no clue what the IP/IS thing is about and when it comes to Aikido but I wanted to see how it applies or doesn't apply to other arts.


Sure. I think the application to upright grappling pretty interesting myself

Pat Togher
06-24-2011, 11:51 AM
There are other articles I could cite here, too, but if you really understand the topic of IS, then you'll understand why this passage is particularly illustrative of early judo.



Wow, the article you cited was great.
Could you share more?

Pat

jester
06-24-2011, 12:00 PM
Wow, the article you cited was great.
Could you share more?

Pat

I believe it came from Moshe Feldenkrais:
http://exp22.blogspot.com/2008/04/blog-post.html

other links I found interesting:
http://judoinfo.com/feldenkrais.htm
http://judoinfo.com/tomiki.htm

bob_stra
06-24-2011, 12:07 PM
Wow, the article you cited was great.
Could you share more?

Pat

Well, here's one I just cited elsewhere today -

From Trevor Leggett

Stylization
Look at Figure 3. Here the man is extending his arm, which he takes round in a big circle, finally forming the hand into a fist and directing it at the opponent. This is the first move of one of the Junokata sequences. The preliminary action is, of course, quite artificial and would never precede any real blow. There are a number of such moves in Junokata, and some people wonder why they are there.

One purpose is to train what is called Nai-ki, or 'inner energy'. When making the big circle of the arm, draw in the breath and feel the energy running right down to the extended finger-tips till they tingle with it. Perhaps our present physiology has no satisfactory explanation as yet, but it is a fact that students who practice these methods do display exceptional energy and fine coordination even into old age. The subject deserves further investigation, but meantime the practice is there to be taken advantage of.

I believe there's an article by Steve Cunningham that discusses the role of these mechanics in judo, though I don't have a cite handy; I know he goes into some related material in his video series "Core Throwing Techniques of Kodokan Judo (Dai-ikkyo)".

http://www.usja-judo.org/judotape.htm

Of course, there's more to it then this, but I've always appreciated that Steve Cunningham is willing to think and investigate

EDIT: That original article comes by way of Feldenkrais, however if you read it, it's not about Feldenkrais, per se. I don't think you'll find much directly in what your after looking for within Moshe's written works (at least in this respect): in general, his books are not so explicative. However, given the above interview, it's very likely he knew about the topic at hand (and within a judo context), Given the identity of Feldenkrais' primary Judo teacher - and his background - I think some pretty interesting hypotheses could be suggested.

However, if it's all the same, I'd prefer not to get into historical minutae like this on aikiweb: I think it would serve us all much better to discuss and analyse concrete physical examples etc. Assuming of course were not just shooting the breeze and gawking at Mifune :)

DH
06-24-2011, 01:37 PM
Can any of the claims that Bodywork made be substantiated? They sound more like the tall tales of Paul Bunyan. :blush:
-
Nice. I appreciate the insult.
I don't tell tales. As for my statements; they have been vetted and substantiated many times, to include a whole lot of people here. And not only with judo-ka but with guys with established fight records who can deliver a hell of a lot more pressure than judo-ka do.
Look, I both taught and defended the notion of this "improbable aiki nonsense" INSIDE of Judo/MMA dojos as well as with ICMA teachers who I was told by supposedly informed people were miles ahead of me. I don't really care to be the flavor of the day or the fastest draw in the west. No one is undefeatable, there is always someone better. But after what I have now felt or other times "seen" of who I have wasted years debating, you'll have to pardon me if I am not interested in debating about the Chinese method over the Japanese method, or the Western over Eastern.
On the net, tempers flare and people get protective of systems, ranks and beliefs. I know what IP/aiki can deliver and offer to people, and in person these internet debates usually always end nicely and in people wanting to train it.
See ya
Dan

Howard Popkin
06-24-2011, 02:24 PM
I am not interested in debating about the Chinese method over the Japanese method, or the Western over Eastern.

See ya
Dan

I'm quite fond of the Spencer, Mass. method myself.

Big Fan :)

DH
06-24-2011, 02:30 PM
I'm quite fond of the Spencer, Mass. method myself.

