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aikidoaddict
05-14-2011, 07:03 PM
We must constantly train in the basics. I believe that the foundation of Aikido is in the basics. If your foundation is not strong, anything built upon that will subsequently be weak. I believe that the basic body movement (Tai no sabaki), hand movement, foot movement, centre line focus and alignment of feet, hips, body and arms, proper breathing, building up and the use of Ki, extension, posture, awareness, focus are all important and necessary to becoming a proficient Aikidoka.
If you rush past these things to reach the more flashy spectacular techniques, or the more spiritual enlightened part of Aikido, it will all be founded on sand and will crumble at the first hurdle.
I have met many high ranked Aikidoka around the world who, after having their wrist held tight, cannot easily perform Aikido. People of rank, who should know better, turning their backs on an attacker to get into the right position to perform the technique that they have chosen. People of rank having extreme difficulty moving an attacker when performing a technique. People of rank using brute force and dangerous methods on their chosen uke (victim) to show that they are good at Aikido. Thuggery basically, and not what I perceive Aikido to be.
Sad to see, but you can all observe this many times at many Seminars around the world, if you already haven't.
We all pass on what we learn to be true, taught to us by our guides and mentors, and if it is not so your students will follow down that same path without question.
We must therefore question our own Aikido ability and evolution whilst constantly seek to refine and better our techniques and understanding. Do not blindly follow.
Basics, basics, basics.
Enjoy the journey.

Mario Tobias
05-15-2011, 01:40 PM
I was watching one of Suganuma shihan's after-class talks with his students.

He remembers a time when one of O-sensei's students asked to the effect "why don't you teach us the secrets of aikido?" after seemingly exasperated with repetitive kihon practice, to which O-sensei replied to something like "I am teaching the secrets to you everyday."

This made a huge impact on me.

Russ Q
05-15-2011, 01:51 PM
@ Mario - You'll notice that Suganuma Sensei always teaches basics at seminars or at home. Even his uchi deshi, when conducting seminars, will teach basics...variations for sure but basic nonetheless.

abraxis
05-15-2011, 03:39 PM
We must constantly train in the basics....Enjoy the journey.

I had the privilege of attending a seminar in 1976 where Morihiro Saito Sensei said you should begin each morning with basic tenkan practice. I believe he always emphasized daily practice of the basics.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7hQtDZb2ko&feature=player_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6idg72hZ_HM

Walter Martindale
05-15-2011, 09:07 PM
I had the privilege of attending a seminar in 1976 where Morihiro Saito Sensei said you should begin each morning with basic tenkan practice. I believe he always emphasized daily practice of the basics.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7hQtDZb2ko&feature=player_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6idg72hZ_HM

In any high level performance of anything, the people who perform the best generally execute the basics, better than the rest...
Aikido, music, dance, sports, academics, combat, you name it - the people "are" the basics - or they're "one with" the basics, or however you describe it...
W

Adam Huss
06-05-2011, 11:51 AM
Our seminars include instruction from many of the junior, mid, and high ranking teachers. A friend and I commented many years ago that we both noticed the junior instructors often teach fun, complex, and robust techniques while the more senior instructors usually emphasize basic stuff (our basic body movements or techniques, or stuff often neglected).

So our sandan teachers are teaching some example of henka waza, or armbar throws while the 6th - 8th dan teach kata, basic stances, or a very basic aspect of a basic technique.

jester
06-05-2011, 01:16 PM
I have met many high ranked Aikidoka around the world who, after having their wrist held tight, cannot easily perform Aikido. People of rank, who should know better, turning their backs on an attacker to get into the right position to perform the technique that they have chosen. People of rank having extreme difficulty moving an attacker when performing a technique. People of rank using brute force and dangerous methods on their chosen uke (victim) to show that they are good at Aikido.

Who are these people? Anyone we know?

-

SeiserL
06-05-2011, 03:39 PM
Agree, agree, agree.

bleepbeep
06-07-2011, 06:47 AM
I very much agree on this one, too. When one is fluent in the basics, the other more complicated stuff aren't complicated anymore.
I can't have enough of the basics. I actually enjoy the reps. They are the very core and foundation on which other forms come from.

DH
06-07-2011, 07:34 AM
If by doing basics, people are relying on wrist twisties and throws done over and over to have you get it...well, good luck with that. I believe this is yet another dead end. There are many very serious and committed Aikido-ka who DID and DO practice the basic techniques and remain largely unimpressive..several I know even say they remain personally unimpressed with their own art.

On the other hand if you mean the exercises Ueshiba did and showed; you can watch any number of people practicing the exercises that Ueshiba did (example: Terry Dobson and Ueshiba) and it is obvious that they are not doing the same thing. Great material, not adequately explained, can lead to really crappy results.

This is not something that just plagues Aikido, it plagues all the arts. I once asked a Daito ryu teacher how many people in his art did he consider to be any good. He thought about it and said ...."Two." So many of the arts that have specific drills/ kata/ forms, whatever you want to call them for building power and have failed (whether by intent or neglect) to convey their meaning to their own membership. Thus we can end up practicing hollow forms, hoping and waiting in vain, for something really cool to happen. We need to look for meaningful ways to train that brought the founders of these arts true power, beyond techniques.

Cheers
Dan

Cliff Judge
06-07-2011, 08:49 AM
basic body movement (Tai no sabaki), hand movement, foot movement, centre line focus and alignment of feet, hips, body and arms, proper breathing, building up and the use of Ki, extension, posture, awareness, focus

Hi Paul,

I have a few questions regarding your post.

Do you consider each item in the above-quoted list to be basic? Some of them seem pretty advanced to me. For example, the concept of "building up and the use of Ki."

What are some examples of flashy techniques that you think should not be attempted before one has a sufficient grounding in the basics?

Can you also explain which types of spiritual experiences that one may think he or she has had that would actually be false if not built upon a sufficiently strong foundation of basics?

Thanks,
Cliff

Keith Larman
06-07-2011, 10:15 AM
FWIW.

"Advanced Techniques are simplified basics." the late Rod Kobayashi (and he possibly got it from someone else).

phitruong
06-07-2011, 02:26 PM
advanced techniques are just basic techniques done with the force. we, of the sith, know this. or it could be done with a stomach full of beans and cabbage... too. either way, hold on to someone's wrist tight, who knows the secret, isn't the wise thing to do. :)

Janet Rosen
06-07-2011, 05:40 PM
Advanced techniques are whichever cool ones you haven't seen before. Jeez, I thought everybody knew that!

Erick Mead
06-07-2011, 08:24 PM
"Passive acceptance of the teacher's wisdom is easy to most boys and girls. It involves no effort of independent thought, and seems rational because the teacher knows more than his pupils; it is moreover the way to win the favour of the teacher unless he is a very exceptional man. Yet the habit of passive acceptance is a disastrous one in later life. It causes man to seek and to accept a leader, and to accept as a leader whoever is established in that position."

-- Bertrand Russell.

Keith Larman
06-07-2011, 10:23 PM
"Passive acceptance of the teacher's wisdom is easy to most boys and girls. It involves no effort of independent thought, and seems rational because the teacher knows more than his pupils; it is moreover the way to win the favour of the teacher unless he is a very exceptional man. Yet the habit of passive acceptance is a disastrous one in later life. It causes man to seek and to accept a leader, and to accept as a leader whoever is established in that position."

-- Bertrand Russell.

"Those who ignore the wisdom of those who came before rarely transcend them." -- Me.

Chris Knight
06-09-2011, 07:17 AM
"if by doing basics, people are relying on wrist twisties and throws done over and over to have you get it...well, good luck with that. I believe this is yet another dead end. There are many very serious and committed Aikido-ka who DID and DO practice the basic techniques and remain largely unimpressive..several I know even say they remain personally unimpressed with their own art.

On the other hand if you mean the exercises Ueshiba did and showed; you can watch any number of people practicing the exercises that Ueshiba did (example: Terry Dobson and Ueshiba) and it is obvious that they are not doing the same thing. Great material, not adequately explained, can lead to really crappy results.

This is not something that just plagues Aikido, it plagues all the arts. I once asked a Daito ryu teacher how many people in his art did he consider to be any good. He thought about it and said ...."Two." So many of the arts that have specific drills/ kata/ forms, whatever you want to call them for building power and have failed (whether by intent or neglect) to convey their meaning to their own membership. Thus we can end up practicing hollow forms, hoping and waiting in vain, for something really cool to happen. We need to look for meaningful ways to train that brought the founders of these arts true power, beyond techniques. "

Dan, just a quick question, do you know why Ueshiba allowed ukemi and showed the principles of aikido via techniques without teaching aiki first??? Or did he??

Regards

Chris

Erick Mead
06-09-2011, 01:37 PM
"Those who ignore the wisdom of those who came before rarely transcend them." -- Me.

Nice. Epigram is a lost art.

Having said that -- Who is ignoring ? Who is being ignored ? What is the wisdom ? Was it "theirs" ? Or is it just out there to be found -- if you look? Is there only one, or more than one, aspect of transcending that wisdom, however understood ?

:)

Apropos in this context, to both current debates and Ueshiba's direct transmission:

"Wisdom is experience, but simply repeating the experience of others not only does not increase wisdom, it does not even preserve it."

DH
06-10-2011, 06:17 AM
Dan, just a quick question, do you know why Ueshiba allowed ukemi and showed the principles of aikido via techniques without teaching aiki first??? Or did he??

Regards
Chris
Hi Chris
I don't think anyone knows.
Why did his teacher, Takeda only produce 5 great teachers?
Why did Takeda say not to teach white people?
Why are the Chinese famous for....not teaching?
We can hypothosize all day long. There have been a million words devoted to it for decades. Some will say Ueshiba did teach it, others will say that he did not. Some will say "Fault of student." Others will say "Fault of teacher."
I'm past caring anymore.

We have a strange situation in the martial arts.
1. Those who don't really have IP/aiki are convinced their teachers are teaching them the real goods, and that their teachers are amazing
2. Those who either have it or have at least started to feel it, now "see." What they see, is that the real heart of the arts is all but lost. Few "have it" to any serious degree, and of those that do, the majority seem to either not know how, or are uninterested, in teaching it.

As for Ukemi, principles of aikido techniques and so on:
What comes first? Not my job to guess what he did and why or decide for you or anyone else.
Me?
I say that while it is good to learn Ukemi, and fighting principles....it is best to learn IP/aiki, which for the most part negates techniques and the need for ukemi.
But I've stopped trying to convince people with words.

IP/aiki is the single most important thing in the arts. It goes from basic to refined movement. Everything else is a shadow.
Cheers
Dan

Cliff Judge
06-10-2011, 07:49 AM
Everything else is a shadow.


Some of us study that too! :D

Tony Wagstaffe
06-10-2011, 08:40 AM
Quote: I have met many high ranked Aikidoka around the world who, after having their wrist held tight, cannot easily perform Aikido. People of rank, who should know better, turning their backs on an attacker to get into the right position to perform the technique that they have chosen...

Yep..... I would whole heartedly agree with that.... One cannot know if one does not train with full resistance. As for the basics? Goes without saying, good bodily core strength combined with the basics done at full resistance will see to that....By the time one is Shodan should be able to deal with kicks, punches, hand, thrusts elbows and that kind of atemi should be practised hundreds of times over.... as well as the standard shomen /yokomen attacks, which always look silly to me but I suppose represents a sword attack and can be effective if delivered with real intent on the right target.....
No sweat, no pain, no resistance = nothing = empty technique = collusion = delusion.....
New mantra? :rolleyes:

As the great? Bruce Lee said " you have to "feeeel it"

Mark Freeman
06-10-2011, 08:46 AM
No sweat, no pain, no resistance = nothing = empty technique = collusion = delusion.....
New mantra? :rolleyes:

Hi Tony,

welcome back, don't know how we've all survived without you ;)

regards

Mark

DH
06-10-2011, 09:08 AM
Yep..... I would whole heartedly agree with that.... One cannot know if one does not train with full resistance. As for the basics? Goes without saying, good bodily core strength combined with the basics done at full resistance will see to that....
No, no it won't. And for that matter it won't get you even close to doing aiki.
Fighting well...is fighting well. It has nothing to do with the subject of good basics to attain aiki in Aiki...do.
Otherwise ya might as well call the art, jujutsu and done with it.

Where we agree is that having some measure of IP/aiki and not knowing how to fight has brought a credibility gap. One which has been worsened by those deluded and timid souls thinking they understand IP/aiki and going about their business constantly evading attacking energy by twirling and making large body displacements and thinking they are demonstrating Ki strength. I am just as saddened by this stuff as you are.

No sweat, no pain, no resistance = nothing = empty technique = collusion = delusion.....
New mantra? :rolleyes:

The major difference between you and I, is actually having IP/aiki and then the ability to use it ...to fight with, not the end goal of effective delivery.

As the great? Bruce Lee said " you have to "feeeel it"
I agree, but the other side of that mantra is.... "Most people I have met and talked to, were convinced they already had it and got it to some degree....until they did actually.......feeeel it? ;)
And that...my friend is why ten thousand words of debate all end...in person, and why one by one...people are seeing the thruth of the real power behind these arts and training it!
All the best
Dan

Erick Mead
06-10-2011, 10:02 AM
Dan, just a quick question, do you know why Ueshiba allowed ukemi and showed the principles of aikido via techniques without teaching aiki first??? Or did he??
Regards
ChrisHi Chris
I don't think anyone knows. ... I'm past caring anymore.

As for Ukemi, principles of aikido techniques and so on:
What comes first? Not my job to guess what he did and why or decide for you or anyone else.
Me?
I say that while it is good to learn Ukemi, and fighting principles....it is best to learn IP/aiki, which for the most part negates techniques and the need for ukemi. Why is it either/ or ?--- If you claim the mantle of Ueshiba's aiki and you cannot explain the need of ukemi in the training he himself demonstrated, you cannot negate the need for ukemi in training for aiki as he intended it to be used (which I grant may be distinct from the way others may use it). If you cannot explain the purpose of ukemi in Ueshiba's intended uses of aiki principles you cannot explain why it may be dispensed with.
But I've stopped trying to convince people with words. ... and so, you cast aside a weapon and resource of enormous power... Jesus once stopped a mob stoning a woman by a few words scratched in the sand and a single question.

