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Reuben
05-09-2011, 11:44 AM
Now I have been experimenting with udekimenage against tough resisting opponents (think MMA, BJJ people) and been meeting limited success.

A bit of history, been practicing Aikido for some 18 years maybe and over the past 2 years have taken up MMA. This has been a very educational journey for me in discovering the intricacies of Aikido techniques since I would sometimes horse around with the peeps to try Aikido techniques against them and find that I improved my technique since I understood the mechanics needed to get them working on a resisting opponent. I of course ask them to throw me a more dedicated attack unlike normal MMA strikes so I have some momentum to work with to offbalance them.

The problem with testing these techniques with Aikidoka (even experienced ones) is that their bodies and minds are already conditioned for Aikido movements and even when I tell them to resist, the technique still works on them hence I decided to try this on someone who knows nothing about Aikido and see how it goes.

My findings:
Udekimenage when done like this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5wJAB9qTl8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7uLXOIj0c4&NR=1

doesn't work, even when the person is off balanced. At most it becomes a small projection just projecting him forward but he doesn't fall as he can easily just post his leg forward to stop him from falling.

There is of course the nasty way in which you apply a crank towards the elbow using your shoulder and upper arm but this even with pain doesn't lead to a throw unless the intention is to break his arm by smashing it on the extended arm with my shoulder...which I don't think is very Aiki.

Another thing I tried was locking the arm diagonally across my body and pushing forward and into with my shoulder and hip but this too although generated pain just resulted in a projection as well with no fall. Once again he could just post his leg forward and although it hurt, it was not a throw.

Now I saw a couple of these videos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inuH8-XZlsQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrCLnvkt7TI

and realized that in both these videos there was a slight leg sweep/trip or at least the legs were positioned in a way that prevented the leg from posting. I haven't tried this yet (going to do so asap).

However I was wondering how everyone has been taught udekimenage....with the leg position in a way to trip or without? Are you taught that is an elbow breaking technique?

NagaBaba
05-09-2011, 12:31 PM
General pointer as in all aikido techniques, that your hips must take place of attacker hips when you throw him.

It means for me that in ALL techniques (throws or others) the vector of your power goes through his hips. In the case of udekimange, all 3 joins of his arm have to be locked simultaneously and connected to his center. Then you use this as a leverage to put him on the top of his toes, otherwise he will simply bend his knees and no throw is possible.

Now HOW to achieve such situation with resistance (or countering) from attacker, that another story LOL You need to learn a leading, but it is really difficult. No experienced attacker will give extended arm…

Demetrio Cereijo
05-09-2011, 12:50 PM
However I was wondering how everyone has been taught udekimenage....with the leg position in a way to trip or without?
With the leg being more an obstruction (because the stepping towards uke's front to generate kuzusi) than a trip.

Are you taught that is an elbow breaking technique?
Mainly as nage waza, but one that can be easily converted in ara waza.

On resisting opponents: start with a greco/russian 2 on 1 and work from there.

Michael Hackett
05-09-2011, 03:58 PM
I've seen (and felt) a variation from Yoseikan Budo that they call tenben nage. Nage grips Ukes wrist with both hands and locks his arm diagonally across the body. Nage then twists outward to about 45 degrees and throws by moving his hips forward. Uke must be on his toes though.

phitruong
05-09-2011, 04:44 PM
downward hand, aim for balls. :D

Keith Larman
05-09-2011, 04:59 PM
downward hand, aim for balls. :D

I tried that, but it just didn't seem to work on her...

Alberto_Italiano
05-09-2011, 05:14 PM
It depends on the fact it will never work.

It's a technique that should flow out of your hands in a situation where it seems the spontaneous and suitable thing to do. Unfortunately, very few situations will be such if you end up under real heavy enemy fire.
Without an uke who intentionally falls down, you will never project anyone who is on some strong or mild footing with that stuff.

But we have hope: your last sentence reveals that you got it: the intention of these techniques, just like of ikkyo, probably was that of breaking an arm - place them in a warlike situation like deadly duel, and you start suspecting immediately that they were designed to do much more than what is done on dojos.

So my brutal suggestion is not to project uke, but to ground him. This is the least Aiki thing one can envision and you ought to issue a Wanted board for what I am saying and a ban from all the good and respectable dojos in the world lol - ground him, drop yourself on his shoulder.
This is goin to get your Sensei showing you the door, but if you happen to apply that in a real fight against an attacker with a knife in his hands, you won't have time to post here but, rather, you will be scrambling for dear life.

Drop yoruself on his shoulder, and forget projecting him: ground him face down headlong - his teeth on the floor.

In the dojo, instead, keep pretending it works like in the videos :-D

Alberto_Italiano
05-09-2011, 06:53 PM
Oh I was watching once again your videos. A related one was this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6tbdRCq5Zqk

Under this respect, my half-humorous and half-serious answer becomes more serious - for: tell me, in this latest video, what's the difference between that "iriminage" and hitting uke in the face with a punch: wouldn't he likely fall in both cases?

Some techniques seem stuff to put in store for when you become a demigod at Aikido - when the techniques flow so spontaneously from your hands that whatever incoming dynamic immediately elicits its appropriate response.
That is: you need to be able to extract the Sword in the Stone first... then yes, you can secure any fight. Undoubtedly.

However there are so few at that stage (certainly not me!) and it would need so much training with ukes of every flavour, that my suggestion to ground him seems less unwarranted, and less humourous - after all, in that video we see an 8th dan throwing a _dissimulated_ punch at one's face!
Let's call a rose with another name!

Actually, with ude kime nage one would think that the more the arm is rigid, the better. Maybe this: try irimi badly into his armpit and give a strong hip thrust, and get ready to drop on him when you see it did not work?

I really don't know. Some techiniques are a big mistery to me and when you say hey they don't work if uke is very aggressive and/or strong and/or rigid I'm all with you.

PS http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7uLXOIj0c4&NR=1 IMHU is comical. They probably meant as a demonstration of how we can make people laugh :-D

Reuben
05-09-2011, 09:33 PM
Alberto: Yeap I'm not saying they are sterling examples of Aikido but I found it difficult to find any high levels demonstrating this technique but I may have struck gold:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgBTi1lrg10

Watch this one where Gozo Shioda does it and I don't see any use of the leg trip/position. That being said it does look like the uke is flinging himself (though with someone as bad-ass as Shioda one can hardly blame the uke).

But what is more telling is that udekimenage is known as 'hijiate' in Yoshinkan which if I understand correctly is translated as 'strike to elbow?' If so we can safely conclude that this technique as originally designed was to break/strike the extended elbow rather than throw itself and that the dojo version of this technique is just for safety rather than it being an effective technique in its dojo form.

These techniques really should come with an instruction manual :/

Appreciate anyone in the Yoshinkan school to comment on this also :D

Abasan
05-09-2011, 10:22 PM
I did ask kancho to show me how to do the technique correctly last year. I told him my sensei experienced the same technique from kancho some decades back and I wanted to experience the same.

My sensei said when Kancho did it to him, he flipped over on the same spot without feeling any pain. He did this several times. And in no way was it a joint lock throw he emphasised.

When kancho did it to me though, he basically utilised enshin from the forearm all the way until my shoulder and the fulcrum is that shoulder not the elbow lock, thus when being thrown imagine yonkyo...

In the end I didn't fall in the same spot and I did feel all of the technique. He must have let me off since I probably don't have the ukemi skills of sensei.

Anyway, the fact that you want to post with your lead foot is irrelevant when your face is going to be planted on the mat. That being said, if the fulcrum is still the elbow, yes your are likely to be able to stop it. I wouldn't but you could.

Alberto: Yeap I'm not saying they are sterling examples of Aikido but I found it difficult to find any high levels demonstrating this technique but I may have struck gold:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgBTi1lrg10

Watch this one where Gozo Shioda does it and I don't see any use of the leg trip/position. That being said it does look like the uke is flinging himself (though with someone as bad-ass as Shioda one can hardly blame the uke).

But what is more telling is that udekimenage is known as 'hijiate' in Yoshinkan which if I understand correctly is translated as 'strike to elbow?' If so we can safely conclude that this technique as originally designed was to break/strike the extended elbow rather than throw itself and that the dojo version of this technique is just for safety rather than it being an effective technique in its dojo form.

These techniques really should come with an instruction manual :/

Appreciate anyone in the Yoshinkan school to comment on this also :D

Alberto_Italiano
05-09-2011, 10:25 PM
as 'strike to elbow?' If so we can safely conclude that this technique as originally designed was to break/strike the extended elbow rather than throw itself and that the dojo version of this technique is just for safety rather than it being an effective technique in its dojo form.


Forgive my lack of experience: do you imply also that when I said drop yourself on his arm and make his teeth hit the mat, I did not say, after all, that anathema that will get me banned from all the Aiki forums of the world? :D

Reuben
05-09-2011, 10:58 PM
I did ask kancho to show me how to do the technique correctly last year. I told him my sensei experienced the same technique from kancho some decades back and I wanted to experience the same.

My sensei said when Kancho did it to him, he flipped over on the same spot without feeling any pain. He did this several times. And in no way was it a joint lock throw he emphasised.

When kancho did it to me though, he basically utilised enshin from the forearm all the way until my shoulder and the fulcrum is that shoulder not the elbow lock, thus when being thrown imagine yonkyo...

In the end I didn't fall in the same spot and I did feel all of the technique. He must have let me off since I probably don't have the ukemi skills of sensei.

Anyway, the fact that you want to post with your lead foot is irrelevant when your face is going to be planted on the mat. That being said, if the fulcrum is still the elbow, yes your are likely to be able to stop it. I wouldn't but you could.

Did you feel pain? I understand using it as a fulcrum from the shoulder which is how I did it for many years but to drive the shoulder forward and down, I felt the forward force and was projected forward but I could still remain on my two feet. My whole upper body is already brought down to an almost horizontal line which shows that my balance has been broken but the posting prevented me from having my face planted on the mat and still remain on my two feet.

Is udekimenage is in effect a pain and break compliance technique? In the sense that if you resist, you're going to get your arm broken therefore you better roll. Thing is I think that even if I don't resist the technique and go with the throw, I can still get away on my two feet.

Where is your dojo in Malaysia? Maybe I should pop by and see how it is done (please don't break my arm).:D

Reuben
05-09-2011, 11:03 PM
Forgive my lack of experience: do you imply also that when I said drop yourself on his arm and make his teeth hit the mat, I did not say, after all, that anathema that will get me banned from all the Aiki forums of the world? :D

hahaha well this whole thing is a contradiction.

We are told that Aikido is meant not to harm the opponent. But we are also by told by most instructors that we are to do what is necessary in a self defense situation.

Now assuming if I'm in a self defense situation and somehow get into udekimenage position, my question is, can I throw the guy or do I have to drop him/break his arm to make it work. If so, I'm much better off using a different art. (unlikely for an attacker to comply with your attack).

Alberto_Italiano
05-10-2011, 12:10 AM
hahaha well this whole thing is a contradiction.

We are told that Aikido is meant not to harm the opponent. But we are also by told by most instructors that we are to do what is necessary in a self defense situation.

Now assuming if I'm in a self defense situation and somehow get into udekimenage position, my question is, can I throw the guy or do I have to drop him/break his arm to make it work. If so, I'm much better off using a different art. (unlikely for an attacker to comply with your attack).

You know Reuben - we all noticed this thing in Aikido. Of course, we try not to be too vocal about it, also because if we do, we immediately find plenty of guys who explain to us that:
1) it is not so
2) it is for demonstration purposes
3) aikido is too dangerosu - it's lethal, and if you're not extremely careful, who knos what could happen
4) aikido may maim you: if an ikkyo is done in the right way, your arm would end up being on the mat, tore apart
5) oh, it is for demonstration purposes
6) and, last but not least, did I mention it is for demonstration purposes? :D

What I am saying is: you're right, too many techniques, placed outside of the hypercontrolled setting of many dojos, would miserably fail, and the gap we may discover comparing those videos with what we might witness, instead, with an aikidoka taking real hyperhostile (and no longer hypercontrolled) enemy fire, spreads so vast a gulf that it is seemingly unbridgeable.

However, the idea behind Aikido is so fascinating, that I pursue it.
I pursue it also if dojos at times make me fill sick with their too fictional approach.
I will never be a good aikidoka - this because of my own incompetence and my own quirks, and also because I refuse of considering myself good or bad after the standards of how I can place a ude kime nage on an uke who will do his best to fall down if I sing gingle bell too loud.

But Aikido is beautiful.
And if you can place one of its techniques (I know it's a big if), game over: fight concluded.
How much punishment you took in the meanwhile is open to speculation, of course.

But Aikido is beautiful.
The challenges it poses when you decide you want to make it work against a real situation are fascinating.
And if by chance you manage to land a technique - bingo!

