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Red Beetle
04-20-2011, 11:14 PM
Kubinage is very cool.
Here's a vid showing a couple of ways of setting up the technique.
Does anyone have any neat ways of setting this up?
Feel free to share!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiuV2-8ipDc&feature=channel_video_title

Thanks guys and
train safely!

sakumeikan
04-21-2011, 02:44 AM
Kubinage is very cool.
Here's a vid showing a couple of ways of setting up the technique.
Does anyone have any neat ways of setting this up?
Feel free to share!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiuV2-8ipDc&feature=channel_video_title

Thanks guys and
train safely!

Dear Monty,
While I think the young lads are keen and do this waza pretty good, I personally would be a bit concerned for their welfare.This waza is potentially dangerous.Safety issues are needed here.
Cheers, Joe.

Marc Abrams
04-21-2011, 07:53 AM
Monty:

They are practicing those techniques very cleanly! I am impressed! I concur with Joe in that those are very dangerous techniques in that the margin of error is very small before significant injuries can occur. I would also work on having them create realistic setups and transitions into those throws. They also need to learn to finish rather than release a technique at that point.

Of course, you have to realize that teaching those kind of techniques to children open them and the teacher up to significant liability if they were to actually use them in a fight with another child and the other child got injured.

Regards,

marc abrams

Russ Q
04-21-2011, 09:34 AM
Good job Nik and Si! Be careful with each other when you start getting tired. As Marc sensei said: there is very little margin for error. Keep it up boys!

Russ

Red Beetle
04-21-2011, 06:31 PM
An old timer told me this was the old snap mare takeover. He said he learned it at the boys club back in the 1950's.
Is he right???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3o5Mxly2OY

Watch that vicious ear-pull finisher at the 2:40 mark!
Ouch!!!:blush:

Oh, there's a head plant at the 5:40 mark!!!
Maybe this can be dangerous in the wrong hands!!!
Look at that guys face!
Good thing he got tossed on a spring loaded floor.

At the 6:20 mark there's a mysterious masked man!
Anyone train with a mask at their dojo?
What if your sensei started wearing a pro-wrestling mask?
How cool would that be?

mathewjgano
04-21-2011, 08:26 PM
Cool!
...Also, love the music!

Tenyu
04-21-2011, 08:35 PM
Monty,

Have the boys' mother seen them practice this?

Is kubinage also taught to children at your Aikido dojo?

David Orange
04-21-2011, 09:11 PM
Kubinage is very cool.
Here's a vid showing a couple of ways of setting up the technique.
Does anyone have any neat ways of setting this up?
Feel free to share!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiuV2-8ipDc&feature=channel_video_title

Thanks guys and
train safely!

Are those your kids?

Pretty impressive, in attitude and bearing as much as in technique.

But don't you worry about joint techniques at that age? How old are they now?

Best to you.

David

mathewjgano
04-21-2011, 09:12 PM
Cool!
...Also, love the music!

...feeling like perhaps I should also include that I would be very leary of my son practicing kubinage. I wrote my above message because Marc already addressed this issue. They do seem to have a nice, clear sequence in the video though.
I'm a little split when it comes to techniques like this because I'm convinced kids can be serious enough to practice safely, but I've seen so many kids (and adults) that aren't/don't.
What is your view of the safety issue? How do you address it?
Take care,
Matt

David Orange
04-21-2011, 09:15 PM
At the 6:20 mark there's a mysterious masked man!
Anyone train with a mask at their dojo?
What if your sensei started wearing a pro-wrestling mask?
How cool would that be?

Monty, is that you in the mask?

I sometimes wear a mask in training. It's a George Bush mask. Scares everbody!

David

David Orange
04-21-2011, 09:41 PM
...feeling like perhaps I should also include that I would be very leary of my son practicing kubinage. I wrote my above message because Marc already addressed this issue. They do seem to have a nice, clear sequence in the video though.
I'm a little split when it comes to techniques like this because I'm convinced kids can be serious enough to practice safely, but I've seen so many kids (and adults) that aren't/don't.
What is your view of the safety issue? How do you address it?
Take care,
Matt

Kubinage doesn't seem any more dangerous than seoi nage, to me. In fact, it seems less likely to head-plant the uke than seoi nage.

In Japan, I remember one little fellow especially, about 4 years old, but when he trained in judo, he had a face like a solid and pure-hearted man.

I think judo is pretty generally safe for kids if you don't drive them to exhaustion. Techniques like kotegaeshi concern me more with children.

FWIW

David

mathewjgano
04-21-2011, 11:55 PM
Kubinage doesn't seem any more dangerous than seoi nage, to me. In fact, it seems less likely to head-plant the uke than seoi nage.

In Japan, I remember one little fellow especially, about 4 years old, but when he trained in judo, he had a face like a solid and pure-hearted man.