More prosaically, Hooker Sensei once taught a seminar. He is military man of sometimes less than gentle words. He demonstrated what he wanted practiced. Attempts were made to practice it and then he stopped and expressed his displeasure to the whole group in words something like the following:

"What the F^&% are you doing? I showed something to do. I asked you to do it. All I see are you doing whatever you feel like doing instead of what I showed you. Now, I am just wasting my time coming here and you are wasting your time being here because you just don't want to do what I showed you. If that's what you want, why don't you just tell me -- 'F^&% you, Hooker! Go home!"

"Now do it again!"

So, again everyone tried and this time worse and more f^$%ed up than the first time. and he stopped everyone again:

"What just happened? I'll tell you what happened. You let me get up here and take your center, everyone of you, with nothing more than some words. That was your mistake, and when someone does that to you -- you should have just said: "OK, Hooker, F^&% you, go home!" Many laughed, but the point was very serious.

Training is essential -- BUT -- we must indulge the power of words to both break and reassemble ideas AND to communicate them because words are the vehicle of thought. Ideas in words can build up or break men. If you have no words on a topic you can have no thoughts on that topic. And since teaching and learning by mere imitation seemingly got us to this juncture -- it will not very likely take us home.

If we are not thinking for ourselves -- working out explanations that both makes sense to us subjectively from our experience -- and working out ways to objectively describe and explain to other people in both words and deeds -- what is done and why we do it --

-- then we might as well all just "F^&%ing go home."

Erick Mead
06-10-2011, 10:09 AM
One cannot know if one does not train with full resistance. As for the basics? Goes without saying, good bodily core strength combined with the basics done at full resistance will see to that....No, no it won't. And for that matter it won't get you even close to doing aiki.
Fighting well...is fighting well. It has nothing to do with the subject of good basics to attain aiki in Aiki...do.
Otherwise ya might as well call the art, jujutsu and done with it.

Where we agree is that having some measure of IP/aiki and not knowing how to fight has brought a credibility gap. One which has been worsened by those deluded and timid souls thinking they understand IP/aiki and going about their business constantly evading attacking energy by twirling and making large body displacements and thinking they are demonstrating Ki strength.

<<Marking calendar in red -- "Agreed with Dan.">>
Hm.

phitruong
06-10-2011, 04:44 PM
Jesus once stopped a mob stoning a woman by a few words scratched in the sand and a single question.


"Can we all get along?" :)

or

"Anyone know where i can find Ki or perhap Waldo?" :D

Erick Mead
06-10-2011, 07:10 PM
"Can we all get along?" :)
or
"Anyone know where i can find Ki or perhap Waldo?" :D

'Who is without sin? -- he can throw the first stone."

I always like to think he looked at each of those in front and wrote their chief sin on the ground in front of them.

Whether one believes or not -- it is a very serious point about words and manner taking center when dealing with violence.

That is also a basic. :)

Tony Wagstaffe
06-10-2011, 08:36 PM
No, no it won't. And for that matter it won't get you even close to doing aiki.
Fighting well...is fighting well. It has nothing to do with the subject of good basics to attain aiki in Aiki...do.
Otherwise ya might as well call the art, jujutsu and done with it.

Where we agree is that having some measure of IP/aiki and not knowing how to fight has brought a credibility gap. One which has been worsened by those deluded and timid souls thinking they understand IP/aiki and going about their business constantly evading attacking energy by twirling and making large body displacements and thinking they are demonstrating Ki strength. I am just as saddened by this stuff as you are.

The major difference between you and I, is actually having IP/aiki and then the ability to use it ...to fight with, not the end goal of effective delivery.

I agree, but the other side of that mantra is.... "Most people I have met and talked to, were convinced they already had it and got it to some degree....until they did actually.......feeeel it? ;)
And that...my friend is why ten thousand words of debate all end...in person, and why one by one...people are seeing the thruth of the real power behind these arts and training it!
All the best
Dan

As I keep saying Dan, lets see it on video, you are the man with the know how? Lets see it as well as feeeeel it ;) Maybe it's what I do? jujutsu that is.... You are good at telling this to us, so why not let us see it? It's all I ask..... :)

DH
06-10-2011, 09:49 PM
As I keep saying Dan, lets see it on video, you are the man with the know how? Lets see it as well as feeeeel it ;) Maybe it's what I do? jujutsu that is.... You are good at telling this to us, so why not let us see it? It's all I ask..... :)
Not interested Tony.
Neither are you really. I see no actual interest from you when I was in your town and offered to host you for free...you don't even remember it, because you never once took it seriously. No big deal to me, I don't mind the fun, but don't think for a minute I am taking you seriously either.
If however, you decide to get serious, shoot me line. I assure you- you are NOT doing what I do, and frankly you would not last a minute with what I could to you ....at will. Yes, I just said that.
I bear you no ill will. You are me on any other day. I didn't believe in this stuff either when I first encountered it...I find it sort of a divine comedy that I am now an advocate. God has a great sense of humor.

Maybe we'll meet someday. I like to think it will be with a smile and open arms. And after...beers and dinner.
In the mean time, good on you for calling people on their crap.
Dan

DH
06-10-2011, 10:07 PM
Dan Harden wrote:
Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote:
One cannot know if one does not train with full resistance. As for the basics? Goes without saying, good bodily core strength combined with the basics done at full resistance will see to that....
No, no it won't. And for that matter it won't get you even close to doing aiki.
Fighting well...is fighting well. It has nothing to do with the subject of good basics to attain aiki in Aiki...do.
Otherwise ya might as well call the art, jujutsu and done with it.

Where we agree is that having some measure of IP/aiki and not knowing how to fight has brought a credibility gap. One which has been worsened by those deluded and timid souls thinking they understand IP/aiki and going about their business constantly evading attacking energy by twirling and making large body displacements and thinking they are demonstrating Ki strength.

<<Marking calendar in red -- "Agreed with Dan.">>
Hm.
And that's the interesting part. Those who don't get it...pretty much all think they do...till they meet someone wo actually does.
I would not rush to agree with me on that. I suspect we are looking at this from two very different positions.;)
Just say'n
Dan

Tony Wagstaffe
06-11-2011, 12:57 PM
Not interested Tony.
Neither are you really. I see no actual interest from you when I was in your town and offered to host you for free...you don't even remember it, because you never once took it seriously. No big deal to me, I don't mind the fun, but don't think for a minute I am taking you seriously either.
If however, you decide to get serious, shoot me line. I assure you- you are NOT doing what I do, and frankly you would not last a minute with what I could to you ....at will. Yes, I just said that.
I bear you no ill will. You are me on any other day. I didn't believe in this stuff either when I first encountered it...I find it sort of a divine comedy that I am now an advocate. God has a great sense of humor.

Maybe we'll meet someday. I like to think it will be with a smile and open arms. And after...beers and dinner.
In the mean time, good on you for calling people on their crap.
Dan

Have you ever thought that I might believe in it in another way? My students would often tell me that they could not feel my grip or where my "power" was coming from when they were thrown, they said it was soft yet powerful at the same time, yet at the same time non-resistant, so I am only going by what they say, no more.... as you say I might have it without realising or thinking about it as I don't, that is where we probably differ. I can resist them at will any time or stop their attempt at waza instantly, so we are not that far apart, but as you say see it from another perspective, so I'm happy to leave it at that..... Are you paying for the beers and dinner ? :) ;)

sakumeikan
06-12-2011, 08:03 AM
Not interested Tony.
Neither are you really. I see no actual interest from you when I was in your town and offered to host you for free...you don't even remember it, because you never once took it seriously. No big deal to me, I don't mind the fun, but don't think for a minute I am taking you seriously either.
If however, you decide to get serious, shoot me line. I assure you- you are NOT doing what I do, and frankly you would not last a minute with what I could to you ....at will. Yes, I just said that.
I bear you no ill will. You are me on any other day. I didn't believe in this stuff either when I first encountered it...I find it sort of a divine comedy that I am now an advocate. God has a great sense of humor.

Maybe we'll meet someday. I like to think it will be with a smile and open arms. And after...beers and dinner.
In the mean time, good on you for calling people on their crap.
Dan
Dear Dan,
I have read your comments to Tony.Personally I find them offensive. You [may I suggest ]stop issuing out statements like 'you would not last a minute etc '.Its not necessary to blow your own Big horn or try and be the fastest gun in town.You might just might just meet someone , think your the top man , and end up with egg on your chin.Remember no matter how big, good you think you are , there is always somebody bigger /better etc.
Modesty does not seem to me to be your forte.In my book anybody who makes these type of remarks should curb their ego.
You might think your the bees knees[maybe you are ]but I think you are just demeaning others and yourself.
Cheers, Joe.

DH
06-12-2011, 08:17 AM
Thank you Joe
Don't take these things seriously
Tony had no trouble telling Marc, George, me and a host of others that we are aiki bunnies and we don't get it and we would not last a minute under real stress or testing and so on and so on.....
Were you offended for us then?
I wasn't. I can at least understand where Tony is coming from and have said so many times. I wont bother reposting them all, but if you care that much go back and read how many times I also stated I understand his doubt, bear him no ill will, offered to host him free, then offered to buy dinner after.
Tony and I will get along just fine when we meet, and we will laugh and tell stories after over beer.
Thanks for your concern.
Dan

sakumeikan
06-12-2011, 08:34 AM
Thank you Joe
Don't take these things seriously
Tony had no trouble telling Marc, George, me and a host of others that we are aiki bunnies and we don't get it and we would not last a minute under real stress or testing and so on and so on.....
Were you offended for us then?
I wasn't. I can at least understand where Tony is coming from and have said so many times. I wont bother reposting them all, but if you care that much go back and read how many times I also stated I understand his doubt, bear him no ill will, offered to host him free, then offered to buy dinner after.
Tony and I will get along just fine when we meet, and we will laugh and tell stories after over beer.
Thanks for your concern.
Dan
Dear Dan ,
If your comments were made with tongue in cheek, I guess I owe you an apology.Tony says the sweetest things about everybody , I get dizzy reading his comments.He's a good lad and I get on with him fine.
Cheers, Joe.

Mary Eastland
06-12-2011, 08:46 AM
Basics are really not so basic. The building blocks of good posture, relaxation, positive mind and coming from center are involved in all technique and for me, life.
I was told if I never leave the basics I won't have to go back to them.

Today affords me another opportunity to incorporate this practice into everyday and when I feel resistance an opportunity to watch myself and correct when I am ready. I wish I was always ready the instant I need to change.

Sometimes I am so human I want to hang onto my ways while they are not working for me. Patience with myself and others on and off this journey is developed though this practice. The edges are getting chipped off just as I notice others being less prickly.

DH
06-12-2011, 08:49 AM
Dear Dan ,
If your comments were made with tongue in cheek, I guess I owe you an apology.Tony says the sweetest things about everybody , I get dizzy reading his comments.He's a good lad and I get on with him fine.
Cheers, Joe.
No worries, Joe
That's why I said go back and read all the times I defended him. I have talked and or met a bunch of guys who know him or have trained with him, They said the same thing you did. ;)
So I've had a good idea where he's coming from.
Then again it's pretty funny calling a bunch of guys who grew up grappling, and others who have done more serious testing...aiki bunnies in the first place. If you saw the pictures Marc and George took of themselves eating carrots with buck teeth, I think you will see that no one is taking this stuff seriously or getting angry. Life's too short.

Cheers
Dan

Tony Wagstaffe
06-12-2011, 02:17 PM
Thank you Joe
Don't take these things seriously
Tony had no trouble telling Marc, George, me and a host of others that we are aiki bunnies and we don't get it and we would not last a minute under real stress or testing and so on and so on.....
Were you offended for us then?
I wasn't. I can at least understand where Tony is coming from and have said so many times. I wont bother reposting them all, but if you care that much go back and read how many times I also stated I understand his doubt, bear him no ill will, offered to host him free, then offered to buy dinner after.
Tony and I will get along just fine when we meet, and we will laugh and tell stories after over beer.
Thanks for your concern.
Dan

Naaah Dan, I said that Marc and George were bunnies!! You are just subtle with words and manipulation and a lot more ego than me, that is for sure..... Have you ever thought that your reluctance to put up on video what you claim, is actually making you look and sound incredulous? You might seduce some to your way of thought and "technique", but I'm not so easily led..... I'm sure that Joe and a few others saw it that way to, but you are friendly, too friendly from my point of view, always the mark of a good salesman in my opinion.... Think about it as I'm sure you do.
I suppose to some extent we mirror each other, but I'm not so manipulative as you...... In fact I'm stupidly honest.....:rolleyes:
I'd like to ask you how you came about your "knowledge" if you would permit yourself to allow that much "insight" to what it is you do, as you were so keen to offer me a freebie why not everybody else??

DH
06-12-2011, 04:36 PM
Well, that didn't go well did it?
Here I thought you were being far more innocuous than this.
As for me...
Manipulative?
Marketing?
I don't where you got your education or training, but in my world the way to market...is...to produce video, to advertize, and to have an organization.
I don't do video, even for my own people
I don't even advertize my own dojo
and I don't have any organization at all.

Were I interested in growing...I am doing all the wrong things!
Were I interested in training with groups of people who might actually get this away from the limelight...I am spot on.

I any event, I now get the tenor of your views of me and will not converse with you further.
Dan

graham christian
06-12-2011, 04:52 PM
Well, that didn't go well did it?
Here I thought you were being far more innocuous than this.
As for me...
Manipulative?
Marketing?
I don't where you got your education or training, but in my world the way to market...is...to produce video, to advertize, and to have an organization.
I don't do video, even for my own people
I don't even advertize my own dojo
and I don't have any organization at all.

Were I interested in growing...I am doing all the wrong things!
Were I interested in training with groups of people who might actually get this away from the limelight...I am spot on.

I any event, I now get the tenor of your views of me and will not converse with you further.
Dan

Come on Dan, don't play the innocent.