And, perhaps, dojos don't suffice.

develop your aikido too - in that case, drop on his arm and show him the floor. Or don't ever use that technique in a real situation (oh, and don't ever use iriminage too in a real situation)

I don't know.

Alberto_Italiano
05-10-2011, 12:34 AM
It's a contradiction, yes.
I don't know if Aikido will ever find a way out of this contradiction. I doubt it, because its prerequiste would be having Federations acknowledge the contradiction.
But why should they? Why?

Besides, after all, we can see videos where O'Sensei trains aikidokas exactly in the way most dojos do.

You are alone with this Sphinx, Reuben. You have to find yourself what of Aikido is usable and what not. Nobody's gonna tell you.
Go find a partner off the mat, and check with him - then back to the dojo - then back to check out of the dojo whether what they told you holds "true" against fire.

To date, I have found no better solution - and most of my techniques suck, in fact.
One wonders: do they know that a determined opponent grabbing your hand will NEVER let you place an ikkyo on him?
They make you spin ukes around with iriminage: one wonders, do they know a real attacker will NEVER let you bend his neck with a fairy tales touch?
They make you do ude kime nage against ukes whose consistency is that of leaves in the wind.

Go to the dojo. Then double check outside of it.
Find your Aikido - it won't look beautiful, probably - pretty aikido is for -ahem- demonstration purposes :)
If you are to be one day good at it, I doubt you will become such going to any Doe Dojo thrice a week. I really doubt it.

Aikido is an art of deception :D

Abasan
05-10-2011, 12:51 AM
Did you feel pain? I understand using it as a fulcrum from the shoulder which is how I did it for many years but to drive the shoulder forward and down, I felt the forward force and was projected forward but I could still remain on my two feet. My whole upper body is already brought down to an almost horizontal line which shows that my balance has been broken but the posting prevented me from having my face planted on the mat and still remain on my two feet.

Is udekimenage is in effect a pain and break compliance technique? In the sense that if you resist, you're going to get your arm broken therefore you better roll. Thing is I think that even if I don't resist the technique and go with the throw, I can still get away on my two feet.

Where is your dojo in Malaysia? Maybe I should pop by and see how it is done (please don't break my arm).:D

Hi Rueben, I don't feel pain when kancho did it to me. But this could be as much because I reacted with the ukemi appropriate to the technique. I didn't go and post my leg out just to see if I could stop his technique. Having analysed that I realise that I haven't truly answered the OP's question I suppose.

In fact to be honest, I've had on occasion some students posting their leg out when I didn't get the enshin right. To which I will then try to project more down through their shoulders which sometimes result in the face plant. So I don't think this is the correct way, not the way my sensei will have it in anycase but it's what I'm physically able to perform at this point in time. I hope to improve.

My dojo is in Bkt Jelutong, you're welcome to come and share experience. Drop me a pm.

Carsten Möllering
05-10-2011, 01:38 AM
... We are told that Aikido is meant not to harm the opponent. ...This is a sentence I first read on an internet forum and never heard from a teacher.

But we are also by told by most instructors that we are to do what is necessary in a self defense situation.
"Everything is allowed in aikido", is a sentence I heard of a teacher during my very first seminar.

To not hurt the opponent is not part of the picture of the aikido I know. And will not work with an opponent who isn't used to aikido.

But what is more interesting to me:
When I practice with people who don't do aikido the ude kime nage which doesn't seem to work is one of the most effective tools. (Without breaking the elbow ... ;) )

Reuben
05-10-2011, 02:22 AM
But what is more interesting to me:
When I practice with people who don't do aikido the ude kime nage which doesn't seem to work is one of the most effective tools. (Without breaking the elbow ... ;) )

Could you share how you do it? Ideally with video if possible (hard to imagine in words)! Much thanks! I would be very grateful for this.

It's a contradiction, yes.
I don't know if Aikido will ever find a way out of this contradiction. I doubt it, because its prerequiste would be having Federations acknowledge the contradiction.
But why should they? Why?

Besides, after all, we can see videos where O'Sensei trains aikidokas exactly in the way most dojos do.

You are alone with this Sphinx, Reuben. You have to find yourself what of Aikido is usable and what not. Nobody's gonna tell you.
Go find a partner off the mat, and check with him - then back to the dojo - then back to check out of the dojo whether what they told you holds "true" against fire.

To date, I have found no better solution - and most of my techniques suck, in fact.
One wonders: do they know that a determined opponent grabbing your arm will NEVER let you place an ikkyo on him?
They make you spin ukes around with iriminage: one wonders, do they know a real attacker will never let you bend his neck with a fairy tales touch?
They make you do ude kime nage against ukes whose consistency is that of leaves in the wind.

Go to the dojo. Then double check outside of it.
Find your Aikido - it won't look beautiful, probably - pretty aikido is for -ahem- demonstration purposes :)
If you are to be one day good at it, I doubt you will become such going to any Doe Dojo thrice a week. I really doubt it.

Aikido is an art of deception :D

Well being less than a week away from my 3rd dan exam after practicing tachi dori techniques and san nin holds..you can say that I too have become jaded with the way Aikido is being taught but I refuse to give up just yet.

I am very lucky to have students who don't mind seeing their Sensei get punched in the face when trying out new stuff and those from other disciplines too don't mind showing me their stuff and their opinions of what works and doesn't.

I am also blessed to practice in an MMA studio environment with nice people who aren't out to show how strong they are and are just there to have fun and learn so it's great to try out new stuff on them.

At the end of the day, until someone shows me otherwise, I will continue trying to find modifications of dojo techniques to achieve what I feel are 'Aiki' like solutions to problems as long as they meet the following
a) The ability to control without having to hurt.
b) Using the opponent's energy to off balance him.

Times have changed and so has the nature of attacks. Those who refer to Aikido as being developed from battlefield arts the vast majority I would think know little about fighting on the medieval battlefield (indeed who does nowadays?) and I would hazard a guess that battlefield war then is very much different than your average self defense situation.

The video below of was of me when I was in my first few months training in MMA and was exposed to MMA sparring. I thought it would be fun to just mess about with Aikido to see how it works against someone who does punch combos and is given license to resist if he can. This is an experiment and I realize my uke is much smaller than me and that he's throwing not so committal attacks (which I told him he was free to do so) nor is it a good example of how Aikido (or MMA) should be performed. It is sloppy no less!

I merely thought I record it as a snapshot of my Aikido development and I post it here to share since the discussion has evolved somewhat.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMg1OuKWcgI

Reuben
05-10-2011, 02:33 AM
Hi Rueben, I don't feel pain when kancho did it to me. But this could be as much because I reacted with the ukemi appropriate to the technique. I didn't go and post my leg out just to see if I could stop his technique. Having analysed that I realise that I haven't truly answered the OP's question I suppose.

In fact to be honest, I've had on occasion some students posting their leg out when I didn't get the enshin right. To which I will then try to project more down through their shoulders which sometimes result in the face plant. So I don't think this is the correct way, not the way my sensei will have it in anycase but it's what I'm physically able to perform at this point in time. I hope to improve.

My dojo is in Bkt Jelutong, you're welcome to come and share experience. Drop me a pm.

Thanks the next time I drop by I will look you guys up!

ewolput
05-10-2011, 02:37 AM
Mae otoshi is a similar technique in the Tomiki Aikido repertoire. Here is a link where you can see mae otoshi with a non cooperative opponent :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KD4LSqRGxG0
It is the 4th technique, but in the clip there are more variations.

There was a time when this technique was banned in shia because a lot of injuriesi, but now again is free to use it.

Eddy Wolput
www.shobukai.be

Michael Varin
05-10-2011, 03:22 AM
Reuben,

For starters, I refer to the technique that you call udekimenage as mae otoshi.

Second, I have a different outlook on the techniques that have become part of aikido and where their natural effectiveness lies.

If you were to perform mae otoshi while you are holding a weapon, uke may well have more incentive (the more powerful the weapon, the greater the incentive) to hold on to you until a throw is achievable. Additionally, if you are armed in this scenario, a "small projection" may very well be all you need to effectively end the fight.

And what if you have multiple opponents and your biggest concern is to free yourself for continued movement?

By the way, I really enjoyed the spirit of your video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMg1OuKWcgI

It reminds me of the early stages of my exploration into the effectiveness of aikido techniques. I think I can give you a big hint that will put you light-years ahead. It all revolves around context. You have to free yourself from the one-on-one, empty-hand context that we have all come to believe is where martial arts should prove themselves. Start experimenting with weapons and multiple opponent situations. See where aikido fits better and where mma struggles. You might be surprised.

Reuben
05-10-2011, 03:30 AM
It reminds me of the early stages of my exploration into the effectiveness of aikido techniques. I think I can give you a big hint that will put you light-years ahead. It all revolves around context. You have to free yourself from the one-on-one, empty-hand context that we have all come to believe is where martial arts should prove themselves. Start experimenting with weapons and multiple opponent situations. See where aikido fits better and where mma struggles. You might be surprised.

Thanks for the tip!

ewol & Michael: will look into mae otoshi later on today :D

Alberto_Italiano
05-10-2011, 03:43 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMg1OuKWcgI

Do you know what? this is perhaps the most interesting video with an aikidoka in, that I have seen in two years.
Do not dismiss it as mere fun. It is one of the more instructive instances to be found online. I don't mean it's terrific in itself - I mean we nearly never see on video guys who have the guts of showing themselves in a setting that won't make them look good.
Fantastic.
And you're a Dan!

Well, my personal judgement aside, just in order to contribute to the discussion and keeping in mind with humilty that I am a bad aikidoka, yet perhaps I have a few considerations to make and maybe not all of them are unconsequential or to be dismissed like stuff.

1] You are facing an opponent who throws punches.
Now, too many aikidokas seem to forget that, in a real situation, this is precisely what you have to face in most cases. Commendable choice!

Now, it is true that your uke is not really experienced - you would be surprised how a vaguely decent boxer (no Thai: pure boxing) with say 30 fights on his shoulders (with "decent boxer" I mean only this: you won't need Ray Sugar leonard) can hit you and keep you at bay. However, he has the merit of pursuing you (our ukes throw mild stuff and - doh - wait!)

2] This training, that you rightly dub "fun" (or so: "messing around") ought instead to be exactly a daily part of our training.
See how difficult it was to place one technique - and the simplest of all, Ikkyo: number one. I mean, you know too the ikkyos we see on videos - everything seems simple.
It is not.

3] Let's examine briefly the two techniques you manage to land. One is the Ikkyo.
Of course. That's exactly and nearly the only thing we can do to someone throwing punches, and what I normally attempt too - we strive to get lateral, and once lateral you have no time to think of fancy things with a fast paced opponent - you do what you can, and what you can has a name: Ikkyo.
The "yet" stays in this: yet, facing such attacks, our aikido is reduced to nearly nothing - it necessarily becomes very poor.
One wonders: why we learn scores of techniques, when even under mild & friendly fire we can't apply more than 3 or 4 at best?

4] You produce a neck lock - and that's correct, though it's not aikido any longer. But I think that, then and there, you realized what I realized: a real fight immensely depletes our Aikido.

5] Of course, I think you know (and I hope that you will take no offense if I state the obvious - with the premise that in my case it is even worse!): that aikido is immensely ugly.

I mean: what is left there of all those super sophisticated videos we see with super sleek techniques all super easily applied and all invariably succeeding and ukes falling on the floor immediately?
We move from immaculate aikido to plain ugly (I mean to the eye) without any intermediate step!
In an instant, we have jumped beyond the whole gap!

6] Envision a situation where the boxer gets at you: imagine the problems for fun you had there, what they could turn into once actual blows hit you: they do pose a challenge. From ugly to uglier.

Morale: one cannot "udekimenage" on these guys - one has to go for the jugular :crazy:

Reuben
05-10-2011, 03:57 AM
Do you know what? this is perhaps the most interesting video with an aikidoka in, that I have seen in two years.
Do not dismiss it as mere fun. It is one of the more instructive instances to be found online. I don't mean it's terrific in itself - I mean we nearly never see on video guys who have the guts of showing themselves in a setting that won't make them look good.
Fantastic.
And you're a Dan!

Well, my personal judgement aside, just in order to contribute to the discussion and keeping in mind with humilty that I am a bad aikidoka, yet perhaps I have a few considerations to make and maybe not all of them are unconsequential or to be dismissed like stuff.

1] You are facing an opponent who throws punches.
Now, too many aikidokas seem to forget that, in a real situation, this is precisely what you have to face in most cases. Commendable choice!

Now, it is true that your uke is not really experienced - you would be surprised how a vaguely decent boxer (no Thai: pure boxing) with say 30 fights on his shoulders (with "decent boxer" I mean only this: you won't need Ray Sugar leonard) can hit you and keep you at bay. However, he has the merit of pursuing you (our ukes throw mild stuff and - doh - wait!)

