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Alberto_Italiano
04-30-2011, 03:08 PM
I stumbled today into this:
Uke is coming towards me with a right handed Yokomenuchi.
I instinctively parry it with my right forearm, lifting his yokomenuchi upward above my head and as I do that I roll my forearm around his and I step forward.
At this point I find his hand trapped under my right armpit and my right forearm behind his elbow (the pressure is in the family of Ikkyos, obviously...).
I exert a minimal pressure with my right forearm against his elbow, adding to it the pressure of my left hand, his hand still trapped under my armpit, and I tenkan.

Uke is on his knees nearly immediately and I find myself placed in a very convenient position.

Has this a name? I stumbled into it acting istinctively and not in a dojo.
Thaank you

Tony Wagstaffe
04-30-2011, 03:34 PM
I stumbled today into this:
Uke is coming towards me with a right handed Yokomenuchi.
I instinctively parry it with my right forearm, lifting his yokomenuchi upward above my head and as I do that I roll my forearm around his and I step forward.
At this point I find his hand trapped under my right armpit and my right forearm behind his elbow (the pressure is in the family of Ikkyos, obviously...).
I exert a minimal pressure with my right forearm against his elbow, adding to it the pressure of my left hand, his hand still trapped under my armpit, and I tenkan.

Uke is on his knees nearly immediately and I find myself placed in a very convenient position.

Has this a name? I stumbled into it acting istinctively and not in a dojo.
Thaank you

Spontaneous waza....?

Alberto_Italiano
04-30-2011, 03:40 PM
I don't know. I suppose it must have some name. It just seems so natural now it came into that struggle, and so effective and simple, that I am supposing it must have been codified somewhere already.
I don't think it's my invention gee.

ps if it is I retain the right to baptise it: and we shall call it: The Preacher (keep doing it to guess why) :-D

However, seriously: I think it is codified somewhere, maybe not in aikido?

graham christian
04-30-2011, 03:57 PM
I don't know. I suppose it must have some name. It just seems so natural now it came into that struggle, and so effective and simple, that I am supposing it must have been codified somewhere already.
I don't think it's my invention gee.

ps if it is I retain the right to baptise it: and we shall call it: The Preacher (keep doing it to guess why) :-D

However, seriously: I think it is codified somewhere, maybe not in aikido?

I would say if as your facing him you are stepping through off line to the right then it is indeed a version of ikkyo. If you are stepping through to the left off line then the first part is half of iriminage and the second part half of ikkyo.

But that's analytical after the event. As Tony said it's just waza of which their is whatever happens based on aiki motion. You can analyze it after and then relate it to various standard techniques and learn from it. It's not exceptional, it's normal.

Having said that it sounds like you quite impressed yourself. Well done.

G.

Alberto_Italiano
04-30-2011, 04:04 PM
No, I am surprised that I have never met this technique before in any Aikido dojo.
I am arguing it is Aikido because it is not harmful to the opponent and it takes avail of ikkyo and tenkan principles. But as said maybe it is not.

Since I have never been taught this before, I am not impressed but rather I am surprised: why I have never seen this before, must be my fault probably.

It was very effective and started as an evolution along the natural lines of the most natural parry one may produce in such a setting.
It _must_ already have a name.

I would be somewaht puzzled if it hasn't. We teach many strange techniques at times, it can't be this one isn't in any official pack.

Maybe it's not aikido after all. Uhm.

Tony Wagstaffe
04-30-2011, 04:13 PM
No, I am surprised that I have never met this technique before in any Aikido dojo.
I am arguing it is Aikido because it is not harmful to the opponent and it takes avail of ikkyo and tenkan principles. But as said maybe it is not.

Since I have never been taught this before, I am not impressed but rather I am surprised: why I have never seen this before, must be my fault probably.

It was very effective and started as an evolution along the natural lines of the most natural parry one may produce in such a setting.
It _must_ already have a name.

