Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

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[ewolput]

In 1967 Tadashi Abe was criticism the Aikikai for the way of the teaching. I had lost its roots and became effeminate.
In 1969 Kenji Tomiki gave a interview to Black Belt Magazine and was criticism Aikikai and he said "Aikikai lost many of the practical advantages that jujutsu possessed"
It is rather uncommon to criticism your teacher, and in the case of Tadashi Abe, quite rude. And in that time Morihei Ueshiba was still alive.
Maybe some of you have similar facts about students of Morihei Ueshiba?
When I started aikido more than 40yrs ago, Ueshiba was put forward as a kind of superman/god. And such a criticism was a capital sin. With the years the image of Morihei Ueshiba changed from superman to a normal person with very big martial capabilities.

Eddy Wolput
http://tomiki-aikido.wikispaces.com/Study+Group+Tomiki+Aikido

[Tony Wagstaffe]

In 1967 Tadashi Abe was criticism the Aikikai for the way of the teaching. I had lost its roots and became effeminate.
In 1969 Kenji Tomiki gave a interview to Black Belt Magazine and was criticism Aikikai and he said "Aikikai lost many of the practical advantages that jujutsu possessed"
It is rather uncommon to criticism your teacher, and in the case of Tadashi Abe, quite rude. And in that time Morihei Ueshiba was still alive.
Maybe some of you have similar facts about students of Morihei Ueshiba?
When I started aikido more than 40yrs ago, Ueshiba was put forward as a kind of superman/god. And such a criticism was a capital sin. With the years the image of Morihei Ueshiba changed from superman to a normal person with very big martial capabilities.

Eddy Wolput
http://tomiki-aikido.wikispaces.com/Study+Group+Tomiki+Aikido

Eddy, I sometimes wonder whether Proff Ueshiba has been too pedestalled and now the truth is gradually coming out? I've no doubt that he possessed great skills as did his uchideshi in their own ways, some better than others, some not so...? Being biased if you like, I also felt that Tomiki Shihan was being rational, more than most and was not into inflating other peoples abilities but experiencing something fascinating as well as "normal" in his eyes, but hard to understand until he got "it" ?
I think we all have that quest with in us to try and find out by real experience rather than going through the "motions" so to speak. Maybe that's the problem today with many thinking there is some "mystical" power? I've a rational hunch it isn't so, but rather precise knowledge and practise in what at first seemed impossible, like the first minute mile by athlete Roger Bannister....? You tell me....:)

[SeiserL]

I've a rational hunch it isn't so, but rather precise knowledge and practise in what at first seemed impossible, like the first minute mile by athlete Roger Bannister....? You tell me....:)
Yes agreed.

We tend to be in awe of things we have never seen before and are unaware of. Its magic or the act of Gods.

With further study, knowledge, and insight, they are the acts of very skilled humans.

Perhaps its a cultural thing to not criticize or to openly criticize.

Yet, IMHO, if we are not opened to being questioned then we already fear the answer.

Thoughts?

[Hellis]

In 1967 Tadashi Abe was criticism the Aikikai for the way of the teaching. I had lost its roots and became effeminate.
In 1969 Kenji Tomiki gave a interview to Black Belt Magazine and was criticism Aikikai and he said "Aikikai lost many of the practical advantages that jujutsu possessed"
It is rather uncommon to criticism your teacher, and in the case of Tadashi Abe, quite rude. And in that time Morihei Ueshiba was still alive.
Maybe some of you have similar facts about students of Morihei Ueshiba?
When I started aikido more than 40yrs ago, Ueshiba was put forward as a kind of superman/god. And such a criticism was a capital sin. With the years the image of Morihei Ueshiba changed from superman to a normal person with very big martial capabilities.

Eddy Wolput
http://tomiki-aikido.wikispaces.com/Study+Group+Tomiki+Aikido

Eddy

In the 1950s I don't believe that we looked on OSensei as a superman / god - I would say he was certainly revered...I would add that of all the early Japanese Budo masters that I met in the 1950/60s none were more more loyal to OSensei than Tadashi Abe Sensei - I remember when he went back to Japan....he visited the Hombu Dojo - he was shocked at what he saw being practiced in the name of Aikido, he apologised to all the ladies in the dojo, stating that the Aikido he was seeing was Aikido for women.

Tadashi Abe must have felt very strongly over what he considered conveyor belt Aikido, he threw his diploma's on the mat and stormed out....

Without criticism many men have become gods and dictators who act like gods...OSensei was admired and respected by Tadashi Abe - Kenshiro Abe - M Nakazono - M Noro - TK Chiba, all these teachers referred to him as an exceptional man.

Henry Ellis
Tadashi Abe
http://tadashi-abe.blogspot.com/

[JW]

It is rather uncommon to criticism your teacher, and in the case of Tadashi Abe, quite rude. And in that time Morihei Ueshiba was still alive.

It sounds to me like Henry Ellis put it, he was separating in his mind the Aikikai and his teacher, Ueshiba sensei. In his position, I think it certainly would be important to criticize the aikikai as he did, if he did not feel it was doing correct aikido.


Aikikai lost many of the practical advantages that jujutsu possessed

I think this is an interesting point. If O-sensei really wanted to produce masters of jujutsu, he would have easily made it so. His teacher was one, and as I understand, he was quite "effective" too. But I think part of his vision may have been:
Without being an expert in how to fight, dominate, or destroy, one can still be free from harm by doing aiki.

If he believed in this way, then that could help explain why he didn't insist on making others into jujutsu technicians. If those in the aikikai didn't understand what he did want, then they might think that the lack of emphasis on jujutsu technique meant that Ueshiba wanted soft, flowy movements.

So in different ways, Abe and the aikikai may both have been partially "right."

[Tony Wagstaffe]

Yes agreed.

We tend to be in awe of things we have never seen before and are unaware of. Its magic or the act of Gods.

With further study, knowledge, and insight, they are the acts of very skilled humans.

Perhaps its a cultural thing to not criticize or to openly criticize.

Yet, IMHO, if we are not opened to being questioned then we already fear the answer.

Thoughts?

Yehaaaay!!:D

[Tony Wagstaffe]

It sounds to me like Henry Ellis put it, he was separating in his mind the Aikikai and his teacher, Ueshiba sensei. In his position, I think it certainly would be important to criticize the aikikai as he did, if he did not feel it was doing correct aikido.

I think this is an interesting point. If O-sensei really wanted to produce masters of jujutsu, he would have easily made it so. His teacher was one, and as I understand, he was quite "effective" too. But I think part of his vision may have been:
Without being an expert in how to fight, dominate, or destroy, one can still be free from harm by doing aiki.

If he believed in this way, then that could help explain why he didn't insist on making others into jujutsu technicians. If those in the aikikai didn't understand what he did want, then they might think that the lack of emphasis on jujutsu technique meant that Ueshiba wanted soft, flowy movements.

So in different ways, Abe and the aikikai may both have been partially "right."

I don't buy that, when you see what the Iwama style is like, Nothing jujutsu like there ....?

[RonRagusa]

Yes agreed.

We tend to be in awe of things we have never seen before and are unaware of. Its magic or the act of Gods.

With further study, knowledge, and insight, they are the acts of very skilled humans.

Perhaps its a cultural thing to not criticize or to openly criticize.

Yet, IMHO, if we are not opened to being questioned then we already fear the answer.

Thoughts?

Hi Lynn -

There's a difference between questioning and criticizing.

Questioning can be used to enhance the knowledge of both questioner and questioned alike and so performs the role of an evolutionary catalyst in the advancement of the body of knowledge regarding the subject at hand. Honest questioning of a teacher by a student is an indication that both teacher and student are doing their jobs. Questioning is a mechanism for eliciting information.

Criticism stops discussion in its tracks. Critic and and criticized become wedded to their positions and any hope of meaningful discussion is lost as participants dig in their heels in support of their positions. The critic enters the discussion with conclusions already formulated and is primarily interested in scoring points. The one being criticized is immediately put on the defensive. Thus the lines are drawn and trench warfare usually ensues and nothing gets resolved.

Best,

Ron

[sakumeikan]

It sounds to me like Henry Ellis put it, he was separating in his mind the Aikikai and his teacher, Ueshiba sensei. In his position, I think it certainly would be important to criticize the aikikai as he did, if he did not feel it was doing correct aikido.

I think this is an interesting point. If O-sensei really wanted to produce masters of jujutsu, he would have easily made it so. His teacher was one, and as I understand, he was quite "effective" too. But I think part of his vision may have been:
Without being an expert in how to fight, dominate, or destroy, one can still be free from harm by doing aiki.

If he believed in this way, then that could help explain why he didn't insist on making others into jujutsu technicians. If those in the aikikai didn't understand what he did want, then they might think that the lack of emphasis on jujutsu technique meant that Ueshiba wanted soft, flowy movements.

So in different ways, Abe and the aikikai may both have been partially "right."
Dear Jonathan,
It is difficult to ascertain what the students of O Sensei may or may not have wanted aikido to be after O Sensei passed away.
From my own experience I can certainly state that in my training under a well known Shihan the movements and execution of waza exhibited were anything but soft. Flowing yes, powerful yes, martial yes-soft absolutely no.
Cheers, Joe.

[JW]

Hi Joe and Tony-
Tony, if I understand you right, I think you are saying there is heavy amounts of jujutsu in Ueshiba's teachings, based on Iwama curriculum. I came from Iwama background, so I know a bit of what they do. And I know what they don't normally do-- that only took meeting a couple of folks who are good with jujutsu.

Iwama aikido consists of waza that are supposed to have continuous aiki, plus a couple joint locks thrown in.
That is very different from having LOTS of jujutsu skill.

Even just compare this Takumakai vid (www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6sZSC66ul4) with aikido-- similar roots for sure. And we don't need to discuss how "good" the guys in this vid are. My point is only: if you are like Hisa Takuma, wanting to do jujutsu with aiki, you can do a lot more to someone than we do in aikido.

Anyway, my whole point was regarding what Tadashi Abe said, and why he might have said it (and see above, it was apparently in regard to Hombu not Iwama anyway). I thought maybe he was saying "you guys are being wimpy" because people were practicing flowing movements instead of kicking a$$. I am saying, he is right that they weren't being tough as can be. And maybe that was on purpose. Do I think those deshi are good, and tough guys, yes they could beat me up, but I am not Tadashi Abe!

And Joe, I hope this explains what I meant better. Basically:
-what did Abe mean
-was he correct in saying that
-and even if he was, does that mean only his way was the right way?

[Carsten Möllering]

...
Even just compare this Takumakai vid (www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6sZSC66ul4) with aikido-- similar roots for sure. And we don't need to discuss how "good" the guys in this vid are. My point is only: if you are like Hisa Takuma, wanting to do jujutsu with aiki, you can do a lot more to someone than we do in aikido.
Don't you do work like this from time to time in your dojo?
I recognize a lot of things we practice sometimes.
Not as "part of the curriculum" but as "possibilities" or "application" or just for better understanding.

[ewolput]

In the early 60ties the influence of Tadashi Abe and also Aritoshi Murashige was very strong in aikido circles in Belgium. That kind of aikido is (or was) just straight to the point and very different from mainstream Aikikai aikido these days.
In case of Tomiki, he put forward in that article : The Aikikai did a mistake by dropping such key training methods as randori (from jujutsu).
"This is the Hombu's greatest mistake because free practice permits you to prepare yourself for any eventuality, every possible move an attacker might make"
This is not a discussion about "is aikido strong selfdefense?", but it is a search for people who spoke with a load critical voice about the direction of training in Aikikai when Morihei Ueshiba was still the living example of the "institute Aikikai"
In the 1976 when I was practising in Shizuoka at Korindo dojo, it was totally different from the training at the Hombu in Tokyo. At the Korindo in Shizuoka I had the chance to practice with high level instructors and this was really training. In the Hombu, I tried to practice with high level people, and some man, he became a famous shihan later, said to me "it is too hot to practice" and went to the side and stopped training. This never happened in Shizuoka.
I can understand the critisism of Abe and Tomiki, they only saw some kind of a "martial dance" which lacked the seriousness of the martial art Aikido.

Eddy

[Hellis]

Dear Jonathan,
It is difficult to ascertain what the students of O Sensei may or may not have wanted aikido to be after O Sensei passed away.
From my own experience I can certainly state that in my training under a well known Shihan the movements and execution of waza exhibited were anything but soft. Flowing yes, powerful yes, martial yes-soft absolutely no.
Cheers, Joe.

Hi Joe

After the incident at the Hombu dojo it is my understanding that Tadashi Abe never ever went back. I had told Chiba Sensei that Abe Sensei was a teacher we had all admired, Chiba Sensei replied " Tadashi Abe Sensei has always been my hero " .

When people ask about the Aikido of OSensei - all that is left from that era is what we have from the treasures that were direct students of OSensei - The ones I trained with were all excellent - powerful and hard , yet, their Aikido was different, just as they themselves were.
I speak of K Abbe - T Abe - M Nakazono - M Noro - H Ichumura - N Tamura - TK Chiba - H Tada - their signatures were different but the message was the same..

Henry Ellis
Aikido Controversy
http://aikido-controversy.blogspot.com/

[sakumeikan]

Hi Joe

After the incident at the Hombu dojo it is my understanding that Tadashi Abe never ever went back. I had told Chiba Sensei that Abe Sensei was a teacher we had all admired, Chiba Sensei replied " Tadashi Abe Sensei has always been my hero " .

When people ask about the Aikido of OSensei - all that is left from that era is what we have from the treasures that were direct students of OSensei - The ones I trained with were all excellent - powerful and hard , yet, their Aikido was different, just as they themselves were.
I speak of K Abbe - T Abe - M Nakazono - M Noro - H Ichumura - N Tamura - TK Chiba - H Tada - their signatures were different but the message was the same..

Henry Ellis
Aikido Controversy
http://aikido-controversy.blogspot.com/
Dear Henry,
Yes indeed-these men are /were true Budo masters.
Cheers, Joe

[Tony Wagstaffe]

In the early 60ties the influence of Tadashi Abe and also Aritoshi Murashige was very strong in aikido circles in Belgium. That kind of aikido is (or was) just straight to the point and very different from mainstream Aikikai aikido these days.
In case of Tomiki, he put forward in that article : The Aikikai did a mistake by dropping such key training methods as randori (from jujutsu).
"This is the Hombu's greatest mistake because free practice permits you to prepare yourself for any eventuality, every possible move an attacker might make"
This is not a discussion about "is aikido strong selfdefense?", but it is a search for people who spoke with a load critical voice about the direction of training in Aikikai when Morihei Ueshiba was still the living example of the "institute Aikikai"
In the 1976 when I was practising in Shizuoka at Korindo dojo, it was totally different from the training at the Hombu in Tokyo. At the Korindo in Shizuoka I had the chance to practice with high level instructors and this was really training. In the Hombu, I tried to practice with high level people, and some man, he became a famous shihan later, said to me "it is too hot to practice" and went to the side and stopped training. This never happened in Shizuoka.
I can understand the critisism of Abe and Tomiki, they only saw some kind of a "martial dance" which lacked the seriousness of the martial art Aikido.

Eddy

It was too hot to practice? Now that says something does it not? I motor better when I'm hot, If I don't work up a really good sweat, I feel I have not done enough.... I think I know when I'm exhausted my muscles tremble and go all weak till recovery, but what a buzz....
All the body aches and pains go away for a few hours at least, then it all comes back.... seize up and then you have to move again to get the oil moving round..... do that thousands of times and one gets used to it, unless you stop....... fatal..:dead:

[Walter Martindale]

It was too hot to practice? Now that says something does it not? I motor better when I'm hot, If I don't work up a really good sweat, I feel I have not done enough.... I think I know when I'm exhausted my muscles tremble and go all weak till recovery, but what a buzz....
All the body aches and pains go away for a few hours at least, then it all comes back.... seize up and then you have to move again to get the oil moving round..... do that thousands of times and one gets used to it, unless you stop....... fatal..:dead:

I guess that if you practice each and every day, you can choose, if you like, whether or not 'today' is too hot and to sit out, but, frankly, I don't work that way. If you show up to the training venue, TRAIN.

Maybe not as long as normal, maybe not as hard as normal, but do it for crying in the mud... If, as you say, only to get a sweat going and to loosen up all the corrosion that sets in if you don't keep active.

I speak as someone who currently is starting to seize up from lack of Aikido practices in the last few months. The sessions take place when I'm at work...

On an interesting note - I met the sensei in the local dojo yesterday - he's a school teacher at the collegiate where I was giving an all-day rowing clinic - I'd heard the name but wasn't in Aikido mind and suddenly - hey, wait... aren't you the Aikido sensei? The :ai: :ki: :do: on his sleeve for the p.e. class he was giving helped clue me in...
W

[sorokod]

The quote from the Black Belt Magazine is somewhat out of context, here is the link to the original article:

http://books.google.com/books?id=Ls4DAAAAMBAJ&lpg=PA7&as_pt=MAGAZINES&pg=PA40#v=onepage&q&f=false

[ewolput]

Both, Abe and Tomiki are questioning the training system at the Aikikai in that time, each from their point of view.Both they noticed a lack of "something".
This is a debate also about what some people from other martial arts think about contemporary aikido. It is not my intention to open again this debate in this thread.
I am just curious if other old students of Morihei Ueshiba also have such a critisism. Those old students were well respected in the world of martial arts and some of them created their own system.
Why?

Eddy

[Hellis]

The quote from the Black Belt Magazine is somewhat out of context, here is the link to the original article:

http://books.google.com/books?id=Ls4DAAAAMBAJ&lpg=PA7&as_pt=MAGAZINES&pg=PA40#v=onepage&q&f=false

David

I took a look at the Black Belt link, seeing the photo of Tatsuo Suzuki Sensei on the front cover brought back memories, he had recently arrived in London. this reminded me of a demonstration I did at the BJC National Judo Championships at Crystal Palace London early 1960s.. I had been asked by Kenshiro Abbe Sensei to do the Aikido demonstration, as usual we never planned anything ( I could never remember set stuff ) and took the demo `` as it comes `` It got nasty and it was a tough one with blood and snot to add a little colour.....just the way we liked it :straightf

As we walked to the edge of the mat, my assistant Derek Eastman whispered out loud - " look out Sensei, Suzuki Sensei looks angry and is storming over here " - he looked angry as he stepped right in front of me preventing me stepping off the mat, I thought " Oh sh!t , we have overdone it this time " ---- His facial expression did not change as he said "" Mr Ellis , thank you, that is the best demonstartion of Aikido I have ever seen " - he then turned and walked away..........He must have said the same to Abbe Sensei because Abbe Sensei smiled and nodded his approval...........just memories.

