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Hanna B
05-09-2011, 02:36 AM
What is the point of aikido osae, the way it is performed?

Why is basic aikido osae done sitting? Surely, there must be other ways to control you partner from standing. Ways that does not restrict your movement, should more attackers emerge. Ways that do not need both your arms, so you can pick up your cell phone and call 112 (911 for US people, no?)

The point of aikido osae waza must be something else. What is built in your body, what does the body learn from performing osae?

sorokod
05-09-2011, 02:44 AM
I think that pins teach you to exercise control and blending untill the very end of the interaction.

Carsten Möllering
05-09-2011, 03:23 AM
Surely, there must be other ways to control you partner from standing.Yes, There are several ways to apply osae waza standing or even "half-kneeling". Ways which also use toris hands or at least one hand. Or ways of doing osae waza using toris legs.

The way we teach osae waze there often is a part of technique where hands are changing or shifting when sitting down. (sankyo, nikyo e.g.) During this part the legs support waza. This support can be elaboratet as a part of technique of it's own. This is the way we come to learn to apply oase waza with the legs, letting the hands completely free.

When practicing buki waza (i.e. tanto dori, jo dori, tachi dori) we apply osae waza standing. One hand holds the weapon of uke (and maybe can use it ...), the other one applies the lock.

The point of aikido osae waza must be something else. What is built in your body, what does the body learn from performing osae?Doing osae waza sitting seems to teach centeredness a lot. And a clear connection to uke. No tolerances, no possiblity to adjust by moving ...

Things like that. I think ...

Tsunemori
09-27-2011, 01:28 PM
The real name is KATAME WAZA which mean control.
KANSETSU or OSAE WAZA is aplaying joint lock position.

robin_jet_alt
09-27-2011, 07:44 PM
The real name is KATAME WAZA which mean control.
KANSETSU or OSAE WAZA is aplaying joint lock position.

Well, if you want to get pedantic, Osae-waza means a restraining or controlling technique, Kansetsu-waza means a joint lock, and Katame-waza means a ground technique or a grappling technique.

In answer to your question, I don't think O-sensei was worried about his mobile phone when he was developing aikido. Otherwise, I agree with Carsten.

Keith Larman
09-27-2011, 08:20 PM
In answer to your question, I don't think O-sensei was worried about his mobile phone when he was developing aikido. Otherwise, I agree with Carsten.

Keep in mind that locks in some Japanese arts are just temporary. Lock 'em up long enough to pull out your tanto or wakizashi and... well, you get the idea...

Ketsan
09-27-2011, 09:29 PM
What is the point of aikido osae, the way it is performed?

Why is basic aikido osae done sitting? Surely, there must be other ways to control you partner from standing. Ways that does not restrict your movement, should more attackers emerge. Ways that do not need both your arms, so you can pick up your cell phone and call 112 (911 for US people, no?)

The point of aikido osae waza must be something else. What is built in your body, what does the body learn from performing osae?

They're not pins; they're dislocations.

Tim Ruijs
09-28-2011, 01:54 AM
Interesting views.
I have always thought it is a means to control the entire body using only and extremity of that body. Control a wrist properly and aite is immobilized. You develop a 'feel' for it which you will use in all waza.
BTW Some of the pins originate from sword (now there is a surprise) and make much more sense.

Alex Megann
09-28-2011, 03:45 AM
What is the point of aikido osae, the way it is performed?

Why is basic aikido osae done sitting? Surely, there must be other ways to control you partner from standing. Ways that does not restrict your movement, should more attackers emerge. Ways that do not need both your arms, so you can pick up your cell phone and call 112 (911 for US people, no?)

The point of aikido osae waza must be something else. What is built in your body, what does the body learn from performing osae?

I watched a class with the late Kiyoyuki Terada Sensei a few years ago, and it was intriguing to watch this old man walk slowly into the dojo with a pair of sticks, but then turn into a lethal weapon almost as soon as he came onto the tatami. His knee finctioning was almost non-existent (he was the only Japanese teacher I have ever seen do the class rei standing). He did all the immobilisations either standing up or with a strange manoeuvre involving a controlled fall onto his partner.

