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graham christian
06-03-2011, 09:00 AM
I am posting a video here for a couple of reasons.

1. In reverence and respect for the teachings of Tohei Sensei.

2. In order to show there is a way of Aikido, a 'soft' way, a Ki way that is effective and beneficial.

It's not so much a video to prove this or that but more for educational purposes, for admiration, for interest.

As I hadn't seen this one before I am assuming maybe many of you havn't either. Although in japanese I think the jist comes across well in this one.

http://youtu.be/MuZdxhA_h4Y

Enjoy. G.

chillzATL
06-03-2011, 09:49 AM
Thanks Graham, not a lot of vids of him out there after the split.

jester
06-03-2011, 10:34 AM
At about 14 minutes in those 2 guys look like they are just jumping into a break fall for no reason. It looks very choreographed. I wonder what they are trying to show? I wish I spoke Japanese!

There are also some really good Black and White Tohei videos on Youtube.

Thanks for sharing.

-

graham christian
06-03-2011, 11:12 AM
At about 14 minutes in those 2 guys look like they are just jumping into a break fall for no reason. It looks very choreographed. I wonder what they are trying to show? I wish I spoke Japanese!

There are also some really good Black and White Tohei videos on Youtube.

Thanks for sharing.

-

Hi Tim. Yes I have seen most of those old videos. All good.

To do with the break falls I would say two things really from my perspective.

1. Yes of course it's all choreographed to a greater or lesser degree as it is a presentation. With that the attacker would probably want to carry on into the break-fall even if the technique wasn't perfect.

2. That unless you have experience of that kind of Aikido by someone as competent as Tohei Sensei then it's hard to understand what is actually being experienced and why the resultant effect.

Regards.G.

aikilouis
06-03-2011, 12:50 PM
I am wondering if the video has been pirated.

DH
06-03-2011, 02:34 PM
2. That unless you have experience of that kind of Aikido by someone as competent as Tohei Sensei then it's hard to understand what is actually being experienced and why the resultant effect.

Regards.G.
Ki...IS.... power, Graham.
Soft power...IS...invasive and destructive as well.
this notion of soft meaning, externally leading or evading is WAZA not aiki.
Tohei good as he was...was not Ueshiba.
cheers
Dan

graham christian
06-03-2011, 03:02 PM
Ki...IS.... power, Graham.
Soft power...IS...invasive and destructive as well.
this notion of soft meaning, externally leading or evading is WAZA not aiki.
Tohei good as he was...was not Ueshiba.
cheers
Dan

You translate it as such Dan. Good for you.

Regards.G.

sakumeikan
06-04-2011, 02:41 AM
Ki...IS.... power, Graham.
Soft power...IS...invasive and destructive as well.
this notion of soft meaning, externally leading or evading is WAZA not aiki.
Tohei good as he was...was not Ueshiba.
cheers
Dan
Dear Dan
Is an apple better than an orange?Both are good. Personally I find drawing comparisons between anyone is not so good.Tohei Sensei [no doubt about it ] was a great Aikidoka.
In my view there is no need to compare him with anyone.
Cheers, Joe.

graham christian
06-04-2011, 06:17 AM
Ki...IS.... power, Graham.
Soft power...IS...invasive and destructive as well.
this notion of soft meaning, externally leading or evading is WAZA not aiki.
Tohei good as he was...was not Ueshiba.
cheers
Dan

Just a note to clarify.

Soft power of which I speak is not destructive.

Soft meaning externally leading or evading is WAZA? Not in my Aikido.

Waza is merely technique and is a result of Aiki motion in my Aikido.

As I said, if you experience that kind of Aikido it is different to what you expect.

Once again more differences come to light. Like the stars in the universe, all have their particular shine.

Regards.G.

stan baker
06-04-2011, 10:59 AM
I think making comparisons can be useful it can help clarify certain points. We can say they were both good that is obvious. What are the differences and how can we get insight into seeing the differences that can be very important.Like I always say we have to look deeper myself included.

stan

graham christian
06-04-2011, 11:56 AM
I think making comparisons can be useful it can help clarify certain points. We can say they were both good that is obvious. What are the differences and how can we get insight into seeing the differences that can be very important.Like I always say we have to look deeper myself included.

stan

Indeed. That one may be better in certain circumstances and less effective in others is obvious no matter which martial art or skill you pick. Thus those kinds of points I'm not very interested in.

That doesn't mean I'm not interested in comparisons for seeing the things which are the same, the things which are similar and the differences, all three lead to better overall understanding I would say.

I never say for example my Aikido is anything to do with what others call internal power and nor do I call it physical or hard. There are sameness, similarities and differences.

Regards.G.

DH
06-05-2011, 06:01 AM
Just a note to clarify.

Soft power of which I speak is not destructive.

Soft meaning externally leading or evading is WAZA? Not in my Aikido.

Waza is merely technique and is a result of Aiki motion in my Aikido.

As I said, if you experience that kind of Aikido it is different to what you expect.

Once again more differences come to light. Like the stars in the universe, all have their particular shine.

Regards.G.
Graham
Last night i sat down with a group of budoka and watched a selection of videos of your practice. I'm sure your practice is beneficial to you in some way, but whatever you choose to call your movement- none of the budoka watching could relate with it as a form of budo. I now see why we struggled to communicate. We have no common frame of reference.
Dan

graham christian
06-05-2011, 07:20 AM
Graham
Last night i sat down with a group of budoka and watched a selection of videos of your practice. I'm sure your practice is beneficial to you in some way, but whatever you choose to call your movement- none of the budoka watching could relate with it as a form of budo. I now see why we struggled to communicate. We have no common frame of reference.
Dan

Hi Dan.
Agreed. I had the same kind of problems with my communication on entering this forum. I assumed we all had the same frame of reference or at least similar.

This at first led me to 'attack' those attacking my views. Then to review where I was going wrong. Then to realize how many different lines of approach and different frames of references there were.

Thus I realized my mistake and learned. With understanding I then returned to center so to speak. Some may still thinK I am whatever but to them I say only this:

In my way of Aikido I am as a Giant Oak Tree however in the great field of Aikido I am merely a leaf.

Regards.G.

gregstec
06-05-2011, 07:01 PM
In my way of Aikido I am as a Giant Oak Tree however in the great field of Aikido I am merely a leaf.

Regards.G.

Hi Graham,

One of the truism in life is that there will always be those that just don't see things the exact way that you do - the important thing is to respect the views of others and to share what there is in common and to move on from what is not.

Personally, I find your posts a little wacky and my budo is not your budo - but I do love your style in presenting it and wish you the best of luck in carrying on with your journey, wherever that may take you :)

For those that may take pleasure in your ridicule, all I have to say to them is grow up and take a close look at your own house before condemning someone else's - people need to learn to live and let live.

Greg

gregstec
06-06-2011, 06:23 AM
For those that may take pleasure in your ridicule, all I have to say to them is grow up and take a close look at your own house before condemning someone else's - people need to learn to live and let live.

Greg

Just for clarification - although I commented on Graham's reply to Dan's post, my comment above should in no way be construed that I am implying Dan is ridiculing Graham; Dan is too much of a gentleman for that and it is not his style. Dan simply stated that Graham and he are not talking the same language when it comes to aiki and that there is no connection between their communications - that is not ridicule.

For the record, I do speak Dan's language when it comes to aiki, but I also respect Graham's right to express himself in any manner he chooses as long as it is not harmful to others.

Greg

graham christian
06-06-2011, 07:28 AM
Hi Graham,

One of the truism in life is that there will always be those that just don't see things the exact way that you do - the important thing is to respect the views of others and to share what there is in common and to move on from what is not.

Personally, I find your posts a little wacky and my budo is not your budo - but I do love your style in presenting it and wish you the best of luck in carrying on with your journey, wherever that may take you :)

For those that may take pleasure in your ridicule, all I have to say to them is grow up and take a close look at your own house before condemning someone else's - people need to learn to live and let live.

Greg

Hi Greg.
Good to hear your view. When all said and done it's just communication after all.

A bit like any activity, until we get good at it there will be misunderstandings.

Regards.G.

David Yap
06-06-2011, 01:55 PM
Borrowing Graham's thread on Strength vs Ki; from another aikido's great - Gozo Shioda sensei:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DiNQgAbH0Y&NR=1

Cheers

David Y

jester
06-06-2011, 02:38 PM
when it comes to aiki and that there is no connection between their communications

You need connection for discourse and for Aikido! :D

-

gregstec
06-06-2011, 02:47 PM
Borrowing Graham's thread on Strength vs Ki; from another aikido's great - Gozo Shioda sensei:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DiNQgAbH0Y&NR=1

Cheers

David Y

Nice clip supporting the view that Shioda trained with Horikawa :)

Greg

gregstec
06-06-2011, 02:49 PM
You need connection for discourse and for Aikido! :D

-

Smart A__ - don't you have to go throw a knife at something :)

DH
06-06-2011, 03:45 PM
Nice clip supporting the view that Shioda trained with Horikawa :)

Greg
Everything he is doing is out of Kodo's playbook.

But, on to more meaningful things...
Think of Saturday
Think of whole body connection and what we did
Think of how and "where" it affected those hand connections
Think of the body line connection
Think of "If one thing moves, everything moves."
and you have no mystery, and no need to look up to these people for things you can learn to do yourselves.

If not then maybe I should get my outfit back on and get more compliant ukes who would bow to me!!!
Instead I'm stuck with you meat heads who only want to kick my ass!!
Uhm...cheers:D
Dan
P.S. Just imagine hearing of a group of people saying things like this are not taught in Daito ryu or Japanese arts and they only are taught from "secret Asian teachers from one afternoon"...Bwahaha! Who says 'stand up" is reserved for comedy clubs!!

gregstec
06-06-2011, 04:00 PM
Everything he is doing is out of Kodo's playbook.

But, on to more meaningful things...
Think of Saturday
Think of whole body connection and what we did
Think of how and "where" it affected those hand connections
Think of the body line connection
Think of "If one thing moves, everything moves."
and you have no mystery, and no need to look up to these people for things you can learn to do yourselves.

If not then maybe I should get my outfit back on and get more compliant ukes who would bow to me!!!
Instead I'm stuck with you meat heads who only want to kick my ass!!
Uhm...cheers:D
Dan
P.S. of course we have sewing circles and gossips saying things like this are not taught in Daito ryu or Japanese arts and they only taught from "secret Asian teachers from one afternoon"...Bwahaha! Who says 'stand up" is reserved for comedy clubs!!

My mission in retirement is to grow up and kick your ass :)

That Clip showed pretty basic Daito stuff, or at least the basic stuff Howard is teaching :)

Greg

Marc Abrams
06-06-2011, 05:18 PM
Everything he is doing is out of Kodo's playbook.

But, on to more meaningful things...
Think of Saturday
Think of whole body connection and what we did
Think of how and "where" it affected those hand connections
Think of the body line connection
Think of "If one thing moves, everything moves."
and you have no mystery, and no need to look up to these people for things you can learn to do yourselves.

If not then maybe I should get my outfit back on and get more compliant ukes who would bow to me!!!
Instead I'm stuck with you meat heads who only want to kick my ass!!
Uhm...cheers:D
Dan
P.S. Just imagine hearing of a group of people saying things like this are not taught in Daito ryu or Japanese arts and they only are taught from "secret Asian teachers from one afternoon"...Bwahaha! Who says 'stand up" is reserved for comedy clubs!!

Dan:

NOBODY wants to kick your ass! Particularly after one of the rabbits from your lair escaped........ :eek:

Marc

DH
06-06-2011, 06:04 PM
Dan:
NOBODY wants to kick your ass! Particularly after one of the rabbits from your lair escaped........ :eek:
Marc
Yes...but I won't show you how to do it.
I won't tell you how to do it.
Instead, I will open a discussion
And ask...you....how to do it.
"You are the experts after all."
And then magically I will make you think you are learning something meaningful, from a discussion about nothing. :D
me

jester
06-06-2011, 06:49 PM
Borrowing Graham's thread on Strength vs Ki; from another aikido's great - Gozo Shioda sensei:

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DiNQgAbH0Y&NR=1[/url}

All of those guys are gripping from a very very weak position. It proves that Kuzushi before applying a technique is very important!

I like the way he slides away from his uke right at the start.

-

gregstec
06-06-2011, 07:00 PM
Yes...but I won't show you how to do it.
I won't tell you how to do it.
Instead, I will open a discussion
And ask...you....how to do it.
"You are the experts after all."
And then magically I will make you think you are learning something meaningful, from a discussion about nothing. :D
me

You getting too esoteric for me - you drinking Sake again :D

Greg

Marc Abrams
06-06-2011, 08:25 PM
Yes...but I won't show you how to do it.
I won't tell you how to do it.
Instead, I will open a discussion
And ask...you....how to do it.
"You are the experts after all."
And then magically I will make you think you are learning something meaningful, from a discussion about nothing. :D
me

I would try to engage in a discussion about that, but I remember hearing about a family lore about a relative in England who rode with King Arthur. They talked about a rabbit with big gnarly teeth and claws. A killer rabbit I am told......;)

Me 2

DH
06-06-2011, 10:28 PM
All of those guys are gripping from a very very weak position. It proves that Kuzushi before applying a technique is very important!

I like the way he slides away from his uke right at the start.

-
The weak gripping helps what he is doing with his arms, but it would work anyway. Even if the grips were strong, no matter. What actually is going on is blatantly obvious if a) your body is trained b) you understand aiki. The rest is a piece of cake.
Cheers
Dan

DH
06-06-2011, 10:54 PM
Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
Yes...but I won't show you how to do it.
I won't tell you how to do it.
Instead, I will open a discussion
And ask...you....how to do it.
"You are the experts after all."
And then magically, I will make you think you are learning something meaningful, from (edit) discussions that go no where.
me

You're getting too esoteric for me - you drinking Sake again :D

Greg
Seriously...from you of all people?
I got surprising emails from a group of folk who cracked up, as they experience it regularly.
Think dude, think. ;)
me

gregstec
06-07-2011, 06:51 AM
Seriously...from you of all people?
I got surprising emails from a group of folk who cracked up, as they experience it regularly.
Think dude, think. ;)
me

GOT IT :D

it was me drinking the Sake last night - no, make that cheap Gin; numbs the brain :eek:

Greg

jester
06-07-2011, 09:14 AM
The weak gripping helps what he is doing with his arms, but it would work anyway. Even if the grips were strong, no matter. What actually is going on is blatantly obvious if a) your body is trained b) you understand aiki. The rest is a piece of cake.
Cheers
Dan

Have to disagree to some extent. If uke was allowed to change his grip in accordance to Tori's movement (this would be a stronger position for Uke because it evolves like in real life), then Uke wouldn't be able to do that technique at all. A strong position will constantly evolve. That's the basics of Aikido.

All these type of demos fall under the false pretense that Uke is going to be a static loaf. They do teach a basic principal but like you said it's blatantly obvious and totally one sided.

-

Marc Abrams
06-07-2011, 09:37 AM
Have to disagree to some extent. If uke was allowed to change his grip in accordance to Tori's movement (this would be a stronger position for Uke because it evolves like in real life), then Uke wouldn't be able to do that technique at all. A strong position will constantly evolve. That's the basics of Aikido.

All these type of demos fall under the false pretense that Uke is going to be a static loaf. They do teach a basic principal but like you said it's blatantly obvious and totally one sided.

-

Tim:

I would respectfully disagree with your position. The level that Dan is talking about is one in which your time frame is slower than the person with aiki/internal skills. Your body simply cannot process the information overload quick enough to be able to offer any kind of effective response. At that level, by the time you have made contact, you are already behind the eight ball, which is behind the wrecking ball that is about to hit you while you just notice the eight ball. You have to experience this first hand in order to truly grasp what I am talking about. I know personally! I have always been congenitally stupid enough to insist that I look at the eight ball while the wrecking ball crushes me far more frequently than I should have, before I had to acknowledge the inadequacy in my training and abilities so that I could be open to learn what Dan is talking about. I genuinely hope that one day, my congenital stupidity will wear off enough to actually learn this stuff well enough to be able to do it in a real-time manner.

Regards,

marc abrams

DH
06-07-2011, 10:43 AM
Have to disagree to some extent. If uke was allowed to change his grip in accordance to Tori's movement (this would be a stronger position for Uke because it evolves like in real life), then Uke wouldn't be able to do that technique at all. A strong position will constantly evolve. That's the basics of Aikido.

All these type of demos fall under the false pretense that Uke is going to be a static loaf. They do teach a basic principal but like you said it's blatantly obvious and totally one sided.

-
Demos are demos
But since you decided to talk about real time applicability.....I am not changing one single comment or opinion. What I do in solo training, I do in kata, I do in drills, I do in sparring, I do in fighting. The only reason it looks different is due to speed, and the type of attacks someone brings. IP/aiki is not only fluid, it is hyper fluid and produces power and aiki non-stop in motion, and what SHioda is demonstrating can fit the bill if you know what you're doing.
To be fair, I have yet to see, feel, or meet an Aikido or Daito ryu person of any rank who both understands and can do, what I just said to you to the level I am talking about. I'm not saying they don't exist, I just have never seen it.
Cheers
Dan

jester
06-07-2011, 10:43 AM
Tim:

The level that Dan is talking about is one in which your time frame is slower than the person with aiki/internal skills. Your body simply cannot process the information overload quick enough to be able to offer any kind of effective response.

Maybe, but unless we are all in the room together and show what each other knows, we will never fully agree or know what the other is describing. Proof is in the pudding as they say!

I don't see myself ever grabbing anyone like that so that point is moot. The bottom line is that an automatic reflex is the fastest thing you can do. Fortunately for me our randori system teaches that very effectively. You should always think that nothing ever works. That way you adapt to the situation.

I also don't know exactly what Dan is teaching and have never seen any videos or demos from him but the internal arts are nothing new. I use it in my daily life.

For example, I used to compete throwing knives and can easily throw a 1 pound knife over 90 feet. It's all physics and I use my entire body like a whip. I see others that can't throw more than 40 feet max. They have no connection with their body, mind, breathing etc. and use mostly arm strength and power.

-

graham christian
06-07-2011, 05:23 PM
Maybe, but unless we are all in the room together and show what each other knows, we will never fully agree or know what the other is describing. Proof is in the pudding as they say!

I don't see myself ever grabbing anyone like that so that point is moot. The bottom line is that an automatic reflex is the fastest thing you can do. Fortunately for me our randori system teaches that very effectively. You should always think that nothing ever works. That way you adapt to the situation.

I also don't know exactly what Dan is teaching and have never seen any videos or demos from him but the internal arts are nothing new. I use it in my daily life.

For example, I used to compete throwing knives and can easily throw a 1 pound knife over 90 feet. It's all physics and I use my entire body like a whip. I see others that can't throw more than 40 feet max. They have no connection with their body, mind, breathing etc. and use mostly arm strength and power.

-

Sounds good to me.

G.

graham christian
06-07-2011, 05:30 PM
Borrowing Graham's thread on Strength vs Ki; from another aikido's great - Gozo Shioda sensei:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DiNQgAbH0Y&NR=1

Cheers

David Y

Hi David. Yes Godo Shioda was an Aikido great. However there is not much resemblance to the art practiced by Koichi Tohei.

I'm not saying you see it as the same but thought I'd mention it as others seem to understand what he was doing and would be mistaken if they think that is Ki Aikido as done by Tohei.

Regards.G.

phitruong
06-07-2011, 09:19 PM
Hi David. Yes Godo Shioda was an Aikido great. However there is not much resemblance to the art practiced by Koichi Tohei.

I'm not saying you see it as the same but thought I'd mention it as others seem to understand what he was doing and would be mistaken if they think that is Ki Aikido as done by Tohei.

Regards.G.

scratching my head (ya, head lice). is Shioda's Ki different from Tohei's Ki? seemed like that is what you implied. maybe i read that wrong, perhap? or are you saying that the outward forms are different?

gregstec
06-08-2011, 08:40 AM
To be fair, I have yet to see, feel, or meet an Aikido or Daito ryu person of any rank who both understands and can do, what I just said to you to the level I am talking about. I'm not saying they don't exist, I just have never seen it.
Cheers
Dan

I was at an Okamoto sensei seminar where I saw him do the same drill in Shioda's video. This was not a demo during the seminar but an impromptu thing during lunch. Four of us were sitting on a bench and a fifth person was standing in front of Okamoto. He had the two people on either side of him ( I was sitting next to one of those guys) grab his arms like in the video and then had the guy standing grab his gi. The only difference from the video was that he locked up each as they touched him and he did not wait until all three grabbed him, also his movement was much smaller than Shioda's.

Now I can not attest to the level of Okamoto's skill from my limited exposure to him (I am sure it is not low), but maybe those three fellows that grabbed him can. The two guys that grabbed his arms you know very well, their initials are HP and JD - maybe you can ask them the next time you see them :)

Greg

graham christian
06-08-2011, 10:48 AM
scratching my head (ya, head lice). is Shioda's Ki different from Tohei's Ki? seemed like that is what you implied. maybe i read that wrong, perhap? or are you saying that the outward forms are different?

Hi Phi.
Yes to both in short. To me it is the difference that makes all the difference and so what looks similar is in fact equated as the same thing.

Hence as I started Aikido based on Toheis principles from I might add a very stern teacher (zen style) I came across many people who could do things from other arts based on 'Ki' or 'chi' and had to go back training wondering what the difference was and indeed why it could be so different if it's meant to be Ki for example.

Thus I consider now I am quite good at recognising the differences.

That's all really.

Regards.G.

DH
06-08-2011, 11:10 AM
Thus I consider now I am quite good at recognising the differences.
That's all really.
Regards.G.
Differences in Ki? Really?
What are they?
Dan

graham christian
06-08-2011, 11:38 AM
Differences in Ki? Really?
What are they?
Dan

Now that would mean I have to write a book Dan. Before we get into any play on words however let me say you could look at it as different aspects of Ki.

However, I prefer different types of Ki.

Remember also we have different frames of reference as you wisely spotted.

Now, purely to show one difference which many people doing Aikido are unaware of and some may even disbelieve is Kiatsu. Healing Ki or you could say using Ki to induce the Ki of another to heal.

It's very soft and yet powerful, done with the tips of the fingers generally without pressure and so cannot be equated with shiatsu or acupressure for example or even what I see called by many to be Reiki.

Add to that your approach is from a physical combative approach and my approach is from a purely spiritual non.competitive way.

Thus from a spiritual point of view there are many, many differences.

Regards.G.

gregstec
06-08-2011, 11:52 AM
Now that would mean I have to write a book Dan. Before we get into any play on words however let me say you could look at it as different aspects of Ki.

However, I prefer different types of Ki.

Remember also we have different frames of reference as you wisely spotted.

Now, purely to show one difference which many people doing Aikido are unaware of and some may even disbelieve is Kiatsu. Healing Ki or you could say using Ki to induce the Ki of another to heal.

It's very soft and yet powerful, done with the tips of the fingers generally without pressure and so cannot be equated with shiatsu or acupressure for example or even what I see called by many to be Reiki.

Add to that your approach is from a physical combative approach and my approach is from a purely spiritual non.competitive way.

Thus from a spiritual point of view there are many, many differences.

Regards.G.

Ki is Ki - there are no different types of ki. However, there are many applications of ki where kiatsu is one application and ki in a martial technique is another.

I am familiar with kiatsu as taught by Koretoshi Maruyama and I am also familiar with the application of ki in Dan's exercises - same ki in both, just different uses.

Greg

graham christian
06-08-2011, 12:01 PM
Ki is Ki - there are no different types of ki. However, there are many applications of ki where kiatsu is one application and ki in a martial technique is another.

I am familiar with kiatsu as taught by Koretoshi Maruyama and I am also familiar with the application of ki in Dan's exercises - same ki in both, just different uses.

Greg

Greg. This isn't a competition. I am merely answering a question.

As I said I am not interested in plays on words either. Usages. Yes that's yet another aspect of Ki developement. But for me saying there is only one Ki is like saying there is only one type of wood, there is only one type of water, there is only one type of light.

From one angle it is true yet on further inspection there are many differences.

That's all. G.

gregstec
06-08-2011, 12:53 PM
Greg. This isn't a competition. I am merely answering a question.

As I said I am not interested in plays on words either. Usages. Yes that's yet another aspect of Ki developement. But for me saying there is only one Ki is like saying there is only one type of wood, there is only one type of water, there is only one type of light.

From one angle it is true yet on further inspection there are many differences.

That's all. G.

I don't have a clue where you got the idea that my post was intended to enter in a competition. I was simply stating my view on Ki.

You have stated that your Aikido follows Tohei's model. I too have studied Tohei's model under Koretoshi Maruyama when he was Tohei's first chief instructor of the Ki Society back in the middle 70s so I can relate to your perspectives somewhat. I am also a student of Dan's so I know where he is coming form on ki as well.

As a student of Tohei's model, you should know that ki is in all things and that it is what makes the universe animated. There is only one ki with many different uses dependent on how it is controlled internally and external by the body - yes, I said external to the body. Ki can be projected from the body and used to extend your awareness - not in a ki fireball type of way, but in a very subtle way. Until one realizes and learns how to do this, you will never get your skill to a higher level.

Greg

graham christian
06-08-2011, 01:09 PM
I don't have a clue where you got the idea that my post was intended to enter in a competition. I was simply stating my view on Ki.

You have stated that your Aikido follows Tohei's model. I too have studied Tohei's model under Koretoshi Maruyama when he was Tohei's first chief instructor of the Ki Society back in the middle 70s so I can relate to your perspectives somewhat. I am also a student of Dan's so I know where he is coming form on ki as well.