I would be somewaht puzzled if it hasn't. We teach many strange techniques at times, it can't be this one isn't in any official pack.

Maybe it's not aikido after all. Uhm.

It sounded to me to be somewhere in between ikkyo and nikyo, but does it really matter if it worked? :)

Alberto_Italiano
04-30-2011, 04:22 PM
No it doesn't Attilio, you're quite right.

But if this was my invention on the spot and no one has a name for this, I am baffled.

Go try it then. It seems to call itself.

incoming yokomenuchi, you instinctively bow and parry with your same arm. Fear makes you do this.

as you raise up realising your right forearm is in contact with uke's arm, you keep rotating your arm from outward inwardly, as if spinning a rope around uke's arm. His hand is gonna go trapped under your armpit by itself.

Your hand is now already on his elbow, ready to exert any convenient pressure upward, straigtward and downward. With a tenkan you can place uke down using one arm only and nearly no strength (if you use both hands, you will find yourself with your joint hands in front of your chin as if you were praying).

bah it must have a name already, sometime it will come out!
i thought it had one and I only ad to ask to know it. Maybe it's not aikido.

thank you anyway - and happy techniques lol

sakumeikan
04-30-2011, 05:08 PM
I stumbled today into this:
Uke is coming towards me with a right handed Yokomenuchi.
I instinctively parry it with my right forearm, lifting his yokomenuchi upward above my head and as I do that I roll my forearm around his and I step forward.
At this point I find his hand trapped under my right armpit and my right forearm behind his elbow (the pressure is in the family of Ikkyos, obviously...).
I exert a minimal pressure with my right forearm against his elbow, adding to it the pressure of my left hand, his hand still trapped under my armpit, and I tenkan.

Uke is on his knees nearly immediately and I find myself placed in a very convenient position.

Has this a name? I stumbled into it acting istinctively and not in a dojo.
Thaank you
Hi, Alberto,
Sounds akin to Rokyuho. Cheers, Joe.

Michael Hackett
04-30-2011, 05:28 PM
Joe mentioned Rokyuho - I think that's what we call gokyu, the armbar. Alberto's technique sounds very much like a gokyu from a different position. We'll have to give it a try Monday.

Basia Halliop
04-30-2011, 05:29 PM
Do you mean something like this? (this is from a different attack, obviously)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XoKc5gZ0Hew

If yes, it's an Aikido technique with more than one name.

If you mean something else.... I wouldn't be surprised if it was also an Aikido technique... probably also with more than one name :).

Janet Rosen
04-30-2011, 05:31 PM
Our gokyo is ikkyo with hand position reversed, generally used for tanto takeaway. What Alberto describes I'd call the tenkan/ura version of what I learned as rokkyo.

graham christian
04-30-2011, 05:36 PM
No, I am surprised that I have never met this technique before in any Aikido dojo.
I am arguing it is Aikido because it is not harmful to the opponent and it takes avail of ikkyo and tenkan principles. But as said maybe it is not.

Since I have never been taught this before, I am not impressed but rather I am surprised: why I have never seen this before, must be my fault probably.

It was very effective and started as an evolution along the natural lines of the most natural parry one may produce in such a setting.
It _must_ already have a name.

I would be somewaht puzzled if it hasn't. We teach many strange techniques at times, it can't be this one isn't in any official pack.

Maybe it's not aikido after all. Uhm.

Alberto. I'm surprised by your view. I've seen it many times and similar.

I can visualize what you did and see lack of foot movement on your part and a yokomen where the attacker didn't go through.

If you bow and parry through fear and think that's natural then your mistaken. It will work only to the degree of incompetence or lack of strength or power of the attacker.

Plus on the subject of natural you wouldn't duck and parry any yokomen. You would have to move your body in harmony with the motion to meet it in the first place.

So yes it is part of learning Aikido but no it's not good Aikido and not good technique.