Henry Ellis
Aikido Controversy
http://aikido-controversy.blogspot.com/

[Tony Wagstaffe]

I think Henry has answered that one in one honest post....

I have always felt the same way as Tomiki Sensei and many of his students, that aikido is not just for health, it is self defence primarily in my book and will stay THAT WAY until I die..... What ever happens after that will not concern me, but I fear the worst.....:straightf

[sorokod]

This might be relevant

http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=34

[ewolput]

Recently I discovered a movie of Senta Yamada about 20 minutes, filmed late fifties somewhere in Japan. Senta Yamada was a judoka but also an experienced aikido teacher. He was a student of Kenji Tomiki and Morihei Ueshiba. He traveled a lot with Ueshiba and was for a period an uchideshi.The movie showed many aikidotechniques and if you compare them with people of about the same age like Tadashi Abe, or if we compare it with the movie Judo taiso of Kenji Tomiki, we only can say this is the same aikido and the origin is with Morihei ueshiba. If we compare the movie of Tomiki and Yamada with the prewar movie of Ueshiba or with the books Budo and Budo Renshu, we only can say this is almost the same. Somewhere in the late fifties and sixties, mainstream aikido changed a lot, and only a few groups kept the old teachings of Morihei Ueshiba.

Eddy

[sorokod]

Recently I discovered a movie of Senta Yamada about 20 minutes, filmed late fifties somewhere in Japan. Senta Yamada was a judoka but also an experienced aikido teacher. He was a student of Kenji Tomiki and Morihei Ueshiba. He traveled a lot with Ueshiba and was for a period an uchideshi.The movie showed many aikidotechniques and if you compare them with people of about the same age like Tadashi Abe, or if we compare it with the movie Judo taiso of Kenji Tomiki, we only can say this is the same aikido and the origin is with Morihei ueshiba. If we compare the movie of Tomiki and Yamada with the prewar movie of Ueshiba or with the books Budo and Budo Renshu, we only can say this is almost the same. Somewhere in the late fifties and sixties, mainstream aikido changed a lot, and only a few groups kept the old teachings of Morihei Ueshiba.

Eddy

Could you post a link to that video?

[Nicholas Eschenbruch]

... Somewhere in the late fifties and sixties, mainstream aikido changed a lot, and only a few groups kept the old teachings of Morihei Ueshiba.

Eddy

So, in your interpretation, who exactly are these few groups and what exactly are these old teachings? And what makes them so distinct from what everybody else (supposedly) does?

[ewolput]

Yamada's movie is in a dvd produced by Hal Sharp, judoka, and the main title of the DVD is Fukko Judo by Tadayuki Satoh. Someone gaave me the DVD, I don't know where to buy.

In Tomiki Aikido, the old Ueshiba teachings are kept alive in what is called Koryu no kata, which is basically old prewar teachings from Ueshiba.
Also Iwama style has some original teachings.
In Minoru Mochizuki Yoseikan aikido you can find original prewar teachning........

Maybe others can add more

[Gorgeous George]

In Tomiki Aikido, the old Ueshiba teachings are kept alive in what is called Koryu no kata, which is basically old prewar teachings from Ueshiba.
Also Iwama style has some original teachings.
In Minoru Mochizuki Yoseikan aikido you can find original prewar teachning........

Maybe others can add more

Aikido didn't exist, pre-war, did it...?

As for the criticisms of the Aikikai, aren't the sources very important? - i.e., I have heard Chiba sensei - a man most respected by at least a few contributors here - once remarked that Tomiki sensei 'Missed the point' of aikido; and I think I recall anecdotes about Tadashi Abe which I read here, talking about him lamenting his missed opportunity to be a suicide bomber during WWII; carrying a knife with him - to give to other people when he got in a fight; and being expelled from France because he kept starting fights.

If that's pre-war aikido, I can't wait 'til it's well and truly dead.

[ewolput]

Henry Ellis wrote :
After the incident at the Hombu dojo it is my understanding that Tadashi Abe never ever went back. I had told Chiba Sensei that Abe Sensei was a teacher we had all admired, Chiba Sensei replied " Tadashi Abe Sensei has always been my hero " .

And about Tomiki Sensei, he was a shihan at the Aikikai in the fifties, Chiba started aikido in 1958 after Tomiki Sensei formulated his aiki randori method which was not well accepted by the Aikikai. Chiba can have critisim on the randori method but saying he missed the point...... what point?

And Aikido started after the war and nothing before??

[Hellis]

OSensei named his martial art Aikido in 1942 if I recall ?
He named it - he didn't find it in a cupboard.......he had been developing the art for many years...

Tadashi Abe left France to deal with an urgent / serious problem involving his family business.

Henry Ellis
Aikido Controversy
http://aikido-controversy.blogspot.com/

[Demetrio Cereijo]

OSensei named his martial art Aikido in 1942 if I recall ?

"I was the Director of General Affairs of the Kobukan beginning around 1942 and I helped out Ueshiba Sensei in daily matters. “Aikido,” rather than being a specifically selected name, was the term used to refer to “Butokukai-Ryu” aiki budo within the Dai Nippon Butokukai. The headquarters of the Dai Nippon Butokukai was located in Kyoto and Butokuden centers were set up in all prefectures. Tatsuo Hisatomi from the Kodokan, and Shohei Fujinuma from kendo, were close friends of mine. The Butokukai was an independent, umbrella organization for the martial arts, and it also was in charge of martial arts in the police departments.
...
In other words, the term “aikido” was a cover-all term that could include other things as well. Mr. Hisatomi’s idea was to intentionally select a name that would not be opposed by kendo or other martial arts, but rather an inoffensive, comprehensive term to group together all of the yawara schools. In the end, no one opposed this proposal."

Minoru Hirai in http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=87

Bold mine

[Tony Wagstaffe]

"I was the Director of General Affairs of the Kobukan beginning around 1942 and I helped out Ueshiba Sensei in daily matters. "Aikido," rather than being a specifically selected name, was the term used to refer to "Butokukai-Ryu" aiki budo within the Dai Nippon Butokukai. The headquarters of the Dai Nippon Butokukai was located in Kyoto and Butokuden centers were set up in all prefectures. Tatsuo Hisatomi from the Kodokan, and Shohei Fujinuma from kendo, were close friends of mine. The Butokukai was an independent, umbrella organization for the martial arts, and it also was in charge of martial arts in the police departments.
...
In other words, the term "aikido" was a cover-all term that could include other things as well. Mr. Hisatomi's idea was to intentionally select a name that would not be opposed by kendo or other martial arts, but rather an inoffensive, comprehensive term to group together all of the yawara schools. In the end, no one opposed this proposal."

Minoru Hirai in http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=87

Bold mine

So we can say that the word "aikido" can encompass all martial arts....? sounds good to me....

[Tony Wagstaffe]

Aikido didn't exist, pre-war, did it...?

As for the criticisms of the Aikikai, aren't the sources very important? - i.e., I have heard Chiba sensei - a man most respected by at least a few contributors here - once remarked that Tomiki sensei 'Missed the point' of aikido; and I think I recall anecdotes about Tadashi Abe which I read here, talking about him lamenting his missed opportunity to be a suicide bomber during WWII; carrying a knife with him - to give to other people when he got in a fight; and being expelled from France because he kept starting fights.

If that's pre-war aikido, I can't wait 'til it's well and truly dead.

Some would say that the majority of present day aikido is already dead......:rolleyes:

[Mary Eastland]

And some would say Aikido is alive and well!

[Tony Wagstaffe]

And some would say Aikido is alive and well!

As dance yes......

[Chris Li]

As dance yes......

And what did Yoshimitsu Minamoto base Daito-ryu on?

Best,

Chris

[Gorgeous George]

And what did Yoshimitsu Minamoto base Daito-ryu on?

Best,

Chris

Haha. As someone with even a cursory understanding of the history of aikido would know...
I was going to mention this, too. :)

As much as some aikido might have neglected martial intent for connection/softness, I think that is the heart of aikido, and makes aiki possible, and I think too many 'martial' people - including some present here - have no idea what aiki is, as they don't know what it is to be soft/not tense.

How can you be in harmony/yield when you have such an ego, and discord between yourself and others...?

[L. Camejo]

And what did Yoshimitsu Minamoto base Daito-ryu on?

Really? I remember this concept being questioned by Ellis Amdur in Hidden in Plain Sight.

Here is an article on Aikidojournal that is in the same light - http://www.aikidojournal.com/?id=2702

As Ellis states in the article:

Tokimune then arrives at Shinra Saburo Minamoto no (Genji) Yoshimitsu, one of those culture heroes that appear in any country, an apparently universal man who is then claimed by numerous groups in future generations. Tokimune asserts, "This Yoshimitsu served in the Emperor's court and was said to have been a strong Sumo wrestler… . He was also an expert performer on the free-reed mouth organ and often played this instrument to traditional dances performed at the court. He realized that there was in the elegance and suppleness of these dance, certain formlessness without openings, which allowed numerous permutations. He made additions to the secret methods of the Genji tradition and formalized the secret techniques of Aiki."

The addition of the subtleties of court dance resembles the paradoxical myths in Chinese martial arts where one observes, for example, the stately movements of a crane, or the quick extensions of the arm of gibbons, and achieves an essential insight into a system of bodily organization. What he is suggesting here, however, is that this addition enabled Saigo Shinra to distill kuzushi into something even more subtle and refined, like brandy from wine. Without this addition, we would merely be talking about sumo, which permeated Japanese martial culture, and one could therefore claim this history for just about any jujutsu school.

Although this makes a quite dramatic metaphor, we have no evidence of this whatsoever, and if there is any resemblence between the enigmatic gagaku of 1000 years ago with Daito-ryu today, it is hidden deep within the esoteria of the school, certainly not something that has ever been presented publicly. (And by the way, before anyone gets excited about this idea, take a look and listen to gagaku - it is both musically and physically the most eerie, otherworldly music and dance, making Noh as accessible as the fox trot in comparison.

In essence, Takeda Tokimune seems to be superimposing a shadow history over the standard history of sumo and jujutsu, as if it exists like the white spaces between the letters on a page. He is, I believe, trying to make history conform to Daito-ryu, not the other way around. Nowhere is this "shoe-horning" more apparent than in the assertion that Yoshimitsu was called Saburo Daito, after living at the mansion of Daito in Oe. This may well be true, but Daito-ryu was not even called by that appellation until Yoshida Kotaro pointed out to Takeda Sokaku that the kanji for what he had then named Yamato-ryu were more properly read as Daito-ryu. The naming of the system seems to have had nothing to do with Shinra Saburo. I would wager that Mr. Takeda, attempting to research the origins of his father's art went as far back through his own family's history as he could (without leaving Japan itself), and finding Saburo Daito, an archetypal father of Japanese grappling, chose to believe that he had found a link.

Shinra Saburo was an ancestor of the Takeda clan, although with a thousand years of separation, he was probably the ancestor of most of the Japanese population, in one way or another. From this ur-father, Tokimune asserts that Daito-ryu continued to be passed down within the Imperial family through its Minamoto branch, and then into one offshoot, the Takeda clan
Emphasis above is mine.

Imho the Yoshimitsu Minamoto dance Aiki link is an interesting concept but where is the evidence to support it. Sometimes History is really just His Story :)

Regardless of whether Yoshimitsu Minamoto had an effect on what became S. Takeda's Daito Ryu, the evidence states that what Takeda did and taught as DRJJ was designed for combat or fighting. This is what Ueshiba M. learnt from him as well and is what he did up to the 1930's.

What happened later as "Aikido" is another story.

Just some thoughts.

LC

[L. Camejo]

As much as some aikido might have neglected martial intent for connection/softness, I think that is the heart of aikido, and makes aiki possible, and I think too many 'martial' people - including some present here - have no idea what aiki is, as they don't know what it is to be soft/not tense.

How can you be in harmony/yield when you have such an ego, and discord between yourself and others...?Funny you say that Graham.

From my experience, those who really know Aiki and can execute it do not exhibit the ego and discord that you are referring to. There is also no loss of connection or softness where needed.

So the question may be "what are you referring to as Aiki"? I was lucky to be part of some recent research that pretty much concludes that no more than a handful (meaning 5 or so) of Ueshiba M.'s earliest students were even taught anything about Aiki by him, and by the postwar period he simply did not teach it openly anymore, you had to steal it.

In Daito Ryu and by extension Ueshiba's Aikibudo and early Aikido, Aiki is considered a tactical combative concept embodied in the techniques. This existed long before the re-codification of the concept to match the popular post-WWII "Art of Love" slogan imho.

Just a few thoughts.

LC

[Chris Li]

Really? I remember this concept being questioned by Ellis Amdur in Hidden in Plain Sight.


Sure, I read the book, I'm even cited in the acknowledgements, although I'm not sure why...

I wonder if Morihei Ueshiba would denigrate dance - he taught many dancers, some of them quite well known (http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%B0%BE%E4%B8%8A%E8%8F%8A%E4%BA%94%E9%83%8E_%286%E4%BB%A3%E7%9B%AE%29).

Anyway, I think that you might be surprised how much faster dancers often pick up Aiki.

Best,

Chris

[L. Camejo]

Sure, I read the book, I'm even cited in the acknowledgements, although I'm not sure why...

I wonder if Morihei Ueshiba would denigrate dance - he taught many dancers, some of them quite well known (http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%B0%BE%E4%B8%8A%E8%8F%8A%E4%BA%94%E9%83%8E_%286%E4%BB%A3%E7%9B%AE%29).

Anyway, I think that you might be surprised how much faster dancers often pick up Aiki.
Well I don't think anyone here is denigrating dance Chris. I'm merely questioning the real facts behind the popular story.

I agree with you that dancers pick up Aiki faster. But imho this has more to do with the individual's coordination and understanding of how their mind and body operates so it does not only apply to dancers but gymnasts, judoka, ppl who do yoga and anyone who does a lot of choreography from my experience.

Just some thoughts.

LC

[Chris Li]

Well I don't think anyone here is denigrating dance Chris. I'm merely questioning the real facts behind the popular story.

I agree with you that dancers pick up Aiki faster. But imho this has more to do with the individual's coordination and understanding of how their mind and body operates so it does not only apply to dancers but gymnasts, judoka, ppl who do yoga and anyone who does a lot of choreography from my experience.

Just some thoughts.

LC

Oh, I wasn't talking about you ;) . Anyway, myth or not, AFAIK Ueshiba believed the story.

Best,

Chris

[Tony Wagstaffe]

Well I don't think anyone here is denigrating dance Chris. I'm merely questioning the real facts behind the popular story.

I agree with you that dancers pick up Aiki faster. But imho this has more to do with the individual's coordination and understanding of how their mind and body operates so it does not only apply to dancers but gymnasts, judoka, ppl who do yoga and anyone who does a lot of choreography from my experience.

Just some thoughts.

LC

I used to love dancing, still do if I get the opportunity... shake that booty and quiver man!!!! :D :hypno: :eek: :cool:
Use it or lose it as the saying goes. I also think there is a certain amount of genetics involved to.... Some are more "blessed" than others I find.....

[Chris Li]

I used to love dancing, still do if I get the opportunity... shake that booty and quiver man!!!! :D :hypno: :eek: :cool:
Use it or lose it as the saying goes. I also think there is a certain amount of genetics involved to.... Some are more "blessed" than others I find.....

Apparently Tomiki was quite interested in ballroom dancing - I met his instructor once. He also did randori to music.

Best,

Chris

[Tony Wagstaffe]

Apparently Tomiki was quite interested in ballroom dancing - I met his instructor once. He also did randori to music.

Best,

Chris

It develops good footwork and good coordination, with a partner who is harmonising but it's as far as it goes from a martial standpoint, when your partner becomes an assailant things change rapidly....:straightf

[Tony Wagstaffe]

Apparently Tomiki was quite interested in ballroom dancing - I met his instructor once. He also did randori to music.

Best,

Chris

What his instructor or Tomiki? What was it ? Housewife's choice? 1812 ? Or hip hop? :D

[Chris Li]

What his instructor or Tomiki? What was it ? Housewife's choice? 1812 ? Or hip hop? :D

Tomiki.

Chris

[Ellis Amdur]

I made some real changes in the book HIPS from the AJ articles. One distinction concerns the passage you are citing re dance. The internal training elements from Chinese martial practices are all, broadly speaking, Shaolin-based. Please note that these can be of extremely high level, BUT the particular type of subtle technique/power attributed to Takeda, Ueshiba seems to be closer to that of xingyi, t'ai chi, etc.
One theory, of course, is that Takeda developed (reinvented the wheel) this on his own. Why not? Somebody(s) else did it before, or we wouldn't have the skills.
If it had been passed down, generation after generation before him, however, then there was a) some other unnamed genius b) the Japanese learned it from somewhere. Since there is this claim in the tradition regarding bugaku (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFErNl3FvM4&feature=related), [click link]I mentioned that this does deserve a harder look. NOT, of course, that in these stately movements is hidden a martial practice (like Morris dance:rolleyes: )
However, look at the body control of this over 1000 year old style of dance, the opening-closing movements. Noh (http://www.youtube.com/watch? Consider also v=JqoGHKIthS4&feature=related), a much later development of Japanese dance. Body control and a meticulous attention of methods of breathing is part of Noh practice.
To be sure, all of this seems very far from the aikido of Abe and Chiba, for two examples, or the rugged jujutsu of the Takumakai. However, I suggest in HIPS that it is possible, that a detailed study of the types of physical training in bugaku may reveal similarities to some of the training methods within DR.
In short, IF the skills of the top masters came from somewhere, rather than a creation of Takeda Sokaku, and it wasn't from Chinese martial arts imported in the 16th century, perhaps DR lore about dance may hold a clue.
Ellis Amdur

[Gerardo Torres]

In Tomiki Aikido, the old Ueshiba teachings are kept alive in what is called Koryu no kata, which is basically old prewar teachings from Ueshiba.
Also Iwama style has some original teachings.
In Minoru Mochizuki Yoseikan aikido you can find original prewar teachning........


Hello,

Can you please explain what are these "old Ueshiba teachings" that are present in these three styles (Iwama, Tomiki, Yoseikan) but not present (?) in other styles?

[Tony Wagstaffe]

Hello,

Can you please explain what are these "old Ueshiba teachings" that are present in these three styles (Iwama, Tomiki, Yoseikan) but not present (?) in other styles?

My slant on this is all to do with one's posture and how to achieve a strong posture which some refer to as centring. One can see this in dance as well as many other physical disciplines. It's not just MA that have this. It's funny to note that many dance forms actually evolved from martial action, so no great discovery there..... One has to be relaxed to achieve strong posture, the trick is to make it work under real pressure.....
I doubt that Tomiki Sensei had music to tanto randori in the dojo, or aikido practice perse, although he may have been adept at the ballroom stuff..... Maybe he liked listening to music while he worked?
Who doesn't...?