2] This training, that you rightly dub "fun" (or so: "messing around") ought instead to be exactly a daily part of our training.
See how difficult it was to place one technique - and the simplest of all, Ikkyo: number one. I mean, you know too the ikkyos we see on videos - everything seems simple.
It is not.

3] Let's examine briefly the two techniques you manage to land. One is the Ikkyo.
Of course. That's exactly and nearly the only thing we can do to someone throwing punches, and what I normally attempt too - we strive to get lateral, and once lateral you have no time to think of fancy things with a fast paced opponent - you do what you can, and what you can has a name: Ikkyo.
The "yet" stays in this: yet, facing such attacks, our aikido is reduced to nearly nothing - it necessarily becomes very poor.
One wonders: why we learn scores of techniques, when even under mild & friendly fire we can't apply more than 3 or 4 at best?

4] You produce a neck lock - and that's correct, though it's not aikido any longer. But I think that, then and there, you realized what I realized: a real fight immensely depletes our Aikido.

5] Of course, I think you know (and I hope that you will take no offense if I state the obvious - with the premise that in my case it is even worse!): that aikido is immensely ugly.

I mean: what is left there of all those super sophisticated videos we see with super sleek techniques all super easily applied and all invariably succeeding and ukes falling on the floor immediately?
We move from immaculate aikido to plain ugly (I mean to the eye) without any intermediate step!
In an instant, we have jumped beyond the whole gap!

6] Envision a situation where the boxer gets at you: imagine the problems for fun you had there, what they could turn into once actual blows hit you: they do pose a challenge. From ugly to uglier.

Morale: one cannot "udekimenage" on these guys - one has to go for the jugular :crazy:

I'm glad you found my video entertaining lol though I don't think you should look too deeply into me having a dan grade as sometimes I wonder with my views on Aikido whether I am actually a true Aikidoka :( Exams and true understanding of techniques are quite separate things.

I've actually learnt a few things since then so I think it's a good time to post a new video and will do so when I can.

The guy striking has also gotten wise to my tricks and is less afraid to hold back (in a separate instance I got caught up in trying to secure the hand and he just proceeded to repeatedly punch me albeit lightly in the face which was a very important lesson). I probably should also try messing more with my MMA friends with Aikido maybe with some limited rules like you can only punch or grab/takedown me but no feints and also try Michael's suggestion of different sort of scenarios.

I have no doubt that my Aikido is ugly. :p That being said I have successfully pulled off a textbook sudden duck and trip thing on an unexpecting sparring partner.

Alberto_Italiano
05-10-2011, 04:05 AM
I
(in a separate instance I got caught up in trying to secure the hand and he just proceeded to repeatedly punch me albeit lightly in the face which was a very important lesson).


Of course he did!
It's only our ukes who have one arm only :o

That's was one of the thing I attempted to emphasize: imagine those repeated punches in the face being thrown with intention, and no gloves.
Let's talk of atemi! You lose your focus, and there he goes: you find out he is now hitting you with both hands again!

Since that is the most typical situation, the most typical attack - you don't nikkyo that. You won't yonkyo it. You don't shiho nage it. You don't iriminage that stuff.

You ikkyo it, at most - and in less than a minute you soon find out you have to choke him (falling down with him)!

Once again, I can't thank you enough for this video - at times it seemed to me I was speaking of UFOs that I was the only one to have sighted :freaky:

Aikibu
05-10-2011, 04:13 AM
How can you execute udekimenage with "resistance" without Atemi?

I understand resistance to mean your Uke has their center. If that's the case... No technique will work very well.

William Hazen

Alberto_Italiano
05-10-2011, 04:21 AM
Excuse me for being cheeky, but given the video Reuben posted...
Yeah let's trade atemis for punches, and let's see who loses focus first.

This in case Reuben wants also to put udekimenage in the context of his video - if not so, of course, one may also atemi.

Reuben
05-10-2011, 04:22 AM
@Alberto:

I think only a subset of Aikido techniques work against fast strikes. The simpler the technique, the easier it is to pull off and I think even in randoori, you seldom see the long executed techniques since it takes too long to pull off.

Perhaps just perhaps the other techniques serve to develop an understanding of Aikido principles and repertoire to apply in a wide variety of situations since punches as common as they are, are a subset of the attacks that an opponent can attack with.

Techniques that I find myself using often in such circumstances:

This also can easily lead to those elbow locks and controls which are pretty effective Hiji-jime if I'm not mistaken. Of course if I'm fancy, can always turn it into nikyo etc etc.

Irimi-nage i have to my surprise found to be quite effective in many situations albeit in slightly modified forms.

Simple kokyu throws where I just over extend the person are also common especially from hook strikes. Or a sudden direct entering body movement to close the distance as he tries to close the distance as well to move into a kokyu throw.

Techniques in which are difficult to perform in my experience against fast punching combos:

Kote-gaeshi unless you have really overextended him which is hard against a fast striking opponent. People with strong wrists will not go if they are still more or less balanced. I find it hard to prove these to ppl as my own wrists are very thin and susceptible to kote-gaeshi even from a stationary position.

Shihonage: Although I have to say I feel that my shihonage speed is above average, it is difficult to get into that position from a strike. Better for holds and not against a fully

Kaiten-nage: I only find that i get myself in this situation after some clinch work not directly. Shomen unarmed strikes in real attacks are rare.

and of course udekimenage...

Reuben
05-10-2011, 04:23 AM
How can you execute udekimenage with "resistance" without Atemi?

I understand resistance to mean your Uke has their center. If that's the case... No technique will work very well.

William Hazen

Balance has already been broken through leading. Uke's balance is already brought off his center towards me and it is possible for me to just drag further off into that direction and perhaps bring him to the ground albeit in an ugly fashion.

Resistance is only that he doesn't roll. He just tries to stay on his two feet after the throw without rolling.

As for losing focus under fire this is something that can be trained through repeated stress innoculation (push to the point where you're just about to crumble and then slowly improve on this) which will greatly reduce the flinching (though I'm not sure in an Aikido dojo). In our imperfect state, we have to realize and accept that we may get hit and learn to quickly recenter our minds to the matter at hand.

Alberto_Italiano
05-10-2011, 04:28 AM
Reuben - since you're open to this type of experiments, and I find it immensely commendable: make him wear 12 ounces boxing gloves. 12, not 10 ounces. They're quite safe. (and theorically you can nikkyo also a hand in gloves - for what matters is the wrist)
You wear a boxing face protection and mouth (teeth) protection.

Be sure you have plenty of space around and no objects you might fall upon and hurt yourself.

Then, unless you are aware of medical conditions impeding that, allow him to land his blows as he would to a real foe, with the provision he avoids your nose possibly.

Plan 2 rounds - 6 minutes.

Try to apply only and exclusively aikido - not even chokes.

Then let me know! Thank you!

Maarten De Queecker
05-10-2011, 04:29 AM
It depends on the fact it will never work.

It's a technique that should flow out of your hands in a situation where it seems the spontaneous and suitable thing to do.

This is correct and also the base of aikido. You don't do a technique, you flow into one.

"Oh yeah, now I can do this, and this situation lends itself perfectly for that..."

You act to what's given to you. Never try to force a technique, it won't work. Bend and adapt.

Reuben
05-10-2011, 04:33 AM
Reuben - since you're open to this type of experiments, and I find it immensely commendable: make him wear 12 ounces boxing gloves. 12, not 10 ounces. They're quite safe. (and theorically you can nikkyo also a hand in gloves - for what matters is the wrist)
You wear a boxing face protection and mouth (teeth) protection.

Be sure you have plenty of space around and no objects you might fall upon and hurt yourself.

Then, unless you are aware of medical conditions impeding that, allow him to land his blows as he would to a real foe, with the provision he avoids your nose possibly.

Plan 2 rounds - 6 minutes.

Try to apply only and exclusively aikido - not even chokes.

Then let me know! Thank you!

I'll try this though I think 6 minutes is really pushing it given how intense it all is :P I also actually think the boxing gloves is a handicap for me since it is hard to capture the boxing gloves if i want to apply any sort of wrist throw/lock.

Also Fight science interestingly showed that wearing bigger ounce gloves doesn't really mean more protection. Seemed to deliver the same impact if perhaps on a marginally larger surface area.

Reuben
05-10-2011, 04:35 AM
This is correct and also the base of aikido. You don't do a technique, you flow into one.

"Oh yeah, now I can do this, and this situation lends itself perfectly for that..."

You act to what's given to you. Never try to force a technique, it won't work. Bend and adapt.

I don't doubt the truth of this.

What I felt was even when I was in an ideal situation to do this throw, as long as he posted his leg, it really didn't do much although there was
a) an uke that is offbalance
b) a projection that used his momentum and did project him a few feet away

the key thing is that he was not obliged to roll and he could quickly come back at me. There was no throw.

Even where the uke was compliant and let himself be taken off balance with the only instruction was NOT to roll, he managed to still stay on his two feet.

Alberto_Italiano
05-10-2011, 04:38 AM
I'll try this though I think 6 minutes is really pushing it given how intense it all is :P I also actually think the boxing gloves is a handicap for me since it is hard to capture the boxing gloves if i want to apply any sort of wrist throw/lock.

Also Fight science interestingly showed that wearing bigger ounce gloves doesn't really mean more protection. Seemed to deliver the same impact if perhaps on a marginally larger surface area.

We need to think of safety - he has to wear the gloves. You won't place a sankyo with them on, but your theorical repertoire remains nonetheless mostly intact.

I am referring to the 12 ounces because normally you find either 10 or 12 - the more protection I can grant you as I suggest such an idea, the better - even if marginal.

6 Minutes are normally broken in 2 rounds with a 1 minute pause between them.

Keep in mind that normally amateur boxers fight on the 3 rounds distance (pro on the 12).
2 rounds seem fine - let's do aikido under fatigue and actual blows that carry no compliments.

It's gonna be a fantastic experience - sobering, but also beautiful in its own way.

Thank you again for your video - I really loved it, and exactly because techniques were messy.

ps consider you have space to dance around - some real situations may not afford that - unless you may get an actual ring which seems a good compromise between little space and a whole room.
I am referring to these things because they are consolidated sportive standards when it comes to actually hit.

Reuben
05-10-2011, 04:43 AM
Ah i thought u meant 2 rounds of 6 minutes each :P

Yeah two 3 minutes round is standard lol.

Alberto_Italiano
05-10-2011, 04:51 AM
@ Reuben
ps ask your medical doctor too first, absolutely. Maybe he is aware of some condition that you're not, and which should prevent it.

Be extra safe, Reuben, if you decide to do it. Consult your doctor too. If he says no, means no.

Reuben
05-10-2011, 05:00 AM
On a separate but related tangent:

Stefan Stenudd has posted an excellent chart on the varying difficulties he feels with techniques on a variety of attacks:

http://www.stenudd.com/aikido/aikidobasics-tachiwaza-mae.htm

Alberto_Italiano
05-10-2011, 05:13 AM
No such a thing without your medical doctor clearing. It's not an option.
I understand that people spar in gyms everyday, but they do have a medical clearing for that specificity. I had it, they have it.

You too.
If you do it, either you do it right or you won't do it.

Without it, you can keep doing as you do now only.

Reuben
05-10-2011, 05:16 AM
No worries I will get that approval although I spar in a MMA gym three times a week for about 2 years so most likely if I had any problems I would be dead by now :/ That said no harm being prudent.

The Stefan Stenudd post was unrelated to ur medical thing.

Alberto_Italiano
05-10-2011, 05:20 AM
No such a thing without your medical doctor clearing. It's not an option.
I understand that people spar in gyms everyday, but they do have a medical clearing for that specificity. I had it, they have it.

You too.
If you do it, either you do it right or you won't do it.

Without it, you can keep doing as you do now only.

I know it wasn't related.
Do check with your doc first.

We are guys who either do things right or we don't. You're one of this pack, so you will do it either right, or nothing.

Your doc express clearing - mandatory.
In case you had it, you may explain to him you had one clearing already (if you had it for MMA) - he will decide if it applies, or provide or deny a new one.

ciao

Demetrio Cereijo
05-10-2011, 06:21 AM
Techniques in which are difficult to perform in my experience against fast punching combos:

Kote-gaeshi unless you have really overextended him which is hard against a fast striking opponent. People with strong wrists will not go if they are still more or less balanced. I find it hard to prove these to ppl as my own wrists are very thin and susceptible to kote-gaeshi even from a stationary position.

Shihonage: Although I have to say I feel that my shihonage speed is above average, it is difficult to get into that position from a strike. Better for holds and not against a fully

Kaiten-nage: I only find that i get myself in this situation after some clinch work not directly. Shomen unarmed strikes in real attacks are rare.

and of course udekimenage...

