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Siteofthor
06-16-2011, 11:41 PM
Is it possible or with time can an aikidoka actually catch a persons wrist in the moment with a resisting atacker? I am currently doing some aikido and judo atm trying to decide which one to stick with. I am not a troll, I know this is a hot topic. Aikido we have resistance and randori but in real life people dont wear judogis and its taking a toll on my body already. With aikido I am worried.i can catch a wrist or do a move in the moment. Advice? Ty. Site

L. Camejo
06-16-2011, 11:57 PM
Imho you should not aim to "catch" the wrist or sleeve so it doesn't matter if the person is wearing a Judogi or not.

What you are looking for is an intercepting movement where you use tai sabaki to get out of the way of a fast strike, use tegatana to make soft contact and then take a grip at the most opportune point to effect kuzushi for your technique (which is often where the arm is moving the slowest and/or is furthest away from the torso).

Imho the idea of whether it is possible is not a question - if you train muscle memory by using the right drills it becomes just another acquired skill. If you Google Shodokan tanto randori I'm sure you will find video clips around the concept.

Best regards

LC

Siteofthor
06-16-2011, 11:58 PM
I mean to say in judo we have resistance...

gates
06-17-2011, 12:06 AM
Hi Jon,
(Disclaimer: I am still a beginner)

"With aikido I am worried.i can catch a wrist or do a move in the moment"

Do you mean "Can't"?

You are right the practicality of Aikido is often a cause for debate.

I would assume that as you are interested in the effectiveness of the wrist locks at speed that your primary objective for training is self defense?

You should understand that in Aikido (or any MA) the application of a specific technique in a martial encounter is entirely governed by the specific parameters held in an instant. In 'attempting' to administer a wrist lock I'd suggest that you will be met with resistance and it will be difficult to apply. If however you can naturally apply the principles inherent in Aikido then it will be of benefit. Any argument of this technique, in this or that situation is utterly futile.

By staying mentally and physically calm and relaxed we can feel our opponents intention and move accordingly to a position of mutual safety.

My advice is rather than considering the effectiveness of the MA first consider your motivations for wanting to learn it (if you haven't already that it is) shop around to find a good teacher in a style that suits your personal requirements.
Keith

dps
06-17-2011, 12:27 AM
Catching wrist in midair is very difficult and in a real fight virtually impossible.

I would instead reccommend intercepting the arm with edge of your hand ( hand blade or tegatana) and sliding down the arm to capture the wrist.

dps

dps
06-17-2011, 12:39 AM
Imho you should not aim to "catch" the wrist or sleeve so it doesn't matter if the person is wearing a Judogi or not.

What you are looking for is an intercepting movement where you use tai sabaki to get out of the way of a fast strike, use tegatana to make soft contact and then take a grip at the most opportune point to effect kuzushi for your technique (which is often where the arm is moving the slowest and/or is furthest away from the torso).



A better response than mine.

Catching the hand is a fine motor skill and harder to accomplish where using the tegatana and tai sabaki are gross motor skills and easier.

dps

lbb
06-17-2011, 06:48 AM
Is it possible or with time can an aikidoka actually catch a persons wrist in the moment with a resisting atacker?

Yes, and it's also possible to actually blend with a sword so effectively that you can catch it between your palms and not get cut. Or so they say. But what's the point? Even if it can be done, it's still just a parlor trick, not a skill with practical value. Is that what you want, to learn parlor tricks?

Michael Hackett
06-17-2011, 03:35 PM
The television show "Mythbusters" investigated and tested the story of catching a live blade between the palms. They used robotic arms and ballistic gel hands for their experiments and with all sort of trick electronic devices and switches, they were unable to do it. They visited a San Francisco area Ninjutsu instructor who demonstrated the catch with one of his students. As I watched the human demonstration it appeared to me (cynic that I am) that the student wasn't delivering a killing blow that would split the body, but rather making a very controlled shomenuchi cut that stopped at the point where the palms would meet the blade. As I recall, they labeled the myth as "plausible", but very unlikely to actually happen. My view is that it was a terrific parlor trick that requires two people to have precise timing and a lot of time on their hands, along with an iaito.