Big Fan :)
Really, it is interesting to see how cavalier people can be with their comments from behind a keyboard, compared to how nice it usually turns out person. Here, I'm a con man, snake oil salesman, liar, and scam artist. Why bother?
Cheers
Dan

jester
06-24-2011, 02:35 PM
Nice. I appreciate the insult.


Didn't know it was you but reading it gave me the feeling of reading about superman. With claims like this it's good to say where the info was found. My Grandfather once told me "Believe none of what you read and only half of what you see".

No offense to you but I take the "trust me I was told by someone but won't mention names" stories with a grain of salt.

As far as the Mifune video, what I see Mifune do in that video clip at 1:55 is to hit the line perpendicular to his opponent's feet with a Sacrifice Throw. That line of off balance is a basic Judo principal. I saw nothing to show otherwise. Great timing and execution! The Hiza Guruma he does at the end is nice!

http://youtu.be/uFXbuszijCM

I'm not debating what you see since I don't understand what you are teaching so could you explain what you are seeing in the video and how Mifune's throw would differs from the average Judoka?

-

DH
06-24-2011, 03:51 PM
1. Didn't know it was you but reading it gave me the feeling of reading about superman. With claims like this it's good to say where the info was found. My Grandfather once told me "Believe none of what you read and only half of what you see".

No offense to you but I take the "trust me I was told by someone but won't mention names" stories with a grain of salt.
I'm not debating what you see since I don't understand what you are teaching so could you explain what you are seeing in the video and how Mifune's throw would differs from the average Judoka?
-
You just said it was pointless. Stick with your grandfather. Lets see, reading...no good, seeing no good...Did he tell you what to do when you keep landing on your ass?
Dan

jester
06-24-2011, 04:00 PM
You just said it was pointless. Stick with your grandfather. Lets see, reading...no good, seeing no good...Did he tell you what to do when you keep landing on your ass?
Dan

:rolleyes:

jester
06-24-2011, 04:04 PM
If you mean a 2nd 3rd or 4th hand story of an event that may or may not have happened over 80 years ago then yes, pointless.

Better to have a first hand account to try and understand what you see in the Judo video to get a better insight to what you are espousing.

-

DH
06-24-2011, 05:17 PM
If you mean a 2nd 3rd or 4th hand story of an event that may or may not have happened over 80 years ago then yes, pointless.

Better to have a first hand account to try and understand what you see in the Judo video to get a better insight to what you are espousing.

-
Hey I'm not espousing anything. And you can't go by first hand accounts no matter how experienced they are....ask people here. Your Grandfather says it's all a scam, don't believe anything.

Think of it...I mean, seriously...what are the odds that these Asians know anything that sport science and you ...haven't figured out already right?
Mifune's just a combination of those guys not trying real hard and good technique.
Cardio, core training, kettle bells, (it will help you rip them over in Seoi nage) and you'll be just fine.
Cheers!
Dan

bob_stra
06-24-2011, 07:16 PM
Of course, I'm not sure aikiweb is the right place to have these kinds of discussion, at least to any productive end :D



By the way, you can a good clip of Go-No-kata by searching DailyMotion; I invite you to analyse it and start discussion thereon if you are really interested in this topic (beyond just chewing the fat).

Q.E.D

:dead:

Oh well. Maybe in another life.

jester
06-24-2011, 08:24 PM
Q.E.D
Oh well. Maybe in another life.

Daily Motion was blocked by our firewall at work. Just saw this version now. http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6tcef_go-no-kata-kodokan_creation

Very interesting. Some of it looks like modern judo competition! :D

There's also some clean footage of some of the Koshiki no Kata (http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2hdl8_kata-de-maitre-jigoro-kano_sport).

Anyway, this topic can be officially closed.

-

DH
06-24-2011, 09:14 PM
"......if you go there, you will find that it is full of shit, literally. (Laughter) That point is full of shit. And this is the point of (ki)chi."

"They never get it because the idea of chi or ki is preposterous. How can you get it if it's a point in your stomach?.... Now, it sounds a mysterious kind of super power that you get from somewhere in the point in your stomach, and that point described properly, is the duodenum lying there and is literally full of shit."
Ya. Really informed and useful opinions there from whatever source. :rolleyes:
As useful as you then you telling us "Don't believe anything you read, and only half of what you hear."
Great conversation starter.
Good bye now.
Dan

jester
06-24-2011, 11:12 PM
Don't be so coy Dan. If you don't feel like discussing the video, please feel free to move along.

