Aikido and Music

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[abraxis]

Forgive this naive question, but does anybody teach Aikido while music is playing in the dojo? That is audible music everyone practicing can hear.
If the answer is "no-never", Why Not?

Thanks in advance for your consideration of what is obviously a naive beginner's question.

[guest1234567]

Hi Rudy,
In our dojo not, because there is always music coming from below the aerobic class, we must close the door, otherwise we would hardly hear our teacher.

[abraxis]

Hi Rudy,
In our dojo not, because there is always music coming from below the aerobic class, we must close the door, otherwise we would hardly hear our teacher.

Hi Carina,

I think other people's music (OPM) coming from outside the dojo where you are practicing is not uncommon. As far as hearing the Sensei goes, the music from inside the dojo could be turned down while s/he is speaking and demonstrating. For instructional demonstrations without spoken descriptions I don't think it would matter much.

Best,

Rudy

[guest1234567]

Of course, it depends of the dojo, I don't think that the owner would put any material for this, he teaches taekwondo(to adults and children) on other days and other hours, my teacher only has the tatami 2 days 90 minutes in the week

[abraxis]

Of course, it depends of the dojo, I don't think that the owner would put any material for this, he teaches taekwondo(to adults and children) on other days and other hours, my teacher only has the tatami 2 days 90 minutes in the week

It would be simple enough for a teacher to bring a portable boombox or Ipod with portable speakers.

[guest1234567]

Yes, you are right, I'll ask my teacher what he thinks about music:)

[graham christian]

For me no. I have been asked a few times by students if it wouldn't be a good idea to do so, especially when they start experiencing the flow and rhythm of a motion or technique.

My reply is no when they ask and I explain it will make them lazy. The responsibility is for them to create the motion and rhythm not to follow an external one.

Now THERE'S a difference between Aikido and dancing.

Regards.G.

[abraxis]

....The responsibility is for them to create the motion and rhythm not to follow an external one.
Now THERE'S a difference between Aikido and dancing.
Regards.G.

Yes, I agree, "THERE'S a difference between Aikido and dancing", Kanai Shihan said the same. I still think of it as a Performance Art--with music or without.

Best,

RT

[Janet Rosen]

Forgive this naive question, but does anybody teach Aikido while music is playing in the dojo? That is audible music everyone practicing can hear.
If the answer is "no-never", Why Not?

Thanks in advance for your consideration of what is obviously a naive beginner's question.

To me the more apt question is, why would I?

Aikido to me is about being in the moment responding to my partner. Why would I want to time my aikido to anything other than his attack, my internal environment (breathing, my own natural pace) and awareness of other potential attackers - why impose an arbitrary external stimulus?

[Janet Rosen]

Addendum:
In the case of traffic noise, music bleed from neighbors, etc, isn't the idea to learn to be aware of yet also filter out what is extraneous to the training in order to have focus where it needs to be?
So again the question that rises for me is, why would I purposely add an external beat/music to the training?

The only answer that comes to mind is "to dance to" so I guess my question back is : what value do you perceive in having two people surrender their own natural body rhythms to an external one? Why dance?

Not trying to be obtuse. I listen to music when I paint or sew but the goal of my aikido training is different and I honestly don't understand.

[Mark Freeman]

Hi all,
I remember asking a very similar question when I was quite new to AW - some interesting replies -

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9785&highlight=aikido+music

I don't use music in the dojo, but still am of the mind that the soundtrack that fits aikido the most, from a structural point of view is improvised Jazz.

regards,

Mark

[graham christian]

Hi all,
I remember asking a very similar question when I was quite new to AW - some interesting replies -

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9785&highlight=aikido+music

I don't use music in the dojo, but still am of the mind that the soundtrack that fits aikido the most, from a structural point of view is improvised Jazz.

regards,

Mark

Nahhhh. Surely it's reggae.

[abraxis]

Hi all,
I remember asking a very similar question when I was quite new to AW - some interesting replies -
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9785&highlight=aikido+music
I don't use music in the dojo, but still am of the mind that the soundtrack that fits aikido the most, from a structural point of view is improvised Jazz.
regards,
Mark

Mark,
Thank you for your thoughtful reply and the url for the thread which previously addressed this topic. What made me ask this was the other day I got to my new dojo quite a bit earlier than the rest of the class and Sensei was listening to Ray Charles. I thought to myself that this is certainly going to be different. However, it wasn't to be, after a few more minutes passed the music was shut off and I was in a dojo like so many others -- without music. Is it the martial and spiritual traditions which Aikido derives from that have prevented music from being part of its practice? Is it that music is considered a distraction in a dojo which is both a school and a temple to many Senseis? I don't know. I do know that the absence of music is remarkable.
Best regards,
Rudy

P.S. Mies Davis would be great but Ray Charles would be nice too.

Janet & Graham,

I am only a beginner and I feel this is turning into randori. I think I need to put on some music to stimulate the part of my brain where my Aikido is stored--might be right next to the Roots Rock gyrus.:D
Best,

[graham christian]

Mark,
Thank you for your thoughtful reply and the url for the thread which previously addressed this topic. What made me ask this was the other day I got to my new dojo quite a bit earlier than the rest of the class and Sensei was listening to Ray Charles. I thought to myself that this is certainly going to be different. However, it wasn't to be, after a few more minutes passed the music was shut off and I was in a dojo like so many others -- without music. Is it the martial and spiritual traditions which Aikido derives from that have prevented music from being part of its practice? Is it that music is considered a distraction in a dojo which is both a school and a temple to many Senseis? I don't know. I do know that the absence of music is remarkable.
Best regards,
Rudy

P.S. Mies Davis would be great but Ray Charles would be nice too.

Janet & Graham,

I am only a beginner and I feel this is turning into randori. I think I need to put on some music to stimulate the part of my brain where my Aikido is stored--might be right next to the Roots Rock gyrus.:D
Best,

Rudy. Not sure what you mean there and if you think my mention of reggae was a dig. No, it was merely a response to Mark tongue in cheek. I liked the question, that's why I answered.

All the best.G.

[abraxis]

Rudy. Not sure what you mean there and if you think my mention of reggae was a dig. No, it was merely a response to Mark tongue in cheek. I liked the question, that's why I answered. All the best.G.

Graham,
Fact is, I took your remark as most likely tongue in cheek as wel as a likely musical preference. And I was mostly joking when I referred to a Roots Rock gyrus--but not entirely:D :D .
Regards,
RT

[Janet Rosen]

I do know that the absence of music is remarkable.

Rudy, asking in true curiosity: why?

[Mark Freeman]

Nahhhh. Surely it's reggae.

Graham, I do love a bit of good reggae but sometimes the strict accent on the upbeat is not flexible enough for aiki purposes;)

[abraxis]

Rudy, asking in true curiosity: why?

Janet,

In all honesty, I see people listening to music everywhere I go. It's on their laptops, ipods, hi-fi systems, it's in elevators, in their cars, in the stores where they shop, they hear music of one kind or another while on their exercise equipment, while jogging, doing chores, when they goto church etc. I come into a dojo where Ray Charles is being played but soon, and well before another student shows up, the music is turned off. It is a white environment and it is silent--like a math lab. To my mind, the absence of music in dojos is remarkable that's all. I guess I might have asked, Why is this space, the dojo, so different from most other spaces--acoustically that is?

Best,

RT

[Janet Rosen]

Nahhhh. Surely it's reggae.

Oh, thanks, Graham, now I''m setting Tohei's four principles to "Pressure Drop" ("center drop...") and nothing will get it out of my head until I go put on some Toots....:D

[graham christian]

Graham, I do love a bit of good reggae but sometimes the strict accent on the upbeat is not flexible enough for aiki purposes;)

Ahhh, Mark.
Like the fella said in the movie 'white men can't jump' ---

'Your hearing the music but your not listening.' Or was it the other way around?