In case you haven't come across Terada Sensei, here (http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAFgmod4RS4) is a nice clip of him (with healthy knees!) in relaxed mood.

Katame waza are not normally expected in multiple attacks in Aikikai yudansha gradings, and I agree they are not appropriate in real-world situations where there is any chance of a second attacker. My understanding is that - like many aikido techniques - there is a range of applications depending on the situation. In the case of the proverbial drunken uncle touching up your daughter, they could simply be a way to control the situation without inflaming things - one point that has occurred to me is that when you go to the ground with your partner, you have more control over their own descent and you can try to avoid them injuring themselves. On the other hand, as Alex says, in some circumstances they could be dislocations, or in a true life-or-death encounter, Keith's points out that you are then able to use a weapon on your attacker when they are at least temporarily immobilised.

Alex

Hanna B
09-28-2011, 05:25 AM
Keep in mind that locks in some Japanese arts are just temporary. Lock 'em up long enough to pull out your tanto or wakizashi and... well, you get the idea...

Yeah. And for that you'd need at least one of your hands. Which is why I find basic aikido osae impractical.

One of my aikido teachers taught nikkyo osae and sankyo osae as stretching - never pressing down on uke's shoulder but just twisting uke's are over his/her head, with the feeling of lifting rather than pressing. Very pleasant for uke, and he stressed that.

They're not pins; they're dislocations.

If you want to perform dislocation in nikkyo osae and sankyo osae. How do you do it?

Tim Ruijs
09-28-2011, 06:56 AM
When you take nikkyo all the way down to the floor and sit you can dislocate the shoulder by pushing aite's arm diagonally across the body (between the shoulder and head). Push as far as you can while maintaining good posture and then trun more to the head.
very technical, but hopefully you understand ;)

Mark Freeman
09-28-2011, 07:45 AM
One of my aikido teachers taught nikkyo osae and sankyo osae as stretching - never pressing down on uke's shoulder but just twisting uke's are over his/her head, with the feeling of lifting rather than pressing. Very pleasant for uke, and he stressed that.

Hi Hanna,

this is how I have been taught to perform the ending of these techniques. They are very good way of providing a theraputic stretch to the shoulder joint, as long as it is done in a controlled fashion. Uke signals the point of stretch end by tapping out.

I can't imagine practicing any other way, at this point of the stretch, uke is already immobilised, so the 'martial' part of the exercise is complete. Why go any further? Any thought of going further to cause damage, is not aikido in my mind.

If you want to perform dislocation in nikkyo osae and sankyo osae. How do you do it?

Don't stop when they tap out, just keep right on going:(

regards,

Mark

Ketsan
09-28-2011, 08:58 PM
Yeah. And for that you'd need at least one of your hands. Which is why I find basic aikido osae impractical.

One of my aikido teachers taught nikkyo osae and sankyo osae as stretching - never pressing down on uke's shoulder but just twisting uke's are over his/her head, with the feeling of lifting rather than pressing. Very pleasant for uke, and he stressed that.

If you want to perform dislocation in nikkyo osae and sankyo osae. How do you do it?

Imagine uke's arm throughout yonkyo, do that.

Michael Varin
10-01-2011, 04:30 AM
Yeah. And for that you'd need at least one of your hands. Which is why I find basic aikido osae impractical.

Of the seated pins, nikyo, sankyo, and kote gaeshi use one hand to grip the hand/wrist of uke or the gi to trap the arm. The other hand is a te gatana (hand sword). . . Why do you think this is? What could it possibly represent?

In ikkyo, it is easy to release the wrist while maintaining control of the elbow. In fact, I have seen video of Morihei doing this very thing with rather conspicuous hand motions to the back of uke's neck. Unfortunately, I was unable to find it on YouTube, but it is on one of the O Sensei videos that Stan Pranin offers.