I didn't start this thread to be a pissing match. Just an avenue to figure out what it is you are talking about.

DH
06-24-2011, 11:20 PM
Don't be so coy Dan. If you don't feel like discussing the video, please feel free to move along.
I didn't start this thread to be a pissing match. Just an avenue to figure out what it is you are talking about.
Yes you did. You were disingenuous from the jump.

Lorel Latorilla
06-25-2011, 02:03 AM
Jester:

You ought to be reported for backpedalling, passive-aggressiveness, and backhanded insults. I say, if you think dude is talking tall tales, prove it...here, or on the mat.

bob_stra
06-25-2011, 03:31 AM
Ya. Really informed and useful opinions

Just so that were on the record: you disagree with the notion that ki is bodily skill or do you just like making noise?

there from whatever source. :rolleyes:

Well, Feldenkrais studied directly with Kano, (in Japan), Koizumi and and Mifune (amongst others).

Who did you study with again, Dan, such that we should place your reflections on Judo above his?


As useful as you then you telling us "Don't believe anything you read, and only half of what you hear."


Why not read the article and pick something substantive to elaborate on instead of taking cheap pot shots?


Great conversation starter.


Hmm. It's a direct recollection and explanation from someone there at the time. What's more, it's quite direct in stating how ki was viewed in judo circles at the time.



Good bye now.
Dan

Sure. You too.

sakumeikan
06-25-2011, 06:18 AM
It's a shot in the dark but you never know what will stick to the wall! You posted and it seems you have some Judo background.

I have no clue what the IP/IS thing is about and when it comes to Aikido but I wanted to see how it applies or doesn't apply to other arts.

Since the Aikido I study is based on Judo principals , I'd like to try that avenue to see what people have to say about it.

Thanks for the info.
Dear Tim,
The principles applied to Judo and Aikido are not the same. Judo ;when pushed /pull.When pulled push.Aikido when pulled;Enter .When Pushed :turn and push.As a long term judoka/aikidoka you will be mixed up if you apply Judo principles to aikido.In the first place the posture is different, the maai is different and the initial contact with uke/control of uke is different.Judoka close the maai and due to their posture [shizentai etc ] they can be kicked /punched fairly easily before/on establishing contact.Of course once contact is established
a throw can be set up or if the encounter goes to the ground the judoka can apply ne waza.Judoka in general do not train in atemi.
As a footnote most if not all my own teachers were Budo trained.Judo to me is closer to Iaido/Kendo in tai sabaki / foot work.Aikido uses hamni /judo shizentai +Jigotai.
Cheers, Joe.

sakumeikan
06-25-2011, 06:44 AM
Wow, the article you cited was great.
Could you share more?

Pat
Dear Pat,
Unless I am mistaken reference to the seika tanden[tantien ] is made in a book on Judo by E.J.Harrison.The tanden according to Eastern viewpoints is the source of/ centre of Ki /power.If one acquires the ability to activate /use the tanden a person can become light as a feather /or be come a heavy as a mountain.Of course this is not saying a man loses or gains weight.
My own judo teacher [who was 90 % disabled]in over thirteen years no one who ever came to the dojo ever threw him.When attempting to throw him it was like moving a building.
In aikido Tamura Sensei[ a great man ] was tiny yet very few guys could budge him.He would just stand a smile while you tried in vain to move him.He is a great loss to the aikido community.
Cheers, Joe

DH
06-25-2011, 08:17 AM
Just so that were on the record: you disagree with the notion that ki is bodily skill or do you just like making noise?
Disagree with Feldenkrais? Yes I do. On just what part...well that might have been an interesting discussion.
Hmm. It's a direct recollection and explanation from someone there at the time. What's more, it's quite direct in stating how ki was viewed in judo circles at the time.
I don't care how Ki was viewed by Feldenkrais. Nor was his opinion a reflection of how ki was viewed by everyone in Judo. In fact his quotes about ki not being in the tanden and being shit, directly contradicts other writings of those who trained in judo at that time and which are available elsewhere.
And to help you, since it escaped your attention, he was making a case for disagreeing with those in Judo. in your own quote he makes it clear he was in fact disagreeing with a widely held belief. ;)
And what makes this open for opinion? Because anything is open for opinion when you don't know the subject.