No, but seriously, let me introduce you to a little something about reggae. I remember my old teacher who prided himself with his piano playing. One day composed a piece of music via his musical software on his computer and played it to me joking he was now a master of reggae.

I listened and then laughed to his surprise and said 'we call that english reggae' (by the way it was nothing like ub40) He had emphasized that so called up beat.

I proceded to tell him to listen more from the base line. That is the key. The base covers the first three beats and the fourth is silent so it's; 123_,123_,123_, 123_. Woahhhhh, I feel koshi, all I need now is some harmonies from hara!

Maybe we could put an accent in that space and it would be like a sword?

Mmmm. Think I'll leave the musical translation of Aikido to my son on second thoughts.

Regards.G.

[graham christian]

Oh, thanks, Graham, now I''m setting Tohei's four principles to "Pressure Drop" ("center drop...") and nothing will get it out of my head until I go put on some Toots....:D

Sorry about that Janet. Yeah, toots may do the trick or may I suggest a nice calming Natural Mystic, that's good for clearing the head.

On this vibe I'd better not say regards so I'll say RESPECT.G.

[Mark Freeman]

Ahhh, Mark.
Like the fella said in the movie 'white men can't jump' ---

'Your hearing the music but your not listening.' Or was it the other way around?

No, but seriously, let me introduce you to a little something about reggae. I remember my old teacher who prided himself with his piano playing. One day composed a piece of music via his musical software on his computer and played it to me joking he was now a master of reggae.

I listened and then laughed to his surprise and said 'we call that english reggae' (by the way it was nothing like ub40) He had emphasized that so called up beat.

I proceded to tell him to listen more from the base line. That is the key. The base covers the first three beats and the fourth is silent so it's; 123_,123_,123_, 123_. Woahhhhh, I feel koshi, all I need now is some harmonies from hara!

Maybe we could put an accent in that space and it would be like a sword?

Mmmm. Think I'll leave the musical translation of Aikido to my son on second thoughts.

Regards.G.

Oh I agree that the bass line is what drives it all along, and the space between the notes is where the magic of the music resides. And reggae is directly connected to the hips, no doubt, it certainly gets to mine.:)

I still think that jazz has the edge in the aikido analogies stakes. There is soft, slow, flowing and melodic, there is fast, rhythmic, and full on ('hard bop', which sounds like an MA style in itself), then there is free form improvisation, where the music can find it's own path. Of course there is some pretty bland stuff out there, and some which is not to everyone's taste.

One of my own favourite clips on youtube is this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTg5V2oA_hY

I can't help but watch this and admire the partner work, the superb following, the fearless movement, the focus, the energy, the connection, the timing, the physicality and the shear joy of doing. There's a nice bit of movement from the hips (especially at 0:55;)) and for those that like a well executed throw, then 1:46 should delight. Most aikidoka would love to be able to operate at their level, wouldn't we?

regards

Mark

[graham christian]

Oh I agree that the bass line is what drives it all along, and the space between the notes is where the magic of the music resides. And reggae is directly connected to the hips, no doubt, it certainly gets to mine.:)

I still think that jazz has the edge in the aikido analogies stakes. There is soft, slow, flowing and melodic, there is fast, rhythmic, and full on ('hard bop', which sounds like an MA style in itself), then there is free form improvisation, where the music can find it's own path. Of course there is some pretty bland stuff out there, and some which is not to everyone's taste.

One of my own favourite clips on youtube is this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTg5V2oA_hY

I can't help but watch this and admire the partner work, the superb following, the fearless movement, the focus, the energy, the connection, the timing, the physicality and the shear joy of doing. There's a nice bit of movement from the hips (especially at 0:55;)) and for those that like a well executed throw, then 1:46 should delight. Most aikidoka would love to be able to operate at their level, wouldn't we?

regards

Mark

Hey, now that there is MOVEMENT. Excellent. Koshinage's, taisabakis, tenkans, even roundhouse kicks. Oh dear, I'm just a beginner!

Regards.G.

[abraxis]

....One of my own favourite clips on youtube is this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTg5V2oA_hY....
Most aikidoka would love to be able to operate at their level, wouldn't we?regards Mark

Mark,
Many thanks for posting the clip. I know I'd love to operate on that level. Also, and I don't wish to appear disrespectful of wisdom or tradition but, What would O'Sensei have to say about this?
Regards,
RT

[Mark Freeman]

Mark,
Many thanks for posting the clip. I know I'd love to operate on that level. Also, and I don't wish to appear disrespectful of wisdom or tradition but, What would O'Sensei have to say about this?
Regards,
RT

Hi Rudy,

I have no idea what he would have to say about this, the film was made in 1941, so he may have even seen it.
He did say that aikido should be practiced in a joyfull manner, and he would see the people who were in the clip certainly doing just that.
My guess is that he would be as impressed with their skills and abilities as we are:)

regards,

Mark

[abraxis]

Hi Rudy,
I have no idea what he would have to say about this, the film was made in 1941, so he may have even seen it. He did say that aikido should be practiced in a joyfull manner, and he would see the people who were in the clip certainly doing just that. My guess is that he would be as impressed with their skills and abilities as we are:)
regards,
Mark

Yes! A joyful demonstration of highly developed skills and abilities--Isn't that what OSensei's Aikido was about? :)

[Janet Rosen]

Thank you, Rudy. You and I live in very different soundscapes. There is rarely music around my unless I put it on; local cafes are about the only public space it's part of the environment.
As applying to aikido:
Every dojo I've been a member of, and many I've visited, indeed have an emphasis on the dojo as Separate Space from the rest of ones daily world, starting with removal of shoes and bowing in, perhaps a period of breathing or meditation. Some have insisted on no talking others on no extraneous chitchat.

Janet,

In all honesty, I see people listening to music everywhere I go. It's on their laptops, ipods, hi-fi systems, it's in elevators, in their cars, in the stores where they shop, they hear music of one kind or another while on their exercise equipment, while jogging, doing chores, when they goto church etc. I come into a dojo where Ray Charles is being played but soon, and well before another student shows up, the music is turned off. It is a white environment and it is silent--like a math lab. To my mind, the absence of music in dojos is remarkable that's all. I guess I might have asked, Why is this space, the dojo, so different from most other spaces--acoustically that is?

Best,

RT

[abraxis]

Every dojo I've been a member of, and many I've visited, indeed have an emphasis on the dojo as Separate Space from the rest of ones daily world, starting with removal of shoes and bowing in, perhaps a period of breathing or meditation. Some have insisted on no talking others on no extraneous chitchat.

Janet that is an accurate description of my experience as well. It's indeed why I asked the original naive question. To date, reading this thread, it seems most people would explain that music would only interfere with aikido instruction and practice. I think Mark's thread from 2006 is worth reviewing http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9785&highlight=aikido+music as well. The most frequent explanation or answer, unfortunately, may remain -- "because we've always done it this way".

[Shadowfax]

We have music from outside the dojo very frequently as there is a tango class right down the hall form us on Sunday nights. I remember also when we had an aerobics class down the hall one night doing aikido to Michael Jackson's Beat it. But myself I would prefer to keep the music out there and not inside the dojo. The idea just has very little appeal to me.

Janet,

In all honesty, I see people listening to music everywhere I go. It's on their laptops, ipods, hi-fi systems, it's in elevators, in their cars, in the stores where they shop, they hear music of one kind or another while on their exercise equipment, while jogging, doing chores, when they goto church etc. I come into a dojo where Ray Charles is being played but soon, and well before another student shows up, the music is turned off. It is a white environment and it is silent--like a math lab. To my mind, the absence of music in dojos is remarkable that's all. I guess I might have asked, Why is this space, the dojo, so different from most other spaces--acoustically that is?