As a student of Tohei's model, you should know that ki is in all things and that it is what makes the universe animated. There is only one ki with many different uses dependent on how it is controlled internally and external by the body - yes, I said external to the body. Ki can be projected from the body and used to extend your awareness - not in a ki fireball type of way, but in a very subtle way. Until one realizes and learns how to do this, you will never get your skill to a higher level.

Greg

Greg. The competition aspect came from you mentioning Dan. O.K. maybe it was purely comparitive. My apologies.

Of course Ki is universal and external to the body as well as in it. There's no disagreement there. Ki in Toheis model as you put it is indeed extended out and taken into the body but I wouldn't say 'from the body' I would say from one point which is put at a location of center.( maybe my way of saying the same thing)

I too laugh at such concepts of balls of Ki. What's new?

G.

gregstec
06-08-2011, 01:29 PM
Greg. The competition aspect came from you mentioning Dan. O.K. maybe it was purely comparitive. My apologies.

Of course Ki is universal and external to the body as well as in it. There's no disagreement there. Ki in Toheis model as you put it is indeed extended out and taken into the body but I wouldn't say 'from the body' I would say from one point which is put at a location of center.( maybe my way of saying the same thing)

I too laugh at such concepts of balls of Ki. What's new?

G.

Yes, from center where all energies come through, around, into, and controlled by - where the mind also resides as well and NOT in the head :)

Greg

jester
06-08-2011, 01:31 PM
you should know that ki is in all things and that it is what makes the universe animated.

Greg

This sounds a lot like Star Wars! :D

Does everyone agree on what Ki is? I wouldn't think so. Translating the idea of Ki to a westerner seems difficult. I don't think anyone here has a monopoly on the word so it will mean different things to different people.

Maybe everyone can state what they think Ki is.

I don't think there is any Ki inherent in a rock but when i throw it I transfer my Ki (energy) to it and that's what makes it fly so far.

K=B+P

Ki = Biomechanics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biomechanics) plus Physics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physics).

-

graham christian
06-08-2011, 01:34 PM
Yes, from center where all energies come through, around, into, and controlled by - where the mind also resides as well and NOT in the head :)

Greg

Indeed. G.

gregstec
06-08-2011, 01:46 PM
This sounds a lot like Star Wars! :D

Does everyone agree on what Ki is? I wouldn't think so. Translating the idea of Ki to a westerner seems difficult. I don't think anyone here has a monopoly on the word so it will mean different things to different people.

Maybe everyone can state what they think Ki is.

I don't think there is any Ki inherent in a rock but when i throw it I transfer my Ki (energy) to it and that's what makes it fly so far.

K=B+P

Ki = Biomechanics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biomechanics) plus Physics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physics).

-

It is like Star Wars - qi/ki is where Lucas got the idea for the Force :)

The rest of your post will start the ki wars up all over again - best not to go there :)

Let's just say it is OK to agree to disagree on ki until either party learns more or becomes enlightened in some other way on the subject. :)

Best
Greg

jester
06-08-2011, 01:58 PM
The rest of your post will start the ki wars up all over again - best not to go there :)

Best
Greg

I wasn't aware of the Ki wars!! But understandable! These aren't the droids you are looking for.

It seems that in Aikido there seems to be the Scientific or the Spiritual crowd. This seems more like a religious debate sometimes!! :eek:

DH
06-08-2011, 02:39 PM
I wasn't aware of the Ki wars!! But understandable! These aren't the droids you are looking for.

It seems that in Aikido there seems to be the Scientific or the Spiritual crowd. This seems more like a religious debate sometimes!! :eek:
Nope, not in person, not once, not ever.
Ten thousand words of debate end in person.
Hence, many will avoid getting together at all costs!
Dan

gregstec
06-08-2011, 03:24 PM
I
It seems that in Aikido there seems to be the Scientific or the Spiritual crowd. This seems more like a religious debate sometimes!! :eek:

Amen to that brother! :D

PhillyKiAikido
06-09-2011, 09:10 PM
Amen to that brother! :D

Steckel sensei,

Since you studied both, do you mind to share with us your oppinions about the similarities and differences of those two styles?

Thanks!

Ting

gregstec
06-10-2011, 08:15 AM
Steckel sensei,

Since you studied both, do you mind to share with us your oppinions about the similarities and differences of those two styles?

Thanks!

Ting

Hi Ting,

First, I am not a Sensei - I am just another guy doing aiki that is willing to share what I know with others of a like mind :)

Second, I am not sure what you mean between styles. Tohei's model is a style of Aikido that teaches ki development and technical waza. What Dan is teaching is not a style nor is there any waza taught. All he is doing is teaching body conditioning for the development of internal strength via solo exercises and paired drills. The use of ki/qi/intent is important for the success of the exercises, but Dan does not really teach its development - he will give pointers on how to do it, but it is not his main focus.

However, this is where Tohei's ki development can compliment what Dan is doing. The application of Tohei's four principles of mind and body coordination is an excellent start for learning internal skills - internal strength just can not happen without a coordinated mind and body. However, it is just the crucial first step in the development of internal skills - Tohei never took his model to the next step, but Dan has.

I hope I answered your question to some degree.

Greg

Tony Wagstaffe
06-10-2011, 10:26 AM
Nice clip supporting the view that Shioda trained with Horikawa :)

Greg

Good use of stomach muscle isometrics there....;)

Tony Wagstaffe
06-10-2011, 10:28 AM
Hi Ting,

First, I am not a Sensei - I am just another guy doing aiki that is willing to share what I know with others of a like mind :)

Second, I am not sure what you mean between styles. Tohei's model is a style of Aikido that teaches ki development and technical waza. What Dan is teaching is not a style nor is there any waza taught. All he is doing is teaching body conditioning for the development of internal strength via solo exercises and paired drills. The use of ki/qi/intent is important for the success of the exercises, but Dan does not really teach its development - he will give pointers on how to do it, but it is not his main focus.

However, this is where Tohei's ki development can compliment what Dan is doing. The application of Tohei's four principles of mind and body coordination is an excellent start for learning internal skills - internal strength just can not happen without a coordinated mind and body. However, it is just the crucial first step in the development of internal skills - Tohei never took his model to the next step, but Dan has.

I hope I answered your question to some degree.

Greg

So Dan is better than Tohei is he? I 'd love to see that on video....:D

DH
06-10-2011, 10:39 AM
So Dan is better than Tohei is he? I 'd love to see that on video....:D
I'd rather have shown you in person!
But it's not singular, Tony. Forget me, there are many others dude! There is much more to the use of IP/aiki past what Tohei was doing. He was good but he got to a point and did not explore further. Don't make your world so small. I'm a small fish in big pond...I'm just glad to be in the water.
Dan

gregstec
06-10-2011, 11:35 AM
So Dan is better than Tohei is he? I 'd love to see that on video....:D

Never said that - just said he is doing something that Tohei was not - that is all.

Greg

Tony Wagstaffe
06-10-2011, 12:42 PM
Graham, "Ki" as you call it is a subtle use of strength used economically and trained body mechanics, nothing more..... When will people get that....? As for IS/IP the same thing in another guise or hype as Dan likes to harp on about and we all know that to, so no surprise there either, but at least I speak my mind.....
The word ki was never spoken of in all the years I practised aikido except by the laziest of people hoping to find it without effort, that is the problem today....

What you do is an exercise form which is great for you, but it would not work in a real scenario where someone is not going to comply with you, and you know it.....!!

If people would own up and call it an exercise system derived from self defence then I would prefer it, but to call it self defence is an absolute joke and if we were all completely honest.....? Well I am and so are a few others on here, but the rest are completely in cuckoo land and in with the fairies, but that's life, full of Walter Mitties and few able to cope with reality.... but who am I ? Just a nobody according to many on here, ha ha!! However I do like your audacity and the way people fawn over your posts, it's quite amusing, keep it up!!

Tony Wagstaffe
06-10-2011, 12:46 PM
I'd rather have shown you in person!
But it's not singular, Tony. Forget me, there are many others dude! There is much more to the use of IP/aiki past what Tohei was doing. He was good but he got to a point and did not explore further. Don't make your world so small. I'm a small fish in big pond...I'm just glad to be in the water.
Dan

Same here, I just like to swim before I drown..... my world is vast and I see more than you think ......
so put it up on video.....

Tony Wagstaffe
06-10-2011, 12:48 PM
Never said that - just said he is doing something that Tohei was not - that is all.

Greg

Better rephrase it then...?

graham christian
06-10-2011, 12:54 PM
Graham, "Ki" as you call it is a subtle use of strength used economically and trained body mechanics, nothing more..... When will people get that....? As for IS/IP the same thing in another guise or hype as Dan likes to harp on about and we all know that to, so no surprise there either, but at least I speak my mind.....
The word ki was never spoken of in all the years I practised aikido except by the laziest of people hoping to find it without effort, that is the problem today....

What you do is an exercise form which is great for you, but it would not work in a real scenario where someone is not going to comply with you, and you know it.....!!

If people would own up and call it an exercise system derived from self defence then I would prefer it, but to call it self defence is an absolute joke and if we were all completely honest.....? Well I am and so are a few others on here, but the rest are completely in cuckoo land and in with the fairies, but that's life, full of Walter Mitties and few able to cope with reality.... but who am I ? Just a nobody according to many on here, ha ha!! However I do like your audacity and the way people fawn over your posts, it's quite amusing, keep it up!!

Hi Tony San. (ha ha) Good to see you back from your trip.

Good to know you have never even heard Ki mentioned and yet know all about it.

However, what I really want to know is how was your holiday? Good I hope. Believe it or not I think many would love to hear how it was over there. (I believe you went to Japan otherwise I'm just making a fool of myself once again)

New thread?

Regards.G.

Tony Wagstaffe
06-10-2011, 01:34 PM
Hi Tony San. (ha ha) Good to see you back from your trip.

Good to know you have never even heard Ki mentioned and yet know all about it.

However, what I really want to know is how was your holiday? Good I hope. Believe it or not I think many would love to hear how it was over there. (I believe you went to Japan otherwise I'm just making a fool of myself once again)

New thread?

Regards.G.

Only from guys like yourself Graham , otherwise it was never mentioned.
Nippon was great and so are the people, generous to a fault and I couldn't have wished for a better holiday.....
Managed to get some training in, Shodokan of course.... Attended the 49th conveyor belt aikido demo where I saw a few well known faces and had my photo taken with a couple, the funny part is me being a heretic which is even more hilarious....!!
But it was worth it!! You wouldn't believe where I was sat!!!!!
Managed to do a few repairs where it was needed for friends. Had a great time with them......Experienced a few tremors while on the wonderful rear end cleaning loos as that is quite an experience if the water is too hot or cold, whoopeee!! Matelots would love it, shampoo and rinse.....!! And a dryer all in one, Did the whole Japanese bit, Sushi, miso soup (don't like it) but everything else was allright and very delicious, lots of beer and sake and bottomless legs which they thought I had!!. Sumo tournament, the hot springs, and so forth, not sure about the boys there though?
Did a sardine train one night on the Yamanote line, I was lucky that I was surrounded by women and had my hands up on the stirrups!! No flies on this kid!!
The country is beautiful, but many are still suffering while the politicians dither on the east coast, but much is being done by those in the know.... They are a tough lot in the country, but that is the contrast between city folk and country bumpkins like myself....
Tokyo cabbies think us British cabbies have very high standards, but so do they, a tad more expensive but clean and honest in the main....
I could go on but it would get boring. I have dubbed Shibuya "titty" land on account of one of it's shops in the area it's the one with all the escalators but I forget the name of the building. Roppongi reminded me of Singapore but more up market as to what it was when I was there in 1970.... Went to a drag show there where they really did have ki ti's in the cast of dancers who were very good..... One of my friends didn't realise they were men.... titter....
Its a good experience and I will go again, Nippon that is.....

graham christian
06-10-2011, 02:06 PM
Only from guys like yourself Graham , otherwise it was never mentioned.
Nippon was great and so are the people, generous to a fault and I couldn't have wished for a better holiday.....
Managed to get some training in, Shodokan of course.... Attended the 49th conveyor belt aikido demo where I saw a few well known faces and had my photo taken with a couple, the funny part is me being a heretic which is even more hilarious....!!
But it was worth it!! You wouldn't believe where I was sat!!!!!
Managed to do a few repairs where it was needed for friends. Had a great time with them......Experienced a few tremors while on the wonderful rear end cleaning loos as that is quite an experience if the water is too hot or cold, whoopeee!! Matelots would love it, shampoo and rinse.....!! And a dryer all in one, Did the whole Japanese bit, Sushi, miso soup (don't like it) but everything else was allright and very delicious, lots of beer and sake and bottomless legs which they thought I had!!. Sumo tournament, the hot springs, and so forth, not sure about the boys there though?
Did a sardine train one night on the Yamanote line, I was lucky that I was surrounded by women and had my hands up on the stirrups!! No flies on this kid!!
The country is beautiful, but many are still suffering while the politicians dither on the east coast, but much is being done by those in the know.... They are a tough lot in the country, but that is the contrast between city folk and country bumpkins like myself....
Tokyo cabbies think us British cabbies have very high standards, but so do they, a tad more expensive but clean and honest in the main....
I could go on but it would get boring. I have dubbed Shibuya "titty" land on account of one of it's shops in the area it's the one with all the escalators but I forget the name of the building. Roppongi reminded me of Singapore but more up market as to what it was when I was there in 1970.... Went to a drag show there where they really did have ki ti's in the cast of dancers who were very good..... One of my friends didn't realise they were men.... titter....
Its a good experience and I will go again, Nippon that is.....

Brilliant. Sounds great. Thanks for that. Did you say you did some training? You mean by Japanese??? I'm glad you exploded that myth then because on reading some folks here I was beginning to think they don't teach Geijin. Mmm, or maybe they didn't teach you their secret techniques.

Regards.G.

gregstec
06-10-2011, 02:10 PM
Better rephrase it then...?

No need to rephrase - you misunderstood my point and I clarified it for you - done, not an issue...

Tony Wagstaffe
06-10-2011, 05:05 PM
Brilliant. Sounds great. Thanks for that. Did you say you did some training? You mean by Japanese??? I'm glad you exploded that myth then because on reading some folks here I was beginning to think they don't teach Geijin. Mmm, or maybe they didn't teach you their secret techniques.

Regards.G.

Don't be daft Graham, :D there is nothing secret as its "hidden in plain sight". If there were "secrets" they would win everything outright, which they don't..... "Ki", as you call it, the Asians have no monopoly on it, race has nothing to do with it, only hard work, body conditioning and knowing which way to move......Path of least resistance.....? Every sparky knows that one....;)

Tony Wagstaffe
06-10-2011, 05:06 PM
Never said that - just said he is doing something that Tohei was not - that is all.

Greg

Still want to see it.....:D

Chris Li
06-10-2011, 05:14 PM
Still want to see it.....:D

Then go see him - he was in England recently, and he'll be back there or on the continent.

Best,

Chris

Tony Wagstaffe
06-10-2011, 09:50 PM
Then go see him - he was in England recently, and he'll be back there or on the continent.

Best,

Chris

Can't afford what he's asking to pay!! I would make that a yes if I see it first on video, and please don't tell me how I have just afforded to go to Tokyo, that wouldn't have been possible if it wasn't for the kindness of friends I have there, believe it.....
Seeing is believing as well as feeeling, don't you think? :straightf

Peter Goldsbury
06-10-2011, 11:13 PM
Managed to get some training in, Shodokan of course.... Attended the 49th conveyor belt aikido demo where I saw a few well known faces and had my photo taken with a couple, the funny part is me being a heretic which is even more hilarious....!!
But it was worth it!! You wouldn't believe where I was sat!!!!

Oh, I would.
I was there and saw someone looking suspiciously like you do in your photograph. Because you have been away from Aikiweb for a while, I did not make the connection at the time. Did they give you a bento?

Best wishes,

PAG

Mark Freeman
06-11-2011, 04:11 AM
Can't afford what he's asking to pay!! I would make that a yes if I see it first on video, and please don't tell me how I have just afforded to go to Tokyo, that wouldn't have been possible if it wasn't for the kindness of friends I have there, believe it.....
Seeing is believing as well as feeeling, don't you think? :straightf

Hi Tony,

shame you couldn't, as the whole weekend was a great experience, enjoyed by all who attended. Dan is a good teacher, who has what he says he has. He teaches with a great deal of humour, patience, enthusiasm and generosity.

Personally I came away feeling that it was time and money well spent. Apart from having the pleasure of meeting and practicing with good people from different styles of aikido and chinese martial arts, I learnt much and am now in the process of trying to integrate this into my own understanding of aikido and how I practice and teach.

I didn't go to see Dan to try and fix anything about my own aikido, I am happy with where I am with that, and I know that my teacher (who Sensei Ellis knows very well, and will confirm) is about as good as they get.

Last week an old shodan student of mine was in the area and came to visit for a session. The feedback she gave to the friend she was staying with (another shodan student of mine) was that she really enjoyed the lesson and that my teaching was somehow 'on another level'. I still teach exactly the same curriculum, however, I know that what I have gained from meeting both Dan Harden and Mike Sigman (neither of whom I was aware of before I came onto aikiweb), has both informed and inspired me to better pass on what I know to my students.

I must admit that I was sceptical of both men at first, but decided the only way to know the truth is to lay hands on both, which is what I set out to do. I'm glad I did, as I am wiser for it.

Glad you had a good time in Japan, the forum has been quite quiet in your absence;)

regards,

Mark

Tony Wagstaffe
06-11-2011, 12:07 PM
Oh, I would.
I was there and saw someone looking suspiciously like you do in your photograph. Because you have been away from Aikiweb for a while, I did not make the connection at the time. Did they give you a bento?

Best wishes,

PAG

Must have been my twin brother Peter....;) :D
No I didn't get a bento , I wasn't able to stay that long as we were with Yamaguchi Shihan of the Goju Karate Kai as his guests.... The young lady who was with us is a long time student of his, who happened to study Shodokan/Tomiki aikido with us while in the UK for 5 years....
I did look over to you but you didn't seem to recognise me, so I left it at that...... Never mind.... maybe next year if you are lucky....:D

graham christian
06-11-2011, 08:05 PM
Don't be daft Graham, :D there is nothing secret as its "hidden in plain sight". If there were "secrets" they would win everything outright, which they don't..... "Ki", as you call it, the Asians have no monopoly on it, race has nothing to do with it, only hard work, body conditioning and knowing which way to move......Path of least resistance.....? Every sparky knows that one....;)

Ahh, Grasshopper!

I never thought I would hear you talk about the path of non-resistance. Very good.

Indeed electricity and all energies follow the paths of non-resistance and that includes spiritual energy too. They follow if only we would allow them to.

Resistance blocks these paths wouldn't you say?

Regards.G.

Tony Wagstaffe
06-12-2011, 07:21 AM
Ahh, Grasshopper!

I never thought I would hear you talk about the path of non-resistance. Very good.

Indeed electricity and all energies follow the paths of non-resistance and that includes spiritual energy too. They follow if only we would allow them to.

Resistance blocks these paths wouldn't you say?

Regards.G.

Graham, the whole point of "aikido" (or even jutsu?) is to use the least point of resistance.... That can only be achieved by your partners (in your discipline) resisting you while you find the least point of resistance..... That includes atemi don't you think? Hence the reason we use the unsoku method in T/S aikido. I found this quite easy to take to after my boxing training in the R.N. All fighting or martial arts have fundamental stances and movement no matter what part of the globe it comes from. Aikido as a grappling art is no different to judo in my opinion...:)

Tony Wagstaffe
06-12-2011, 07:43 AM
Hi Tony,

shame you couldn't, as the whole weekend was a great experience, enjoyed by all who attended. Dan is a good teacher, who has what he says he has. He teaches with a great deal of humour, patience, enthusiasm and generosity.

Personally I came away feeling that it was time and money well spent. Apart from having the pleasure of meeting and practicing with good people from different styles of aikido and chinese martial arts, I learnt much and am now in the process of trying to integrate this into my own understanding of aikido and how I practice and teach.

I didn't go to see Dan to try and fix anything about my own aikido, I am happy with where I am with that, and I know that my teacher (who Sensei Ellis knows very well, and will confirm) is about as good as they get.

Last week an old shodan student of mine was in the area and came to visit for a session. The feedback she gave to the friend she was staying with (another shodan student of mine) was that she really enjoyed the lesson and that my teaching was somehow 'on another level'. I still teach exactly the same curriculum, however, I know that what I have gained from meeting both Dan Harden and Mike Sigman (neither of whom I was aware of before I came onto aikiweb), has both informed and inspired me to better pass on what I know to my students.

I must admit that I was sceptical of both men at first, but decided the only way to know the truth is to lay hands on both, which is what I set out to do. I'm glad I did, as I am wiser for it.

Glad you had a good time in Japan, the forum has been quite quiet in your absence;)

regards,

Mark

That as maybe, but I wouldn't have been here anyways, I was already in Nippon. We have an exercise in T/S called tandoku undo where we use the connection, the point of the exercise to move your partners whilst they resist, not often practised the way I have learnt to apply it...
But there you go..... Most do the exercise solo, but it is incorporated in kata's such as the dai yon of T/S aiki, so it is learnt either way.....

graham christian
06-12-2011, 11:07 AM
Graham, the whole point of "aikido" (or even jutsu?) is to use the least point of resistance.... That can only be achieved by your partners (in your discipline) resisting you while you find the least point of resistance..... That includes atemi don't you think? Hence the reason we use the unsoku method in T/S aikido. I found this quite easy to take to after my boxing training in the R.N. All fighting or martial arts have fundamental stances and movement no matter what part of the globe it comes from. Aikido as a grappling art is no different to judo in my opinion...:)

Hi Tony. Agreed on the points of finding least resistance and that it includes atemi.

Partners resisting thus forcing you to find those points and indeed those paths is very good training so no disagreement there.

I got invited to a Yoshinkan seminar many moons ago in Bushey, near watford and watched a great exhibition from Aikidoka from all over. It finished with the great man of Yoshinkan doing his demos which were very humourous and had the audience laughing.

However, due to how I had been trained I came away wondering why the students and most of the teachers used resistance and thus got thrown around like toys. I soon got to meet some of them as they visited our dojo, a lot of them knew my teacher and it was there I found the answer to my question.

They hadn't been taught how to hold without such resistance, how to hold in such a way that was centered, relaxed, yet unenterable by someone attacking or trying to do a technique using force. In other words they hadn't been taught the other side of the coin so to speak.

You could say that when you experience someone holding with full non-resistance you enter a whole new arena for to them they say they feel like they are bumping into a wall or something similar yet to you it feels like you are doing 'nothing' and may I say from the outside it looks so as well.

Now before you jump on me there may I say that on reading your recent comments you have experienced this. That's one thing that made me smile. I mean, if you spent all those years getting up to 4th dan then I knew you must know about this side of things to whatever degree. Am I right?

Regards.G.

Tony Wagstaffe
06-12-2011, 02:00 PM
Hi Tony. Agreed on the points of finding least resistance and that it includes atemi.

Partners resisting thus forcing you to find those points and indeed those paths is very good training so no disagreement there.

I got invited to a Yoshinkan seminar many moons ago in Bushey, near watford and watched a great exhibition from Aikidoka from all over. It finished with the great man of Yoshinkan doing his demos which were very humourous and had the audience laughing.

However, due to how I had been trained I came away wondering why the students and most of the teachers used resistance and thus got thrown around like toys. I soon got to meet some of them as they visited our dojo, a lot of them knew my teacher and it was there I found the answer to my question.

They hadn't been taught how to hold without such resistance, how to hold in such a way that was centered, relaxed, yet unenterable by someone attacking or trying to do a technique using force. In other words they hadn't been taught the other side of the coin so to speak.

You could say that when you experience someone holding with full non-resistance you enter a whole new arena for to them they say they feel like they are bumping into a wall or something similar yet to you it feels like you are doing 'nothing' and may I say from the outside it looks so as well.

Now before you jump on me there may I say that on reading your recent comments you have experienced this. That's one thing that made me smile. I mean, if you spent all those years getting up to 4th dan then I knew you must know about this side of things to whatever degree. Am I right?

Regards.G.

I teach my students to resist me fully and let them learn from an uke point of view, if they don't quite get it, I then show them where the angle or least point of resistance is and it always gets a giggle and shaking of heads.... It's where the fun is G, call it I/P or whatever, it can only be done from that option in my opinion. I use my son regularly to test my theories on..... He has a sceptical but healthy respect and passing interest for what I can do as he is massively and naturally strong at 20 yrs, 6'2" and weighs 240 lbs.... I move him with ease and he will spot any weakness in my waza straight away. He is able to do the jo trick and the pushing against his head in a sitting position after I taught him Isometrics, which he has taken up fairly recently. I think that once I am able to resurrect a dojo he will want to come and practice..... I hope he does....
T

graham christian
06-12-2011, 04:58 PM
I teach my students to resist me fully and let them learn from an uke point of view, if they don't quite get it, I then show them where the angle or least point of resistance is and it always gets a giggle and shaking of heads.... It's where the fun is G, call it I/P or whatever, it can only be done from that option in my opinion. I use my son regularly to test my theories on..... He has a sceptical but healthy respect and passing interest for what I can do as he is massively and naturally strong at 20 yrs, 6'2" and weighs 240 lbs.... I move him with ease and he will spot any weakness in my waza straight away. He is able to do the jo trick and the pushing against his head in a sitting position after I taught him Isometrics, which he has taken up fairly recently. I think that once I am able to resurrect a dojo he will want to come and practice..... I hope he does....
T

Ha ha. Now there's a memory to share. 4 years ago my son turns up by suprise and says 'Dad, it's time I learned this stuff.'

Now that brought up a whole lot of mind stuff I didn't know was there. A mixture of excitement mixed with a strange sense of a new relationship, I mean this was my son I would now be teaching. Took me about two weeks to acclimatise so to speak. It was so different to showing him bits and pieces piecemeal.