I think you are trying to put a square peg in a round hole. These techniques are not designed for dealing with boxing style combos.

Reuben
05-10-2011, 06:49 AM
yup im not saying those techniques don't work. they just don't work in these particular set of circumstances. don't get me wrong. :)

sakumeikan
05-10-2011, 07:06 AM
You know Reuben - we all noticed this thing in Aikido. Of course, we try not to be too vocal about it, also because if we do, we immediately find plenty of guys who explain to us that:
1) it is not so
2) it is for demonstration purposes
3) aikido is too dangerosu - it's lethal, and if you're not extremely careful, who knos what could happen
4) aikido may maim you: if an ikkyo is done in the right way, your arm would end up being on the mat, tore apart
5) oh, it is for demonstration purposes
6) and, last but not least, did I mention it is for demonstration purposes? :D

What I am saying is: you're right, too many techniques, placed outside of the hypercontrolled setting of many dojos, would miserably fail, and the gap we may discover comparing those videos with what we might witness, instead, with an aikidoka taking real hyperhostile (and no longer hypercontrolled) enemy fire, spreads so vast a gulf that it is seemingly unbridgeable.

However, the idea behind Aikido is so fascinating, that I pursue it.
I pursue it also if dojos at times make me fill sick with their too fictional approach.
I will never be a good aikidoka - this because of my own incompetence and my own quirks, and also because I refuse of considering myself good or bad after the standards of how I can place a ude kime nage on an uke who will do his best to fall down if I sing gingle bell too loud.

But Aikido is beautiful.
And if you can place one of its techniques (I know it's a big if), game over: fight concluded.
How much punishment you took in the meanwhile is open to speculation, of course.

But Aikido is beautiful.
The challenges it poses when you decide you want to make it work against a real situation are fascinating.
And if by chance you manage to land a technique - bingo!

And, perhaps, dojos don't suffice.

develop your aikido too - in that case, drop on his arm and show him the floor. Or don't ever use that technique in a real situation (oh, and don't ever use iriminage too in a real situation)

I don't know.
Alberto,
The reasons why some Aikido doesnt work is that in many cases the aikido being practised by some people is akin to Fred and Ginger
sashaying to the strains of Cheek To Cheek.As far as Udekime nage is concerned if you focus on Ukes elbow joint and attack it in a positive manner Uke will soon be moveable.Cheers, Joe.

Demetrio Cereijo
05-10-2011, 07:19 AM
As far as Udekime nage is concerned if you focus on Ukes elbow joint and attack it in a positive manner Uke will soon be moveable.Cheers, Joe.
I agree but I think Reuben's problem is in the setting of the technique. Ude kime nage in a clinch/grappling situation is not especially difficult, against boxing strikes is another story.

sakumeikan
05-10-2011, 10:22 AM
I agree but I think Reuben's problem is in the setting of the technique. Ude kime nage in a clinch/grappling situation is not especially difficult, against boxing strikes is another story.

Dear Demetrio,
How so?If the boxer punches for example a right hander to the face /body, MOVE TO DEAD SIDE{ [by irimi /tenkan ]-EVASION.Control wrist /forearm of attacker FIRMLY and ATTACK the ONCOMING ELBOW JOINT.[- Control ]IF A BODY SHOT [Chudan ]keep close to the guy, on the deadside. If Jodan , vary the move and take the guy over [in this case ] your left shoulder ,.Make strong atemi as you enter this disturbs the boxers rhythm[ if possible use a premptive strike .You cannot afford to let a boxer take the initiative and set you up.Too dangerous.Timing / maai and good spirit is required here.Formula::Complete Evasion/Control/Atemi then execute Waza. Cheers, Joe.

Demetrio Cereijo
05-10-2011, 10:44 AM
Maybe.

The theory looks solid, we only need a competent boxer to test it. Meanwhile i'll stick with getting a 2 on 1 from the clinch and work from there.

Cheers.

Reuben
05-10-2011, 11:54 AM
Dear Demetrio,
How so?If the boxer punches for example a right hander to the face /body, MOVE TO DEAD SIDE{ [by irimi /tenkan ]-EVASION.Control wrist /forearm of attacker FIRMLY and ATTACK the ONCOMING ELBOW JOINT.[- Control ]IF A BODY SHOT [Chudan ]keep close to the guy, on the deadside. If Jodan , vary the move and take the guy over [in this case ] your left shoulder ,.Make strong atemi as you enter this disturbs the boxers rhythm[ if possible use a premptive strike .You cannot afford to let a boxer take the initiative and set you up.Too dangerous.Timing / maai and good spirit is required here.Formula::Complete Evasion/Control/Atemi then execute Waza. Cheers, Joe.

Thanks Joe, so you are attacking the elbow joint to execute the throw?

Also this you are cutting the hand as it extends for the punch or prior to it being pulled back to get the control?

Alberto_Italiano
05-10-2011, 12:14 PM
Dear Demetrio,
How so?If the boxer punches for example a right hander to the face /body, MOVE TO DEAD SIDE{ [by irimi /tenkan ]-EVASION.Control wrist /forearm of attacker FIRMLY and ATTACK the ONCOMING ELBOW JOINT.[- Control ]IF A BODY SHOT [Chudan ]keep close to the guy, on the deadside. If Jodan , vary the move and take the guy over [in this case ] your left shoulder ,.Make strong atemi as you enter this disturbs the boxers rhythm[ if possible use a premptive strike .You cannot afford to let a boxer take the initiative and set you up.Too dangerous.Timing / maai and good spirit is required here.Formula::Complete Evasion/Control/Atemi then execute Waza. Cheers, Joe.

Joe what you say is certainly worth of consideration. And I am glad we both realize that the situation is dangerous and should by no account be underestimated.

I don't know, however, if you have considered these elements:

1] Evasion: a boxer doesn't stay there as you move laterally: he moves laterally to face you squarely at your same pace, all the while throwing punches.
The "competent boxer" Demetrio mentioned can be incredibly fast, Joe!

Let me say, the first time I was exchanging gloves on a ring for training, I was shocked.
It all seems something else when you just look at it.
Once there facing the real fire, you realize how difficult it can be, and how fast a competent boxer can be on feet and punches both. After weeks I still was not even able to hit him!

2] Atemi: on a boxer it is bound to do nothing: are you aware a boxer is used to get on his face not an atemi but combination of punches, and yet he loses no focus?

To be sure, here I am not speaking of somebody doing a few Thai boxe now and then - I am speaking of a guy used to official fights as a regular routine - it is immaterial then if he is fighting as a pro on the 6 rounds, the 12 rounds, or an amateur used to the olympic 3 rounds.
An atemi will not break the rhythm of a boxer used to deliver (without losing breath and moving on his feet too) seqences of jab/jab/right/uppercut/right/hook/hook///jab/right/jab/jab - I am sure you are aware boxers work on combinations not on isolated lucky attempts. And they are used to give them and receive them. And let me add - a punch is not an atemi: it something meant to produce a cerebral concussion possibily, it's stuff delievered at you with full intention.

How can one hope that an atemi is going to make this type of opponent lose his focus?
That's my question.

It's true then that Aikido doesn't seem tailored to face a boxeur as you previously stated on this thread - yet if Aikido becomes basically unusable, like in Reuben video, against someone boxing with even just a bit of determination, what is Aikido for?
Showers of punches are a very typical attack.

We cannot hope all our attackers are going to hold our wrists and threat us interminably as we work out what we can place.

thank you!

Alberto_Italiano
05-10-2011, 12:41 PM
ps An amateur boxer with some 30 official fights under his belt, will brush aside an incoming atemi by making a mere and minimal gesture with his left hand wrist as he is in guard (I regret I have no video to let you see how a good boxer can brush aside incoming fast jabs by a less competent foe), and as your atemi is still sliding on his cheek, he will immediately enter your guard ("irimi" his way) with a direct right in less than half a second.

This is typical.
And that's how fast he will be.

Aikido against that poses a problem and it eventually boils down to scrambling for the ikkyo we teach to our 6th kyus.
Reuben was not incompetent in his video - rather, he was facing a mild & very firendly version of the problem we speak of.

We are imagining aikido against a competent attacker - how would it perform, if also against a friendly one it already needs to go for the neck and strangle as they both fall down?

Aikibu
05-10-2011, 01:58 PM
This is correct and also the base of aikido. You don't do a technique, you flow into one.

"Oh yeah, now I can do this, and this situation lends itself perfectly for that..."

You act to what's given to you. Never try to force a technique, it won't work. Bend and adapt.

Yup...If Uke exhibits resistance that's a sure sign you're trying to force something that's not there and though the video on the boxer had the right spirit... focusing on "blocking" instead of "entering" will not work against a seasoned martial artist and is not very effective against even amateurs. :) Brings to mind that other "R" word. Realism...As Mr De Queeker hints at... If you're thinking of a particular technique before you're executing it... it's no different than telegraphing a punch. Only Sincere hard practice will help. I suggest you look at old vids of Randori with some of the Masters like Shioda Shihan. He enters.....Nuff said. :)

William Hazen

Aikibu
05-10-2011, 02:28 PM
Yes Shoji Nishio and others considered these "elements" The Myth of "One Atemi" to the average Aikidoka is just that.... A Myth... Though as one advances in the Aiki Arts One Atemi ( or in the boxer's case the knock out punch) with clear and full intention is enough. The Myth then becomes Reality. I have felt it... and seen it done... and I am open minded and willing to practice hard enough to pursue it... and hopefully express it fully in my practice someday. For now... Maai... Irimi/Atemi and Technique will have to serve as a poor substitute and for those rare times in Randori where I don't think... I just enter... I seem to get by. :)

"Sincere Heart Through Austere Practice." Shoji Nishio Shihan

William Hazen

sakumeikan
05-10-2011, 06:21 PM
Thanks Joe, so you are attacking the elbow joint to execute the throw?

Also this you are cutting the hand as it extends for the punch or prior to it being pulled back to get the control?
Dear Rueben,
The primary objective i Aikido is to avoid being hit.The Irimi /Tenkan motion should if applied correctly put you close to the boxer , but on his dead side.Next thing try and establish control of leading hand , preferably when the motion of the arm is going forward.Difficult to achieve control of an arm/forearm if its retracting.As far as the elbow joint is concerned there must be a direct attack on the joint-if not the guy will barely move/stumble forward .As far as atemi is concerned I would not attack the face -attack in the region of soft tissue rib area.As I said this is not an easy type of opponent to deal with, care must be taken.Apply leverage on elbow /wrist area and drive/use your total body to effect kusushi /kake on Uke. Another point , blend with your opponent,
lead his mind if possible.[I suggest you research articles on subject -Path of an Echo]
cheers, joe

Reuben
05-11-2011, 01:23 AM
Dear Rueben,
The primary objective i Aikido is to avoid being hit.The Irimi /Tenkan motion should if applied correctly put you close to the boxer , but on his dead side.Next thing try and establish control of leading hand , preferably when the motion of the arm is going forward.Difficult to achieve control of an arm/forearm if its retracting.As far as the elbow joint is concerned there must be a direct attack on the joint-if not the guy will barely move/stumble forward .As far as atemi is concerned I would not attack the face -attack in the region of soft tissue rib area.As I said this is not an easy type of opponent to deal with, care must be taken.Apply leverage on elbow /wrist area and drive/use your total body to effect kusushi /kake on Uke. Another point , blend with your opponent,
lead his mind if possible.[I suggest you research articles on subject -Path of an Echo]
cheers, joe

Thanks Joe! Your replies are very insightful and I was hoping I could trouble you with a few more to clarify some things.

I know we can't apply udekimenage in certain situations and these situations often change.

I guess this question is divided into three parts (sorry couldn't be more concise).

Question 1: My question is in what ideal but plausible situation can we apply udekimenage relating to the entry and control?

I am assuming this is from a cross which is closest to how we practice tsuki since a jab is in most cases non-commital and fast. My aiki-solution to jabs is just to parry, or to maintain ma-ai

Would I need to move my body and establish control of the hand before he pulls back his punching arm? I feel that this is only possible if the punch itself is not balanced and slow in retracting or nage has already anticipated the cross.

One of the difficulties is that although there are I times where my timing is good and I can indeed cut the hand before it retracts but the moment he feels the grip, there's an instinct for uke to pull back the hand rather than to overextend it. This happens VERY fast often unconsciously by uke.

Is udekimenage then not the right technique to do and it's better to just do an irimi throw and something else that appears more natural? If so then udekimenage has some use albeit a rather limited role (where a punch is unbalanced and the uke is slow in pulling back).

Question 2: In facing an assailant who does not attack in one swift attack but rather squares off to you before teeing off, what is a valid Aiki strategy?

How I view Aikido against such an assailant is that I should evade or parry (or in Aiki terms, redirect) the the non committal or setup attacks (for e.g. jabs), perhaps throwing in some atemi to create attempts to move in or break the opponent's rhythm and once he does indeed overextend himself then it's time to spring into action (which was my approach in the video).

