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Max Factor613
05-03-2011, 01:48 AM
On the days following the information of the death of Bin Laden.... i found the quote

"I mourn the loss of thousands of precious lives, but I will not rejoice in the death of one, not even an enemy. Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that."-Martin Luther King, Jr

how do you think the conversation between O Sensei and Martin Luther King Jr would go or look like on the views of humanity

then ask yourself how did you feel the first time you heard the news ?

regards

Max
Martial virtues Courage..Justice..Wisdom..Benevolence yep i am still working on them!

mathewjgano
05-03-2011, 02:29 AM
On the days following the information of the death of Bin Laden.... i found the quote

"I mourn the loss of thousands of precious lives, but I will not rejoice in the death of one, not even an enemy. Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that."-Martin Luther King, Jr

how do you think the conversation between O Sensei and Martin Luther King Jr would go or look like on the views of humanity

then ask yourself how did you feel the first time you heard the news ?

regards

Max
Martial virtues Courage..Justice..Wisdom..Benevolence yep i am still working on them!

Funny that I was reminded of this quote a little earlier today and in the same context. I'll admit I was happy, sad, and even somewhat indifferent. There's a lot to sift through in situations like this. I'm a firm believer in caring about your enemies and I dislike that I can be happy someone died. Then again, people like him seem almost like a breed apart.
You might say this represents an ongoing love-hate relationship I have with the human condition.
I'm still working on understanding and developing virtue.
Take care,
Matt

sakumeikan
05-03-2011, 04:26 AM
Dear All,
Perhaps I am a minority of one but somehow I cannot help feeling that the deaths of Saddam Husseinn and now Osama Bin Laden help to resolve the problems that exist in the regions of Afghanistan etc.
The same administration that assisted in their downfall was the same administration[be it under a different president] who was happy to deal with both these guys when they were fighting the Russians /Iranians years ago.So one minute they are a good mates, next they are public enemies.
Do not get me wrong, having visited ground zero I cannot begin to imagine the horror , sadness and courage that the citizens of N.Y
suffered/displayed , nor do I condone the deaths of the Kurds.These acts were unspeakable.
Nevertheless unless we in the West endeavour to meet
and discuss issues that are contentious eg Iran /Nuclear expansion/North Korea issues/ and of course Iraq /Afghanistan
with all the representatives[including the Taliban ] all I think we are doing is perpetuating the endless cycle of violence and terrorism.
I think that O Sensei /M.L. King saw the bigger picture, namely that no man is an island and we are all citizens of planet earth
Cheers, Joe.

Demetrio Cereijo
05-03-2011, 05:41 AM
Dear All,
Perhaps I am a minority of one but somehow I cannot help feeling that the deaths of Saddam Husseinn and now Osama Bin Laden help to resolve the problems that exist in the regions of Afghanistan etc.

I don't think solving the problems in the Middle East was the purpose. Osama death was about justice (or vengeance) and instilling fear in USA enemies.

lbb
05-03-2011, 08:07 AM
then ask yourself how did you feel the first time you heard the news ?
Initial reaction: "Wait, what?" Honestly, I don't know when was the last time I thought about bin Laden. Certainly I'd stopped waiting for "us" to "get him".

After that: nothing, really. I had a busy day.

When someone first asked me how I felt about it, and I took the time to explore that...well. It's said that when the Dalai Lama heard the news of the death of Mao Zedong, he wept, because of his feeling of compassion for Mao. For anyone who doesn't know, it's estimated that between 600,000 and 1.2 million Tibetans have died under the Chinese occupation that began under Mao's leadership and that continues to this day. Countless others have been imprisoned, tortured, exiled, and suffered under relentless attempts to eradicate their culture.