I don't think it's necessary to put another down but I do think a little honesty is in order here.

You do advertise and in fact many appear on this forum advertising your events.(whether personally put up by you or not but done in your name nevertheless, with your full agreement)

Thus you do tap into this Aikido market don't you? You market your product right here on Aikiweb.

I'm not against you doing so but find it strange you insist you don't.

Regards.G.

DH
06-12-2011, 05:16 PM
You market your product right here on Aikiweb. I'm not against you doing so but find it strange you insist you don't.
Regards.G.
I'm not against it either. I will let you know if I attempt to do so in the future. Were that to happen you will se video, pictures, flyers, notices, a schedule, a syllabus, and an organization, probably with ranks. The only trouble with that is as soon as I saw all of that happening....I would quit.
I've also closed two successful Dojos as well; one in 97 and one 2002. There are people here that were members of those dojo when it happened. I've also refused dozens of students. I walked out to train privately and get better. Was that marketing too, Graham?

This is not marketing kiddo, my participaton in these discussions would actually run counter and be harmful to a marketing campaign were I to have one. I am just notifying folks these get togethers are happening. I've done 38 of these. The majority of them had no notices up that they were even happening. The others I put up had just a few spaces left when they went up.and the notices were last minute. I'm doing one in two weeks and no one here knows it is happening.
Hey, I'm not going to quibble with you. But if you think what I have been doing is marketing....be glad you're not in the advertising biz...you'd be bankrupt!
Dan

Tony Wagstaffe
06-12-2011, 05:27 PM
Well, that didn't go well did it?
Here I thought you were being far more innocuous than this.
As for me...
Manipulative?
Marketing?
I don't where you got your education or training, but in my world the way to market...is...to produce video, to advertize, and to have an organization.
I don't do video, even for my own people
I don't even advertize my own dojo
and I don't have any organization at all.

Were I interested in growing...I am doing all the wrong things!
Were I interested in training with groups of people who might actually get this away from the limelight...I am spot on.

I any event, I now get the tenor of your views of me and will not converse with you further.
Dan

A very good marketing ploy and it works well, again very manipulative in itself if I might say so..... Dan you are a very clever chap so power to you and those that are easily led, good luck...
You can check me out anytime, but there is no information on you, I find that a little strange as I'm sure a few others do, You must have had teachers and the like, so who are they? Where was your training? What ranks did you receive? You say you have grappling and MMA experience? Well lets hear your story, I'm truly interested, We only have the say so of those you have as students on this site and a few other leads who still know nothing about you? But it seems even they can't come up with any information, but just say so as they like you? Again I find this strange? Even Takeda & Ueshiba were well known and connected in their own spheres as are other martial artists yet nobody has heard or knows anything about you....
You see, I am not in MA for the money as you seem to say you aren't and are quick to defend your expenses on your seminars, as I was just doing a few sums to articulate in a previous post. Going by all concerned it was a pretty successful seminar numbers wise, so you must have made a few bob? Not everyone on video is trying to advertise but just put up their stuff, nothing wrong with that, in fact I wish a few more on this site would, even Graham does, bless his cotton cosy....
All those I have asked to put up seem to have shut up, so I can take flack , but it seems many on here can't as they are far too sensitive about what they don't know...... who really cares?
What I don't like are manipulators, whether I'm wrong or right I don't know, but my experience of martial arts "masters" would have me guessing that way.... Sadly nine times out of ten I am usually right, but that is no surprise as human nature is not always honest is it.......
The geezer from Aunkai, if I got that right, has some demo video up
so I can see what he is doing and can also see what he is doing with his body, which is not far off what I am doing with mine, or very similar....
You won't, so I cannot buy into something I am not even able to have a peek at before I decide to buy, hence my suspicion, even with your fans on this site saying how good you are, then again I have experienced something like this before and was very disappointed when I have paid to be taught something I have already learnt for myself, such is life....
Oh please don't worry about your freebie offer I knew it wasn't for real :)

DH
06-12-2011, 05:36 PM
Deleted
Good luck in your training and good bye.
Dan

graham christian
06-12-2011, 05:42 PM
I'm not against it either. I will let you know if I attempt to do so in the future. Were that to happen you will se video, pictures, flyers, notices, a schedule, a syllabus, and an organization, probably with ranks. The only trouble with that is as soon as I saw all of that happening....I would quit.
I've also closed two successful Dojos as well; one in 97 and one 2002. There are people here that were members of those dojo when it happened. I've also refused dozens of students. I walked out to train privately and get better.Was that marketing too, Graham?
This is not marketing Graham, in some respects it would actually run counter to my goals were I to have set any. Aikido folks are a portion of those who train with me. I am just notifying folks these get togethers are happening. I've done 38 of these. Most of them had no notices up that they were even happening. Most of the others I put up had just a few spaces left when they went up.and the notices were last minute.
Hey, I'm not going to quibble. But if you think what I have been doing is marketing....be glad you're not in the advertising biz...you'd be bankrupt!
Dan

Dan. To place your service or product on a public place showing when it is, where it is and how much it costs is marketing. It's nothing to do with an organization as you are a one man business offering a service for money.

It does come under marketing and it also comes under promotions.

If you think marketing is just something to do with big organizations and flyers and and the rest of it then it is you who are confused. Just putting an ad in the local paper to sell something comes under marketing. Think about it. Putting something on the market and communicating it's there and it's cost.

I notice you do have in your advertisements a schedule and you promote a sylabus. In your own words that's part of marketing. The other part of marketing and promotions ie: visible things like videos, pictures etc you decide not to have. So you have your service advertised in words but not in pictures. That's your choice.

Therefore I conclude that you do market your service by words and not by visuals for your own reasons.

In fact I would say that here on this forum if a service or product is being advertised for money then it should be under the heading of marketplace.

There's another part of business or organization (verb) I could tell you about also Dan and that's P.R. Now you definitely do that part.

Regards.G.

Tony Wagstaffe
06-12-2011, 05:47 PM
Deleted
Good luck in your training and good bye.
Dan

No I wasn't spitting in your face Dan, I noticed that you deleted very quickly as a second thought...... I just like to get to the bottom of things that's all. You see, again you have had a wee go at me and I may have brought out your true nature, but as you say good bye and good luck, and please try to be a bit more upfront, the "secret" ploy has been around for some time and doesn't work on me, and a few others I know...
God luck in your Aiki IP a new style? who knows.....?:)

graham christian
06-12-2011, 05:59 PM
Basics, Basics, Basics.

1.Advertising something to attract others to buy.=Marketing.

2.Advertising showing something to be superior in quality or of greater worth=Promotions.

3. Communicating to show how great and successful your product is and how bad the others are=PR.

4. Openly talking about the ins and outs of what you do and comparing and sharing such with others who do the same=FORUM.

Regards.G.

stan baker
06-12-2011, 07:58 PM
It is amazing how much time is wasted in speculation.If you want experience high level internal and aiki then go see for yourself. This is what real martial art folks have always done.Stop whining and check out the few good people out there.If one does that you will discover what Dan is saying is true.

stan

phitruong
06-12-2011, 09:01 PM
I always like to think he looked at each of those in front and wrote their chief sin on the ground in front of them.

Whether one believes or not -- it is a very serious point about words and manner taking center when dealing with violence.


i thought most of them were illiterate so they would have stop and scratched their heads and said "Huh??"

i kinda preferred "superior fire power" when taking center. it really is a model for peace and harmony. :D

Tony Wagstaffe
06-13-2011, 01:31 PM
i thought most of them were illiterate so they would have stop and scratched their heads and said "Huh??"

i kinda preferred "superior fire power" when taking center. it really is a model for peace and harmony. :D

:D

Tony Wagstaffe
06-13-2011, 02:48 PM
It is amazing how much time is wasted in speculation.If you want experience high level internal and aiki then go see for yourself. This is what real martial art folks have always done.Stop whining and check out the few good people out there.If one does that you will discover what Dan is saying is true.

stan

You would do Stan as "disciples" often do, fine from a loyalty point of view, but we only have your word and a few others on this site that have been seduced by his charms, yet we still have no information on Dan other than his own and his own "fans"..... Which is producing nothing :hypno: I keep asking who are Dans teachers as he was shown this also, yet we can find no reference to them. He openly admits this....:confused:

DH
06-13-2011, 04:54 PM
... we only have your word and a few others on this site that have been seduced by his charms, yet we still have no information on Dan other than his own and his own "fans".....
316 Students who trained at my dojo.
762 Seminar attendees.
All seduced by my charms? This just gets better and better. I have to tell Bill this tomorrow. Maybe, I'll blow him a kiss, and then run!

Add Ark
Add Mike
Add the Japanese Shihans (one, a life long friend of doshu) going outside the art to learn the same stuff.
Add Ikeda going to two different people, both outside the art,
Add a host of 5th dans, 4th dans, and students of various rank-mostly yudansha- from a variety of arts...
All going outside the art to learn the same stuff

You have to-by sheer logic- now address all of these others who are all going outside of aikido to find the same stuff.

Care to explain to all of us:
1.How did this disparate group of Aikido, Karate, Chinese, and MMA students and teachers from different continents all got together with men
who
2. Themselves don't even know each other ..
to
3. Learn a related body of work they some how magically know
and
4. All these teachers.... got conned together?

Your logic falls flat on it's face.

Try this
Dear Mr. Shihan or teacher of 35 years. You don't get it and I don't think you have the brains or judgment to see that all of this is and was in Aikido. I already know all of this stuff. And since you yourself are now teaching some of the new stuff you are learning outside of the art and openly discussing that it came from outside the art as well. I think you too have become a con artist, huckster and snake oil salesman.
Tony Wagstaffe

Try addressing that to Ikeda or any of the other teachers from Biranki to Aikikai to ASU. See how much traction you get out of that ill conceived logic.

Dan

graham christian
06-13-2011, 04:57 PM
No I wasn't spitting in your face Dan, I noticed that you deleted very quickly as a second thought...... I just like to get to the bottom of things that's all. You see, again you have had a wee go at me and I may have brought out your true nature, but as you say good bye and good luck, and please try to be a bit more upfront, the "secret" ploy has been around for some time and doesn't work on me, and a few others I know...
God luck in your Aiki IP a new style? who knows.....?:)

Tony. May I introduce you to a spiritual principle translated into a rule of thumb in life. All good things are never justified, justifications are only given to hide something.

When you nick a biscuit from your Mums cupboard you then have to hide it and keep it secret and if found out or asked why you were in the kitchen you have to justify it. Very simple really.

Now if you had permission in the first place you wouldn't have to hide anything or justify anything either. You just say what you did.

It amazes me how people fall for such nonsenses as 'stealing knowledge' and justify it by saying it's because the teachers were holding things back. Somehow in their reasoning that makes stealing good. Notice though that they are then the same people who are scared of others stealing their special way. Hence we have the developement of koryus 'protecting' the truth.

Regards.G.

Chris Knight
06-14-2011, 03:31 AM
Graham G, it appears you have some kind of agenda against Dan...
your rambling posts aren't very nice to read.

Whats clear to me is this; Eric, Tony, Graham have never trained with Dan.

I haven't, my Sensei has, a military man of 20 years working as a doorman 4 nights a week, having met the vast majority of Ushi Deschi available to him. If he's impressed by Dan's AIKI, so am I

Why shout down someone who's trying to help us all?

Cordially

graham christian
06-14-2011, 04:23 AM
Graham G, it appears you have some kind of agenda against Dan...
your rambling posts aren't very nice to read.

Whats clear to me is this; Eric, Tony, Graham have never trained with Dan.

I haven't, my Sensei has, a military man of 20 years working as a doorman 4 nights a week, having met the vast majority of Ushi Deschi available to him. If he's impressed by Dan's AIKI, so am I

Why shout down someone who's trying to help us all?

Cordially

Chris. I do not have an agenda against Dan or anyone. Why are my posts uncomfortable for you?

I have never insulted him personally yet I have pulled him up on some points, on some views of his. Yes I have challenged some of his views and if you find that uncomfortable then so be it.

Why do I do it? To clear certain points for better understanding. As someone else said if you are told or asked or invited to buy something it's a good idea for the seller to give you a good picture of what they are selling. When they do not they create suspicion and distrust. If they cannot see this then they are not taking responsibility for their own actions are they?

Thus I say that Dan may believe doing things in such a manner is right but I believe it can only result in the ongoing scene.

If car manufacturers used his way of doing things then we would never see any details about the cars we want to buy would we? We would only therefore be able to go on hearsay and reports.

Now if I was to pay first and then go and try out a car and low and behold find it to be just what I'm looking for then that only makes it even more bizarre.

Regards.G.

Chris Knight
06-14-2011, 05:01 AM
Chris. I do not have an agenda against Dan or anyone. Why are my posts uncomfortable for you?

I have never insulted him personally yet I have pulled him up on some points, on some views of his. Yes I have challenged some of his views and if you find that uncomfortable then so be it.

Why do I do it? To clear certain points for better understanding. As someone else said if you are told or asked or invited to buy something it's a good idea for the seller to give you a good picture of what they are selling. When they do not they create suspicion and distrust. If they cannot see this then they are not taking responsibility for their own actions are they?

Thus I say that Dan may believe doing things in such a manner is right but I believe it can only result in the ongoing scene.

If car manufacturers used his way of doing things then we would never see any details about the cars we want to buy would we? We would only therefore be able to go on hearsay and reports.

Now if I was to pay first and then go and try out a car and low and behold find it to be just what I'm looking for then that only makes it even more bizarre.

Regards.G.

Your posts aren't related to martial arts or aikido/aiki and more of nitpicking about conspiracy theories, marketing ploys and general tittle tattle. How about you go for a test drive, and then come back and let us know? These aren't highly publicised/marketed sessions with Dan, which is why I missed out on going. Maybe he's just not interested in teaching people who don't like him? and make it obvious?? which is why these top level people dont digress information for fear of letting numpties get hold of it

This isn't aimed at yourself, just numpties in general

DH
06-14-2011, 05:22 AM
Why do I do it? To clear certain points for better understanding. As someone else said if you are told or asked or invited to buy something it's a good idea for the seller to give you a good picture of what they are selling. When they do not they create suspicion and distrust. If they cannot see this then they are not taking responsibility for their own actions are they?
Thus I say that Dan may believe doing things in such a manner is right but I believe it can only result in the ongoing scene.
If car manufacturers used his way of doing things then we would never see any details about the cars we want to buy would we? We would only therefore be able to go on hearsay and reports.