I think judo is pretty generally safe for kids if you don't drive them to exhaustion. Techniques like kotegaeshi concern me more with children.

FWIW

David

Hi David,
From what little experience I have, I agree...and the kids seem to be acting in a safe way to me. I'm always a little leary when I see kids grabbing and throwing each other by the head, but that doesn't mean it's necessarily bad. I took many a pile-driver in the late 80's (~10y/o) and never once got hurt, because I was prepared for it and took precautions. I didn't mess around.
So while I do agree with the idea that those are dangerous things to practice, I also think they can be invaluable to learn how to deal with as long as approached with the right mindset.
The school teacher training in me just felt compelled to say something more than "cool!"
Take care,
Matt

sakumeikan
04-22-2011, 12:33 AM
Kubinage doesn't seem any more dangerous than seoi nage, to me. In fact, it seems less likely to head-plant the uke than seoi nage.

In Japan, I remember one little fellow especially, about 4 years old, but when he trained in judo, he had a face like a solid and pure-hearted man.

I think judo is pretty generally safe for kids if you don't drive them to exhaustion. Techniques like kotegaeshi concern me more with children.

FWIW

David

Dear David,
Get kote gaeshi wrong , maybe you get a damaged wrist or dent your shoulder.Get KubiNage wrong the result can be a broken neck/cervical damage. Kids need supervision and
guidance during training. I think this waza being taught to children is acting irresponsible and is potentially dangerous.
Cheers , Joe

Tony Wagstaffe
04-22-2011, 07:40 AM
An old timer told me this was the old snap mare takeover. He said he learned it at the boys club back in the 1950's.
Is he right???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3o5Mxly2OY

Watch that vicious ear-pull finisher at the 2:40 mark!
Ouch!!!:blush:

Oh, there's a head plant at the 5:40 mark!!!
Maybe this can be dangerous in the wrong hands!!!
Look at that guys face!
Good thing he got tossed on a spring loaded floor.

At the 6:20 mark there's a mysterious masked man!
Anyone train with a mask at their dojo?
What if your sensei started wearing a pro-wrestling mask?
How cool would that be?

No I don't need one, I'm ugly enough as it is.....

Have to admit it looks like fun and that nice bouncy ring!! I'd be up for it!!

I think as long as people take care Joe there isn't any harm in it.
I've used in randori once or twice, it isn't allowed Tomiki sport wise technically speaking, but makes a nice variation from time to time.....

JO
04-22-2011, 07:45 AM
My experience with kubinage is that when done well there is less risk of injury to the head and neck than with most other throws because the head and base of neck it supported by the thrower and it is difficult to head plant. When I was a beginner, there was a yudansha that regularly pulled this one out of the blue on me.

PS - From your videos, your kids seem to be learning good ukemi, That goes a long way to avoiding injury. I wish I could get my kids that interested. All I manage is the occasional short class in the basement. Maybe when they're older.

sakumeikan
04-22-2011, 01:54 PM
My experience with kubinage is that when done well there is less risk of injury to the head and neck than with most other throws because the head and base of neck it supported by the thrower and it is difficult to head plant. When I was a beginner, there was a yudansha that regularly pulled this one out of the blue on me.

PS - From your videos, your kids seem to be learning good ukemi, That goes a long way to avoiding injury. I wish I could get my kids that interested. All I manage is the occasional short class in the basement. Maybe when they're older.
Dear Jonathan,
Key sentence is 'when[kubi nage ] is done well there is less risk of injury.Done well,being the key phrase. This applies to all the stuff we do,If its not done well-injury can occur.
Cheers, Joe.

David Orange
04-22-2011, 02:09 PM
Dear David,
Get kote gaeshi wrong , maybe you get a damaged wrist or dent your shoulder.Get KubiNage wrong the result can be a broken neck/cervical damage. Kids need supervision and
guidance during training. I think this waza being taught to children is acting irresponsible and is potentially dangerous.

But what about seoi nage? Kids learn that in Japan from kindergarten age and it seems to leave the head and neck in greater danger than the type of kubinage they show.

Thanks.

David

Tenyu
04-22-2011, 03:01 PM
But what about seoi nage? Kids learn that in Japan from kindergarten age and it seems to leave the head and neck in greater danger than the type of kubinage they show.

Thanks.

David

The difference is seoi nage uses the arm not the neck. There's the possibility of injury in the beginning of the throw just as much as the landing of the throw. A yanked shoulder can be a serious injury but it's never lethal, a yanked neck especially if it's disconnected from uke's center can paralyze or be lethal.

sakumeikan
04-22-2011, 04:58 PM
But what about seoi nage? Kids learn that in Japan from kindergarten age and it seems to leave the head and neck in greater danger than the type of kubinage they show.

Thanks.