Now, there's a common reaction to any reference to a compassionate reaction to the misfortune of an evildoer, when that reaction comes from someone like the Dalai Lama (or Martin Luther King Jr., or Mahatma Gandhi, or Mother Theresa) -- and I expect that those posting that MLK quote (you're the third or perhaps fourth one I've seen so far) are getting some of that. "But he/she was a saint, and I'm not!" Well, maybe. But we do ourselves and our world a disservice when we draw an uncrossable line between ourselves and those we label as saintly, just as we do when we draw such a firm line between ourselves and those we call evil. The Dalai Lama wept for Mao out of compassion -- and the meaning of "compassion" is a lot closer to "understanding" than it is to "saintliness". Mao was given a precious human life, as we all have been -- a life with so much potential. We all have language and intelligence and the ability to communicate, to pass on our understanding and receive understanding from others, and that is what makes each human life such a precious opportunity. And Mao had squandered his. With a lifetime of opportunities to develop understanding and compassion and to do good, he had instead become a terrible oppressor. Now his last chance to do good was gone. And that is why the Dalai Lama wept, for that lost chance, and for the pain that soul would carry into its next life.

That was my reaction when I thought about bin Laden's death. Beyond the precious opportunity that we all have, he was born to money and privilege and countless opportunities to do good. And he squandered it all. What a sad, sorry waste.

Discussions like this always have the risk of devolving into an argument of "you should feel this" or "you shouldn't feel that". Well, you feel what you feel. But maybe we can set aside the reflex to justify our feelings, and spend some time simply trying to understand them instead.

Gorgeous George
05-03-2011, 08:28 AM
Two countries (directly) invaded; hundreds of thousands dead; over one billion people pissed off (indeed: most of the human race.); hundreds of billions of dollars spent...and finally, Mr Bin Laden is dead.

I'd love Spielberg to make a 'Munich' of this.

This might be of interest: http://www.articles.baltimoresun.com/2011-05-03/entertainment/bal-bin-ladens-death-spurs-spread-of-fake-martin-luther-king-jr-quote-on-facebook-20110502_1_bin-laden-facebook-page-facebook-friends

lbb
05-03-2011, 08:53 AM
http://www.articles.baltimoresun.com/2011-05-03/entertainment/bal-bin-ladens-death-spurs-spread-of-fake-martin-luther-king-jr-quote-on-facebook-20110502_1_bin-laden-facebook-page-facebook-friends

"article not found"

chillzATL
05-03-2011, 09:04 AM
My initial reaction was "cool, about time" then I rolled over and went back to sleep.

Gorgeous George
05-03-2011, 09:21 AM
"article not found"

Apologies. Try...

www.gawker.com/5797972/is-that-bin-laden+appropriate-martin-luther-king-jr-quote-a-fake

jonreading
05-03-2011, 10:06 AM
To the thread question... I think we are talking somewhat apples and oranges. I think what Rev. King accomplished in his life and subsequent years afterwards is astonishing. As for the quote, I believe the quote is in reference to the Christian message to bring love to others and express it in yourself. This was a key message from Dr. King for many years. In many ways, Dr. King's movement was built on the Greek "agape" love for mankind as expressed by Jesus in his "love thy neighbor as thyself" sermon. I do not know enough about Shinto or Omoto Kyo to apply the equivalent message from O'Sensei. Everyone is "pro-humanity", at least on paper. I believe while each would express their own religious perspective, I believe both were strong believers in self-worth, self-reliance and compassion. I also believe that both advocated action to better society from this strong foundation.

As for the more current drift... Osama bin Laden was a bad person. I believe his death is just for the evil he inflicted upon the world. I think it is appropriate to feel compassion for his passing as a human being; I also believe it is appropriate to feel compassion for the actions in his life that destroyed the lives of others. I believe the net balance of his life is not positive and that is why I do not feel sorrow for him.

In the movie Tombstone, The Doc Holiday character speaks about the rival Johnny Ringo. The quote is, "A man like Ringo has got a great big hole, right in the middle of him. He can never kill enough, or steal enough, or inflict enough pain to ever fill it." The quote is constructed and a little corny, but there is a kernel of truth that resonates with me; some people are just bad.