Now if I was to pay first and then go and try out a car and low and behold find it to be just what I'm looking for then that only makes it even more bizarre.

Regards.G.
Graham
Like Tony, you are either alluding to or outright saying that I am a con man and that people are being conned. You have no grounds for stating these things and have made no intelligent argument.
Who are you two, to make any statement at all? If you don't want to attend, then don't. You have no grounds to call the judgment of those who do into doubt, nor my own efforts that are being received so well.

This forum and its some of it's members apparently approve of such baseless accusations, I do not.

* What I teach at seminars is described in the brochure.
* I have never read an Aikido seminar brochure that was as detailed as mine.
* The many write ups have explained it further, after the fact.
* Of 782 attendees I have had three people who were not satisfied.
* Most people have stated it was too much information, not less.
* I have an extremely high return rate

It has not escaped my attention, that you do not address the people who attend these seminars...directly (many of whom are senior teachers in the art).
The reason you and Tony don't address them, is that there is no credible way for either of you to intelligently dismiss their expertise, judgment and involvement, so instead you wisely ignore any direct attacks on such a wide range of people.
You are in fact calling all of them....fools.
This will be it for you and me. I'll not speak with you again.

Dan

Nicholas Eschenbruch
06-14-2011, 05:37 AM
On a sightly humorous note, it would be great if Graham Christian, Tony Wagstaffe and Alberto Italiano had been invented by some IT whizzkid troll to keep the IS debate going on forever after it had already been quite, well, dead for some people, resolved for others :-)

No hard feelings please... just could not help myself.

DH
06-14-2011, 05:53 AM
On a sightly humorous note, it would be great if Graham Christian, Tony Wagstaffe and Alberto Italiano had been invented by some IT whizzkid troll to keep the IS debate going on forever after it had already been quite, well, dead for some people, resolved for others :-)

No hard feelings please... just could not help myself.
Hi Nicholas
If you read through, you will see their so called "positions" are very fluid. There is no real communication going on with these guys, they're drive by shooters. Other than addressing some of their rather bizarre and poorly thought through points, discussion with them is a waste of time.
Cheers
Dan

chillzATL
06-14-2011, 05:53 AM
On a sightly humorous note, it would be great if Graham Christian, Tony Wagstaffe and Alberto Italiano had been invented by some IT whizzkid troll to keep the IS debate going on forever after it had already been quite, well, dead for some people, resolved for others :-)

No hard feelings please... just could not help myself.

An Army of Bots Controlled By One Guy! I'm pretty sure it's not possible to code a Tony though, as interesting as that might be.

graham christian
06-14-2011, 06:07 AM
Graham
Like Tony, you are either alluding to or outright saying that I am a con man and that people are being conned. You have no grounds for stating these things and have made no intelligent argument.
Who are you two, to make any statement at all? If you don't want to attend, then don't. You have no grounds to call the judgment of those who do into doubt, nor my own efforts that are being received so well.

This forum and its some of it's members apparently approve of such baseless accusations, I do not.

* What I teach at seminars is described in the brochure.
* I have never read an Aikido seminar brochure that was as detailed as mine.
* The many write ups have explained it further, after the fact.
* Of 782 attendees I have had three people who were not satisfied.
* Most people have stated it was too much information, not less.
* I have an extremely high return rate

It has not escaped my attention, that you do not address the people who attend these seminars...directly (many of whom are senior teachers in the art).
The reason you and Tony don't address them, is that there is no credible way for either of you to intelligently dismiss their expertise, judgment and involvement, so instead you wisely ignore any direct attacks on such a wide range of people.
You are in fact calling all of them....fools.
This will be it for you and me. I'll not speak with you again.

Dan

Dan. That's fine by me either way.

I do address whomever by the way.

Secondly I do not call you a con man or allude that you are.

I will say that con men do hide things and create a mystery by doing so and justify why. So as I said when you do such things it raises lot's of suspicions but apparently you dismiss this fact.

Thirdly there is a major difference between you and a con man. A con man doesn't give a good product whereas by all accounts you do.

Those who have attended be it yours or anyone else's and have given good reports I have acknowledged as such so don't put me in that category either thank you very much.

It's the continuous mantra I find amusing, unnecessary and misplaced.

Do you actually realize what it is about your presentation of ip annoys some as well as it's presentation by many others? Do you?

I doubt very much that you do.

Regards.G.

Tony Wagstaffe
06-14-2011, 06:09 AM
Graham
Like Tony, you are either alluding to or outright saying that I am a con man and that people are being conned. You have no grounds for stating these things and have made no intelligent argument.
Who are you two, to make any statement at all? If you don't want to attend, then don't. You have no grounds to call the judgment of those who do into doubt, nor my own efforts that are being received so well.

This forum and its some of it's members apparently approve of such baseless accusations, I do not.

* What I teach at seminars is described in the brochure.
* I have never read an Aikido seminar brochure that was as detailed as mine.
* The many write ups have explained it further, after the fact.
* Of 782 attendees I have had three people who were not satisfied.
* Most people have stated it was too much information, not less.
* I have an extremely high return rate

It has not escaped my attention, that you do not address the people who attend these seminars...directly (many of whom are senior teachers in the art).
The reason you and Tony don't address them, is that there is no credible way for either of you to intelligently dismiss their expertise, judgment and involvement, so instead you wisely ignore any direct attacks on such a wide range of people.
You are in fact calling all of them....fools.
This will be it for you and me. I'll not speak with you again.

Dan

Dan
I want to know who your teachers were or are? Where and how you came about your theories and see some of your goods. Some real history would surely be welcome......Graham makes some good points yet you avoid them by by making the same or similar accusations you pin on me. Sorry to you if you find my directness insufferable, but that is just me love me or hate me (Marmite?) It's no wonder that people are suspicious, what's to say you did a few seminars with the Aunkai geezer, cottoned onto it pretty quick and then thought, this is a good screw and there are enough wannabes out there who will fall for it. Yeh it works so they are bound to fall for it, bouncers, so called Shihan and all the other titles that abound today, one of the reasons I have never chased titles, as to me and I suspect many others on here they don't really mean much at the end of the day.
People get my respect by being upfront.... You may be a nice guy Dan but you are to slick and subtle for my liking and all the "secrecy" bothers me as I know it bothers others. You also sound very overconfident about what you supposedly offer which is always a good marketing ploy as it gets the confidence of others who are not so sure about themselves, to the point that you say you can "take" me....
Maybe you can, I couldn't care less, been there done it big time, so nothing new there either, you can't win 'em all. As Joe said there is always someone better, so that kind of thing doesn't bother me as that is certainly boasting in my book....
As I said, I like getting to the bottom of things no matter what others say. If I sounded a bit offensive there was a reason behind that to, to see what your reaction would be, I was right and you have done well to show your true colours..... well done.... Any real budo man would have simply ignored it.......

Regards

Tony

graham christian
06-14-2011, 06:25 AM
On a sightly humorous note, it would be great if Graham Christian, Tony Wagstaffe and Alberto Italiano had been invented by some IT whizzkid troll to keep the IS debate going on forever after it had already been quite, well, dead for some people, resolved for others :-)

No hard feelings please... just could not help myself.

Ha ha. That's quite witty actually. I'm drawn to the mystery but after much questioning my curiosity has been satisfied.

Regards.G.

graham christian
06-14-2011, 06:32 AM
Hi Nicholas
If you read through, you will see their so called "positions" are very fluid. There is no real communication going on with these guys, they're drive by shooters. Other than addressing some of their rather bizarre and poorly thought through points, discussion with them is a waste of time.
Cheers
Dan

Oi! Bizarre is my word how dare you steal it! Ha, ha.

Nice to know I'm a drive by shooter though. Does that make you a chinese takeaway?

Chris Knight
06-14-2011, 06:36 AM
Ha ha. That's quite witty actually. I'm drawn to the mystery but after much questioning my curiosity has been satisfied.

Regards.G.

Ignorance is bliss, as they say

graham christian
06-14-2011, 06:38 AM
Ignorance is bliss, as they say

So is understanding.

Chris Knight
06-14-2011, 06:42 AM
So is understanding.

Understanding what??

graham christian
06-14-2011, 06:48 AM
Understanding what??

Understanding anything is bliss my friend. He who says ignorance is bliss merely validates ignorance. Another limited saying.

Chris Knight
06-14-2011, 06:52 AM
Understanding anything is bliss my friend. He who says ignorance is bliss merely validates ignorance. Another limited saying.

I wasn't asking about anything, I was asking about the discussion in hand

Chris

graham christian
06-14-2011, 07:00 AM
I wasn't asking about anything, I was asking about the discussion in hand

Chris

Wow. I have lots of understandings now. Where would you like me to start? Plus why do you ask?

lbb
06-14-2011, 07:07 AM
Hey, guys? When you're exchanging a series of one-liners like that (or even multi-liners), doesn't that suggest to you that you ought to take it to private message? It's no longer a forum discussion at that point.

Chris Knight
06-14-2011, 07:11 AM
Wow. I have lots of understandings now. Where would you like me to start? Plus why do you ask?

For a fellow Brit your hard work Graham... I thought it was a simple enough question.

Anyway, in relation to Aikido, from my very limited view of an excellent art, I dont feel like the basics on their own will give us back the art of Ueshiba. Someone who could control energy from a single touch generating spiral forces through every essence of his body and absorbing energy on impact. Not just redirecting... The list goes on but this, I believe is the arguement of I/S guys?? Which is why I have enbarked on solo training to enhance my training, before I fall into any bad habits which are harder to untrain.

just my take

Chris Knight
06-14-2011, 07:12 AM
Hey, guys? When you're exchanging a series of one-liners like that (or even multi-liners), doesn't that suggest to you that you ought to take it to private message? It's no longer a forum discussion at that point.

sorry mary, back to topic

graham christian
06-14-2011, 07:51 AM
For a fellow Brit your hard work Graham... I thought it was a simple enough question.

Anyway, in relation to Aikido, from my very limited view of an excellent art, I dont feel like the basics on their own will give us back the art of Ueshiba. Someone who could control energy from a single touch generating spiral forces through every essence of his body and absorbing energy on impact. Not just redirecting... The list goes on but this, I believe is the arguement of I/S guys?? Which is why I have enbarked on solo training to enhance my training, before I fall into any bad habits which are harder to untrain.

just my take

Thank you. I like your view on Aikido and your view on Ueshiba. I also like your view on not just redirecting....

So I understand that and concur. The basics not giving you that I cannot comment on for I don't know what you call basics.

I understand only that the basics as given to you in place 'a' leads you to look elsewhere.

If due to such circumstances the ip guys give you what you need then obviously that's good is it not? I understand that.

Personally I am amused by people who think Aikido is the way of deflecting energy.

That's THE argument of the ip guys? Ha ha. Then why don't they say so? Hell, thats a basic I teach from day one. No secrecy, no promoting it as x, y or z.

Well, people I know know this. People in some Aikijutsu know this, people in hapkido and various arts know this.

Finally, bad habits being hard to untrain? I disagree. I have met many Aikidoka over the years who have come looking for that difference they appear to be missing. At first they feel they have wasted a lot of time but I tell them they have wasted nothing.

With a better understanding they soon correct anything they see in themselves as a bad habit. You will develope 'bad habits' in whatever form of training you do until you reach a very high standard. Then the chances are that you will still have some but much fewer. So don't fall for that old nonsense.

Regards.G.

Chris Knight
06-14-2011, 08:07 AM
Thank you. I like your view on Aikido and your view on Ueshiba. I also like your view on not just redirecting....

So I understand that and concur. The basics not giving you that I cannot comment on for I don't know what you call basics.

I understand only that the basics as given to you in place 'a' leads you to look elsewhere.

If due to such circumstances the ip guys give you what you need then obviously that's good is it not? I understand that.

Personally I am amused by people who think Aikido is the way of deflecting energy.

That's THE argument of the ip guys? Ha ha. Then why don't they say so? Hell, thats a basic I teach from day one. No secrecy, no promoting it as x, y or z.

Well, people I know know this. People in some Aikijutsu know this, people in hapkido and various arts know this.

Finally, bad habits being hard to untrain? I disagree. I have met many Aikidoka over the years who have come looking for that difference they appear to be missing. At first they feel they have wasted a lot of time but I tell them they have wasted nothing.

With a better understanding they soon correct anything they see in themselves as a bad habit. You will develope 'bad habits' in whatever form of training you do until you reach a very high standard. Then the chances are that you will still have some but much fewer. So don't fall for that old nonsense.

Regards.G.

Dont quote me on the IP guys Graham, that's just a guess..
Are you unmoveable in every direction, under any amount of pressure, in any posture?
Can you absorb a person's energy on touch until they literally are 'paralysed, and can be thrown whilst you keep constant body form?
When people grab you, are they thrown with no movement, using spiraling energy or just via leading??

All interesting questions.... and something I'll be training for 20+ years before I can start to comprehend. I don't think many people can say they've mastered Ueshiba's art though. As they say, you have to feel it to understand??

ps/.. i'm totally happy with my current aikido training as i do it for a hobby, but in practical application im looking outside the box to get an integrated martial art and if I have to look to the far east then so be it lol

graham christian
06-14-2011, 08:17 AM
Dont quote me on the IP guys Graham, that's just a guess..
Are you unmoveable in every direction, under any amount of pressure, in any posture?
Can you absorb a person's energy on touch until they literally are 'paralysed, and can be thrown whilst you keep constant body form?
When people grab you, are they thrown with no movement, using spiraling energy or just via leading??

All interesting questions.... and something I'll be training for 20+ years before I can start to comprehend. I don't think many people can say they've mastered Ueshiba's art though. As they say, you have to feel it to understand??