Best,

RT

You know I have thought about the fact that people seem to want to have music or some other electronic device occupying part of their mind constantly no matter what they are doing or where they are. There was a news piece on just the other night about how people seem to be continually distracted by their technological gadgets and less aware of what's around them. I wonder if part of the issue is that people have forgotten how to enjoy silence or the sounds of the natural world, or of this is because they cannot quiet their racing minds without something to distract it. Perhaps it is because when one is in an environment free of outside distractions such as music they come face to face with something that they don't want to really face up to... themselves. ;)

[abraxis]

....Perhaps it is because when one is in an environment free of outside distractions such as music they come face to face with something that they don't want to really face up to... themselves. ;)

That assumes, and I can understand why people would think this way, that extraneous sights and sounds are most likely to get in the way of the practice of Aikido and the seeking of enlightenment. Just for an exercise however, and despite the risks you mention, try a thought experiment. Start with the thought that there may be something external to nage and uke that could help improve their aikido and their seeking after enlightenment. I've read that OSensei believed sound vibrations can connect us with heaven. Is absolute silence the only way we will ever get a chance to hear the sounds of heaven? On the other hand, maybe the sacred music of the universe can be heard even with the radio on and the right music playing. Just a thought.

[lbb]

In all honesty, I see people listening to music everywhere I go. It's on their laptops, ipods, hi-fi systems, it's in elevators, in their cars, in the stores where they shop, they hear music of one kind or another while on their exercise equipment, while jogging, doing chores, when they goto church etc. I come into a dojo where Ray Charles is being played but soon, and well before another student shows up, the music is turned off. It is a white environment and it is silent--like a math lab. To my mind, the absence of music in dojos is remarkable that's all. I guess I might have asked, Why is this space, the dojo, so different from most other spaces--acoustically that is?

An interesting thing happened when I started to think about your question. As I pictured the situations in which people "listen" to music in daily life, the first one that came to mind was public transit: on the bus, on the subway, or waiting for same. Maybe it's because this is the situation where I'm most likely to have a pair of earbuds in myself. So the question is, what's the function of music in this situation? It could be a lot of things, but to be honest (especially for those of us who ride the Green Line), perhaps the most important is to drown out or escape from the present reality. This ride is terrible, we're packed like sardines, I'm tired, I don't want to be here. So you "listen" to something to take you away from all that. But "all that" includes the people around you, and while it may sometimes be beneficial (in a narrow sense) to ignore the people around you on the subway, when you're on the mat, the opposite is true.

My sensei often says, "You're trying to make two nervous systems work together." This is true in partner practice, and it would be true even in an adversarial situation, where you're being attacked. You can't just go on dancing to your own tune, oblivious to what's going on with the other person. And you definitely don't want some recorded third party telling you what the tune should be.

[Shadowfax]

That assumes, and I can understand why people would think this way, that extraneous sights and sounds are most likely to get in the way of the practice of Aikido and the seeking of enlightenment. Just for an exercise however, and despite the risks you mention, try a thought experiment.

What risks did I mention? I'm a bit lost there....

I maybe was unclear. I don't see Music as a distraction from aikido as I said we often hear it while we train. I just don't really see the need for some outside influence such as music to inform my aikido. Enlightenment is a whole other matter which aikido is a part of that journey but certainly not the only thing that is on the path.

is absolute silence the only way we will ever get a chance to hear the sounds of heaven? On the other hand, maybe the sacred music of the universe can be heard even with the radio on and the right music playing. Just a thought.

And you can see the stars when you stand on a city street when you look up at night. But you sure can see them in a lot more detail out in the mountains away from all of those street lights. ;)



My sensei often says, "You're trying to make two nervous systems work together." This is true in partner practice, and it would be true even in an adversarial situation, where you're being attacked. You can't just go on dancing to your own tune, oblivious to what's going on with the other person. And you definitely don't want some recorded third party telling you what the tune should be.

Yes exactly. :)

Personally... I think on the subway I would not want to be distracted and remove myself from being aware of all of those people around me. Many times it has been proven that such things do indeed distract people and reduce awareness. I would far rather maintain my awareness of what is going on around me and escape a potential danger than to escape a minor discomfort by distracting myself from the reality of what and who is around me.

[GMaroda]

I train at the same place as Cherie, so what she said about the music from outside applies to me too. That said, I used to train in pentjak silat. Music is traditional there, usually gamelan. Seeing as none of us liked gamelan (I'm ok with it, but it rarely strikes my fancy) we used other music.

Music or no music. It didn't really matter. Yes, you picked up a rhythm and tempo from music. The real trick was then changing yourself so it was different from the external stimuli. An interesting practice to be sure, but I wonder how necessary it really is. Aikido is sometimes called "dance like" but pentjak actually refers to that.

IOW, I don't know.

[sorokod]

Google for Aiki Jam

[lbb]

Personally... I think on the subway I would not want to be distracted and remove myself from being aware of all of those people around me. Many times it has been proven that such things do indeed distract people and reduce awareness. I would far rather maintain my awareness of what is going on around me and escape a potential danger than to escape a minor discomfort by distracting myself from the reality of what and who is around me.

While the subway is one of the stereotypical "urban danger" scenarios (to people who aren't used to urban public transit), it is in fact one of the less dangerous situations you can be in (except from having your foot stepped on, perhaps). In a situation where you have a person on every square foot of space, no one is going to attack you. In fact, it's almost the opposite: a crowded bus or subway car is a situation where you really need to pull your horns in and not be giving people any "are you a danger? are you threatening me?" vibe.

[Shadowfax]

While the subway is one of the stereotypical "urban danger" scenarios (to people who aren't used to urban public transit), it is in fact one of the less dangerous situations you can be in (except from having your foot stepped on, perhaps). In a situation where you have a person on every square foot of space, no one is going to attack you. In fact, it's almost the opposite: a crowded bus or subway car is a situation where you really need to pull your horns in and not be giving people any "are you a danger? are you threatening me?" vibe.

Being aware does not necessarily mean one needs to give off that vibe. It does not even really mean being on the lookout for a potential threat. It just means being alert to your surroundings and noticing the details. Quite honestly I maintain my awareness at all times and I am rarely in a crowded environment. More things can happen to an unaware person than just being mugged, although an unaware person is far more likely to be victimized than someone who is paying attention to their surroundings.

For instance many of my equestrian friends like to listen to music while they ride. Now I at times do enjoy having it playing in the background while I do arena work but I would never use earbuds. Becoming distracted and loosing awareness of my surroundings while riding could be a great set up for a wreck if something I do not see or hear scares the horse I am riding. Being aware while riding in the woods not only could save me from a potential danger but it also might mean that I am the one person on the trail that day who spots the newborn fawn laying in the tall grass....Sometimes awareness rewards one with opportunities and experiences we might otherwise miss.

[abraxis]

Google for Aiki Jam

Many thanks David. Nice choice of music. Looks like there's a lot of joy being shared in this practice:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTMLiJJ1bTc

A few of the many questions which come to mind upon viewing the video: How often do they practice with music on (the akidoka pictured in the video, that is), how do the aikidoka feel after they've practiced with music playing--i.e. what do they say about the quality of the practice? do beginners respond differently to music being played compared to dan level aikidoka? Is the sensei or dojocho in support of practice paired with music?