Why not read the article and pick something substantive to elaborate on instead of taking cheap pot shots?
I have read it I am sparing you tall tales and half truths which are not really worth your time reading. Although, if we borrow some advice from Tim's Grandfather; you should apparently not believe anything that Feldenkrais wrote and only half of what he says -though that doesn't quite add up or make sense anyway does it?
Speaking of which, the cheap pot shots started a long time ago. Why didn't you say something then if cheap shots bother you? They don't really help do they? Nor are they conducive to good conversation. Something to think about going in next time.
I'll leave you to reading more opinion.
Dan

jester
06-25-2011, 10:16 AM
Dear Tim,
The principles applied to Judo and Aikido are not the same. Judo ;when pushed /pull.When pulled push.Aikido when pulled;Enter .When Pushed :turn and push.As a long term judoka/aikidoka you will be mixed up if you apply Judo principles to aikido.In the first place the posture is different, the maai is different and the initial contact with uke/control of uke is different.Judoka close the maai and due to their posture [shizentai etc ] they can be kicked /punched fairly easily before/on establishing contact.Of course once contact is established
a throw can be set up or if the encounter goes to the ground the judoka can apply ne waza.Judoka in general do not train in atemi.
As a footnote most if not all my own teachers were Budo trained.Judo to me is closer to Iaido/Kendo in tai sabaki / foot work.Aikido uses hamni /judo shizentai +Jigotai.
Cheers, Joe.

Thanks for the info Joe. Tomiki Aikido was developed for Judo players. It follows those principals. Although the techniques are different looking, a principal is a principal and you have to understand what is happening in terms of off balance etc.

For instance, take Kote Gaeshi and Osoto Gari. They look totally different but they really aren't. You can get Uke in the same position with either technique. It's the off balance that puts uke in a certain position. That's how I see it.

I have a book from 1957 that Kenji Tomiki wrote entitled Judo and Aikido. Chapter 4 is titled "Explaination of Aikido Techniques According to the Principals of Judo".

They are very similar you just have to look at it from another angle.

-

jester
06-25-2011, 10:35 AM
Jester:

You ought to be reported for backpedalling, passive-aggressiveness, and backhanded insults. I say, if you think dude is talking tall tales, prove it...here, or on the mat.

Lorel, did you even take the time to read the post that I was referring to as a tall tale? If you didn't, here it is. If you have nothing to ad, why even post? :freaky:

Of further interest may be an incident in the late 1930's when Takeda Sokaku (founder of Daito ryu aikijujutsu) stormed the stage at the budokan in front of a large public crowd filled with seriously educated budo men and a general audience gathered there for a budo exhibition. He started ranting how "the arts being shown were not the true arts of Japan and how the modern arts had ruined true bujutsu of Japan, That what was being shown was fake and he needed to show real bujutsu for the sake of the country! (not way to win friends and influence people eh?). He proceeded to then challenge the 5th, and 6th dans (Judoka as it was reported) to all come at him at once and do what they would. He started tossing them all over the stage and pinning them and insulting them while he did so in a loud voice. Many there were angry and found it startling and awe inspiring all at the same time. One fellow a student of Ueshiba and a koryu weapons guy said many were whispering in the crowd suddenly realizing who it was they were watching "Takeda!"
Oddly one account I read the Budo man himself a tenth dan and Koryu menkyo said it was 'thee most stunning display of budo he had ever seen before or since!" And yet Takeda was so frightening and rude that he would never consider training with him.
Okay
Next story.
I have it on good authority from another Koryu menkyo, who was told that at the Kodokan -every once in a while this little old man would show up unannounced and Kano would say to his guys "hey, try to throw that old man!" the seniors would beg off, but the new bully boys would give it a whirl, and not be able to throw the old guy but would instead get their asses handed to them. One event that was notable was a guy who gave the old dude a hard time not playing by the rules. Supposedly the old dud tatpped him on the hip and dislocated it. Who was the old guy. Ueshiba! The founder of Aikido and senior student of....? Takeda.
I have played with enough Master level teachers of the ICMA to know that the internal methods of the Japanese arts must have come from China, there are just too many similarities. Unfortunately, the Japanese arts are just like the Chinese ones. Most people are doing waza and want to only learn how to fight. And while they attain high rank and either are or..these days it is fair to say WERE...convinced they knew about internals...They really don't have a clue about the deeper stuff.