Yeah, and I've got a cape to prove it. Ha ha. Seriously though all those questions are interesting and are now on the topic of my understanding of such things and regarding them what I can or cannot do personally. This is where what Mary says is pertinent.

It's for a different thread or for private messaging.

Regards.G.

jester
06-14-2011, 08:23 AM
Are you unmovable in every direction

That's physically impossible unless you have 3 or more legs. :D

-

lbb
06-14-2011, 08:32 AM
That's physically impossible unless you have 3 or more legs. :D

-

Maybe not even then, unless you humpty-dumpty the definition of "every". My sensei likes to tell a story about his first teacher saying to him once, "So, you think you can't be moved?"

My sensei was a strong young guy who had been training for a bit and who thought his fundamentals were quite strong, including his stance and centeredness and all that good stuff -- so he said, "Yes," and then braced himself for some kind of strong physical attack.

Instead, his sensei -- who was quite a bit smaller than him -- stuck a finger in his ear.

To hear my sensei tell it, rarely has anyone hit the mat so fast or so hard.

Chris Knight
06-14-2011, 08:43 AM
That's physically impossible unless you have 3 or more legs. :D

-

really? not from what i've seen

gates
06-14-2011, 08:55 AM
If the dust has settled a little bit.....

In seeking out some 'basic' solo exercises that I may be able to gain something useful from I found this video:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIfUgUfs2FM

I am interested if anybody is able to explain in some detail the more subtle aspects of the of this apparently basic exercise, knowing that the mastery is in the detail, especially in "basic" practice.

I can see kokyu as a whole body movement 'coiling' and a weight underside - centre to centre connection between uke and nage.
Anybody care to elaborate or share their understanding?


(A novice Aikidoka and IP virgin)
Keith

mrlizard123
06-14-2011, 09:00 AM
That's physically impossible unless you have 3 or more legs. :D

-

That was always my standpoint previously but if you add in "for all intents and purposes" in front of unmoveable (I'm sure a car could move you for example) then I have had to change my viewpoint...

DH
06-14-2011, 09:17 AM
That was always my standpoint previously but if you add in "for all intents and purposes" in front of unmoveable (I'm sure a car could move you for example) then I have had to change my viewpoint...
Hi RIch
Easy to now understand their confusion eh? Tough to continually have to listen to it, you see the hollowness of their argument, but what can you do. They don't know...what they don't know, and for some they simply cannot imagine there is a body of work that either they or their teachers didn't know or know how to teach.
Cheers
Dan

jester
06-14-2011, 09:36 AM
really? not from what i've seen

Then you need to take a judo class! You have 2 main lines of off balance. Down the line of your feet and perpendicular to your feet.

If you are strong in one direction, you are weak in the other.

Think of a power lifter squatting a few hundred pounds. As he's lifting the weight up, push with 1 finger on his waist from behind which is perpendicular to his force (his force is going up).

Bam! he will fall over backwards every time. That principal is at the core of the Aikido I learned. You can only put force in one direction. Yes it's easy to alter your force to compensate from a single push from one direction but Judo principals don't work that way.

If you're not experienced in Judo or Tomiki Aikido then you might not understand this principal.

-

Chris Knight
06-14-2011, 09:45 AM
thats very interesting Tim, and to the uneducated like myself, it will work every time, but I think you need to look deeper martially and you will find that this principle doesn't always apply

O Sensei was immoveable by any number of martial artists including judoka and wrestlers. Dont you think this body skill cant be re-learnt??

Tony Wagstaffe
06-14-2011, 09:52 AM
thats very interesting Tim, and to the uneducated like myself, it will work every time, but I think you need to look deeper martially and you will find that this principle doesn't always apply

O Sensei was immoveable by any number of martial artists including judoka and wrestlers. Dont you think this body skill cant be re-learnt??

Could be that as he was so short he had a very low centre of gravity that made it seem he was immovable?
I remember doing judo with a guy who was a "dwarf" and my "god" he was very awkward to shift and brilliant at judo. I saw him throw the biggest guys on the mat with no trouble at all. He was strong and wirey and always had a smile!! I think I know why..... :)

Chris Knight
06-14-2011, 09:58 AM
Could be that as he was so short he had a very low centre of gravity that made it seem he was immovable?
I remember doing judo with a guy who was a "dwarf" and my "god" he was very awkward to shift and brilliant at judo. I saw him throw the biggest guys on the mat with no trouble at all. He was strong and wirey and always had a smile!! I think I know why..... :)

from what i've researched so far, no tony...definately not
but i'm not in a position to advise anyone :(

chillzATL
06-14-2011, 10:01 AM
If the dust has settled a little bit.....

In seeking out some 'basic' solo exercises that I may be able to gain something useful from I found this video:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIfUgUfs2FM

I am interested if anybody is able to explain in some detail the more subtle aspects of the of this apparently basic exercise, knowing that the mastery is in the detail, especially in "basic" practice.

I can see kokyu as a whole body movement 'coiling' and a weight underside - centre to centre connection between uke and nage.
Anybody care to elaborate or share their understanding?

(A novice Aikidoka and IP virgin)
Keith

start a new thread and lets see what we get. You're not going to get anything out of this one! :)

jester
06-14-2011, 10:11 AM
O Sensei was immoveable by any number of martial artists including judoka and wrestlers. Dont you think this body skill cant be re-learnt??

The unmovable trick is just that. Lifting someone up or trying to push them over is just using 1 line of off balance. It's very easy to redirect someones force. Force redirection works when only 1 line of force is being applied.

For instance I can sit in a chair on only the 2 back legs and can make it very hard for you to push me over backwards. This is just physics at work and I have to do a little trick to make it happen.

Everything O'sensei did can be explained by physics. Take a look at this video: http://youtu.be/XoDK3XuvZWw

When someone pushes on him, he pushes perpendicular or down the line of their force and throws them. Other times people are just falling for him.

This is the way I see it and all of my training revolves around this basic principal. All of the Tomiki Aikido 17 use this principal and those are the building blocks for all the Koryu Katas.

-

mrlizard123
06-14-2011, 10:31 AM
Hi RIch
Easy to now understand their confusion eh? Tough to continually have to listen to it, you see the hollowness of their argument, but what can you do. They don't know...what they don't know, and for some they simply cannot imagine there is a body of work that either they or their teachers didn't know or know how to teach.
Cheers
Dan

My only disappointment is that it isn't a magic pill/shortcut, I was hoping it was more like I'd do a weeks meditation and become o sensei the second... :D (un?)fortunately it seems that it isn't "magic" and just needs some time put in to it like any other skill but it's knowing what solo exercises etc are useful to promote these skills.

I could do with the magic to go with it though; anyone who can teach me to bend time so I get an extra couple hours extra training in a day please drop me a line!

On the subject of you being a con man, I was sure you'd be more stern before I met you then found out you were a nice guy and even enjoyed a few beers with us. I probably conned myself but I'm going to blame you ;)

lbb
06-14-2011, 12:13 PM
thats very interesting Tim, and to the uneducated like myself, it will work every time, but I think you need to look deeper martially and you will find that this principle doesn't always apply

So what makes the laws of physics suspended on an aikido mat, such that force is no longer a vector?

Cliff Judge
06-14-2011, 01:25 PM
Then you need to take a judo class! You have 2 main lines of off balance. Down the line of your feet and perpendicular to your feet.

If you are strong in one direction, you are weak in the other.

Think of a power lifter squatting a few hundred pounds. As he's lifting the weight up, push with 1 finger on his waist from behind which is perpendicular to his force (his force is going up).

Bam! he will fall over backwards every time. That principal is at the core of the Aikido I learned. You can only put force in one direction. Yes it's easy to alter your force to compensate from a single push from one direction but Judo principals don't work that way.

If you're not experienced in Judo or Tomiki Aikido then you might not understand this principal.

-

Did you actually mean to push the weightlifter from behind to make him fall backwards? Sounds strange.

Anyway, if your weightlifter had developed sufficient internal power, then you wouldn't be able to move him. Because, I guess, he'd actually be exerting power in all directions ("supported on all sides") or he'd instantly shift to adjust to your force.

jester
06-14-2011, 01:49 PM
Did you actually mean to push the weightlifter from behind to make him fall backwards? Sounds strange.


Yes, this will over arch his back and he'll fall backwards. Same thing you can do to someone when you set them up for a rear choke. Similar to what the guy does here: http://youtu.be/faVHho42v9w

You push the hips forward and his structure collapses backward. You can push with your hand or I've seen people use their knee.

And no, the weightlifter couldn't adjust his posture and still lift the weights. Similar to this clean and jerk seen here: http://youtu.be/eV1BiAyANHk

The weightlifter was a simple example to try and explain a point. If you don't believe it, lift the weights yourself and let someone push on your lower back. Please post the results on youtube!!

There is timing involved also but I hope you see the point I was making.

-

Cliff Judge
06-14-2011, 02:14 PM
Yes, this will over arch his back and he'll fall backwards. Same thing you can do to someone when you set them up for a rear choke. Similar to what the guy does here: http://youtu.be/faVHho42v9w

You push the hips forward and his structure collapses backward. You can push with your hand or I've seen people use their knee.

And no, the weightlifter couldn't adjust his posture and still lift the weights. Similar to this clean and jerk seen here: http://youtu.be/eV1BiAyANHk

The weightlifter was a simple example to try and explain a point. If you don't believe it, lift the weights yourself and let someone push on your lower back. Please post the results on youtube!!

There is timing involved also but I hope you see the point I was making.

-

I kinda see what you are talking about. I am not sure how useful it is for martial purposes to study what happens when you sneak up on somebody lifting weights and try to push them over, though. I've been training for a couple of years to deal with someone who is actively trying to stay centered and balanced, and I've never felt the kind of thing you describe.

jester
06-14-2011, 03:05 PM
I kinda see what you are talking about. I am not sure how useful it is for martial purposes to study what happens when you sneak up on somebody lifting weights and try to push them over, though. I've been training for a couple of years to deal with someone who is actively trying to stay centered and balanced, and I've never felt the kind of thing you describe.

It is 100% usefull!! Without it you only have a list of techniques with no principals holding them together!!

You are locking the spine up and getting Uke on his heels. It's a basic principal. Pushing on the chin, a wrist lock, a push in the lower back all do the same thing to Uke!!

I look for the basic principal at work and group them together.

For instance Kote-Mawash leans the body forward onto the toes. So does an elbow lock etc. etc.

-

Cliff Judge
06-14-2011, 03:18 PM
It is 100% usefull!! Without it you only have a list of techniques with no principals holding them together!!

You are locking the spine up and getting Uke on his heels. It's a basic principal. Pushing on the chin, a wrist lock, a push in the lower back all do the same thing to Uke!!

I look for the basic principal at work and group them together.

For instance Kote-Mawash leans the body forward onto the toes. So does an elbow lock etc. etc.

-

So why does uke have to be holding a heavy weight over his head, again?

Interesting pedagogy. Kind of reminds me of the ki society stuff I saw once. These are those tomiki exercises, right? Do you ever get around to learning about aiki in this system?

jester
06-14-2011, 03:28 PM
So why does uke have to be holding a heavy weight over his head, again?

Interesting pedagogy. Kind of reminds me of the ki society stuff I saw once. These are those tomiki exercises, right? Do you ever get around to learning about aiki in this system?

Wow, are you really that daft? :crazy: I hope this is your attempt at a joke.

Cliff Judge
06-14-2011, 03:41 PM
Wow, are you really that daft? :crazy: I hope this is your attempt at a joke.

Not trolling, just trying to learn more about what you are on about.

- You are describing those basic Tomiki exercises, right?
- What is the deal with weight lifting in your descriptions?
- Do you ever train aiki?

jester
06-14-2011, 04:15 PM
Not trolling, just trying to learn more about what you are on about.

Sorry but it sounded like that when I read it.

- You are describing those basic Tomiki exercises, right?
No, these are the 17 basic techniques. You are thinking of either the walking or the releases. The basic 17 all contain different principals and can be broken up and rearranged to make hundreds of variation.

It's up to the student to recognize this and to be able to understand how to put them together.

- What is the deal with weight lifting in your descriptions?
I said you can't apply force in 2 directions. The weightlifter is just an analogy of how a persons body will collapse if you put them in a particular position. His force is going up and you hit him perpendicular to that force. If someone is pushing you, he is weak perpendicular to his push. Same thing with a punch.

- Do you ever train aiki?
If by Aiki you mean blending then yes. The blending is where you off balance uke by extending his force slightly. Then you hit it either down the line of his force or perpendicular to that force.

In the photo below, Uke's force was extended down the line of his feet and Tori is throwing square to Uke's feet where Uke is weak.

http://tomiki-aikido.wikispaces.com/file/view/ShomenAte.jpg/33793255/ShomenAte.jpg

-

Tom H.
06-14-2011, 05:56 PM
I kinda see what you are talking about. I am not sure how useful it is for martial purposes to study what happens when you sneak up on somebody lifting weights and try to push them over, though.

Cliff, I apologize for jumping into the middle of a conversation, but this is an interesting scenario.

Weightlifting involves one body & one nervous system, and most lifting movements are nominally intended to be stable only in-and-of themselves against inertia and gravity. Martial movements, on the other hand, involve the back-and-forth of two or more reactive neuro-muscular systems, often in the context of a larger martial scenario (e.g. battlefield). For example, it is clear to me that the best way to push a heavy cart up a hill is not the best way to push a 2-legged human in a judo match or in aikido randori. For example, if you were to go all-out pushing in judo, you would open yourself to being thrown in a way that doesn't readily apply to the cart-pushing.

The scenario Tim raised of pushing a weightlifter from behind is an excellent example because the result he describes--falling over backwards--depends on a particular common reaction in the body of the person being pushed. In my limited experience, IP/aiki training creates new posture, movement, and reaction patterns that change how a person responds to force applied by other people. These patterns were selected for their martial utility, and may or may not be relevant to other movement activity like cart-pushing or olympic-weightlifting.