I understand Aikido is not to be seen as a sparring art, but not all self defense situations are one where the uke is enraged and charging you and throwing wild punches. There are some who may have a little experience in punching and know better than to open with a huge single attack unless it's a sucker punch (I think anyone who has brawled before will know this).

Question 3:The throw itself is actually therefore a direct attack on the elbow joint rather than a true 'throw'?

I often get the stumble forward reaction even when I apply with a deep entering and projection down and forward. Uke says he feels the projection and the power of the projection but feels he can still remain standing.

Is therefore the only way for this to be applied is a very direct attack on the joint and if he resists he then breaks his elbow? (assuming this is not training). Does the leg position of nage have anything to do with assisting with the throw? (see my first post where I ask whether we should use our front leg to act as a sort of a 'trip'.

Reuben
05-11-2011, 01:48 AM
Now people say that Aikido if applied correctly will always be beautiful and that if it isn't executed in a single stroke, you're doing it wrong.

I beg to differ. Aikido is Aikido if the principles are adhered to and the opponent is neutralized without permanent/serious injury (I'm also assuming arm breaks count as a serious injury) then it's Aikido. The techniques are merely a path and an expression of how to do this developing the building blocks for such a method of defending oneself.

I therefore present to you Koichi Tohei's video of him dealing with a person with little knowledge of Aikido. Of course you can see both participants are holding back. Herman (the big guy) isn't really charging him full on but just resisting the technique while Tohei isn't also being an ass.

The results are as follows:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvJ3bI-VyDg

Also read this article (http://books.google.com.my/books?id=wNYDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA90&lpg=PA90&dq=koichi+tohei+herman&source=bl&ots=N5dxcxz5j4&sig=I_Zg4yTGtnC8n58lQOl8FCSgnHU&hl=en&ei=fC3KTfaBFo2urAfMupGiBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CCEQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=koichi%20tohei%20herman&f=false).

Does this shake my belief in the idealized form of Aikido? Yes.

Does this mean that Aikido is useless? Far from it, I thought it was a good demonstration of an understanding of balance and movement could be used to neutralize a larger person without harming him.

If we accept Aikido as not having to be beautiful but techniques to be seen as the 'perfect' idealized forms which we can aspire to but not necessarily pull off in a random true conflict situation, it becomes much more easier to accept Aikido as a martial art.

Reminds me a bit of Plato who postulated that below the world of apparent change is a world of timeless unchanging essences which are templates for ordinary objects on earth, for example, that for each actual horse there exists somewhere a perfect ‘Horse Form’ of which real horses are but imperfect imitations.

We may never achieve the 'ideal' horse but we can compare our horses whether it's closer or further from this ideal. I think this is a useful way of viewing Aikido techniques.

We aim for the ideal knowing that it may be impossible to reach, but when we fail to reach it, we should not dismiss the entire idea as unworkable. A horse is still a horse however imperfect it is as long as it meets the basic parameters of what a horse is.

Similarly the same goes with Aikido?

Just my 2 cents.

Michael Varin
05-11-2011, 04:07 AM
Reuben,

I like your attitude.

And anyone who reposts the infamous Herman vs. Tohei video gets major respect from me. The attempts to excuse Tohei's blatant lack of skills in that video always make me chuckle. To Tohei's credit I will acknowledge that he was working against a significant weight advantage.

I will second what Demetrio said earlier. You cannot put a square peg into a round hole... At least not with great difficulty and damage to the pieces involved.

You have to look at the context from which these techniques came. Then you will start to see the problems for which they were devised to solve.

A boxer's 1-2 combo is not of much concern to a man armed with a sword. In fact, I would say that unless you knock him out with one punch, it was an insane way to attack.

Even against a knife a boxer is over matched and will likely lose a battle of attrition.

These techniques came from a time when the men who used them always carried weapons and wanted to use those weapons as their primary tools of attack and defense.

Squaring up to throw punches or grapple with such an opponent just doesn't fit into the equation.

What types of scenarios would likely be of great concern to a swordsman? Fighting other armed opponents? Fighting multiple opponents? Fighting someone who is unarmed but is attempting to impede your use of your weapon?

The answer is right there.

Look at the evasions or blends in aikido. As demonstrated in your video they do not make much sense against a boxer. Their risk is much greater than their reward. As far as Joe's advice goes, it's simply unrealistic... It will only happen by chance. And there are many more higher percentage and more appropriate techniques available for that situation.

Now, picture an attack with a weapon. Do the blends suddenly become easier? No! But do they make infinitely more sense? Yes. And you will find that the risk versus reward is now more balanced. If you approach weapons defense with a boxers mentality and use the defenses taught in boxing, you are sure to be a dead man. If you use the blends seen in aikido you may have a chance to survive.

To be effective there is still much work to do, but if you are not able to understand the context of your martial art there will be no end to the confusion and frustration.

Demetrio Cereijo
05-11-2011, 05:44 AM
You have to look at the context from which these techniques came. Then you will start to see the problems for which they were devised to solve.

In this sense, I suggest to look into european medieval-renaissance martial arts manuals. There you can see lots of aikido looking techniques for defending against sword or dagger wielding attackers.

Marc Abrams
05-11-2011, 07:49 AM
Reuben,

I like your attitude.

And anyone who reposts the infamous Herman vs. Tohei video gets major respect from me. The attempts to excuse Tohei's blatant lack of skills in that video always make me chuckle. To Tohei's credit I will acknowledge that he was working against a significant weight advantage.



Michael:

On what basis have you concluded that Tohei Sensei had a blatant lack of skills? I suppose you have some first hand knowledge of that? Maybe you would like to talk about some of the senior deshi of O'Sensei who thought that way as well and told you so? Maybe you have some first hand accounts from some of the well-respected martial artists of that time who made their way through that dojo? Maybe you are just blowing smoke from where the sun don't shine?

As to the discussion at hand, if you are genuinely connected to the attacker, the attack will dictate the technique. The other way around is just hypothetical talk......

Marc Abrams

sakumeikan
05-11-2011, 08:09 AM
Reuben,

I like your attitude.

And anyone who reposts the infamous Herman vs. Tohei video gets major respect from me. The attempts to excuse Tohei's blatant lack of skills in that video always make me chuckle. To Tohei's credit I will acknowledge that he was working against a significant weight advantage.

I will second what Demetrio said earlier. You cannot put a square peg into a round hole... At least not with great difficulty and damage to the pieces involved.

You have to look at the context from which these techniques came. Then you will start to see the problems for which they were devised to solve.

A boxer's 1-2 combo is not of much concern to a man armed with a sword. In fact, I would say that unless you knock him out with one punch, it was an insane way to attack.

Even against a knife a boxer is over matched and will likely lose a battle of attrition.

These techniques came from a time when the men who used them always carried weapons and wanted to use those weapons as their primary tools of attack and defense.

Squaring up to throw punches or grapple with such an opponent just doesn't fit into the equation.

What types of scenarios would likely be of great concern to a swordsman? Fighting other armed opponents? Fighting multiple opponents? Fighting someone who is unarmed but is attempting to impede your use of your weapon?

The answer is right there.

Look at the evasions or blends in aikido. As demonstrated in your video they do not make much sense against a boxer. Their risk is much greater than their reward. As far as Joe's advice goes, it's simply unrealistic... It will only happen by chance. And there are many more higher percentage and more appropriate techniques available for that situation.

Now, picture an attack with a weapon. Do the blends suddenly become easier? No! But do they make infinitely more sense? Yes. And you will find that the risk versus reward is now more balanced. If you approach weapons defense with a boxers mentality and use the defenses taught in boxing, you are sure to be a dead man. If you use the blends seen in aikido you may have a chance to survive.

To be effective there is still much work to do, but if you are not able to understand the context of your martial art there will be no end to the confusion and frustration.

Dear Michael,
Please note we are being asked how to apply a specific waza [Ude Kime Nage ] to a boxer.I would not personally choose this waza to handle this situation.Having said that I stated that entering into and getting on the opponents dead side[I assume you know where that is[not being condecending] you shorten the distance obviously and you are or should be close to your uke.
This enables you to initiate various waza[if you enter deeply ] eg choke waza is possible.Chance does not come into the equation.
You either get hit or you dont. Same with weapons.
Regarding the Tohei /Herman incident I believe Tohei Sensei was set limitations on what he could do.In a separate challenge match with one of two large brothers who engaged Tohei Sensei in a challenge match Tohei Sensei pinned the opponent .The other brother declined an invitation to try his luck.
Thanks for your constructive criticism , Cheers, Joe.

sakumeikan
05-11-2011, 08:28 AM
Thanks Joe! Your replies are very insightful and I was hoping I could trouble you with a few more to clarify some things.

I know we can't apply udekimenage in certain situations and these situations often change.

I guess this question is divided into three parts (sorry couldn't be more concise).

Question 1: My question is in what ideal but plausible situation can we apply udekimenage relating to the entry and control?

I am assuming this is from a cross which is closest to how we practice tsuki since a jab is in most cases non-commital and fast. My aiki-solution to jabs is just to parry, or to maintain ma-ai

Would I need to move my body and establish control of the hand before he pulls back his punching arm? I feel that this is only possible if the punch itself is not balanced and slow in retracting or nage has already anticipated the cross.

One of the difficulties is that although there are I times where my timing is good and I can indeed cut the hand before it retracts but the moment he feels the grip, there's an instinct for uke to pull back the hand rather than to overextend it. This happens VERY fast often unconsciously by uke.

Is udekimenage then not the right technique to do and it's better to just do an irimi throw and something else that appears more natural? If so then udekimenage has some use albeit a rather limited role (where a punch is unbalanced and the uke is slow in pulling back).

Question 2: In facing an assailant who does not attack in one swift attack but rather squares off to you before teeing off, what is a valid Aiki strategy?

How I view Aikido against such an assailant is that I should evade or parry (or in Aiki terms, redirect) the the non committal or setup attacks (for e.g. jabs), perhaps throwing in some atemi to create attempts to move in or break the opponent's rhythm and once he does indeed overextend himself then it's time to spring into action (which was my approach in the video).

I understand Aikido is not to be seen as a sparring art, but not all self defense situations are one where the uke is enraged and charging you and throwing wild punches. There are some who may have a little experience in punching and know better than to open with a huge single attack unless it's a sucker punch (I think anyone who has brawled before will know this).

Question 3:The throw itself is actually therefore a direct attack on the elbow joint rather than a true 'throw'?

I often get the stumble forward reaction even when I apply with a deep entering and projection down and forward. Uke says he feels the projection and the power of the projection but feels he can still remain standing.

Is therefore the only way for this to be applied is a very direct attack on the joint and if he resists he then breaks his elbow? (assuming this is not training). Does the leg position of nage have anything to do with assisting with the throw? (see my first post where I ask whether we should use our front leg to act as a sort of a 'trip'.
Dear Rueben,
To make a stab at your question[not in numerical order]
Question Two;
If the opponent just squares up and does not launch an attack -do nothing.Keep calm /alert and respond to his movement
as and when he launches the attack.If you see a gap in Ukes
armour, do whatever it takes to exploit this gap.Aikido waza can be anything you choose to use.
Question Three
Ideally the whole body is involved in Aikido, be it throwing /pinning waza.Ude kime Nage because there is a potential to
damage the elbow joint, if it is required to take extreme measures so be it.
QuestionOne,
You have to assess the situation.It depends on the speed /angle and trajectory of the punch.If Uke is powerful, neutralises him by absorbing the attack [draw him out [Ushiro Tenkan -then enter and complete Ude Kime Nage ].If attack is not too positive ,
enter in direct[as I indicated last blog ]and throw the guy.
Basically you have two options 1.You either shorten the distance between you both .2. You make the partner overextend
his reach.As one of our other contributors stated Ukes actions determines your responses.
Cheers Joe.

Demetrio Cereijo
05-11-2011, 09:01 AM
Question Two;
If the opponent just squares up and does not launch an attack -do nothing.Keep calm /alert and respond to his movement
as and when he launches the attack.If you see a gap in Ukes
armour, do whatever it takes to exploit this gap.Aikido waza can be anything you choose to use.

Hi Joe,

Another option in this case is taking the initiative instead of waiting for him/her to attack.

Cheers.

Dazzler
05-11-2011, 09:04 AM
Hi Joe,

Another option in this case is taking the initiative instead of waiting for him/her to attack.

Cheers.

With attack being best form of defence that is very true.