David
David,
What shoulder throw are you referring to ?Ippon Seoi Nage or Morote Seoi Nage? Or the variation Seoi otoshi [ my own Tokui waza].None of these waza applies pressure on the neck area as in Kubi Nage.If Tori applies torsion on the neck of Uke, the neck
can break.Seoi Nage the head is almost all the time clear.If anyting a badly executed seoi nage usually injures the collar bone.Collar bone damage is one of the primary injuries in Judo.
Are you a judoka?I have trained with Minatoya, Saburo Matsushita, Kisaburo Watanabe and K.Abbe Sensei [many years ago.] amongst other judoka.My career spanned 13 years then
met I Chiba Sensei [1970].As they say the rest is history----
Cheers, Joe.

sakumeikan
04-22-2011, 05:00 PM
The difference is seoi nage uses the arm not the neck. There's the possibility of injury in the beginning of the throw just as much as the landing of the throw. A yanked shoulder can be a serious injury but it's never lethal, a yanked neck especially if it's disconnected from uke's center can paralyze or be lethal.

Dear tenyu,
I agree.This time I comprehend you.Oh what joy!!At last !!!
Cheers, Joe.

David Orange
04-22-2011, 07:34 PM
.None of these waza applies pressure on the neck area as in Kubi Nage.

I'm referring to any version of seoi nage but maybe seoi otoshi even more. It seems to me the danger of landing on your head and breaking your neck is greater than with the kubinage, especially as those kids were doing it. And while there is danger of straining the neck or worse if uke isn't off balance, I think the greater danger is in being thrown right on your head.

I trained in judo waza for many years before I got shodan in Japan, training under Minoru Mochizuki.

Best to you.

David

sakumeikan
04-22-2011, 08:36 PM
I'm referring to any version of seoi nage but maybe seoi otoshi even more. It seems to me the danger of landing on your head and breaking your neck is greater than with the kubinage, especially as those kids were doing it. And while there is danger of straining the neck or worse if uke isn't off balance, I think the greater danger is in being thrown right on your head.

I trained in judo waza for many years before I got shodan in Japan, training under Minoru Mochizuki.

Best to you.

David

Dear David,
Any throw that lands you on your head is dangerous.As it happens years ago I took severe throw which landed me on top of my head.the pain was excrutiating .Years later a xray technician indicated I may have fractured/broken my neck a long time ago.
At the moment I am suffering from some cervical pain ,hence my concern when I see waza like Kubi Nage being done .
Hope you are well, cheers, Joe,

David Orange
04-22-2011, 11:44 PM
Dear David,
Any throw that lands you on your head is dangerous.

Well, I tried to think of some exceptions, but I couldn't. The head is one of my least favorite body parts to land on.

As it happens years ago I took severe throw which landed me on top of my head.the pain was excrutiating .Years later a xray technician indicated I may have fractured/broken my neck a long time ago.

Sounds likely. What throw was it? I knew a guy who was sandan in aikido and he was practicing judo with a Canadian champion. They were just doing uchi komi, but the nage lost his balance and fell the other guy on his head, seriously injuring his neck and ending his aikido career. For those not in judo, uchi komi is a practice step where you "fit in" for the throw but don't actually throw. This guy had my friend up off the ground, then lost his balance and put my friend on his head.

At the moment I am suffering from some cervical pain ,hence my concern when I see waza like Kubi Nage being done .

The one that always scared me was ura nage. For those not familiar, it's basically slipping behind the other guy, getting a bear hug around his waist from behind, then arching your back to lift the other guy off his feet. You fall back to your shoulders and throw the other guy backward behind you. Always looked like a good way to get your neck broken.

Heck of a technique. You'd probably only have to do that one once and the attacker would never bother you again.

Cheers and hope your neck feels better. Ever try any Feldenkrais? It's especially good for the neck and back.

David

Tenyu
04-23-2011, 03:45 PM
Dear tenyu,
I agree.This time I comprehend you.Oh what joy!!At last !!!
Cheers, Joe.

Joe,

Besides safety, thereís no reason to practice grabbing someoneís neck or head. The psychological implications inherent in kubinage donít resonate with Aikidoís purpose.

JW
04-23-2011, 04:19 PM
Besides safety, there's no reason to practice grabbing someone's neck or head. The psychological implications inherent in kubinage don't resonate with Aikido's purpose.

Well that's an interesting point. But, in aikido part of our process is to relinquish an ego-based point of view, so shouldn't the head just be considered another appendage? In other words any psychological issues with that throw reveal where progress needs to be made? Just a thought. Of course the safety is still my main concern.

Tenyu
04-23-2011, 09:00 PM
Well that's an interesting point. But, in aikido part of our process is to relinquish an ego-based point of view, so shouldn't the head just be considered another appendage? In other words any psychological issues with that throw reveal where progress needs to be made? Just a thought. Of course the safety is still my main concern.