I hope you do train your son it's a great experience.

Regards.G.

Marc Abrams
06-13-2011, 01:36 AM
Graham, "Ki" as you call it is a subtle use of strength used economically and trained body mechanics, nothing more..... When will people get that....? As for IS/IP the same thing in another guise or hype as Dan likes to harp on about and we all know that to, so no surprise there either, but at least I speak my mind.....
The word ki was never spoken of in all the years I practised aikido except by the laziest of people hoping to find it without effort, that is the problem today....

What you do is an exercise form which is great for you, but it would not work in a real scenario where someone is not going to comply with you, and you know it.....!!

If people would own up and call it an exercise system derived from self defence then I would prefer it, but to call it self defence is an absolute joke and if we were all completely honest.....? Well I am and so are a few others on here, but the rest are completely in cuckoo land and in with the fairies, but that's life, full of Walter Mitties and few able to cope with reality.... but who am I ? Just a nobody according to many on here, ha ha!! However I do like your audacity and the way people fawn over your posts, it's quite amusing, keep it up!!

Tony,

I appreciate your consistency. As to your opinions stated about things that you have absolutely no direct experience about, you are consistently wrong. Just because you like to speak your mind, does not make you any closer to being right. Putting hands on with somebody like Dan would quickly clarify your stated position. Trying to put hands on with somebody like Ushiro Sensei (Ki in another form than Aikido- his is karate) you would not only fail, but get injured in the process.

The wise man knows where he is ignorant and seeks to explore and educate himself from those who have more knowledge than he. The wise man has no problems stating opinions based upon direct experiences, while always seeking and learning so as to develop, change and refine his opinions. The wise man typically succeeds in life, as evidenced by success in most, if not all areas (work, family, other pursuits). That success is the direct result of an utter lack of laziness. That success is the direct result from working harder and longer than most are willing to do. The Fool-on-the-hill thinks that he speaks form a high vantage point with mountains never climbed behind him. The man hides behind opinions and finds ways to avoid having to experience things that challenge current beliefs, while discounting the beliefs and experiences that are different than his. This man's life is typically reflected as well....

I am currently in the airport lounge in Narita, having spent a weekend at a special training camp widening my knowledge and horizons. Paid for with the fruits of my hard labor. Where I come from, a man makes his own way in life. Gratitude is displayed in small, yet meaningful gestures amongst fellow travelers that share much together.

It would be nice to have a meaningful discussion with you based upon real experience. That is simply impossible until such time that you stop hiding behind excuses, opinions based upon a lack of experience, and a condescending attitude toward others that frankly speaking, have achieved a heck of a lot more than you apparently might ever achieve. While those people you choose to insult, still aspire and are working hard to reach higher, continuously widen their horizons and deepen their understandings of what they know, you simply bluster and hide behind where you have placed yourself in your life.

Marc Abrams

Tony Wagstaffe
06-13-2011, 03:37 AM
Tony,

I appreciate your consistency. As to your opinions stated about things that you have absolutely no direct experience about, you are consistently wrong. Just because you like to speak your mind, does not make you any closer to being right. Putting hands on with somebody like Dan would quickly clarify your stated position. Trying to put hands on with somebody like Ushiro Sensei (Ki in another form than Aikido- his is karate) you would not only fail, but get injured in the process.

The wise man knows where he is ignorant and seeks to explore and educate himself from those who have more knowledge than he. The wise man has no problems stating opinions based upon direct experiences, while always seeking and learning so as to develop, change and refine his opinions. The wise man typically succeeds in life, as evidenced by success in most, if not all areas (work, family, other pursuits). That success is the direct result of an utter lack of laziness. That success is the direct result from working harder and longer than most are willing to do. The Fool-on-the-hill thinks that he speaks form a high vantage point with mountains never climbed behind him. The man hides behind opinions and finds ways to avoid having to experience things that challenge current beliefs, while discounting the beliefs and experiences that are different than his. This man's life is typically reflected as well....

I am currently in the airport lounge in Narita, having spent a weekend at a special training camp widening my knowledge and horizons. Paid for with the fruits of my hard labor. Where I come from, a man makes his own way in life. Gratitude is displayed in small, yet meaningful gestures amongst fellow travelers that share much together.

It would be nice to have a meaningful discussion with you based upon real experience. That is simply impossible until such time that you stop hiding behind excuses, opinions based upon a lack of experience, and a condescending attitude toward others that frankly speaking, have achieved a heck of a lot more than you apparently might ever achieve. While those people you choose to insult, still aspire and are working hard to reach higher, continuously widen their horizons and deepen their understandings of what they know, you simply bluster and hide behind where you have placed yourself in your life.

Marc Abrams

Consistent I am, conned you are or maybe you like to be conned, I don't know, I don't care..... No excuses, that is why I/we are called "Shodothugs"? When I see a form of competition in all the other forms of aikido I will be more likely to take note and listen, until then no chance. We are heretics/mavericks, no doubt about that as was Tomiki Shihan. Unfortunately a few Tomiki "exponents " have gone down the kata only route to, so no big surprise there either.
Not everyone is up to test their "ability" and I appreciate that not everyone wants to learn Self Defence, but health kata only....... Great for the elderly, less able and those of a non competitive nature.
Fine, but please admit to it. Don't say you teach self defence when it isn't....
As for "insulting" that much depends on the thickness of your skin and how sensitive your sensitivities are, but that's your problem Marc not mine...... Maybe more revealing which is good for Joe Public so that they can make a more informed decision as to what they really want from MA. It's interesting to note that MMA schools are doing well, those that teach good MMA that is, as they have their con merchants to.
Yet we see a decline in traditional Japanese MA, strange don't you think? The reason that people like Dan Harden is able to do lots of seminars teaching people how to do aikido again?..... What a mess!!
I do not profess to teach "aikido" anymore as the truth is becoming apparent there is very little of it actually around and it's synonymous with something akin to a health system, not self defence..... You tell me buddy.....

Regards
Tony

mrlizard123
06-13-2011, 06:20 AM
I do not profess to teach "aikido" anymore as...

I thought it was because you didn't have a dojo any more? :confused:

FWIW I think that were Dan to post a video, regardless of it's content, you'd be preprepared with your "been there/done that" attitude. You're welcome to your opinions but I think that the manner in which you voice them is disingenuous.

You claim to only use plain speaking and express the need for a "put up or shut up" attitude that includes testing if stuff works; so why didn't you take up Dan's offer to go and see for free and "test" him? You wouldn't shell out because it was expensive, in terms of the number of people and the time involved I don't actually think it was so expensive after all a good 12+ hours for the money. Yes I expect you'll redirect this question by asking why not free for all etc etc... please don't bother unless you want to answer the asked question first.

I'll freely admit that I was skeptical, I attended the seminar and if I had come away feeling that Dan was anything less than genuine, friendly and warm in his attitude or that he was "selling snake oil" or some such scam to gull folk out of their hard earned money I can assure you that I would be on here with a big flag waving to let people know to avoid him; I didn't because that's not the impression I came away with, I also didn't come on here to "big him up" because I don't think he needs us to do that, the only reason I decided to post is because I want to position myself (silence being assent) in opposition to the manner in which you comment and approach the debate(s).

You're welcome to your opinions but they'd come across as more worthwhile if they were based on experience and not just speculation.

Regards
Rich

Hellis
06-13-2011, 06:34 AM
Tony said
The word ki was never spoken of in all the years I practised aikido

Hi Tony

Good to see you back. I thought you had been banned and deported :-)
In the 1950s / 1960s we never discussed Ki - Abbe Sensei said it was being taught by correct application of technique - there was no need to keep on about Ki - in those days it was just a part of your application of technique, never was it considered to have magical properties.. It those days Aikido was taught as a martial art or self defence - take yer pick.
You raise many good points Tony, but I am afraid you are flogging that long dead old horse, once you realise it really is dead then like me you will finally let them get on with whatever they want ``their `` Aikido to be...Relax Tony, breath through your toes, it will be good for you.

Henry

Henry Ellis
http://rik-ellis.blogspot.com/

thisisnotreal
06-13-2011, 06:48 AM
the only reason I decided to post is because I want to position myself (silence being assent) in opposition to the manner in which you comment and approach the debate(s).
Fine. Then for that reason I second this comment.

Diana Frese
06-13-2011, 07:03 AM
I kind of knew someday I'd jump into this topic. :eek: I waited so long I had to jump in with both feet and so many serious practicioners of all types surrounding this topic. Too bad there's no emoticon for kinda scared ....

I have a varied background which includes what you might call "solid" aikido, and the more "ki-oriented" you might say. I'm grateful to both.

I'm also familiar with both conversation styles, having been a gofer in the building trades ;) for many years after the family publishing business was sold...

I think my best recommendation for the future of aikido is to make clear to each entering (and continuing) student what the panorama is and have them think what suits their needs and capabilities at the time, but keep in mind what they might need to train later on...

I'll stop here for now, but I just wanted to pay respects to both sides in a very forceful and vehement way, although my writing style isn't as good as the rest of you!

lbb
06-13-2011, 08:09 AM
I guess things were just too peaceful and we needed another rousing chorus of the blind men describing the elephant, at top volume, as acrimoniously as possible, screaming insults and waving their canes as they try to bash each other into agreement/submission. What a disgrace.

thisisnotreal
06-13-2011, 08:30 AM
-lol-:cool:

mrlizard123
06-13-2011, 08:53 AM
I guess things were just too peaceful and we needed another rousing chorus of the blind men describing the elephant, at top volume, as acrimoniously as possible, screaming insults and waving their canes as they try to bash each other into agreement/submission. What a disgrace.

Thanks Mary :cool:

Tony Wagstaffe
06-13-2011, 10:08 AM
Tony said
The word ki was never spoken of in all the years I practised aikido

Hi Tony

Good to see you back. I thought you had been banned and deported :-)
In the 1950s / 1960s we never discussed Ki - Abbe Sensei said it was being taught by correct application of technique - there was no need to keep on about Ki - in those days it was just a part of your application of technique, never was it considered to have magical properties.. It those days Aikido was taught as a martial art or self defence - take yer pick.
You raise many good points Tony, but I am afraid you are flogging that long dead old horse, once you realise it really is dead then like me you will finally let them get on with whatever they want ``their `` Aikido to be...Relax Tony, breath through your toes, it will be good for you.

Henry

Henry Ellis
http://rik-ellis.blogspot.com/

I know Henry that you are right, it's just such a disappointment that people can only resort to belittling me with so called intellectual philosophy and cannot see what it is us more dinosaury igorant folk might actually see and feeeeeeeel, when in fact I have shown them up to be what I have always suspected, but I shouldn't actually act at being surprised, because I'm not.....
I may be academically thick, but I do know a scam when I see it, and know the truth when it's presented to me hidden in plain sight!!
The old true school are dying and it makes me wonder what the hell I've been doing all these years when I read what I read on this forum, which to me, and I suspect quite a few others think to, that it's too far gone down the pan and it needs people like Desperate Dan's new age I/P I/S to get it all back on line again? Yet we can't find out anything about him? Other than say so, which is expected from "disciples"....... I have heard he is a smithy in weapons or some such thing. Short of using a mechanical hammer other than his own physical strength, (if he still uses the old methods?) would mean that he has good body core strength from hard physical work. Add a bit of training in some combat arts and hey presto we have a new martial awareness which no one else or few have discovered....... What??
Tomiki Shihan was of the same attitude as your teachers that the practice of waza, hard training and it's basics are where it's really at..... It's what he learned from Kano and Ueshiba, or maybe it's all lies?
Oh no!! It's now some new age thing called I/P I/S aikido is now the thing to be sought after....... It remains to be seen, but I sincerely have my doubts and will continue to breathe as I have always done since birth or go blue in the face trying otherwise. As for relaxing I have managed to learn that to some extent over the years. I think I have done enough to let people know the difference to really have their eyes and ears open and not listen to the claptrap that has been the fashion to follow until it's been tried and truly tested. I am always amazed at how gullible people are, but that's life Sensei...... Maybe I should be banned & deported so that the new age way can have their way?
Hows Rik & Derek?

Tony Wagstaffe
06-13-2011, 10:15 AM
I guess things were just too peaceful and we needed another rousing chorus of the blind men describing the elephant, at top volume, as acrimoniously as possible, screaming insults and waving their canes as they try to bash each other into agreement/submission. What a disgrace.

Which is what I would expect from an old school mistress type, rapping my fingers with a wooden ruler when I was naughty :D

Tony Wagstaffe
06-13-2011, 10:19 AM
I kind of knew someday I'd jump into this topic. :eek: I waited so long I had to jump in with both feet and so many serious practicioners of all types surrounding this topic. Too bad there's no emoticon for kinda scared ....

I have a varied background which includes what you might call "solid" aikido, and the more "ki-oriented" you might say. I'm grateful to both.

I'm also familiar with both conversation styles, having been a gofer in the building trades ;) for many years after the family publishing business was sold...

I think my best recommendation for the future of aikido is to make clear to each entering (and continuing) student what the panorama is and have them think what suits their needs and capabilities at the time, but keep in mind what they might need to train later on...

I'll stop here for now, but I just wanted to pay respects to both sides in a very forceful and vehement way, although my writing style isn't as good as the rest of you!

Actually Dianne I like your writing and the way you tell little stories about your experiences.... it has a ring of truth about it all, which I find endearing.... :)

Chris Li
06-13-2011, 10:25 AM
The old true school are dying and it makes me wonder what the hell I've been doing all these years when I read what I read on this forum, which to me, and I suspect quite a few others think to, that it's too far gone down the pan and it needs people like Desperate Dan's new age I/P I/S to get it all back on line again? Yet we can't find out anything about him? Other than say so, which is expected from "disciples"....... I have heard he is a smithy in weapons or some such thing. Short of using a mechanical hammer other than his own physical strength, (if he still uses the old methods?) would mean that he has good body core strength from hard physical work. Add a bit of training in some combat arts and hey presto we have a new martial awareness which no one else or few have discovered....... What??

I never thought that I'd see the day that Dan was described as "new age". Really Tony, I think you'd enjoy meeting him, give it a try.

Best,

Chris

Tony Wagstaffe
06-13-2011, 11:18 AM
I thought it was because you didn't have a dojo any more? :confused:

FWIW I think that were Dan to post a video, regardless of it's content, you'd be preprepared with your "been there/done that" attitude. You're welcome to your opinions but I think that the manner in which you voice them is disingenuous.

You claim to only use plain speaking and express the need for a "put up or shut up" attitude that includes testing if stuff works; so why didn't you take up Dan's offer to go and see for free and "test" him? You wouldn't shell out because it was expensive, in terms of the number of people and the time involved I don't actually think it was so expensive after all a good 12+ hours for the money. Yes I expect you'll redirect this question by asking why not free for all etc etc... please don't bother unless you want to answer the asked question first.

I'll freely admit that I was skeptical, I attended the seminar and if I had come away feeling that Dan was anything less than genuine, friendly and warm in his attitude or that he was "selling snake oil" or some such scam to gull folk out of their hard earned money I can assure you that I would be on here with a big flag waving to let people know to avoid him; I didn't because that's not the impression I came away with, I also didn't come on here to "big him up" because I don't think he needs us to do that, the only reason I decided to post is because I want to position myself (silence being assent) in opposition to the manner in which you comment and approach the debate(s).

You're welcome to your opinions but they'd come across as more worthwhile if they were based on experience and not just speculation.

Regards
Rich

No Rich wrong, I might even see something in common with what I do and be more inclined to want to try out one of DD,s seminars, but I still think it's expensive, until then I don't go for something blind. By the way warm & friendly is sometimes a good marketing ploy. It makes one popular and I have found it a little too familiar. I tend to be a little distant until I feel comfortable with people and then open up. Something a little old fashioned & typically British? Others have put up stuff like Aunkai and Ushiro , although I've seen his stuff before and know where he is coming from, (some of it is very similar to T/S aikido believe it or not) but most mainstream aikido has this missing as well as other MA, oh what a shame!!..... I'm glad that I didn't waiver in my past and stuck to what I know works best, hard work, strong basics and good teachers.... It's where we differ maybe?

Tony Wagstaffe
06-13-2011, 11:26 AM
I never thought that I'd see the day that Dan was described as "new age". Really Tony, I think you'd enjoy meeting him, give it a try.

Best,

Chris

Always a first time, as I have said put up something for us to see and it might happen.....

mrlizard123
06-13-2011, 11:33 AM
By the way warm & friendly is sometimes a good marketing ploy.

I'm glad that I didn't waiver in my past and stuck to what I know works best, hard work, strong basics and good teachers.... It's where we differ maybe?

I was not passing judgement on either your training or teachers but rather your manner in discussing perspectives; I'm not in a position to judge you or your teacher(s).

Looking at your reply it could be inferred from that you've no qualms in doing that with my training and teachers which suggests that perhaps you could examine your own observation regarding being more warm and friendly; I may have misunderstood you though.

You were given an opportunity for a risk free trial of something and turned it down, it's your option to do so, but to continue to denigrate it because you've chosen not seen it when given the opportunity and also to cast aspersions about someone you haven't met is just not cricket.

Tony Wagstaffe
06-13-2011, 11:36 AM
I was not passing judgement on either your training or teachers but rather your manner in discussing perspectives; I'm not in a position to judge you or your teacher(s).

Looking at your reply it could be inferred from that you've no qualms in doing that with my training and teachers which suggests that perhaps you could examine your own observation regarding being more warm and friendly; I may have misunderstood you though.

You were given an opportunity for a risk free trial of something and turned it down, it's your option to do so, but to continue to denigrate it because you've chosen not seen it when given the opportunity and also to cast aspersions about someone you haven't met is just not cricket.

I don't play cricket.....

DH
06-13-2011, 11:37 AM
I never thought that I'd see the day that Dan was described as "new age". Really Tony, I think you'd enjoy meeting him, give it a try.

Best,

Chris
Much less since the tenants of what I am teaching, pre-date most of the martial methods we see. It stands to reason it will cause angst among those who learned the martial arts from the outside...in.
Tony's sarcastic comment "I guess I have been doing everything wrong..." I actually I have heard from shihan, senior teachers and students alike. "I didn't know, that I didn't know..." as a regular occurance in my world. In fact, from so many teachers in different branchs of the art that I lost track. Finding out you never really got aiki after trying most of your life is tough on all of us. More so that so many teachers didn't know how to teach it.
New age...is paltry to the host of insults I get to listen to from Tony, and this after offering to host him for free and buy him dinner.
Liar
Manipulator,
con man
scam artist
charleton
snake oil salesman
Obviously all okay to say here, and any attempt at a defense lumps me in as "being the same." What is clear is that it is NOT okay to respond.
So, no thanks to what is loosely being called a discussion, and no thanks to any meeting.
Dan

Gerardo Torres
06-13-2011, 11:43 AM
In the 1950s / 1960s we never discussed Ki - Abbe Sensei said it was being taught by correct application of technique - there was no need to keep on about Ki - in those days it was just a part of your application of technique, never was it considered to have magical properties.. It those days Aikido was taught as a martial art or self defence - take yer pick.
Is it possible that Abbe Sensei didn't possess enough information about ki or ki training that others had?

Regards,
Gerardo

mrlizard123
06-13-2011, 11:47 AM
I don't play cricket.....

My "not cricket" idiom means "not fair" or "not sporting" as you, I'm sure, well know; I can't help but agree based upon your lack of clarification regarding your judgemental comments passed at my training and teachers.

No one said life was supposed to be fair but discussions with people who are quick to drop to personal attacks is unfruitful and, in my opinion, this discussion has run its course.

sakumeikan
06-13-2011, 11:49 AM
Which is what I would expect from an old school mistress type, rapping my fingers with a wooden ruler when I was naughty :D

Tony,
Hows the knuckles?Bit bruised?? I bet you would look cute with a pair of darkened glasses /white stick tapping on the buttocks of a Indian elephant.Maybe Mary would care to produce a remake of an old Sabu the elephant boy movie and put you in the leading role??
Methinks you would be better than Mr Seagal. Title of said Movie =Tony, the Blind Elephant Man and his faithful Companion , White Cane checking out Dumbo.Have an nice day, Sabu,
Cheers, Joe.

sakumeikan
06-13-2011, 11:57 AM
Is it possible that Abbe Sensei didn't possess enough information about ki or ki training that others had?

Regards,
Gerardo
Dear Gerado,
As someone who met and practised with Abbe Sensei I can tell you he had more Budo talent in his little finger than most people have in their whole body.The very idea that Abbe Sensei was unaware of Aiki to me is nonsense.As the founder of Kyu Shin Do [I suggest you research this ] he was a man who in my opinion was a genius.He was instrumental in introducing Aikido to the U.K in the 50s.
For a start check out Mr Ellis webpage on the Net.
Cheers, Joe.

Chris Li
06-13-2011, 12:02 PM
Much less since the tenants of what I am teaching, pre-date most of the martial methods we see. It stands to reason it will cause angst among those who learned the martial arts from the outside...in.
Tony's sarcastic comment "I guess I have been doing everything wrong..." I actually I have heard from shihan, senior teachers and students alike. "I didn't know, that I didn't know..." as a regular occurance in my world. In fact, from so many teachers in different branchs of the art that I lost track. Finding out you never really got aiki after trying most of your life is tough on all of us. More so that so many teachers didn't know how to teach it.
New age...is paltry to the host of insults I get to listen to from Tony, and this after offering to host him for free and buy him dinner.
Liar
Manipulator,
con man
scam artist
charleton
snake oil salesman
Obviously all okay to say here, and any attempt at a defense lumps me in as "being the same." What is clear is that it is NOT okay to respond.
So, no thanks to what is loosely being called a discussion, and no thanks to any meeting.
Dan

Hey, where's my free dinner? Well, more of Dan for the rest of us :) .

Best,

Chris

Tony Wagstaffe
06-13-2011, 12:15 PM
Much less since the tenants of what I am teaching, pre-date most of the martial methods we see. It stands to reason it will cause angst among those who learned the martial arts from the outside...in.
Tony's sarcastic comment "I guess I have been doing everything wrong..." I actually I have heard from shihan, senior teachers and students alike. "I didn't know, that I didn't know..." as a regular occurance in my world. In fact, from so many teachers in different branchs of the art that I lost track. Finding out you never really got aiki after trying most of your life is tough on all of us. More so that so many teachers didn't know how to teach it.
New age...is paltry to the host of insults I get to listen to from Tony, and this after offering to host him for free and buy him dinner.
Liar
Manipulator,
con man
scam artist
charleton
snake oil salesman
Obviously all okay to say here, and any attempt at a defense lumps me in as "being the same." What is clear is that it is NOT okay to respond.
So, no thanks to what is loosely being called a discussion, and no thanks to any meeting.
Dan

So who were your teachers Dan? I'm all ears........

DH
06-13-2011, 12:15 PM
Hey, where's my free dinner? Well, more of Dan for the rest of us :) .

Best,

Chris
Said in my best soup nazi voice. " No dinner for you!"
Besides, according to Tony, you and every other person who found value in what I am doing is stupid, gullible, ignorant...is an aiki bunny doesn't know aikido and is now....a disciple!
I guess you drank some kool- aid I had for sale.
see ya soon. I have new powdered mix in my shorts....wait...not what I meant...
Me

Hellis
06-13-2011, 12:42 PM
Is it possible that Abbe Sensei didn't possess enough information about ki or ki training that others had?

Regards,
Gerardo

"In the 1950s / 1960s we never discussed Ki - Abbe Sensei said it was being taught by correct application of technique - there was no need to keep on about Ki "

As I stated - we were taught Ki within our training just as we would with any other exercise - just didn't treat it as anything mystical.

Henry Ellis
http://kenshiroabbe.blogspot.com/

DH
06-13-2011, 12:42 PM
It isn't mystical. The most interesting point remains on the table. The first and foremost notion of ki....was FOR strength. So, how did modern budo people so totally corrupt a concept they obviously don't understand.
Dan

hughrbeyer
06-13-2011, 01:00 PM
This whole thread is reminding me of a saying we have in my part of the world: "Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig."

Tony's got his mind made up and though I'd never suggest he might be a trifle pig-headed, I think even he'd admit to being just a bit stubborn. All these attempts to make him think different are not going to go anywhere. One day, he'll meet someone who has what Dan's been teaching. Until then you can slag away at each other, but why? Ya should be on the mat.

Budd
06-13-2011, 01:05 PM
Well, I think at this point the party lines of most detractors is "We already do that" or "It is fake" yet when actually called to go check it out or feel what's going on, there's always some excuse or reason why they can't.

Whatever - if you haven't figured out by either the discussions or the behind the scenes scurry of hundreds of people out there trying to play catch-up to one degree or another - then best wishes and good luck to you, there's nothing to see here.

Oh and another thing . . there's still value in comporting yourself as a gentleperson such that, it's easier to keep doors open with consideration and manners so that you have choices and options - rather than assuming that you are entitled to whatever selection on the menu strikes your interest at any given time. Everything has a cost - and it's not always about money. Credibility and respect are still valuable commodities that are worth cultivating.

hughrbeyer
06-13-2011, 01:16 PM
Whatever - if you haven't figured out by either the discussions or the behind the scenes scurry of hundreds of people out there trying to play catch-up to one degree or another - then best wishes and good luck to you, there's nothing to see here.

You know, I think you're right. We need to take the old kobudo attitude towards this.

Nothing to see here. Move along. Dan? Who? Oh, that guy. Never mind him. You're doing good stuff, right? Just keep doing it. We'll be busy over here...

Tony Wagstaffe
06-13-2011, 01:21 PM
This whole thread is reminding me of a saying we have in my part of the world: "Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig."