Just check for cameras first.

jonreading
05-11-2011, 09:09 AM
I had (and still have) lots o' trouble with ude kime nage. I believe that our current ude kime nage (and other kokyu nage throws such as kaiten nage) were altered by O'Sensei and subsequent shihan to be more safe to practice. Largely, my proof of these altered techniques lies in the outward expression of ukemi. That is, we do not direct our opponent into the ground [as directly]; we throw our opponent away with a clear path of ukemi. I believe this altered ending is inconsistent with some of the older jujitsu arts where nage focused tori's energy into the ground. In Judo we call this "dashing" and the reference is to place tori's shoulders close to your feet.

The several references to a Judo-like application of this technique often put back into the technique the "dashing" component. The arm bar holds uke close to nage; both a foot sweep that removes the balance structure and the top-heavy shoulder pressure drives uke into the ground. If uke avoids the foot sweep and escapes he leaves beyond a balance void (shikaku) from the extra step. I think ude kime nage in aikido is representative of these principles without the danger of the fall. Try any of the related Judo applications and I think you get a different result, compliant uke or not. :) But that's not aikido, right?

To get more technical, I think a big part that we miss is the irrimi component of the throw. When I thought about ude kime nage as a throw I always entered too shallow. I am moving to get behind my attacker, then turning to deliver my counter-attack. My partner needs to feel my energy/intent behind her and recognize the inherent danger in my position. She should be abandoning her position in conjunction with me applying pressure, the result is her balance broken forward. The irrimi is the cause of kuzushi and why I am able to move through her shoulder without opposition. Also, I think we sometimes move our inside leg too soon. when I enter, I move with a tenkai but I do not step through the throw until I have started her movement. If I move my leg through the throw too soon I find that I give her a balance structure and lose kuzushi.

My opinion on ude kime nage is that it was modified and you need a little work to get back some of the functioning jutsu. I do not think that is a bad thing but it does mean you need to be sensitive to the potential of what nage could be doing to you. I turned to judo to find some of the functional aspects of ude kime nage and there is no shortage of techniques that clinch tori's arm while removing the lower balance structure - they just don't give tori a nice projected exist strategy.

Maarten De Queecker
05-11-2011, 09:10 AM
Reuben,

I like your attitude.

And anyone who reposts the infamous Herman vs. Tohei video gets major respect from me. The attempts to excuse Tohei's blatant lack of skills in that video always make me chuckle. To Tohei's credit I will acknowledge that he was working against a significant weight advantage.

I will second what Demetrio said earlier. You cannot put a square peg into a round hole... At least not with great difficulty and damage to the pieces involved.

You have to look at the context from which these techniques came. Then you will start to see the problems for which they were devised to solve.

A boxer's 1-2 combo is not of much concern to a man armed with a sword. In fact, I would say that unless you knock him out with one punch, it was an insane way to attack.

Even against a knife a boxer is over matched and will likely lose a battle of attrition.

These techniques came from a time when the men who used them always carried weapons and wanted to use those weapons as their primary tools of attack and defense.

Squaring up to throw punches or grapple with such an opponent just doesn't fit into the equation.

What types of scenarios would likely be of great concern to a swordsman? Fighting other armed opponents? Fighting multiple opponents? Fighting someone who is unarmed but is attempting to impede your use of your weapon?

The answer is right there.

Look at the evasions or blends in aikido. As demonstrated in your video they do not make much sense against a boxer. Their risk is much greater than their reward. As far as Joe's advice goes, it's simply unrealistic... It will only happen by chance. And there are many more higher percentage and more appropriate techniques available for that situation.

Now, picture an attack with a weapon. Do the blends suddenly become easier? No! But do they make infinitely more sense? Yes. And you will find that the risk versus reward is now more balanced. If you approach weapons defense with a boxers mentality and use the defenses taught in boxing, you are sure to be a dead man. If you use the blends seen in aikido you may have a chance to survive.

To be effective there is still much work to do, but if you are not able to understand the context of your martial art there will be no end to the confusion and frustration.

This post should get a place in some kind of hall of fame...

Andy Kazama
05-11-2011, 09:52 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_718dOW09k
Shinya Aoki @ 2 mins. Obviously, this is VERY Jitsu/applied, but if you watch the fight up to this point I think there are a couple of useful points, including the use of the leg trips (ouchi gari) to set this up and get "uke's" hips back, creating the opportunity for kazushi - likely key to making this technique work both in/outside the dojo.

Demetrio Cereijo
05-11-2011, 10:16 AM
With attack being best form of defence that is very true.

Just check for cameras first.

As long as the attack is "inminent" I'm legally covered here.

Ed.

Have you seen Iaido episode of "Samurai Spirit"?

This part (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMQfVtrJjvY) is very interesting, imho. Starting at 8:19

sakumeikan
05-11-2011, 12:48 PM
Hi Joe,

Another option in this case is taking the initiative instead of waiting for him/her to attack.

Cheers.

Dear Demetrio,
Yes indeed!! I was working on the pricincple that Uke made the first move.As you say you dont have to wait, but Uke Kme Nage would not be my first choice -perhaps an handy bar stool/3 by 2 chunk of seasoned timber over the brainbox of the assailant might be a better and more reliable option[and no need to study for years /decades to acquire such basic skills].
Cheers, Joe.

Reuben
05-11-2011, 09:48 PM
Thank you for the responses. I would have to go through them later in the day when I have more time but am happy to see healthy discussion here!

I just thought that I'll chip in here what I tried in my dojo yesterday night.

One of our seniors showed me that udekimenage executed in such a way that really propels you forward despite the attempt to post.

What we did was the following:
a) Uke is offbalanced to the side (he's slightly leaning off where his extended hand is). I knew this but it was the 2nd bit that really made the difference

b) A twist in the extended hand has to be be applied firmly (if you're nage, you are twisting the hand TOWARDS YOU, almost but not exactly like a motorcycle rev I suppose). This helps greatly in twisting the opponent's body into a more off-balanced position and generates a bit of 'lift' where the uke feels like he has to tiptoe a bit (similar to the action on the wrist on a shihonage entry). I felt that the twist and lift were key in off-balancing the uke in two more different axises.

c) Then drive forward and down with the shoulder (of course using your whole body weight) against the upper arm just above the elbow. Uke's arm should be brought close to you while you do this so that nage's full weight is felt into the throw and not just an attack on the elbow.

Even from a static position and WITHOUT the leg post (though I suppose no harm to implement it as well), uke is flung to the ground and attempts to post made him almost eat his own knee. Uke was significantly larger than me but for the sake of practice and theory we started from the offbalanced position and then he resisted.

One of my main problems was that my wrists are comparatively small and frail in comparison to my size so having the required wrist strength to achieve this twist was difficult especially against people with big or strong wrists. Having strong wrists you have to admit helps a great deal both in taking techniques and also applying techniques. Indeed in Aikido we have exercises to strengthen the wrist so I guess time to do more of those :P

Just to clarify that the 'boxer thing' is a separate issue from the 'udekimenage' question. It just developed and somehow got merged until I myself got confused as to what my question was:D Until Demetrio and Joe's discussion I was not asking how to apply udekimenage to a boxer's punches.

The main question is: How to apply udekimenage against resistance where many ppl have contributed here and I believe I might have found the answer as above.

The second question which branched off (and then unwittingly merged) was: When facing someone who punches reasonably well (i'm not even talking about a trained boxer which Aikido is not designed to deal with and I GET THAT (lol so please don't say square peg round hole thing) ) but perhaps your average Joe who knows how to throw a one-two what kind of strategies and techniques are effective. I posted what I felt worked for me (and a video albeit a poor example of it) but wanted your thoughts. You have to admit that in a 'real life' unarmed situation, punches are by far the MOST common and they aren't of the sort that we practice in dojos.

So let's separate the two questions now since it is clear that udekimenage ISN'T an ideal technique for one-twos or balanced strikers.

I can say this having got into several altercations myself from idiots who just wish to pick a fight (for e.g. jealous ex boyfriends or guys in clubs trying to show their stuff). In those situations, no beautiful Aikido technique flowed unfortunately but just a step off the attack, followed by a punch to their face which was in my EXTREMELY FORTUNATE cases sufficient in flooring them before I quickly left the scene.

An interesting story which I wish to share, one of these guys even had the cheek (after I had floored him), to ask me to give him a free punch back since I had 'punched him first' (he attacked first but I made contact first) and grabbed my belongings (my Blackberry with all my contacts and business e-mails) refusing to let me leave. After about 5 minutes of trying to get my stuff back through negotiation or quick snatches, I unfortunately just lost it, high mounted him and then threatened to end him after which I think he was shocked at my change of demeanor and started shivering maybe in fear or god knows what.

I grabbed my phone then left but I was not proud of myself that day as I knew that if he had attempted to punch me while I was in mount, I would have just gone berserk since I was so close to the breaking point. Would have been nice to get him in some nice Aiki lock and then retrieve my Blackberry rather than losing it that day but looking back I really wouldn't know how else to have dealt with it.

Carsten Möllering
05-12-2011, 04:03 AM
Could you share how you do it?
Hm, no specific "tricks". Very "normal".

Not breaking ukes elbow but locking it (compare hiji kime osae), so bringing strain (?) to his arm and by this creating a connection to ukes center.
Throwing in the direction of uke, not forward.
I emphasize very much on the rotation of toris arm which lies under ukes elbow. This seems most important to me.

No leg sweeping or something like that. Not hitting ukes elbow.
Just "normal" waza.

I just found this video. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MIVo68o6Sg&feature=player_detailpage#t=89s) (But it's a little bit "show".)

Demetrio Cereijo
05-12-2011, 06:14 AM
Have anyone found a video of Ude kime nage performed on a resisting (I mean fighting back) opponent?

sakumeikan
05-12-2011, 07:13 AM
Hm, no specific "tricks". Very "normal".

Not breaking ukes elbow but locking it (compare hiji kime osae), so bringing strain (?) to his arm and by this creating a connection to ukes center.
Throwing in the direction of uke, not forward.
I emphasize very much on the rotation of toris arm which lies under ukes elbow. This seems most important to me.

No leg sweeping or something like that. Not hitting ukes elbow.
Just "normal" waza.

I just found this video. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MIVo68o6Sg&feature=player_detailpage#t=89s) (But it's a little bit "show".)

Dear Carsten,
In each of the points you make I would generally agree on .These are fine in a dojo, but within the context of the original post I think you might have to modify the waza to suit the uncompromising Uke.
Cheers, Joe.

Carsten Möllering
05-12-2011, 08:08 AM
... .These are fine in a dojo, but within the context of the original post I think you might have to modify the waza to suit the uncompromising Uke.

Yes, maybe true. I practiced with non aikidoka but only in dojo or gyms.

Amir Krause
05-12-2011, 10:32 AM
udekimenage

At least the way |I learn Aikido, the techmnique should be able to break the arm, the combination of good Ukemi with the break possiblity, leads to a throw as Uke tries to escape your technique.

The break is oriented slightly up, so Uke will raise himself to escape, and would not be able to evade the technique with a single step.

This is not a simple technique, it takes lots of training in order to create force with varying vectors against his arm while only touching it at your elbow, without a grab.

As for the boxing Video
Very nice and couragious try, but you are missing the most important thing - you keep staying out of distance. As the puncher closes the distance, you must not retreat, rather you have to advance and get to his side, at which point you will find may opportunities stating to arise, in order to really get those chances, you should create Kuzushi and not by a grab&pull of Uke rather by understanding the center and positioning yourself accordingly.
The latter is not simple, and takes lot and lots of practice with slow punches, getting faster and more sophisticated as you progress.

Amir

Aikibu
05-12-2011, 01:33 PM
udekimenage

At least the way |I learn Aikido, the techmnique should be able to break the arm, the combination of good Ukemi with the break possiblity, leads to a throw as Uke tries to escape your technique.

The break is oriented slightly up, so Uke will raise himself to escape, and would not be able to evade the technique with a single step.

This is not a simple technique, it takes lots of training in order to create force with varying vectors against his arm while only touching it at your elbow, without a grab.

As for the boxing Video
Very nice and couragious try, but you are missing the most important thing - you keep staying out of distance. As the puncher closes the distance, you must not retreat, rather you have to advance and get to his side, at which point you will find may opportunities stating to arise, in order to really get those chances, you should create Kuzushi and not by a grab&pull of Uke rather by understanding the center and positioning yourself accordingly.
The latter is not simple, and takes lot and lots of practice with slow punches, getting faster and more sophisticated as you progress.

Amir

What Amir said...Thank You. :)

Reuben
05-13-2011, 12:43 AM
udekimenage

At least the way |I learn Aikido, the techmnique should be able to break the arm, the combination of good Ukemi with the break possiblity, leads to a throw as Uke tries to escape your technique.

The break is oriented slightly up, so Uke will raise himself to escape, and would not be able to evade the technique with a single step.

This is not a simple technique, it takes lots of training in order to create force with varying vectors against his arm while only touching it at your elbow, without a grab.