One of my aikido teachers taught nikkyo osae and sankyo osae as stretching - never pressing down on uke's shoulder but just twisting uke's are over his/her head, with the feeling of lifting rather than pressing. Very pleasant for uke, and he stressed that.

While, people may have their reasons, I feel it is a big mistake to train the seated pins with a lifting motion. The shoulder should be planted firmly into the ground leaving uke no space to turn towards your body.

Hanna B
10-01-2011, 10:39 AM
Of the seated pins, nikyo, sankyo, and kote gaeshi use one hand to grip the hand/wrist of uke or the gi to trap the arm. The other hand is a te gatana (hand sword). . . Why do you think this is? What could it possibly represent?

Personally I have no clue, but obviously you have the opinion that it should "represent" something. You can't possibly refer to the sword, that seems incredible impractical for a myriad reasons. If it's in the saya, possibly. But Daito Ryu was a mainly unarmed art so I doubt that.

In ikkyo, it is easy to release the wrist while maintaining control of the elbow. In fact, I have seen video of Morihei doing this very thing with rather conspicuous hand motions to the back of uke's neck. Unfortunately, I was unable to find it on YouTube, but it is on one of the O Sensei videos that Stan Pranin offers.

Not sure what you are referring to here but in many Japanese jujutsu, it is common to end a technique with a blow. Tegatana is often preferred, it seems. I think I've seen it in Daito Ryu demonstrations too but I'm not entirely sure.

While, people may have their reasons, I feel it is a big mistake to train the seated pins with a lifting motion. The shoulder should be planted firmly into the ground leaving uke no space to turn towards your body.

Why do you think that? It should, you say. Why?

Personally, I feel that if you want pins that are good for actually holding people down safely with minimal effort you learn them elsewhere than in aikido. I have done seated nikkyo osae and sankyo osae with both downward and upward motion, and I like the upward version very much since they create a training where you kind of give to uke, all the way. It all depends on what you want your training to be. To me, aikido is more of an art form that a martial such. I do other martial arts for that purpose. But that's me...

chillzATL
10-03-2011, 07:53 AM
The point of the pins is really based on what you see as the point to the art as a whole. IMO the pins are just an extension of the same things you work on in every other aspect of the art. Basically, it's just a different situation to apply those same things.

Without laboring over the details, relax, take the slack out of your body, take the slack out of their body, connect to them and control them. Being seated makes some things easier and some things harder.

Phil Van Treese
10-03-2011, 09:22 AM
In Tomiki Aikido we have Osae Waza. Osae (komi) waza is mat work--pins like Kesa Gatame, Kami Shiho Gatame, Kezure Kami Shiho, Makura kesa Gatame etc. Arm locks come under Kansetsu Waza, chokes come under Shime Waza. Personally, I don't hold people down with any Aikido Osae waza. I'm not saying it can't be done but I don't feel I'd like to struggle with someone. It looks good but I don't need to look good. I prefer to use shime waza--chokes--and kansetsu waza--armbars--because they are fast, easy and effective and there are many ways to choke someone and armbar someone form any position.
Judo classes have great Ne waza (ground work) if you are interested in learning great matwork, chokes and armbars.

jonreading
10-03-2011, 11:40 AM
First off, while uncomfortable I think the aikido osae waza is to establish and exert control over the partner, ceasing the engagement on a point of [obvious] termination. Many of the aikido pins are simply more comfortable versions of Daito Ryu pins, while still maintaining control of your partner. I think many pins are performed from relaxed positions (such as sitting) to maximize a focus on connecting and controlling your partner, not necessary hurting a joint or nerve. Personally, I think osae waza is very difficult in aikido because we need to first understand what can happen to our bodies before we decide to contest our position. I think many aikido people do not understand that martial context.

When I first began escaping aikido pins I felt the pins lacked something. What I found was I lacked the martial education to realize my "escaping" movements actually would have damaged my body if my partner more severely employed the pins. I think the aikido pins allow us to accept the damage nage could cause and understand our role in the exchange, rather than fight a singular movement.