Patrick Hutchinson
06-17-2011, 03:41 PM
Which inspired me to write a Ninja Swordcatchers trilogy for my boys:
Volume One: Five Fingers of Doom
Volume Two: Four fingers of Doom
Volume Three: Three Fingers etc etc

jlbrewer
06-17-2011, 06:50 PM
The television show "Mythbusters" investigated and tested the story of catching a live blade between the palms. They used robotic arms and ballistic gel hands for their experiments and with all sort of trick electronic devices and switches, they were unable to do it. They visited a San Francisco area Ninjutsu instructor who demonstrated the catch with one of his students. As I watched the human demonstration it appeared to me (cynic that I am) that the student wasn't delivering a killing blow that would split the body, but rather making a very controlled shomenuchi cut that stopped at the point where the palms would meet the blade. As I recall, they labeled the myth as "plausible", but very unlikely to actually happen.

Nope, they called it busted for a bare-handed between the palms catch. The Ninjitsu instructor demonstrated that the "correct" technique involved stepping out of the way and doing the actual blade catching (more of a block) with a hand protected by metal climbing claws like these (http://www.karatemart.com/ninja-hand-claws).

Michael Hackett
06-17-2011, 08:13 PM
You're probably right Jamie, and they busted the myth. I don't recall anything being said about getting off the line, but he was wearing those climbing mitts. I still don't think they were using a live blade in the human demonstration though. I do know one thing for sure.....it ain't a technique I'm gonna try anytime soon although I know that I can stop a shomenuchi strike from any swordsman - with my pelvis as he cuts through to there.

Siteofthor
06-17-2011, 08:19 PM
Thanks everyone for the advice. Yes I meant that I "can't", and Yes I am looking into Self-Defense. Lately I have been feeling that Judo is more realistic in terms of defense but I feel as I said like it is hard on my body and I don't want to have to worry about injuries and being out of work at any juncture. I have always been interested in Aikido because I am not a fighter, or an attacker, and it feels like it would be a good match for me in terms of my personality and I like the idea of being able to relax and it calming me, as I'm pretty stressed frequently. I'm just worried about its practicality in terms of self-defense in the real world. I've gone to aikidofaqs and read some of the stories there but everything I'm reading sounds great but I don't want to have to wait years until I can use any of this stuff and as I said I'm worried about the art as it relies alot on wrist locks. I definitely appreciate everyone's info and help and advice and I'm definitely taking it to heart.

Jon

jeremymcmillan
06-17-2011, 09:18 PM
OK, I'm a beginner, but what I'm about to say is my attempt to paraphrase a LOT of coaching I've received from a LOT of people, while not consistently applied yet I have been able to absorb and demonstrate at least occasionally. I'm getting better.

Let's stop calling it "wrist catching" and maybe for just a few moments call it "wrist interception." It's useful because the argument is that speed of movement makes "interception" of an attackers wrist difficult.

There are two concepts that need to be pondered in order to understand connecting a wrist lock with a determined attacker. First is that while the target of a particular technique (like munetsuki kotegaesh), is the wrist, Aikido techniques are not like shooting at an incoming target. That's the "Patriot Missile Defense" intercept trajectory, and it doesn't work. The best way to shoot down a missile is to launch the interceptor from as close to the launch site as possible (irimi taisabaki), at as close to the same time that the attack is launched as possible (sensen no sen), in a very similar trajectory (tenkan taisabaki).

The next concept to ponder is that once a certain level of mastery is attained, jiyu waza becomes more natural in that one doesn't go for a particular technique: nage just does Aiki movements to maintain freedom in harmony with uke's attack, and at some point nage will be in a position to easily execute a technique and uke will be in a position to just take it. So the small target of the wrist becomes a large target of uke's overall movement.

Once you get there, you have to take whatever Uke's given you for a "fat and slow" target. Just get in there and take uke's balance blending your interception from uke's upper arm down to uke's forearm, and then uke's attacking hand gets slow. Getting the kotegaesh from there is just the Tekubi Kosa Undo movement: your hands come together, and uke's hand is in between them, right at at your hara.

Oh.. one more thing: you can be a lot faster than you think if you're not slowed down by thinking. If you need to think to get the movements right, do it at the speed to get the movements right. When moving right at that speed feels "boring" then you know the distractable part of your brain is no longer necessary, you can do the movements smoothly from motor memory at whatever speed uke moves. That's not supposed to be a third concept: you have to forget the two concepts (after you've internalized them).