[Chris Li]

I doubt that Tomiki Sensei had music to tanto randori in the dojo, or aikido practice perse, although he may have been adept at the ballroom stuff..... Maybe he liked listening to music while he worked?
Who doesn't...?

He would do it a little like musical chairs. People would do randori to music and had to throw at the moment that the music stopped. Or so I was told by his ballroom dance instructor - who received a 6th dan directly from Tomiki.

Best,

Chris

[Tony Wagstaffe]

He would do it a little like musical chairs. People would do randori to music and had to throw at the moment that the music stopped. Or so I was told by his ballroom dance instructor - who received a 6th dan directly from Tomiki.

Best,

Chris

Has anyone else heard of this? I'll ask somebody I know when I get to see him..... He was a direct student of Tomiki and Ohba Sensei's so it would be interesting to hear it from him.....

[Gorgeous George]

Hello,

Can you please explain what are these "old Ueshiba teachings" that are present in these three styles (Iwama, Tomiki, Yoseikan) but not present (?) in other styles?

This is a good, interesting question, as I seem to recall somebody on here mentioning how Tomiki sensei conceived solo exercises (practicing the movement of the tegatana, I believe) while captive in Siberia, post-WWII, and how O'sensei was less than impressed when shown them...

And on the subject of Tadashi Abe: somebody related the story of how he once dismissed O'sensei's ability, saying to Mochizuki sensei I think, something like he was vulnerable...so Mochizuki told him to attack him however he liked (presumably because he regarded O'sensei as of superior ability, so if he couldn't beat him, he'd have no chance against O'sensei...); he did, Mochizuki countered with a kick, and Abe was defeated.
He then expressed astonishment, exclaiming 'There are no kicks in aikido!', to which Mochizuki replied that was a ridiculous view, as 'I have done aikido with artillery/munitions during the war...'.

I'm pretty sure it was those two men in the story; it was in a thread here not too long ago...

[ewolput]

When Tomiki was a war prisoner in Russia he developed "solo" exercises based on the use of "tegatana". But it is a mistake to say he deviced the solo exercises when he was a prisoner, because already in Manchuria when he was lecturing at the university during the war, he wrote a paper about a training system for aikijutsu.
We also have to understand that those solo exercises are only a part of a much broader system based on atemi waza and kansetsu waza from the aikijutsu Ueshiba taught him (and also Hideo Ohba his lifelong assistent). In the early fifties, Tomiki called this system Judo Taiso sometimes also Yawara Taiso. The purpose of this system was to introduce judo people of Waseda University to aikido.This Judo Taiso is basically Tandoku Undo (solo exercises) and Sotai Undo (paired exercises). He called it Judo Taiso because in his thinking Judo is not alone the throwing and hold down techniques. But Judo has to be a complete Budo which includes aikijutsu.
If you like to know more about his way of thinking please visit :
http://waseda-aikido.com/history-e/index.html
You also can consult "old and new" Tomiki Aikido books in Japanese and English on :
http://tomiki-aikido.wikispaces.com/home
There is a studygroup in Europe which is researching on these early post war teachings of Tomiki and its relationship with prewar teachings of Ueshiba.

Eddy

[Demetrio Cereijo]

Tomiki sensei conceived solo exercises (practicing the movement of the tegatana, I believe) while captive in Siberia, post-WWII, and how O'sensei was less than impressed when shown them...

Tomiki's Judo Taisho:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPhG6XA2fL8

And on the subject of Tadashi Abe: somebody related the story of how he once dismissed O'sensei's ability, saying to Mochizuki sensei I think, something like he was vulnerable...

Mochizuki and Abe:
http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=369

[Gerardo Torres]

When Tomiki was a war prisoner in Russia he developed "solo" exercises based on the use of "tegatana". But it is a mistake to say he deviced the solo exercises when he was a prisoner, because already in Manchuria when he was lecturing at the university during the war, he wrote a paper about a training system for aikijutsu.
We also have to understand that those solo exercises are only a part of a much broader system based on atemi waza and kansetsu waza from the aikijutsu Ueshiba taught him (and also Hideo Ohba his lifelong assistent). In the early fifties, Tomiki called this system Judo Taiso sometimes also Yawara Taiso. The purpose of this system was to introduce judo people of Waseda University to aikido.This Judo Taiso is basically Tandoku Undo (solo exercises) and Sotai Undo (paired exercises). He called it Judo Taiso because in his thinking Judo is not alone the throwing and hold down techniques. But Judo has to be a complete Budo which includes aikijutsu.
If you like to know more about his way of thinking please visit :
http://waseda-aikido.com/history-e/index.html
You also can consult "old and new" Tomiki Aikido books in Japanese and English on :
http://tomiki-aikido.wikispaces.com/home
There is a studygroup in Europe which is researching on these early post war teachings of Tomiki and its relationship with prewar teachings of Ueshiba.

Eddy
So, do these exercises (based on "old Ueshiba teachings" as you say) help develop the type of aiki and internal power in Ueshiba's aikido? (I couldn't tell from the links and video)

[Tony Wagstaffe]

So, do these exercises (based on "old Ueshiba teachings" as you say) help develop the type of aiki and internal power in Ueshiba's aikido? (I couldn't tell from the links and video)

Only one way to find out........

[Gerardo Torres]

Only one way to find out........
Actually, there's more than one way to find out. For example, the person who started this thread could explain right here how these "old Ueshiba teachings" present in some aikido styles (one of them his own I suppose) lead to Ueshiba's aiki and IP. It should be easy, don't you think?

[hughrbeyer]

I started out studying Tomiki Aikido, and we practiced the Tandoku Undo exercises as a regular thing. More recently I've been learning internal aiki techniques from people who are working with Dan Harden, primarily my own sensei (Bill Gleason). I hate making absolute statements--maybe my Tomiki dojo didn't get it, or maybe I didn't get it--but I see no similarity at all between the two. I see more parallels between DH's aiki principles and baguazhang than with Tomiki.

[L. Camejo]

I hate making absolute statements--maybe my Tomiki dojo didn't get it, or maybe I didn't get it--but I see no similarity at all between the two. I see more parallels between DH's aiki principles and baguazhang than with Tomiki.I'm not surprised :) A lot of people don't get these things unless they know what to look for within the most mundane looking practices and drills. There is a reason why the "warm ups", Taiso and basic exercises are done every class.

The thing is people focus a lot on what the exercises look like when it is really all about what is happening inside your body and your awareness of it. I won't be surprised if a lot of folks training in Tomiki Aikido have no idea what the Taiso and basics developed by Tomiki are really all about and what they are a template for. Most people focus on technique and sport, not the advanced mind/body connection stuff.

Just some thoughts.

LC

[Tony Wagstaffe]

I'm not surprised :) A lot of people don't get these things unless they know what to look for within the most mundane looking practices and drills. There is a reason why the "warm ups", Taiso and basic exercises are done every class.

The thing is people focus a lot on what the exercises look like when it is really all about what is happening inside your body and your awareness of it. I won't be surprised if a lot of folks training in Tomiki Aikido have no idea what the Taiso and basics developed by Tomiki are really all about and what they are a template for. Most people focus on technique and sport, not the advanced mind/body connection stuff.

Just some thoughts.

LC

;)

[ewolput]

In 1956 Kenji Tomiki explained the word Aikido :
“The old saying goes - it is in the spirit that carries the mind and controls the body- The people of ancient times believed that man’s mind and body and consequently his strenght were under control of the spirit. Aiki means making your spirit “fit in” with your opponent’s. In other words it means bringing your movements into accord with your opponent’s. After all it means the same thing as the “principle of gentleness”, for it is an explanation of the principle from within.”

In 2005, Teruo Fujiwara wrote a paper about Judo Taiso (student of Kenji Tomiki in the fifties)
The Tandoku Undo are exercises to develop good posture and balance. The judo principle shizentai-no--ri is clearly expressed in these excercises. In these exercises the use of the handblade is a reflection of the many aiki-jutsu atemiwaza and kansetsuwaza. We cannot deny the influence of swordmanship in the use of the handblade (tegatana). The Sotai Undo are exercises which uses the kuzushi-no-ri principle of judo (breaking balance principle). In these exercises the use of good posture, proper balance, correct movement and use of the handblade are further explored. Basically we can say the sotai undo are breaking balance excercises by using the handblade.

In 1966, Senta Yamada wrote a book about aikido and explained the basic principles, Senta Yamada was a student of Morihei Ueshiba and Kenji Tomiki. He was a very nice gentleman, his judo and aikido was soft and flexible with a strenght which came from the inside. He always said : there are only 5 basic movements to study, if you don’t understand these movements we cannot start with the study of Judo and Aikido.
Those 5 basic movements are the core of Tandoku Undo and Sotai Undo.

And now what about Ueshiba’s aiki and IP. Kenji Tomiki was Ushiba’s student from 1926.
He was a member of the teaching staff of the Aiki Kai Hombu dojo through the late 1950s. Kenji Tomiki must have the chance to see and to feel the internal power of Ueshiba.
I spoke with several students of Kenji Tomiki and they told me about the strength from within they felt when he was applying a technique. One of his students, Tadayuki Satoh is teaching now the relationship between judo and aikido according the principles Tomiki taught him. There are a lot of similarities between aikido and some judo kata (koshiki no kata, ju no kata, .....). In admiral Takeshita diaries there are many remarks which lead to techniques developed by Kodokan Judo (for example different forms of hiki otoshi)
Some years ago, dr Lee ah Loi made a remark about the way some people are doing Unsoku and Tandoku undo. The message was: the way most people are doing their unsoku and tandoku undo is just gymnastic and will not lead to a better understanding of Tomiki’s aikido - and then she start to explain how to do.
With unsoku, tandoku undo and sotai undo we can develop the priciples of shizentai no ri, ju no ri and kuzushi no ri, which are the basic principles of Tomiki’s aikido and also judo.
After understanding these principles we can start with different forms of randori and koryu no kata. For some of use we have the chance to enter competition and have first hand expierence and find out the answer to the question : do I have a good posture, is my movement in accordance with the opponent and do I have the strenght of kuzushi. Winning or losing is not the primary factor in shiai.
In Tomiki’s aikido we never talk about internal power, but we try to develop and apply the basic principles. Those who are not satisfied with their aikido are looking around to find some magical power to control the opponent. But maybe if you look more deeper into your aikido training system you will find the answer.
Once they asked Senta Yamada to teach Goshin jitsu no kata, he refused because they didn’t understand the basic principles. Of course during the seminar he explained some techniques from this kata which is based on aiki jutsu.

The old teachings of Morihei Ueshiba are preserved in the Koryu no kata, a set of about 150 techniques. Some of them almost identical with techniques in Budo Renshu (1933) and Budo (1938). Some of the techniques have a different origin. Kenji Tomiki and Hideo Ohba studied with Ueshiba and Kano and were exposed to many other budo.
For example, Hideo Ohba studied iai with Junichi Haga.
There are 6 kata divided into smaller sets. Most popular are the koryu no kata dai san (goshin no kata) and koryu no kata dai yon (kuzushi no kata).
Without the basic principles, those kata become like a dance without the strenght to control the opponent.

Who is this fellow who wrote this note ? I studied with Hideo Ohba and many old students of Tomiki sensei, also I studied with Hirokazu Kobayashi from Osaka.
I know what I am teaching my students, basic principles and it works... some of them entered shiai in Japan and showed the strength of Tomiki’s aikido from within.
In shiai there are people who studied not only aikido but also judo, sambo, brazilian jujutsu...Some of them are also entering K1 fights. But they are attracted to Tomiki’s Aikido shiai. One day you have to enter shiai and show your controlled internal power.

[Tony Wagstaffe]

In 1956 Kenji Tomiki explained the word Aikido :
"The old saying goes - it is in the spirit that carries the mind and controls the body- The people of ancient times believed that man's mind and body and consequently his strenght were under control of the spirit. Aiki means making your spirit "fit in" with your opponent's. In other words it means bringing your movements into accord with your opponent's. After all it means the same thing as the "principle of gentleness", for it is an explanation of the principle from within."

In 2005, Teruo Fujiwara wrote a paper about Judo Taiso (student of Kenji Tomiki in the fifties)
The Tandoku Undo are exercises to develop good posture and balance. The judo principle shizentai-no--ri is clearly expressed in these excercises. In these exercises the use of the handblade is a reflection of the many aiki-jutsu atemiwaza and kansetsuwaza. We cannot deny the influence of swordmanship in the use of the handblade (tegatana). The Sotai Undo are exercises which uses the kuzushi-no-ri principle of judo (breaking balance principle). In these exercises the use of good posture, proper balance, correct movement and use of the handblade are further explored. Basically we can say the sotai undo are breaking balance excercises by using the handblade.

In 1966, Senta Yamada wrote a book about aikido and explained the basic principles, Senta Yamada was a student of Morihei Ueshiba and Kenji Tomiki. He was a very nice gentleman, his judo and aikido was soft and flexible with a strenght which came from the inside. He always said : there are only 5 basic movements to study, if you don't understand these movements we cannot start with the study of Judo and Aikido.
Those 5 basic movements are the core of Tandoku Undo and Sotai Undo.

And now what about Ueshiba's aiki and IP. Kenji Tomiki was Ushiba's student from 1926.
He was a member of the teaching staff of the Aiki Kai Hombu dojo through the late 1950s. Kenji Tomiki must have the chance to see and to feel the internal power of Ueshiba.
I spoke with several students of Kenji Tomiki and they told me about the strength from within they felt when he was applying a technique. One of his students, Tadayuki Satoh is teaching now the relationship between judo and aikido according the principles Tomiki taught him. There are a lot of similarities between aikido and some judo kata (koshiki no kata, ju no kata, .....). In admiral Takeshita diaries there are many remarks which lead to techniques developed by Kodokan Judo (for example different forms of hiki otoshi)
Some years ago, dr Lee ah Loi made a remark about the way some people are doing Unsoku and Tandoku undo. The message was: the way most people are doing their unsoku and tandoku undo is just gymnastic and will not lead to a better understanding of Tomiki's aikido - and then she start to explain how to do.
With unsoku, tandoku undo and sotai undo we can develop the priciples of shizentai no ri, ju no ri and kuzushi no ri, which are the basic principles of Tomiki's aikido and also judo.
After understanding these principles we can start with different forms of randori and koryu no kata. For some of use we have the chance to enter competition and have first hand expierence and find out the answer to the question : do I have a good posture, is my movement in accordance with the opponent and do I have the strenght of kuzushi. Winning or losing is not the primary factor in shiai.
In Tomiki's aikido we never talk about internal power, but we try to develop and apply the basic principles. Those who are not satisfied with their aikido are looking around to find some magical power to control the opponent. But maybe if you look more deeper into your aikido training system you will find the answer.
Once they asked Senta Yamada to teach Goshin jitsu no kata, he refused because they didn't understand the basic principles. Of course during the seminar he explained some techniques from this kata which is based on aiki jutsu.

The old teachings of Morihei Ueshiba are preserved in the Koryu no kata, a set of about 150 techniques. Some of them almost identical with techniques in Budo Renshu (1933) and Budo (1938). Some of the techniques have a different origin. Kenji Tomiki and Hideo Ohba studied with Ueshiba and Kano and were exposed to many other budo.
For example, Hideo Ohba studied iai with Junichi Haga.
There are 6 kata divided into smaller sets. Most popular are the koryu no kata dai san (goshin no kata) and koryu no kata dai yon (kuzushi no kata).
Without the basic principles, those kata become like a dance without the strenght to control the opponent.

Who is this fellow who wrote this note ? I studied with Hideo Ohba and many old students of Tomiki sensei, also I studied with Hirokazu Kobayashi from Osaka.
I know what I am teaching my students, basic principles and it works... some of them entered shiai in Japan and showed the strength of Tomiki's aikido from within.
In shiai there are people who studied not only aikido but also judo, sambo, brazilian jujutsu...Some of them are also entering K1 fights. But they are attracted to Tomiki's Aikido shiai. One day you have to enter shiai and show your controlled internal power.

Hear Hear!!!!! :)

[Tony Wagstaffe]

This is a good, interesting question, as I seem to recall somebody on here mentioning how Tomiki sensei conceived solo exercises (practicing the movement of the tegatana, I believe) while captive in Siberia, post-WWII, and how O'sensei was less than impressed when shown them...

I would suspect that Proff Ueshiba had realised that Tomiki Sensei had cottoned onto what Ueshiba was doing through his own research and Ueshiba had realised that Tomiki had stolen his "knowledge".... He was known to be a little "funny" about that when he told Tohei that Aikido was his.... According to Tohei he could be a little immature over some things..... It seems Tohei had it as did some others pre war, after that is where it seems to have gone a bit askew.
Lets face it, Takeda Sensei was in some ways let down and angry with Ueshiba after changing the techniques that he taught as Daito ryu... somewhere along the ways their rift got past the point of no return....
My own opinion is Tomiki Sensei had put together a condensed form of Daito ryu with Judo influence....
What happened after Tomiki's departure from the Aikikai is history and the biggest mistake the Aikikai ever made.....

[Gerardo Torres]

Eddy, thank you for the detailed response.

You quoted some teachers saying that Aikikai had "lost the roots of aikido" and elaborated that some pre-War styles such as Tomiki kept these roots through exercises based on "old Ueshiba teachings". I consider myself a beginner, so I asked what these old teachings were. Finally you explained what is developed by these exercises: good posture (shisei), affect balance (kuzushi) and "harmonizing/movement in accordance with opponent". These are pretty much the same principles that every teacher from different styles and organizations I've trained with -- including Aikikai shihan -- teach. In fact, I have NOT, ever, trained with a qualified Aikikai shihan who did not emphasize these principles in their teaching. I have not heard of any aikido style that does not put a strong emphasis on these basic principles.

We cannot deny the influence of swordmanship in the use of the handblade (tegatana).

Use of tegatana and relationship with the sword is common-ground teaching of almost every Aikikai shihan I've trained with. It's also a common teaching tool in other aikido styles as far as I know.

Some years ago, dr Lee ah Loi made a remark about the way some people are doing Unsoku and Tandoku undo. The message was: the way most people are doing their unsoku and tandoku undo is just gymnastic and will not lead to a better understanding of Tomiki's aikido - and then she start to explain how to do.

In other words, some people do it right and get it, some don't -- sounds like the exact same situation in every single aikido style I know of.

As for "practice the basic forms (kata) for many years and you'll get it (maybe)" -- pretty much the same mantra of every Aikido style out there.