Not only does nage have no need to grab ukeís head or neck, from a purely technical perspective itís the most inefficient and ineffective way to practice non-lethal Aikido. Monty and Matthew mentioned itís popular with ego-pandering WWF because it simulates and satiates a representation of lethal violence. O Sensei didnít randomly exclude kubinage from his training. Thereís no separation between nage and uke. Whatever disrespect nage gives uke, nage gives himself. Progress happens when violence or violent representations are no longer normalized or justified. Our society, our culture, our language is filled with violence, but thatís precisely why weíre in this mess(reference to recent discussions in open topics forum nuclear thread).

sakumeikan
04-24-2011, 02:55 AM
An old timer told me this was the old snap mare takeover. He said he learned it at the boys club back in the 1950's.
Is he right???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3o5Mxly2OY

Watch that vicious ear-pull finisher at the 2:40 mark!
Ouch!!!:blush:

Oh, there's a head plant at the 5:40 mark!!!
Maybe this can be dangerous in the wrong hands!!!
Look at that guys face!
Good thing he got tossed on a spring loaded floor.

At the 6:20 mark there's a mysterious masked man!
Anyone train with a mask at their dojo?
What if your sensei started wearing a pro-wrestling mask?
How cool would that be?
Hi All,
Kendo Nagasaki ???Is this the masked assassin?Joe.

Basia Halliop
04-24-2011, 08:32 PM
Not only does nage have no need to grab uke's head or neck, from a purely technical perspective it's the most inefficient and ineffective way to practice non-lethal Aikido. Monty and Matthew mentioned it's popular with ego-pandering WWF because it simulates and satiates a representation of lethal violence. O Sensei didn't randomly exclude kubinage from his training. There's no separation between nage and uke. Whatever disrespect nage gives uke, nage gives himself. Progress happens when violence or violent representations are no longer normalized or justified. Our society, our culture, our language is filled with violence, but that's precisely why we're in this mess(reference to recent discussions in open topics forum nuclear thread).

I'm not sure I understand. Do you believe that head throws are literally more dangerous and more likely to cause serious injury or death than other Aikido techniques? Or are you saying that they look more violent and feel more violent and should be discouraged for that reason?

JW
04-24-2011, 09:16 PM
I think an aikidoka should be able to think of kubi nage without getting stuck in psychological issues. It's just a throw, and we shouldn't have weird machismo attached to it.

I'm talking from the point of view that the head is the tip of our body structure. One reason the throw is cool and interesting is that you are latching onto the free end of the uke's vertical column. The 2 bodies integrating and twisting together (which is the real nature of all our throws) is so plainly demonstrated in this throw. That's kind of nice.

I think it would be great in class to highlight the kind of safety concern and involvement that this throw demands, and to be sure that we can do this together without getting all macho (from nage's end) or upset (from uke's end).

I mean, we do it every class with all the other throws we practice-- we are doing "nice" versions of things that are supposed to land the attacker on his head to hurt/kill. We let them roll instead, and in kubi nage we take care of them too.

sorokod
04-26-2011, 02:40 PM
Another way to "set it up" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIJDj7rPDoM Not something to be practised in the general class I think.

sorokod
04-26-2011, 04:58 PM
Landing is not a problem, taking off is.

Here is another one in similar spirit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21y32ASY3Sw&t=29s

sorokod
04-27-2011, 09:39 AM
I also think that these throws bring into sharp focus the subject of "resisting a technique". It is obvious that in these cases "resistance" is very, very dangerous and will probably cause severe damage to the uke. The choice that faces the uke is to resist and be hurt or to blend and hope to reverse latter on or escape.
This, it seems to me, provides the rational for cooperation which is rooted in completely self serving motivation and makes good martial sense.

JW
04-27-2011, 11:09 AM
I also think that these throws bring into sharp focus the subject of "resisting a technique". It is obvious that in these cases "resistance" is very, very dangerous and will probably cause severe damage to the uke. The choice that faces the uke is to resist and be hurt or to blend and hope to reverse latter on or escape.

I think that's right on, from uke's point of view.
From nage's perspective, there is also though the idea of forcing a throw you "want" rather than letting it happen because you are actually getting it.
The videos show kata training, where uke is giving this throw to nage. We can learn the motions this way.

But in randori, if you "try" to do things they often don't work out. If there is kuzushi and the head is moving forward, that's one thing. But "I want to do kubi nage" could be a really bad thought for nage.. it should happen honestly, otherwise it could be quite dangerous. I'm thinking about yanking here, not the landing, as has been mentioned.

sorokod
04-27-2011, 11:21 AM
I am thinking that every technique (not just kubi nage) should be done with this kind of quality i.e.: resistance makes no martial sense.