You won't see it on video because they only show the correct ones however I'm surprised you havn't seen it and similar if as you say you have been to many dojos. (when trying to rescue a bad situation)

Regards.G.

Michael Hackett
05-01-2011, 01:14 AM
The Iwama clip showing rokyo is gokyo to me. I agree with Graham C. when he speaks of ducking under the strike as being poor technique. With that exception, it still sounds like some sort of reverse gokyo technique.

sakumeikan
05-01-2011, 02:38 AM
Our gokyo is ikkyo with hand position reversed, generally used for tanto takeaway. What Alberto describes I'd call the tenkan/ura version of what I learned as rokkyo.
Dear Janet,
I meant rokkyo, Maths never my strong point! Cheers, Joe.

Michael Varin
05-01-2011, 02:45 AM
I get the sense that when Alberto is finished with his entry/blend that he is still facing opposite uke and the arm bar style lock on the elbow is coming from below, right arm on right arm. That is not rokkyo.

The problem I'm having is visualizing the tenkan from that position.

I could be way off base.

This is why videos help so much.

Eva Antonia
05-01-2011, 03:01 AM
Hi,

maybe I confuse something or cannot correctly visualise it from the description...but I'd have said hijikime osae (lock of upper arm under armpit); this is quite feasible on yokomen uchi and starts similarly to ikkyo.

Have a nice Sunday!

Eva

Amir Krause
05-01-2011, 03:55 AM
Sorry, could you post some video / drawings / animation

I can not even follow the phisical desctription.

Amir

Alberto_Italiano
05-01-2011, 09:32 AM
Hallo

ok I am trying to describe this better. To be sure, this happened in a real confrontation - something that last time happened to me 10 years ago. Not big deal, a drunkard attempting to throw a bottle at my face - that nice. And to be sure I was scared as HELL and not ashamed of saying it!

Unfortunately we have no video of that Kodak moment...

First just let me thank you all for your time, and let me answer to Graham objection: though dodging a hook by lowering may not be an aikido encouraged or appropriated procedure, it is the standard procedure with boxing.
Unfortunately that was my background 20 years ago and I still dodge hooks by lowering, instinctively.

But as Attilio stated, it's not important - the fact is, what came out by this "mistake" was something very effective when inserting Aikido principles on it.

In this case the right hook with the bottle: I lower. As I dodge lowering, I find my left hand near my chin and my right hand in front of my eyes and forehead.
Place yourself in such position, with slightly bent knees - it's easy.

Now I raise back (you too) to stand up once again. This is the most natural thing to do.

My right forearm gains a contact with uke's right arm. It is normal in such a dynamic. You may envision it easily, at least till this point.

Place your right hand in front of your face, at some average distance. Now lower and then raise back. Imagine now that you stand back again, that your right arm in front of your face feels the contact with ukes right forearm.

[0]
In this setting uke's right arm is on the right side of your face, and your right forearm intercept it and clashes with it as you stand back.

Now I try to describe the natural eveolution of the thing, how this technique came out by itself.

[1]
You instinctively push aside uke's right arm with your right arm. While doing so your right forearm "accidentally" (or naturally?) slips over uke's right arm.

[2]
At this point you're pushing it aside rightward but as you do that, you also have a natural tendency to push it downward.

[3]
It is at this point that you may realize that, in a "close combat" setting (sorry for the funny wording, Englihs is not my native lang), ukes hand is spontaneously going under your right armpit.

[4]
At this point I realize i can trap uke's arm there and I close my armpit.

[5]
Doing that motion my right arm has now performed a 360 degrees rotation around uke's arm: I find myself back to position [0] but with a significant change: uke's hand is locked under my armpit and my arm has rotated around uke's arm so now: his right hand under my armpit, my right bicep on the inner side of uke's right arm, my right forearm on the outward side of uke's arm.

[6]
The back of my hand is against uke's elbow, his right hand trapped under my armpit. You realize immediately there is a leverage there, if you exert pressure with your right hand.
Do exert such pressure. (you may call in your left and to aid your right hand). Imageine you have no time to think, you feel there is an opportunity and yous seize it.