Tony's got his mind made up and though I'd never suggest he might be a trifle pig-headed, I think even he'd admit to being just a bit stubborn. All these attempts to make him think different are not going to go anywhere. One day, he'll meet someone who has what Dan's been teaching. Until then you can slag away at each other, but why? Ya should be on the mat.

Oink, Oink, how do you know I already have?

SteveTrinkle
06-13-2011, 01:54 PM
What was in that Kool-Aid? I'd like some more!

gregstec
06-13-2011, 02:07 PM
What was in that Kool-Aid? I'd like some more!

We will have some more for you this Saturday - plus some beer too! :)

Greg

SteveTrinkle
06-13-2011, 02:19 PM
Far out man! Groovy!

I'll bring my crystals and some more scented candles.

gregstec
06-13-2011, 02:43 PM
Far out man! Groovy!

I'll bring my crystals and some more scented candles.

geeze, not another burned out 60's freak like my wife :eek:

you don't also have a tied-dyed hakama do you / :D

DH
06-13-2011, 03:01 PM
You know, I think you're right. We need to take the old kobudo attitude towards this.

Nothing to see here. Move along. Dan? Who? Oh, that guy. Never mind him. You're doing good stuff, right? Just keep doing it. We'll be busy over here...
Even tougher when you tell people " I watched you on video. You don't have it."
Then you also say " It has to be felt, you can't see it on video."
To which, people rightfully balk.
To which I reply "I never said you couldn't see it on video...
I said YOU couldn't see it on video."
"It takes an educated eye. Which causes even more angst!!!
Think of the latest vids going round with a certain person. You have all these newly educated eyes....joining with their teachers, who all see the mistakes and obvious flaws. It's not a way to win friends...so you shut up. But the people who are out there now doing the work all are seeing the same thing!!
Oy!
Dan

SteveTrinkle
06-13-2011, 03:45 PM
Speaking for myself only, regarding what Dan's saying, with 17 years of training (with some great teachers), I could not have "seen" this on a video. I had to experience it physically. But maybe that's just me. I don't have an axe to grind here, just pursuing my personal goals and having a great time.

graham christian
06-13-2011, 04:11 PM
I see this thread has brought up a lot of side issues. That's o.k. from the view of seeing different perspectives on things.

I think it's been quite interesting myself.

The ip followers stuck in pr as they can't show visuals or discuss the system or individual exercises that they do. Thus they have no choice but to say come and see for yourself.

Tony basically saying less pr more show.

Meanwhile Toheis Aikido neither understood, validated or indeed seen as anything to do with the thread.

I did notice that earlier Dan seems to imply that he is taking what Tohei did that step further. Huh.

On the other hand others say it was taught as just a part of what they were doing of no further significance than that. Fair play, at least that's honest.

I will however point out that Tohei was around at the same time as these other talked about teachers be they Tomiki or whoever so his way is also old school but not the same. Would I put down Abbe Senseis way or Tomiki Senseis way? No.

Oh to be understanding and respectful without the need to put another way down or promote yours as better.

Anyway, have fun.

Regards.G.

Janet Rosen
06-13-2011, 06:19 PM
Meanwhile Toheis Aikido neither understood, validated or indeed seen as anything to do with the thread. .

My two cents, which may not even be worth that much...
My current lineage is via Tohei Sensei and I have been doing ki exercises as part of warmups for some years.

But after taking a workshop w/ Mike Sigman I started to change HOW I did them and then after a recent seminar wi/ Ikeda Sensei have further refined the actual body usage involved in how I do them . At some point maybe time/geography will work for me to meet Dan as well.

So based on my experience and seeing/feeling how some folks train, I believe that Tohei's Four Principles are sound AND I believe that some people "got it" from him - for instance my late aikido teacher - but that his Four Principles, while representing his best effort to explain what it was he could and did do, were not always taught and transmitted that well.

YMMV.

graham christian
06-13-2011, 06:39 PM
My two cents, which may not even be worth that much...
My current lineage is via Tohei Sensei and I have been doing ki exercises as part of warmups for some years.

But after taking a workshop w/ Mike Sigman I started to change HOW I did them and then after a recent seminar wi/ Ikeda Sensei have further refined the actual body usage involved in how I do them . At some point maybe time/geography will work for me to meet Dan as well.

So based on my experience and seeing/feeling how some folks train, I believe that Tohei's Four Principles are sound AND I believe that some people "got it" from him - for instance my late aikido teacher - but that his Four Principles, while representing his best effort to explain what it was he could and did do, were not always taught and transmitted that well.

YMMV.

Thank you Janet. Very interesting. I take it you are referring to the four principles of spirit/mind- body unification.

I too have met some who just say the right words but in my view we must remember it's a discipline, the more practiced the more understood.

Just as a side note here there are also the five principles of Aikido as well.

Compared to a lot of the comments here I would say your 2cents was worth 20 dollars.

Regards.G.

Budd
06-13-2011, 08:08 PM
Think of the latest vids going round with a certain person. You have all these newly educated eyes....joining with their teachers, who all see the mistakes and obvious flaws. It's not a way to win friends...so you shut up. But the people who are out there now doing the work all are seeing the same thing!!
Oy!
Dan

Er, Dan, why can't we just have the conversation regarding the vids? If they're consumable in a public format then we should take the opportunity to talk through what's being shown versus what's being seen, etc.

Or am I missing part of the conversation . . again . . *grumbles* nobody ever tells me anything.

JO
06-13-2011, 09:07 PM
Even tougher when you tell people " I watched you on video. You don't have it."
Then you also say " It has to be felt, you can't see it on video."
To which, people rightfully balk.
To which I reply "I never said you couldn't see it on video...
I said YOU couldn't see it on video."
"It takes an educated eye. Which causes even more angst!!!
Think of the latest vids going round with a certain person. You have all these newly educated eyes....joining with their teachers, who all see the mistakes and obvious flaws. It's not a way to win friends...so you shut up. But the people who are out there now doing the work all are seeing the same thing!!
Oy!
Dan

I don't know Dan, there have been a couple of people who have gone out of their way to put up videos of their own for comparison, but I don't recall anybody with "educated eyes" giving much useful feedback. Chris Hein's videos of push tests and his reproductions of exercises from videos of Akuzawa come to mind. Their is no reason to hold back comments on videos from people asking for those comments. I also think Tony has definitely deserved a thorough deconstruction of his videos (no need to be polite with him, he would see it as weakness I think).

I've been watching these discussions here for years now, it's been a while since anybody really said anything new. For the record, I'd love to see and feel what you do in person to put all this blablabla in perspective. But it bugs me that I don't even know what you look like or have any idea of how you move or what your training entails.

On a more general note, the video I want to see from the aiki folks is not another push test or a bunch of followers falling over for their teachers. I want to see what happens when two people of real skill train with each other, when it's not a given who will end up staring at the ceiling. You claim to train that way Dan, that's what I'd like to see.

Mary Eastland
06-13-2011, 09:16 PM
Ki development in the context of the aikido I train in is based on non competive testing. Maruyama, Sensei and my teacher Ron Ragusa, Sensei stressed this aspect as being most important.

I am sure someone will always be stronger and better than me.

That is not the point for me. It is important that I don't compete and that I don't have to make you wrong so I can be right.

oisin bourke
06-13-2011, 09:23 PM
On a more general note, the video I want to see from the aiki folks is not another push test or a bunch of followers falling over for their teachers. I want to see what happens when two people of real skill train with each other, when it's not a given who will end up staring at the ceiling. You claim to train that way Dan, that's what I'd like to see.

Aren't you one of the "aiki folks"?:) .

Personally, I think that video does better service in terms of clearly demonstrating "the basics" ( ie: basic techniques and excercises). Upping the ante makes already subtle skills even harder to clearly pick out IMO.

Budd
06-13-2011, 09:38 PM
Personally, I think that video does better service in terms of clearly demonstrating "the basics" ( ie: basic techniques and excercises). Upping the ante makes already subtle skills even harder to clearly pick out IMO.

I kinda agree with this - for no other reason than to make sure people are on the same page when discussing "the basics".

hughrbeyer
06-13-2011, 09:50 PM
Graham, I haven't commented on the Tohei video you posted because I don't have much that's useful to say. What I see in it is a lot of bouncy-bouncy external movement. That may be expressive of a certain use of ki and connection for all I know, but it has nothing to do with the kind of connection I'm working on right now. Contrast it with the vid of Numata Sensei I posted (picking on him just to keep away from any IS/IP controversy). What I see there is connection and power delivered through a relaxed structure so easily that there's no need for a lot of external movement. *That's* what I'm going for. So it's a different path.

I have to say in response to Janet, just to rant for a bit, that I'm very tired of schools which say "Oh, we have all that aiki in our basic exercises, it's just that no one does them right." I bought that once, but now I've experienced one system that trains the internals directly--you can't help but practice the right internals unless you're wearing your iPod to class. And another system which doesn't talk the internals at all (so far in my experience) but locks the body movements in in such a way that if you do the exercises at all, you can't help but practice the right internals.

So I say, if you have a bunch of students all of whom are doing the exercises without knowing why or moving with the right internals, your system has failed. Not the students, not even the teachers--the system. This stuff does not have to be so flipping esoteric. And I'd suggest, respectfully, exploring some of the options and see what's worth importing into your style.

JO
06-13-2011, 10:13 PM
Aren't you one of the "aiki folks"?:) .

Personally, I think that video does better service in terms of clearly demonstrating "the basics" ( ie: basic techniques and excercises). Upping the ante makes already subtle skills even harder to clearly pick out IMO.

Well, I train in aikido. I meant the IS/IP/IT/Ki, whatever. But you knew that anyway.

Nothing wrong with showing basics, but when it stops there, you get a "so what" reflex, especially from those that train "hard", as they say. Me, when I see great claims of martial power and effectiveness, I have a gut reaction that says "show me". And demos of basic exercises with cooperative partners don't show that (I've tried to walk mma type youtube commenters through the basics and objectives of my dan exam clips, so I speak from experience).

Tony Wagstaffe
06-14-2011, 03:59 AM
Well, I train in aikido. I meant the IS/IP/IT/Ki, whatever. But you knew that anyway.

Nothing wrong with showing basics, but when it stops there, you get a "so what" reflex, especially from those that train "hard", as they say. Me, when I see great claims of martial power and effectiveness, I have a gut reaction that says "show me". And demos of basic exercises with cooperative partners don't show that (I've tried to walk mma type youtube commenters through the basics and objectives of my dan exam clips, so I speak from experience).

How refreshing, someone who isn't afraid to say what they is thinking....

Tony Wagstaffe
06-14-2011, 04:16 AM
I don't know Dan, there have been a couple of people who have gone out of their way to put up videos of their own for comparison, but I don't recall anybody with "educated eyes" giving much useful feedback. Chris Hein's videos of push tests and his reproductions of exercises from videos of Akuzawa come to mind. Their is no reason to hold back comments on videos from people asking for those comments. I also think Tony has definitely deserved a thorough deconstruction of his videos (no need to be polite with him, he would see it as weakness I think).

I've been watching these discussions here for years now, it's been a while since anybody really said anything new. For the record, I'd love to see and feel what you do in person to put all this blablabla in perspective. But it bugs me that I don't even know what you look like or have any idea of how you move or what your training entails.

On a more general note, the video I want to see from the aiki folks is not another push test or a bunch of followers falling over for their teachers. I want to see what happens when two people of real skill train with each other, when it's not a given who will end up staring at the ceiling. You claim to train that way Dan, that's what I'd like to see.

Jonathan, I think it bugs a lot of people if they were really honest, I just keep chipping away until I'm satisfied that the person is being upfront about who they are and what they do..... I just don't take it seriously from people who have trained seminars and come away with the "alleluia bit" (The I've discovered god or jesus has come into my life bit comes to mind) Please all Christians don't take that as being offensive I was brought up as a roman candle.....
I don't profess to have something fantastic or have something that no one else has and then market it on a forum without any previous...
I think it's only natural that one would check up first to buy something on the internet.... There are cases of people that have done so and have lost or wasted their money, but don't like to admit they have been taken for a mug, nothing new.....

john.burn
06-14-2011, 04:33 AM
I think it's only natural that one would check up first to buy something on the internet.... There are cases of people that have done so and have lost or wasted their money, but don't like to admit they have been taken for a mug, nothing new.....

Tony,

When you've been given the chance to sample it for free, no money up front with no need for a full money back guarantee offer, a completely free 'no obligation to buy' trial then why would you refuse such an offer based on your comments above?

Seems like you've never answered that very point yet many have asked and noted it... You could have seen and felt first hand - way better than watching some fake video...

oisin bourke
06-14-2011, 04:48 AM
Well, I train in aikido. I meant the IS/IP/IT/Ki, whatever. But you knew that anyway.



Sure. It was my attempt at on-line humour.:)

graham christian
06-14-2011, 04:56 AM
Graham, I haven't commented on the Tohei video you posted because I don't have much that's useful to say. What I see in it is a lot of bouncy-bouncy external movement. That may be expressive of a certain use of ki and connection for all I know, but it has nothing to do with the kind of connection I'm working on right now. Contrast it with the vid of Numata Sensei I posted (picking on him just to keep away from any IS/IP controversy). What I see there is connection and power delivered through a relaxed structure so easily that there's no need for a lot of external movement. *That's* what I'm going for. So it's a different path.

I have to say in response to Janet, just to rant for a bit, that I'm very tired of schools which say "Oh, we have all that aiki in our basic exercises, it's just that no one does them right." I bought that once, but now I've experienced one system that trains the internals directly--you can't help but practice the right internals unless you're wearing your iPod to class. And another system which doesn't talk the internals at all (so far in my experience) but locks the body movements in in such a way that if you do the exercises at all, you can't help but practice the right internals.

So I say, if you have a bunch of students all of whom are doing the exercises without knowing why or moving with the right internals, your system has failed. Not the students, not even the teachers--the system. This stuff does not have to be so flipping esoteric. And I'd suggest, respectfully, exploring some of the options and see what's worth importing into your style.

Hugh. You are right, you don't know what Tohei is doing and so you see it as you describe.

The specific vid you mention, where exactly is it? I have seen the William Gleason videos and have commented on them, positive I might add.

You are also right in saying this stuff doesn't have to be so flippin esoteric. It doesn't HAVE to be. However mine IS.

Now saying if internals are missing then my system has failed is like me saying if your system doesn't relate the principles spiritually to universal love, loving protection etc. then yours has failed. A silly statement.

I see principles involved in William Gleasons videos and how he's applying them and if his students are loving it and learning and progressing then that's great by me. I also see principles of what I do not in them but for me to say he should explore such and incorporate them into his would be a bit arrogant on my part and totally unnecessary.

Now I'm not saying I cannot learn something from any other system which add to or benefit my own but that's so obvious it doesn't need saying or indeed mean telling others they need this or that.

It's simple really. A biologist may find the answer he is looking for when watching a programme on physics and thus improve his understanding in his field.

Regards.G..

mrlizard123
06-14-2011, 05:02 AM
why would you refuse such an offer based on your comments above?

Apparently because going to a seminar and coming back with any first hand experience leaves you less qualified to discuss the subject (which in this case was not teaching us how to do aikido) due to the delusions you acquire whilst attending; no one has the ability to see through a con or if they do they wouldn't talk about it because everyone is too frightened of what people might think.

It's much clearer now; less exposure = greater knowledge.

HL1978
06-14-2011, 08:08 AM
I don't know Dan, there have been a couple of people who have gone out of their way to put up videos of their own for comparison, but I don't recall anybody with "educated eyes" giving much useful feedback. Chris Hein's videos of push tests and his reproductions of exercises from videos of Akuzawa come to mind. Their is no reason to hold back comments on videos from people asking for those comments. I also think Tony has definitely deserved a thorough deconstruction of his videos (no need to be polite with him, he would see it as weakness I think).

I've been watching these discussions here for years now, it's been a while since anybody really said anything new. For the record, I'd love to see and feel what you do in person to put all this blablabla in perspective. But it bugs me that I don't even know what you look like or have any idea of how you move or what your training entails.

On a more general note, the video I want to see from the aiki folks is not another push test or a bunch of followers falling over for their teachers. I want to see what happens when two people of real skill train with each other, when it's not a given who will end up staring at the ceiling. You claim to train that way Dan, that's what I'd like to see.

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=275174&postcount=251
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=274985&postcount=155
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=275023&postcount=173
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=275212&postcount=269
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=275274&postcount=311
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=275623&postcount=414

Now, no one did an in depth analysis of Chris's video. That being said, read my post, #155. While I wrote that prior to chris's video, the comments on comparing how most new people do that exercise, vs what Ark is trying to do mostly apply.

While a more educated eye may see how Ark is doing his movement, I think most can see how Chris is powering his movement. They don't look the same to me.

Now before anyone ask's where my videos are (they do exist on the QJ forum, but I am not on QJ), I've remodled a house, I just got married, and spent a week at an iaido seminar so not really much chance of filming a video with a partner. When I do a video though, I will try my best to have a partner who outweighs me by 50% or more as I do have some training partners who meet that criteria.

Tony Wagstaffe
06-14-2011, 10:22 AM
Tony,

When you've been given the chance to sample it for free, no money up front with no need for a full money back guarantee offer, a completely free 'no obligation to buy' trial then why would you refuse such an offer based on your comments above?

Seems like you've never answered that very point yet many have asked and noted it... You could have seen and felt first hand - way better than watching some fake video...

John, why would it be fake? If Dan is as honourable as you all say he is, then what is the problem with putting one up? Dan keeps saying a flat no, I keep saying please, I am trying to be a bit more open, but I am finding it strange as to why he will not? As I have said Graham has made some valid points that seem reasonable to think to me, I'm more blunt and abrasive for good reason as there is no history on the feller yet everybody I have come into contact with in the MA world whether good or bad, you can check up on..... With Dan a big zilch, other than he is a smithy of sorts or what his "followers" give over..... It's not enough for me, sorry.....
The MA world is precarious enough let alone "guru's" who claim such knowledge, is it surprising?

john.burn
06-14-2011, 10:51 AM
But what would you have lost in turning up and meeting the guy, a lot of people met up with him prior to the seminar in a park, with no charge for that either lol.

I didn't mean Dan's video would be fake btw, but that might be your interpretation of it. They keep saying unless you know you won't see these things in videos and in reality it might look exceptionally fake to the untrained eye - not that my eye is that well trained either I might add. Forget the video idea, I doubt it will happen anytime soon.

Maybe you should put some video up for people to critique with you clearly demonstrating isometrics / your take on what you think IP is? The one video is by your own admission something that was done off the cuff. Maybe you could demonstrate some very basic low level internal skills - should be easy to show shouldn't it? And no, I won't be doing it on here, this aint about me as I'm just a baby at this stuff but you've been doing it for years...

Back to my main point, why didn't you meet Dan when given the free offer? For me, if I hear someone has the goods in terms of IP then I know who to ask, I know Ikeda sensei and used to ask him, he put me onto a few others who put me onto a few others and you know what, never once did I care about what their background was in terms or art or grade - I took it from personal recommendations from people I'd gotten hold of and felt and thanks to that, met Mike and then latterly Dan. I'll hopefully get over and train with Bill Gleason sometime too over the next year or two as well. Grades don't impress me one bit, we've got way too many self appointed shihans and self graded people in this country it's almost an epidemic - shihan syndrome. Mike n Dan could be ungraded whitebelt yahoo's for all I care (sorry guys), doesn't mean they can't walk the walk. Ikeda sensei regularly gets on the mat wearing a whitebelt and tries new things and new arts to figure more of this stuff out and I'm sure he does it all and meets these people without insisting they put up a video ;).

chillzATL
06-14-2011, 10:52 AM
yet everybody I have come into contact with in the MA world whether good or bad, you can check up on..... With Dan a big zilch, other than he is a smithy of sorts or what his "followers" give over..... It's not enough for me, sorry.....
The MA world is precarious enough let alone "guru's" who claim such knowledge, is it surprising?

Tony,

what do you mean by "check up on". Sounds to me like just another way of saying "find people who will confirm or deny their skills", yet in Dan's case (and others), that seems to not be good enough for yee.

or "check up on" could also mean that you could get out and get your hands on them and see for yourself, which you also seem to have been offered an opportunity to do and declined.

what gives yo?

JO
06-14-2011, 11:18 AM
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=275174&postcount=251
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=274985&postcount=155
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=275023&postcount=173
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=275212&postcount=269
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=275274&postcount=311
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=275623&postcount=414

Now, no one did an in depth analysis of Chris's video. That being said, read my post, #155. While I wrote that prior to chris's video, the comments on comparing how most new people do that exercise, vs what Ark is trying to do mostly apply.

While a more educated eye may see how Ark is doing his movement, I think most can see how Chris is powering his movement. They don't look the same to me.

Now before anyone ask's where my videos are (they do exist on the QJ forum, but I am not on QJ), I've remodled a house, I just got married, and spent a week at an iaido seminar so not really much chance of filming a video with a partner. When I do a video though, I will try my best to have a partner who outweighs me by 50% or more as I do have some training partners who meet that criteria.

I remember your posts from that thread. It was interesting to give them a second look.

JO
06-14-2011, 11:25 AM
Jonathan, I think it bugs a lot of people if they were really honest, I just keep chipping away until I'm satisfied that the person is being upfront about who they are and what they do..... I just don't take it seriously from people who have trained seminars and come away with the "alleluia bit" (The I've discovered god or jesus has come into my life bit comes to mind) Please all Christians don't take that as being offensive I was brought up as a roman candle.....
I don't profess to have something fantastic or have something that no one else has and then market it on a forum without any previous...
I think it's only natural that one would check up first to buy something on the internet.... There are cases of people that have done so and have lost or wasted their money, but don't like to admit they have been taken for a mug, nothing new.....

I don't buy the argument that there are lots of guys out there holding back negative comments because they don't want to admit they have been taken. Complete frauds are usually quickly taken to account.

You calling others frauds without having seen their wares is not a good way of "chipping away", it is needlessly confrontational and will break bridges to people who may have more to offer than you, or I, know.

Truth is you come across not as someone keeping a open but sceptical mind, but more as someone who has made up his mind already.

Tony Wagstaffe
06-14-2011, 12:13 PM
I don't buy the argument that there are lots of guys out there holding back negative comments because they don't want to admit they have been taken. Complete frauds are usually quickly taken to account.

You calling others frauds without having seen their wares is not a good way of "chipping away", it is needlessly confrontational and will break bridges to people who may have more to offer than you, or I, know.

Truth is you come across not as someone keeping a open but sceptical mind, but more as someone who has made up his mind already.

And @ John

I've made my mind up about you's.....:) And all those who seem to be fans of Desperate Dan..... No one has explained what they have learned from DD or how it might have affected their "aikido" just about what may look fake if a video was put up? How do you know? I might even be quite complimentary. I like some of the stuff that Ark from Aunkai has shown in his video and one can see what he is doing. I have some stuff on my channel but it maybe that it's not up to your expectations. I keep my stuff simple and straight forward, nothing extra sensory or anything like that. I'm sure you have seen it all before. As for isometrics anyone can do them, anytime, anyplace. anywhere...... I call them the "martini" exercises. It isn't difficult once you get the hang of it. One can find tons of isometric exercises on youtube. You can even do them while sat in a car or watching the "box" how hard you make them or how you do them is entirely up to you, what ever suites your needs....
I was first introduced to it during my service with the R.N. and packed on muscle fairly quick. It was a good alternative to weight training as room on-board her majesties frigates at that time was at a premium ;)
By the ways I often lent my torn up worn out old blackbelt to my students when they had forgotten to bring theirs. I always asked them with a smile did they feel any different wearing it? Sometimes a blush, sometimes a sheepish grin..... then put on my spare white belt........ took ukemi for them and even bought the beers for them afterwards if they were skint.....

Just to point out that I believe I was in Nippon when DD was doing his seminar here in the UK so would not have been able to attend anyways, but there you go can't be in two places at once.....

hughrbeyer
06-14-2011, 12:30 PM
Now saying if internals are missing then my system has failed is like me saying if your system doesn't relate the principles spiritually to universal love, loving protection etc. then yours has failed.

Just to be clear, what I was saying is that IF you claim to be teaching the internals but most people doing your basic exercises aren't doing them with the internals THEN your system has failed. Not that everyone necessarily has to teach them or has to teach them the same way. That's an interesting point but not the one I was making.

I think I acknowledged that what Tohei was showing in your vid may have its own validity; it's just not what I'm pursuing right now.

The Numata Sensei video is here (http://youtu.be/O4jUbj1Dvkc).

sakumeikan
06-14-2011, 01:24 PM
Just to be clear, what I was saying is that IF you claim to be teaching the internals but most people doing your basic exercises aren't doing them with the internals THEN your system has failed. Not that everyone necessarily has to teach them or has to teach them the same way. That's an interesting point but not the one I was making.

I think I acknowledged that what Tohei was showing in your vid may have its own validity; it's just not what I'm pursuing right now.

The Numata Sensei video is here (http://youtu.be/O4jUbj1Dvkc).

Dear Hugh,
Watched the video. NumataSensei has nice posture.The Ukes I am not too sure of, I do not think they are making any real sort of 'attack.'They seem to me to be quite anxious to bite the dust , a bit
too compliant for my taste.
Cheers, Joe.

Mike Sigman
06-14-2011, 01:37 PM
Now before anyone ask's where my videos are (they do exist on the QJ forum, but I am not on QJ), I've remodled a house, I just got married, and spent a week at an iaido seminar so not really much chance of filming a video with a partner. When I do a video though, I will try my best to have a partner who outweighs me by 50% or more as I do have some training partners who meet that criteria.People posting videos is probably not enough, as witness some of the discussions about Chris Heins' mechanics as he videoed his take on some of the internal-strength common demo's.