In Tomiki's aikido we never talk about internal power, but we try to develop and apply the basic principles. Those who are not satisfied with their aikido are looking around to find some magical power to control the opponent.

Internal power is not a "magical power". It's a real, physical condition of the body that allows for efficient martial application. Aiki/IP is what made Ueshiba's aikido work the way it did. Tomiki felt it from Ueshiba, you say so in your post. If you don't want to talk about it, that's your prerogative.

One day you have to enter shiai and show your controlled internal power.

I'm a beginner, Eddy, I've never claimed to have or know anything. My only reason to post here is to get information that can help me. I wanted YOU to tell me about internal power and aiki -- the root abilities of Ueshiba's aikido and presumably what he taught Tomiki, Tohei, Shioda, etc. in the pre-War days . I thought this is what you referred to when you said "old Ueshiba teachings". But since you think it's a "magical power" I guess I should direct my questions elsewhere.

[Tony Wagstaffe]

Eddy, thank you for the detailed response.

You quoted some teachers saying that Aikikai had "lost the roots of aikido" and elaborated that some pre-War styles such as Tomiki kept these roots through exercises based on "old Ueshiba teachings". I consider myself a beginner, so I asked what these old teachings were. Finally you explained what is developed by these exercises: good posture (shisei), affect balance (kuzushi) and "harmonizing/movement in accordance with opponent". These are pretty much the same principles that every teacher from different styles and organizations I've trained with -- including Aikikai shihan -- teach. In fact, I have NOT, ever, trained with a qualified Aikikai shihan who did not emphasize these principles in their teaching. I have not heard of any aikido style that does not put a strong emphasis on these basic principles.

Use of tegatana and relationship with the sword is common-ground teaching of almost every Aikikai shihan I've trained with. It's also a common teaching tool in other aikido styles as far as I know.

In other words, some people do it right and get it, some don't -- sounds like the exact same situation in every single aikido style I know of.

As for "practice the basic forms (kata) for many years and you'll get it (maybe)" -- pretty much the same mantra of every Aikido style out there.

Internal power is not a "magical power". It's a real, physical condition of the body that allows for efficient martial application. Aiki/IP is what made Ueshiba's aikido work the way it did. Tomiki felt it from Ueshiba, you say so in your post. If you don't want to talk about it, that's your prerogative.

I'm a beginner, Eddy, I've never claimed to have or know anything. My only reason to post here is to get information that can help me. I wanted YOU to tell me about internal power and aiki -- the root abilities of Ueshiba's aikido and presumably what he taught Tomiki, Tohei, Shioda, etc. in the pre-War days . I thought this is what you referred to when you said "old Ueshiba teachings". But since you think it's a "magical power" I guess I should direct my questions elsewhere.

He's already told you Gerardo........:)
Maybe study the Tomiki system and you will find out, the secret is in the basics and kihon. Constant study of the Koryu katas and the junanna kihon coupled with the solo exercises of tandoku undo and onsuku, also partaking in randori shiai will direct you to that conclusion. If you are still looking for some kind of magical power you are deluding yourself, it does not exist believe it.... Consider that all or most Shihan studied judo or other martial arts before doing aikido..... They had the core strength or "IP" if you want to call it that, before starting aikido....
I have studied and tried other systems including aikikai or "soft" systems and it has no semblance to what I found in Tomiki ryu..... Of course you will say I am biased, but that is your choice.....

[DH]

I started out studying Tomiki Aikido, and we practiced the Tandoku Undo exercises as a regular thing. More recently I've been learning internal aiki techniques from people who are working with Dan Harden, primarily my own sensei (Bill Gleason). I hate making absolute statements--maybe my Tomiki dojo didn't get it, or maybe I didn't get it--but I see no similarity at all between the two. I see more parallels between DH's aiki principles and baguazhang than with Tomiki.
Hello Hugh!!
Just to be more clear, I have heard things like this from Taiji, Bagua, Xing-I, Aikido Ki society, Koryu adepts, Goju,Uechi ryu, etc. Not my concern. I just do what I do.
To date the people who not only "saw things" in what I was doing, but could also pick up and do things the quickest were from Koryu and Daito ryu....hmm....

As for Aikido,...so far it has been my own experience that all the aikido community is doing is essentially fooling themselves that they are doing Ueshiba's aiki. For the most part, both in feel, in video, and in writing, the main stream is obviously deeply immersed in Kisshomaru's Aikido™ whether they know it or not.. The fact that aikido-ka cannot acknowledge all the testimony of Ueshiba's pushing and being pushed and the goals and how to's of various exercies from so many different sources, and why it mattered so much in developing the body to produce IP/aiki.. speaks volumes of their own ignorance of their art and the founders path.
As a talking point, anyone who espouses such ignorance of the practices of the founder should be a disqualifier from the start. It should speak for itself. The fact that it does not....also speaks volumes of the state of things and why so many of its shihan have so little power.

The students of the offshoots; Tohei, Tomiki, Shioda,,Shirata, Mochizuki, have some very big shoes to fill. Do you think the modern adepts of these branches have developed any better than mainstream Aikido™ ?

In the fullness of time, I think history will record the early years under Ueshiba; from the late thirties to forties as great years and they will be bookended with the time period perhaps ten years from now...when more people have developed IP/aiki and begin to do aiki....do.
With everything in between, including the present age, being greatly discounted as a wrong direction the art took due to many inept and poorly trained teachers that were sent out from Japan in the sixties and onward.
I think westerners are going to fix the art, and not the Japanese.
I don't really think the Japanese know how. The westerners who insist on putting a "Japanese face" on the art are going to be self evident.
Just say'n
Dan

[Gorgeous George]

Hello Hugh!!
Just to be more clear, I have heard things like this from Taiji, Bagua, Xing-I, Aikido Ki society, Koryu adepts, Goju,Uechi ryu, etc. Not my concern. I just do what I do.
To date the people who not only "saw things" in what I was doing, but could also pick up and do things the quickest were from Koryu and Daito ryu....hmm....

As for Aikido,...so far it has been my own experience that all the aikido community is doing is essentially fooling themselves that they are doing Ueshiba's aiki. For the most part, both in feel, in video, and in writing, the main stream is obviously deeply immersed in Kisshomaru's Aikido™ whether they know it or not.. The fact that aikido-ka cannot acknowledge all the testimony of Ueshiba's pushing and being pushed and the goals and how to's of various exercies from so many different sources, and why it mattered so much in developing the body to produce IP/aiki.. speaks volumes of their own ignorance of their art and the founders path.
As a talking point, anyone who espouses such ignorance of the practices of the founder should be a disqualifier from the start. It should speak for itself. The fact that it does not....also speaks volumes of the state of things and why so many of its shihan have so little power.

The students of the offshoots; Tohei, Tomiki, Shioda,,Shirata, Mochizuki, have some very big shoes to fill. Do you think the modern adepts of these branches have developed any better than mainstream Aikido™ ?

In the fullness of time, I think history will record the early years under Ueshiba; from the late thirties to forties as great years and they will be bookended with the time period perhaps ten years from now...when more people have developed IP/aiki and begin to do aiki....do.
With everything in between, including the present age, being greatly discounted as a wrong direction the art took due to many inept and poorly trained teachers that were sent out from Japan in the sixties and onward.
I think westerners are going to fix the art, and not the Japanese.
I don't really think the Japanese know how. The westerners who insist on putting a "Japanese face" on the art are going to be self evident.
Just say'n
Dan

Interesting.
What do you think of Seigo Yamaguchi, and those continuing his approach?

[DH]

He's already told you Gerardo........:)
Maybe study the Tomiki system and you will find out, the secret is in the basics and kihon. Constant study of the Koryu katas and the junanna kihon coupled with the solo exercises of tandoku undo and onsuku, also partaking in randori shiai will direct you to that conclusion. If you are still looking for some kind of magical power you are deluding yourself, it does not exist believe it.... Consider that all or most Shihan studied judo or other martial arts before doing aikido..... They had the core strength or "IP" if you want to call it that, before starting aikido....
I have studied and tried other systems including aikikai or "soft" systems and it has no semblance to what I found in Tomiki ryu..... Of course you will say I am biased, but that is your choice.....
Actually once again you are talking down to people without cause or knowledge. You are talking to someone who has felt it and I strongly doubt you are going to get him to change his mind any day soon. ;)
You keep forgetting that some of the people you are talking to are experienced and have formed their own opinions through those experiences.
Case in point: When you rant about effectiveness to people who grew up wrestling, in Judo, MT and FMA and you call them bunnies because they talk about IP. It' comes off rather hilarious for many of us but you haven't gotten that yet. It would be like you telling Rik he can't take a punch. Yes, it's that stupid
The people you are addressing just aren't telling you their backgrounds..

Core strength is not IP or aiki, and judo (though I love it) is not a qualifier for it. I would say you just don't know that you don't know, and that places you next to and equal to, hundreds who have said pretty much the same thing....then changed their minds. no harm, no foul. I thought the same way twenty years ago.
It's why I never get mad at you. Years ago I would have been agreeing with you!!
Cheers
Dan

[DH]

Interesting.
What do you think of Seigo Yamaguchi, and those continuing his approach?
For starters I was not being all inclusive-that's impossible- I was speaking generally.
There will be an interview coming out on Aikido Journal with a Shihan who studied privately with Yamagchi for 11 years, and aikido for 46 years and has had some interesting recent experiences of late.
Maybe you can ask him some questions then. A link will be posted here.
Cheers
Dan

[Chris Li]

For starters I was not being all inclusive-that's impossible- I was speaking generally.
There will be an interview coming out on Aikido Journal with a Shihan who studied privately with Yamagchi for 11 years, and aikido for 46 years and has had some interesting recent experiences of late.
Maybe you can ask him some questions then. A link will be posted here.
Cheers
Dan

Looking forward to that interview Dan!

FWIW, I trained with Yamaguchi (although not as long as the guy above), and fairly extensively with a number of his students.

IMO, Yamaguchi and his students had some parts (but not all) of what Dan is talking about, but they had no idea how they got it or how to transmit it (and many of those folks will say much the same thing if you talk to them).

Best,

Chris

[Demetrio Cereijo]

In the fullness of time, I think history will record the early years under Ueshiba; from the late thirties to forties as great years and they will be bookended with the time period perhaps ten years from now...when more people have developed IP/aiki and begin to do aiki....do.
With everything in between, including the present age, being greatly discounted as a wrong direction the art took due to many inept and poorly trained teachers that were sent out from Japan in the sixties and onward.
I think westerners are going to fix the art, and not the Japanese.

I'm not holding my breath waiting for that.

Really, I don't think the aikido community at large, from the file and rank to shihan level, is interested about IP/Aiki spreading.

[ewolput]

Hi Dan, why you are so negative about a martial art which maybe you practiced somewhere on this globe. But I suppose you have not been in all the places of this globe. In fact I never met you during one of the tomiki shiai, maybe I can be wrong.
For Tomiki aikido,those koryu no kata are a heritage from the past made by people who had first hand experience with Ueshiba. It is the duty of contemporary tomiki aikido people to study those methods and try to understand why it was done in this way and to have an insight why Tomiki created his system. If they are not interested in those things, maybe it is better not to call it Tomiki aikido. I can't remember if Tomiki or even Kano used the term Internal power. They tried to educate people by a system based on old martial teachings.
Why do judo people study old kata? Is it a question of understanding the origin of their art? Same for people who are doing iaido, kendo or jodo.....
Maybe they are also looking for some "magic" and they don't know how to find it;
Sometimes the discussions here are similar to a debate about can we use a cello in electronic pop music. Most of the cellist will say no, because they learned with the best teachers in the world and those teachers said "no". But there are some cellist who created a new way of playing and could bring cello in electronic pop music. Maybe they found the internal power of cello playing:D

But my initial question is : are there old Ueshiba students who openly made some critisism about the training system? And it was not my intention to start a debate about IP. This topic I leave to others who are looking for IP.

[Chris Li]

Hi Dan, why you are so negative about a martial art which maybe you practiced somewhere on this globe. But I suppose you have not been in all the places of this globe. In fact I never met you during one of the tomiki shiai, maybe I can be wrong..

He's not all that negative in person - it's more like frustration at wasted potential. And it's not just him - it's a whole bunch of Aikido 5th, 6th and 7th dans that are working with him on a regular basis.


But my initial question is : are there old Ueshiba students who openly made some critisism about the training system? And it was not my intention to start a debate about IP. This topic I leave to others who are looking for IP.

Well, Gozo Shioda, off the top of my head. Many others too, from private conversations that I've had.

Best,

Chris

[Tony Wagstaffe]

Actually once again you are talking down to people without cause or knowledge. You are talking to someone who has felt it and I strongly doubt you are going to get him to change his mind any day soon. ;)
You keep forgetting that some of the people you are talking to are experienced and have formed their own opinions through those experiences.
Case in point: When you rant about effectiveness to people who grew up wrestling, in Judo, MT and FMA and you call them bunnies because they talk about IP. It' comes off rather hilarious for many of us but you haven't gotten that yet. It would be like you telling Rik he can't take a punch. Yes, it's that stupid
The people you are addressing just aren't telling you their backgrounds..

Core strength is not IP or aiki, and judo (though I love it) is not a qualifier for it. I would say you just don't know that you don't know, and that places you next to and equal to, hundreds who have said pretty much the same thing....then changed their minds. no harm, no foul. I thought the same way twenty years ago.
It's why I never get mad at you. Years ago I would have been agreeing with you!!
Cheers
Dan

It's strange Dan that you have it and nobody else does, but we have been there before, so there you go. I agree that some in T/S don't always have it....... I know what I know and my students do to. Some get it some don't..... I have passed it on to them as best I know how and the strange part is the ones that put that extra effort in are the better ones from a power point of view who are getting "it" so to speak and it's not just muscle power, it is coming from the core.....
So maybe 20 years ago I didn't have "it" but through my own experimentation I have acquired "something" maybe similar to your "discovery"
I don't know how to put it in words but I feel mine emanates from my core and not the extremities....
But we all know where you are coming from....

[DH]

It's strange Dan that you have it and nobody else does, but we have been there before, so there you go.....
I am the only one? When did that happen? Strange, that I have routinely said the opposite of that, Tony, You should listen better.
I agree that some in T/S don't always have it....... I know what I know and my students do to. Some get it some don't..... I have passed it on to them as best I know how and the strange part is the ones that put that extra effort in are the better ones from a power point of view who are getting "it" so to speak and it's not just muscle power, it is coming from the core.....
So maybe 20 years ago I didn't have "it" but through my own experimentation I have acquired "something" maybe similar to your "discovery"
I don't know how to put it in words but I feel mine emanates from my core and not the extremities....
But we all know where you are coming from
My "discovery?"
Apparently you have no clue where I am coming from.
FWIW since "this discovery" has been around for generations, and is the core of what Takeda, Sagawa, Ueshiba,.Shioda, Tomiki and others were doing; how do your constant comments about "magic power" and "woo woo," "fairies" "ribbons" and "aikibunnies" fit in to what they were doing?.
Dan

[Marc Abrams]

It's strange Dan that you have it and nobody else does, but we have been there before, so there you go. I agree that some in T/S don't always have it....... I know what I know and my students do to. Some get it some don't..... I have passed it on to them as best I know how and the strange part is the ones that put that extra effort in are the better ones from a power point of view who are getting "it" so to speak and it's not just muscle power, it is coming from the core.....
So maybe 20 years ago I didn't have "it" but through my own experimentation I have acquired "something" maybe similar to your "discovery"
I don't know how to put it in words but I feel mine emanates from my core and not the extremities....
But we all know where you are coming from....

Tony:

Please cite your source as to where Dan claims that he has "IT" and nobody else does. If you cannot find that source, then kindly issue an apology for your "mistake." Dan has been open about acknowledging other people in the community that have some of "IT" as well (Dan never claimed to or currently claims to have all of "IT").

Using one of Dan's quotes "You don't know what you don't know." One of the people that Dan has mentioned (myself as well), Ushiro Sensei says something like "the biggest block to your learning is what you already think that you know."

You have been encouraged to experience at least one of those two people and you have alternated by being dismissive of what you might learn/experience or claim that you already have "IT."

Very senior martial artists train with both Dan and Ushiro Sensei. Maybe, just maybe they do so for very good reason. You would never know why until you experienced for yourself. Then again, you can continue to claim mutually incompatible reasons for not wanting to experience either of them..... Kind of fitting what the moniker is at the bottom of your posts. Maybe it is you who is afraid of the truth, because it might hurt you to realize how much you didn't learn after all.

Marc Abrams

[DH]

I'm not holding my breath waiting for that.
Really, I don't think the aikido community at large, from the file and rank to shihan level, is interested about IP/Aiki spreading.

Well I think it is obvious that the rank and file are completely oblivious as to what IP/aiki is and what they are missing that is the foundation of everything they have been trying to do. I also agree that they don't care at all.
Why am I so sure it will change?
Because everyone who encounters IP/aiki and learns to use it...wants it. The numbers will only continue to grow as it is occuring year by year, and now teacher by teacher. Soon it will be exponantial in one form or another.
Not that it matters, but I would add that Japanese shihan...and Doshu (including a shihan who is a long time friend of his who is training this and has talked with him about it) are not as "out of the loop" as you may think. They already know of the buzz and the players, and what is being said and done. Again, though I don't think the Japanese are going to be the ones to fix it anyway. They don't really have what it takes to teach it well, With them it will be as it always was, catch as catch can.
Dan

[mathewjgano]

One of the things I find so interesting is that by all accounts I've seen, Tomiki was very specific in how to practice. It's one of the things I really enjoyed about my very short stint at the Himeji Shodokan club. Given this and the fact that he is held so highly as an example of internal strength, where do we suppose the disconnect (assuming one exists, of course; I'm in no position to know one way or the other) took place? I hear a lot of how Ueshiba may have changed his teaching, but I would think Tomiki would have been very up front with what to do, and representative to a large degree in how Ueshiba taught prewar.

[Demetrio Cereijo]

Why am I so sure it will change?
Because everyone who encounters IP/aiki and learns to use it...wants it. The numbers will only continue to grow as it is occuring year by year, and now teacher by teacher. Soon it will be exponantial in one form or another.
Time will tell, but I don't think the change is coming soon and much less exponentially.

Not that it matters, but I would add that Japanese shihan...and Doshu (including a shihan who is a long time friend of his who is training this and has talked with him about it) are not as "out of the loop" as you may think. They already know of the buzz and the players, and what is being said and done.
Sure they're not "out of the loop" but that doesn't make them interested in IP/aiki spreading. It would be recognizing that they have been selling an "aikido for dummies" as the real deal for the last 60 years.

[mathewjgano]

Time will tell, but I don't think the change is coming soon and much less exponentially.