Dan

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Lorel Latorilla
06-25-2011, 10:42 AM
Oops. Didn't read that part. My bad. Ima exit outta here now.

jester
06-25-2011, 11:04 AM
Oops. Didn't read that part. My bad. Ima exit outta here now.

I should have quoted that in the first place. People are just passionate about this topic.

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sakumeikan
06-25-2011, 11:07 AM
Thanks for the info Joe. Tomiki Aikido was developed for Judo players. It follows those principals. Although the techniques are different looking, a principal is a principal and you have to understand what is happening in terms of off balance etc.

For instance, take Kote Gaeshi and Osoto Gari. They look totally different but they really aren't. You can get Uke in the same position with either technique. It's the off balance that puts uke in a certain position. That's how I see it.

I have a book from 1957 that Kenji Tomiki wrote entitled Judo and Aikido. Chapter 4 is titled "Explaination of Aikido Techniques According to the Principals of Judo".

They are very similar you just have to look at it from another angle.

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Dear Tim,
Its quite a jump to connect a leg throw [o soto gari] with Kote Gaeshi [a te waza] .O Sotogari throws the man to his rear.Kote gaeshi rarely does this.Only thing in common between the two is the kuzushi[balance breaking ].You need to unbalance[mentally /physically] your partner before execution of any waza, be it against an opponent doing judo /aikido /sumo/pub brawls.
Tomiki Sensei being primarily a judoka [and competitive minded] would as expected would look at aikido from a judo perspective.
The book you mention came out at the same time as a quaint book by Bruce Tegner.This one was good for a laugh as was his Judo /Self Defence book.This self defence tome included defences against rabid dogs , oriental gents armed with axes etc.
I have a copy of this, offers over a thousand dollars only will be considered. Cheers, Joe.

jester
06-25-2011, 11:42 AM
Dear Tim,
Its quite a jump to connect a leg throw [o soto gari] with Kote Gaeshi [a te waza] .O Sotogari throws the man to his rear.Kote gaeshi rarely does this.Only thing in common between the two is the kuzushi[balance breaking ].You need to unbalance[mentally /physically] your partner before execution of any waza, be it against an opponent doing judo /aikido /sumo/pub brawls.
Tomiki Sensei being primarily a judoka [and competitive minded] would as expected would look at aikido from a judo perspective.
The book you mention came out at the same time as a quaint book by Bruce Tegner.This one was good for a laugh as was his Judo /Self Defence book.This self defence tome included defences against rabid dogs , oriental gents armed with axes etc.
I have a copy of this, offers over a thousand dollars only will be considered.

Cheers, Joe.

Thanks Joe! It took a few years to put it all together. It's not so far of a jump if you understand Kuzushi and what Kenji Tomiki's art is all about.

The book I am talking about was written by Kenji Tomiki himself. It only has 15 basic techniques and it's a great glimpse into how he developed his system. Here is a link to it. http://www.budovideos.com/shop/customer/product.php?productid=17014 You apparently have a different book. :p

I don't expect everyone to understand the correlations between techniques but you got the similarity which is Kuzushi! All techniques in Tomiki Aikido require it. Does it really matter how you get it?

If a wrist is turned back it puts uke on his heels (elbow goes down). If it is turned forward it puts uke on his toes (elbow goes up). In the book, Kenji Tomiki says when uke's posture is broken backwards (heels) to do ko-soto-gari or o-soto-gari. You can argue this all you want but I'll still have to agree with Kenji Tomiki. The pic in the bottom right looks a lot like the Kote Gaeshi I learned.

http://img861.imageshack.us/img861/8971/kuzushi.jpg

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bob_stra
06-25-2011, 11:48 AM
Well Dan, I don't agree with what you wrote and am happy to refute it
but I'm equally happy for people to read the quote cited and make up their own mind. I think it stands on its own merit and frankly, I think you misread or misunderstood it. C'est la vie.