(I'm a big fan of the olympic lifts for body conditioning, but training those lifts will not give you heavy hands, a ghosty feel in judo, or non-telegraphed punches. But you can't hold that against the o-lifts, because they aren't even *trying* to develop those martially-relevant qualities. That's what the IP/aiki training is for!)

In my opinion these IP/aiki posture, movement, and reaction patterns are hard to learn, explain, or see on video because they are "software" patterns trained into your body. Sometimes aspects are visible--it's easy to learn to spot a hip-powered turn or raised shoulders, for example--but other aspects require hands-on because the visual clues may be subtle, absent, or down right contradictory (e.g. someone may appear to be in an unstable position, but they feel immovable upon push-testing, or what may appear to be a light tap is actually a knockout).

I also think the existence of these IP/aiki effects (and therefore the validity of the principles behind them as well as the validity of the training that creates them) is hard to even *believe in* before they have been personally encountered because aiki effects can be so bizarre, counter to common sense, or outside the realm of one's "this is what humans do". For example, the first time someone's push on me disappeared because I was neutralizing, I literally stopped to ask "why did you stop pushing?". Of course they hadn't stopped, but that's what it felt like to me, while the other person described me as immovable. Another example: I distinctly remember the first time someone moved me without giving me a force--that I could feel--to resist. I was clearly being moved even though I could not identify the force moving me. (I asked for a couple repeats and was never able to even *find* a force to resist against, much less get ahead of that force to do anything about it.)

Tom

(To be clear, I'm not talking about anything metaphysical or outside the scope of western sports science. It's just that martial movement is not so simple. See Grey Cook's physical therapy textbook "Movement" for an introduction to the complexity present even in a simple functional movement pattern like the unloaded squat.)

graham christian
06-14-2011, 06:36 PM
Tom. May I say a very good explanation. Well done.

I can quite categorically state having delved into the matter somewhat
that I see it's potential and from where it comes and what it's all about.

Very useful stuff.

For those who have read my posts I can also say my Aikido is not ip as given here. So if nothing else it shows there is also a spiritual way of Aikido different to ip.

All good, all using the same vehicle called Aikido.

Regards.G.

Cliff Judge
06-14-2011, 07:06 PM
Thanks, Tom, I don't mindfully train any kind of "you can't move me" type stuff personally, but I can tell you that when I have my hands on someone who knows what they are doing, there are no straight lines, and the center around which everything turns is not where it feels to be, nor is it where it looks to be from a third person perspective.

Tim - thanks for the information. If that's the kind of training you like, please keep it up!

Tony Wagstaffe
06-14-2011, 08:18 PM
316 Students who trained at my dojo.
762 Seminar attendees.
All seduced by my charms? This just gets better and better. I have to tell Bill this tomorrow. Maybe, I'll blow him a kiss, and then run!

Add Ark
Add Mike
Add the Japanese Shihans (one, a life long friend of doshu) going outside the art to learn the same stuff.
Add Ikeda going to two different people, both outside the art,
Add a host of 5th dans, 4th dans, and students of various rank-mostly yudansha- from a variety of arts...
All going outside the art to learn the same stuff

You have to-by sheer logic- now address all of these others who are all going outside of aikido to find the same stuff.

Care to explain to all of us:
1.How did this disparate group of Aikido, Karate, Chinese, and MMA students and teachers from different continents all got together with men
who
2. Themselves don't even know each other ..
to
3. Learn a related body of work they some how magically know
and
4. All these teachers.... got conned together?

Your logic falls flat on it's face.

Try this
Dear Mr. Shihan or teacher of 35 years. You don't get it and I don't think you have the brains or judgment to see that all of this is and was in Aikido. I already know all of this stuff. And since you yourself are now teaching some of the new stuff you are learning outside of the art and openly discussing that it came from outside the art as well. I think you too have become a con artist, huckster and snake oil salesman.
Tony Wagstaffe

Try addressing that to Ikeda or any of the other teachers from Biranki to Aikikai to ASU. See how much traction you get out of that ill conceived logic.

Dan

That's strange Dan I'm not ranked Shihan, only 4th dan, not interested in having a rank, shank or what ever you care to mention, and who are these people that you are have supposed to have met that know me and think so well of me? I'm curious? Well as of the orgs and people you talk about I have no contact, only what I've heard, seen and read on here. Some are great some not so great and most are in the USA? Who's Ikeda? Heard of and seen Chiba Sensei and like his style, also Isoyama Sensei to, He is a nice fellow. As for all these others sorry haven't a clue. All my stuff I have come to my own conclusion, most of it is from the Tomiki or Shodokan style of aikido which much of the traditional world tend to dismiss as aikido, with the exception of a few.... me I'm just a beginner with a bit of real experience, you? A braggard with no history to tell of as it seems nobody seems to know....? Except your fans in these orgs and a few in the UK.... hmmm?
Reminds me of a story when in Singapore 1970 in an outside bar in Boogy strasa when a bunch of American Sailors came along and one started bragging about the size of his navy and how was the smallest navy in the world. Muscles, a short thin wiry OEM sparky jumped up and said how is the second effing best?. There was a right old ding dong, blood, shit and snot all over the show, the place/ bar was wrecked and so were those American sailors, we were a bit miffed and a few ripped ears, busted noses and ripped uniforms. The good part was we all shook hands, all forked out to the damage to the bar, the braggard was out cold and had to get medical attention, seems one of his own belted him over the bonks with a bottle for being such a pratt.....
Sound similar Dan?

Rabih Shanshiry
06-14-2011, 09:03 PM
Tony,

Could you please drop it or take it offline? You had an opportunity to expose Dan for the fraud you think he is when he was on your side of the pond. No amount of keyboard bullying will change the fact that you chose not to meet Dan in person when a direct invitation was on the table.

And FYI: outside of workshops where expenses need to be covered, Dan has historically offered his time and teaching without charge. Most snakeoil salesmen I know dont give their stuff away for free. So If it's a con, it's either a really bad one or it's pure genius.

We all know your point of view on this topic. If you can't contribute something constructive to the OP, at least allow others to get it back on track.

Thank you.
...rab

graham christian
06-14-2011, 09:13 PM
Tony. On the topic of i/p or i/s or whatever I now see where they are coming from and that kind of internal strength conditioning has been around for donkeys years. So I see no qualms with it per se.

Saying that's what Ueshiba did and Tohei did I disagree with though.

More to the point though, the dressing up and presentation, the attitude, the secrecy, the boastfulness. These are the things I dislike.

A friend of mine took his wife and kids to live in some communal village in cornwall only two years ago. He went because he said they are more his kind of people. They are kind of new age types yet all working and professional. Every week there are seminars in all kinds of things spiritual from yoga to pilates to who knows what.

He kept phoning me to come down and do some Aikido as they are all in to that kind of thing. (his words) I always politely refused and it confused him because he didn't believe me when I told him theyre not my kind of spiritual.

Anyway to cut a long story short, after a year they left and came back to london a bit disillusioned and wondering how I knew they would be. You see they went there with one impression of spiritual and found something else. They found that everyone went to all these different seminars and courses yet all they did was find some principle from one that they liked and found beneficial, go away and research some more about it, repackage it and present it as a new phenomena based on old principles and make a business.

They were now the experts, people came to their courses, their asked to do presentations etc etc.

Business! Of course these people can justify theyve done this that and the other and come up with a better way of delivering, a new way hallelujah. Personally I see them as dilettantes. Dillettantes with a business mind skill hence they're always practicing and learning and developing but do have the ability to package and promote and present in a usable form.

Sound familiar?

Not my way of doing things and as to the efficacy of it well you know my view. So that's my final input on that touchy side of the equasion. I'll refrain from any more discussion on it from now on.

Regards.G.

hughrbeyer
06-14-2011, 09:51 PM
I think Tom gets some sort of prize for "sanest post in the aiki wars" (#97).

Tim, your descriptions of Tomiki aikido correspond pretty much exactly with my experience of the style. I would characterize it as lots of emphasis on body mechanics; little emphasis on ki; no emphasis at all on IS/IP.

The "perpendicular to the line of the feet" thing is less emphasized in other styles simply because it's less important (though it's been brought up in my own ASU dojo). There are other ways to move uke. And over here we've been training to handle force coming from any direction, especially the ones where we're naturally weakest.

Mary, the laws of physics aren't suspended on the mat, but there are laws and laws. Frankly, taking a force-vector mechanical approach to something as complex as a human body, full of rigid bits and stretchy bits and bendy bits and puffy bits, combining with another body just as complex--it would be like trying to do chemistry using only nuclear physics. Yes, it's valid, at some level--but hardly practical and certainly not the best tool for the job.

Tony Wagstaffe
06-15-2011, 04:07 AM
Tony,

Could you please drop it or take it offline? You had an opportunity to expose Dan for the fraud you think he is when he was on your side of the pond. No amount of keyboard bullying will change the fact that you chose not to meet Dan in person when a direct invitation was on the table.

And FYI: outside of workshops where expenses need to be covered, Dan has historically offered his time and teaching without charge. Most snakeoil salesmen I know dont give their stuff away for free. So If it's a con, it's either a really bad one or it's pure genius.

We all know your point of view on this topic. If you can't contribute something constructive to the OP, at least allow others to get it back on track.

Thank you.
...rab

Ok Rab point taken, tit for tat as far as I'm concerned. He started it I ended it.... End of story...... amen
All I really want to know is who his teachers are and see something up on video, it's all I was asking for, but it seemed to upset him?
Sorry....

Tony Wagstaffe
06-15-2011, 04:29 AM
Cliff, I apologize for jumping into the middle of a conversation, but this is an interesting scenario.

Weightlifting involves one body & one nervous system, and most lifting movements are nominally intended to be stable only in-and-of themselves against inertia and gravity. Martial movements, on the other hand, involve the back-and-forth of two or more reactive neuro-muscular systems, often in the context of a larger martial scenario (e.g. battlefield). For example, it is clear to me that the best way to push a heavy cart up a hill is not the best way to push a 2-legged human in a judo match or in aikido randori. For example, if you were to go all-out pushing in judo, you would open yourself to being thrown in a way that doesn't readily apply to the cart-pushing.

The scenario Tim raised of pushing a weightlifter from behind is an excellent example because the result he describes--falling over backwards--depends on a particular common reaction in the body of the person being pushed. In my limited experience, IP/aiki training creates new posture, movement, and reaction patterns that change how a person responds to force applied by other people. These patterns were selected for their martial utility, and may or may not be relevant to other movement activity like cart-pushing or olympic-weightlifting.

(I'm a big fan of the olympic lifts for body conditioning, but training those lifts will not give you heavy hands, a ghosty feel in judo, or non-telegraphed punches. But you can't hold that against the o-lifts, because they aren't even *trying* to develop those martially-relevant qualities. That's what the IP/aiki training is for!)

In my opinion these IP/aiki posture, movement, and reaction patterns are hard to learn, explain, or see on video because they are "software" patterns trained into your body. Sometimes aspects are visible--it's easy to learn to spot a hip-powered turn or raised shoulders, for example--but other aspects require hands-on because the visual clues may be subtle, absent, or down right contradictory (e.g. someone may appear to be in an unstable position, but they feel immovable upon push-testing, or what may appear to be a light tap is actually a knockout).

I also think the existence of these IP/aiki effects (and therefore the validity of the principles behind them as well as the validity of the training that creates them) is hard to even *believe in* before they have been personally encountered because aiki effects can be so bizarre, counter to common sense, or outside the realm of one's "this is what humans do". For example, the first time someone's push on me disappeared because I was neutralizing, I literally stopped to ask "why did you stop pushing?". Of course they hadn't stopped, but that's what it felt like to me, while the other person described me as immovable. Another example: I distinctly remember the first time someone moved me without giving me a force--that I could feel--to resist. I was clearly being moved even though I could not identify the force moving me. (I asked for a couple repeats and was never able to even *find* a force to resist against, much less get ahead of that force to do anything about it.)

Tom

(To be clear, I'm not talking about anything metaphysical or outside the scope of western sports science. It's just that martial movement is not so simple. See Grey Cook's physical therapy textbook "Movement" for an introduction to the complexity present even in a simple functional movement pattern like the unloaded squat.)

Yes that is an interesting description of sorts Tom, quite eloquent if you don't mind me saying....

Carl Thompson
06-15-2011, 06:48 AM
(A novice Aikidoka and IP virgin)
Keith

How do you know you're an IP virgin? Isn't that the flip-side of It Has To Be Felt?

Carl

Cliff Judge
06-15-2011, 07:39 AM
Some days, I'd certainly like to belt people over the bonks with a bottle.

ewolput
06-15-2011, 07:59 AM
Tim, your descriptions of Tomiki aikido correspond pretty much exactly with my experience of the style. I would characterize it as lots of emphasis on body mechanics; little emphasis on ki; no emphasis at all on IS/IP.



When Tadayuki Satoh (judo and aikido) visited our dojo, he mentioned the use of "inner movement of the waist" to perform a sumi otoshi. You cannot say in Tomiki Aikido the emphasis is on body mechanics , other elements like "inner movement" makes a technique working in a randori enviroment. Using only inner movement will not work, but good body mechanics (basics) and inner body movement can create a succesfull technique.

Basic techniques are not the 17 techniques for randori. Tomiki sensei created judo taiso or yawara taiso to introduce aikido to judo people. Those judo taiso exercises are the core of Tomiki's aikido and not the 17-hon no kata, which are the techniques allowed in shiai. Without good basic and inner movement, those techniques will not work.

Eddy Wolput

jester
06-15-2011, 08:48 AM
Basic techniques are not the 17 techniques for randori. Tomiki sensei created judo taiso or yawara taiso to introduce aikido to judo people. Those judo taiso exercises are the core of Tomiki's aikido and not the 17-hon no kata, which are the techniques allowed in shiai. Without good basic and inner movement, those techniques will not work.

Eddy Wolput

I don't do Tanto Randori at all but the Basic 17 are the building blocks for all other techniques. With them you can make hundreds of variations. Judo Taiso is important and we do it every class along with the releases but the 17 contains most of those movements anyway.