Sure they're not "out of the loop" but that doesn't make them interested in IP/aiki spreading. It would be recognizing that they have been selling an "aikido for dummies" as the real deal for the last 60 years.

Isn't the change already begun? And if they don't embrace it wouldn't the supposed difference be that much more obvious?

[Demetrio Cereijo]

Isn't the change already begun?
It's still underground and will remain underground until accepted and promoted by the establishment.

And if they don't embrace it wouldn't the supposed difference be that much more obvious?
They only have to say "this is not Aikido" and that's all. File and rank will follow.

The IP/Aiki proponents, if they are really interested in IP/Aiki spreading and becoming mainstream, should adopt a different marketing (for a lack of better word) strategy.

[mathewjgano]

The IP/Aiki proponents, if they are really interested in IP/Aiki spreading and becoming mainstream, should adopt a different marketing (for a lack of better word) strategy.

What do you think would be a good approach?

[Tony Wagstaffe]

Tony:

Please cite your source as to where Dan claims that he has "IT" and nobody else does. If you cannot find that source, then kindly issue an apology for your "mistake." Dan has been open about acknowledging other people in the community that have some of "IT" as well (Dan never claimed to or currently claims to have all of "IT").

Using one of Dan's quotes "You don't know what you don't know." One of the people that Dan has mentioned (myself as well), Ushiro Sensei says something like "the biggest block to your learning is what you already think that you know."

You have been encouraged to experience at least one of those two people and you have alternated by being dismissive of what you might learn/experience or claim that you already have "IT."

Very senior martial artists train with both Dan and Ushiro Sensei. Maybe, just maybe they do so for very good reason. You would never know why until you experienced for yourself. Then again, you can continue to claim mutually incompatible reasons for not wanting to experience either of them..... Kind of fitting what the moniker is at the bottom of your posts. Maybe it is you who is afraid of the truth, because it might hurt you to realize how much you didn't learn after all.

Marc Abrams

So you are saying, like Dan, that none other than those you mention have not discovered it for themselves don't know? Well that is a contradiction in terms isn't it? There are many inflated grades that I'm aware of and have studied as many years if not more? Have they really wasted their time for all these years, or maybe that just haven't thought about it that much?
Me? I am just a lowly 4th dan who according to you and Dan knows nothing...... Grades to me really mean nothing, it's just a numbers game. Do you honestly think I care about what you are trying to preach to me? Am I worried and really concerned about it? If I was, I would be the first to apply for one of Dan's courses in "IP" much like yourself Marc, but then again maybe don't have "it" so maybe you have that need....? I'm quite happy with what I was given in the beginning and have worked on it. Tomiki Sensei gave us the "tools", it's up to everyone who studies his system to make the best of it and find out for themselves by trial and error... Not everybody is going to get "it"..... that's life.....
I didn't study under one teacher, but many, and I learned to get the best out of them. it's been a fairly long road , but self revelation comes at a price, I believe it's called hard work....... Some, it seems find difficult to do......
I'm sure Dan is quite competent, power to him, but don't you think that we all haven't discovered something for ourselves along the way?

[Marc Abrams]

It's still underground and will remain underground until accepted and promoted by the establishment.

They only have to say "this is not Aikido" and that's all. File and rank will follow.

The IP/Aiki proponents, if they are really interested in IP/Aiki spreading and becoming mainstream, should adopt a different marketing (for a lack of better word) strategy.

Demetrio:

My teacher, who was a direct student of O'Sensei talked about the "secret" study groups that people partook in then. That still happens today. The manner in which a Shihan might teach at the headquarters might be very, very different from how he teaches at his own dojo. The "establishment" might not overtly promote the "other stuff", but they certainly haven't squashed it either. I am not waiting for a straight answer from some authority, rather trying to become as good, or potentially better than my teacher. IP/Aiki skills is one pathway toward that goal. I know my teacher is supporting me to become the best that I possibly can be.

Hopefully we all are on that path to self-betterment.

Regards,

Marc Abrams

[mathewjgano]

I may be wrong, and I apologize if I am, but I get the impression that Dan's message is that "IP" is so misunderstood that it's practically not there at all (by his and others' standards at least) in the rather large Aikido community. I haven't been following a lot of the IP conversations for a while, but I also haven't seen any names in Aikido as being described as having "any" of it. However, I do hear a lot about people from Aikido, high ranking ones even, who are learning it, which implies that some people somewhere have something.
So I think parts of the message (by him and others) might be taking center-stage in these conversations, eclipsing the whole.
I'm still curious about my question regarding Tomiki though. I would think he would be a person who would have been very clear about how he trained with Ueshiba, but I might also be inferring too much. I'm not even a "lowly" yondan. I'm a 5th kyu (of an independant dojo, not Shodokan) and a rather poor one at that.

[Marc Abrams]

So you are saying, like Dan, that none other than those you mention have not discovered it for themselves don't know? Well that is a contradiction in terms isn't it? There are many inflated grades that I'm aware of and have studied as many years if not more? Have they really wasted their time for all these years, or maybe that just haven't thought about it that much?
Me? I am just a lowly 4th dan who according to you and Dan knows nothing...... Grades to me really mean nothing, it's just a numbers game. Do you honestly think I care about what you are trying to preach to me? Am I worried and really concerned about it? If I was, I would be the first to apply for one of Dan's courses in "IP" much like yourself Marc, but then again maybe don't have "it" so maybe you have that need....? I'm quite happy with what I was given in the beginning and have worked on it. Tomiki Sensei gave us the "tools", it's up to everyone who studies his system to make the best of it and find out for themselves by trial and error... Not everybody is going to get "it"..... that's life.....
I didn't study under one teacher, but many, and I learned to get the best out of them. it's been a fairly long road , but self revelation comes at a price, I believe it's called hard work....... Some, it seems find difficult to do......
I'm sure Dan is quite competent, power to him, but don't you think that we all haven't discovered something for ourselves along the way?

Tony,

You should try and stop twisting words for a change so that you can justify your feeling belittled and attacked. Nowhere did I talk about just Dan and Ushiro Sensei as being the only two that have IT. Where exactly did I say that you know nothing? Once again, maybe an apology is in order for intentionally distorting what I said.

If you were not so worried about this topic, then you probably would not be posting so much about it.

This arena has nothing to do about what we have discovered for ourselves along the way and has everything to do with continuing to reach out and discover anew. O'Sensei certainly set a model for doing so. Once again, try taking your own moniker to heart and practice what you preach.

Marc Abrams

ps- If I was preaching to you, I would at least expect you to tithe! ;)

[DH]

Me? I am just a lowly 4th dan who according to you and Dan knows nothing......
Hey Tony
Ya know, I never said that...and I truly...truly...do not feel that way. Please don't put words in my mouth...or thoughts in your head!! It prevents us from communicating, staight up..You alienate yourself from me, and not the other way round.
but don't you think that we all haven't discovered something for ourselves along the way?
If you had discovered (your words) what I and others are talking about, you would recognize it and discuss it as a practical reality, and not be make fun of it as magic and stupiding.
Stop being defensive. It's all good. When are you willing to embace advice in a friendly, and non confrontational manner?
Have you even heard me tell you that on any other day I would be agreeing with you? How about responding to a full and friendly post instead of picking points to argue?
Cheers
Dan.

[hughrbeyer]

Hey all. (And an online hi back to you, Dan!)

@Eddy, I want to be clear that I don't intend my remarks above to be a slam on the Tomiki system. My first real dojo and first real sensei were Tomiki, and I have a lot of fondness for the style. But people were talking about what Tomiki may have preserved from the Founder that the Aikikai didn't, and wondering if it included aiki and internal power (Gerardo).

When you talk of the Tandoku Undo exercises teaching good posture and balance and correct movement, I totally understand that. And if you want to argue that Tomiki kept more of the jujitsu movements than the Aikikai, I'd agree with that too. But neither tandoku undo nor the basic randori-no-kata train aiki/IP as Dan teaches it in any explicit way; I can't see how those movements train those IP principles in any implicit way; and I never heard any talk of how those principles underlie the movements. (We were taught Tohei's four principles, by contrast.)

This isn't good or bad, it just suggests that whatever the reason Tomiki split from Hombu, and whatever he took with him to emphasize in his style, this wasn't it.

Contrast that with baguazhang, where my experience is measured in hours. Dan has a language and explicit visualizations to work on what he's doing, and I haven't encountered any of that in bagua yet. But from the first warm-up exercise we did (literally), we were clearly practicing some of the same basics. Especially interesting in light of the speculation in Hidden in Plain Sight about possible Chinese roots of Daito-Ryu.

Whether Tandoku Undo teaches good use of the handblade, well... if you're gonna teach sword movements, get a sword. I think you'd do better to spend the time on kesagiri suburi practice. You'd learn more about moving from center, and moving the center, and moving, and proper hanmi, and extension, and ki extension, and keeping the shoulders loose, and not muscling the movement, and not allowing the movement to take you off center, and a bunch of other stuff, than all the tandoku undo in the world.

I'm also unimpressed by shiai as a way of keeping martial effectiveness in the art. If you're not doing full contact, it's a game. It may teach lots of good awareness, but it's not going to guarantee martial effectiveness. I never knew how many ways I could be open until I joined my current dojo.

As for Dan's Aiki/IP... One of the charming things about Dan is that "Dan Harden" and "marketing strategy" don't really fit in the same sentence. :) He does what he does, take it or leave it. But my attitude is, once I've seen it, why the hell would I not take it? I'm shown a way to increase the effectiveness of my aikido by an order of magnitude and I'm going to, what, just walk away? Might as well take up tiddlywinks, at that point.

I think a lot of the angst here comes from a perception that what Dan does is an alternative to aikido. Certainly when we started experiencing with it in my dojo I worried about where it would all lead... I first fell in love with aikido, after all. If I wanted to do Daito-Ryu, I'd be doing Daito-Ryu. But over the last year it's become very clear that what you get when you apply the aiki/IP stuff to aikido is--aikido. And a very nice aikido too, IMHO.

As an aside, why would I want my spirit to "fit in" with the guy who's attacking me? My spirit is my own.

Gassho, all.

[mathewjgano]

I think you'd do better to spend the time on kesagiri suburi practice. You'd learn more about moving from center, and moving the center, and moving, and proper hanmi, and extension, and ki extension, and keeping the shoulders loose, and not muscling the movement, and not allowing the movement to take you off center, and a bunch of other stuff...
...
As an aside, why would I want my spirit to "fit in" with the guy who's attacking me? My spirit is my own.

Gassho, all.
That's very interesting! I'm not saying my experience is the same, but this fits with my meager understanding of Aikido (I can't compare well with tandoku undo though). My experiences with kesa cutting practices have always felt very useful in the ways you described, and my understanding of the "harmony" in Aikido is that it's based on harmonizing with Nature/natural principles and leaving it somewhat up to the other guy to adjust, much of the adjustment being based on the inherent strength of tori's connection with "Heaven and Earth."
Thank you!
Matt

[ewolput]

Whether Tandoku Undo teaches good use of the handblade, well... if you're gonna teach sword movements, get a sword. I think you'd do better to spend the time on kesagiri suburi practice. You'd learn more about moving from center, and moving the center, and moving, and proper hanmi, and extension, and ki extension, and keeping the shoulders loose, and not muscling the movement, and not allowing the movement to take you off center, and a bunch of other stuff, than all the tandoku undo in the world.


You suggest to take the sword and start practising with it. I will discuss this with my iai and jo teacher.
It seems there are people on this forum who don't know each other very well and by not knowing the backround of the person making a "strange" remark.

Anyway the expression "internal power" is creating a very controversial debate. There are people who have it and there are people who don't have it, but it seems most of them don't have the "skill" to bring the message.
In Tomiki aikido, as a stated before, we don't use the expression "internal power", we use the term "skill" and "skillfull" to express the ability of someone.
The tandoku undo are exercises not only empty handed, but you also can use a weapon to create proper bodymovement which is the foundation to create "skill".

[L. Camejo]

I'm still curious about my question regarding Tomiki though. I would think he would be a person who would have been very clear about how he trained with Ueshiba, but I might also be inferring too much.Hi Matthew,

From my talks with certain J.A.A. Shihan who are continually researching this subject, Tomiki was very clear on certain aspects of his training with Ueshiba M. The impression I got however was that he considered a lot of the "ki" tricks etc. that may be associated with knowledge of what the Chinese artists and some others refer to as "Internal Power" as showing off, so he rarely demonstrated these things in isolation but it was ever present in his waza. During my talks, I was also told about a particular closed door, 2-week long training session with Tomiki and Ueshiba M. alone, where critical aspects of Ueshiba's Aiki Jujutsu were revealed. How true these claims are I don't know, but later Tomiki went on to teach Ueshiba's Aiki Jujutsu at a military college in Manchuria.

Tomiki did however codify the training methodology within the Taiso and basic exercises done at the beginning of every Shodokan training session. This does not mean however that most Shodokan practitioners know why they do what they do. Most think its just a warm up. :) As with anything to do with "IP" if you are not aware of how your mind affects subtle aspects of your body's alignment, muscular organization etc. you can do the movements for a lifetime and not get anything out of it but a good sweat and some exercise.

One simple example of this is the second movement in the Shodokan "warm ups", just after jumping to get the blood going. The hand/arm positions shown are a very basic example of aiki age and aiki sage, but if one is not aware of what mental imagery, skeletal alignments, breathing and internal tensions that should be associated with the movement, they simply shake their arms up and down and then squat. :) Another easy example appears in Tegatana Dosa and another is found in Hiriki no Renshu. The discussion that my Yoshinkan friends and I have on the similarities of that last one usually lasts for hours. :)

To borrow from what Eddy said, Tomiki also blended the applied aspects of internal mind/body organization with his theories on kuzushi (this is found in the Koryu Dai Yon kata as Eddy mentions or the Nanahon no Kuzushi exercise). As a result, a lot of the "aiki" in our method is found within the timing and application of kuzushi. That is why we never talk specifically about "Internal Power" per se, but in the explanation of kuzushi you will hear a lot about To Itsu Ryoku (focus of power), I Do Ryoku (movement power) and Datsu Ryoku (soft arm power).

Sorry to add to the thread drift, I think this discussion has gone away from Eddy's original intent, but I thought this was worth mentioning.

Hope it helps.

Best regards

LC

[Tony Wagstaffe]

Hey Tony
Ya know, I never said that...and I truly...truly...do not feel that way. Please don't put words in my mouth...or thoughts in your head!! It prevents us from communicating, staight up..You alienate yourself from me, and not the other way round.

If you had discovered (your words) what I and others are talking about, you would recognize it and discuss it as a practical reality, and not be make fun of it as magic and stupiding.
Stop being defensive. It's all good. When are you willing to embace advice in a friendly, and non confrontational manner?
Have you even heard me tell you that on any other day I would be agreeing with you? How about responding to a full and friendly post instead of picking points to argue?
Cheers
Dan.

Dan funnily enough I do recognize it, what I don't like is the fact that you will not put up video as the others have done, such as Ushiro and Akuzawa, who I agree are doing something similar to some of the things I have discovered for myself.... You want to somehow keep it under wraps whereas these other guys are being completely open about it.
What is so special about yours that you can't put something up as a taster? I'm sure if there is some value in it I would see it for myself just as others would and we would all come along to your seminars Dan....
I like to see the "product" I might be purchasing before I make any commitment.....
Make something a little "mysterious" and the "must have it's" will come in their droves, a known sales ploy....
Like I said before Dan put something up for all of us to see and you might, just might get a better reaction......

[Tony Wagstaffe]

Tony,

You should try and stop twisting words for a change so that you can justify your feeling belittled and attacked. Nowhere did I talk about just Dan and Ushiro Sensei as being the only two that have IT. Where exactly did I say that you know nothing? Once again, maybe an apology is in order for intentionally distorting what I said.

If you were not so worried about this topic, then you probably would not be posting so much about it.

This arena has nothing to do about what we have discovered for ourselves along the way and has everything to do with continuing to reach out and discover anew. O'Sensei certainly set a model for doing so. Once again, try taking your own moniker to heart and practice what you preach.

Marc Abrams

ps- If I was preaching to you, I would at least expect you to tithe! ;)

Marc I'm not twisting anything, you just assume I am..... I speak directly from the heart and I don't really care if it somehow affects your sensitivities. BTW liked yours and Georges photo, it suited you both.... I was going to send you a years supply of carrots just in case you ran out..... Good for night vision you know when most of the bunnies come out to play....;)

[Tony Wagstaffe]

You suggest to take the sword and start practising with it. I will discuss this with my iai and jo teacher.
It seems there are people on this forum who don't know each other very well and by not knowing the backround of the person making a "strange" remark.

Anyway the expression "internal power" is creating a very controversial debate. There are people who have it and there are people who don't have it, but it seems most of them don't have the "skill" to bring the message.
In Tomiki aikido, as a stated before, we don't use the expression "internal power", we use the term "skill" and "skillfull" to express the ability of someone.
The tandoku undo are exercises not only empty handed, but you also can use a weapon to create proper bodymovement which is the foundation to create "skill".

That is true Eddy, I use a heavy bokuto for tandoku undo, it gives it another dimension.....Also for unsoku.
I don't use it as just a warm up but as a study which many in T/S seem to neglect. It's no good repeating a couple of times, but many many times over until one is exhausted. Most find it boring and want to get straight onto doing "waza"

[Tony Wagstaffe]

Hi Matthew,

From my talks with certain J.A.A. Shihan who are continually researching this subject, Tomiki was very clear on certain aspects of his training with Ueshiba M. The impression I got however was that he considered a lot of the "ki" tricks etc. that may be associated with knowledge of what the Chinese artists and some others refer to as "Internal Power" as showing off, so he rarely demonstrated these things in isolation but it was ever present in his waza. During my talks, I was also told about a particular closed door, 2-week long training session with Tomiki and Ueshiba M. alone, where critical aspects of Ueshiba's Aiki Jujutsu were revealed. How true these claims are I don't know, but later Tomiki went on to teach Ueshiba's Aiki Jujutsu at a military college in Manchuria.

Tomiki did however codify the training methodology within the Taiso and basic exercises done at the beginning of every Shodokan training session. This does not mean however that most Shodokan practitioners know why they do what they do. Most think its just a warm up. :) As with anything to do with "IP" if you are not aware of how your mind affects subtle aspects of your body's alignment, muscular organization etc. you can do the movements for a lifetime and not get anything out of it but a good sweat and some exercise.