Michael Hackett
06-17-2011, 09:40 PM
Jon,
If self defense is your real goal, almost any of the martial arts will help you defend yourself and each has its merits and limitations. With hard study you will learn to defend yourself and others. If SD is your goal, be sure that the school provides you with the associated training to teach you when it is lawful and justified to use your "five fingered palm of death" and when it isn't. The "how" part of the SD equation is the easy part and the "when", "why" and "how much" are critically important. Someone may chime in with the old "I'd rather be tried by 12 than carried by 6" argument and I even agree to some extent. But the ramifications of using your skills improperly have life-long consequences. Just be aware.

jlbrewer
06-17-2011, 09:42 PM
I still don't think they were using a live blade in the human demonstration though.

Correct. (I dug up the clip on youtube to check). The narrator reassured the audience that the blade was dulled.

lbb
06-17-2011, 09:44 PM
I see that everyone, without exception, completely missed the point of the "catching the sword" example...

If self-defense is your goal, you are best served by developing good situational awareness, staying out of trouble and keeping your nose clean, not fantasizing about what martial art will best enable you to catch the fist of some hypothetical attacker.

If you enjoy training, then train. If you don't, don't. You don't have to justify your decision of how you spend your leisure time with some convoluted argument about the utility of the skill you're learning.

gates
06-17-2011, 10:29 PM
Jon,
Do you often find yourself in dangerous situations, or live in a bad part of town? Or have a dangerous job?
In a country with a horrible gun culture staying alert is, as Mary stated, by far and away your first line of, and perhaps most critical form of self defense.

Also you have stated that you are worried about: losing your job due to injury that hasn't happened, also feeling generally worried and stressed and also worried about the real world effectiveness of a martial art that you don't practice, and also that it will take too long to get any good.

The overriding sense that I get is that you are generally quite stressed and worried about a number of things including your own personal safety, hence the interest in Aikido and Judo.

I don't know the stats but I'd be pretty confident that stress related illness kills more people than fleet fisted bad guys, or even guns or car crashes.

So if self preservation is your priority then perhaps this is something worth considering.

Your friend in Aiki
Keith

Janet Rosen
06-17-2011, 11:44 PM
To the OP : it sounds like besides self defense you are interested in something kinder to your body or less likely to cause injury than judo. Well I've never done judo but within aikido some dojos have low injury rates and some high injury rates - I'm not talking about minor ouches that are annoying but injuries that result in time lost from training. When I did my knee injuries survey there was no one style of aikido associated with more or less injuries and there's nothing in particular I can tell you to look for and avoid. Just be aware aikido has potential for being hard on the body.

Siteofthor
06-18-2011, 12:12 AM
Some interesting responses. I most definitely appreciate the responses and the advice. I want to do a martial art because:

A.) I enjoy and am fascinated/interested in the martial arts.
B.) They help de-stress oneself and focus on things other thing real life if only for a bit.

C.)Self-Defense is a practical afterthought.

Some of the things I have said are being blown a bit out of proportion. I am not a basket case sorry guys. I'm a normal guy, living in a normal area of town, living a normal life at a normal job. My questions are more catered towards those with more experience in the art than myself and with the idea that I am currently studying both but I don't have time to continue to do so and a choice has to be made. I was and am leaning towards aikido I just thought it might be nice to get more info to make a better more educated decision from people who know more than myself so that A, B and C are somewhat covered/quantified in a sense. And please do not slice up everything I just said to make points and counterpoints and so and and so forth. For those that have been reading and giving honest opinions and ideas and being helpful you are most appreciated.

PS, Sure I haven't been injured but being worried about a future injury and not being able to work I believe is somewhat practical and does not make me out to be a hypochondriac. If you must know my toes are sore, and my back hurts sometimes when I take hard falls/throws (again I am a novice).

Thanks,
Jon

Jon

Keith,
"So if self preservation is your priority then perhaps this is something worth considering. "

Not a 100% sure what you mean?

Michael Hackett
06-18-2011, 01:26 AM
Keith was simply saying that stress is a greater danger to one than all the thugs on the street, and if you were that stressed by your life you would be wise to find a release instead of worrying about self defense.

Now that you've explained yourself more fully, my vote is for Aikido. My biased opinion is that it is easier on the body than judo in general. You CAN get hurt, or even killed doing Aikido, but it isn't very likely - riding a motorcycle on the street or commuting to work on a bicycle is probably more dangerous. Good luck and enjoy whichever choice you make.