Best regards,

RT

[lbb]

Being aware does not necessarily mean one needs to give off that vibe. It does not even really mean being on the lookout for a potential threat. It just means being alert to your surroundings and noticing the details. Quite honestly I maintain my awareness at all times and I am rarely in a crowded environment.
(emphasis mine)

Yes, I'm sure that you are aware at all times. However, your awareness in a crowded subway would be a very different thing, when your nose is two inches from someone's back and you are surrounded on all sides by other people who are equally close to you, if not more so.

[abraxis]

Thanks to the AikiWeb System for this reference...

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4186

[abraxis]

A bit more googling around finds

http://www.guillaumeerard.com/en/aikido/videos/videos-by-guillaume.html

[abraxis]

and then there's this

http://www.aiki-extensions.org/pdfs/whl-aikimusic.pdf

[abraxis]

Many, many examples can be found of demonstrations with music added after the fact. Here's one made from numerous clips of Tissier Shihan...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3NmaYu2Kvc

[sorokod]

Many thanks David. Nice choice of music. Looks like there's a lot of joy being shared in this practice:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTMLiJJ1bTc

A few of the many questions which come to mind upon viewing the video: How often do they practice with music on (the akidoka pictured in the video, that is), how do the aikidoka feel after they've practiced with music playing--i.e. what do they say about the quality of the practice? do beginners respond differently to music being played compared to dan level aikidoka? Is the sensei or dojocho in support of practice paired with music?

Best regards,

RT

I believe it's a weekly thing. You can contact Miles Kessler Sensei (http://www.ai-ki-do.org/Dojocho/Spotlights/MKessler.html) with your other questions.

[abraxis]

I believe it's a weekly thing. You can contact Miles Kessler Sensei (http://www.ai-ki-do.org/Dojocho/Spotlights/MKessler.html) with your other questions.

David,

Kessler Sensei is at Integral Dojo in Tel Aviv. Their schedule is up on http://www.facebook.com/pages/Integral-Dojo/108195389221750?sk=app_4949752878. The schedule shows one 90 min. class each week as "Aikido Jam" (they also have two meditation sessions weekly as well). I'll submit my questions to the gneral mail for the dojo.

Best regards,

RT

[Krystal Locke]

Forgive this naive question, but does anybody teach Aikido while music is playing in the dojo? That is audible music everyone practicing can hear.
If the answer is "no-never", Why Not?

Thanks in advance for your consideration of what is obviously a naive beginner's question.

We generally do not listen to music in class. I will sometimes bring my Shuffle and listen while I am practicing by myself but I would not impose my music on anyone else.

Class is a collection of many people, all with different tastes and different, changing emotional conditions. Music carries emotional information, and can affect mood strongly and unpredictably.

I do not want to have to juggle musical tastes in an aikido setting, easy solution, have none. I cannot control others' emotional reactions to music, so it is easier to have none. Like Janet, I do not want my responses influenced by an irrelevant external source, better to have no music. Music is personal, I wont inflict my tastes on other people, that'd be rude.

And, when we've tried music in group training, some people got too jacked up and got injured. Or, class became a lovely little sitdown and chat on the mat session. Neither is much good for effective training.

[abraxis]

We generally do not listen to music in class. I will sometimes bring my Shuffle and listen while I am practicing by myself but I would not impose my music on anyone else.

Class is a collection of many people, all with different tastes and different, changing emotional conditions. Music carries emotional information, and can affect mood strongly and unpredictably.

I do not want to have to juggle musical tastes in an aikido setting, easy solution, have none. I cannot control others' emotional reactions to music, so it is easier to have none. Like Janet, I do not want my responses influenced by an irrelevant external source, better to have no music. Music is personal, I wont inflict my tastes on other people, that'd be rude.

And, when we've tried music in group training, some people got too jacked up and got injured. Or, class became a lovely little sitdown and chat on the mat session. Neither is much good for effective training.

Krystal,

The obstacles to the use of music in Aikido practice are certainly not trivial and I can understand why few aikidoka would try to change established traditions when there appears little to gain and much to lose in the attempt.

I believe your use of music in your preparation and solo practice is not uncommon. Your personal experience trying music in group training is, I think, valuable information as well and speaks to both your curiosity and willingness to explore the possible advantages to be gained from incorporating music into the group practice of Aikido. However, despite the obstacles stated, and despite the evidence pointed to that under the stated conditions it failed to yield positive results, I wouldn't give up on further exploration in this area.

I think you believe, as many others do: -- music has power and spirit all its own. That power can be disruptive socially as well as psychologically and has obvious potential to interfere with the spiritual nature of a group's Aikido practice and the sanctuary nature of the dojo.

My hope is that music might be productively combined with Aikido and that some dojos will continue to explore this relationship since there is great potential benefit-- both physical and spiritual -- in a connection of the two.

Best regards,

RT

[lbb]

I think you believe, as many others do: -- music has power and spirit all its own. That power can be disruptive socially as well as psychologically and has obvious potential to interfere with the spiritual nature of a group's Aikido practice and the sanctuary nature of the dojo.

My hope is that music might be productively combined with Aikido and that some dojos will continue to explore this relationship since there is great potential benefit-- both physical and spiritual -- in a connection of the two.

What's the potential spiritual benefit? For that matter, what's the potential physical benefit? And how can you avoid having this combination of music and aikido practice becoming at least in part about the music, thus taking away from the aikido practice?

[abraxis]

What's the potential spiritual benefit? For that matter, what's the potential physical benefit? And how can you avoid having this combination of music and aikido practice becoming at least in part about the music, thus taking away from the aikido practice?

Mary,
You raise perfectly legitimate concerns to be added under the heading: why not to try and use music in the practice of Aikido.I feel each of these questions is best answered empirically which could be quite a project and I'm not suggesting you take this on yourself. However, your analysis of any empirical results would be most welcome as a skeptical approach is an important and essential part of the objective test of any hypothesis.
Best,
RT

[lbb]

You raise perfectly legitimate concerns to be added under the heading: why not to try and use music in the practice of Aikido.I feel each of these questions is best answered empirically which could be quite a project and I'm not suggesting you take this on yourself. However, your analysis of any empirical results would be most welcome as a skeptical approach is an important and essential part of the objective test of any hypothesis.


Well, sure. But you're chasing something here. Surely you must have some idea of what it is you're chasing?

[mathewjgano]

Sorry if any of this is redundant, but I have a few thoughts, being an avid music-lover and terrible musician.
When i was a student I used to study while listening to music. At different times the music either helped or hindered. I noticed it had to do with how I engaged my mind. If I kept the music more in the back of my mind I was able to focus on learning new things pretty well, though I did also notice music with words tended to more easily confuse my train of thought when it also involved words.
There is a strong relationship with rythm and endurance, which is partly why it's so popular to run to music, but I think there are deeper relationships too. Oliver Sacks has some wonderful material on the nature of music and neurological issues...for example, some folks who are very nearly catatonic might respond to music. Music appears to often tap in to more primitive portions of the brain and I have often used music throughout my short life as a way of inducing desirable states of mind; to enter into "the zone." I've been able to induce similar states without music too though and I can see the benefit, if not the necessity, for being able to achieve these kinds of mental states without the need of listening to music. I think it is the rythm of breathing or heart-beat, for example, which serves a similar function.
One interesting thought that comes to mind, and I'm not sure where I read this or even if it's true, has to do with Terry Dobson playing Death Metal (once? occasionally? I don't know) during training. I'm somewhat desensitized now, but my intitial reaction to music like that was displeasure, and I can see some value to striving for harmony under emotionally trying circumstances such as that may cause...just as I can see how listening to a highly energetic jig (Patrick Street, anyone?) might also create an interesting dynamic, or something soft like the Moonlight Sonata would also cause a very mellow dynamic. So I see the potential value as being not only how to induce a certain feeling with certain music, but also how to overcome that feeling. For example, if a song lends itself to making you sleepy, but you strive for high levels of alertness, I can see how it might lend istelf to actually being sleepy and striving for the same effect.
Of course, a problem might be that different people respond different to a given song, but I would think that would also be something worth studying.
Take care,
Matt
(now I'm going to have to read the thread and see how applicable that was...perhaps should I add this habit of mine to the "bad habits thread."):o

[sakumeikan]

Hey, now that there is MOVEMENT. Excellent. Koshinage's, taisabakis, tenkans, even roundhouse kicks. Oh dear, I'm just a beginner!