How about this, instead:

Phi cited the Go-No-Kata video. It's a good video as these things go, and GNK has some interesting historical ties to older jujitsu ryu.

Would you like to have a discussion about GNK (there are related videos to boot) or do you want to call it a day?

Frankly, I'm yet to be convinced of the profit in engaging in these discussions on Aikiweb (as I said in my initial replies) but I'm willing to bet against experience. Call me hopelessly optimistic.

jester
06-25-2011, 12:03 PM
We now interrupt this discussion for a quick humor break:

http://www.collegehumor.com/article/5996384/an-honest-facebook-political-argument

Now back to the discussion. :D

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bob_stra
06-25-2011, 12:11 PM
I prefer this one

http://blogs.technet.com/cfs-filesystemfile.ashx/__key/communityserver-components-postattachments/00-02-99-89-79/wrong.jpg

Of course, for gits and shiggles, we could stick to the topic at hand, novel albeit that idea. :D

jester
06-25-2011, 02:07 PM
Dan, my Grandfather just knocked me on my ass for mis-quoting him. He said it's "believe none of what you hear and only half of what you see".

So there you have it.

Erick Mead
06-25-2011, 02:51 PM
Thanks Joe! It took a few years to put it all together. It's not so far of a jump if you understand Kuzushi and what Kenji Tomiki's art is all about.

If a wrist is turned back it puts uke on his heels (elbow goes down). If it is turned forward it puts uke on his toes (elbow goes up). In the book, Kenji Tomiki says when uke's posture is broken backwards (heels) to do ko-soto-gari or o-soto-gari. You can argue this all you want but I'll still have to agree with Kenji Tomiki. The pic in the bottom right looks a lot like the Kote Gaeshi I learned.
-FWIW, the two postures show the result of triggering the extensor reflex (pitch forward) and flexor reflex (pitch back), respectively, on the lower limbs. Read up on the Jendrassik maneuver. It can be done by applying sudden torque stretching in the upper limbs OR by sudden stretching of the lower limbs directly because the spinal reflexive circuits are connected.

O soto gari gains kuzushi by simply triggering the flexor reflex with a pop to the calf or hamstring and which is inverse to the extensor reflex that doctors demonstrate with a hammer rap to the patellar tendon.)

Enjoy.

Eric Joyce
06-27-2011, 11:38 AM
AFAIK, one person within judo did "have it," and applied it to HIS judo.
You might enjoy the clips and commentary here:
http://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=3201&st=0&sk=t&sd=a

Thanks for the link Cady. A lot of good info there.

phitruong
06-27-2011, 11:42 AM
Thanks Phi, is this your first post without humor?? :D

I wonder if there's a video of Mifune doing it. I'll check around.

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it's terrible that i posted that way. i need to be punished. i need to have a good looking judo lady to lock me down in a north-south lock. :) (many years ago when i took judo, a lady did that to me. after awhile, she noticed i didn't move. she asked why i wasn't trying to escape. my muffled reply was "i liked it here". she hit me and i rolled away laughing).

for the GNK (gonokata), it's not the throws that are important, but what happens in between, i.e. the various push-pull. there is a video of Ochiai sensei showing GNK. the things i would change would be to do the various push-pull without losing balance if the other person disappeared, along with the ability to switch from push to pull and vice versa without posture change, i.e. internal intent. there are a few more changes, but those would be the start.
*dogging and weaving now because a bunch of judo folks will jump me for sure*

Bryan
07-02-2011, 11:21 PM
Really, it is I'm a con man, snake oil salesman, liar, and scam artist. Why bother?
Cheers
Dan

Sheesh, I wish someone would have told me this before I wasted my time training with you. I'm guessing the improvements I've made in my structure and stability had nothing to do with those crappy drills you've showed us. Purely coincidence! ;)