As for the boxing Video
Very nice and couragious try, but you are missing the most important thing - you keep staying out of distance. As the puncher closes the distance, you must not retreat, rather you have to advance and get to his side, at which point you will find may opportunities stating to arise, in order to really get those chances, you should create Kuzushi and not by a grab&pull of Uke rather by understanding the center and positioning yourself accordingly.
The latter is not simple, and takes lot and lots of practice with slow punches, getting faster and more sophisticated as you progress.

Amir

Interesting! Thanks for your thoughts!

Carsten Möllering
05-13-2011, 03:24 AM
The break is oriented slightly up, so Uke will raise himself to escape, and would not be able to evade the technique with a single step.yes

This is not a simple technique, it takes lots of training in order to create force with varying vectors against his arm while only touching it at your elbow, without a grab.
exactly

jeremymcmillan
07-06-2011, 09:59 PM
This is my favorite throw! At my dojo, it's called "kokyunage" like so many other different techniques. I recently learned some secrets of this technique. OTOH, I'm a beginner and maybe I'm suggesting very bad things. I submit to the collective wisdom of the forum :).

First, this is the AWA canon: taisabaki, taisabaki, taisabaki. It's a tenkan technique. For it to work, nage must have footwork to match the reach/velocity of uke's attack entry. Second, approach this like it was shihonage, and in fact it's great to do a few shihonage first to get things working.

Like shihonage, Uke's attacking arm will be rotated in a kotegaesh direction to reduce degrees of freedom in uke's arm. Nage has to grasp Uke crosshand, from underneath, with an upturned palm to be able to manupulate Uke's arm easily. Nage wants Uke's back to begin arching. It can help with form for Nage to get under Uke's attacking arm to apply upward pressure on Uke's attacking elbow as the tenkan brings Uke alongside. This is where Uke's balance is taken. Try this: if Nage doesn't get Uke's balance here, Uke can reverse with a sayu undo movement like sokumen iriminage.

So far, this is all like shihonage, but Nage can keep the crosshand grasp, with the kote-gaesh typerotation locking up Uke's arm to upper spine, and let go with the other hand. Nage, in this situation, has lots of options. If nage wants Uke to fall backwards, it's shihonage, but if Nage wants Uke to fall forwards, Nage uses ushirotori undo movement with a sliding step to give Uke some energy in the throw.

Shouldering into Uke's elbow will hyperextend the joint and is not cool on the mat. Uke is often a LOT taller than me, so I use more torque on the arm, and I try to bring Uke's upper arm down to my shoulder, and cut obliquely down like yokomenuchi, allowing my back foot to sweep behind me with the hip rotation. With shorter Uke, the throw can be more linear.

I'm not sure, but it seems like this could be like a kotegaesh breakfall for Uke if the throw has too much power/rotation. The forward slide into the projection seems to be an Aiki attenuation of the technique.

Reuben
07-06-2011, 10:27 PM
I had a pretty high ranking Shihan do this on me but it didn't work :( I felt a forward projection but could easily post. I asked him to do it twice but didn't want to push it further for fear of offending.

Now you would say, well if he had really tried, then he would have broken your arm to which I would say, then my initial suspicion that it's a elbow break technique was correct.

Now, interestingly, I tried this on some yudansha and asked them to resist and it had VERY different effects. When they tried to resist, it resulted in them almost smacking their face on their knee.

However when trying on my boxing sparring partners, I couldn't get the desired effect even when simulating ideal break of posture. One of the problems is that fighters are taught to resquare their hips to their opponent as fast as possible, making taisabaki, tenkan extremely difficult. Even some newbies who have a good innate fight sense do this.

Amir Krause
07-07-2011, 09:27 AM
I had a pretty high ranking Shihan do this on me but it didn't work :( I felt a forward projection but could easily post. I asked him to do it twice but didn't want to push it further for fear of offending.

Now you would say, well if he had really tried, then he would have broken your arm to which I would say, then my initial suspicion that it's a elbow break technique was correct.

At least the way I learn Aikido, all techniques should create damage when applied with full force and speed against an attacker who is not prepared to the technique. Then once again, I practice Korindo and not Ueshiba Aikido, my way is not your way ...

As for the encounter with the Shihan and your feeling of his in-sufficient technique, the same reasons I wrote below, about you, also aply to him.
Plus if he were teaching, he may have to do the technique on you, exactly the same in repititive manner, even after he recognizes the opportunity is wrong (and variation\ technical shift is required), in order not to break the lesson.
In such circumstances, he may also expect his Uke (You) to assist in generation of the best opprtunity (so the other students will see it and log it in their memories). in some instances, he would rightfully consider you to be a "bad uke" (for demonstrations) afterwards.
Unless you have some kind of a "private session" with a feeling of :open communications", beware of making any conclusions from such encounters, you do not know his reasons/thoughts/etc.


Now, interestingly, I tried this on some yudansha and asked them to resist and it had VERY different effects. When they tried to resist, it resulted in them almost smacking their face on their knee.

However when trying on my boxing sparring partners, I couldn't get the desired effect even when simulating ideal break of posture. One of the problems is that fighters are taught to resquare their hips to their opponent as fast as possible, making taisabaki, tenkan extremely difficult. Even some newbies who have a good innate fight sense do this.

Your boxing partner, as well as many newbes, may create difficulties to you from one of the following reasons:
1) Your Kuzushi is not good enough,or the technique build-up takes too long. They regain balance ("square their hips"), at this point, no real lock should be attempted. The yudansha give you a chance, and slow their rebalancing (maybe even to stand-still).
2) Your uke knows what is coming, and makes minor shifts that negate the opportunity, and, since you do not control the technique yet, you miss the indications of this.

Good luck
Amir

Ba2m
07-14-2011, 05:43 PM
Hi Reuben and all,

Related with this ude kime nage impact issue, it might be interesting to watch and discuss this video (at 2:00) when the fighter apply something looks very similar with ude kime nage (but he did it in extreme version)..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_718dOW09k

My spontaneous reaction of seeing this video was I am thinking probably this is how ude kime nage looks like in the complicated situation of real fight. Please tell me your opinion..

ps: I don't know exactly what happen with the opponent left elbow after that but i really feel so sorry for him :( , i hope he could fully recover from the injury.

Reuben
07-14-2011, 10:13 PM
Thanks for all the replies!

Amir: True it was actually not in front of other students and it was a specific question that I posed to him but point taken especially if further 'testing' would result in me breaking my arm. Agreed on not trying a lock once uke has re-squared.

Abraham: It's a bit different in that the hand is secured and it looks like it was clamped down to break/manuever the opponent as opposed to udekimenage where it is a 'throw'. As how I understand it, udekimenage should project the opponent forward or it will break his elbow joint while in the video it looks like breaking the joint was the intention rather than a projection. It left his opponent no way to escape in a peaceful manner whereas in Aikido there's still that option.

I suppose the question is what is the sensitivity required when using udekimenage that would prompt uke to be thrown forward instead of breaking his elbow. Too fast and strong, and it'll just be an elbow break, too slow, and the effect of the throw is diminished as he recentres and there's no real incentive for him to move forward.

Perhaps the answer lies in this sensitivity. In putting enough energy forward to make a real opponent prompted to project and if he resists, then a broken elbow but not so much speed and energy to give him no opportunity to opt to roll forward.

It's like Uke has to choose either
a) broken elbow OR
b) forward projection

I suppose it's quite difficult to practice this in a dojo environment to see if it works in real life since nage has to be committed in his technique enough that if resistance is given, uke's elbow will be broken. If nage is still 'nice' about it, then there would not be sufficient impetus for a resisting opponent to fall forward.

In short, udekimenage is not a 'NICE' throw. It's you roll or you get injured. Compare this to iriminage or shihonage where the throw is inexorable and cannot be resisted once balance is broken but does not require any joint breaking for it to work. Here udekimenage has an element of 'u may be injured so you better roll'.

Thoughts on this?

Ba2m
07-14-2011, 11:06 PM
It's like Uke has to choose either
a) broken elbow OR
b) forward projection

In short, udekimenage is not a 'NICE' throw. It's you roll or you get injured. Compare this to iriminage or shihonage where the throw is inexorable and cannot be resisted once balance is broken but does not require any joint breaking for it to work. Here udekimenage has an element of 'u may be injured so you better roll'.

Thoughts on this?

Interesting thought.

I don't know that there is a category based on level of effectiveness of the techniques. Because my sensei told me that all the technique are very dangerous and very applicable in specific situation, where we can only learn to detect what situation for what technique by time and experience , because all the decision and the process will be happened in split second.

I also have always been told repeatedly by my sensei's that :
1. all of the technique should be done in "special way" to respect and protect our training partners who are willing to help our growth. Example : don't push on uke's elbow, aware when pulling uke's hand in shihonage, etc.
2. Everybody especially the beginners have to work hard to improve their ukemi and breakfall. Because the goal of ukemi and breakfall techniques is self protection. Especially when technique is done very fast and the projection of the throw is very hard (in advance level), uke will get severely injured when they can't response well with perfect ukemi/breakfall technique. (before this, once i thought the breakfall and ukemi technique are intended for show or demonstration :o :p )

But i will discuss this with my senpai's and my sensei's at the dojo, thank you for bringing up this discussion. It's really interesting. Ow btw, maybe i need to tell you that i am just a beginner in aikido , but really interested to learn many things especially from the discussions in this forum, so.. i am really sorry if i have something wrong on what i am saying here. Thanks. :)

Reuben
07-14-2011, 11:11 PM
Interesting thought.

I don't know that there is a category based on level of effectiveness of the techniques. Because my sensei told me that all the technique are very dangerous and very applicable in specific situation, where we can only learn to detect what situation for what technique by time and experience , because all the decision and the process will be happened in split second.

I also have always been told repeatedly by my sensei's that :
1. all of the technique should be done in "special way" to respect and protect our training partners who are willing to help our growth. Example : don't push on uke's elbow, aware when pulling uke's hand in shihonage, etc.
2. Everybody especially the beginners have to work hard to improve their ukemi and breakfall. Because the goal of ukemi and breakfall techniques is self protection. Especially when technique is done very fast and the projection of the throw is very hard, uke will get severely injured when they can't response well with perfect ukemi/breakfall technique. (before this, once i thought the breakfall and ukemi technique are intended for show or demonstration :o :p )

But i will discuss this with my senpai's and my sensei's at the dojo, thank you for bringing up this discussion. It's really interesting. Ow btw, maybe i need to tell you that i am just a beginner in aikido , but really interested to learn many things especially from the discussions in this forum, so.. i am really sorry if i have something wrong on what i am saying here. Thanks. :)

If there is indeed a special way in doing this technique, I'll be very interested on your findings with your Senseis and Sempai.

I humbly suggest that you try resisting the technique WITHOUT rolling in that if you feel the forward projection, just post your leg forward instead of going into a roll. Make sure you trust your partner lest he break your arm for your 'resistance' which is not what we're looking for :D. I'll post a video on this later today when I go to the dojo.

Ba2m
07-14-2011, 11:22 PM
If there is indeed a special way in doing this technique, I'll be very interested on your findings with your Senseis and Sempai.
Actually, what i mean with the "special way" is doing the technique by being aware of uke's safety. Which is different with the way of applying it to real attackers.

I humbly suggest that you try resisting the technique WITHOUT rolling in that if you feel the forward projection, just post your leg forward instead of going into a roll. Make sure you trust your partner lest he break your arm for your 'resistance' which is not what we're looking for :D. I'll post a video on this later today when I go to the dojo.
Okay i will try it. Actually i had an experience resisting when i trained this technique, but my sensei was aware and he told me that i have to roll and follow the direction, otherwise i will break my arm if i resist this technique and the nage put strong pressure by his center in applying this technique.

JW
07-15-2011, 11:01 AM
Hi Reuben, just from a theoretical point of view: one thing has to happen to make it require a roll as opposed to just a walking/jogging/hopping forward projection. That one thing is that the top of the body has to get accelerated forward, while the legs/bottom of body gets a lot less forward acceleration (or even gets acceleration in the opposite direction).
You pointed out one way to make this happen-- stop the uke's legs with your hip or your leg. Extreme version of this is judo-like throws or turning this into koshi nage.
In terms of basic mechanics of making it a throw instead of a forward shove or an "elbow attack," that will do it.

Another way to do this same top/bottom trick would be to manipulate the sensation of weight so that he can't step forward easily-- so there is some difficulty stepping, all the while his upper body is getting a lot of acceleration. I think the way to practice that is the common exercises of lifting (kokyu dosa or aiki age) as well as doing tai-no-henko with a sinking feeling. Still working on that. But neither of these threaten the elbow, it is just lifting and sinking, in ways that affect where and when he can easily step. So now when you go back to udekimenage, then you have something that is independent of the elbow.