Gorgeous George
06-18-2011, 07:05 AM
Do aikido if you want to learn to relax, and avoid trouble.
If you want to learn a bit of effective, quick to learn self-defence, maybe just do a boxing/kickboxing class every week; learning the basics of striking isn't too demanding.

DonMagee
06-18-2011, 08:29 AM
Judo is a young mans sport and well worth the effort. If your physically able to do it. I recommend it. That said you will be injured in martial arts. There is no way around that. If your job can't cope with injury, I'd suggest not training.

gates
06-18-2011, 10:55 AM
Keith,
"So if self preservation is your priority then perhaps this is something worth considering. "

Not a 100% sure what you mean?

Jon,
Firstly Jon my apologies if I got the wrong end of the Jo.

I am just trying to highlight the fact that training in Martial Arts, especially ones rooted in tradition are imparting more than physical self defense. There are as many motivations for training as there are practitioners. Your own personal motivations are what is key to finding what you need. You know this so go with your heart.

The teacher is just as important as the style, so shop around.
Good luck !

ChrisHein
06-18-2011, 12:15 PM
Aikido and Judo are both Gendai Budo-modern Japanese martial arts. Between the two, you'll get a pretty comprehensive overview of many Koryu (Japanese old schools) Jujutsu/Aikijujutsu technical syllabus.

Judo focusing mostly on unarmed techniques, one-on-one and Aikido focusing mostly on armed techniques facing multiple attackers. Both are useful, both have their place and strengths, both also have weaknesses.

If you want to gain martial ability that you can "use" you must add resistance via live sparring to your training. There is no way around this no matter what martial art you study. If you just want to study for fun, or self development either will work great.

DH
06-19-2011, 12:11 AM
Aikido and Judo are both Gendai Budo-modern Japanese martial arts. Between the two, you'll get a pretty comprehensive overview of many Koryu (Japanese old schools) Jujutsu/Aikijujutsu technical syllabus.
This is simply not correct
I have never met anyone actually ...in...koryu (not just iai) who would ever make that statement.
Aikido™ has nothing in it to give a student a comprehensive overview of Koryu: the movement, maai, weapons handling, intent, angles, and approach are much different.
Nor is it going to give you a comprehensive overview of aikijujutsu.
And Aikido™ doesn't function like koryu jujutsu.

Dan

L. Camejo
06-19-2011, 01:06 AM
Thanks everyone for the advice. Yes I meant that I "can't", and Yes I am looking into Self-Defense. Lately I have been feeling that Judo is more realistic in terms of defense but I feel as I said like it is hard on my body and I don't want to have to worry about injuries and being out of work at any juncture. I have always been interested in Aikido because I am not a fighter, or an attacker, and it feels like it would be a good match for me in terms of my personality and I like the idea of being able to relax and it calming me, as I'm pretty stressed frequently. I'm just worried about its practicality in terms of self-defense in the real world. I've gone to aikidofaqs and read some of the stories there but everything I'm reading sounds great but I don't want to have to wait years until I can use any of this stuff and as I said I'm worried about the art as it relies alot on wrist locks. I definitely appreciate everyone's info and help and advice and I'm definitely taking it to heart.

Jon
Hi John,

This post changes a lot of things imo.

If you want Budo, study Budo.

If you want Self Defence skills find a reputable Reality Based Self Defence school. Before you even do that read this website - http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/

If you want realism in terms of self defence you need to understand a lot more than just physical techniques and neither typical Judo nor Aikido training will give you what you need in these areas.

The mindsets trained in most Aikido or Sport Judo are very different to the survival mindset you need for self defence.

Best regards

LC

L. Camejo
06-19-2011, 01:07 AM
This is simply not correct
I have never met anyone actually ...in...koryu (not just iai) who would ever make that statement.
Aikido™ has nothing in it to give a student a comprehensive overview of Koryu: the movement, maai, weapons handling, intent, angles, and approach are much different.
Nor is it going to give you a comprehensive overview of aikijujutsu.
And Aikido™ doesn't function like koryu jujutsu.

Dan
Very well said.

lbb
06-19-2011, 08:03 PM
Some interesting responses. I most definitely appreciate the responses and the advice. I want to do a martial art because:

A.) I enjoy and am fascinated/interested in the martial arts.
B.) They help de-stress oneself and focus on things other thing real life if only for a bit.

C.)Self-Defense is a practical afterthought.