The osae waza is one of the areas I believe O'Sensei (and probably Doshu) softened in the curriculum to make the art safer to practice. I see those DRA guys do pins and I wince right along with uke. But, if you look at the aikido pins, you can see where a few tweaks would put them right back in the "uncomfortable" range. By uncomfortable, I mean screaming and tapping with anything that can contact the ground then quietly weeping when nage releases the pin.

Second, I think there is a big difference between good aikido pins and bad aikido pins. The assumption in our training is that nage can and does demonstrate control in the pin. Every once in a while we need to make sure that assumption is correct. Hence the occasional screaming and sobbing. And yes, good aikido pins can work.

graham christian
10-03-2011, 03:18 PM
My view isn't much different from Jons'
Control techniques when done properly teach you why they are so called. This may take as long as it takes before a student sees this.

The same with pins. In fact I find the english word pin perfect for when the uke feels inexplicably pinned and unable to move let alone escape then you know the truth of pin.

Regards.G.

Abasan
10-04-2011, 10:04 AM
Pin up or pin down, now that's the question...

Tim Ruijs
10-04-2011, 11:17 AM
Pin up....:eek:

Demetrio Cereijo
10-04-2011, 11:36 AM
When I first began escaping aikido pins I felt the pins lacked something. What I found was I lacked the martial education to realize my "escaping" movements actually would have damaged my body if my partner more severely employed the pins.

Hi Jon,

When you say martial education what do you mean? Military/LEO combatives? Grappling sports like Judo/BJJ/Wrestling?

Tim Ruijs
10-04-2011, 12:51 PM
Jon,

How do you mean if my partner more severly employed the pin?

Escaping the pin happens right before the pin is actually executed, so how could your partner make the pin more severe?

graham christian
10-04-2011, 01:33 PM
Jon,

How do you mean if my partner more severly employed the pin?

Escaping the pin happens right before the pin is actually executed, so how could your partner make the pin more severe?

Hi Tim.
I took it to mean after being pinned. For instance, when first practising pins it was then the duty of the uke to try and escape from the pin, in other words to test how effective your pin was.

Thus there is much to be learned even on that one thing. I might for example find a way of escaping after being pinned and have all the class befuddled and then along would come the teacher and pin me and I couldn't even move let alone try to escape.

Thus it shows there is even degrees in ability to be learned even in such a thing as a pin.

You probably know this but I think that's what Jon was on about. Anyway that's my take on it.

Regards.G.

jonreading
10-04-2011, 07:59 PM
Demetrio-

Primarily, this context the martial education to which I am referring is either the knowledge of the henko waza that would counter my escape movement if the pin was improperly employed or the proper response to comply under the correct application of the pin. Think of a typical judo setup for a 2 or 3-technique series... I may counter the first move but likely that would simply create a better scenario in which to employ the second or third technique. Of a second reference, the context to which I am referring is the individual knowledge of what is the proper move I should make to escape a pin. So in answer to your question, yes, part of the martial education would be the personal knowledge of how to properly escape a pin.

In short, I usually address three responses to a pin: escape before the pin is applied (kaishi waza), resistance to an improper pin and compliance to a proper pin. I think many aikido FUBAR our responses because we cannot discern the proper scenario in which we find ourselves. We resist correct pins, comply with incorrect pins, and often don't know when the proper timing is to escape a pin.

Tim-

I think many aikido people do not employ aikido pins severely in training. I am not talking force, I am talking about applying the pin at the right time and using the proper mechanics in a mental state that dictates the need for the pin to work. One time, one technique. That is to say that we often leave openings in our pinning techniques that may be exposed. Sometimes we train with sympathy for our partner that causes us to apply the pin a little less severe than is proper. Maybe my partner is sore, or hurt. Maybe I don't want reciprocal treatment. Maybe I don't know the person. Trouble is, that lapse leaves an opening that my partner may choose to use against me (in this context, escape or resist a pin). Graham touched on the second part, maintaining the effect of the pin after its application.