[7]
NOW do tenkan - no matter what else. Do it.
Uke will rotate with you and will be projected forward on his knees.

Alberto_Italiano
05-01-2011, 09:47 AM
http://s177.photobucket.com/albums/w204/fullposter/?action=view&current=IMG020-1.jpg

I hope this poor quality image helps. This is a frugally rebuild image of the final arm lock (this round made with the left arm, because my silly camera couldn't make the photo better than in that position). If from that situation you step forward and you tenkan, your hand will exert pressure on uke's locked arm and bring him down.

This may work only: right arm traps right arm, or left arm traps left arm.

mathewjgano
05-01-2011, 11:07 AM
http://s177.photobucket.com/albums/w204/fullposter/?action=view&current=IMG020-1.jpg

I hope this poor quality image helps. This is a frugally rebuild image of the final arm lock (this round made with the left arm, because my silly camera couldn't make the photo better than in that position). If from that situation you step forward and you tenkan, your hand will exert pressure on uke's locked arm and bring him down.

This may work only: right arm traps right arm, or left arm traps left arm.

When you tenkan (right hand to right hand) do you float uke's right side up before dropping to his knees? What you're describing of uke reminds me a version of soto kaiten I've practiced. Does uke end up facing you at the end of the drop or is uke's body rotated away from you similar to shihonage ukemi?

Alberto_Italiano
05-01-2011, 01:59 PM
Matthew, the strange fact with this technique is that once I was doing it, it seemed to call itself. If you do it, once set in the photo position, tenkan comes out as the most natural thing to do.

However, I want first to address once again Graham's point. he is right inasmuch as you don't dodge blows by lowering in Aikido - however:
1) it came out in a situation where the "hyper" controlled setting of a dojo was not there - one just reacts naturally and one of the most natural things to do when you see incoming stuff, is to dodge. Then, you have to arrange your Aikido accordingly to your natural reaction in a real situation, because real ukes don't accommodate you.
2) despite I first met this "technique" by dodging, thinking about it now, you can probably place this technique also in avariety of different situations - most of them fully "aikido-compliant".

To answer Matthew, once I realized I had his hand and bottle under my armpit and my right hand was placed like my left one in the photo, i sensed immediately there was an ongoing leverage. I applied pressure with my right hand on his elbow (in that real situation, also my left hand came to rescue adding its own pressure joining my right hand, as if I were "praying").

Tenkan seemed the most natural thing to do as I was placing that pressure (sort of an ikkyo done with one arm only, sort of).

So I:
1) placed pressure on uke's elbow, in the imaginary straight line going to my right 2) tenkan, and this yielded a CLOSE contact with uke's back 3) another thing that came spontaneously to do, was to bend down a bit, so to have a straight pressure matched with a downward pressure (we had downward a diagonal, basically) matched with a tenkan rotation.

the effect is that you find yourself on uke's side and uke is projected in front of you, groping with his free left arm sensing he is falling face down. Once you exert also the downward pressure (something that you will do naturally once your tenkan is completed), he falls on his knees (or at least this is what happened).

I have to practice it in a dojo again, but in that situation uke was not lifted (though you are right, matthew: you could also lift), he was projected while his right hand was secured under my armpit.

He fell without facing me. I was on top of him, he giving me his back, as when you are doing an ikkyo, only this seemed more effective than an ikkyo.

Keeping his hand locked under your armpit and keeping the pressure on his elbow, you can place your left hand on his shoulder to keep him down. He made some goofy attempt to stand back but apparently it was not possibile for him. I could feel I had a firm grasp and a still working leverage. I kept him there maybe less than 10 seconds then security staff took over.