Regards.G.
Dear Graham,
If you want rhythm watch Cab Calloway on youtube- awesome!!
Also the Dior Dancers [a dance troup from 1957].The lady in the
group is so sexy and an incredible athlete.Power, flexibility -the whole five yards.Again on You Tube.
Cheers, Joe.

[abraxis]

Well, sure. But you're chasing something here. Surely you must have some idea of what it is you're chasing?

Mary,

I'm not disputing that this line of inquiry can quickly get complicated and could fly in the face of the Aikido establishment. I mean, it is a MARTIAL Art after all and how does music fit into that? And then there's the spiritual meditation aspects--how can anyone be expected to achieve a proper meditative or spiritual state with music playing!? Show some respect for Budo after all etc.( Sorry for being facetious.) Seriously, I know this wouldn't be for everyone or every practice session even in a dojo where the dojocho supported it. Maybe it's not for the majority of serious minded aikido players, maybe it's just for certain kids who are beginners, maybe it's only for people whose wiring is, well, atypical.

All that aside, to answer your direct question quite directly I'll refer to the same explanation I offered to Krystal Locke earlier today: "My hope is that music might be productively combined with Aikido and that some dojos will continue to explore this relationship since there is great potential benefit-- both physical and spiritual -- in a connection of the two." That's my belief, I'm not seeking to impose it on anybody, but I'm sticking to it.

Best regards,

RT

NB See also Matthew Gano's post which immediately followed yours for some additional reasons why some of us feel this way eg.
the part where Matthew says "....There is a strong relationship with rhythm and endurance, which is partly why it's so popular to run to music, but I think there are deeper relationships too. Oliver Sacks has some wonderful material on the nature of music and neurological issues..." Props to Matthew for his comments.

[abraxis]

Two more edited pieces of footage with music only added after the fact but they're both very much worth looking at with the sound on I think.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0IS_UMp7Rs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sWevsixF7k&feature=player_embedded

[lbb]

Hi Rudy,

Thanks for the explanation. I guess my reaction stems from something that I perceive as pretty common in American culture (and probably others as well): trying to achieve some kind of inner state or change by moving around the outer circumstances, sometimes in very indirect ways. To give one non-aikido example, take the case of people who search out cafes that are "good places to study" (something very common in college towns). These people want to set up some kind of ideal circumstances so that they can get work done -- they want to achieve a mental state of optimum concentration and focus on the task at hand. But in order to do this, they need an espresso bar, and the right kind of music, and comfortable chairs, and wifi, and a good vibe, whatever that is.

Now, granted, if the external circumstances are extremely poor -- if fire alarms are going off and your roommate keeps talking to you, and the room is 40 degrees (Fahrenheit or Celsius, take your pick), if you haven't slept in the last 24 hours and haven't eaten in three days and your chair is covered with broken glass -- then yes, the external circumstances are likely to prevent you from getting work done. But in a more reasonable scenario, I think that people often invest their external circumstances with a great deal of power. I spend a lot of time in Boston, the biggest college town in America, and there are a great many students who seem unable to study in the dorm rooms, class rooms and libraries that their universities provide. They need their situation to be just so -- large latte, corner table with the comfy chair near the power outlet, steady wifi, good music -- and then...then, they can study.

But really, what does any of that have to do with studying? I'm willing to accept Matthew's premise that there's a connection between music and endurance, or music and distraction, or whatever. So how, in the millenia of human history before the iPod, did anyone ever manage to focus on an intellectual task?

The fact that people have accomplished all kinds of tasks in situations where the external circumstances weren't so congenial, leads me to believe that they're often not as necessary as we think they are, and that focusing on them only makes us less capable. You don't need a large latte and a wifi connection to study, but you can convince yourself that you do, and belief can become reality, and if you don't have that latte, you really won't be capable of studying without it. You become dependent on things being just so; your capabilities become more brittle, more subject to things outside your control.

At a less extreme level, your efforts to arrange the external circumstances can misdirect you. Meditation is one example of this. A lot of people come to martial arts with a vague belief that it's going to somehow help them achieve a meditative state -- and it is true, people do achieve meditative states while training. But if that mental state is what you're after, why go after it through the study of something that may, if you're lucky, produce it as an accidental by-product? Why not just study meditation?

One obvious answer is the same answer for why people try to "study" in a cafe instead of in a library: because it's more fun that way. I have no trouble believing that it's more fun to study with a latte in hand, some nice music, a comfy chair and the whole interwebs to distract you, than it is to buckle down at a study table in a library (no beverages allowed, sorry!) -- and I can also believe that it's more fun to "meditate" by doing something different than meditation and hoping that a meditative state just happens, than it is to sit down on a cushion and do the hard work (and it is hard work) to reject distractions rather than indulging in them, and keep bringing yourself back to that same boring uncomfortable point of focus. But if you truly want the benefits of study, or meditation, or exercise, or anything else, I have to believe that the best way to get them is to buckle down at the thing itself, not at some more engaging, less demanding activity that you hope will bring you the gain without the pain.

[mathewjgano]

Rudy,
Thanks for the props! I appreciate it!
This is a fun topic; I can tell I'm going to be thinking about music a bit more the next few days. :)

Mary,
I think that's a good point to make and goes to the heart of a lot of society's problems. People like to take the view that personal taste isn't learned, and place blame outside themselves for their lack of enjoyment, sabotaging a lot of potentially good activities. Because music tends to affect us on such an emotional level, I can see how a lot of folks could be insulating themselves further by just giving their inner child a fish instead of teaching it how to fish...for lack of a better description.

One of Gardner's multiple intelligences is music (http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_multiple_intelligences#Musical). This wasn't to say that some people only learn with music so much as to say music lends itself toward some learning and some people are more comfortable with that...which of course begs Mary's question.

Here's a site listing a few potential benefits: http://www.thelearningweb.net/music-learning.html I'm not sure of Dryden's qualifications, but this might be a good place to start.
Take care, and thanks for the great conversation!
Matt

p.s. this might be a better place: http://www.baatltd.com/newsletters/The%20Role%20of%20Music%20in%20Learning.pdf
...hmmm, hard to find something quickly that isn't attached to a business...:disgust:

[abraxis]

Hi Mary and Matthew,

.... But if you truly want the benefits of study, or meditation, or exercise, or anything else, I have to believe that the best way to get them is to buckle down at the thing itself, not at some more engaging, less demanding activity that you hope will bring you the gain without the pain.

Granted. I agree that what passes for a study or meditative environment is often inappropriate to the stated goals and objectives of the true task at hand. Agreement is good. ;)
On the other hand: ever tried studying while standing in a crowded subway car at rush hour while the train shakes and rattles around a curve at 50mph making the wheels screech at 120db? It's done all the time. So is meditation. So is Aikido. It's very much at the heart of why OSensei developed Aikido. And is also why Matthew has kindly supplied us with more information about Music and Learning which I just noticed while keyboarding this. That's all the time I have for now, I have a bunch of Aiki gardening to do.