One simple example of this is the second movement in the Shodokan "warm ups", just after jumping to get the blood going. The hand/arm positions shown are a very basic example of aiki age and aiki sage, but if one is not aware of what mental imagery, skeletal alignments, breathing and internal tensions that should be associated with the movement, they simply shake their arms up and down and then squat. :) Another easy example appears in Tegatana Dosa and another is found in Hiriki no Renshu. The discussion that my Yoshinkan friends and I have on the similarities of that last one usually lasts for hours. :)

To borrow from what Eddy said, Tomiki also blended the applied aspects of internal mind/body organization with his theories on kuzushi (this is found in the Koryu Dai Yon kata as Eddy mentions or the Nanahon no Kuzushi exercise). As a result, a lot of the "aiki" in our method is found within the timing and application of kuzushi. That is why we never talk specifically about "Internal Power" per se, but in the explanation of kuzushi you will hear a lot about To Itsu Ryoku (focus of power), I Do Ryoku (movement power) and Datsu Ryoku (soft arm power).

Sorry to add to the thread drift, I think this discussion has gone away from Eddy's original intent, but I thought this was worth mentioning.

Hope it helps.

Best regards

LC

It does Larry, well done.... bleak barance, bleak barance..... No bleak barance? Oh dear..... no throw......

[philipsmith]

before the thread degenerates any further into Tony vs. the world, I'd just like to make acomment about the original topic.

Both Abe and Tomiki Senseis had the right, as high-ranking instructors to appraise Aikido critically, but it doesn't necessarily follow they were right in that criticism.

Maybe this elusive internal power does exist (maybe it doesn't) but we all know that Aikido requires much serious personal study before it can be appreciated fully.

We all think we know what"Aikido" is and look at all other Aikido from that point of view and that has be true of both Tomiki and Abe senseis.

Just my take on the situation - feel free to ignore or not as you wish.

[Tony Wagstaffe]

before the thread degenerates any further into Tony vs. the world, I'd just like to make acomment about the original topic.

Both Abe and Tomiki Senseis had the right, as high-ranking instructors to appraise Aikido critically, but it doesn't necessarily follow they were right in that criticism.

Maybe this elusive internal power does exist (maybe it doesn't) but we all know that Aikido requires much serious personal study before it can be appreciated fully.

We all think we know what"Aikido" is and look at all other Aikido from that point of view and that has be true of both Tomiki and Abe senseis.

Just my take on the situation - feel free to ignore or not as you wish.

Ha ha!! No me versus peoples over sensitive sensitivities.....:D
With hand on hip and making that camp gesture....

[ewolput]

The story of Tadashi Abe is quite rude, the Tomiki interview is more polite. Both expressed their feelings about a trainingsystem which lacks a critiial element, according their belief how aikido has to be practised
Shiai and/or randori is only one element to test your skill and Tomiki and his followers think this is an objective way of evaluating the skill under a structured formt with rules to avoid injuries and also to evaluate people from the beginning of their training.
Tadashi Abe used problaly a different method. That is a question for those who knew him better.
At the end of the 19th century beginning 20th century, in Europe a certain Barton Wright created a system called Bartitsu, with element from jujutsu, boxing and stickfighting (western style). After WW2 this system was almost forgotten. But now there is some revival and people are trying to construct this old system again based on documents and experience of contemporary martial arts. I see the same evolution in aikido, people are trying to create a system of aikido which reflects the skill of the founder and his teachers. Luckily we have some old students of Ueshiba who had some knowledge and they transmitted this to their students what they understood from the teachings of their sensei.
It is very interesting to learn about the different methods of Ueshiba's students even if they lack some martial experience.
Explaining a method is not simple, the best way is to feel what is happening to have first hand experience. But sometimes it is difficult because not everybody has the facilities to visit a person who is skillfull. In Tomiki aikido we are using "kuzushi" a lot, but it seems there a lot of interpretations of it. The same for "aiki" and "internal power"
If there are critisism of training methods I will be very glad to know them and have some explanation about what is missing and maybe the cure of it.

[john.burn]

Dan funnily enough I do recognize it, what I don't like is the fact that you will not put up video as the others have done, such as Ushiro and Akuzawa, who I agree are doing something similar to some of the things I have discovered for myself.... You want to somehow keep it under wraps whereas these other guys are being completely open about it...
...Like I said before Dan put something up for all of us to see and you might, just might get a better reaction......

Tony, yet again, no offense to your Aikido, but why don't you actually put a video of yourself online showing us your version of IP? Because in that promo video of you, well, sorry but there was nothing even remotely showing IP in anyway. Aikido yes, but no IP. Don't take this as a negative comment.

Most of these guys are involved with private discussions and lots of people on Aikiweb also get involved with those private discussions - many of the guys (and girls) on here have posted videos, they're just hidden in plain sight ;) Erm, well more like hidden with a password.

[Demetrio Cereijo]

What do you think would be a good approach?

They should contact Joinha. :)

My teacher, who was a direct student of O'Sensei talked about the "secret" study groups that people partook in then. That still happens today. The manner in which a Shihan might teach at the headquarters might be very, very different from how he teaches at his own dojo. The "establishment" might not overtly promote the "other stuff", but they certainly haven't squashed it either.

Marc, the "secret" study groups, the different teachings for "in house" students and the like is not working as a method to put back IP in Aikido. It only serves to make two kinds of aikido: one for the subjects/proletariat, lacking IP but good enough to keep things rolling, and other for the ruling class.

This "Aikido with IP only for the chosen ones" transmission model is cultish and is one of the things that, IMO, will cause the art extinction sooner than expected.

I remember Ledyard Sensei saying today's young people don't want to put the hard work. Goldsbury Sensei said something similar regarding Doshu concerns about the number of Aikido practitioneres decreasing in Japan. Today's people are putting the hard work in BJJ, MMA, Wrestling, Boxing and Kickboxing because, in these arts, what they offer matches with what you get if you put the work, the pain, the sweat and the hours.

Aikido is agonizing. The waza has become fake and empty, the spiritual principles have been substituted by new age zen lite for middle aged esalenish burgueoises.

This underground IP/Aiki movement is not going to change anything.

[Marc Abrams]

They should contact Joinha. :)

Marc, the "secret" study groups, the different teachings for "in house" students and the like is not working as a method to put back IP in Aikido. It only serves to make two kinds of aikido: one for the subjects/proletariat, lacking IP but good enough to keep things rolling, and other for the ruling class.

This "Aikido with IP only for the chosen ones" transmission model is cultish and is one of the things that, IMO, will cause the art extinction sooner than expected.

I remember Ledyard Sensei saying today's young people don't want to put the hard work. Goldsbury Sensei said something similar regarding Doshu concerns about the number of Aikido practitioneres decreasing in Japan. Today's people are putting the hard work in BJJ, MMA, Wrestling, Boxing and Kickboxing because, in these arts, what they offer matches with what you get if you put the work, the pain, the sweat and the hours.

Aikido is agonizing. The waza has become fake and empty, the spiritual principles have been substituted by new age zen lite for middle aged esalenish burgueoises.

This underground IP/Aiki movement is not going to change anything.

Demetrio:

I see this issue as having more to do with a genuine failure in teaching paradigms. The traditional, Asian paradigm was a small, family-style teaching methodology. Even in that paradigm, the "cap stone" of the system was typically only taught to the successor. The paradigm could never translate to a larger student base and people struggle with how to bridge gaps. The open secret about the private study groups was one way. The different teaching styles at private dojos was another way.

George is right in that people have a great deal of difficulty in training as hard as was common in the past. There are many different reasons for that to be the norm of today. Even so, many of us struggle with trying to find better teaching paradigms. One reason that I like training with Dan is that his teaching paradigms are very much in tune with a western-culture style of teaching & learning. No secrets, methodical, logical.... One of the reasons that I like training with Ushiro Sensei is that he is one of the very few who have a genuinely deep understanding of the depth of kata and it's potential to truly learn from this style of training. One of the reasons that I like training with Imaizumi Sensei is that there is no ego involved and we can continue to explore the depths of the "basics" so that we can develop an ever-expanding foundation.

I struggle to try and integrate from all sources for my own training and teacher. It is imperfect and I am always dissatisfied with where I am at and push myself to do better... much better. I owe this to my students.

Regards,

Marc Abrams

[hughrbeyer]

You suggest to take the sword and start practising with it. I will discuss this with my iai and jo teacher. It seems there are people on this forum who don't know each other very well and by not knowing the backround of the person making a "strange" remark.

Um, are you saying my comment about suburi strikes you as strange? Why? O-Sensei said: "When you have no sword, move as if you had a sword." How can I do that if I don't know how I'm supposed to move with a sword? Anyway, let's take this digression off to the other thread.

Larry: As with anything to do with "IP" if you are not aware of how your mind affects subtle aspects of your body's alignment, muscular organization etc. you can do the movements for a lifetime and not get anything out of it but a good sweat and some exercise... One simple example of this is the second movement in the Shodokan "warm ups", just after jumping to get the blood going. The hand/arm positions shown are a very basic example of aiki age and aiki sage, but if one is not aware of what mental imagery, skeletal alignments, breathing and internal tensions that should be associated with the movement, they simply shake their arms up and down and then squat.

This is interesting and I'd love to hear more about it, but you do realize that this is exactly the criticism that is being leveled against traditional aikido training, don't you? The external forms are taught but not the understanding of internals that gives the external form life, and because they're internal it's very hard to figure them out on one's own. So we all end up practicing pretty movements that don't mean anything. We have to bring an understanding of these aspects of "mind" back into our training explicitly if we want to elevate aikido as an art.

I'm interested that Tomiki considered the IP stuff "tricks". What's a trick and what's core to aikido? Good technique? Joint locks? Using movement to lead uke off balance? IP? Aikido brings all those together into a unified whole, which is part of what makes it such a fascinating art. I have to say tho, so far as I'm concerned, it's the internal connection (which IP enables) that matters. Without that, the rest is just sound and fury.

Philip: before the thread degenerates any further into Tony vs. the world, I'd just like to make acomment about the original topic.

Actually, the "Tony vs. the world" thread is here (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19746). Please make a note of it. :D

[Chris Li]

This underground IP/Aiki movement is not going to change anything.

It's hardly underground - it's just not available everywhere...yet.

There are plenty of videos of folks with good skills on Youtube, do we really need more? What people need is to get their hands on someone who can push them in the right direction. Then they have to put in the work.

Best,

Chris

[mathewjgano]

Thank you, Larry! And, sorry, I probably should have phrased the question so it related more to the point of the thread. I do think it is interesting to consider the Tomiki method as a way to frame the criticism though.
Thank you again, Larry.
Take care,
Matt

[Demetrio Cereijo]

It's hardly underground - it's just not available everywhere...yet.
If is not widely available is underground, and I don't believe this IP/Aiki is going to be common in this century, much less in the next decades.

It will be a "for a few chosen only" thing like it ever has been.

There are plenty of videos of folks with good skills on Youtube, do we really need more?
Define good skills.

Links to some of said clips would be useful to see if your good skills definition matches mine, because we could be considering good skills different things.

[phitruong]

I Do Ryoku (movement power) and Datsu Ryoku (soft arm power).

LC

Larry, is that a typo? wouldn't that be "I Do Ryoku", "U Do Ryoku", "We Do Ryoku"? hey, i feel a rap song coming. :)

*sorry, couldn't help meself. i will now perform yonkyo on myself to atone..... oowww oh god! that hurt! bastard put on the yonkyo too hard!*

please resume the scheduled entertainment!

[chillzATL]

It will be a "for a few chosen only" thing like it ever has been.


The only reason this may be the case is because people simply won't put in the time needed to get anywhere with it. It will not be because the information isn't out there and freely available to anyone who wants to seek it out.

[Demetrio Cereijo]

Jason,

People all around the world is putting time, money, effort, sweat, pain and mat hours in things like BJJ, Judo, Boxing, MMA..., systems that have been demonstrating they work if you put the required work (and they require a lot of work). People is not lazy, people is tired of giving and not receiving, people is tired of being fooled.

You have to regain the confidence of people because, due the lies of the past generation, today's serious seekers of budo don't trust you anymore.

[Chris Li]

If is not widely available is underground, and I don't believe this IP/Aiki is going to be common in this century, much less in the next decades.

It will be a "for a few chosen only" thing like it ever has been.

Just because it isn't available where you are doesn't mean that it's underground.There are plenty of public workshops and study groups working on this stuff.


Define good skills.

Links to some of said clips would be useful to see if your good skills definition matches mine, because we could be considering good skills different things.

Kodo Horikawa's on Youtube, so is Seigo Okamoto, Ark, and even...Ueshiba. Take your pick :) .

Best,

Chris

[Tony Wagstaffe]

Tony, yet again, no offense to your Aikido, but why don't you actually put a video of yourself online showing us your version of IP? Because in that promo video of you, well, sorry but there was nothing even remotely showing IP in anyway. Aikido yes, but no IP. Don't take this as a negative comment.

Most of these guys are involved with private discussions and lots of people on Aikiweb also get involved with those private discussions - many of the guys (and girls) on here have posted videos, they're just hidden in plain sight ;) Erm, well more like hidden with a password.

According to you John no, IP? but then I would expect that, when are we going to see one of you?....... I would love to see your IP, you know us sailor's......

[hughrbeyer]

Y'know, I think we have to be more specific about what we mean by IP. Aikido is an internal art--all aikido is internal to some degree. I've never met the aikido dojo where they don't talk about ki, connection, and taking balance.

So I think the interesting questions are: What are you trying to achieve with internal power? What concepts and language do you have to talk about it? How detailed is that language? How specific can you be about using internal power to deal with specific martial situations, not just the attack but what happens after the attack? How does your understanding of internal power integrate with external movement?

[Demetrio Cereijo]

Just because it isn't available where you are doesn't mean that it's underground.There are plenty of public workshops and study groups working on this stuff.

Chris, I'm not talking of being available here. I'm talking of being available where you are. How many aikido dojo are operating in USA?, and in Japan?, and in France? How many of them offer IP/Aiki training ater all those years of talking.

Imagine for a moment I move to a big city (LA, NYC, Paris, Tokyo) wiht lots of fine and famous Aikido dojo. What is really available regarding IP/Aiki?

Kodo Horikawa's on Youtube, so is Seigo Okamoto, Ark, and even...Ueshiba. Take your pick :) .
Demos, demos and more demos. Except for some rare clips of Ushiro sensei, nothing that can make an skeptic pack and move.

[john.burn]

According to you John no, IP? but then I would expect that, when are we going to see one of you?....... I would love to see your IP, you know us sailor's......

Wasn't just according to me Tony, not by a long way. There is a least one video floating around of me, you just need to look.

Most of the guys who know their stuff (not me) can look at a video and know who's faking it or who hasn't got it. If you've felt it, or had even a little exposure there are things you can describe and see even in a video and no-one seems to be seeing it in your one.

On a level of 1 to 10, I wouldn't even get a 1 yet, but you know, I have gotten off my backside and met some of these people and I am actively involved in working with the people in my club on this stuff, we're working on it together - who've you met who has the goods? Who can vouch for you in IP and not in ecky thump terms? You might be handy to have around in a fight, I get that, I have no problem with that side of your aikido.

[john.burn]

Tony, don't take the ecky thump thing as too offensive ;) Just realised is an ancient and traditional martial art originating from Lancashire up North. :D

[chillzATL]

Jason,

People all around the world is putting time, money, effort, sweat, pain and mat hours in things like BJJ, Judo, Boxing, MMA..., systems that have been demonstrating they work if you put the required work (and they require a lot of work). People is not lazy, people is tired of giving and not receiving, people is tired of being fooled.

You have to regain the confidence of people because, due the lies of the past generation, today's serious seekers of budo don't trust you anymore.

The difference is that in all of those instances you have a more immediate ROI vs. internal training. If you roll for a week straight with someone who is good, you should be demonstrably better at the end of that week. Internal training requires a reconditioning and retraining of the body that is tiring, both mentally and physically and to be perfectly honest, BORING at the onset. That's a hard thing for a lot of people to do, especially when even after that initial hump, it's still not something that you can really "use" in the same sense as you could other more direct training. It's just the initial hump that you need to get over in order to really be able to feel what you're doing, what your uke/partner is doing and work toward building the connections and such that are needed to eventually get to normal application and it doesn't get any easier.

To address the other aspects of your post. I do NOT do this stuff because I feel there is anything ineffective or wrong with my aikido or the aikido as taught by our small organization. I have been in fights with my aikido and successfully used it to defend myself. Not matches or sport, but fights where I knew there were no rules to protect me so I damned well better protect myself. I am not alone in that within our organization either. I don't say that to portray myself as some sort of badass. I know good and well there are untold numbers of people who could kick my ass, but the notion that all aikido is weak and "doesn't work" and that everyone who practices it is being sold some snake oil is and always will be laughable to me. Good technical aikido, hard training and honest training (if you don't move, you WILL get hit) can still provide you with a good and effective set of self defense tools. I know this is not the reality of most aikido, but I knew that twenty years ago too. I was here back in 2000 saying many of the same things Tony says today, albeit (hopefully) without the insulting tone. Had I continued to hang around here I would have very likely been one of the people calling Mike and Dan idiots as I relayed the above story. Fortunately for me I was not, but when I returned and started reading their posts, I wanted too, but the curious nature of age is that it changes us. So rather than do that I continued to read and I found myself getting more and more interested. I eventually found some local people who were working on this stuff and actually had some demonstrable skill. I went in as a skeptic, but with an open mind. We still come from a ki society background and I honestly believed that I did "relaxed" pretty darned well. I was wrong and I immediately knew that what they were doing was very different, in body, than what I had done and I wanted it. Not because I felt that what I was doing was weak, but because I honestly felt that it was the path to something "more" than what I was doing. As I've developed what tiny skill I have I find so many connections to the things Ueshiba used to say that were written off as "spritual gibberish" and I love that. I find it fascinating that the human body can do some of this stuff. I can hardly do anything these days without mentally taking stock of what's happening within my body and then making adjustments to try and get some measure of IP training out of it or see if using my body that way, the correct way, yields a different result.

Anyway, I got off on a ramble there, but the point is that I made myself one of the "chosen few" and anyone who is interested can do the same with just a little effort. People who are unhappy with their aikido, feel cheated by it or whatever and are waiting to have something proven to them before making efforts to fix it, probably don't have the mindset to do it in the first place. They could have done plenty to fix their aikido before Mike and Dan showed up and they didn't, so their disappointment and trust issues are largely their own.

[Tony Wagstaffe]

Tony, don't take the ecky thump thing as too offensive ;) Just realised is an ancient and traditional martial art originating from Lancashire up North. :D

I do the 'ampshire 'og version..... ;)

And good for you, that you got off your "ass".....;)

[Chris Li]

Chris, I'm not talking of being available here. I'm talking of being available where you are. How many aikido dojo are operating in USA?, and in Japan?, and in France? How many of them offer IP/Aiki training ater all those years of talking.