Generally speaking, internal strength demonstrations are done without much movement; it's part of the idea that 'movement goes to stillness' and it demonstrates a level of body development/training. Take a look at this video, at the ten-second mark, of Ueshiba bouncing someone away with his thigh:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCjySZuVDkQ

Now, Ueshiba is obviously very old in that video and the actual mechanics of the demo can be seen even by the uninitiated to some degree. I prefer to do a lot of videos with even more obvious exaggeration, a lot of times, so let's imagine 3 levels of that same demonstration (assuming equally overly-cooperative students, just as Ueshiba used): (1.) me doing a very slow and exaggerated bounce, (2.) Ueshiba doing a moderately-obvious demonstration, (3.) Wang Xiangzhai doing a Yiquan version where barely a quiver is seen. The point is that without the person in the video doing some verbal description to accompany the video, there's all sorts of room for the viewers to come up with their own interpretations (right or wrong) of what they saw on the film.

Look at the other side of it.... you can show an explicit film of a demonstration to someone who knows little/nothing and without the helpful description of the mechanics, they can go many years with no development other than the ability to say "that version doesn't look like the other version".

Just a side note on something else, BTW..... "Strength" and "Qi/Ki" always go hand in hand. If someone has great strength they have strong qi/ki. "Internal strength" is about a certain way of using qi/ki, but it is not the only way that qi/ki is expressed. Your local weight-lifter has a lot of ki/qi, but he may never have heard of internal strength and may not be able to demonstrate a bit of internal strength.

FWIW

Mike Sigman

jester
06-14-2011, 01:45 PM
Take a look at this video, at the ten-second mark, of Ueshiba bouncing someone away with his thigh:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCjySZuVDkQ

I couldn't get past the Sith Lightning (without the lightning) Technique at the beginning! :p

Tony Wagstaffe
06-14-2011, 02:07 PM
Dear Hugh,
Watched the video. NumataSensei has nice posture.The Ukes I am not too sure of, I do not think they are making any real sort of 'attack.'They seem to me to be quite anxious to bite the dust , a bit
too compliant for my taste.
Cheers, Joe.

Ditto....

Hellis
06-14-2011, 02:41 PM
Dear Hugh,
Watched the video. NumataSensei has nice posture.The Ukes I am not too sure of, I do not think they are making any real sort of 'attack.'They seem to me to be quite anxious to bite the dust , a bit
too compliant for my taste.
Cheers, Joe.

Joe

I wanna uke like that, at my age I need all the help I can get :)

Henry Ellis
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/

Gerardo Torres
06-14-2011, 02:45 PM
But what would you have lost in turning up and meeting the guy, a lot of people met up with him prior to the seminar in a park, with no charge for that either lol.

I didn't mean Dan's video would be fake btw, but that might be your interpretation of it. They keep saying unless you know you won't see these things in videos and in reality it might look exceptionally fake to the untrained eye - not that my eye is that well trained either I might add. Forget the video idea, I doubt it will happen anytime soon.

Maybe you should put some video up for people to critique with you clearly demonstrating isometrics / your take on what you think IP is? The one video is by your own admission something that was done off the cuff. Maybe you could demonstrate some very basic low level internal skills - should be easy to show shouldn't it? And no, I won't be doing it on here, this aint about me as I'm just a baby at this stuff but you've been doing it for years...

Back to my main point, why didn't you meet Dan when given the free offer? For me, if I hear someone has the goods in terms of IP then I know who to ask, I know Ikeda sensei and used to ask him, he put me onto a few others who put me onto a few others and you know what, never once did I care about what their background was in terms or art or grade - I took it from personal recommendations from people I'd gotten hold of and felt and thanks to that, met Mike and then latterly Dan. I'll hopefully get over and train with Bill Gleason sometime too over the next year or two as well. Grades don't impress me one bit, we've got way too many self appointed shihans and self graded people in this country it's almost an epidemic - shihan syndrome. Mike n Dan could be ungraded whitebelt yahoo's for all I care (sorry guys), doesn't mean they can't walk the walk. Ikeda sensei regularly gets on the mat wearing a whitebelt and tries new things and new arts to figure more of this stuff out and I'm sure he does it all and meets these people without insisting they put up a video ;).
Hi John,

Good post. I followed the same approach as you when going out to meet people outside the art: If Ikeda, who has skills and experience far beyond mine, recommends this teacher outside the art, who am I to doubt him? I followed similar recommendations from other 5th, 6th and 7th dan teachers and Shihan, some of them I don't even know personally but I respect their experience and reputation. I know my place, my limitations, and I'm not as self-centered or rude as to look past all these recommendations, research and written evidence, and instead ask for some silly video for no other reason than self-gratification.

People going out searching for superior skills based on recommendations and reviews from fellow artists who've had direct experience with those skills -- isn't that how it has worked for centuries? Imagine Yagyu staying home doing the same thing all his life instead of going out to meet Kamiizumi (who's teacher was a quite mysterious figure I believe -- but did it matter once swords were crossed?). Or imagine Ueshiba never touching hands with Takeda, instead looking at some Lumière film and spreading rumors that "he already did that" or "it's all fake" or that Takeda was "a con artist" based on nothing but especulation. With that attitude there would be no martial arts today. Anyway, not that I'm directly comparing us to the greats or their situations but at least we should try to foster the same idea behind musa shugyo and the natural curiosity and aspirations that go with the process -- the whole Internet/video/arm-chairing culture is killing it...

As for the video requests, it's a clear case of the oft-repeated "people not knowing what they don't know". A video without a proper detailed explanation and eventual hands-on is not going to be much help; it's actually going to make it worse for the uninformed. I see a lot of people posting their aikido videos. Now, I'm a complete beginner when it comes to efficient martial movement, yet with the tiny bit of information I have I can still see the nage in these videos (sometimes very highly-ranked) continuously going out of balance even when throwing a ridiculously compliant uke who's sometimes much lighter than the nage. What I see is that these nage cannot even stand properly on two feet in this too-easy scenario, much less move efficiently, and yet they continuously lecture online about real "martial" aikido, self-defense, aiki/IP, etc. Worse yet, such is their delusion that they look at videos of Akuzawa, Gleason or Ikeda and say that they are doing the same thing or similar, and know this aiki/IP stuff already. No. Not even close, and they cannot see it. In fact they will never see it until they go out and meet somebody who can show them where they are failing. I've been there, done that. All it takes is a few hours with a high-level skills teacher and things will become pretty clear pretty soon… but for some people the possibility of learning that they're not as good as they thought they were is terrifying (all those years invested, all those teachers and lineages on the line...).

As somebody who spends a lot of his vacation time and disposable income chasing these sort of opportunities :) , I find this fear of challenging our outlook utterly bizarre. In fact the history of martial arts has been written by people who at some point or another had their ego crushed, their belief system shatterd, and had to start anew (Ueshiba, for one), so why avoid this learning possibility? I'm so happy I grew up with teachers who also knew their limitations and encouraged us to go be inquisitive and train with as many teachers as possible no matter the art or organization, and never raised us to hold anybody's word as ultimate truth.

Btw if somebody ever asked me to post any videos of myself my response would be: I suck! :D Why me, when we have all these wonderful videos of Ueshiba, Shioda, etc. Now, on to a final point: we have all these videos of these high exponents, did they help anybody really understand what these men were doing? Did we get it from looking at videos? Can all these people who ask for videos explain what Ueshiba, Shioda, et al were doing based on these videos? ;)

graham christian
06-14-2011, 03:09 PM
Just to be clear, what I was saying is that IF you claim to be teaching the internals but most people doing your basic exercises aren't doing them with the internals THEN your system has failed. Not that everyone necessarily has to teach them or has to teach them the same way. That's an interesting point but not the one I was making.

I think I acknowledged that what Tohei was showing in your vid may have its own validity; it's just not what I'm pursuing right now.

The Numata Sensei video is here (http://youtu.be/O4jUbj1Dvkc).

Watched the video and recognised it. Liked his posture and his calmness and his skill. Liked his ability to adapt to the different uke's with a varied array of techniques and motions.

Uke's? Well it does show they are committing themselves but it appears to me they are very unstable. Just my view.

Regards.G.

Tony Wagstaffe
06-14-2011, 03:17 PM
Hi John,

Good post. I followed the same approach as you when going out to meet people outside the art: If Ikeda, who has skills and experience far beyond mine, recommends this teacher outside the art, who am I to doubt him? I followed similar recommendations from other 5th, 6th and 7th dan teachers and Shihan, some of them I don't even know personally but I respect their experience and reputation. I know my place, my limitations, and I'm not as self-centered or rude as to look past all these recommendations, research and written evidence, and instead ask for some silly video for no other reason than self-gratification.

People going out searching for superior skills based on recommendations and reviews from fellow artists who've had direct experience with those skills -- isn't that how it has worked for centuries? Imagine Yagyu staying home doing the same thing all his life instead of going out to meet Kamiizumi (who's teacher was a quite mysterious figure I believe -- but did it matter once swords were crossed?). Or imagine Ueshiba never touching hands with Takeda, instead looking at some Lumière film and spreading rumors that "he already did that" or "it's all fake" or that Takeda was "a con artist" based on nothing but especulation. With that attitude there would be no martial arts today. Anyway, not that I'm directly comparing us to the greats or their situations but at least we should try to foster the same idea behind musa shugyo and the natural curiosity and aspirations that go with the process -- the whole Internet/video/arm-chairing culture is killing it...

As for the video requests, it's a clear case of the oft-repeated "people not knowing what they don't know". A video without a proper detailed explanation and eventual hands-on is not going to be much help; it's actually going to make it worse for the uninformed. I see a lot of people posting their aikido videos. Now, I'm a complete beginner when it comes to efficient martial movement, yet with the tiny bit of information I have I can still see the nage in these videos (sometimes very highly-ranked) continuously going out of balance even when throwing a ridiculously compliant uke who's sometimes much lighter than the nage. What I see is that these nage cannot even stand properly on two feet in this too-easy scenario, much less move efficiently, and yet they continuously lecture online about real "martial" aikido, self-defense, aiki/IP, etc. Worse yet, such is their delusion that they look at videos of Akuzawa, Gleason or Ikeda and say that they are doing the same thing or similar, and know this aiki/IP stuff already. No. Not even close, and they cannot see it. In fact they will never see it until they go out and meet somebody who can show them where they are failing. I've been there, done that. All it takes is a few hours with a high-level skills teacher and things will become pretty clear pretty soon… but for some people the possibility of learning that they're not as good as they thought they were is terrifying (all those years invested, all those teachers and lineages on the line...).

As somebody who spends a lot of his vacation time and disposable income chasing these sort of opportunities :) , I find this fear of challenging our outlook utterly bizarre. In fact the history of martial arts has been written by people who at some point or another had their ego crushed, their belief system shatterd, and had to start anew (Ueshiba, for one), so why avoid this learning possibility? I'm so happy I grew up with teachers who also knew their limitations and encouraged us to go be inquisitive and train with as many teachers as possible no matter the art or organization, and never raised us to hold anybody's word as ultimate truth.

Btw if somebody ever asked me to post any videos of myself my response would be: I suck! :D Why me, when we have all these wonderful videos of Ueshiba, Shioda, etc. Now, on to a final point: we have all these videos of these high exponents, did they help anybody really understand what these men were doing? Did we get it from looking at videos? Can all these people who ask for videos explain what Ueshiba, Shioda, et al were doing based on these videos? ;)

They have certainly helped many, me included.....:straightf not as a beginner but as a student of many years. So nothing wrong with video as long as it's backed up by proper instruction.....

Tony Wagstaffe
06-14-2011, 03:18 PM
People posting videos is probably not enough, as witness some of the discussions about Chris Heins' mechanics as he videoed his take on some of the internal-strength common demo's.

Generally speaking, internal strength demonstrations are done without much movement; it's part of the idea that 'movement goes to stillness' and it demonstrates a level of body development/training. Take a look at this video, at the ten-second mark, of Ueshiba bouncing someone away with his thigh:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCjySZuVDkQ

Now, Ueshiba is obviously very old in that video and the actual mechanics of the demo can be seen even by the uninitiated to some degree. I prefer to do a lot of videos with even more obvious exaggeration, a lot of times, so let's imagine 3 levels of that same demonstration (assuming equally overly-cooperative students, just as Ueshiba used): (1.) me doing a very slow and exaggerated bounce, (2.) Ueshiba doing a moderately-obvious demonstration, (3.) Wang Xiangzhai doing a Yiquan version where barely a quiver is seen. The point is that without the person in the video doing some verbal description to accompany the video, there's all sorts of room for the viewers to come up with their own interpretations (right or wrong) of what they saw on the film.

Look at the other side of it.... you can show an explicit film of a demonstration to someone who knows little/nothing and without the helpful description of the mechanics, they can go many years with no development other than the ability to say "that version doesn't look like the other version".

Just a side note on something else, BTW..... "Strength" and "Qi/Ki" always go hand in hand. If someone has great strength they have strong qi/ki. "Internal strength" is about a certain way of using qi/ki, but it is not the only way that qi/ki is expressed. Your local weight-lifter has a lot of ki/qi, but he may never have heard of internal strength and may not be able to demonstrate a bit of internal strength.

FWIW

Mike Sigman

My experience has told me otherwise.....

Tony Wagstaffe
06-14-2011, 03:22 PM
I don't buy the argument that there are lots of guys out there holding back negative comments because they don't want to admit they have been taken. Complete frauds are usually quickly taken to account.

You calling others frauds without having seen their wares is not a good way of "chipping away", it is needlessly confrontational and will break bridges to people who may have more to offer than you, or I, know.

Truth is you come across not as someone keeping a open but sceptical mind, but more as someone who has made up his mind already.

Clever frauds are not.....

Tony Wagstaffe
06-14-2011, 03:27 PM
Tony,

what do you mean by "check up on". Sounds to me like just another way of saying "find people who will confirm or deny their skills", yet in Dan's case (and others), that seems to not be good enough for yee.

or "check up on" could also mean that you could get out and get your hands on them and see for yourself, which you also seem to have been offered an opportunity to do and declined.

what gives yo?

It means that the guy has credentials given to him by a recognised teacher well known throughout the MA world who is known to be genuine. They actually do exist even if not in the states where Macdonalds was born and has spread world wide?

Tony Wagstaffe
06-14-2011, 03:33 PM
I thought it was because you didn't have a dojo any more? :confused:

FWIW I think that were Dan to post a video, regardless of it's content, you'd be preprepared with your "been there/done that" attitude. You're welcome to your opinions but I think that the manner in which you voice them is disingenuous.

You claim to only use plain speaking and express the need for a "put up or shut up" attitude that includes testing if stuff works; so why didn't you take up Dan's offer to go and see for free and "test" him? You wouldn't shell out because it was expensive, in terms of the number of people and the time involved I don't actually think it was so expensive after all a good 12+ hours for the money. Yes I expect you'll redirect this question by asking why not free for all etc etc... please don't bother unless you want to answer the asked question first.

I'll freely admit that I was skeptical, I attended the seminar and if I had come away feeling that Dan was anything less than genuine, friendly and warm in his attitude or that he was "selling snake oil" or some such scam to gull folk out of their hard earned money I can assure you that I would be on here with a big flag waving to let people know to avoid him; I didn't because that's not the impression I came away with, I also didn't come on here to "big him up" because I don't think he needs us to do that, the only reason I decided to post is because I want to position myself (silence being assent) in opposition to the manner in which you comment and approach the debate(s).

You're welcome to your opinions but they'd come across as more worthwhile if they were based on experience and not just speculation.

Regards
Rich

Aikikai aikido? Shodokan, Yoshinkan, Iwama, what do you do?

Tony Wagstaffe
06-14-2011, 03:46 PM
But what would you have lost in turning up and meeting the guy, a lot of people met up with him prior to the seminar in a park, with no charge for that either lol.

I didn't mean Dan's video would be fake btw, but that might be your interpretation of it. They keep saying unless you know you won't see these things in videos and in reality it might look exceptionally fake to the untrained eye - not that my eye is that well trained either I might add. Forget the video idea, I doubt it will happen anytime soon.

Maybe you should put some video up for people to critique with you clearly demonstrating isometrics / your take on what you think IP is? The one video is by your own admission something that was done off the cuff. Maybe you could demonstrate some very basic low level internal skills - should be easy to show shouldn't it? And no, I won't be doing it on here, this aint about me as I'm just a baby at this stuff but you've been doing it for years...

Back to my main point, why didn't you meet Dan when given the free offer? For me, if I hear someone has the goods in terms of IP then I know who to ask, I know Ikeda sensei and used to ask him, he put me onto a few others who put me onto a few others and you know what, never once did I care about what their background was in terms or art or grade - I took it from personal recommendations from people I'd gotten hold of and felt and thanks to that, met Mike and then latterly Dan. I'll hopefully get over and train with Bill Gleason sometime too over the next year or two as well. Grades don't impress me one bit, we've got way too many self appointed shihans and self graded people in this country it's almost an epidemic - shihan syndrome. Mike n Dan could be ungraded whitebelt yahoo's for all I care (sorry guys), doesn't mean they can't walk the walk. Ikeda sensei regularly gets on the mat wearing a whitebelt and tries new things and new arts to figure more of this stuff out and I'm sure he does it all and meets these people without insisting they put up a video ;).

In a park John? Why a park? Unless you are doing Taichi or walking the dog? Or maybe weapons work?And yes you are right about the self anointed ones. Personally I don't rate many of the names you adhere to as I have never seen them actually up against real resistance, even on video so I don't rate anyone until I see it....
Regards
T

Tony Wagstaffe
06-14-2011, 03:52 PM
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=275174&postcount=251
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=274985&postcount=155
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=275023&postcount=173
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=275212&postcount=269
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=275274&postcount=311
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=275623&postcount=414

Now, no one did an in depth analysis of Chris's video. That being said, read my post, #155. While I wrote that prior to chris's video, the comments on comparing how most new people do that exercise, vs what Ark is trying to do mostly apply.

While a more educated eye may see how Ark is doing his movement, I think most can see how Chris is powering his movement. They don't look the same to me.

Now before anyone ask's where my videos are (they do exist on the QJ forum, but I am not on QJ), I've remodled a house, I just got married, and spent a week at an iaido seminar so not really much chance of filming a video with a partner. When I do a video though, I will try my best to have a partner who outweighs me by 50% or more as I do have some training partners who meet that criteria.

That will be interesting.....

Chris Li
06-14-2011, 03:54 PM
It means that the guy has credentials given to him by a recognised teacher well known throughout the MA world who is known to be genuine. They actually do exist even if not in the states where Macdonalds was born and has spread world wide?

Well, I've got all that - but you didn't listen to me :).

Best,

Chris

graham christian
06-14-2011, 04:00 PM
Just to be clear, what I was saying is that IF you claim to be teaching the internals but most people doing your basic exercises aren't doing them with the internals THEN your system has failed. Not that everyone necessarily has to teach them or has to teach them the same way. That's an interesting point but not the one I was making.

I think I acknowledged that what Tohei was showing in your vid may have its own validity; it's just not what I'm pursuing right now.

The Numata Sensei video is here (http://youtu.be/O4jUbj1Dvkc).

Hugh. I've given my opinion on that video and to understand more I would have to hear Numatas explanation of it, no one else's. I like the Gleason ones better as he is explaining what he is doing.

Some of us have been around a long time and have come across many teachers and exponents of various arts and indeed ways of Ki. That's what some folks seem to forget or not take into account.

So far what I've seen and heard explained I understand and recognise.(not under the terms given though)

I show them to students who come and say this person did this and this person did that. I get students to feel it and to learn to do it but I break it into two categories. Tricks and useful applications.

Some I say good now you can do that you can see why it's not part of my Aikido. Oh, by the way, also how to what you would call counter those things and what I would call harmonize with them.

Regards.G.

Tony Wagstaffe
06-14-2011, 04:06 PM
Well, I've got all that - but you didn't listen to me :).

Best,

Chris

Nor you me.....

mathewjgano
06-14-2011, 04:19 PM
No one has explained what they have learned from DD or how it might have affected their "aikido" just about what may look fake if a video was put up?
That's not true. I've read a few folks describing a fair amount. Josh Philipson posted some very nice descriptions a little while back, if I recall correctly. If I had more exposure than I did, I'd have commented more. Perhaps down the line. Suffice to say I think a key quality to Dan's approach is "hands on." I think it's key to why so many people feel like he has given them a whole new outlook on their training. Looking around Aikiweb you can see a number of highly experienced people who have found benefit to training with Dan. I think the quality issue is somewhat moot. Whatever he does, he's good at it and can help make other people better at it than they were. I got the impression that Dan's teaching method was largely very individualized (more "hands on"). Also, he was training as much as we were, if not more.
I hear you on your BS detector, Tony. I believe I made a comment a while back that it sometimes reads like an infomercial. I think Dan's enthusiasm is catchy and the enjoyment almost everyone seems to get from their training with him is simply shining through. I have a strong skeptical side, but Dan seems to be onto something good for budo practice. Is it exclusive to him? Of course not. The same is true for the others in the "IT" crowd. It's nothing (or very little) new. These people just have a good understanding of specifics that, according to many, are often (for a variety of reasons) overlooked or under trained.
My beginner's 2 bits.
Matt

Tony Wagstaffe
06-14-2011, 04:37 PM
Apparently because going to a seminar and coming back with any first hand experience leaves you less qualified to discuss the subject (which in this case was not teaching us how to do aikido) due to the delusions you acquire whilst attending; no one has the ability to see through a con or if they do they wouldn't talk about it because everyone is too frightened of what people might think.

It's much clearer now; less exposure = greater knowledge.

Not frightened, embarrased....
Less exposure more cultish.... greater knowledge by going about it oneself and learning from others who are not "secretive". Gullible prefer a good mystery as its irresistible or for a reason which nobody seems to understand because they don't = must have it before all the others as its new and nobody else has it yet, got to have it or I'm stuffed without it as my image is on the line, oh shit better go and do it..... got my "badge" as it was issued by the Guru, I'm "safe" cause others like me have done it to..... Phew!

If a good film comes on at the cinema like the latest Pirates of the Caribbean mark 4 everybody goes to it because we know it's going to be good entertainment, not because it's Jonny Debt (he has none at present) but because of all the other popular's in the cast plus its raw entertainment aspect. We know that Jonny is an actor and quite good in most peoples eyes, but supposing its an unknown actor would we we all go to watch it and pay good money, I doubt it.... Part of the reason of why it became popular was of it's previews and it worked and has become a cult almost .
Even more so if you are self employed cabbie, would you still take time off losing a day's earnings to go and see a film in London, when you can see it in your own home in Winchester for a fraction of the price in the evening before going out to work? I know what I would do.....

Dave de Vos
06-14-2011, 04:37 PM
I'm just a beginner with this stuff but what understand from it is that you build and use you body in a different way.

It's not the muscles that you train, but the connective tissues. And that is a slow process, because connective tissue develops much slower than muscle tissue. The exercises are not the same as exercises that build muscle strenght.

And then there is another challenge. How to use this kind of body in a martial way, like in aikido, judo, karate, mma, bjj or whatever.

It takes a lot of time and practise to achieve both of these goals.

Dave de Vos
06-14-2011, 05:13 PM
Some additions:

Together with rewiring the body, you have to rewire the mind in order to rewire the body and to use the rewired body. Also a big challenge.

And about how to use this rewired body in aikido, you have to find it out for yourself mostly as neither Dan nor Mike claim to be aikido teachers.

graham christian
06-14-2011, 06:15 PM
Thanks for that view Dave.

Regards.G.

hughrbeyer
06-14-2011, 11:15 PM
[Re Numata Sensei's video]
The Ukes I am not too sure of, I do not think they are making any real sort of 'attack.' They seem to me to be quite anxious to bite the dust , a bit too compliant for my taste.
Uke's? Well it does show they are committing themselves but it appears to me they are very unstable.

This is an interesting test case, since none of us commenting have trained with Numata Sensei in person. It's all about what you can see, which, I'm guessing, is a reflection of our different experience.

What I see is that yes, the ukes tank quickly. Because they're unstable. Because Numata takes their balance so quickly and with so little external movement that you don't see it. You just see the result.

hughrbeyer
06-14-2011, 11:27 PM
Some I say good now you can do that you can see why it's not part of my Aikido.

Which brings us back to the question of why we're doing aikido in the first place.

You, as I understand it, study the Art of Peace which you manifest through your particular non-confrontational approach.

I'm all for the Art of Peace. Where we may differ is that I don't think you can pursue that Art if what you're doing isn't martially valid. The Sword that Gives Life is first and foremost a sharp sword.

sakumeikan
06-15-2011, 01:26 AM
[Re Numata Sensei's video]

This is an interesting test case, since none of us commenting have trained with Numata Sensei in person. It's all about what you can see, which, I'm guessing, is a reflection of our different experience.

What I see is that yes, the ukes tank quickly. Because they're unstable. Because Numata takes their balance so quickly and with so little external movement that you don't see it. You just see the result.

Dear Hugh,
How can you unbalance a Uke with a stable posture if you as Tori do not make contact with him/her? There is a distinct lack of contact seen in the Numata Sensei vid.Why would anyone fall over
if their balance was not broken?Try this type of movement on a judoka and you would get a rude awakening.Have you ever been gripped by a judoka , I have , I trained in Judo for 13 years, and no judoka worth his salt would be thrown from some of the body movement shown.I appreciate it was a demo, but at times I ask myself , do these demos do more harm than good to the already tarnished image of Aikido?In some areas Aikidoka are viewed with disdain and classed as weak, dancers and chancers.Some Aikidoka fit this description but some are real Martial Artists.
So lets get a bit of reality into this forum.I want to see a MARTIAL ART not a vid which looks like a rehearsal for a Broadway dance show.
Cheers, Joe.