Now, for both responses I will clarify that I do not necessarily think it is bad to omit the severe application of kansetsu waza or osae waza. Nobody likes to have a successful nikyo applied countless times during class... enough times to understand if nage is successfully applying the technique is fine, but then concede that point and move on. However, I believe it can be hard to differentiate when a pin is correctly applied when uke does not posses the knowledge to make that assessment.

As a tangental point that I make about the severity in which we train and apply pins, consider the response as uke. Why would you resist a pin if you knew that pin could cause you physical harm? Consider that it only takes one technique, one time, to destroy your shoulder or your wrist.

Aikido is subtle. Sometimes too subtle. Osae waza is supposed to be a period at the end of a sentence, but on the mat its often one of the most contentious points of a technique. We fight it because we assume nage will not hurt us. Nage will let go, or ease up, or concede the contention...

I hope that helps clarify my post.

kewms
10-05-2011, 12:14 AM
As a tangental point that I make about the severity in which we train and apply pins, consider the response as uke. Why would you resist a pin if you knew that pin could cause you physical harm? Consider that it only takes one technique, one time, to destroy your shoulder or your wrist.

Indeed. Nage has a responsibility to not damage their partner, but I think uke also has a responsibility to not be stupid.

While it's probably true that a wrist-focused pain-compliance nikkyo wouldn't stop a determined attacker, it's also true that I only have two wrists. Keeping them both intact is more important to me than proving that my partner's technique is incorrect.

Katherine

Tim Ruijs
10-05-2011, 03:39 AM
I think it is important to note that an attacker probably does not recognise the pin until the moment it controls him. Such an attacker may then automatically try and resist, simply because he does not exactly know what is happening and perhaps cause damage to himself.
So you would require much less intend than you would in practise where the attacker is fully aware of what is about to happen and thus anticipates.

However that said, in practise I always say we practise for the opponent that is a tad bit better than we are, so we have to work hard to get things right.

phitruong
10-05-2011, 07:28 AM
However that said, in practise I always say we practise for the opponent that is a tad bit better than we are, so we have to work hard to get things right.

i believed this is where koryu model worked better. if my understanding is correct, in koryu, uke usually was the teacher or senior person, which meant uke was better. and as the senior person, uke knew when, where and how to resist or comply to the pin to teach nage the right way and the wrong way; yet as the same time can protect himself/herself from overly excited nage. however, aikido model, at the moment, isn't the case. i kinda like the systema approach; they just hit you wherever you try to resist. that's another thing. aikido folks don't like to hit folks when they are down. rolling around with the systema folks and they will dispel that notion in a hurry. quite enlightening experience.

Tim Ruijs
10-05-2011, 08:41 AM
i believed this is where koryu model worked better. if my understanding is correct, in koryu, uke usually was the teacher or senior person, which meant uke was better. and as the senior person, uke knew when, where and how to resist or comply to the pin to teach nage the right way and the wrong way; yet as the same time can protect himself/herself from overly excited nage. however, aikido model, at the moment, isn't the case. i kinda like the systema approach; they just hit you wherever you try to resist. that's another thing. aikido folks don't like to hit folks when they are down. rolling around with the systema folks and they will dispel that notion in a hurry. quite enlightening experience.

IMHO, That kinda depends on the lineage you are in and how you practise. I agree that most often you will find highly stylized techniques and a set of rules on what you can or cannot do. (Lot of this has been discussed in the power threads).

Dan said it would be wise for teacher to take ukemi all the time. This works two fold, on one side you will feel what your student is trying to do, on the other hand you learn much more about your own control as uke (like you also mentioned). I have started doing just that to find out what happens... it has been interesting so far!

Before this derails too far I will stop here...sorry

Rupert Atkinson
10-05-2011, 10:08 PM
In Jujutsu you just rip the arm off; in fact, it could be half ripped off by the time he gets to the ground. In Aikido, you take them down and hold them in a controlled way from beginning to end - an altogether much harder task. At the end, you just sit there holding them. If your hold is good, and uke then tries to escape, then he will hurt or injure himself. To me, that's how it is.