Maybe it' s more of an Hapkido thing?
It surely exist in some martial art, it came out as something very natural once you feel your right arm clashing against uke's right arm: you SPIN your arm around it, and if you step forward to grab his hand under your armpit (in my situation it slapped there by itself, thence I realized I had an opportunity), you're set.

uke falls showing to you his back, his arm still secured, "wrapped" around yours.

zivk
05-02-2011, 12:52 AM
I second Eva Röben's suggestion of the technique called hijikime. From reading Alberto Italiano's description it seems that there are possibly several points of resemblance, e.g.,
his hand trapped under my right armpit... pressure with my right forearm against his elbow, adding to it the pressure of my left hand, his hand still trapped under my armpit... Uke is on his knees nearly immediately and I find myself placed in a very convenient position.

Here's are a couple of link to Hiroshi Tada sensei (9th dan, aikikai) in the last phase of this technique:

http://www.aikikai.it/aikinosu/aikido/LaSpezia2004/Hiji01.JPG
http://www.aikikai.it/aikinosu/aikido/LaSpezia2006/Sp06-34.jpg

Abasan
05-02-2011, 01:11 AM
Hmm..

A right hook comes, you weave under and a typical boxer counter punch would have come from a straight. Instead, you parry starting from uke's outside and wrapping around his hand bringing it into your arm pit with your hand placed against his elbow.

You then tenkan on your left feet to bring him to his knees.

From your armpit lock, uke should be able to elbow you and free himself. But with 2 hands then this can transition into either ikkyo or hijiate. Except hijiate is typically done with the opposite hand locking on the elbow.

In any case I've seen this done in systema often from a straight punch but again on the opposite hand.

I do it too but without ducking. Cutting the hooking elbow with your forearm and bringing it across and downwards, you'll bend uke's elbow and typically turn him around with his neck conveniently accessible to your left hand. Not sure if that is relevant but its not something I'll do against a boxers hook though.

Michael Varin
05-02-2011, 05:27 AM
Alberto is not describing the conventional rokkyo or hijijime. What he is describing is more of a variation on what I would call mai otoshi.

The pressure on the elbow is coming from underneith.The "eye" of the elbow is pointing up, not down as it would be in rokkyo/hijijime.

SmilingNage
05-02-2011, 07:29 AM
I envision it as either a kata katame or ude garame gone slightly eschew.

chillzATL
05-02-2011, 07:51 AM
we would probably just lump it in as an ude osae or maybe a waki gatame.

Kevin Morrison
05-02-2011, 10:28 AM
The universal answer to "what's this called" is "it depends who you're talking to". Sankyo, kote hineri, outer palm lock, straight wrist forearm hyper pronation are approximately the same thing but you change the label depending on the audience.

The position you describe is natural but there are several factors effecting what and how we practise in aikido. The naming system reflects this focus in our training.
To illustrate this point, we don't give specific names to the myriad of hold down used on a opponent on their back because we usually pin are partner on their front. Judo is the opposite with names for back down but not belly down pins.
Aikido doesn't have all the answers, let alone convenient ways of referencing the answers, because it hasn't been asked all the questions.

Personally I'd call the position you described a "long distance arm drag arm bar" or "that position Alberto described on aikiweb." If I was forced to shoe horn it into an aikido label I'd go with hije kime.

ps the postion has been refined and studied in wrestling to taking the shoulder instead of the elbow. I'd use the label that those who are most competent at it use.

Alberto_Italiano
05-02-2011, 02:33 PM
I have found something that looks like what happened:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2d4xAwQNTU

On my browser the technique begins at minute 00.44 and ends at 00.50

However there is a significant difference: the video ends with uke facing tori because tori, facing uke, seems to exert the pressure leftwise.
BTW I think you can notice in the end that uke's hand is trapped under tori's armpit. That's what happend, yet in my instance uke's hand was trapped there nearly since the beginning.

In my case I exerted my pressure rightwise, and it ended with uke showing me his back.

This is the closest I have been able to find on a video, till now. Not identical but maybe this gives an idea of what I meant by saying it seemed to me like an Ikkyo done with one arm only.