We apparently see it different but that happens all the time. :p

-

Hanna B
06-15-2011, 10:32 AM
Is it the normal thing at Aikiweb, these days. That a discussion about aikido basics turns into a discussion about Dan Harden?

If yes, why is it so?

john.burn
06-15-2011, 11:13 AM
Because Tony is fixated with the guy, i think secretly it's a bromance :D

Tony Wagstaffe
06-15-2011, 11:34 AM
When Tadayuki Satoh (judo and aikido) visited our dojo, he mentioned the use of "inner movement of the waist" to perform a sumi otoshi. You cannot say in Tomiki Aikido the emphasis is on body mechanics , other elements like "inner movement" makes a technique working in a randori enviroment. Using only inner movement will not work, but good body mechanics (basics) and inner body movement can create a succesfull technique.

Basic techniques are not the 17 techniques for randori. Tomiki sensei created judo taiso or yawara taiso to introduce aikido to judo people. Those judo taiso exercises are the core of Tomiki's aikido and not the 17-hon no kata, which are the techniques allowed in shiai. Without good basic and inner movement, those techniques will not work.

Eddy Wolput

As always Eddy you have explained it correctly, I have also been led astray on that old argument from a technical point of view, however I have also made plenty of "discoveries" to some point the endless variations that one can find from the junanna alone as Tom says. I'm sure you have..... I think most in T/S aikido will come to conclusions in many ways as I see slight variations in waza, koryu and junnanna both. I think people will eventually find what works best for them. Once something becomes too rigid in it's application is when it becomes "conveyor belt production line aikido"
In the beginning right up to Sandan possibly, correct form kata wise, I think is quite important, but I have seen variations from teacher to teacher in how it is performed depending on varying body structure and how it was taught to them, also finding variations in my own teachers.... I tried them all and found for myself a combination that suited me. When teaching I have found that what suits one does not necessarily suit another so try to help them adjust to what helps them apply good waza but also keeping the form correct kata wise.....

Tony Wagstaffe
06-15-2011, 11:42 AM
Because Tony is fixated with the guy, i think secretly it's a bromance :D

No John I've broken the "engagement" you are free to take him how you want...... have fun......:hypno: :yuck:

Nicholas Eschenbruch
06-15-2011, 12:32 PM
Is it the normal thing at Aikiweb, these days. That a discussion about aikido basics turns into a discussion about Dan Harden?

If yes, why is it so?

Good question... I guess people who need a lot of attention found out that it is easy to get it that way. After a while, no one cares anymore how tough you were when you were young, or who the first person to perfom aikido on the Orkney islands was, so you have to find another way to get bandwith. So you turn to IS to get attention, because you noticed some people feel passionate about it, you bs along, and then sadly Dan cannot keep his mouth --- ouch, no, dont kick me, no.... (hopping away bunny fashion, but on one leg, breathing hard through the toes of the other)

thisisnotreal
06-15-2011, 12:41 PM
Nicholas your breath must stink in the summer..

Tony Wagstaffe
06-15-2011, 01:06 PM
Nicholas your breath must stink in the summer..

:D:D :D

dps
06-15-2011, 01:21 PM
More information on Aikido basics via Tomiki style Aikido

http://tomikiaikido.blogspot.com/2011/02/tagatana-dosa-walk.html

dps

Tony Wagstaffe
06-15-2011, 01:37 PM
Tony. On the topic of i/p or i/s or whatever I now see where they are coming from and that kind of internal strength conditioning has been around for donkeys years. So I see no qualms with it per se.

Saying that's what Ueshiba did and Tohei did I disagree with though.

More to the point though, the dressing up and presentation, the attitude, the secrecy, the boastfulness. These are the things I dislike.

A friend of mine took his wife and kids to live in some communal village in cornwall only two years ago. He went because he said they are more his kind of people. They are kind of new age types yet all working and professional. Every week there are seminars in all kinds of things spiritual from yoga to pilates to who knows what.

He kept phoning me to come down and do some Aikido as they are all in to that kind of thing. (his words) I always politely refused and it confused him because he didn't believe me when I told him theyre not my kind of spiritual.

Anyway to cut a long story short, after a year they left and came back to london a bit disillusioned and wondering how I knew they would be. You see they went there with one impression of spiritual and found something else. They found that everyone went to all these different seminars and courses yet all they did was find some principle from one that they liked and found beneficial, go away and research some more about it, repackage it and present it as a new phenomena based on old principles and make a business.

They were now the experts, people came to their courses, their asked to do presentations etc etc.

Business! Of course these people can justify theyve done this that and the other and come up with a better way of delivering, a new way hallelujah. Personally I see them as dilettantes. Dillettantes with a business mind skill hence they're always practicing and learning and developing but do have the ability to package and promote and present in a usable form.

Sound familiar?

Not my way of doing things and as to the efficacy of it well you know my view. So that's my final input on that touchy side of the equasion. I'll refrain from any more discussion on it from now on.

Regards.G.

You know Graham, I was thinking much the same, you have been upfront with me and that I can respect, however my directness does have a way at getting to the bottom of things, be it abrasive for some and hilarious for others, I suppose it much depends on the thickness of one's skin and skull. I don't consider myself the best "aikidoka" or "aikijudoka" (depending on how you look at it) in the world, nor am I the worst, but at least I'm honest in how I think.
P taking aside you seem an allright kind of bloke ;) keep up the good posts, some you leave me bewildered :hypno: , some quite sound:) but at least entertaining....
Regards
T

hughrbeyer
06-15-2011, 03:32 PM
When Tadayuki Satoh (judo and aikido) visited our dojo, he mentioned the use of "inner movement of the waist" to perform a sumi otoshi. You cannot say in Tomiki Aikido the emphasis is on body mechanics , other elements like "inner movement" makes a technique working in a randori enviroment. Using only inner movement will not work, but good body mechanics (basics) and inner body movement can create a succesfull technique.

Thanks for this. Until this, I hadn't heard anything that sounded at all related to the IP/IS stuff in Tomiki aikido. Now I need to come train with you. :) Or maybe with Satoh Sensei. I wonder if there's a difference in how things are taught on the other side of the pond?

Thomas Campbell
06-15-2011, 07:38 PM
If the dust has settled a little bit.....

You hope in vain . .. :p

In seeking out some 'basic' solo exercises that I may be able to gain something useful from I found this video:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIfUgUfs2FM

I am interested if anybody is able to explain in some detail the more subtle aspects of the of this apparently basic exercise, knowing that the mastery is in the detail, especially in "basic" practice.

Looks like your query about Okamoto's basic Roppokai exercise was lost in the dust, Keith. You might want to restart it as its own thread, or perhaps direct your question via PM to Howard Popkin, who does have solid experience with Daito Ryu Kodokai and Daito Ryu Roppokai, and is very good with analysis and explanation.

What I can say is that, from my very limited experience and understanding, Okamoto's exercise seems to tune in on some aspects of aiki age--as well as the opening moves to shiko as Dan Harden teaches it--specifically with respect to the wrists, forearms and shoulders. This version of shiko is rooted in Daito ryu, but Dan teaches it in a way that incorporates his understanding of internal connection and spiraling.

Nicholas Eschenbruch
06-16-2011, 12:41 AM
Nicholas your breath must stink in the summer..

When an aikibunny like me reaches middle age, their breath starts to smell of silage and half-digested carrots. Summer has nothing to do with it :-) And that's only part of the smell problem.... ah well, you dont want to know. I use strong Tibetan incence to cover it up.

Back to breathing through my hands.

graham christian
06-16-2011, 04:24 AM
You know Graham, I was thinking much the same, you have been upfront with me and that I can respect, however my directness does have a way at getting to the bottom of things, be it abrasive for some and hilarious for others, I suppose it much depends on the thickness of one's skin and skull. I don't consider myself the best "aikidoka" or "aikijudoka" (depending on how you look at it) in the world, nor am I the worst, but at least I'm honest in how I think.
P taking aside you seem an allright kind of bloke ;) keep up the good posts, some you leave me bewildered :hypno: , some quite sound:) but at least entertaining....
Regards
T

Ha ha. ditto on the last part, it's all good fun. You know what I was thinking last night after training? I was seeing how we train differently and on some points and maybe many (who knows) may be completely at odds with each other but on one famous topic we're comrades in arms. It is amusing if nothing else.

Suddenly a thought and a tune came to mind and had me laughing my socks off. There was you and me (cartoon style) and in came the tune from Ghostbusters but instead of the words Ghostbusters in the song it came out as 'Who ya gonna call?--Scam busters!!!'

Thought that would give you a giggle.

Oh, and here's a nice spiritual validation from me to you. You do have an x factor quality which many don't have and is very pertinent to martial arts. Prepare to be hypno'd ha ha.

From my view you have a much misunderstood and quite rare quality and that is warrior spirit.

Maybe you should make a course out of it, a nice scam.

Regards.G.

Tony Wagstaffe
06-16-2011, 04:41 AM
Ha ha. ditto on the last part, it's all good fun. You know what I was thinking last night after training? I was seeing how we train differently and on some points and maybe many (who knows) may be completely at odds with each other but on one famous topic we're comrades in arms. It is amusing if nothing else.

Suddenly a thought and a tune came to mind and had me laughing my socks off. There was you and me (cartoon style) and in came the tune from Ghostbusters but instead of the words Ghostbusters in the song it came out as 'Who ya gonna call?--Scam busters!!!'

Thought that would give you a giggle.

Oh, and here's a nice spiritual validation from me to you. You do have an x factor quality which many don't have and is very pertinent to martial arts. Prepare to be hypno'd ha ha.

From my view you have a much misunderstood and quite rare quality and that is warrior spirit.

Maybe you should make a course out of it, a nice scam.

Regards.G.

With jam?......:D One lump or two? ;) :)

graham christian
06-16-2011, 05:04 AM
With jam?......:D One lump or two? ;) :)

What??? Us folks like condensed milk in our tea if you don't mind, oh and bacon sani. (of course officially I don't eat pork)

My God, how ignorant can you be? Pull yourself together man , you're British!!!

john.burn
06-16-2011, 05:42 AM
Maybe you should make a course out of it, a nice scam.

A bit like this you mean... "Martial Arts & Aikido tuition itself will be completely free of charge!!"

followed by

"Prospective applicants will be expected to lay down a small deposit (Non returnable) and will be asked to pay for one month of overhead fees a month in advance ..... The amount to be decided once costs are established and worked out.....
We approximate that as a "once only" £10 deposit and £24 - £25 a month dojo fees, Once or twice weekly training sessions"

Hmmm, free tuition but you pay overhead fees? WTF! Sounds like a scam to me so I think he's already doing it. Snake Oil by any other name me thinks. If you base that on one class then it's about £6 a lesson... Hmmmmm, with all of the hours Dan put in with people outside of the training and on the seminar itself, probably worked out the same rate or less - plus Dan would have refunded the seminar fee too if anyone was so aggrieved with what he was teaching your deposit is non-refundable.

I've bowed out of the ki wars on here but Tony is a huge fan of allegedly calling it as he see's it. Well, all of the above is off his own website for all to see. I'm not sticking up for Dan on here but fairs fair Tony, if people are coming along to you, and you are teaching them, and money is changing hands from them to you (after the £10 no refundable deposit no less) then seriously, you don't think they're paying you and it's all free tuition?

My dojo doesn't make money, it pays for it's overheads but to market the fact that you aren't charging for tuition but charge dojo fees? seriously? Just say there's a monthly fee to train, your ploy doesn't add up, of course people are paying you to teach, you're just using that to cover costs, like most any place. Why try to market it as something it's not?

DH
06-16-2011, 07:15 AM
You hope in vain . .. :p
Looks like your query about Okamoto's basic Roppokai exercise was lost in the dust, Keith. You might want to restart it as its own thread, or perhaps direct your question via PM to Howard Popkin, who does have solid experience with Daito Ryu Kodokai and Daito Ryu Roppokai, and is very good with analysis and explanation.

What I can say is that, from my very limited experience and understanding, Okamoto's exercise seems to tune in on some aspects of aiki age--as well as the opening moves to shiko as Dan Harden teaches it--specifically with respect to the wrists, forearms and shoulders. This version of shiko is rooted in Daito ryu, but Dan teaches it in a way that incorporates his understanding of internal connection and spiraling.
No Tom, Aiki age is but one thing happening. In reality there is an array of forces at work on contact. The arms are what you "see" in that opening move in shiko and they demonstrate some simple and yet profound measure of what is going on...on the inside. They are connected and moving with everything else, and display different qualities.
That's another compelling argument for what Hong style was saying about Chansi jin being the one jin and not peng. That the spiral contains all jins: in, out, up, down, leading, warding, pressing down, lifting etc. It's an interesting argument.
In any event, in a similar way, it's why you can feel the back of my knee and feel aiki age happening and meanwhile my opposite arm is leading and sendng someone else off in a different directon. Or you can have guys grabbing either side of you and one guy getting whipped up and off to the right and the other being sucked in and down on the left with one movement.

Anyway, one of the exercises Okomoto privately does and Howard did to me, was meant to test and display a connection and use of Kua, mingmen/ Dantian...to off someone, without the shoulders/ hands being used much at all...then...the body with the arms. As has been noted on certain other boards...these thgins are just not shown to everyone. I get a kick out of certain people who say this or that is not in an art, the information certain groups are getting from these folks is B.S. from the start. It's just more dissinformation from the unknowing, being called fact.

When it comes to perceived motion and how you manage it, there is no division of power without the driver being Dantian. If you remember the first rules of the hands returning to the body What is pulling on those hands? Without the connection, you just end up pulling like your average MAer. Once you consider what is leading/ pulling on what that aiki comes to the fore.
Going back to that Okomoto exercise; it interesting how soft it is, and how it enables you to test just the body only or the whole system. It becomes quite evident where someone's skill is at, when they are getting bounced out, depressed or popped sideways.