Ps I expect you might say Numata Sensei is using internal skills/leading the Uke s Ki.Hope you can come up with a answer other than these examples.

sakumeikan
06-15-2011, 01:37 AM
Which brings us back to the question of why we're doing aikido in the first place.

You, as I understand it, study the Art of Peace which you manifest through your particular non-confrontational approach.

I'm all for the Art of Peace. Where we may differ is that I don't think you can pursue that Art if what you're doing isn't martially valid. The Sword that Gives Life is first and foremost a sharp sword.

Dear Hugh,
Before you can be benevolent and spare people from pain /punishment/retribution you have to be in a position whereby you have the power to exercise your authority to inflict punishment in the first place.
In society criminals would laugh out loud if the courts
just gave them a slap on the wrist and told these guys, Poor Lad, you have been a naughty boy , robbing old aged people, go home and take you cannabis.Kidding aside his is how it is in the U.K.
At least the Yanks dish out long prison sentences.
So I agree with you here that the sword has to be sharp enough to execute someone, but hopefully /ideally the sword should wherever possible remain in its scabbard.
Cheers, Joe.

mrlizard123
06-15-2011, 03:07 AM
Aikikai aikido? Shodokan, Yoshinkan, Iwama, what do you do?
This is relevant because...?

Not frightened, embarrased....
Less exposure more cultish.... greater knowledge by going about it oneself and learning from others who are not "secretive". Gullible prefer a good mystery as its irresistible or for a reason which nobody seems to understand because they don't = must have it before all the others as its new and nobody else has it yet, got to have it or I'm stuffed without it as my image is on the line, oh shit better go and do it..... got my "badge" as it was issued by the Guru, I'm "safe" cause others like me have done it to..... Phew!

If a good film comes on at the cinema like the latest Pirates of the Caribbean mark 4 everybody goes to it because we know it's going to be good entertainment, not because it's Jonny Debt (he has none at present) but because of all the other popular's in the cast plus its raw entertainment aspect. We know that Jonny is an actor and quite good in most peoples eyes, but supposing its an unknown actor would we we all go to watch it and pay good money, I doubt it.... Part of the reason of why it became popular was of it's previews and it worked and has become a cult almost .

Let me get this clear... taking the pieces from your argument you're saying that; less exposure = more cultish... so a better approach is more like Johnny Depp and the Pirates of the Caribbean franchise, which became popular because of the previews, and became a cult almost; doesn't this seem bass ackwards to you? Dan's lack of videos make it cultish but he should be like Johnny Depp and have a cult with video previews? I think you meandered off the trail a mite there.

With regards to the rambling nonsense about badges and image and competing to get it before the "others" get it; I freely admit and tell people I train with and who train with me that I don't know everything, am still working to improve my skills in areas where I do know things and am always looking to improve rather than try to rest upon some imagined laurels and stagnate by assuming/believing I know it all; I guess that's where we differ...

I was having a nose at your videos on youtube (you're user "towag" right? otherwise I was watching some other guy) and thought it was interesting the way you have a distinction between your kata and "applied" videos; is this what you mean by testing things under pressure with an uke who's giving you something real to work with?

Since this thread is indeed getting to be something of a Pirates of the Caribbean 5 I'm going to leave this as my last response to you, until there is some fresh material; I personally tend to watch films on recommendations mainly and avoid watching trailers on the whole since they often spoil a good movie by picking out only the best bits and leave the viewer with an incomplete or incorrect impression of what the movie will be like; did you pick out the best bits in your "previews"?

Tony Wagstaffe
06-15-2011, 05:56 AM
This is relevant because...?

Let me get this clear... taking the pieces from your argument you're saying that; less exposure = more cultish... so a better approach is more like Johnny Depp and the Pirates of the Caribbean franchise, which became popular because of the previews, and became a cult almost; doesn't this seem bass ackwards to you? Dan's lack of videos make it cultish but he should be like Johnny Depp and have a cult with video previews? I think you meandered off the trail a mite there.

With regards to the rambling nonsense about badges and image and competing to get it before the "others" get it; I freely admit and tell people I train with and who train with me that I don't know everything, am still working to improve my skills in areas where I do know things and am always looking to improve rather than try to rest upon some imagined laurels and stagnate by assuming/believing I know it all; I guess that's where we differ...

I was having a nose at your videos on youtube (you're user "towag" right? otherwise I was watching some other guy) and thought it was interesting the way you have a distinction between your kata and "applied" videos; is this what you mean by testing things under pressure with an uke who's giving you something real to work with?

Since this thread is indeed getting to be something of a Pirates of the Caribbean 5 I'm going to leave this as my last response to you, until there is some fresh material; I personally tend to watch films on recommendations mainly and avoid watching trailers on the whole since they often spoil a good movie by picking out only the best bits and leave the viewer with an incomplete or incorrect impression of what the movie will be like; did you pick out the best bits in your "previews"?

Sorry I'm not so eloquent as you, I was just trying to make an analogy that's all. If it "looks" good you are more likely to go see it, right? If it isn't you have wasted your dosh. Common sense?
If you feel that you have something missing in your aikido, are a fan of Dan, fine, go for it, fill yer boots, I just don't buy it that's all.
I'm sure many still find it strange that we do not know his past history, his teachers and so forth and how he came about his theories and practice only his say-so.
Going by some of his comments on other posts, I have my suspicions that's all.... It's now a closed chapter. Please just put me on your ignore list, me, I have nothing of worth to say, take care Rich

Tony Wagstaffe
06-15-2011, 06:07 AM
Dear Hugh,
How can you unbalance a Uke with a stable posture if you as Tori do not make contact with him/her? There is a distinct lack of contact seen in the Numata Sensei vid.Why would anyone fall over
if their balance was not broken?Try this type of movement on a judoka and you would get a rude awakening.Have you ever been gripped by a judoka , I have , I trained in Judo for 13 years, and no judoka worth his salt would be thrown from some of the body movement shown.I appreciate it was a demo, but at times I ask myself , do these demos do more harm than good to the already tarnished image of Aikido?In some areas Aikidoka are viewed with disdain and classed as weak, dancers and chancers.Some Aikidoka fit this description but some are real Martial Artists.
So lets get a bit of reality into this forum.I want to see a MARTIAL ART not a vid which looks like a rehearsal for a Broadway dance show.
Cheers, Joe.

Ps I expect you might say Numata Sensei is using internal skills/leading the Uke s Ki.Hope you can come up with a answer other than these examples.

Of course Joe can't you see "it" ? :hypno:

graham christian
06-15-2011, 10:38 AM
Which brings us back to the question of why we're doing aikido in the first place.

You, as I understand it, study the Art of Peace which you manifest through your particular non-confrontational approach.

I'm all for the Art of Peace. Where we may differ is that I don't think you can pursue that Art if what you're doing isn't martially valid. The Sword that Gives Life is first and foremost a sharp sword.

Yes Hugh I do study the art of peace.

Where we differ is probably on many things including 'martial'

The sword of life life quote? I guarantee we differ on it's meaning.

Implications of not martially valid just shows me anothers ignorance, lack of understanding.

Regards.G.

lbb
06-15-2011, 10:46 AM
Implications of not martially valid just shows me anothers ignorance, lack of understanding.

Isn't that just a bit too glibly dismissive, Graham? Surely if something is martially valid, this can be demonstrated, no? It's a copout to say, "Oh, you're just ignorant" -- if something is martially valid, can't that be demonstrated?

graham christian
06-15-2011, 11:03 AM
Isn't that just a bit too glibly dismissive, Graham? Surely if something is martially valid, this can be demonstrated, no? It's a copout to say, "Oh, you're just ignorant" -- if something is martially valid, can't that be demonstrated?

Of course it can Mary. If a person can't see that something is then they are in for a nasty shock wouldn't you say?

People may always ask for proof, go on prove it! You may end up as some kind of puppet show.

So no it's not a cop out it's an abrupt statement.

Regards.G.

Hellis
06-15-2011, 11:30 AM
Dear Hugh,
How can you unbalance a Uke with a stable posture if you as Tori do not make contact with him/her? There is a distinct lack of contact seen in the Numata Sensei vid.Why would anyone fall over
if their balance was not broken?Try this type of movement on a judoka and you would get a rude awakening.Have you ever been gripped by a judoka , I have , I trained in Judo for 13 years, and no judoka worth his salt would be thrown from some of the body movement shown.I appreciate it was a demo, but at times I ask myself , do these demos do more harm than good to the already tarnished image of Aikido?In some areas Aikidoka are viewed with disdain and classed as weak, dancers and chancers.Some Aikidoka fit this description but some are real Martial Artists.
So lets get a bit of reality into this forum.I want to see a MARTIAL ART not a vid which looks like a rehearsal for a Broadway dance show.
Cheers, Joe.

Ps I expect you might say Numata Sensei is using internal skills/leading the Uke s Ki.Hope you can come up with a answer other than these examples.

Joe

I can't agree more.
I reckon if Numata Sensei had stepped off the mat those guys would have just carried on with their ukemi exercise.

How come we never see Chiba Sensei do that stuff :D

Henry Ellis

http://rik-ellis.blogspot.com/

john.burn
06-15-2011, 11:39 AM
In a park John? Why a park? Unless you are doing Taichi or walking the dog? Or maybe weapons work?And yes you are right about the self anointed ones. Personally I don't rate many of the names you adhere to as I have never seen them actually up against real resistance, even on video so I don't rate anyone until I see it....
Regards
T

Tony, why not in a park? This stuff at the level most of the people on here are at is all about very basic body movement so... why not in a park? Really? You use that as an argument, my god, I think you've lost the plot completely.

As for you not rating any of the names I adhere to then that just show's you to be completely clueless in your answers to people on here - there is only person I generally personally mention in terms of Aikido on here and to quote you elsewhere on this thread or on the other one you asked who he was so you have no idea who he is yet you don't rate him? :crazy: :eek: :rolleyes: Hahaha tells me everything I need to know.

Barking mad!

Tony Wagstaffe
06-15-2011, 12:00 PM
Tony, why not in a park? This stuff at the level most of the people on here are at is all about very basic body movement so... why not in a park? Really? You use that as an argument, my god, I think you've lost the plot completely.

As for you not rating any of the names I adhere to then that just show's you to be completely clueless in your answers to people on here - there is only person I generally personally mention in terms of Aikido on here and to quote you elsewhere on this thread or on the other one you asked who he was so you have no idea who he is yet you don't rate him? :crazy: :eek: :rolleyes: Hahaha tells me everything I need to know.

Barking mad!

Not for me John, when you mentioned a park I thought it was for other purposes fitting your requirements, sorry.....;) How many people do you know in The T/S world? Humans are only humans after all, none are godlike or anything else, maybe skilful in kata and collusive "aikido" and the like, but that remains to be seen, remember I'm a heretic, I don't really practice "aikido"

john.burn
06-15-2011, 12:00 PM
Joe

I can't agree more.
I reckon if Numata Sensei had stepped off the mat those guys would have just carried on with their ukemi exercise.

How come we never see Chiba Sensei do that stuff :D

Henry Ellis

http://rik-ellis.blogspot.com/

Hi Henry,

Well... I'm guessing he has done that in the past, there's always exceptions to every rule, I have watched many clips of him and whilst I'm not for a second saying I don't think he can look after himself I don't think the uke's are always resisting that much and they're usually doing the very stylized movements you get from people who study with him (I'm not criticizing here, just saying what I see).

One of his favourite teachers was Kuroiwa sensei I believe and when he was asked about O'Sensei and the jo trick he said something like if your teacher tells you you can't push him over what are you going to do... Hmmmm, so when O Sensei was getting on are you really telling me Chiba sensei would have not tanked the ukemi? Kuroiwa was a well known fighter and if he did it then I'm sure Chiba would have too. There's a time and a place for all things.

Admittedly, if I was taking ukemi for Chiba sensei I'm damn sure I wouldn't be fighting the guy :D

Didn't Dan have a run in with Chiba sensei? Maybe you should ask about that as you guys are all accepting of Chiba sensei and his skill levels so again, if Dan stopped him, from performing his aikido on him then maybe, just maybe he actually does have something?

Tony Wagstaffe
06-15-2011, 12:09 PM
Isn't that just a bit too glibly dismissive, Graham? Surely if something is martially valid, this can be demonstrated, no? It's a copout to say, "Oh, you're just ignorant" -- if something is martially valid, can't that be demonstrated?

Depends on your version of "martial"...... and somebody else's, it's what I'm always being informed by a number of people on this site, but you know me Mary.....

john.burn
06-15-2011, 12:10 PM
Not for me John, when you mentioned a park I thought it was for other purposes fitting your requirements, sorry.....;) How many people do you know in The T/S world?

I'll ignore the first comment, but the police did seem them training lol. Not living in London I wasn't there.

I don't know anyone in the T/S world very much, and let me make this clear - I'm not saying no one in that branch does NOT have these skills. It's not a training methodology that interests me too much, I have no competitiveness in me, ask my old sports teachers. Having said that, I do have some video's of Tomiki. I just dislike sports and competition immensely and always will - it's the main thing that drew me to aikido after loosing interest in Judo and Karate as taught in this country - sports.

Tony Wagstaffe
06-15-2011, 02:49 PM
I'll ignore the first comment, but the police did seem them training lol. Not living in London I wasn't there.

I don't know anyone in the T/S world very much, and let me make this clear - I'm not saying no one in that branch does NOT have these skills. It's not a training methodology that interests me too much, I have no competitiveness in me, ask my old sports teachers. Having said that, I do have some video's of Tomiki. I just dislike sports and competition immensely and always will - it's the main thing that drew me to aikido after loosing interest in Judo and Karate as taught in this country - sports.

That's fine John, whatever suits you. We just don't talk of it in I/P I/S ?terms, but more from a down to earth point of view. I tend to view it as inner core strength developed in many ways, mine happens to come from Isometric/Isotonic exercise that's all. Did you find anything on the net regarding this? It is quite interesting when you get into it....
I've been at it for years.....
T

john.burn
06-15-2011, 04:04 PM
That's fine John, whatever suits you. We just don't talk of it in I/P I/S ?terms, but more from a down to earth point of view. I tend to view it as inner core strength developed in many ways, mine happens to come from Isometric/Isotonic exercise that's all. Did you find anything on the net regarding this? It is quite interesting when you get into it....
I've been at it for years.....
T

Well... I get what you're saying Tony and I was very skeptical until I grabbed someone who had it as well. Now, I have a lot of friends who are very experienced body workers, sports injury therapists and Bowen therapists... They will confirm with no shadow of a doubt this is not the same thing as what you're talkng about with inner core strength however you get it be it from isotonics, pilates or yoga. The Bowen therapists comment was it changed his whole thought processes on what he thought, and how you can control your body. And... Im a complete beginner at this but could demonstrate it enough to make him question what he knew of anatomical things, and trust me, he knows a lot. That tells me there's something in this.

Anyways, I'm bowing out now because nothing anyone says will change your mind.

Enjoy what you don't know :cool:

hughrbeyer
06-15-2011, 04:08 PM
Joe

I can't agree more.
I reckon if Numata Sensei had stepped off the mat those guys would have just carried on with their ukemi exercise.

Joe, Henry-- Which is a pretty good demonstration of the futility of posting videos. What we each see is what we have the eyes to see, and there's no way to reconcile the differences until we have Numata Sensei here to put our hands on.

hughrbeyer
06-15-2011, 04:10 PM
Yes Hugh I do study the art of peace.

Where we differ is probably on many things including 'martial'

The sword of life life quote? I guarantee we differ on it's meaning.

Implications of not martially valid just shows me anothers ignorance, lack of understanding.

Huh. My post was actually intended to be an invitation to a conversation, not a put-down. If it came across that way, my apologies.

Hellis
06-15-2011, 04:21 PM
Joe, Henry-- Which is a pretty good demonstration of the futility of posting videos. What we each see is what we have the eyes to see, and there's no way to reconcile the differences until we have Numata Sensei here to put our hands on.

Hugh

In my 55 yrs of Aikido I have trained with - and I don't mean the odd weekend -- Kenshiro Abbe - Tadashi Abe - M Noro - N Tamura - M Nakazono - H Kobyashi - TK Chiba - H Tada - H Ichamura - J Nakazono - K Williams the best ever western Aikidoka.
If they had done what I saw in Numata's Sensei's video I would never have trained with them again - we see different things - may I respectfully suggest ``SpecSavers ``.
When I see videos like that I am pleased that my end is near.

Henry Ellis
http://rik-ellis.blogspot.com/

Mike Sigman
06-15-2011, 04:33 PM
Anyways, I'm bowing out now because nothing anyone says will change your mind.
I think it's often much more fun to NOT change someone's mind. Using just the easy example of "groundpath" and "peng jin" from back in the 90's on forums like Empty Flower, the Tai Chi Chuan Forum, Aikido L, and things like that, it was more interesting to reading what an idiot I was for saying things like that when they knew better.

Ten or fifteen years later some of them are ten or fifteen years behind where they could have been, regardless of whom they liked or disliked for suggesting they weren't as knowledgeable as they thought. Who wins?

IF Ikeda Sensei hadn't been publicly encouraging the investigation into practical usage of ki, a few years back, none of these conversations would be happening on AikiWeb today and Wagstaffes would be wagging their staffs over all. Be happy things are where they are. ;)

Mike

aikilouis
06-15-2011, 05:05 PM
I agree that we are probably living a historical moment for aikido. Even though the last of O Sensei's direct students fade slowly away, the quarrels of the following generation, that led to insurmontable ostracism are now weaker. The aikido landscape is more diverse than ever, but the conditions are perhaps more favourable than ever to explore the Founder's legacy with new eyes.

Tony Wagstaffe
06-15-2011, 07:36 PM
Well... I get what you're saying Tony and I was very skeptical until I grabbed someone who had it as well. Now, I have a lot of friends who are very experienced body workers, sports injury therapists and Bowen therapists... They will confirm with no shadow of a doubt this is not the same thing as what you're talkng about with inner core strength however you get it be it from isotonics, pilates or yoga. The Bowen therapists comment was it changed his whole thought processes on what he thought, and how you can control your body. And... Im a complete beginner at this but could demonstrate it enough to make him question what he knew of anatomical things, and trust me, he knows a lot. That tells me there's something in this.

Anyways, I'm bowing out now because nothing anyone says will change your mind.

Enjoy what you don't know :cool:

John, why is it you insist that I don't know? If as you say you have never done "aikido" against an uncooperative uke/partner/player as in Judo or T/S aikido or you don't like doing it because you are non competitive, how can you know if I don't know? That's as daft a statement as you can not demonstrate to me what it is you are on about, the same as Desperate Dan is unwilling to put up a video as we won't be able to see it.... only "feel it" :hypno: A bit like saying oh I know electricity is there and depending on the output will you be able to feel it!! We can't see it unless it is bolt form during thunder storms etc. We have electricity in our bodies that belts around at light speed and we use it constantly every millisecond of our lives. It is produced by chemical reaction as you may well know. It travels through our bodies in nerves etc, makes our muscles move, twitch bla bla bla. Try out isometrics for a few months and you'll get to feel it. Isometrics have been used for hundreds if not thousands of years by martial artist in one form or another. Check out sanchin do in goju ryu karate, they use it for body conditioning..... You see I know nothing according to your statement. Typical of a lot of so called traditionalists.You may have friends that are knowledgeable and they may concur with you , but lets see them demonstrate it against a non cooperative fighter......
Many say we T/S people are heretics and we don't practice "aikido" just because Mr Ueshiba said you must not compete for one reason or another, more to do with philosophical/religious reasons, yet he cross trained and competed/ fought. If that is what you like to practice, something that resembles a martial art, but is in fact empty of any real substance, fine, and if that is the case, carry on and get your "real" substance from DD who is an unknown entity? Personally I'm glad I got my basic teaching from those of more down to earth motivations and outlook, including some traditionalist and other people from different MA who are more open minded and not secretive about what they do and can be checked out credential wise, plus it didn't cost an arm or a leg, or in many cases nothing as they did it for love of the art ...... As I do. Failing that, gut instinct....
Don't get caught in the park.....;)
T

Tony Wagstaffe
06-15-2011, 07:39 PM
Hugh

In my 55 yrs of Aikido I have trained with - and I don't mean the odd weekend -- Kenshiro Abbe - Tadashi Abe - M Noro - N Tamura - M Nakazono - H Kobyashi - TK Chiba - H Tada - H Ichamura - J Nakazono - K Williams the best ever western Aikidoka.
If they had done what I saw in Numata's Sensei's video I would never have trained with them again - we see different things - may I respectfully suggest ``SpecSavers ``.
When I see videos like that I am pleased that my end is near.

Henry Ellis
http://rik-ellis.blogspot.com/

I hope not Sensei..... :straightf

Tony Wagstaffe
06-15-2011, 07:42 PM
I think it's often much more fun to NOT change someone's mind. Using just the easy example of "groundpath" and "peng jin" from back in the 90's on forums like Empty Flower, the Tai Chi Chuan Forum, Aikido L, and things like that, it was more interesting to reading what an idiot I was for saying things like that when they knew better.

Ten or fifteen years later some of them are ten or fifteen years behind where they could have been, regardless of whom they liked or disliked for suggesting they weren't as knowledgeable as they thought. Who wins?

IF Ikeda Sensei hadn't been publicly encouraging the investigation into practical usage of ki, a few years back, none of these conversations would be happening on AikiWeb today and Wagstaffes would be wagging their staffs over all. Be happy things are where they are. ;)

Mike

Good name eh Mike, be careful what you do with your staff, could get nasty....

Tim Ruijs
06-16-2011, 05:24 AM
Why the need to convince the other that one's more right than the other? That 'their' aikido is superior to...whatever.

I strongly believe that a teacher ultimately gets the students he deserves and implicitly the student finds the teacher he deserves.
Many Aikidoka's have changed teachers in an attempt to find confirmation to what they believe is 'good' Aikido. For years they may practise and at some day encounter someone that adjusts their view of what good Aikido is and decide to pursue that particular road.
This is what i think 'finding your way'...

In the whole process what others think is completely irrelevant. You do what you believe is best and do not try to impose your opinion onto others. But an opinion you may off course have :D

When asked for you opinion it is a call of (good) judgement whether or not to do so. Pick your fight.

Suffice it to say many Aikido styles/forms exist, choose wisely ;)

Tony Wagstaffe
06-16-2011, 05:43 AM
Why the need to convince the other that one's more right than the other? That 'their' aikido is superior to...whatever.

I strongly believe that a teacher ultimately gets the students he deserves and implicitly the student finds the teacher he deserves.
Many Aikidoka's have changed teachers in an attempt to find confirmation to what they believe is 'good' Aikido. For years they may practise and at some day encounter someone that adjusts their view of what good Aikido is and decide to pursue that particular road.
This is what i think 'finding your way'...

In the whole process what others think is completely irrelevant. You do what you believe is best and do not try to impose your opinion onto others. But an opinion you may off course have :D

When asked for you opinion it is a call of (good) judgement whether or not to do so. Pick your fight.

Suffice it to say many Aikido styles/forms exist, choose wisely ;)

Oh, I will, I will........

Tim Ruijs
06-16-2011, 08:36 AM
Oh, I will, I will........

No, you won't. You already did ;)

sakumeikan
06-16-2011, 08:55 AM
Joe

I can't agree more.
I reckon if Numata Sensei had stepped off the mat those guys would have just carried on with their ukemi exercise.

How come we never see Chiba Sensei do that stuff :D

Henry Ellis

http://rik-ellis.blogspot.com/

Hi Henry,
Do you think anybody really asks that question concerning T.K.C?
Too many people are seeing /believe in the Emperors New Clothes[Hans Christian Anderson/Danny Kaye.
Cheers, Joe.

DH
06-16-2011, 10:05 AM
Hi Henry,
Do you think anybody really asks that question concerning T.K.C?
Too many people are seeing /believe in the Emperors New Clothes[Hans Christian Anderson/Danny Kaye.
Cheers, Joe.
I simply cannot believe anyone is going on and on about Chiba as someone great. I mean, okay he's got pretty decent aikido, but one of the greats? Come one guys. He wouldn't list himself as great either.
And for the naysayers. Chiba, Ikeda, and Saotome know what I am doing. Each has noted the changes in certain students and has told them they needed to keep training this. One has noticed the change in so many people that he has asked to meet me.
Why any of this causes such a stir is amazing to me. If you don't like it fine. Have a nice life, but it is becoming a movement within the art, with more and more people realizing it ...is...Aikido.