Imagine for a moment I move to a big city (LA, NYC, Paris, Tokyo) wiht lots of fine and famous Aikido dojo. What is really available regarding IP/Aiki?

Dan Harden and Mike Sigman are both in the US. Ark has visited the US. Both of them and Ark have been to Europe.

For example, in Honolulu, which is a smallish city, Dan Harden has been here a number of times and will be back in July. Mike Sigman will be here in July, Sam Chin will be here in September.

Excuses are vanishing...

There are no Shodokan (Tomiki) dojo in Honolulu, does that mean that it is an "underground" art?

Demos, demos and more demos. Except for some rare clips of Ushiro sensei, nothing that can make an skeptic pack and move.

Plenty there if you know what you're looking at. Not much, maybe, if you don't. That's one reason why the videos that everyone demands are of such little use. Get yourself somewhere that you can get your hands on one of those guys.

Best,

Chris

[Tony Wagstaffe]

The difference is that in all of those instances you have a more immediate ROI vs. internal training. If you roll for a week straight with someone who is good, you should be demonstrably better at the end of that week. Internal training requires a reconditioning and retraining of the body that is tiring, both mentally and physically and to be perfectly honest, BORING at the onset. That's a hard thing for a lot of people to do, especially when even after that initial hump, it's still not something that you can really "use" in the same sense as you could other more direct training. It's just the initial hump that you need to get over in order to really be able to feel what you're doing, what your uke/partner is doing and work toward building the connections and such that are needed to eventually get to normal application and it doesn't get any easier.

To address the other aspects of your post. I do NOT do this stuff because I feel there is anything ineffective or wrong with my aikido or the aikido as taught by our small organization. I have been in fights with my aikido and successfully used it to defend myself. Not matches or sport, but fights where I knew there were no rules to protect me so I damned well better protect myself. I am not alone in that within our organization either. I don't say that to portray myself as some sort of badass. I know good and well there are untold numbers of people who could kick my ass, but the notion that all aikido is weak and "doesn't work" and that everyone who practices it is being sold some snake oil is and always will be laughable to me. Good technical aikido, hard training and honest training (if you don't move, you WILL get hit) can still provide you with a good and effective set of self defense tools. I know this is not the reality of most aikido, but I knew that twenty years ago too. I was here back in 2000 saying many of the same things Tony says today, albeit (hopefully) without the insulting tone. Had I continued to hang around here I would have very likely been one of the people calling Mike and Dan idiots as I relayed the above story. Fortunately for me I was not, but when I returned and started reading their posts, I wanted too, but the curious nature of age is that it changes us. So rather than do that I continued to read and I found myself getting more and more interested. I eventually found some local people who were working on this stuff and actually had some demonstrable skill. I went in as a skeptic, but with an open mind. We still come from a ki society background and I honestly believed that I did "relaxed" pretty darned well. I was wrong and I immediately knew that what they were doing was very different, in body, than what I had done and I wanted it. Not because I felt that what I was doing was weak, but because I honestly felt that it was the path to something "more" than what I was doing. As I've developed what tiny skill I have I find so many connections to the things Ueshiba used to say that were written off as "spritual gibberish" and I love that. I find it fascinating that the human body can do some of this stuff. I can hardly do anything these days without mentally taking stock of what's happening within my body and then making adjustments to try and get some measure of IP training out of it or see if using my body that way, the correct way, yields a different result.

Anyway, I got off on a ramble there, but the point is that I made myself one of the "chosen few" and anyone who is interested can do the same with just a little effort. People who are unhappy with their aikido, feel cheated by it or whatever and are waiting to have something proven to them before making efforts to fix it, probably don't have the mindset to do it in the first place. They could have done plenty to fix their aikido before Mike and Dan showed up and they didn't, so their disappointment and trust issues are largely their own.

There is a slight difference from insulting to pee taking, if anyone felt "insulted" I suggest you get a reality check, go and work as a doorman or cabbie :D or anyone who has had to deal with the public in general perse..... better still become a serviceman in your particular country, you will develop a much thicker skin, almost rhino like in your attitude and you will smile and generally amuse yourself that you are being so kind to them........ :yuck: :hypno: :crazy: :rolleyes: :D

[chillzATL]

There is a slight difference from insulting to pee taking, if anyone felt "insulted" I suggest you get a reality check, go and work as a doorman or cabbie :D or anyone who has had to deal with the public in general perse..... better still become a serviceman in your particular country, you will develop a much thicker skin, almost rhino like in your attitude and you will smile and generally amuse yourself that you are being so kind to them........ :yuck: :hypno: :crazy: :rolleyes: :D

Tony,

If you were to walk into a room full of people whom you do not know and you start busting their balls and as a result, they didn't like you, would you honestly try to say that the problem is that they don't have a thick enough skin and that's why they don't get you? Are you kidding me? YOu seriously wouldn't for one second think that maybe, MAYBE, it's just that you're going a little to far before these people know you and maybe, just maybe you should take it back a notch so that they can get to know you a little so that through that relationship they cna better take your ball busting? It is you sir, who needs the reality check.

[L. Camejo]

This is interesting and I'd love to hear more about it, but you do realize that this is exactly the criticism that is being leveled against traditional aikido training, don't you? The external forms are taught but not the understanding of internals that gives the external form life, and because they're internal it's very hard to figure them out on one's own. So we all end up practicing pretty movements that don't mean anything. We have to bring an understanding of these aspects of "mind" back into our training explicitly if we want to elevate aikido as an art.Hi Hugh,
I totally agree. I for one have never leveraged any criticism against "traditional" training. I have trained in almost every major Aikido method to get an idea of what may not be taught from my paradigm and I have learned much from those in "traditional" aikido as well as Yoshinkan and even Ki no Kenkyukai. Not all about "IP" but important things nevertheless.

I'm interested that Tomiki considered the IP stuff "tricks". What's a trick and what's core to aikido? Good technique? Joint locks? Using movement to lead uke off balance? IP? Aikido brings all those together into a unified whole, which is part of what makes it such a fascinating art. I have to say tho, so far as I'm concerned, it's the internal connection (which IP enables) that matters. Without that, the rest is just sound and fury.To clarify, Tomiki did not consider IP stuff "tricks" he considered it "showing off" apparently. I guess he saw Aiki as a critical element embodied in everything one does in Aikijujutsu. It is a core technical concept that influences and controls everything from how one stands, moves, thinks, applies throws, locks etc. As a result (and maybe due to Judo's influence) he was more akin to teach the elements of Aiki as part of other technical concepts such as kuzushi and tai sabaki instead of using raw examples such as a "push test" for example. Like I said before, it would appear in his technique but he would not strip the "aiki" out and show it in an isolated manner per se. Was this a good idea, I don't know. However there are reports where he did things commonly associated with IP or aiki knowledge. One occurence was referenced by Nariyama Shihan of the Shodokan. It is somewhere on Aikiweb and also on the Shodokan website.

I'm giving my own views here of course as I am not an expert in this area.

Regards

LC

[oisin bourke]

Plenty there if you know what you're looking at. Not much, maybe, if you don't. That's one reason why the videos that everyone demands are of such little use. Get yourself somewhere that you can get your hands on one of those guys.

Best,

Chris

Chris, what is there that you see in the videos of Horikawa and Okamoto? How are they similar/ different? What should one be looking at?

[Demetrio Cereijo]

Anyway, I got off on a ramble there, but the point is that I made myself one of the "chosen few" and anyone who is interested can do the same with just a little effort. People who are unhappy with their aikido, feel cheated by it or whatever and are waiting to have something proven to them before making efforts to fix it, probably don't have the mindset to do it in the first place. They could have done plenty to fix their aikido before Mike and Dan showed up and they didn't, so their disappointment and trust issues are largely their own.
Hi Jason,

I think I understad what you mean and I've also looking to fix my issues with aikido (going outside aikido, of course, I'm a lost cause for aikido) and helping others to find quality IP/Aiki instruction also outside of aikido because, the people who is teaching it, people like Dan, Mike, Ark, Howard, Ushiro, etc., are not aikido instructors.

Dan Harden and Mike Sigman are both in the US. Ark has visited the US. Both of them and Ark have been to Europe.

For example, in Honolulu, which is a smallish city, Dan Harden has been here a number of times and will be back in July. Mike Sigman will be here in July, Sam Chin will be here in September.

Excuses are vanishing...
Hi Chris,

Which one of them is an aikido shihan from a recognized aikido org?

There are no Shodokan (Tomiki) dojo in Honolulu, does that mean that it is an "underground" art?
It could be argued Shodokan is not aikido in a strict sense as it's ouside of the aikido iemoto system and their teaching methods are in contradiction with founder's and his heirs ideals about what aikido is.

In any case, I would't say Shodokan is mainstream aikido.

Plenty there if you know what you're looking at. Not much, maybe, if you don't. That's one reason why the videos that everyone demands are of such little use.
What if the little use ot these clips is because they don't show clearly the effects of IP/Aiki in resisting, uncooperative and trained opponents? Why there are no videos of IP/Aiki with "aliveness"?

Anyway, may be I'm wrong in my predictions about IP/Aiki being taught in the majority of aikido dojo in the next 20 or 30 years. Time will tell but I don't see it happening.

Cheers.

[Chris Li]

Chris, what is there that you see in the videos of Horikawa and Okamoto? How are they similar/ different? What should one be looking at?

Well, If I talk about it with my guys then we all know what we're talking about, because we feel each other all the time, but it's hard to talk about it without a common vocabulary - that's why I said that videos are of limited use.

Best,

Chris

[Chris Li]

Hi Jason,

I think I understad what you mean and I've also looking to fix my issues with aikido (going outside aikido, of course, I'm a lost cause for aikido) and helping others to find quality IP/Aiki instruction also outside of aikido because, the people who is teaching it, people like Dan, Mike, Ark, Howard, Ushiro, etc., are not aikido instructors.

Hi Chris,

Which one of them is an aikido shihan from a recognized aikido org?

Why does that matter?

If that kind of thing matters, there are a number of "recognized aikido shihan from recognized aikido organizations" working with this stuff.

But it really shouldn't make a difference as to whether you yourself are working on it or not.

In any case, as far as I'm concerned, "Aikido" is whatever Ueshiba was doing, and everything that I've seen Dan do fits in just fine.


It could be argued Shodokan is not aikido in a strict sense as it's ouside of the aikido iemoto system and their teaching methods are in contradiction with founder's and his heirs ideals about what aikido is.

In any case, I would't say Shodokan is mainstream aikido.


But it's not an "underground art", which was my point. There are no Nishio style dojo in Honolulu either, but that doesn't mean that Nishio style (which is Aikikai) is an "underground art" either.

What if the little use ot these clips is because they don't show clearly the effects of IP/Aiki in resisting, uncooperative and trained opponents? Why there are no videos of IP/Aiki with "aliveness"?

Like I said, better to get yourself where you can get your hands on someone than waiting around for someone to put it on TV.

Best,

Chris

[oisin bourke]

Well, If I talk about it with my guys then we all know what we're talking about, because we feel each other all the time, but it's hard to talk about it without a common vocabulary - that's why I said that videos are of limited use.

Best,

Chris

Well, what vocabulary do you use?

[Demetrio Cereijo]

Why does that matter?
It matters because the people who is teaching it are not aikido instructors.

If that kind of thing matters, there are a number of "recognized aikido shihan from recognized aikido organizations" working with this stuff.
A handful of them, on their own, in a world with thousands of aikido dojo.

But it really shouldn't make a difference as to whether you yourself are working on it or not.
But it makes a difference. IP/Aiki has to be obtained outside of aikido. For an art which claims to be the path of Aiki having to go outside for it is sad, and it's sadder that this fact is not going to change.

In any case, as far as I'm concerned, "Aikido" is whatever Ueshiba was doing, and everything that I've seen Dan do fits in just fine.
Did you train with founder? Sorry, I was not aware of that.

But it's not an "underground art", which was my point. There are no Nishio style dojo in Honolulu either, but that doesn't mean that Nishio style (which is Aikikai) is an "underground art" either.
Semantics.

Like I said, better to get yourself where you can get your hands on someone than waiting around for someone to put it on TV.
I'm not waiting anymore Chris, I went back to "sports" time ago. No more leaps of faith for me.

[Chris Li]

Well, what vocabulary do you use?

Well, vocabulary that we all understand. The reason that it's hard to describe to someone you've never met is the same reason why it's hard (impossible, I would say) to learn Aikido from a book to any reasonable level. Could you learn to be an opera singer from a book? Probably not - but if you were already an opera singer you could probably get a fair amount of useful information from that book.

Best,

Chris

[Chris Li]

It matters because the people who is teaching it are not aikido instructors.

There are Aikido instructors studying and teaching this, as I said before.

A handful of them, on their own, in a world with thousands of aikido dojo.

Ten dojo or a hundred, I'm not sure that it matters that much. What matters is that the information is being publicly taught and is spreading. How many people were teaching Aikido in 1935? One, in a world with thousands of martial arts dojo.

But it makes a difference. IP/Aiki has to be obtained outside of aikido. For an art which claims to be the path of Aiki having to go outside for it is sad, and it's sadder that this fact is not going to change.

Where did Ueshiba go for Aiki? Why would it be wrong to go to the source if there is something that you don't understand? And as I said, there are already "recognized Aikido shihan" studying and teaching this stuff, so it has already changed.


Did you train with founder? Sorry, I was not aware of that.


And you point is what? I've been in Aikido long enough to form a reasonable opinion. Watanabe trained with the founder, Saito trained with the founder - they had very different opinions. Training with the founder is no magic touchstone for veracity.


Semantics.


Okay, explain to me semantically why something that is being taught publicly is an "underground art".


I'm not waiting anymore Chris, I went back to "sports" time ago. No more leaps of faith for me.

And yet - you're still spending day after day hanging around on Aikido forums...

It's really not much of a leap - all it takes is a weekend workshop.

Best,

Chris

[chillzATL]

Hi Jason,

I think I understad what you mean and I've also looking to fix my issues with aikido (going outside aikido, of course, I'm a lost cause for aikido) and helping others to find quality IP/Aiki instruction also outside of aikido because, the people who is teaching it, people like Dan, Mike, Ark, Howard, Ushiro, etc., are not aikido instructors.

I think that's just the reality that we have to accept for now and IMO, it's not a bad thing. It makes it difficult as far as integrating these things into aikido as a whole, but that's temporary. There's going to be a point in the future where the people who are just jr. instructors (if that even) in their orgs now are going to be the shihans and are going to be running the show. So how they do things and what they integrate in their training is up to them. THat's when change will happen. Looking to change things from the bottom up, now, is a lost cause i'm afraid. at least in the larger orgs and such. Smaller orgs or independant dojos have a much easier time of it. The next 20 years could, no should, be a very interesting time for aikido as a whole.

[oisin bourke]

Well, vocabulary that we all understand. The reason that it's hard to describe to someone you've never met is the same reason why it's hard (impossible, I would say) to learn Aikido from a book to any reasonable level. Could you learn to be an opera singer from a book? Probably not - but if you were already an opera singer you could probably get a fair amount of useful information from that book.

Best,

Chris

Well, why not try and describe it? There seems to be plenty of people on Aikiweb who have attended various Internal Strength seminars at this stage, notwithstanding their own training.

At best, you might find that concepts chime with other people's experiences and that will help clarify one's own understanding. At worst, well, nobody will know what you're talking about, so no harm done:) Aikiweb is a discussion forum, after all.

[Chris Li]

Well, why not try and describe it? There seems to be plenty of people on Aikiweb who have attended various Internal Strength seminars at this stage, notwithstanding their own training.

At best, you might find that concepts chime with other people's experiences and that will help clarify one's own understanding. At worst, well, nobody will know what you're talking about, so no harm done:) Aikiweb is a discussion forum, after all.

Well I have, in other forums, but I don't want to get into too much detail because:


As I said, there are inherent difficulties.
My personal level is so abysmally low.


Best,

Chris

[Demetrio Cereijo]

Hi Chris,

Lets agree to disagree and that's all.

But,
And you point is what? I've been in Aikido long enough to form a reasonable opinion. Watanabe trained with the founder, Saito trained with the founder - they had very different opinions. Training with the founder is no magic touchstone for veracity.
My point is that I didn't knew if you trained with the founder.

Okay, explain to me semantically why something that is being taught publicly is an "underground art".
Graffiti is underground art, punk is underground music. Both are in public view but not mainstream.

And yet - you're still spending day after day hanging around on Aikido forums...
And in other martial art forums, and reading books, and in the mat...sometimes one learns interesting things in unexpected places (and knows nice people too).

It's really not much of a leap - all it takes is a weekend workshop.
Or a cheap camera and 5 minutes of tape. Five min. of your time demonstrating unequivocally the effects of IP/Aiki training to a guy in the other side of the world is asking too much?

BTW, I want to make clear I'm not saying IP/Aiki doesn't exist. What I'm saying is IP/Aiki training is not going to be found in the majority of aikido dojo around. The IP/Aiki proponents are not going to make aikido change.

Regards

@Jason,

I think you're overly optimistic. I hope to review this thread in 2030 and see which one of us is going to pay the beers. :)

Cheers.

[oisin bourke]

Well I have, in other forums, but I don't want to get into too much detail because:


As I said, there are inherent difficulties.
My personal level is so abysmally low.


Best,

Chris

Fair enough, but you did comment that you had some level of understanding of what Shihan level practitioners (In Daito Ryu in this case) were doing from video clips.I believe you also have had some experience of DR when in Japan, so I was interested to read you point of views on this.

You also mentioned that senior teachers like Yamaguchi could do some skills, but could not explain or analyze what they were doing,
and that the "Japanese" model is an inferior vehicle for transmitting these skills compared to the "Western" model.

I don't disagree with this view BTW, but surely an open transmission of these skills includes open discussion an analysis?

Most people interested in this area are complete beginners in any event.

[Tony Wagstaffe]

Tony,

If you were to walk into a room full of people whom you do not know and you start busting their balls and as a result, they didn't like you, would you honestly try to say that the problem is that they don't have a thick enough skin and that's why they don't get you? Are you kidding me? YOu seriously wouldn't for one second think that maybe, MAYBE, it's just that you're going a little to far before these people know you and maybe, just maybe you should take it back a notch so that they can get to know you a little so that through that relationship they cna better take your ball busting? It is you sir, who needs the reality check.

I don't think so Jason I really do think that many on AW are somewhat over sensitive and therein lies the reality check? It gives me an idea as to some of the characters in the "clique" that doesn't exist on this site, As for ball busting? ...... Blimey! If you guys are that sensitive maybe it's a good thing I am around....:D at least it keeps it lively if nothing else ;) Maybe I should use a feather and just tickle them, would that suit you?