Maybe what I just wrote doesn't help explain why it's reasonable to believe an integration of Music and Aikido can be of great value in the real world. So, here's a link sent to me by a Sensei who knows more about these things than I ever will. He calls it Aiki Music.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPZydAotVOY&feature=player_embedded

[abraxis]

Some shallow data mining here on AikiWeb brings up these recent posts related to Aikido and Music:

In the thread "Internal strength/aiki vs. mechanically efficient movement?"
I think what you are describing is a major part of internal martial arts.

I think, "Aiki" is different than what you described. I believe "Aiki" is non physical. But non magical as well. Aiki is what musicians use in order to play music together, not physical, but not magical either.

And the thread "Musical aiki?" at
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18910&highlight=aiki+music

Clearly, there's been more interest in relating music to Aikido here on AikiWeb than I was aware of when I started this thread. Lends evidence to the belief that Aiki Music is a topic which enjoys a small but dedicated interest group among aikidoka around the globe. In any case, here's a link to another bit of "Pure Aiki Music" I hope people will respond to positively.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEW0BtFuj5I

[observer]

Unfortunately, I rarely look in here due to the fact that my posts usually are not reciprocated. Nevertheless, music and aikido have always played a big role in my life. May I begin by saying that a few years ago I became fascinated by Carlos Saura's film "Tango". Since then, tango has become my other passion (after aikido) and of course its history is not foreign to me. What was a mystery to me, is the message that till 1930 dancing the tango was by men only (and in suspicious places); men still of course interested in women. To get to the heart of the matter I even went to Buenos Aires and met there with outstanding representatives of the art of tango.

As it turned out, the tango has its roots in the environment of gauchos, local cowboys, for which the last argument in squabbles was a knife. They spent hours on tedious exercises in a knife's fighting, mostly on techniques' repetitions. To kill the boredom they began doing their exercises accompanied by music with a highly variable rate. Maybe it is a reason that in today's Argentinian Tango we can observe the rigorous rule: men lead, women follow. Uke attacks, and the tori avoids the attack, moving in a certain way but always being in close contact.

If we now associate the basic aikido attacks with knife's cuts and thrusts, it imposes the same thought. In aikido the most important thing is not to be touched before doing a technique. With this skill a man is not born, and unfortunately today's methodology of aikido teaching is not conducive to learning it. I decided to solve that issue by developing an hour aikido class which is accompanied by 21 music hits, including mainly Argentinian Tango, and it always starts with the Relax Taiso (http://www.aikidoworkout.com/clips/relax_taiso.wmv). But that's another story.

[Mary Eastland]

Hi Maciej:
That video was well done. I enjoyed it and your post. Do you have any other videes I could see?
Thank you,
Mary

[abraxis]

Unfortunately, I rarely look in here due to the fact that my posts usually are not reciprocated. Nevertheless, music and aikido have always played a big role in my life. May I begin by saying that a few years ago I became fascinated by Carlos Saura's film "Tango". Since then, tango has become my other passion (after aikido) and of course its history is not foreign to me. What was a mystery to me, is the message that till 1930 dancing the tango was by men only (and in suspicious places); men still of course interested in women. To get to the heart of the matter I even went to Buenos Aires and met there with outstanding representatives of the art of tango.

As it turned out, the tango has its roots in the environment of gauchos, local cowboys, for which the last argument in squabbles was a knife. They spent hours on tedious exercises in a knife's fighting, mostly on techniques' repetitions. To kill the boredom they began doing their exercises accompanied by music with a highly variable rate. Maybe it is a reason that in today's Argentinian Tango we can observe the rigorous rule: men lead, women follow. Uke attacks, and the tori avoids the attack, moving in a certain way but always being in close contact.

If we now associate the basic aikido attacks with knife's cuts and thrusts, it imposes the same thought. In aikido the most important thing is not to be touched before doing a technique. With this skill a man is not born, and unfortunately today's methodology of aikido teaching is not conducive to learning it. I decided to solve that issue by developing an hour aikido class which is accompanied by 21 music hits, including mainly Argentinian Tango, and it always starts with the Relax Taiso (http://www.aikidoworkout.com/clips/relax_taiso.wmv). But that's another story.

Hello Maciej,

You are far ahead of me in thinking about the relationship between aikido and music and you have my admiration. Do you know of a dojocho in your area who would allow you to teach (or co-teach under their supervision) a weekly class such as the one you have designed? Do you think a Y or a gym which offers various alternative exercise classes would be willing to let you offer classes if a traditional dojo isn't open to your ideas? I wish you great success and hope you will let the AikiWeb community know of your progress in this regard. Finally, sincere thanks for the link Relax Taiso (http://www.aikidoworkout.com/clips/relax_taiso.wmv)

Best regards,

RT

[Demetrio Cereijo]

... that till 1930 dancing the tango was by men only (and in suspicious places); men still of course interested in women. To get to the heart of the matter I even went to Buenos Aires and met there with outstanding representatives of the art of tango.

As it turned out, the tango has its roots in the environment of gauchos, local cowboys, for which the last argument in squabbles was a knife. They spent hours on tedious exercises in a knife's fighting, mostly on techniques' repetitions. To kill the boredom they began doing their exercises accompanied by music with a highly variable rate. Maybe it is a reason that in today's Argentinian Tango we can observe the rigorous rule: men lead, women follow. Uke attacks, and the tori avoids the attack, moving in a certain way but always being in close contact.
Hi Maciej.

Interesting revisionist version of tango history. Do you have sources substantiating it?

OTOH, aikido and tango video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rG_tnefyOcc

And more aikido w/music:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3ARV05ZSvg

[abraxis]

.... aikido and tango video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rG_tnefyOcc
And more aikido w/music:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3ARV05ZSvg

Demetrio,
Great stuff! I also agree with the comments (under more) made by the person who uploaded the second video.
Best

[abraxis]

Rudy,
Thanks for the props! I appreciate it!
This is a fun topic; I can tell I'm going to be thinking about music a bit more the next few days. :)

Mary,
I think that's a good point to make and goes to the heart of a lot of society's problems. People like to take the view that personal taste isn't learned, and place blame outside themselves for their lack of enjoyment, sabotaging a lot of potentially good activities. Because music tends to affect us on such an emotional level, I can see how a lot of folks could be insulating themselves further by just giving their inner child a fish instead of teaching it how to fish...for lack of a better description.

One of Gardner's multiple intelligences is music (http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_multiple_intelligences#Musical). This wasn't to say that some people only learn with music so much as to say music lends itself toward some learning and some people are more comfortable with that...which of course begs Mary's question.

Here's a site listing a few potential benefits: http://www.thelearningweb.net/music-learning.html I'm not sure of Dryden's qualifications, but this might be a good place to start.
Take care, and thanks for the great conversation!
Matt

p.s. this might be a better place: http://www.baatltd.com/newsletters/The%20Role%20of%20Music%20in%20Learning.pdf
...hmmm, hard to find something quickly that isn't attached to a business...:disgust:

Matthew,

I think you raise important points regarding the potential benefit of incorporating music into aikido practice. And I think that Mary's concerns are legitimate and speak to the concerns of the large majority of aikidoka.

Thinking about why this may be the case, and I'm probably treading on sensitive ground by saying this, so with all due respect for Mary's concerns and especially with respect for a culture as ancient and as noble as Japan's, I will say that I think we are describing an americanization of aikido which most Japanese aikidoka, (and most american ones as well), especially of an older generation, find borderline, or over the borderline if you will, repugnant.

I believe this reaction to the topic of music and aikido may possibly stem from traditional Japanese attitudes regarding "public displays of affection" (PDA's) and "loss of face"(LOF). I'm not trying to be facetious here, it happens though so I'll apologize in advance, but isn't it likely that there is an underlying fear that if you pair music and aikido together it is apt to lead to dancing? It would fly in the face of OSensei's aikido but much more deeply it would look like a drawn out and emotion laden PDA and there would be great LOF as a result.