Alberto_Italiano
05-02-2011, 02:41 PM
Ok, still mentioning that video, at those minutes, I think I worked out what is the real difference - it was too fast in the video to appreciate immediately.

In the video uke spins his right arm around uke's right arm from up down and spins around anti-clockwise.
I span from down up, clockwise.

I think this is why i saw uks's back all the time, while in the video tori always faces uke.

Michael Varin
05-03-2011, 02:46 AM
In the video uke spins his right arm around uke's right arm from up down and spins around anti-clockwise.
I span from down up, clockwise.

I think this is why i saw uks's back all the time, while in the video tori always faces uke.

The technique from the hapikido video works on more of a kote gaeshi/shiho nage principle.

That is not the sense that I got when I first read the description of "your technique."

Take a look at this video of a rapping [sic] elbow lock (I don't think spelling is his strong point!).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=No4EZZqwZgw

This is what I was invisioning. Except, of course, in "your tecnique" it is right arm on right arm, and was in response to a yokomen uchi-type strike. You would find yourself standing on the outside/back of uke after the initial blend.

In this position you can see how the off hand (left in your case) could assist with adding pressure to the lock.

The only problem I have with "your technique" is still the fact that you tenkan out of that position which seems awkward to me. But hey, if it works...

Now watch this video of mae otoshi, especially 0:14.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSLzoIhSsPs

Was the application of "your technique" similar to this? Maybe uke didn't take a forward roll in your situation, but that is the way I imagined you applying the technique.

That is why, based on your description, I would say "your technique" is a variation of mae otoshi.

Alberto_Italiano
05-03-2011, 10:17 AM
Hi Michael

the first video is the closest to what happened, only as in the video I proposed earlier, they still "spin" their arm around uke's arm so that the eventual pressure is exerted from the inside of uke's arm. In my case it was exerted on the OUTSIDE.

If you do it on the outside, tenkan comes natural to you because it seems exactly the right thing to do to exploit the point of leverage - with "my" version it is impossible to bump into uke as you tenkan.

Get somebody have his straight right arm placed static (for demonstration purposes) in front of you.

Raise your right arm to hit his right elbow from down. Your right elbow is now placed nearly in front of ukle's face, while your right hand is placed in front of your own face.
Now push uke's arm aside _rightward_ (you are the point of reference for "rightward") - you are now on uke's right side as if you were doing an ikkyo.

Keep rolling your hand inside and keep rolling outside until you have your right hand on his elbow once again - his hand will slap under your armpit - if it doesn't, it just means you need to step slightly forward (irimi a bit).

Now you're set to tenkan: your tenkan will not be impeded by uke's body (as it would be if one does the technique as in the videos), because you're lateral to uke, on his right side and you are seeing his back. You have free way to tenkan sliding along his back, and it is the leverage plus the tenkan what makes the projection.

I have tried it in a gym (not a dojo yet) with a friend and it worked exactly as expected. I also told my friend to do that technique on me, the leverage and projection was immediate and yes, I could not stand back.

I know it is odd that such a thing had to came out from a "real" situation, out of an instinctive behaviour, and it is certainly funny that the only techniques close to it that you see on videos look like it but spin the arm counter-clockwise whereas I did clockwise.

However, I'd like to add that it is so effective, that if you can reproduce it, it is probably going to become one of your techniques of election.

Despite in my case it happened by "accident" under sort of a yokomenuchi, you can apply it in a variety of situations.

I regret I can't have a video of it. The videos you post are close, only they end up facing uke, which makes tenkan impossibile. "My" version seems better exactly inasmuch as it allows a prefect tenkan namely gives to tori the opportuity of exploiting leverage AND projection via the tenkan tangent force.

If you can reproduce it, it's worth the effort. It's very effective, you have one free arm to do whatever you want, and you see uke's back all the time so you have full control and uke has no chance of using his other arm against you or to grab you as he falls.