Some of the things I have said are being blown a bit out of proportion. I am not a basket case sorry guys. I'm a normal guy, living in a normal area of town, living a normal life at a normal job. My questions are more catered towards those with more experience in the art than myself and with the idea that I am currently studying both but I don't have time to continue to do so and a choice has to be made. I was and am leaning towards aikido I just thought it might be nice to get more info to make a better more educated decision from people who know more than myself so that A, B and C are somewhat covered/quantified in a sense.

It sure would be nice if you could quantify things that way, wouldn't it? It would make your decision very easy, and you could rest secure in the knowledge that you'd made the best choice. But you're not going to be able to quantify your A, B and C that way -- they're just too dependent on an individual's personality and situation.

PS, Sure I haven't been injured but being worried about a future injury and not being able to work I believe is somewhat practical and does not make me out to be a hypochondriac.

It doesn't make you a hypochondriac, but injury and disability is something that happens to everyone, no matter how careful they are. Not just people who study martial arts, but people just doing ordinary everyday activities. What kind of work do you do? Is there some reason why you need to be especially concerned about injury, more so than the average white collar worker?

BKK
06-20-2011, 11:07 AM
To the OP: I think it would be helpful to reframe the question. i.e. Is it possible to deal with a skilled boxer using Aikido?

If you think of the boxer's hands as weapons, then you deal with them as you would other weapons. You want to be either outside the effective range of the weapon or inside the effective range of the weapon. If you are outside you are safe for the time being, but you can't do anything to bring about an end to the conflict. If you can get inside then you can bring things to a conclusion. And there are plenty of things you can do, with Aikido technique, once you are inside. Getting inside is the tricky part, but not as tricky as trying to catch the punch of a skilled boxer. :)

ChrisHein
06-21-2011, 03:33 AM
This is simply not correct
I have never met anyone actually ...in...koryu (not just iai) who would ever make that statement.
Aikido™ has nothing in it to give a student a comprehensive overview of Koryu: the movement, maai, weapons handling, intent, angles, and approach are much different.
Nor is it going to give you a comprehensive overview of aikijujutsu.
And Aikido™ doesn't function like koryu jujutsu.

Dan

Koryu is a big field Dan.

So let's just cut it down to Koryu Jujutsu. Then, lets take a closer look at my statement and see that I specified Technical syllabus. I have seen very few physical techniques done in any Koryu Jujutsu, that are not grossly covered in either Judo or Aikido. I say grossly, because as I said in my statement, overview (overview:general review or summery of a subject).

So that is what I mean when I said: "Aikido and Judo are both Gendai Budo-modern Japanese martial arts. Between the two, you'll get a pretty comprehensive overview of many Koryu (Japanese old schools) Jujutsu/Aikijujutsu technical syllabus."

I said comprehensive because as I stated above-There are very few physical techniques in Koryu jujutsu that are not covered in Judo or Aikido. I said overview because there are indeed many smaller details that differ, or are specific to different Koryu Jujutsu, these details often differ from Koryu to Koryu as well.

Also it is quite clear that both Aikido and Judo are gendai. What is it that you are arguing Dan? I'm not saying that Aikido or Judo are koryu. I'm not saying that Aikido and Judo teach anywhere near the range that all of Koryu teaches. I'm simply saying the between the two, they generally cover most of the physical techniques that you will see in Koryu Jujutsu.

Carsten Möllering
06-21-2011, 07:49 AM
I said comprehensive because as I stated above-There are very few physical techniques in Koryu jujutsu that are not covered in Judo or Aikido.
This I think is true only if looking at the outwardly shape of the techniques?

For example: My aikido teacher also teaches Tenshin shoden katori shinto ryu. And their use of yin/yang makes outwardly similar looking techniques very special/different. It looks the like. But when explained it falls apart.

Well I think it's not the shape, but the "little details" wich are important. And the use of aiki in aikido (as I know it) also is such a "detail" which makes aikido itself "special". So I don't think aikido gives an overview but just a very special view.