Another way to get the legs moving kind of backward while you take the upper body forward would be a wave motion, maybe something to combine with the above method. In other words go back-then-forward, timed with the wave action in his body (this may be best with soft, flexible ukes), so that the legs are still experiencing "backward," while you have begun driving the "forward" upstairs.

Well, it's a forum so take this with a grain of salt! If I make a video or something then my "theories" can have more credence.

Amir Krause
07-18-2011, 10:12 AM
As how I understand it, udekimenage should project the opponent forward or it will break his elbow joint while in the video it looks like breaking the joint was the intention rather than a projection. It left his opponent no way to escape in a peaceful manner whereas in Aikido there's still that option.

I suppose the question is what is the sensitivity required when using udekimenage that would prompt uke to be thrown forward instead of breaking his elbow. Too fast and strong, and it'll just be an elbow break, too slow, and the effect of the throw is diminished as he recentres and there's no real incentive for him to move forward.


Warning, the text below may be entirely wrong for non-Korindo Aikido

You keep writing about forward momentum, but, if all the pressure you create is directed this way, your Uke will step forward to evade teh technique, without falling or rolling.
In order for Uke to fall / roll, the direction to escape from your break must be downwards. The way I learned creates a pressure that rotates in a circular manner along a small arc, first upwards and then downwards, thus creating Kuzushi and throwing Uke (or breaking his arm).

Hi Reuben, just from a theoretical point of view: one thing has to happen to make it require a roll as opposed to just a walking/jogging/hopping forward projection. That one thing is that the top of the body has to get accelerated forward, while the legs/bottom of body gets a lot less forward acceleration (or even gets acceleration in the opposite direction).
You pointed out one way to make this happen-- stop the uke's legs with your hip or your leg. Extreme version of this is judo-like throws or turning this into koshi nage.
In terms of basic mechanics of making it a throw instead of a forward shove or an "elbow attack," that will do it.

Another way to do this same top/bottom trick would be to manipulate the sensation of weight so that he can't step forward easily-- so there is some difficulty stepping, all the while his upper body is getting a lot of acceleration. I think the way to practice that is the common exercises of lifting (kokyu dosa or aiki age) as well as doing tai-no-henko with a sinking feeling. Still working on that. But neither of these threaten the elbow, it is just lifting and sinking, in ways that affect where and when he can easily step. So now when you go back to udekimenage, then you have something that is independent of the elbow.
Another way to get the legs moving kind of backward while you take the upper body forward would be a wave motion, maybe something to combine with the above method. In other words go back-then-forward, timed with the wave action in his body (this may be best with soft, flexible ukes), so that the legs are still experiencing "backward," while you have begun driving the "forward" upstairs.
Well, it's a forum so take this with a grain of salt! If I make a video or something then my "theories" can have more credence.
We might be writing about the same concept, hard to explain movement in words.


Perhaps the answer lies in this sensitivity. In putting enough energy forward to make a real opponent prompted to project and if he resists, then a broken elbow but not so much speed and energy to give him no opportunity to opt to roll forward.

It's like Uke has to choose either
a) broken elbow OR
b) forward projection

I suppose it's quite difficult to practice this in a dojo environment to see if it works in real life since nage has to be committed in his technique enough that if resistance is given, uke's elbow will be broken. If nage is still 'nice' about it, then there would not be sufficient impetus for a resisting opponent to fall forward.

In short, udekimenage is not a 'NICE' throw. It's you roll or you get injured. Compare this to iriminage or shihonage where the throw is inexorable and cannot be resisted once balance is broken but does not require any joint breaking for it to work. Here udekimenage has an element of 'u may be injured so you better roll'.

Thoughts on this?

same warning
Both iriminage and shihonage have variations which are "not nice", and we (beginners excepted) normally practice those, and not the nice ones. shihonage is a break and a backwards imbalance, and if Tori insists, Uke can not even fall to avoid the break (obviously we let go before that in our practice). In riminage, one has a powerful lock on the neck while throwing.

Aikido techniques are not unique, the same techniques exist in multiple styles of Jujutsu (often with lethal variations).

Amir

Ken McGrew
09-01-2011, 04:50 PM
Rueben, if possible it would be much easier to make suggestions if we could see a video of you applying the technique.

Because the technique is not working for you in a given situation does not mean that the technique cannot work. There are mutliple ways of approaching Udekimenage, with some working better in a given situation than others. Even the videos you posted as evidence that the technique doesn't work are not conclusive evidence. We would need to feel the way those instructors applied the technique. There is often more than meets the eye in Aikido. Hiroshi Ikeda Shihan is a good example of this. He often says "looks fake" but I assure you it is not fake. It is internal connection breaking Uke's balance.

Udekimenage works when it fits the situation. If it stops "working" at some point then Nage can simply adjust and change. This is the meaning of Takemuso Aiki. Thinking of Aikido in mostly technical terms is the real problem, it seems, and the problem I have with this entire thread. Aikido is not about forcing a given technique. Aikido, as O'Sensei said, is the art of "absolute non-resistance."

When something isn't working in a given situation the response advocated is often that we should go back to the roots of aikijutsu Etc. Several responders in this thread, for example, have advocated threatening the elbow more to get the technique to work. I generally don't attack the elbow at all as it elicits resistance. Rather I try to capture Uke's momentum, move my arm under the arm pit, and shape Uke's trajectory off his or her original line. Udekimenage is in the breath throw family of techniques after all.

Threatening the elbow is one response and it might work. Or it might not in a particular context with a particular attacker. Changing to a different technique when something stops working might be a better approach. It is also possible to change the way you are approaching udekimenage on the fly in the middle of the technique (dropping your weight, moving through Uke with your body, Etc.).

Whether changing between techniques or changing within the same technique it will be necessary to feel what is happening between Uke and Nage in order to respond appropriately. This is why there can be no accurate description of how to do a given technique that "will work." When O'Sensei or senior instructors in Aikido seem to always be able to do a given technique and it always seems to work, even if it looks the same on the surface, it is always different on the inside. You can't step in the same stream twice. This is very important to understand. Aikido is not a collection of techniques.

robin_jet_alt
09-01-2011, 08:08 PM
I don't know if anyone has suggested this yet. I didn't get a chance to read the whole thread. Something you might like to try is to think of it as an atemi. Rather than having your arm at an angle across their elbow, you can draw out their arm so that it is straight and have your arm parallel to theirs. Then hit them with a fingertip strike to the throat while stepping in. As they are responding to this, you can drop your arm and hit them in the nuts. It's not a nice way to do the technique, but it is something to have a play with. If you want to be really cruel, you could grab the jaw bone after the neck strike, but I wouldn't do that with anyone you want to train with again.

dapidmini
09-01-2011, 10:10 PM
and realized that in both these videos there was a slight leg sweep/trip or at least the legs were positioned in a way that prevented the leg from posting. I haven't tried this yet (going to do so asap).


in my experience from getting thrown by Sensei is that the most effective variation of udekimenage is by moving your whole body (or mainly the hip) toward uke with your upper arm somewhere between uke's upper arm and elbow. also make sure that uke's hand is straight, not bent. and when you throw him, use your hip. I had it done to me a few times and the result is quite satisfying. the forward projection I got was a big one.. I don't know if it was just my instinct to ukemi but I did.

Ken McGrew
09-01-2011, 11:57 PM
in my experience from getting thrown by Sensei is that the most effective variation of udekimenage is by moving your whole body (or mainly the hip) toward uke with your upper arm somewhere between uke's upper arm and elbow. also make sure that uke's hand is straight, not bent. and when you throw him, use your hip. I had it done to me a few times and the result is quite satisfying. the forward projection I got was a big one.. I don't know if it was just my instinct to ukemi but I did.

There is no such thing as the one most effective way to do any particular technique. Uke may change so the technique Nage started with is no longer appropriate. Even if it is possible to do a given technique it will always be necessary to feel what is happening and make subtle changes within the technique in order for it "to work" in the dynamic relationship with a given Uke at a particular moment. There are many good ways to perform Udekimenage and Uke must move between these variations in a fluid manner in order for the technique, or any technique, to "work."

Having said this the approach described here does not sound like a particularly good one. It seems to reveal an approach to Aikido in which Nage does Aikido to Uke. Ai Ki Do is "the art of absolute non resistance." Please read up on the concept of takemuso aiki. Please watch videos of O'Sensei. He wasn't forcing techniques. Thus the name and everything he said cut against the idea of an overly mechanical approach to Aikido.

robin_jet_alt
09-02-2011, 01:38 AM
Having made my somewhat violent suggestions earlier, it might also be worth considering the following.

What is the difference between udekime-nage and kokyu-nage? I would suggest there is very little difference apart from the pressure on the elbow. Please watch the video below to see what I mean.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUCY6eFNJZM

So, if you are having trouble with the technique, it might be because a) you are focusing too much on the elbow, and b) you aren't getting all the other aspects that make this essentially a kokyu-nage. Are you able to do the technique shown in the video?

Carsten Möllering
09-02-2011, 02:05 AM
IThen hit them with a fingertip strike to the throat while stepping in. As they are responding to this, you can drop your arm and hit them in the nuts.
Not sure whether I get you right.
But I think you describe what we teach as the most basic form of ude kime nage:
atemi to throat or face with the arm which delivers the kime to ukes arm. Stretching uke. Then atemi to the genitalia with the same hand. Dropping uke.

Tim Ruijs
09-02-2011, 02:33 AM
I was taught that taking ukemi is using the escape provided in the technique.
When doing this technique one should not wait to be thrown: you would not in fact be thrown, your arm would break, that is why you use the escape. Without being a divebunny!

We also set off trying for shihonage, but aite stretches/extends his arm so bending it for shihonage is (near) impossible and then do udekimenage.
So I think the Shihan protected you when you did not move (take ukemi).

robin_jet_alt
09-02-2011, 02:47 AM
Not sure whether I get you right.
But I think you describe what we teach as the most basic form of ude kime nage:
atemi to throat or face with the arm which delivers the kime to ukes arm. Stretching uke. Then atemi to the genitalia with the same hand. Dropping uke.

Yes, that is what I was referring to. I think you gave a more articulate and concise description than I did.

Whether you are going for the harder 'atemi version' or the softer 'kokyu version', I think the trick is not to worry about the elbow so much. If you move correctly, the elbow will take care of itself.

Ken McGrew
09-02-2011, 07:20 PM
B: How many techniques are there in Aikido?

O Sensei: There are about 3,000 basic techniques, and each one of them has 16 variations . . . so there are many thousands. Depending on the situation, you create new ones.

1957 interview

Ken McGrew
09-02-2011, 07:59 PM
"Ultimately, you must forget about technique. The further you progress, the fewer teachings there are. The Great Path is really No Path."

Ken McGrew
09-02-2011, 08:08 PM
"The techniques of Aikido change constantly; every encounter is unique, and the appropriate response should emerge naturally. Today's techniques will be different tomorrow. Do not get caught up with the form and appearance of a challenge. Aikido has no form - it is the study of the spirit."

kewms
09-03-2011, 11:41 PM
Any technique can be stopped if uke knows what is coming and nage isn't allowed to hit him. I would suggest that resisting in a position where your elbow can be broken is bad ukemi, and that insisting on continuing with a particular technique when the situation has changed is simplistic aikido.

Katherine

Carsten Möllering
09-06-2011, 02:17 AM
Any technique can be stopped if uke knows what is coming and nage isn't allowed to hit him.
I don't think that this is true. Maybe it doesn't make sense in a martial way to persue a technique which is blocked by uke.

But I think technically it is possible and is a very good method to learn the essence of a technique, to understand how it works.
And it teaches how ones own body, center, movement, posture has to be used and to be adapted.

For example: In the case of ude kime nage, uke can block a forward movement. If you don't try to throw uke to the front, but lead the contact you have to his blockin elbow straight down, vertically, in most cases uke will collapse.
Another way is moving him by rotating ones arm under his blocking elbow.
Or twisting his wrist a little bit mor like in shiho nage.
...
There are so many many ways to adapt ones technique to ukes behavior. So I myself think, it is much to be learned through those blocking manouvers of uke.

@ Ken:
What do you want to say citing Ueshiba?

Tim Ruijs
09-06-2011, 06:55 AM
Maybe it doesn't make sense in a martial way to persue a technique which is blocked by uke One would start to use force to go somewhere aite does not want to go (any longer).


There are so many many ways to adapt ones technique to ukes behavior. So I myself think, it is much to be learned through those blocking manouvers of uke.This is only different practise/intend. To understand why you cannot (yet) do the technique you initially intended is equally important. Aite should not be able to block. This indicates somewhere along the line aite regained balance.

graham christian
09-06-2011, 05:17 PM
This is only different practise/intend. To understand why you cannot (yet) do the technique you initially intended is equally important. Aite should not be able to block. This indicates somewhere along the line aite regained balance[QUOTE]

I like it. Respect.

Regards.G.