In America people are told to dance as if nobody was watching. How likely is it this feeling would be fostered in a dojo in Japan? In a European one maybe, and now, soon possibly, at least in in a few instances, in America as well. But not without a willingness to explore the question.

Best regards,

RT

[mathewjgano]

In America people are told to dance as if nobody was watching. How likely is it this feeling would be fostered in a dojo in Japan? In a European one maybe, and now, soon possibly, at least in in a few instances, in America as well. But not without a willingness to explore the question.

Best regards,

RT
Hi Rudy,
If there's a cultural componant that would shy away from music being integrated I think it would be more along the lines of something based on notions of tradition more than PDA or LOF. I was surprised how often I saw groups of Japanese kids dancing in public (which would certainly be different from older generations, so who knows what that says for future attitudes). Budo, having such a long tradition of established norms might seem strange to incorporate things like music as a central training theme. I think it's similarly true for westerners though. I think most people think "hippie" when they think of mixing music with more "serious" practices, although it probably depends largely on the music.
It's interesting to me how all the videos I see with "bad-ass" music instantly make me a little cynical. I imagine, for different specific reasons, it's the same for a lot of other people when they see some other bit of music too. Like me, their presumptions color their understanding and make them more ready to write it off as mental game-play.
The music might also make the choreographed nature of some training aspects really stand out, too. Looking at some of the music/aikido videos I think I can see why a lot of folks wouldn't be very interested in it from a "practical fighting" standpoint. The tempo of movements seems to get very drawn out and most "martial" artists I think are interested in tightening their beats up. If we're waiting for the set rythm to establish our next movement, they're not very organic/alive in terms of timing. That's not to say it couldn't be done; I think it would be interesting to play with a simple rythm and gradually tighten (or loosen) the tempo.
Take care,
Matt

[dps]

For background music something like this,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6yuR8efotI&feature=related

dps

[mathewjgano]

For background music something like this,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6yuR8efotI&feature=related

dps

Nice! I love Bach...and you can't go too wrong with cello or violin in my mind. Vivaldi (http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N00XKtROddc&feature=related) is another one toward the top of my list.
One of my favorite songs to run, ski, or read to is Orion (http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbUJilAbPQA), by Metallica. I really like their instrumentals in general though because they have a nice driving groove, but enjoy a little melody too.
And for those with a more "classical" timbre: Rodrigo y Gabriela (http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0CsLefLisE&feature=related). I like every single song I've heard them play, even Stairway to Heaven (http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNc5o9TU0t0&feature=related).
Also, while we're on the subject, I'm a huge Doors fan and I came across a guy named Jaz Coleman (http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLHJzx49mAA) who translated an album worth of their music into concerto format, which I like to put on in the background at home from time to time. Beautiful violin work by Nigel Kennedy!

[abraxis]

Hi David and Matthew,

You've provided people reading your recent posts with invaluable pieces of "Pure Aiki Music".

I can see some people listening to certain pieces while viewing aikido footage at home (I know I'll be doing that this evening), some may have a piece of music accompany their meditation or warm-ups before or after a class. Some people will choose to have a piece play in the background during a group practice:-- assuming the dojocho and everyone attending agrees in advance! I'm thinking of having the Bach Cello Prelude playing in the background next time I practice a jo kata in the backyard (no prior informed consent needed).

Not every piece and not every application will be for everyone that's certain, but for those who are predisposed to relate the spiritual nature of a piece of music to the spiritual flow of their physical movements these pieces promise to bring a unique quality of peace and joy to their practice of aikido.

Best regards,

Rudy

[graham christian]

Dear Graham,
If you want rhythm watch Cab Calloway on youtube- awesome!!
Also the Dior Dancers [a dance troup from 1957].The lady in the
group is so sexy and an incredible athlete.Power, flexibility -the whole five yards.Again on You Tube.
Cheers, Joe.

Hi Joe.
Just seen them. Cab Calloway WAS o.k. but more tap dancing than anything.

However, the dior dancers.....WOW. Makes pole dancing seem rather silly don't you think?

http://youtu.be/iYg7_ikJgFg

The moves, especially near the end were breathtaking. (Purely from a technical viewpoint you understand.)

Hmm. I need a drink!

Regards.G.

[Mary Eastland]

Wow...That one was hard for me to watch. While I admire the athleticism, it was painful to watch a woman be treated like that and then literally and symbolically thrown away.

[Marie Noelle Fequiere]

My instructor hasn't done that in a while, but he used to play some meditating music during class, mostly Kitaro. It did help us relax.
I also remember that when I was practicing Karate, we had to move from the place where we were training (we heard there was a big fight between the current owner of the place and some family members who claimed they'd inherited part of it). For about a year, we found refuge in a health club, and there was no way avoiding the music from the weight lifting room. Some students complained about it, but I quickly learned to ignore the din and concentrate on what I was doing.

[dps]

My instructor hasn't done that in a while, but he used to play some meditating music during class, mostly Kitaro.

A quick search found this one that I like.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ulc51ZOGQk&feature=related

dps

[abraxis]

My instructor hasn't done that in a while, but he used to play some meditating music during class, mostly Kitaro. It did help us relax.
I also remember that when I was practicing Karate, we had to move from the place where we were training (we heard there was a big fight between the current owner of the place and some family members who claimed they'd inherited part of it). For about a year, we found refuge in a health club, and there was no way avoiding the music from the weight lifting room. Some students complained about it, but I quickly learned to ignore the din and concentrate on what I was doing.

Marie,

So you found the music chosen by your instructor could help you relax and the music from outside the dojo could be ignored.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGtKxbu7vLI

Looking at Wikipedia for Kitaro it says "The events of September 11, 2001 occurred while he was en route from Japan to Los Angeles. Kitaro's jet liner was diverted to Honolulu for five days, during which time the conceptual endeavor -- which he envisioned as an artistic means to help unify people globally -- took shape. Every track on Sacred Journey of Ku-Kai 1 to 4 contains samples from ancient Japanese temple bells (Peace Bells) from 88 sacred temples and is intended to inspire spiritual awakening and a profound sense of peace in its listeners." Seems like that could prove worth listening to while practicing aikido. If someone wanted to ignore it though it probably wouldn't be too difficult.

Best regards,

RT

[Marie Noelle Fequiere]

Wow...That one was hard for me to watch. While I admire the athleticism, it was painful to watch a woman be treated like that and then literally and symbolically thrown away.

I almost got dizzy myself. And I did not like the sexism at all. But she seemed to be over eighteen and to enjoy it.

[abraxis]

... I was surprised how often I saw groups of Japanese kids dancing in public (which would certainly be different from older generations, so who knows what that says for future attitudes). Budo, having such a long tradition of established norms might seem strange to incorporate things like music as a central training theme....

Matthew,

A peek into the future of Budo in Japan? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xB9u1k1TIDc

Regards

Rudy

[guest1234567]

Unfortunately, I rarely look in here due to the fact that my posts usually are not reciprocated. Nevertheless, music and aikido have always played a big role in my life. May I begin by saying that a few years ago I became fascinated by Carlos Saura's film "Tango". Since then, tango has become my other passion (after aikido) and of course its history is not foreign to me. What was a mystery to me, is the message that till 1930 dancing the tango was by men only (and in suspicious places); men still of course interested in women. To get to the heart of the matter I even went to Buenos Aires and met there with outstanding representatives of the art of tango.

As it turned out, the tango has its roots in the environment of gauchos, local cowboys, for which the last argument in squabbles was a knife. They spent hours on tedious exercises in a knife's fighting, mostly on techniques' repetitions. To kill the boredom they began doing their exercises accompanied by music with a highly variable rate. Maybe it is a reason that in today's Argentinian Tango we can observe the rigorous rule: men lead, women follow. Uke attacks, and the tori avoids the attack, moving in a certain way but always being in close contact.