L. Camejo
07-06-2011, 09:26 PM
Tomiki Aikido was developed for Judo players. It follows those principals. Although the techniques are different looking, a principal is a principal and you have to understand what is happening in terms of off balance etc.This is incorrect imho. Tomiki K. studied the Daito Ryu/Aikibudo/Aikido of Ueshiba M. and being highly ranked and very knowledgeable in Judo and a professor of physical education, was able to see the obvious common points between the Aikido and Judo. For him, the primary difference that influenced Aiki waza or Ju waza was ma ai. But to say that his Aikido was developed for Judo players is a great exaggeration. Being highly ranked and influential in the Judo world it definitely supported his approach to Aikido and the way he structured and formulated it. He was also heavily influenced by Kano and encouraged to continue his research into Aikido and create a structured training method similar to the Judo paradigm, but contrary to what the book Judo and Aikido (or the earlier Judo:Appendix Aikido) may lead one to believe, Tomiki was not redesigning Aikido as per Judo principles. Kuzushi is required for any Aikido technique to work, regardless of style.

For instance, take Kote Gaeshi and Osoto Gari. They look totally different but they really aren't.The main similarity between Kote Gaeshi and O Soto Gari is the direction of kake. Both go to the weak line at the back corner of the attacker. The kuzushi used to setup both techniques however are very different. The kuzushi for Kotegaeshi is to the front corner, at a lateral angle to the little toe of the leading foot while the kuzushi for O Soto Gari is to the back corner of the leading foot, planting the attacker's weight on that leg and then removing that support. In a real sense, kotegaeshi uses kuzushi to extend the spine, then compress or collapse it to the back corner. O Soto Gari uses kuzushi to compress the spine to the back corner, rendering the leg immovable, then collapse the body by removing the leg. Different forces, intents and directions in my book.

Just my 2 cents. My apologies for any thread drift.

Best
LC

jester
07-06-2011, 11:49 PM
Thanks for your input Larry. It's nice to see what other people get from their research.

I see just basic principals these days and don't get caught up with techniques. I can get Kote Gaeshi in so many ways and I see them all as the same thing.

I keep it very simple and it works out best for me..

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DH
07-07-2011, 07:34 AM
Sheesh, I wish someone would have told me this before I wasted my time training with you. I'm guessing the improvements I've made in my structure and stability had nothing to do with those crappy drills you've showed us. Purely coincidence! ;)
Hi Bryan
Yes, and someone should have told the guy with 20 years teaching grappling that this was nonsense as well. It would saved him being gassed and getting choked out by skills that oddly do not apply, or are mysteriously ...already in judo...even though no one has read about them there and most continue to argue against it. This thread being yet another example of the lack of knowledge of IP/aiki in judo....
Hope to see you again
Dan

jester
07-07-2011, 09:37 AM
This thread being yet another example of the lack of knowledge of IP/aiki in judo....

Dan

Here's you chance to fill us in, I'm all ears. How do you see it applying to Judo??

How are the set ups, throws etc different??

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Manolis
07-08-2011, 03:54 AM
Hello all,
I would like to note that to my limited knowledge there are no references in IS in Judo literature besides the one mentioned by feldenkrais and the other in Harrison's book but these are nothing but hints and in no way can prove that there was a consistent method of cultivation of IS.

Now it could be possible that if someone spent sufficient time practicing an "external" art that he could discover something "internal" that could be further developed, but this would be a matter of chance and not easily replicated. Maybe that was the case with Mifune as even if he was not very skillful in IS according to some, the way he moves is of a different quality than many excellent Judo players, powerful, explosive with excellent technique.

Another reference that might be of interest can be found by T.P.Leggett who included in his book 'Zen and the ways"a few references to ki from some Ju jutsu scrolls, the Yasenkana from Hakuin that was again included whole in "The Tiger's cave", a reference of how to coordinate breath with movement by performing simple tasks like polishing a table and some photographs of stretching maybe from a chinese scroll that described a sort of visualization.

Of course Leggett was a man of broad knowledge and the above references came not from his books on Judo but in a different context however they address the subject of ki and breath training to some extent which i suppose belongs in the same sphere with IS, but this information comes not from Judo but Jujutsu. Now again the origins of Judo were two Jujutsu schools and even if we admit that those schools had no IS to offer to their offspring this did not stop Judo from dominating other Jujutsu schools (in those famous matches ) that should have some IS

Life is a bitch

Just my 2 cent

What is your aspect?