DH
06-21-2011, 08:49 AM
What is it that you are arguing Dan?
I'm not arguing. You presented an argument. I responded to your argument:
Quote:
Chris Hein wrote:
Aikido and Judo are both Gendai Budo-modern Japanese martial arts. Between the two, you'll get a pretty comprehensive overview of many Koryu (Japanese old schools) Jujutsu/Aikijujutsu technical syllabus. This is simply not correct
I have never met anyone actually ...in...koryu (not just iai) who would ever make that statement.
Aikido™ has nothing in it to give a student a comprehensive overview of Koryu: the movement, maai, weapons handling, intent, angles, and approach are much different.
Nor is it going to give you a comprehensive overview of aikijujutsu.
And Aikido™ doesn't function like koryu jujutsu.

Dan

I don't know why I need to repeat it. And hey, I am not saying good, bad, or indifferent. We have been over this before with your theories on weapon work you developed in your garage. You were unmoved by the opinions expressed by several koryu people then, why would I want a repeat.
Your new expanded edit isn't relevant either.
I'm simply saying the between the two, they generally cover most of the physical techniques that you will see in Koryu Jujutsu.
No they don't.
To be clear what makes you think you have seen a single koryu's technique, much less a broad enough view to comment on a collected work? For the most part what you see in embu footage and you tube is not what is really going on in the first place. Which make an opinion on "all koryu" sort of...moot. Menkyo's qualify their opinion's when discussing other koryu. Wy, because when they don't they get bit-with fact, not anger or politics.
There was an interesting read on E-budo (back when it was active and worth reading) when a Menkyo in one ryu apologized for writing about the theory of another koryu, then meeting that arts headmaster. He went to great lengths to explain his own hubris in thinking a) he was exposed to the real art from viewing anything b) that his ideas had been so off base that even he was shocked.

To interject some humor. I have discussed and/or heard Koryu teachers on the floor, going out of their way to point out just how what we were doing has no relation to Judo or aikido. And how THAT type of movement had leaked its way into various koryu and had to be eradicated, that it is antithetical to everything in their koryu. After, these experiences, somehow, it just doesn't make me interested in debating that point with you, Chris.

Dan

lbb
06-21-2011, 09:25 AM
Aaaaaand another derail, right on schedule...

akiy
06-21-2011, 10:05 AM
Yes -- let's please try to keep on topic, folks. Please start a new thread when your discussion veers from the original topic.

Thank you,

-- Jun

DH
06-21-2011, 11:20 AM
The television show "Mythbusters" investigated and tested the story of catching a live blade between the palms. They used robotic arms and ballistic gel hands for their experiments and with all sort of trick electronic devices and switches, they were unable to do it. They visited a San Francisco area Ninjutsu instructor who demonstrated the catch with one of his students. As I watched the human demonstration it appeared to me (cynic that I am) that the student wasn't delivering a killing blow that would split the body, but rather making a very controlled shomenuchi cut that stopped at the point where the palms would meet the blade. As I recall, they labeled the myth as "plausible", but very unlikely to actually happen. My view is that it was a terrific parlor trick that requires two people to have precise timing and a lot of time on their hands, along with an iaito.
Like all of these things a great deal depends on who the puncher who's wrist is going to supposedly be grabbed, or who the guy is who wielding the sword. There is a very wide gap of capability in most dojo I have been in, much more out in the public.

Tricks
There is another trick with the swordsman cutting an arrow out of the air:
*The arrow is aimed above his head so he can follow the trajectory, and not aimed... at him, at no time was he in danger.
*There are just as many ki trick demo's (taking ki out of and back into people) based on tricks, and others that are pure mind game nonsense.
*Cutting a watermelon off the belly-dulll sword, needles placed in the last 3/4" so the blade hits the needles, dull sword makes more explosive cut.

All that said, how many people really know how to punch, and fewer still those who (beyond their own imagination) really know how to use weapons. It's no small wonder that you can convince budo people that you can grab a wrist out of the air and stop a sword between your hands...good grief!

Wrist grabbing and a more positive spin. Why do it at all?
You can use it as a graduated drill to enter and move, working on foot work, distance, timing, placement, lack of fear for a newbie, etc. It doesn't have to be empty, or even fake. It helps if everyone involved is self aware and the more experienced teach the limits of such things to newbies. There are ways to drill to connect and control and from that point have some more realistic potentials.

The potentials can be anywhere from stupid, to well reasoned, depending on the teacher. Sadly alot of B.S. get passed on down, just as much, if not more than the real deal. A teacher, is not a promise of excellence or your success.
Dan

ChrisHein
06-21-2011, 11:21 AM
To the OP:
As Don pointed out Judo is a young mans sport. It is hard on the body, and constant randori will take it's toll rather quickly.