Before we let the shade of our politics color our comments, we would speak freely of good and bad. Now its perspective, right? There was a time when we had the courage to confront bad people. "Run 'em out of town on a rail", right? Now some politician tells me that I have to let a pedophile live next door to my two children. There is law and there is justice and the two are not the same thing anymore. And that was one of the things Dr. King fought for all his life; to make laws just for all.

akiy
05-03-2011, 10:58 AM
Hi folks,

Just a quick request to please keep this thread on-topic to aikido (eg in connection with the philosophy of aikido as expressed by Morihei Ueshiba). If you wish to discuss a related topic that isn't explicitly regarding aikido, please start a new thread in the Open Discussions forum. If I see that this topic drifts too far away from aikido, I'll be moving it to the Open Discussions forum.

Thank you,

-- Jun

Gorgeous George
05-03-2011, 11:57 AM
Hi folks,

Just a quick request to please keep this thread on-topic to aikido (eg in connection with the philosophy of aikido as expressed by Morihei Ueshiba). If you wish to discuss a related topic that isn't explicitly regarding aikido, please start a new thread in the Open Discussions forum. If I see that this topic drifts too far away from aikido, I'll be moving it to the Open Discussions forum.

Thank you,

-- Jun

Jun: I have started a thread in open Discussions in line with your request:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?p=282789#post282789

Thank you.

mathewjgano
05-03-2011, 12:26 PM
On the days following the information of the death of Bin Laden.... i found the quote

"I mourn the loss of thousands of precious lives, but I will not rejoice in the death of one, not even an enemy. Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that."-Martin Luther King, Jr

how do you think the conversation between O Sensei and Martin Luther King Jr would go or look like on the views of humanity

then ask yourself how did you feel the first time you heard the news ?

regards

Max
Martial virtues Courage..Justice..Wisdom..Benevolence yep i am still working on them!

Sorry, I didn't really answer in terms of Aikido. I posted right before bed last night.
I'm not sure how O Sensei would view it exactly...or Dr. King for that matter, though I suspect Dr. King would have taken the view that any killing is bad. My guess is that O Sensei would have felt bad about the loss of life, but taken a more "practical" view in that sometimes a warrior must take lives; the qualifier being, "when unable to protect them."
My view is to always strive for the protection of life and that ideally no one should ever kill anyone. I also take the view that while we strive for an ideal, we often fall short due to imperfections of our ability (hence the need for constant training/development). I think of that as the practical side of the proverbial coin.
Similarly, being that my ideal is for all life to be allowed the chance to grow and improve upon itself, I'm sad any time someone dies. On the other hand, I'm glad an influence for randomized murder has been ended. I doubt it will change much of anything else in the world...his influence has already created a huge impact on the minds of others willing to kill 10 for the perceived wrongs of 1, but he at least has ceased to be an active agent, apart from the martyrdom status he now holds in those same minds.
My hope is still to win the (now perhaps cliched) hearts and minds of our "enemies." I think O Sensei and Dr. King would have probably agreed with this idea.
I've been reading The Thoughts of Socrates, a translation of Xenophon, which at one point describes Socrates as saying something to the effect that people who use force to change society need a lot of other people to make it happen; that he who uses reason and compassion (I believe, based on earlier passages) needs only himself. It is this kind of personal actualization which I hold to be ideal. Violence is inherently flawed to my mind for this reason...and I believe people like Dr. King and O Sensei recognized something similar, if not the very same thing.
...That is to say, I believe this illustrates a principle of peace that is both ideal and practical, and is perhaps the foundation to Ueshiba's ideal for Aikido as well as Dr. King's ideal of non-violent resistance.
Something like that anyway.
Take care,
Matthew

C. David Henderson
05-03-2011, 12:36 PM
Well, as I now understand, it the source of the quote was not MLK, but a woman named Jessica Dovey, whose facebook page post quoting King and expressing herself was conflated -- how or why remains unclear -- and eventually cited as a quote from Dr. King by noted magician Penn Jillette. I'm not making this up:

http://www.salon.com/technology/twitter/index.html?story=/ent/tv/feature/2011/05/03/fake_mlj_quote_osama_death

If this new frame is accurate, I think it makes this thread quite fascinating in an unintended way that echos with Mary's post above.