[graham christian]

I must say that in all the videos pointed to of people doing ip I cannot see personally any relationship to what O'Sensei did.

I do see certain effects demonstrated and why that can lead to some calling them 'tricks' or indeed showing off. That doesn't mean what they are doing is not real but it doesn't impress me. Why? Because over the years I have learned many ways of doing things that look impressive and yet find in myself it's o.k. as part of learning but not what I call Aikido. In fact onlookers love those things and want to know how it's done but that to me defeats the purpose of doing Aikido unless I want to be a circus act.

When I watch O'Sensei the main and most enduring thing I see is harmonious motion. I see an ability to unerringly lead the attacker, to smoothly and magically almost 'dissappear' and 'reappear' due to his command over correct motion and spacial awareness. When the person attacks he is indeed already behind them.

Of course many who trained with O'Sensei were taken aback by his 'power' and and thus many have stated as much and yet I feel it is this point that leads people astray. How to be more powerful. So much said about his power and his strength and yet not so much emphasised on his Aiki motion. Thus people are blinded in my opinion.

I find those who also trained with O'Sensei and yet prefer to talk about and demonstrate principles and how they relate to harmonious motion, connection and tachnique generally do not do these 'impressive' demos of 'magical' (yet real,depending) power.

So back to the thread and Tomiki. Not my style and to bring a smile to tony's face-not my cup of tea, I'm quite'cosy' with what I do. But seriously though, when I watch the motions done, the basic motions in Tomiki I see sliding movement in all eight directions designed to harmonize and enter etc. Excellent. His aim as with most Aikido Shihans was to give a method that leads towards the goal of harmony.

These are my observations I have been drawn to offer be they as they are.

The only personal gripe I have really is 'when will people realize that true power lies in harmony.'

Regards.G.

[Chris Li]

Fair enough, but you did comment that you had some level of understanding of what Shihan level practitioners (In Daito Ryu in this case) were doing from video clips.I believe you also have had some experience of DR when in Japan, so I was interested to read you point of views on this.

You also mentioned that senior teachers like Yamaguchi could do some skills, but could not explain or analyze what they were doing,
and that the "Japanese" model is an inferior vehicle for transmitting these skills compared to the "Western" model.

I don't disagree with this view BTW, but surely an open transmission of these skills includes open discussion an analysis?

Most people interested in this area are complete beginners in any event.

I did a few years with various Daito-ryu groups, but I was never really a Daito-ryu guy. I went to a lot of Yamaguchi's classes - they were almost all the same, and almost nobody ever seemed to be doing quite what he was. My experience with Yamaguchi's students is that a few of them managed to get something at some level, but had a hard time explaining it or transmitting it themselves.

As I said, we discuss things openly - feel free to come by anytime :)

Best,

Chris

[chillzATL]

Fair enough, but you did comment that you had some level of understanding of what Shihan level practitioners (In Daito Ryu in this case) were doing from video clips.I believe you also have had some experience of DR when in Japan, so I was interested to read you point of views on this.

You also mentioned that senior teachers like Yamaguchi could do some skills, but could not explain or analyze what they were doing,
and that the "Japanese" model is an inferior vehicle for transmitting these skills compared to the "Western" model.

I don't disagree with this view BTW, but surely an open transmission of these skills includes open discussion an analysis?

Most people interested in this area are complete beginners in any event.

What exactly would you like to discuss and analyze Oisin? Just some aspect of internal power? While I do not disagree with Chris that it is a nebulous subject, I do feel it is one that can be discussed to some degree, with the caveat that you either have to at some point accept that what you're being told is possible or (and even better) actually get out and go work with some people who have some level of demonstrable skill so that you can feel that it possible.

[Gorgeous George]

I did a few years with various Daito-ryu groups, but I was never really a Daito-ryu guy. I went to a lot of Yamaguchi's classes - they were almost all the same, and almost nobody ever seemed to be doing quite what he was. My experience with Yamaguchi's students is that a few of them managed to get something at some level, but had a hard time explaining it or transmitting it themselves.

As I said, we discuss things openly - feel free to come by anytime :)

Best,

Chris

I'm curious: what do you think of Seishiro Endo sensei?

[Chris Li]

I'm curious: what do you think of Seishiro Endo sensei?

It's been more than 25 years since I spent much time in his classes at hombu. At the time, he was very personable and quite powerful, in the relaxed, Yamaguchi style. He used to sweep my feet out a lot.

Best,

Chris

[Tony Wagstaffe]

I must say that in all the videos pointed to of people doing ip I cannot see personally any relationship to what O'Sensei did.

I do see certain effects demonstrated and why that can lead to some calling them 'tricks' or indeed showing off. That doesn't mean what they are doing is not real but it doesn't impress me. Why? Because over the years I have learned many ways of doing things that look impressive and yet find in myself it's o.k. as part of learning but not what I call Aikido. In fact onlookers love those things and want to know how it's done but that to me defeats the purpose of doing Aikido unless I want to be a circus act.

When I watch O'Sensei the main and most enduring thing I see is harmonious motion. I see an ability to unerringly lead the attacker, to smoothly and magically almost 'dissappear' and 'reappear' due to his command over correct motion and spacial awareness. When the person attacks he is indeed already behind them.

Of course many who trained with O'Sensei were taken aback by his 'power' and and thus many have stated as much and yet I feel it is this point that leads people astray. How to be more powerful. So much said about his power and his strength and yet not so much emphasised on his Aiki motion. Thus people are blinded in my opinion.

I find those who also trained with O'Sensei and yet prefer to talk about and demonstrate principles and how they relate to harmonious motion, connection and tachnique generally do not do these 'impressive' demos of 'magical' (yet real,depending) power.

So back to the thread and Tomiki. Not my style and to bring a smile to tony's face-not my cup of tea, I'm quite'cosy' with what I do. But seriously though, when I watch the motions done, the basic motions in Tomiki I see sliding movement in all eight directions designed to harmonize and enter etc. Excellent. His aim as with most Aikido Shihans was to give a method that leads towards the goal of harmony.

These are my observations I have been drawn to offer be they as they are.

The only personal gripe I have really is 'when will people realize that true power lies in harmony.'

Regards.G.

:) .......;)

[Demetrio Cereijo]

I do see certain effects demonstrated and why that can lead to some calling them 'tricks' or indeed showing off. That doesn't mean what they are doing is not real but it doesn't impress me. Why? Because over the years I have learned many ways of doing things that look impressive and yet find in myself it's o.k. as part of learning but not what I call Aikido. In fact onlookers love those things and want to know how it's done but that to me defeats the purpose of doing Aikido unless I want to be a circus act.

I like this guy.

[RonRagusa]

When I watch O'Sensei the main and most enduring thing I see is harmonious motion.

Hi Graham -

Overall, nice post.

It's a shame that the word 'harmony' has developed such a, as Tony might say, 'woo-woo' reputation. When applied to two people moving relative to one another, the word simply describes motion in concert, not conflict.

Of course many who trained with O'Sensei were taken aback by his 'power' and and thus many have stated as much and yet I feel it is this point that leads people astray. How to be more powerful. So much said about his power and his strength and yet not so much emphasised on his Aiki motion. Thus people are blinded in my opinion.

Many of O Sensei's power demonstrations were related to pointing out how one can remain still, stable and centered while being stressed as a result of being pushed, pulled or lifted. Aikido happens when one combines this ability with harmonious motion. Without the ability to remain stable and centered while in motion it is easy for an attacker to take the defenders balance and turn the tables on him.

People get blinded on both sides of the divide, failing to realize that there is, in reality, no divide and that Aikido is a product of integrating both.

I find those who also trained with O'Sensei and yet prefer to talk about and demonstrate principles and how they relate to harmonious motion, connection and tachnique generally do not do these 'impressive' demos of 'magical' (yet real,depending) power.

When used at events in an effort to recruit students power demonstrations can prove to be an effective tool. Their real value however is in the role of exercises used to find and strengthen one's center.

So back to the thread and Tomiki. Not my style and to bring a smile to tony's face-not my cup of tea, I'm quite'cosy' with what I do. But seriously though, when I watch the motions done, the basic motions in Tomiki I see sliding movement in all eight directions designed to harmonize and enter etc. Excellent. His aim as with most Aikido Shihans was to give a method that leads towards the goal of harmony.

Agreed. Just another path to travel. The ability to find Aikido along many different roads is part of what makes it such a rich and appealing art.

The only personal gripe I have really is 'when will people realize that true power lies in harmony.'

Folks move along at their own pace Graham. At any given moment we are all where we are and moving forward. Transform your gripe into a wish and let it go. :)

Best to you.

Ron

[oisin bourke]

I did a few years with various Daito-ryu groups, but I was never really a Daito-ryu guy. I went to a lot of Yamaguchi's classes - they were almost all the same, and almost nobody ever seemed to be doing quite what he was. My experience with Yamaguchi's students is that a few of them managed to get something at some level, but had a hard time explaining it or transmitting it themselves.

As I said, we discuss things openly - feel free to come by anytime :)

Best,

Chris

Chris, thanks for the invitation. Hawaii and some training in Aiki sounds awesome. I actually mentioned to my wife a couple of months ago: "Hey, let's go to Hawaii for a little break!", and I got "the look", followed by "why do you suddenly want to go to Hawaii? You NEVER wanted to go to Hawaii before."

I think she suspects something:)

Oh well, I suppose I'm just going to have to keep feeding her the weather reports.

Regards,

[oisin bourke]

What exactly would you like to discuss and analyze Oisin? Just some aspect of internal power? While I do not disagree with Chris that it is a nebulous subject, I do feel it is one that can be discussed to some degree, with the caveat that you either have to at some point accept that what you're being told is possible or (and even better) actually get out and go work with some people who have some level of demonstrable skill so that you can feel that it possible.

Hi Jason,

What peaked my interest was Chris's comments about some Daito Ryu practitioners.

I don't know Chris personally, but I know that he has relatively extensive knowledge of training in Aikido and Daito Ryu, both inside Japan and out. Along with his knowledge of the language/culture and exposure to some internal practices recently, I'd find his comments well worth paying attention to.

That being said, if you, or others, who have had exposure to IP training would like to add comments on videos of Horikawa Kodo or Okamoto etc; as a DR practitioner, I'd love to read them.

I completely agree that there's no substitute for flesh and bone training, but this is a virtual discussion forum.

If one attempts to explain body/mind skills, I believe it helps the describer understand what they are (or are not) doing.

In any case, if you wish to comment, perhaps a new thread would be in order, as this is way off topic (my fault!)

Regards,

[Chris Li]

Chris, thanks for the invitation. Hawaii and some training in Aiki sounds awesome. I actually mentioned to my wife a couple of months ago: "Hey, let's go to Hawaii for a little break!", and I got "the look", followed by "why do you suddenly want to go to Hawaii? You NEVER wanted to go to Hawaii before."

I think she suspects something:)

Oh well, I suppose I'm just going to have to keep feeding her the weather reports.

Regards,

Dan will be coming down for a workshop 4th of July weekend and Mike will be coming down July 23/24. Takeshi Yamashima (who was one of Yamaguchi's long time students) will be coming down at the end of July (29/30/31). Plenty of fun this summer! (plenty of good weather too)

Best,

Chris

[oisin bourke]

Dan will be coming down for a workshop 4th of July weekend and Mike will be coming down July 23/24. Takeshi Yamashima (who was one of Yamaguchi's long time students) will be coming down at the end of July (29/30/31). Plenty of fun this summer! (plenty of good weather too)

Best,

Chris

Good God... You're killing me...

[graham christian]

Hi Graham -

Overall, nice post.

It's a shame that the word 'harmony' has developed such a, as Tony might say, 'woo-woo' reputation. When applied to two people moving relative to one another, the word simply describes motion in concert, not conflict.

Many of O Sensei's power demonstrations were related to pointing out how one can remain still, stable and centered while being stressed as a result of being pushed, pulled or lifted. Aikido happens when one combines this ability with harmonious motion. Without the ability to remain stable and centered while in motion it is easy for an attacker to take the defenders balance and turn the tables on him.

People get blinded on both sides of the divide, failing to realize that there is, in reality, no divide and that Aikido is a product of integrating both.

When used at events in an effort to recruit students power demonstrations can prove to be an effective tool. Their real value however is in the role of exercises used to find and strengthen one's center.

Agreed. Just another path to travel. The ability to find Aikido along many different roads is part of what makes it such a rich and appealing art.

Folks move along at their own pace Graham. At any given moment we are all where we are and moving forward. Transform your gripe into a wish and let it go. :)

Best to you.

Ron

Hi Ron.

Just one point I need to clear here and that is hwat I meant by 'power'.

I agree that when O'Sensei did what you call power demonstrations they were for reasons as you describe ie: to show the potential we have to be stable in the face of and thus this being another major aspect of Aikido. However this I call stability and indeed lead people away from the view of this as power but rather to the view that they can gain the ability to increase their stability in the face of life, living, being attacked et.al.

This part of Aikido leads to a person in life being more able to face problems, wind ups, situations etc. without whining and complaining and so much more.

No, the 'power' of which I refer to is the use of principles in a way that sends someone flying or cavorting about in an uncontrolled manner or such like. To me this is an abuse of power and thus in my experience, done to the unaware I file as tricks.

The one thing I admire about the more traditional styles or so called harder styles is that they steer people away from that arrogance.

One thing I think many miss is the fact that any Shihan worth his salt should be teaching the students how to be more centered and stable too and if they did that then the studends wouldn't be flying off and cavorting about like bambi on ice.

Thus I see the good Shihans as those who demonstrate and share. The bad ones I see as those who demonstrate and boost their own ego.

Good talking to you. G.

[chillzATL]

Hi Jason,

What peaked my interest was Chris's comments about some Daito Ryu practitioners.

I don't know Chris personally, but I know that he has relatively extensive knowledge of training in Aikido and Daito Ryu, both inside Japan and out. Along with his knowledge of the language/culture and exposure to some internal practices recently, I'd find his comments well worth paying attention to.

That being said, if you, or others, who have had exposure to IP training would like to add comments on videos of Horikawa Kodo or Okamoto etc; as a DR practitioner, I'd love to read them.

I completely agree that there's no substitute for flesh and bone training, but this is a virtual discussion forum.

If one attempts to explain body/mind skills, I believe it helps the describer understand what they are (or are not) doing.

In any case, if you wish to comment, perhaps a new thread would be in order, as this is way off topic (my fault!)

Regards,

I have one video I can reference:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXNqdl3-KFo

Specifically the very beginning, but the principle he's demonstrating throughout is ok, though a bit too floppish. At least he's not doing the electricity type demo that is often seen.

Anyway, the beginning is to me, great. He's connecting to uke's center, getting under them and lifting his arms (and uke) without using his shoulders/chest/biceps, very smooth and relaxed and uke is actually putting some weight into him. It takes a very specific type of body training to be able to do that.

Have someone hold a jo arms lenght out from them, horizontal. you stand facinng them and also grab the jo at arms length and try to raise the jo up with them putting just a little bit of weight into the jo and see if you can do it using nothing but your arms, but without using yoru shoulders/chest/arms. To call it hard is a gross understatement.

now stand closer to the jo so that your hips are almost directly under the jo and this time whole holding the jo in place, drop your hips down a foot or so (keep your hands on the jo and at the same level they were before dropping your hips) and kind of get under the jo. Now keep the distance between your hand and hips consistent and just stand up. While you will probably still have tension in your shoulders/chest/etc to support the jo, you should see that it's much easier to lift the jo without introducing a whole lot more tension into your body.

In that video, that's what Horikawa is doing, but without physically moving his center to get under uke and without using the normal muscles one would use to do what he's doing. The rest of the demos on the vid are pretty much an extension of that, connecting to uke's center, getting under them and moving them where their balance isn't. That's also pretty much every aikido technique you'll see as done by o'sensei, regardless of era.

[ewolput]

Yamada's movie is in a dvd produced by Hal Sharp, judoka, and the main title of the DVD is Fukko Judo by Tadayuki Satoh.

TADAYUKI SATOU DEVELOPMENT CLINIC
Fukko (Renaissance) Judo USJA Sanction 11-021
Saturday, February 5, 2011 Pasadena Dojo, 595 Lincoln Ave, Pasadena 91103 9:00 AM – 12:00 PM: (Body movement/ controls and throwing) 12:00 PM – 1:00 PM: Lunch Break (lunch provided)
1:00 PM – 4:00 PM: (Throwing, submissions and self defense applications) $35.00, (DVD $25.00) Please make checks payable to Hal Sharp for clinic fee and for DVD donation
Registration: At event.
Eligibility:
All judokas who are current members of USJF, USJA or USJI and associated Aikido/Jujitsu organizations with insurance.
Clinician: Tadayuki Satou, 7th Dan (Aikido), 6th Dan (Judo) Professor (Shihan) Waseda University, Tokyo, Japan
At the end of WWII Kenji Tomiki, a professor of Calligraphy, Judo and Aikido, was imprisoned by the Soviet Army for three years because he was branded an intellectual. While in his cell he devised a method of Aikido for Judoka. The product of this effort was the Tomiki Akido System, Kodokan Modern Self Defense (Goshin Jutsu) and Police Self Defense (Taiho Jutsu). Satou was a disciple of Tomiki and later developed a series of techniques directly related to Judo which he called Fukko Judo. In 2010 I videoed this amazing system in Tokyo, which we now share with you. These will improve your techniques including throwing, submission holds and self defense applications.
Available at the clinic is a rare video showing Fukko Judo (2010 clinic) and 1955-56 demonstration of Tomiki Aikido System, Taiho Jutsu and Goshin Jutsu. (Donation $25.00)
Hal Sharp, 8th Dan References: Fukko Judo, http://judoforum.com/index.php?/topic/49854-fukko-judo-kito-ryu/ Tomiki, http://www.tomiki.org/tomikiaikido.html
For information contact: Ryan Fukuhara 310.251.6162 / af906@lafn.org

[Sojourner]

Yamada's movie is in a dvd produced by Hal Sharp, judoka, and the main title of the DVD is Fukko Judo by Tadayuki Satoh. Someone gaave me the DVD, I don't know where to buy.

In Tomiki Aikido, the old Ueshiba teachings are kept alive in what is called Koryu no kata, which is basically old prewar teachings from Ueshiba.
Also Iwama style has some original teachings.
In Minoru Mochizuki Yoseikan aikido you can find original prewar teachning........

Maybe others can add more

The Koryu no kata does seem quite interesting and worth some further investivation, my understanding was that the Yoshinkan style of Gozo Shioda was regarded to be prewar style Aikido also?