When talking about being martially effective you must first think about your martial context. If you are planning on fighting in a ring your context is very different than it would be if you are going to be fighting for you life if a criminal breaks into your house.

People tend to think of boxing, wrestling and Judo type throwing first when they think of martial ability. These areas are all fine and well but pretty limited, and probably not the most important areas of study when thinking about the contexts you will likely find yourself in, in a fight.

Some people have already touched on this in the thread. The big areas of self defense lay outside of boxing, wresting and throwing skills. Think in terms of the big self defense picture

Surprise- How aware and alert are you in your day to day life? Do you pay attention when walking down the street, are you aware of what is normal or abnormal goings on around your house? Do you know the bad parts of town,and how to stay away from them?

Weapons- Do you know how to use a weapon? Do you own a weapon? Could you quickly find a weapon to use and have the ability to use it in a random situation (using things like fire extinguishers, brooms, kitchen knifes, things you can throw etc)?

Numbers- Do you have the basic idea of how to deal with multiple people trying to attack you? Do you know where you should position yourself and how to find escape?

Environment- Could you fight in the dark? Do you know the layout of your house really well? Could you get to the police station, hospital, or other safe places quickly?

These areas are the major areas of martial arts. Things like boxing, wrestling and throwing take a major back seat to these when it comes to real self defense. Most Aikido schools will at least touch on these areas (environment much less), where as a Judo school will teach you mostly about Throwing and Grappling technique as it is used in the controlled environment of sport.

Siteofthor
06-21-2011, 03:06 PM
Thank you for all of the info guys! Appreciate it all! Chris was going to ask you, well your post made alot of sense and well your previous posts have mentioned the idea of resistance being needed in modern day aikido to be effective. The Aikido Dojo I train at even though it is supposed to be Tomiki says that they dont' use any resistance at all and the mere repitition over time should be enough to spark your sub conscious to react when its needed. I'm wonder what you think about that and how I can go about speaking with my Instructor to try to implement a little bit of resistance into the training. Jon

ChrisHein
06-21-2011, 06:45 PM
Thank you for all of the info guys! Appreciate it all! Chris was going to ask you, well your post made alot of sense and well your previous posts have mentioned the idea of resistance being needed in modern day aikido to be effective. The Aikido Dojo I train at even though it is supposed to be Tomiki says that they dont' use any resistance at all and the mere repitition over time should be enough to spark your sub conscious to react when its needed. I'm wonder what you think about that and how I can go about speaking with my Instructor to try to implement a little bit of resistance into the training. Jon

If you've never had a conversation in French, but you've read books about French, and understand some words and the structure of the language, taken a few classes, how well do you think you'll do the first time you encounter a native French speaker who is trying to have a conversation with you?

Repetition alone won't do it. You've got to practice "speaking the language" of Aikido over and over, in unexpected non-cooperative ways. No matter how much you study a subject, the actual doing is always different.

Your teachers Dojo is his, it's not up to you to try and change that. His opinions, I'm sure, come from years of experience, and he has a vision for the kind of training he wants to do.

If you want to add resistance, get some Dojo mates, friends, like minded people who want to do the same thing, and add resistance to your training, on your own, outside of class.

Remember there is no one correct way, experiment and find your way. I wish you the best of luck on your journey! If you want any ideas about drills/ sparring practices you could try, shoot me an email, I've got lots!

L. Camejo
06-21-2011, 09:28 PM
The Aikido Dojo I train at even though it is supposed to be Tomiki says that they dont' use any resistance at all and the mere repitition over time should be enough to spark your sub conscious to react when its needed. I'm wonder what you think about that and how I can go about speaking with my Instructor to try to implement a little bit of resistance into the training. JonWow its weird to hear of a Tomiki dojo that does not use resistance randori as a training method. That is actually one of the hallmarks of Tomiki's method of Aikido practice.

Jon, I am not sure who your Sensei may be, but a little bit of study on the history of Tomiki Sensei's Aikido will reveal the logic of the randori method and why resistance is important to understand why things work when they work. Some articles on that can be found here - http://tomiki.org/tomikiaikido.html and here - http://homepage2.nifty.com/shodokan/en/kyogi1.html.

This should be enough to consider your request, if in fact he calls what he does Tomiki Aikido.

Just a thought.