Sorry to be so "boring" with these descriptions, but eveidently it seems difficult, without a video, to explain "my" variation and how tenkan is the obvious thing to do next. It works so well that it's a pity not to give it a try.

Alberto_Italiano
01-04-2012, 01:53 AM
I get the sense that when Alberto is finished with his entry/blend that he is still facing opposite uke and the arm bar style lock on the elbow is coming from below, right arm on right arm. That is not rokkyo.

The problem I'm having is visualizing the tenkan from that position.

I could be way off base.

This is why videos help so much.

Ok I managed to get some video of this apparently unkown technique. I am sorry it is still a simulation but at least the movement can be seen clearly:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZXeP0OPyn0
You may skip all the initial blabber and move right to minute 2:15 where the actual illustration begins (or, more exactly at 3:30, though at 2:15 it is explained what that homemade training device is, in case anyone wonders).
Since I first found it out, I have tried it in several trainings with actual ukes and it invariably works very well (main setback, as far as i can see: absolutely not to try against an armed hand).

roadtoad
02-29-2012, 07:19 PM
I take it you really mean that you block with your left arm.
No, that technique is from eagle style kung-fu.
Its very effective, but not aikido

roadtoad
03-07-2012, 10:17 AM
Sorry, I meant eagle claw style kung fu.
Of course, it still could be aikido, because o'sensei claimed aikido has about 14,000 techniques, and I've only seen about 300 of them.

Tom Verhoeven
03-20-2012, 01:05 PM
I envision it as either a kata katame or ude garame gone slightly eschew.
I thought he described ude garami. But ude garami is done with both hands and in the second description it says it is only done with the right arm.

The last bit sounds like hiji jime or may be ude nobashi.

Scott Harrington
03-21-2012, 02:57 PM
The technique you have 'stumbled' on comes from the 3rd section of the Hiden Mokuroku of the mainline Daito ryu school under the late Takeda Tokimune sensei.

It is called waki garama and is initally done from a single collar grab from the rear. I'm not going to look it up but I think it's a variation of shuto zume which starts from a frontal attack. Both involve wrapping the arm and then pressing the locked elbow down.

These waza can be found on the Seishikan video / dvd's thru www.Budovideos.com Just remember that Takeda Tokimune reorganized the Hiden Mokuroku so they may fit slightly different into the curriculum to older Daito ryu. Ask someone who studies DR for more info, I'm just a curious Aikido guy.

As you view more of the techniques of DR in video, you realize 1) they pretty much threw everything in the technique bag and 2) there isn't anything new (if you go looking far enough) under the sun.

When I started breaking out of the 'mold' of the limited Yoshinkan curriculum, I started coming up with 'new' stuff. Sure enough, I soon discovered this or that in other systems of Aikido or Daito ryu tapes.

Now, it's great to experiment, and there are always new applications of old waza. I always say that Aikido holds alot of the jigsaw pieces of DR but you have to go looking for the corners and the center pieces.

Scott Harrington

ryback
03-22-2012, 04:53 AM
The technique from the hapikido video works on more of a kote gaeshi/shiho nage principle.

That is not the sense that I got when I first read the description of "your technique."

I agree that the principles behind the technique in this video are those of a kote gaeshi\shiho nage combination,that's what i thought.And i also didn't get that sense when i read the description in any of the posts.In my opinion,if i got it right sounds like the technique that came spontaneously is more of a Rokkyo Tenkan variation where you lock the hand under your armpit instead of locking it in your own hand using kote mawasi.But you can also say that it has a Juji nage "flavour" in it since you "cross" your arm against his elbow from the outside in order to pressure to the direction it actually breaks.It could also have a bit of a Nikkyo in it depending on where the trapped under the armpit hand faces.If the little finger looks upward instead of the thumb, then i think i can see a little bit of Nikkyo in there as well.On the other hand maybe i got it all wrong...Haha! :)