If we now associate the basic aikido attacks with knife's cuts and thrusts, it imposes the same thought. In aikido the most important thing is not to be touched before doing a technique. With this skill a man is not born, and unfortunately today's methodology of aikido teaching is not conducive to learning it. I decided to solve that issue by developing an hour aikido class which is accompanied by 21 music hits, including mainly Argentinian Tango, and it always starts with the Relax Taiso (http://www.aikidoworkout.com/clips/relax_taiso.wmv). But that's another story.

Hi Maciej,
I was born in Buenos Aires and heard tango during all my childhood but cannot dance it.It is a sad music, the words are in lunfardo(slang of Buenos aires). One of the greatest poets of tango Discépolo said: Tango is a sad thought danced. There is a beautiful movie"Take the lead" the real story of the ballroom dance teacher Pierre Dulaine, who teaches respect, compassion and learn to control their own lifes to disadvantaged children http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Dulaine
And I'm sure that we could apply this to aikido too.

[abraxis]

....There is a beautiful movie"Take the lead" the real story of the ballroom dance teacher Pierre Dulaine, who teaches respect, compassion and learn to control their own lifes to disadvantaged children http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Dulaine
And I'm sure that we could apply this to aikido too.

Hi Carina,
Here you see it being applied in NYC public schools
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5wEb_3S2VM&feature=related
Regards

[abraxis]

Surfing a bit on the web I just now found a different view of why aikido is traditionally practiced in silence. I am not a Far East Asian History scholar and will not try to judge the accuracy of the statements made but they are probably worth exploring. The link to the source article follows the quote.

"After the end of the war, during GHQ occupation of Japan, the military police could find little to complain about during a visit to Iwama. Deep in the countryside, surrounded by chestnut trees, suwariwaza (kneeling techniques) was practiced at the Iwama dojo. If anything, to the GHQ it looked like a strange local dance more than it did a martial art form. Secretly Ueshiba and his students practiced suburi (weapons training) using hoe handles for bokken and ladle handles for jos. Stored in the farming tool sheds, the handles did not look like anything used for the practice of a martial art. This practice became the origin of Iwama style Aikido. During this time at Iwama, the Founder's open-hand Aikido practice was always a silent practice. Usually the practice was held on wooden floors, which were too hard to hit or land hard on. Even if practicing on tatami, no kiai were allowed. For the rest of his life, the Founder continued practice at Iwama in this fashion."

http://www.nippon-kan.org/ahan/journey_to_ahan.html

[Marie Noelle Fequiere]

A quick search found this one that I like.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ulc51ZOGQk&feature=related

dps

Thanks David, I really loved it, and I did not know this music yet. Of course, it's rather energetic, not like those that Sensei usually chooses for the classes. This one would fit better with a Karate class, but my Karate instructor did not believe in using music for his classes.
We're trying to convince him - my Karate instructor - to reopen the school, after the instructor who took over after him died during the earthquake. In fact, I remember that we received one day a visit from an instructor from New York - also deceased, from cancer - who told us he liked to animate his classes with drum musics. The guy was actually born in Haiti, so I suppose that his roots had something to do with his way of teaching.
Anyway, the martial arts are evolving just like everything else. You can transport a tradition from one country to another, but you cannot keep the locals from adding their own flavor to the stuff.

[mathewjgano]

Surfing a bit on the web I just now found a different view of why aikido is traditionally practiced in silence. I am not a Far East Asian History scholar and will not try to judge the accuracy of the statements made but they are probably worth exploring. The link to the source article follows the quote.

http://www.nippon-kan.org/ahan/journey_to_ahan.html

Very interesting, thank you! One other possible factor I can think of would have to do with Iwama having a shrine, which is generally somewhat austere. "Shrine music (http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjI0cWjyD6Y)" tends to have a quiet (though piercing) intensity, in my opinion, and is probably only for matsuri or other formal events.
I think this quiet intensity is a common theme in Japanese culture.

[Demetrio Cereijo]

Ahem...

From Homma Sensei article Rudy has just linked.
This practice became the origin of Iwama style Aikido. During this time at Iwama, the Founder's open-hand Aikido practice was always a silent practice. Usually the practice was held on wooden floors, which were too hard to hit or land hard on. Even if practicing on tatami, no kiai were allowed. For the rest of his life, the Founder continued practice at Iwama in this fashion.

Who can explain me why there are the sounds of kiai heard here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDTHwCG3Epc) (starting at 3:50), here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYmZPdSyqcQ) (starting at 2:35), here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aw7OKN7FTmE) (starting at 5:08 and continuing here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLlfyZx7bPA), or here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5FtreEFnvc) (big kiai of O Sensei at 3:35). Kiai heard both in empty hands and weapons practise.

That's the Iwama dojo in the early 60's, isn't it?

[Phil Van Treese]

I use music alot to teach randori. The fun part is when I pull the plug, or turn it off, everyone has to freeze in whatever position they are in. Uke and Tori (nage) are NOT allowed to adjust. Nage, from whatever position he is in, must do a technique---throw, choke, takedown etc from his frozen position. Harder than you think and they have to think of a technique to do. They do get stumpted alot but they are getting better at it.

[abraxis]

Ahem...
From Homma Sensei article Rudy has just linked.
Who can explain me why there are the sounds of kiai heard here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDTHwCG3Epc) (starting at 3:50), here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYmZPdSyqcQ) (starting at 2:35), here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aw7OKN7FTmE) (starting at 5:08 and continuing here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLlfyZx7bPA), or here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5FtreEFnvc) (big kiai of O Sensei at 3:35). Kiai heard both in empty hands and weapons practise.
That's the Iwama dojo in the early 60's, isn't it?

Maybe Homma Sensei can. His contact info is found at

http://www.nippon-kan.org/info_contact/info.html

Please let us know what he has to say.

[Demetrio Cereijo]

Sorry, but I'm not going to ask him. It could be seen as disrespectful and politically/agenda driven. Questioning aikido masters' words of is a no-no.

[abraxis]

I followed up on David Soroko's advice ...You can contact Miles Kessler Sensei (http://www.ai-ki-do.org/Dojocho/Spotlights/MKessler.html) with your other questions. and have received Kessler Sensei's e-mail which is quoted here in its entirety. My sincere thanks to David for his advice and to Kessler Sensei for his kind reply which I'm sure will prove to be of great interest to readers of this thread.
________________________________________________________________________________ ______________________________

Hi Rudy,

Yes to all of your questions. When applied properly music can be a wonderful supplement to training. I use it primarily in "jiyu waza" and we find that the rhythm helps people to let go of the technical forms and into the flow. We have an "Aikido Jam" once a week and it is a nice balance to the technical classes. Not everyone is interested in aikido with music so they usually stick to the technical classes. But I must say, it is my direct experience that the students that integrate the tech training with the jams have a much more rounded out training than those who don't. The Jams are designed to relax the body, the mind, and especially the forms of aikido. The students who don't participate in the jams tend to me more stuck in their practice in areas of freedom outside the form, free movement, flow, and spontaneous response. I also find that the jams cultivate more open mindedness.

There are so many things to speak about (such as the conditions, the flow cycle of a class, types of music, specific exercises, jam themes, movement and stillness, and the value of silence, etc.) but I'll keep it brief here.

If you are ever in Tel Aviv you are very welcome to join in.

Best regards,

Miles Kessler
Aikido Sensei, Dharma Teacher, Director - The Integral Dojo
"Changing The Way We See The World"
Office +972-(0)3-562-4164
www.theintegraldojo.com