Best
LC

DonMagee
06-22-2011, 08:08 AM
To the OP:
As Don pointed out Judo is a young mans sport. It is hard on the body, and constant randori will take it's toll rather quickly.

When talking about being martially effective you must first think about your martial context. If you are planning on fighting in a ring your context is very different than it would be if you are going to be fighting for you life if a criminal breaks into your house.

People tend to think of boxing, wrestling and Judo type throwing first when they think of martial ability. These areas are all fine and well but pretty limited, and probably not the most important areas of study when thinking about the contexts you will likely find yourself in, in a fight.

Some people have already touched on this in the thread. The big areas of self defense lay outside of boxing, wresting and throwing skills. Think in terms of the big self defense picture

Surprise- How aware and alert are you in your day to day life? Do you pay attention when walking down the street, are you aware of what is normal or abnormal goings on around your house? Do you know the bad parts of town,and how to stay away from them?

Weapons- Do you know how to use a weapon? Do you own a weapon? Could you quickly find a weapon to use and have the ability to use it in a random situation (using things like fire extinguishers, brooms, kitchen knifes, things you can throw etc)?

Numbers- Do you have the basic idea of how to deal with multiple people trying to attack you? Do you know where you should position yourself and how to find escape?

Environment- Could you fight in the dark? Do you know the layout of your house really well? Could you get to the police station, hospital, or other safe places quickly?

These areas are the major areas of martial arts. Things like boxing, wrestling and throwing take a major back seat to these when it comes to real self defense. Most Aikido schools will at least touch on these areas (environment much less), where as a Judo school will teach you mostly about Throwing and Grappling technique as it is used in the controlled environment of sport.

While I agree with the majority of your post. I really don't think any martial art adequately prepares you for a 'real life' encounter. I've trained in or visited more martial arts and martial art schools then I can even count. Everyone has obvious and easy to identify holes in their training and philosophy. It's just a matter of what angle you look at it.

My advice? Don't train for self defense. Train to be effective at what you are doing. I train in BJJ and Judo to be good at grappling (throwing people down and choking them). I train in boxing to be good at not being punched while punching people. I train in firearms to be a good marksman.

All of these are skills that could lend themselves to a self defense situation. However, the mistake that many (and myself) have made in the past and currently make is to train for self defense. Self defense is a short term goal that can not be reached without long term experience. It's a moving goal with the goalposts set anywhere anyone can imagine. It is a target that preys on your fears and typically not in reality. Name a martial art and someone will just as quickly be able to name a valid reason why that martial art fails to provide proper training for self defense.

So instead, do what you get enjoyment from, be honest in what skills you are developing, and learn to accept and grow from experience.

Siteofthor
06-22-2011, 10:20 AM
Thanks for all of the useful info guys! I also have an update. I have decided to go with Aikido. I had a yellow belt in Judo but after going more to aikido and talking to everyone it just seems like the right decision for me. When I go to do Aikido, I enjoy everyones company, I don't feel everyone has to be competitive with me, I don't look at the clock, and I relax and I actually enjoy it.

I also wanted to say that apparently I found out that we indeed do do a little bit of resistance and randori once we've got all the basics down.

I have a question though, I'm actually training in Texas now but soon will be back in Albuquerque and may need to find a new place to train. There are so many different dojos, it's hard to decide. I wanted to know if other forms of Aikido also do "chaining"? I really like this idea and the concept behind it.

Thanks again all of you!

Jon

ChrisHein
06-22-2011, 11:29 AM
I don't look at the clock, and I relax and I actually enjoy it.

This is probably the most important thing!

matty_mojo911
06-23-2011, 08:44 PM
Jon
Aikido is a great art, I don't even do it anymore, I do BJJ, but I still think about aikido all the time.
Sure Aikido ain't that practical, but I tell you this...

How many hours do you train a week? 3, 4, 5, 6 whatever. How many time have you been attacked? (insert answer). How many times are you likely to be attacked? Well that depends on what you do, places you visit, time of day/night etc.

As the years pass, and I don't know how old you are, but due to maturity we put ourselves less and less in the way of danger, from robbers etc...

The point being as time goes by you will have trained for hundreds, if not thousands of hours, and if we train with self defence at the fore of our mind, you are doing all this training for what, as the years pass, is a decreasing chance of being able to use it.

To that end we must all train without the thought of Self Defense or else we will be bitterly disappointed in 20 years when we've never been able to apply it.