You can't logically (not that logic has stopped anyone here) holler about "each being let alone to do what they want"...and then bitching when a whole bunch of teachers and students are excited to be switching over and doing something you're not. They were all where you are. They are not stupid, and yes...they know the difference. You can't explain away Ikeda's decades on the mats and tell him he doesn't get it. You cannot explain away Gleasons 45 yrs on the mats and tell him he is being conned. Who can tell Ledyard he can't tell the difference between what he was doing and what he has now felt? Now add other SHihan and a host of mid level teachers. How are you going to explain away their own teachers feeling the difference ...in them.
You can't. When you try, it just sounds like sour grapes.
Worse when the responses degenerate into a level equal to school yard name calling. This latest turn by a few people here, accusing those teaching Ip/aiki of immoral, and almost criminal, acts perpetrated on unsuspecting Aikido-ka -while oddly absurd- shouldn't be tolerated. The fact that it is, says something about the attitude of the community willing to accept it.
Hanna made a compelling point; that it is getting to be a bit much, that it seems its all we are hearing. Her and I have corresponded and I am divided on the issue myself. I don't like seeing people angry over it. But the exitement that many feel is also overwhelming to them. One Shihan said what I have heard echoed many times across the country and across the pond: "I feel I am finally catching on to my first love, what drew me to aikido in the first place. This is what I was hoping for in the art, why I went to Japan, and the art didn't deliver on its promise." For them it is a very profound experience they are going through and they are seeing how it can power their aikido. They are greatly enjoying that.
As one person said,
"Why does it have to be such a big deal?"
"Because it IS a big deal!"
So during this time, it is difficult for it not to be a topic of conversation since it is so very fundamental to the art itself.
Dan

DH
06-16-2011, 10:22 AM
Thankfully, we are having a hell of alot of fun doing it.
Without all the angst of talking about it!
Cheers
Dan

DH
06-16-2011, 10:39 AM
Oops, just got yelled at in e-mail.
I wrote:
Worse when the responses degenerate into a level equal to school yard name calling. This latest turn by a few people here, accusing those teaching Ip/aiki of immoral, and almost criminal, acts perpetrated on unsuspecting Aikido-ka -while oddly absurd- shouldn't be tolerated. The fact that it is, says something about the attitude of the community willing to accept it.
To which I got
"Er...Dan, you haven't been reading the thread have you?"
"Well no, not really, no."
"What Tony and Graham are saying is NOT being tollerated by anyone, least of all us here in England!"
Er...Thank you guys. Sorry.:D
Dan

phitruong
06-16-2011, 10:54 AM
Worse when the responses degenerate into a level equal to school yard name calling. This latest turn by a few people here, accusing those teaching Ip/aiki of immoral, and almost criminal, acts perpetrated on unsuspecting Aikido-ka -while oddly absurd- shouldn't be tolerated. The fact that it is, says something about the attitude of the community willing to accept it.

Dan

the imply of the message that you delivered were that folks have spent years of their lives investing in a practice that doesn't worth much. another indirect message that folks also read "your teacher(s) either didn't understand the art or didn't have it in their art". and you expected what sort of reaction? and surprise by the various negative reactions?

Gorgeous George
06-16-2011, 11:01 AM
For what it's worth, I spent my first couple of years of doing aikido the way Tony does it.
I finally realised i'd hit a brick wall: by doing what I was doing, I was not progressing, and I was never going to be able to do what those aikidoka I look up to can do.

So I started learning a different way - a way that made this quote of Koichi Tohei's make perfect sense:

'When someone uses power to throw you, there’s always something you can do to react or counter. But it’s a different story when the person isn’t doing anything in particular and you’re still getting thrown. I thought, “Wow, this is the real thing!”'.

And when I have the money, and with his permission, I would love to attend a Dan Harden seminar.

DH
06-16-2011, 11:14 AM
the imply of the message that you delivered were that folks have spent years of their lives investing in a practice that doesn't worth much. another indirect message that folks also read "your teacher(s) either didn't understand the art or didn't have it in their art". and you expected what sort of reaction? and surprise by the various negative reactions?
Hi Phi
Actually it is the nature and quality of the few replies that are ourageous and are...if you will note, because it is worth noting....NOT typical of budo people. They are not well thought through or even logical.
Most budo people are sharp. Even when they disagree the debates are usually based on logic, are reasoned and at least make sense. Few take it to the level recently seen here.

How do you think so many are now out training this stuff? Because they based their analysis on logic and what was reasonable. It is no surprise what the outcome is. This is the essence of aikido and once felt, aikido people know it instantly. That's why the conversion rate is so damn high. For most, its more like..."Welcome home."
Cheers
Dan

Lorel Latorilla
06-16-2011, 11:45 AM
I think people have entertained this Tony Wagstaffe troll for too long.

phitruong
06-16-2011, 11:51 AM
Hi Phi
Actually it is the nature and quality of the few replies that are ourageous and are...if you will note, because it is worth noting....NOT typical of budo people. They are not well thought through or even logical.
Most budo people are sharp. Even when they disagree the debates are usually based on logic, are reasoned and at least make sense. Few take it to the level recently seen here.

Dan

Dan, it's not the logics the motivated some of the responses. it's more in the domain of emotional, something more primal. those are difficult to deal with for folks who are in it as well as folks who are on the peripheral.

Gorgeous George
06-16-2011, 11:54 AM
I think people have entertained this Tony Wagstaffe troll for too long.

I can't believe they've bothered talking to him for so long.

HL1978
06-16-2011, 12:17 PM
I think people have entertained this Tony Wagstaffe troll for too long.

He does have videos though, yet I haven't seen much discussion of them.

I don't intend any slight to anyone who doesn't have videos up for discussion.

akiy
06-16-2011, 12:45 PM
Hi folks,

Can you please direct your discussion to the topic rather than to the people behind the topic? Let's stay away from making things personal here.

Also, as this discussion is in the "Spiritual" aspects of aikido forum, can you please make sure to explicitly include the topic of aikido within your discussions?

Thank you,

-- Jun

Tony Wagstaffe
06-16-2011, 01:29 PM
I simply cannot believe anyone is going on and on about Chiba as someone great. I mean, okay he's got pretty decent aikido, but one of the greats? Come one guys. He wouldn't list himself as great either.
And for the naysayers. Chiba, Ikeda, and Saotome know what I am doing. Each has noted the changes in certain students and has told them they needed to keep training this. One has noticed the change in so many people that he has asked to meet me.
Why any of this causes such a stir is amazing to me. If you don't like it fine. Have a nice life, but it is becoming a movement within the art, with more and more people realizing it ...is...Aikido.

You can't logically (not that logic has stopped anyone here) holler about "each being let alone to do what they want"...and then bitching when a whole bunch of teachers and students are excited to be switching over and doing something you're not. They were all where you are. They are not stupid, and yes...they know the difference. You can't explain away Ikeda's decades on the mats and tell him he doesn't get it. You cannot explain away Gleasons 45 yrs on the mats and tell him he is being conned. Who can tell Ledyard he can't tell the difference between what he was doing and what he has now felt? Now add other SHihan and a host of mid level teachers. How are you going to explain away their own teachers feeling the difference ...in them.
You can't. When you try, it just sounds like sour grapes.
Worse when the responses degenerate into a level equal to school yard name calling. This latest turn by a few people here, accusing those teaching Ip/aiki of immoral, and almost criminal, acts perpetrated on unsuspecting Aikido-ka -while oddly absurd- shouldn't be tolerated. The fact that it is, says something about the attitude of the community willing to accept it.
Hanna made a compelling point; that it is getting to be a bit much, that it seems its all we are hearing. Her and I have corresponded and I am divided on the issue myself. I don't like seeing people angry over it. But the exitement that many feel is also overwhelming to them. One Shihan said what I have heard echoed many times across the country and across the pond: "I feel I am finally catching on to my first love, what drew me to aikido in the first place. This is what I was hoping for in the art, why I went to Japan, and the art didn't deliver on its promise." For them it is a very profound experience they are going through and they are seeing how it can power their aikido. They are greatly enjoying that.
As one person said,
"Why does it have to be such a big deal?"
"Because it IS a big deal!"
So during this time, it is difficult for it not to be a topic of conversation since it is so very fundamental to the art itself.
Dan

I have a question for Dan as he is so convinced of his own "ability"
How do you rate in your I/P terms people such as Shioda, Tomiki, Shirata, Chiba, Shimizu and a host of Ueshiba's deshi? As they all practised judo or aikido at some point in their lives. I am very interested in your comments as I'm sure everyone else will be to......

akiy
06-16-2011, 02:25 PM
Once again:

Can you please direct your discussion to the topic rather than to the people behind the topic? Let's stay away from making things personal here.

-- Jun

PhillyKiAikido
06-16-2011, 02:36 PM
Hi Ting,

First, I am not a Sensei - I am just another guy doing aiki that is willing to share what I know with others of a like mind :)

Thanks Greg! I thought that was the exact definition of the word "sensei". :)


Second, I am not sure what you mean between styles. Tohei's model is a style of Aikido that teaches ki development and technical waza. What Dan is teaching is not a style nor is there any waza taught. All he is doing is teaching body conditioning for the development of internal strength via solo exercises and paired drills. The use of ki/qi/intent is important for the success of the exercises, but Dan does not really teach its development - he will give pointers on how to do it, but it is not his main focus.

Sorry, I'm confused here. Here you said "Tohei ... teaches ki development...Dan...teaching body conditioning for the development of internal strength ... Dan does not really teach its(Ki) development". So I guess here you meant "ki" is NOT the same thing as "internal strength", they are two different things, right? If yes, what are the definitions of "Ki" and "internal strength"?


However, this is where Tohei's ki development can compliment what Dan is doing. The application of Tohei's four principles of mind and body coordination is an excellent start for learning internal skills - internal strength just can not happen without a coordinated mind and body. However, it is just the crucial first step in the development of internal skills - Tohei never took his model to the next step, but Dan has.

Since I've never been to Mr Harden's seminars, could you please talk a little more details about the definition of "step"?

Do you mean it's the application of Ki to build our bodies?

Mr. Mike Sigman wrote a blog "Baseline Parameters for Internal Strength" http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19910, is it the same "I/S" that you talked about?

Some years ago Ikeda sensei's students wrote a book "Center: The Power of Aikido" http://www.amazon.com/Center-Power-Aikido-Ron-Meyer/dp/158394012X/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1308252023&sr=1-1 and they called Ikeda sensei's training methodology the "Second Level Training(SLT)", is this the same thing as the "next step" you talked about?

Sorry for so many questions, I'm trying to figure out what we're talking about here. Please feel free to PM me if it's not convenient to talk about it in the thread. I appreciate to discuss Aiki(do) with you.

Ting

P.S. I wish I can get a chance to attend some IS seminars in the future to experience it myself.

Marc Abrams
06-16-2011, 03:23 PM
Thanks Greg! I thought that was the exact definition of the word "sensei". :)

Sorry, I'm confused here. Here you said "Tohei ... teaches ki development...Dan...teaching body conditioning for the development of internal strength ... Dan does not really teach its(Ki) development". So I guess here you meant "ki" is NOT the same thing as "internal strength", they are two different things, right? If yes, what are the definitions of "Ki" and "internal strength"?

Since I've never been to Mr Harden's seminars, could you please talk a little more details about the definition of "step"?

Do you mean it's the application of Ki to build our bodies?

Mr. Mike Sigman wrote a blog "Baseline Parameters for Internal Strength" http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19910, is it the same "I/S" that you talked about?

Some years ago Ikeda sensei's students wrote a book "Center: The Power of Aikido" http://www.amazon.com/Center-Power-Aikido-Ron-Meyer/dp/158394012X/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1308252023&sr=1-1 and they called Ikeda sensei's training methodology the "Second Level Training(SLT)", is this the same thing as the "next step" you talked about?

Sorry for so many questions, I'm trying to figure out what we're talking about here. Please feel free to PM me if it's not convenient to talk about it in the thread. I appreciate to discuss Aiki(do) with you.

Ting

P.S. I wish I can get a chance to attend some IS seminars in the future to experience it myself.

Ting:

Dan Harden is planning on visiting Greg sometime this summer. If that is not an open event, Dan will be back at my place 9/9-9/11. Details to follow soon. I strongly urge you to make effort to attend a seminar by someone who can teach IS. My own personal experiences have led me to make a dedicated effort to learn as much as I can from Dan. He has an excellent teaching methodology, combined with a great sense of humor. He is very skilled and has a great attitude toward sharing his experiences with others while supporting their efforts as well.

The differences and similarities that you are trying to process will become a lot clearer after getting some hands-on experience.

Cordially,

Marc Abrams

hughrbeyer
06-16-2011, 03:48 PM
Face it though, Dan, it's not surprising your message is hard to hear. Look at Henry's last message... you gonna tell someone with years and years of experience on the mat that he's missed something fundamental?

Well... yes, you are. Of course there's some angst.

I do think some of the accusations have been unacceptable, but really only from two posters. I might have jumped to your defense, but it seemed unnecessary. People expose themselves and anyway, when the minnow leaps to defend the shark... the shark just smiles.

gregstec
06-16-2011, 03:55 PM
Thanks Greg! I thought that was the exact definition of the word "sensei". :)

Sorry, I'm confused here. Here you said "Tohei ... teaches ki development...Dan...teaching body conditioning for the development of internal strength ... Dan does not really teach its(Ki) development". So I guess here you meant "ki" is NOT the same thing as "internal strength", they are two different things, right? If yes, what are the definitions of "Ki" and "internal strength"?

Since I've never been to Mr Harden's seminars, could you please talk a little more details about the definition of "step"?

Do you mean it's the application of Ki to build our bodies?

Mr. Mike Sigman wrote a blog "Baseline Parameters for Internal Strength" http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19910, is it the same "I/S" that you talked about?

Some years ago Ikeda sensei's students wrote a book "Center: The Power of Aikido" http://www.amazon.com/Center-Power-Aikido-Ron-Meyer/dp/158394012X/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1308252023&sr=1-1 and they called Ikeda sensei's training methodology the "Second Level Training(SLT)", is this the same thing as the "next step" you talked about?

Sorry for so many questions, I'm trying to figure out what we're talking about here. Please feel free to PM me if it's not convenient to talk about it in the thread. I appreciate to discuss Aiki(do) with you.

Ting

P.S. I wish I can get a chance to attend some IS seminars in the future to experience it myself.

Hi Ting,

Thanks for the thoughtful reply - I am kinda in the middle of something right now and will get back to you a little later with detailed answers and comments to your post.

Best

Greg

DH
06-16-2011, 04:35 PM
Face it though, Dan, it's not surprising your message is hard to hear. Look at Henry's last message... you gonna tell someone with years and years of experience on the mat that he's missed something fundamental?
Well... yes, you are. Of course there's some angst.
Hi Hugh
Lately it is the people with years and years in, now telling others.
You guys have gotten me passionate about sharing. The reason is the look on your faces when you feel me and then you start to do things. Looking in to the eyes of someone who has been at this game for a very long time and seeing them do things they didn't think they could...and then....watching their wheels turn as they put two and tow together, is very fulfilling.
On the net, I only go to a point though, you can't push.

I do think some of the accusations have been unacceptable, but really only from two posters. I might have jumped to your defense, but it seemed unnecessary. People expose themselves and anyway, when the minnow leaps to defend the shark... the shark just smiles.
I have seen debates here, But I've never read the level of scorn and hatred in the type comments that have been made against me.
Between three people, I've now been called a liar, con man and a criminal on Aikiweb, and it is apparently okay to do so.
I have also learned that I am not allowed to defend myself or I am one and the same. So I just have to sit and take it.

So, what have you gathered from the idea that Ki...was strength in the first place. Long before new age westerners tried to re-define it?
Do you understand more and starting to feel the idea of intent leading ki and ki leading strength?
All the best
Dan

graham christian
06-16-2011, 05:44 PM
Oh well. Glad to hear ip is so superior to Toheis understanding. Oh not forgetting O'Senseis too.

What a farce.

mrlizard123
06-16-2011, 05:57 PM
Oh well. Glad to hear ip is so superior to Toheis understanding. Oh not forgetting O'Senseis too.

What a farce.

This post seems a little at odds with the concept of loving that you normally say is your understanding and expression of aikido Graham, why has your approach changed? :confused:

graham christian
06-16-2011, 06:05 PM
This post seems a little at odds with the concept of loving that you normally say is your understanding and expression of aikido Graham, why has your approach changed? :confused:

Good question if for real.

gregstec
06-16-2011, 06:28 PM
Ting:

Dan Harden is planning on visiting Greg sometime this summer. If that is not an open event, Dan will be back at my place 9/9-9/11. Details to follow soon. I strongly urge you to make effort to attend a seminar by someone who can teach IS. My own personal experiences have led me to make a dedicated effort to learn as much as I can from Dan. He has an excellent teaching methodology, combined with a great sense of humor. He is very skilled and has a great attitude toward sharing his experiences with others while supporting their efforts as well.

The differences and similarities that you are trying to process will become a lot clearer after getting some hands-on experience.

Cordially,

Marc Abrams

Ting,

The next semi-open event I will have with Dan will be sometime in November or early December - have not set a date yet.

However, with that said, I am having a training session this Saturday at my place in Lancaster county with five of us that has trained with Dan before as well as a couple of newbies. You are only a couple hours away and if you are interested, send me a private email and I will give you more detail.

DISCLAIMER: The above invite shall not be construed in any manner to be a marketing ploy or any other type of commercial solicitation - there is no cost for the training and only a small donation for the group lunch will be encouraged (only if you like the lunch) :)

Greg

Chris Li
06-16-2011, 06:30 PM
Oh well. Glad to hear ip is so superior to Toheis understanding. Oh not forgetting O'Senseis too.

What a farce.

I don't care much whether anybody understands a little or a lot - what really matters is what they can teach me, how they can make me better.

Morihei Ueshiba was mostly incomprehensible to his students - by their own admission. Most of them didn't understand how they got what they got and had less idea of how to pass it along.

It's not hard to see - who of Ueshiba's students measured up to Ueshiba? Of their students, who measured up to them? What you get is a deteriorating spiral unless some new factor is added to the equation.

Best,

Chris

Chris Li
06-16-2011, 06:35 PM
Ting,

The next semi-open event I will have with Dan will be sometime in November or early December - have not set a date yet.

However, with that said, I am having a training session this Saturday at my place in Lancaster county with five of us that has trained with Dan before as well as a couple of newbies. You are only a couple hours away and if you are interested, send me a private email and I will give you more detail.

DISCLAIMER: The above invite shall not be construed in any manner to be a marketing ploy or any other type of commercial solicitation - there is no cost for the training and only a small donation for the group lunch will be encouraged (only if you like the lunch) :)

Greg

Hey! I was going to sell him a trip to Hawaii :) .

Best,

Chris

gregstec
06-16-2011, 06:38 PM
Oh well. Glad to hear ip is so superior to Toheis understanding. Oh not forgetting O'Senseis too.

What a farce.

Graham,

You and I have been cordial and I will continue that here. However, your post has no merit. You (as well as others) would be somewhat surprised at how close Dan's view of ki matches Tohei's - the differences lies strictly in the application and the extent of application.

Greg

gregstec
06-16-2011, 06:48 PM
Hey! I was going to sell him a trip to Hawaii :) .

Best,

Chris

Hi Chris,

I would love to buy a trip out to see your guys (if I could afford it) My Aikido roots are part of your organization - I initially studied under David H. Kalama in the mid 70's, who was chief instructor of the Marianas Aiki Kwai in Guam; which was a sub-set of the Hawaii Aiki Kwai :)

Greg

sakumeikan
06-16-2011, 06:50 PM
Ting,

The next semi-open event I will have with Dan will be sometime in November or early December - have not set a date yet.

However, with that said, I am having a training session this Saturday at my place in Lancaster county with five of us that has trained with Dan before as well as a couple of newbies. You are only a couple hours away and if you are interested, send me a private email and I will give you more detail.

DISCLAIMER: The above invite shall not be construed in any manner to be a marketing ploy or any other type of commercial solicitation - there is no cost for the training and only a small donation for the group lunch will be encouraged (only if you like the lunch) :)

Greg
Dear Greg,
I am interested in your comment about Tohei Sensei reaching a certain level of Ki/I.P development, You then make the statement that mr Harden has taken the concept one step beyond Tohei sensei.On what basis do you make this assertion? Have you trained /studied directly with Tohei Sensei? If so , was it recently ?Are you competent enough to make comparisons?I say this since I am not familiar with your aikido lineage .Can you explain why you believe Mr Harden reached another level? I await your reply with much interest. Hope you are well, Cheers, Joe.

Chris Li
06-16-2011, 06:53 PM
Hi Chris,

I would love to buy a trip out to see your guys (if I could afford it) My Aikido roots are part of your organization - I initially studied under David H. Kalama in the mid 70's, who was chief instructor of the Marianas Aiki Kwai in Guam; which was a sub-set of the Hawaii Aiki Kwai :)

Greg

Things have gotten pretty fragmented since then - the Hawaii Aiki Kwai is defunct and the dojo are all pretty much independent or affiliated directly to Japan.

Still, you're welcome anytime!

Best,

Chris

graham christian
06-16-2011, 06:57 PM
I don't care much whether anybody understands a little or a lot - what really matters is what they can teach me, how they can make me better.

Morihei Ueshiba was mostly incomprehensible to his students - by their own admission. Most of them didn't understand how they got what they got and had less idea of how to pass it along.

It's not hard to see - who of Ueshiba's students measured up to Ueshiba? Of their students, who measured up to them? What you get is a deteriorating spiral unless some new factor is added to the equation.

Best,

Chris

Well there you are Chris, there's one difference between you and me. I do care much thus all I can do is look at such accompanying misplaced statements with sadness.

To me on first glance your attitude therefore is selfish however I may be wrong to a degree so let's leave it as self determined instead.

Morehei Ueshiba was mostly incomprehensible to his students. Now there's a classic line. To many he also wasn't incomprehensible. Both statements are true. Can you not see that 'by their own admission' is a self evident truth. Anyone who finds someone incomprehensible obviously admits to it. Funny how those who don't say that are never discussed at the same time.

You're right in that for some it's not hard to see who measured up and those that did obviously produced better students. No deteriorating spiral there.

Only those who believe that line of thought given in such vague terms would believe such.

As I said, sad.

Regards.G.

Chris Li
06-16-2011, 07:10 PM
Well there you are Chris, there's one difference between you and me. I do care much thus all I can do is look at such accompanying misplaced statements with sadness.

To me on first glance your attitude therefore is selfish however I may be wrong to a degree so let's leave it as self determined instead.

Morehei Ueshiba was mostly incomprehensible to his students. Now there's a classic line. To many he also wasn't incomprehensible. Both statements are true. Can you not see that 'by their own admission' is a self evident truth. Anyone who finds someone incomprehensible obviously admits to it. Funny how those who don't say that are never discussed at the same time.

You're right in that for some it's not hard to see who measured up and those that did obviously produced better students. No deteriorating spiral there.

Only those who believe that line of thought given in such vague terms would believe such.

As I said, sad.

Regards.G.

Well, if you think in terms of evaluating someone as a teacher, then it makes all kinds of sense - how is it selfish?

If you think that someone who ought to be discussed isn't - why not bring then up?

Then - who did he produce that was better than he was?

Best,

Chris

sakumeikan
06-16-2011, 07:13 PM
I don't care much whether anybody understands a little or a lot - what really matters is what they can teach me, how they can make me better.

Morihei Ueshiba was mostly incomprehensible to his students - by their own admission. Most of them didn't understand how they got what they got and had less idea of how to pass it along.

It's not hard to see - who of Ueshiba's students measured up to Ueshiba? Of their students, who measured up to them? What you get is a deteriorating spiral unless some new factor is added to the equation.

Best,

Chris
DearChris,
What is causing the downward spiral in Aikido [apart from a few
groups] is the commercialism of the art.Another factor is social trends.People do not as a rule want to train in a manner that was common to people like Saito Sensei.Who nowadays trains in suwariwaza until their knees bleed and scab over?No Aikido is now in my opinion being touted as a therapy,health promoting/
spiritual /philosophical /universal panacea.Rarely do we see it as a Martial discipline.In fact in todays society with certain few exceptions [the military, law enforcement, pugilist, muggers] there is very little in the way of warlike situations in general.
Dan grades [once a rarity]are now dished out willy nilly like confetti.Some guys even print the own certificates.It also doesnt help when the aikido community as a whole is littered with a whole barrage of aikido organisations.Aikido unifying people -in a pigs ear!We cannot even discuss subjects on this forum without the occasional bit of slagging off.Oh well -I live in hope.
Cheers, Joe

graham christian
06-16-2011, 07:15 PM
Graham,

You and I have been cordial and I will continue that here. However, your post has no merit. You (as well as others) would be somewhat surprised at how close Dan's view of ki matches Tohei's - the differences lies strictly in the application and the extent of application.

Greg

Greg.
Your view is my post has no merit, your opinion. Put in such a way as a statement IS dismissive.

You believe his views are close to Toheis? O.k. Such is your belief. You are spot on when you say I would be somewhat surprised.

In my experience when a persons views are similar then comments about them are respectful, full of admiration, very validatory and humble. ESPECIALLY when that person is in all respects far longer serving, far more experienced and is the renowned expert on that particular subject in that particular field, namely Aikido.

That doesn't mean I disrespect you it means due to my view and the examples given I disagree with your view.

Regards.G.

gregstec
06-16-2011, 07:19 PM
Thanks Greg! I thought that was the exact definition of the word "sensei". :)

Sorry, I'm confused here. Here you said "Tohei ... teaches ki development...Dan...teaching body conditioning for the development of internal strength ... Dan does not really teach its(Ki) development". So I guess here you meant "ki" is NOT the same thing as "internal strength", they are two different things, right? If yes, what are the definitions of "Ki" and "internal strength"?

Since I've never been to Mr Harden's seminars, could you please talk a little more details about the definition of "step"?

Do you mean it's the application of Ki to build our bodies?

Mr. Mike Sigman wrote a blog "Baseline Parameters for Internal Strength" http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19910, is it the same "I/S" that you talked about?

Some years ago Ikeda sensei's students wrote a book "Center: The Power of Aikido" http://www.amazon.com/Center-Power-Aikido-Ron-Meyer/dp/158394012X/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1308252023&sr=1-1 and they called Ikeda sensei's training methodology the "Second Level Training(SLT)", is this the same thing as the "next step" you talked about?

Sorry for so many questions, I'm trying to figure out what we're talking about here. Please feel free to PM me if it's not convenient to talk about it in the thread. I appreciate to discuss Aiki(do) with you.

Ting

P.S. I wish I can get a chance to attend some IS seminars in the future to experience it myself.

OK Ting, got a little time now for some comments.

Sorry, I'm confused here. Here you said "Tohei ... teaches ki development...Dan...teaching body conditioning for the development of internal strength ... Dan does not really teach its(Ki) development". So I guess here you meant "ki" is NOT the same thing as "internal strength", they are two different things, right? If yes, what are the definitions of "Ki" and "internal strength"?

Since I've never been to Mr Harden's seminars, could you please talk a little more details about the definition of "step"?