What is evident in the body conditioning remains consistent without change, as the application level moves forward into weapons or MMA. It's kinda neat to go from weapons, to wrist grabs, to 4oz gloves with one body method.
All the best
Dan

gregstec
06-16-2011, 08:20 AM
Wow, go away for a few days and come back to find things have not changed with all the usual suspects politely exchanging their views :)

Anyway, to get back on track with the basics - IMO, what Dan is teaching should be at the core of basic teachings in ALL aiki arts - it simply develops the foundation that an aiki system is built on.

Since I am here, I also would like to just comment briefly on the marketing and con man accusations made recently concerning Dan. To be blunt, it is absolute BS ! - the man is honest and generous to a fault - any further discussion in this area by those that do no know Dan will be wrong and considered in extremely bad taste.

Now I am sure that last paragraph will result in some thinking "here is another one of Dan's disciples coming to defend him from the attack of the self righteous naysayers" - well, not true. Let me tell you all a little bit about Dan's camp. First, disciple kind of indicates we are followers, nothing can be further from the truth since all of Dan's people I have met are either leaders of their groups, totally independent, or just plain rogues out doing their own thing because what they have been getting from the main stream of their arts just was not cutting it for them. We are the type of people that don't take the 'kool aid" and don't buy 'snake oil' - actually, we greatly despise those that dispense with that type of BS and feel sorry for those that have fallen in those traps.

The bottom line on all of this is that Dan has his reasons for no videos and has stated so a few time in some of his posts and is getting tired of hearing the same requests over and over again - respect the man's position on this and just move on. If you don't believe in what he is saying, say so and just move on. He is not building an organization and probably is going to walk away from public training soon because of the BS. Dan is just a guy who found something special from all his searching and training in IS and simply thought it would be great to share it with those that have his passion for it - if that is not you, so be it, just move on.

Greg

phitruong
06-16-2011, 08:44 AM
greg, you could have said it shorter, for example, www.moveon.org :)

besides, basics are boring and tedious. we are budo people. we have the need to kick ass and take name. we have the belt and the hakama, right? we can do advance stuffs right off the bat. so lets not belabor on the basic stuffs. ;)

gregstec
06-16-2011, 09:37 AM
greg, you could have said it shorter, for example, www.moveon.org :)

:yuck: -I hate politics - :)

Greg

Thomas Campbell
06-16-2011, 10:34 AM
No Tom, Aiki age is but one thing happening. In reality there is an array of forces at work on contact. The arms are what you "see" in that opening move in shiko and they demonstrate some simple and yet profound measure of what is going on...on the inside. They are connected and moving with everything else, and display different qualities.
That's another compelling argument for what Hong style was saying about Chansi jin being the one jin and not peng. That the spiral contains all jins: in, out, up, down, leading, warding, pressing down, lifting etc. It's an interesting argument.
In any event, in a similar way, it's why you can feel the back of my knee and feel aiki age happening and meanwhile my opposite arm is leading and sendng someone else off in a different directon. Or you can have guys grabbing either side of you and one guy getting whipped up and off to the right and the other being sucked in and down on the left with one movement.

Anyway, one of the exercises Okomoto privately does and Howard did to me, was meant to test and display a connection and use of Kua, mingmen/ Dantian...to off someone, without the shoulders/ hands being used much at all...then...the body with the arms. As has been noted on certain other boards...these thgins are just not shown to everyone. I get a kick out of certain people who say this or that is not in an art, the information certain groups are getting from these folks is B.S. from the start. It's just more dissinformation from the unknowing, being called fact.

When it comes to perceived motion and how you manage it, there is no division of power without the driver being Dantian. If you remember the first rules of the hands returning to the body What is pulling on those hands? Without the connection, you just end up pulling like your average MAer. Once you consider what is leading/ pulling on what that aiki comes to the fore.
Going back to that Okomoto exercise; it interesting how soft it is, and how it enables you to test just the body only or the whole system. It becomes quite evident where someone's skill is at, when they are getting bounced out, depressed or popped sideways.

What is evident in the body conditioning remains consistent without change, as the application level moves forward into weapons or MMA. It's kinda neat to go from weapons, to wrist grabs, to 4oz gloves with one body method.
All the best
Dan

Thanks for the detailed clarification and expansion on the Okamoto exercise, Dan. The emphasis on the myriad contexts for application of one body method is something I'm appreciating more and more. I'm also getting the hang of training certain elements all the time--sitting, standing, driving. It becomes something of a sweet obsession--better than coffee and (I never thought I would say this :eek: ) better than Belgian ale. It is certainly better for you than Belgian ale.

DH
06-16-2011, 10:46 AM
Hi Tom
Yes, the single body method can be daunting because it is ingrained and a constant. Now that you can see it and have felt it, imagine me back in the 90's arguing with that guy over on e-budo about his take on aiki being small motor skills and failing in a fight. I'm speachless(well, not really) and trying to figure out where they went so far into the weeds. Same again when I see aikido people fall apart under sustained pressure. The body method shouldbe consistent and either extremely controlling or very damaging, without any change. I don't know if you saw me demo at Georges from aikido to MMA with the same method. It usually answers a lot of doubts about aikis true potential.
all the best
Dan

lbb
06-16-2011, 12:57 PM
Since I am here, I also would like to just comment briefly on the marketing and con man accusations made recently concerning Dan. To be blunt, it is absolute BS ! - the man is honest and generous to a fault - any further discussion in this area by those that do no know Dan will be wrong and considered in extremely bad taste.

You can consider any post however you want, that's your privilege. But do you really think you need to know someone personally to observe that they are engaged in marketing?

Erick Mead
06-16-2011, 12:57 PM
Looks like your query about Okamoto's basic Roppokai exercise was lost in the dust, ... Okamoto's exercise seems to tune in on some aspects of aiki age-- The motion is a viscously slow version of what occurs if you use the center to throw the arms out with "backspin," basically, and they reach natural limits and whip back and rise naturally upward. The whole connection throughout the body is chain-like (in tension, anyway). You can do it with a chain, too, if you like -- or an uke, if you prefer.

It is easier to see the dynamic done larger and more energetically -- but easier to refine more slowly and mindfully, as with kokyu tanden ho exercises. Both work the same, saving only that the slow tends to revert to compression action instead of tension rather easily. That has a different flavor of dynamic, as well as passing through a neutral point that sacrifices kuzushi.and loses control of the unification with the uke.

FWIW.

Aikisage is the reverse, whipping downward.

gregstec
06-16-2011, 01:37 PM
You can consider any post however you want, that's your privilege. But do you really think you need to know someone personally to observe that they are engaged in marketing?

No, you do not need to know someone personally to form that opinion if it is obvious there are clear business goals and objectives.

However, if you do know someone personally, you will know if they are marketing (or not) for business purposes; especially in the context of an accused 'snake oil' con man.

AlexF
06-16-2011, 02:03 PM
Hi
Just wanted to echo Gregs comments about Dan & the people who train with him or attend his seminars (those I've met at least). I met him for the first time recently in London a few weeks back. I found him to be very generous not only with his information & time, money wasnt his motivator, he just wanted to train & help, thats it. He wasn't trying to convert me to anything, he wasnt bothered if you took the information & wanted to incorporate it into your chosen martial art, no trying to sell anything, the result of the training sold itself. He didnt claim to know everything, he explained what HE found useful, why he trained what he trained, gave credit to things other people showed or told him. For his skill level he could have been massively big headed, made a ton of money selling the exclusive Harden method to internal strength but nope, just wanted to train & help. All these are my observations of spending one weekend training with Dan. Oh and he was really funny, taking the piss & being on the receiving end (which is a good sign in my book).

I'm not a Dan follower or cheerleader however this post may seem, I simply read his posts here on Aikiweb over the years & they hit a note with me, that was my only experience of him prior to the seminar. I'm a big believer of being able to tell a martial artists ability by contact. From my perspective, he was very very rooted but not stuck to the ground. Was able to go through or round my guard, hit like a train & always changing (so never in danger & always a step ahead). For me, definitely skills that I want to train & improve. He then breaks it down & gives you the tools to go away & drill it for yourself (its as if he has failed if you dont get it, hands on correction, feeling him do the exercise, intellectual discussion or visually exaggerated movement for your benefit). Geez he can't give it away any easier all you have to do is train it relentlessly (which he tells you ). 

I don't believe for a second that money is his motivator if it was hes currently losing a fortune. He's probably gonna be around for a year or 2, helping out those who are the same page as him and then disappear. His friends/training partners will miss him & those chatting shit on the web will continue with their bullshit. I just thought that somebody who met him over a weekend should give his account. I will say that it seems to match up with what most people say. 

It's a little disappointing that my first meaningful post here is to stick up for the integrity of a guy I met once a few weeks ago. Oh well.

 To Dan & Paul, hi & hope your both well.

aikilouis
06-16-2011, 04:07 PM
Still better than spending more than a thousand posts bitching and moaning, like some others do.

DH
06-16-2011, 04:07 PM
Dude!!
Look at you on aikiweb! How'd that happen?
Hey, thanks...but you revealed my exit strategy. So much for my supposed big plans huh?
I don't think many of the teachers have caught on to the fact that THEY are the long term plan....not me.
gees....I must need better marketing help....no money...extended freebies before and after.....and i'm not even a part of my long term plan.
oops!
Dan

Hi
Just wanted to echo Gregs comments about Dan & the people who train with him or attend his seminars (those I've met at least). I met him for the first time recently in London a few weeks back. I found him to be very generous not only with his information & time, money wasnt his motivator, he just wanted to train & help, thats it. He wasn't trying to convert me to anything, he wasnt bothered if you took the information & wanted to incorporate it into your chosen martial art, no trying to sell anything, the result of the training sold itself. He didnt claim to know everything, he explained what HE found useful, why he trained what he trained, gave credit to things other people showed or told him. For his skill level he could have been massively big headed, made a ton of money selling the exclusive Harden method to internal strength but nope, just wanted to train & help. All these are my observations of spending one weekend training with Dan. Oh and he was really funny, taking the piss & being on the receiving end (which is a good sign in my book).

I'm not a Dan follower or cheerleader however this post may seem, I simply read his posts here on Aikiweb over the years & they hit a note with me, that was my only experience of him prior to the seminar. I'm a big believer of being able to tell a martial artists ability by contact. From my perspective, he was very very rooted but not stuck to the ground. Was able to go through or round my guard, hit like a train & always changing (so never in danger & always a step ahead). For me, definitely skills that I want to train & improve. He then breaks it down & gives you the tools to go away & drill it for yourself (its as if he has failed if you dont get it, hands on correction, feeling him do the exercise, intellectual discussion or visually exaggerated movement for your benefit). Geez he can't give it away any easier all you have to do is train it relentlessly (which he tells you ). 

I don't believe for a second that money is his motivator if it was hes currently losing a fortune. He's probably gonna be around for a year or 2, helping out those who are the same page as him and then disappear. His friends/training partners will miss him & those chatting shit on the web will continue with their bullshit. I just thought that somebody who met him over a weekend should give his account. I will say that it seems to match up with what most people say. 

It's a little disappointing that my first meaningful post here is to stick up for the integrity of a guy I met once a few weeks ago. Oh well.

 To Dan & Paul, hi & hope your both well.

DH
06-16-2011, 04:14 PM
Basics
So for those training it how relevant do you believe ip/ aiki is in comparison to kata training for a good balance of foundation.
Seems Ueshiba and Tohei agreed with their DR counterparts as well as the Chinese.
Do your mates agree?
cheers
Dan

AlexF
06-16-2011, 04:37 PM
Hey Dan, nothing has been revealed yet, it's part of THE carefully constructed strategy to elevate the Harden method to be more popular than Tai Chi in China. Part A, create a cult inner circle following, check, Part B propaganda, harden tshirts, logos, magazine front covers etc (in progress) Part C compulsory introduction to school curriculum worldwide, bwahaha, some people might even believe it. All I can say is your very patient and many appreciate your observations here on aikiweb & RSF even with the flak you put up with, so pls keep it up.
Here's a question for you with regards to in/up & down/out. When receiving/grounding an incoming force is it preferable to receive on the inside lines of the legs & send back on the outside lines or receive on the outside & use the inside for bouncing back? Feels like both can be done, any thoughts appreciated.
Thanks, Alex

AlexF
06-16-2011, 05:00 PM
Basics
So for those training it how relevant do you believe ip/ aiki is in comparison to kata training for a good balance of foundation.
Seems Ueshiba and Tohei agreed with their DR counterparts as well as the Chinese.
Do your mates agree?
cheers
Dan

In my opinion, Kata/form training without incorporating movement powered by ip/aiki is an empty shell. So do you try to develop ip by carefully studying & repeating the form again & again until you get it (a la Chen Fake the Tai Chi master) or do you repeat a simple looking yet profound exercise which will be present in you (eventually) every time you move or will it (standing practise, silk reeling, rowing exercise etc). Personally I need to internalize the simple first before attempting to have it fully present during kata/form. I still practise form but for me the gold is to be found in the other training & later expressed in the form or freestyle. Neither way is wrong, just my preference for learning.

akiy
06-16-2011, 08:24 PM
Hi folks,

As this discussion is in the "Training" (of aikido) forum, can you please make sure to explicitly include the topic of aikido within your posts?

Thank you,

-- Jun

hughrbeyer
06-16-2011, 08:33 PM
So for those training it how relevant do you believe ip/ aiki is in comparison to kata training for a good balance of foundation.

Seems Ueshiba and Tohei agreed with their DR counterparts as well as the Chinese.
Do your mates agree?

I have to admit, I love movement training. Meeting the attack at the right point, leading uke into a movement they can't resist because it's where they thought they wanted to go, feeling that you're on the plain of nakaima with no uke, no tori, just the eternal present, every part in exactly the place it has to be not because you planned it but because the whole movement is perfect and complete and so of course the parts have to be in the right place... it's better than sex. No it's not. But it's right up there.

Now add aiki to that? Take away the timing tricks, take away the momentum and leading tricks, take away all the muscling of the movement that was still there when you thought it wasn't, connect the body so that not only is the heel connected to the hand but every point along the connection is vibrant and alive... that's worth working for.

So my answer: What's the sound of one hand clapping? What coin has only one side?