Going back to the OP, we then would be having MLK and O Sensei discussing some very nice thoughts by an otherwise anonymous person with no apparent fame as or claim to being a saint or "wise person" tm.

It brings to mind a quote from the wise man known as Brian, "You're all individuals -- think for yourselves."

Michael Hackett
05-03-2011, 01:38 PM
Which O Sensei would Dr. King be conversing with? Prewar O Sensei, wartime O Sensei, or postwar O Sensei? While he was clearly informed by his Omoto ties during his adult life, there is some evidence that his political views were, for a time at least, quite militaristic.

Demetrio Cereijo
05-03-2011, 06:58 PM
It brings to mind a quote from the wise man known as Brian, "You're all individuals -- think for yourselves."

Wise man? Naughty boy, his mother said.
:D

C. David Henderson
05-03-2011, 07:48 PM
Well,

As realtors around here say, "Location, location, location."

;)

Carl Thompson
05-04-2011, 10:14 AM
I imagine Osensei would have approved of the sentiment but...

On the days following the information of the death of Bin Laden.... i found the quote

"I mourn the loss of thousands of precious lives, but I will not rejoice in the death of one, not even an enemy. Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that."-Martin Luther King, Jr

I initially took the quote as word for word but apparently it was taken from this and someone missed out a quotation mark:

I'm concerned about a better world. I'm concerned about justice; I'm concerned about brotherhood; I'm concerned about truth. And when one is concerned about that, he can never advocate violence. For through violence you may murder a murderer, but you can't murder murder. Through violence you may murder a liar, but you can't establish truth. Through violence you may murder a hater, but you can't murder hate through violence. Darkness cannot put out darkness; only light can do that.
http://mlk-kpp01.stanford.edu/index.php/encyclopedia/documentsentry/where_do_we_go_from_here_delivered_at_the_11th_annual_sclc_convention/

Does anyone have any more information regarding this at least well-meant meme?

Carl

Carl Thompson
05-04-2011, 10:42 AM
Found this link blaming one Jessica Dovey for it all:

http://newsfeed.time.com/2011/05/03/after-bin-ladens-death-mostly-fake-mlk-quote-goes-viral/#ixzz1LJ65k43q

http://i.imgur.com/cqtjw.jpg

mathewjgano
05-04-2011, 10:12 PM
Hi Carl,
How do you think the actual MLK quote relates to Osensei's view of Aikido later on in his life?

dps
05-05-2011, 04:24 AM
how do you think the conversation between O Sensei and Martin Luther King Jr would go or look like on the views of humanity

I don't normally play the "what if game" because it detracts from reality but at the risk of sounding irreverent toward what is or is held to be sacred about both men, I doubt that they would have anything meaningful to say to each other.

Both men were more concerned about themselves and were not the humanitarians that people make them out to be.



then ask yourself how did you feel the first time you heard the news ?



I was very upset.

Obama preempted the last fifteen minutes of Celebrity Apprentice to make the announcement then waited one hour to make the announcement ( Obama's petty revenge against Donald Trump ).

I was waiting for the big fight between NeNe and Star Jones.

I was not surprised about Osama Bin Laden,s death, he sealed it on 9/11/2001. It was only a matter of time.

dps

Carl Thompson
05-05-2011, 07:50 AM
Hi Carl,
How do you think the actual MLK quote relates to Osensei's view of Aikido later on in his life?

I'm not sure if the relationship between MLK's quote and Osensei's view of his art would differ that much between earlier and later on. His philosophy is straight from Omoto, predating the consolidation of his budo. In any case, Osensei said:

In true Budo there is neither opponent nor foe. True Budo is uniting with the centre of the Universe. It is the work of love. It is neither fighting nor killing. Rather, true Budo gives life and nurtures all things.
That seems to agree with MLK's comments about love in the actual quote to an extent. However I think Osensei went beyond relative concepts like good and evil.

Carl