Do you mean it's the application of Ki to build our bodies?


Let me just rephrase and add some clarification on this. Yes, Dan does teach ki development, it is part of his conditioning teaching. However, it may not be the type of Ki some may believe in. To clarify, Yi (mind) leads Intent, which leads Qi (ki) which leads Li (strength/power) - Tohei also taught Mind leads ki and ki leads body - this is a similar approach. However, the difference is that Tohei also taught ki development in more than one application - he taught it in his waza, use in daily life, and in kiatsu. Dan's approach is simply in the development of internal strength and he adds more to this area than Tohei did - this is the next 'step' - make sense?

Mr. Mike Sigman wrote a blog "Baseline Parameters for Internal Strength" http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19910, is it the same "I/S" that you talked about?

All I am going to say in this area is that Dan and Mike has some similarities in their approaches and there are also differences - also the only thing that is 100% agreed upon by all is that if you mix the two, there will be a combustible event - best not to go there :)

Some years ago Ikeda sensei's students wrote a book "Center: The Power of Aikido" http://www.amazon.com/Center-Power-Aikido-Ron-Meyer/dp/158394012X/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1308252023&sr=1-1 and they called Ikeda sensei's training methodology the "Second Level Training(SLT)", is this the same thing as the "next step" you talked about?

Sorry, I am not familiar with the book so I cannot comment. However, I have trained with Ikeda and he is always looking at the next 'step' - nothing is more constant than change :)

I hope I was able to answer your questions somewhat satisfactorily.

Greg

gregstec
06-16-2011, 07:31 PM
Things have gotten pretty fragmented since then - the Hawaii Aiki Kwai is defunct and the dojo are all pretty much independent or affiliated directly to Japan.

Still, you're welcome anytime!

Best,

Chris

Thanks for the invite - you may just be seeing me coming over the horizon sometime in the next year or so :)

graham christian
06-16-2011, 07:41 PM
Well, if you think in terms of evaluating someone as a teacher, then it makes all kinds of sense - how is it selfish?

If you think that someone who ought to be discussed isn't - why not bring then up?

Then - who did he produce that was better than he was?

Best,

Chris

Three valid points so I will address them.

Selfish: If I evaluate my teacher or boss or anyone purely on the basis of what's good for me then yes I am being selfish. Now when I say self determined and compare it to selfish then here is the difference I mean:

If such a friend or boss or teacher is behaving beligerantly, arrogantly, or destructively towards others then I can A) Tell him his behaviour concerns me, show my dissapproval (self determined) or B) Dismiss it and say it's nothing to do with me or even defend it(selfish)

Secondly: Someone being discussed who isn't. My point is that if using ones who couldn't understand what was being said as a prime example or to use as the basis of so called reason is blatantly stupid. If choosing such a route then those who did understand would have to be compared and contrasted with at the same time or else the whole line of reason is a farce.

Who did he produce who was better than him? Is that a criteria?

Wow, I wish it was. It's one of my favourites. I am the only person I know who openly states such a thing about self. I have NEVER found anyone yet who understands this let alone believe it.

Regards.G.

gregstec
06-16-2011, 07:42 PM
Greg.
Your view is my post has no merit, your opinion. Put in such a way as a statement IS dismissive.

You believe his views are close to Toheis? O.k. Such is your belief. You are spot on when you say I would be somewhat surprised.

In my experience when a persons views are similar then comments about them are respectful, full of admiration, very validatory and humble. ESPECIALLY when that person is in all respects far longer serving, far more experienced and is the renowned expert on that particular subject in that particular field, namely Aikido.

That doesn't mean I disrespect you it means due to my view and the examples given I disagree with your view.

Regards.G.

Hey Graham,

As I stated in another post, I respect your right to voice you opinions in any manner you desire as long as they don't harm others - in my opinion, I don't see Dan as being disrespectful to Tohei - actually, in private conversations, Dan has expressed the utmost regard for Tohei and his achievements stating they are absolutely essential as a first step to IS development - however, he simply states that Tohei took internal strength development only so far - others are just taking it farther that is all, and Dan is only one of them.

Greg

graham christian
06-16-2011, 07:50 PM
Hey Graham,

As I stated in another post, I respect your right to voice you opinions in any manner you desire as long as they don't harm others - in my opinion, I don't see Dan as being disrespectful to Tohei - actually, in private conversations, Dan has expressed the utmost regard for Tohei and his achievements stating they are absolutely essential as a first step to IS development - however, he simply states that Tohei took internal strength development only so far - others are just taking it farther that is all, and Dan is only one of them.

Greg
Greg.
I understand your view and respectfully disagree, as you do mine.

Thus we end in unison but not harmony.

Regards.G.

Chris Li
06-16-2011, 07:53 PM
Three valid points so I will address them.

Selfish: If I evaluate my teacher or boss or anyone purely on the basis of what's good for me then yes I am being selfish. Now when I say self determined and compare it to selfish then here is the difference I mean:

If such a friend or boss or teacher is behaving beligerantly, arrogantly, or destructively towards others then I can A) Tell him his behaviour concerns me, show my dissapproval (self determined) or B) Dismiss it and say it's nothing to do with me or even defend it(selfish)

Secondly: Someone being discussed who isn't. My point is that if using ones who couldn't understand what was being said as a prime example or to use as the basis of so called reason is blatantly stupid. If choosing such a route then those who did understand would have to be compared and contrasted with at the same time or else the whole line of reason is a farce.

Who did he produce who was better than him? Is that a criteria?

Wow, I wish it was. It's one of my favourites. I am the only person I know who openly states such a thing about self. I have NEVER found anyone yet who understands this let alone believe it.

Regards.G.

The value in a teacher is their ability to teach you something. That's why I made the original statement. I wouldn't evaluate a friend or a boss the same way - those are different relationships (although they often overlap). If you're evaluating someone's skill as a teacher why wouldn't you evaluate their ability to teach you?

I think that the goal of all good teachers is to produce someone who is better then they are. The great ones actually do so.

Best,

Chris

graham christian
06-16-2011, 08:08 PM
The value in a teacher is their ability to teach you something. That's why I made the original statement. I wouldn't evaluate a friend or a boss the same way - those are different relationships (although they often overlap). If you're evaluating someone's skill as a teacher why wouldn't you evaluate their ability to teach you?

I think that the goal of all good teachers is to produce someone who is better then they are. The great ones actually do so.

Best,

Chris

As I said, we're different in that respect.

As to 'The great ones actually do' I'd love to see your examples.

I would say that makes Takeds Sensei a great. Of course we enter the foeld of opinion here.

Regards.G.

gregstec
06-16-2011, 08:09 PM
Dear Greg,
I am interested in your comment about Tohei Sensei reaching a certain level of Ki/I.P development, You then make the statement that mr Harden has taken the concept one step beyond Tohei sensei.On what basis do you make this assertion? Have you trained /studied directly with Tohei Sensei? If so , was it recently ?Are you competent enough to make comparisons?I say this since I am not familiar with your aikido lineage .Can you explain why you believe Mr Harden reached another level? I await your reply with much interest. Hope you are well, Cheers, Joe.

Hi Joe,

fair enough questions. First, I already supplied a little bit about my Aikido lineage and connection to Tohei's teachings in my response to Chris, but I will give a little more here.

No, I have never trained with Tohei. However, I did train with Koretoshi Maruyama, who was Tohei's first chief instructor back in the 70's when he created the Ki Society. During that time (1976/1977) he came to Guam for weeks at a time and took over training on the island; not like the one and two day seminars that head instructors do today. Am I an expert in Tohei's teachings ? , no, but I got some good quality time during the initial days of the organization's development with its chief instructor. Also during that time, there were after hours private sessions on Kiatsu with key personnel on the island - as being only a sankyu at that time I was a nobody, but I always got invited along by Kalama sensei because I bought the beer :)

As far as a comparison with Dan, let's just say that this is a major topic of our discussions when we talk, which just today we talked over an hour and the subject of ki and Tohei was at the core of that discussion. Bottom line is that Dan does not disrespect Tohei and he does believe his Ki teachings are crucial to establishing a firm foundation for internal strength development; however, his teachings just did not go into more detail in that area like some of the Chinese IMA systems - that is all.

Greg

JO
06-16-2011, 08:18 PM
I have seen debates here, But I've never read the level of scorn and hatred in the type comments that have been made against me.
Between three people, I've now been called a liar, con man and a criminal on Aikiweb, and it is apparently okay to do so.
I have also learned that I am not allowed to defend myself or I am one and the same. So I just have to sit and take it.


I wouldn't get too upset about the name calling. Tony isn't the kind of guy that brings aything new to the discussion. But I do understand where he comes from. The concept of "ki" in aikido suffers greatly from the large number of people doing soft flowy aikido with no backbone behind it and there have been people making claims of martial power that really were frauds. The group I train in is somewhat dominated by people who have no patience for those who are too soft because they usually aren't able to keep up with them on the mat. If your skills and your ability to teach them live up to your posts, maybe that will change.

He is also right that your personal secretiveness comes across as strange in the world of today. A quick search of my posts here will tell you who I train with, which senior instructors I've met, my rank and links to my dan tests so that anyone can see at least something of what I do. Aikido is a publicly taught art where all are welcome and secrets are few, especially in North America, and it attracts those like myself that prefer things that way. We are now in the Youtube era, not having a public video out and a basic biography public is just a little weird in todays world.

You often bring up the well known people who have come around to your view, as you should since they are the only reason I bother paying any attention to these threads. But many of your claims to connection to senior aikidoka are painfully vague, with the exception of Bill Gleason. I suggest you stick to talking about the people you feel able to name specifically, as anything unverifiable is going to be viewed as suspect. But really, if you are interested in having your ideas truly having an impact in the broader aikido world, your going to have to step out a little further into the light I think.

At any rate, if the only way to find out what you and your skills look like is in person, let me know if you're ever in La Belle Province. In the martial arts, feeling is believing, everything else is blablabla.

Chris Li
06-16-2011, 08:34 PM
You often bring up the well known people who have come around to your view, as you should since they are the only reason I bother paying any attention to these threads. But many of your claims to connection to senior aikidoka are painfully vague, with the exception of Bill Gleason. I suggest you stick to talking about the people you feel able to name specifically, as anything unverifiable is going to be viewed as suspect.

I don't know that I qualify as well known, but I have no problem at all vouching for Dan and what he can do. Just don't judge his stuff by what you may see me doing :) .

Best,

Chris

JO
06-16-2011, 09:03 PM
I don't know that I qualify as well known, but I have no problem at all vouching for Dan and what he can do. Just don't judge his stuff by what you may see me doing :) .

Best,

Chris

Actually Chris, your word does have some weight with me. You've been on this forum almost as long as I have and since you post about five times as often I almost feel I know you. I haven't written Dan off at all, it's just that I can see exactly where his critics are coming from and I really feel he would come across better if he put more of himself out there.

Chris Li
06-16-2011, 09:10 PM
Actually Chris, your word does have some weight with me. You've been on this forum almost as long as I have and since you post about five times as often I almost feel I know you. I haven't written Dan off at all, it's just that I can see exactly where his critics are coming from and I really feel he would come across better if he put more of himself out there.

You should have seen him on Aikido-L - at least he proofreads some of his stuff now :) .

Best,

Chris

gregstec
06-16-2011, 09:42 PM
Greg.
I understand your view and respectfully disagree, as you do mine.

Thus we end in unison but not harmony.

Regards.G.

There must be contrast in the world to maintain harmony - no ying and yang, and all will just fall apart :)

hughrbeyer
06-16-2011, 09:48 PM
...I've never read the level of scorn and hatred in the type comments that have been made against me.
Between three people, I've now been called a liar, con man and a criminal on Aikiweb...

As long as it's the people who don't know you, it's just internet noise. When people who know you start joining in, then you worry.

So, what have you gathered from the idea that Ki...was strength in the first place. Long before new age westerners tried to re-define it?
Do you understand more and starting to feel the idea of intent leading ki and ki leading strength?

Durrr... nope.

First, having given up weightlifting primarily because of you, when I was right at the point of achieving a 1.5X BW bench and 2X BW squat, you've got some balls telling me this is all strength anyway. :grr: Howabout I go back to the weight room and tell you I'm working on IP? Those muscles are internal, right?:p

Intent leading ki and ki leading strength... maybe I'm halfway there. Where I get to is something that doesn't feel like strength, it feels like strength became irrelevant. Is that what you mean by ki being strength? But it doesn't feel like the strength of the weight room, even when I was trying to bench press by pushing with my back (which works very well, btw).

But I'm unwilling to limit ki to that box anyway. I think there are more parts to it and defining it as "strength" as we now use it feels too limiting.

hughrbeyer
06-16-2011, 09:54 PM
Oh well. Glad to hear ip is so superior to Toheis understanding. Oh not forgetting O'Senseis too.

Didn't you just agree that it should be the goal of a teacher to raise students who are better than they are? What do you think it would look like if aikidokas got better than Tohei or O-Sensei?

To paraphrase somebody-or-other, if we're standing on the shoulders of giants, what's our excuse for NOT seeing further than they?

sakumeikan
06-17-2011, 02:49 AM
Once again:

Can you please direct your discussion to the topic rather than to the people behind the topic? Let's stay away from making things personal here.

-- Jun

Dear MR Akiyama,
I suggest you address this issue [personalising ]to Mr Harden.[who passed judgement on Chiba Sensei]He is the one in this particular instance who instigated the subsequent response from Tony.Of course if you are making a general comment fine by me.
It just seems to me to be coincidental that you respond after Tony asks a valid question from D.H. Tony may well be seen as an irritant but in this instance I believe he has a point.You of course are the Moderator , so whether I agree with you or not , you call the shots. Cheers, Joe.

mrlizard123
06-17-2011, 02:55 AM
Oh well. Glad to hear ip is so superior to Toheis understanding. Oh not forgetting O'Senseis too.

What a farce.This post seems a little at odds with the concept of loving that you normally say is your understanding and expression of aikido Graham, why has your approach changed? :confused:
Good question if for real.

If by "real" you mean was I asking the question or was it rhetorical then no it wasn't rhetorical.

When one espouses non-control, non-confrontation, loving compassion, etc as basic tenets of how one behaves both on and off of the mat, which I believe you have but am willing to accept correction, do statements made in the manner above gel with this?

Dazzler
06-17-2011, 03:57 AM
T
Some years ago Ikeda sensei's students wrote a book "Center: The Power of Aikido" http://www.amazon.com/Center-Power-Aikido-Ron-Meyer/dp/158394012X/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1308252023&sr=1-1 and they called Ikeda sensei's training methodology the "Second Level Training(SLT)", is this the same thing as the "next step" you talked about?......

P.S. I wish I can get a chance to attend some IS seminars in the future to experience it myself. Good book...found it useful and interesting when I read it.

Felt that a hands on session with Dan delved much deeper into the 'internal movement' and overall body conditioning and usage though.

Think I'll read it again ...having seen Dan I think i may get more out of it now than I did previously.

IMO ...same probably applies to all of my 'normal practice'...I can carry on as before but maybe Dan has enabled me to see a little more of what was there all the time.

So I can squeeeeeeeze a little more juice from it.

Regards

D

ps. Go for it on the seminars...if its not for you....well at least you'll know, and if it is...then you'll have a whole new ballpark to play in....

Dazzler
06-17-2011, 04:22 AM
IMO ...same probably applies to all of my 'normal practice'...I can carry on as before but maybe Dan has enabled me to see a little more of what was there all the time.

So I can squeeeeeeeze a little more juice from it.

.

To clarify this a little more...

I'm not in a position to say if Tohei was lesser than, O'sensei, or from my own lineage whether Tamura was lesser than O'sensei and Pierre Chassang was lesser than Tamura....my opinion is that of the 'minnow' from the posts above...although my small voice would shout respect for all of these people who are so far ahead of me they are specks in the distance and I am unable to see who leads the race.

What is important that they are in the direction that I'm following.

Seeing Dan and taking instruction from him is no disrespect to these people or my main instructor.

Its simply availing myself of specialist resource and reaping the benefit of the time and study invested there.

If I'd pressed on with MMA stuff...no one would bat an eyelid if I pulled in a Muay Thai guy for my standup game, or boxer. or BJJ specialist for ground game...or conditioning coach for cardio....or Yoga for flexibility.

Its normal.

A good coach would be calling these guys in to work with his students.

I dont see a variance here and think we should look past the emotion around suggesting someone might have improved upon the transmission skills of those we hold dear.

FWIW

D

chillzATL
06-17-2011, 09:00 AM
Dear Greg,
I am interested in your comment about Tohei Sensei reaching a certain level of Ki/I.P development, You then make the statement that mr Harden has taken the concept one step beyond Tohei sensei.On what basis do you make this assertion? Have you trained /studied directly with Tohei Sensei? If so , was it recently ?Are you competent enough to make comparisons?I say this since I am not familiar with your aikido lineage .Can you explain why you believe Mr Harden reached another level? I await your reply with much interest. Hope you are well, Cheers, Joe.

Joe,

I see that Greg already responded, but I would like too as well. He and I have very similar lineages. My instructor was a student of Ueshiba and Tohei. He was close with Tohei and initially went with him after the split and was one of his shihans. So I'm pretty familiar with methods and I'm also on the IP path, so to speak.

If you break IS/IP down into its components and look at what Tohei said and tried to teach, the similarities are unmistakable. His four basic principles were all about creating a relaxed, connected and balanced body that moves from the hara/dantien and uses that body to connect with and control another person. There are a lot of aspects to that, but that's the basic gist of it. The problem is that nothing he taught was very clear in relation to what you're supposed to get out of it.. You're never told that all of the exercises and things he taught were for this very specific body development. What people like Dan and Mike are doing is taking that same basic idea and cleaning it up. They're filling in the gaps, explaining things better and doing exercises and drills that are more clear with an easy to understand end result.

gregstec
06-17-2011, 09:17 AM
Joe,

I see that Greg already responded, but I would like too as well. He and I have very similar lineages. My instructor was a student of Ueshiba and Tohei. He was close with Tohei and initially went with him after the split and was one of his shihans. So I'm pretty familiar with methods and I'm also on the IP path, so to speak.

If you break IS/IP down into its components and look at what Tohei said and tried to teach, the similarities are unmistakable. His four basic principles were all about creating a relaxed, connected and balanced body that moves from the hara/dantien and uses that body to connect with and control another person. There are a lot of aspects to that, but that's the basic gist of it. The problem is that nothing he taught was very clear in relation to what you're supposed to get out of it.. You're never told that all of the exercises and things he taught were for this very specific body development. What people like Dan and Mike are doing is taking that same basic idea and cleaning it up. They're filling in the gaps, explaining things better and doing exercises and drills that are more clear with an easy to understand end result.

Well said :) plus they have added aspects of Chinese methods as well to their trainings that add additional perspectives on the same objectives.

Greg

DH
06-17-2011, 09:24 AM
For years I avoided using the word ki and opted for aiki. Ki gets you into trouble from the jump, even the Asians don't agree.
Everyone has assigned their own definitions from
Practical, energy in external muscle form,
Practical (more accurate in my view) ki energy in breath power/muscle/tendon/fascia form,
Typical repackaged new age philosophy definitions, on to practically otherworldly Jedi Knight ideas.
It gets even worse when a beloved teacher redefined it for you. There is just no way to educate someone out of that. In their eyes you are invalidating their cherished asian/teacher experience.
And very few are concerned with what it was supposed to be at its inception
The default for many modern people is to have the attitude that ...I...can decide what something means, and then validate it by consensus.
With ki we are taking a concept, not are own, and assigning it new meanings, and then everyone is told to accept all of them as equal, after all..we are entitled to equal opinion...right?

It gets even more difficult when we use physical skill to erroneously validate/invalidate someone;
Person a's opinions is discounted because they physically cannot produce anything meaningful and compelling.
Person b is given too much credibility because he has daunting physical skills. His opinion or take on things is considered gospel by his followers.
I'm not going to play referee and say who is right or wrong. It's a no win situation.

It was like trying to tell a bunch of modern weapons guys in love with Japanese swords that they were NOT the best swords in the world. Metallurgically, it can be proved true, but there are so many books wrought with errors, so many beloved teachers saying katana are the best swords in the world, , so much "evidence" that we can believe in that supports our "Mysteries of East" hopefulness, and pride of being a part, that it's a no win situation.

Cheers
Dan

DH
06-17-2011, 09:40 AM
One other thing you also have to add is the even more confusing aspects of...ki in use or ai(ki). You see people that obviously lack power and connection twirling about avoiding power because they have not one clue how to internally deal with power.
Their "aiki" is similar to taiji people noodling. They are empty shirts running away from being caught because when they do they are stuck.
Use of ki and spiral energy and being able to demonstrably split incoming force and take it apart at its root and either play with that division or send it back, or dump it, while standing there unmoved was the cornerstone of the art. It is the reason aikido looked so different from Koryu that it was given the name "The art of Aiki" in the first place (by a committee hosting an Embu).
The big evasive movements used for multiple attacker avoidance / setup has since erroneously become the model for what ai(ki) really was.
Aiki is balanced energy in you. Once you have achieved that balance within yourself it is easy to join their force with yours and manipulate it.

Dan

sakumeikan
06-17-2011, 09:55 AM
Joe,

I see that Greg already responded, but I would like too as well. He and I have very similar lineages. My instructor was a student of Ueshiba and Tohei. He was close with Tohei and initially went with him after the split and was one of his shihans. So I'm pretty familiar with methods and I'm also on the IP path, so to speak.

If you break IS/IP down into its components and look at what Tohei said and tried to teach, the similarities are unmistakable. His four basic principles were all about creating a relaxed, connected and balanced body that moves from the hara/dantien and uses that body to connect with and control another person. There are a lot of aspects to that, but that's the basic gist of it. The problem is that nothing he taught was very clear in relation to what you're supposed to get out of it.. You're never told that all of the exercises and things he taught were for this very specific body development. What people like Dan and Mike are doing is taking that same basic idea and cleaning it up. They're filling in the gaps, explaining things better and doing exercises and drills that are more clear with an easy to understand end result.
Dear Jason,
Thanks for your input here,First let me say I meant no disrespect when I asked Mr Streckel about his aikido pedigree.It was simply to find out whether his critique was based on sound foundations.
In my experience the Japanese method of teaching is not exactly in line with what we in the West consider to be 'Good teaching methods'
.People in the West want to know the Whys/wherefores/reasons etc of everything.In a word they want Aikido in a plate.People of my generation rarely if ever asked questions, we simply did[action orientated].Doing was the name of the game .Now people try and analyse things to the nth degree.Whole reams of internet mail are written and theories are expressed .Sometimes I just blank out when I read some stuff on this forum.Do we need to know reasons?Can we not simply practice under a competent teacher and find our own way?
Maybe I am being too simplistic here.Theory is no good without practice.
Cheers, Joe.

sakumeikan
06-17-2011, 09:57 AM
Dear Jason,
Thanks for your input here,First let me say I meant no disrespect when I asked Mr Streckel about his aikido pedigree.It was simply to find out whether his critique was based on sound foundations.
In my experience the Japanese method of teaching is not exactly in line with what we in the West consider to be 'Good teaching methods'
.People in the West want to know the Whys/wherefores/reasons etc of everything.In a word they want Aikido in a plate.People of my generation rarely if ever asked questions, we simply did[action orientated].Doing was the name of the game .Now people try and analyse things to the nth degree.Whole reams of internet mail are written and theories are expressed .Sometimes I just blank out when I read some stuff on this forum.Do we need to know reasons?Can we not simply practice under a competent teacher and find our own way?
Maybe I am being too simplistic here.Theory is no good without practice.
Cheers, Joe.
Please note I incorrectly typed Mr Steckel name wrongly.I apologise for my one poor typing skills.

DH
06-17-2011, 10:14 AM
Dear Jason,
People in the West want to know the Whys/wherefores/reasons etc of everything. In a word they want Aikido in a plate.
1. People of my generation rarely if ever asked questions, we simply did[action orientated].
2. Doing was the name of the game.
3. Do we need to know reasons?
4. Can we not simply practice under a competent teacher and find our own way?
5. Theory is no good without practice.
Cheers,
Joe.
Joe I think you just outlined the reason for the disaster of the martial arts. You didn't agree with my assessment of Chiba, but you just defined him. Let's use your model of just shut up and train under a competent teacher and all will be well...er...right?

Okay, what do we know?
Ueshiba showed up at Hombu when his kid was running the place and boomed...."This is not my aikido!"
He would then lecture them on heaven/earth/man, ki and the kotodama.
Chiba: "Nobody understood him. We couldn't wait for the old man to shut up so we could train."

There are some excellent articles about who was actually teaching those guys back then, and about the artificially inflated ranks in a short time frame.
Six years later Mr Chiba (equal to 1st kyu by todays standards but then a 6th dan) went out to teach the world...his...Aikido,
So how on earth do you extrapolate he was teaching Ueshiba's aiki?
Thus demonstrating the fallacy of your last comment.
Theory is no good without practice.
I say
Practice without theory is no good either.
Cheers
Dan

DH
06-17-2011, 10:17 AM
One other thing about ki ...being...strength, rather than ki...instead of strength: Older definition: Mind leads intent, Intent leads ki, Ki leads strength.
A neat little definition of the kanji 勁 for Jin force.
It is meant to account for intent, making strength.
勁 'Jin' is made up of the character for an underground river (巠 Jing) placed next to 'Mechanical Force' (力 Li) There are other models for what jing is as well, but to keep it simple, the idea of intent being what is happening beneath the surface, or inside the body, what is internally making up the movement to produce strength.

Dan
P.S. Note on translator:
I don't agree with many (any?) of the guys views on other things, so how accurate his translation of the kanji is, is up for grabs. I do like the idea though.