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Tony Wagstaffe
04-20-2011, 07:20 PM
Although I have been away for a month on a ban, I have looked in periodically as an observer...
I see certain groups stick together, they automatically slap each other on the back whatever esoterical/philisophical clap trap they write. If newcomers or even fairly long term members (like myself?) say a word out of line, a bit of hard, but harmless ribbing, or make or post a joke, or a youtube link as part of that joke, and that joke does not humour the "clique" The " clique"` pounce with a childish wolf pack mentality which does not like, in the least, controversial opinion, fur is ruffled somewhat, as it does not fall in line with their comfortable idealism of "aikido"?
I will most likely get banned again unnecessarily, so who should I suck up to and congratulate every time they post? Should I even go as far as telling Graham Christian (aka known in jest as tea cosy or even Tetley) that I have started collecting his videos or is that just too much?
So I ask again is AikiWebb a "Clique" .....???
I'm sure there are many out there who would really like to know.....

mathewjgano
04-20-2011, 08:28 PM
I don't think it's "clique-y." I think the biggest issue I've seen here has more to do with personality clashes and differences in social norms than going against some clique(s). This is a matter of conventions of communication. If I spoke here the way I speak to my friends I would be banned. The "California Howdy" is a standard greeting for my oldest friends; we regularly insult the hell out of each other, but I would never talk that way to other groups of friends because they would be insulted, no matter how long I explained that they were just jokes. It's a similar issue here I think.
I think some of your language here is a little loaded. Note how you describe ribbing as harmless while the responses to it are childish and animal-like. It's all harmless: it's all words here. The question isn't "who's on what team," it's, "what are the accepted norms and how can we respect the other while holding true to our own values." Where the two cannot meet we have to simply agree to disagree.
...My tupence.
Take care,
Matt

Janet Rosen
04-20-2011, 10:15 PM
I regularly have disagreements on training issues or priorities or whatever with other posters but we keep it respectful and over months or years learn each other's quirks, foibles, and areas of fundamental agreements or disagreements.

I regularly see posters, new and old alike, chime in with a specific opinion or a bit of information in response to a poster, then go back to lurking until another post days or weeks later is pertinent to their interests.

Different people come here for different reasons, just as folks have different reasons for being in the dojo.

Just a few random hopefully on-topic thoughts.

graham christian
04-20-2011, 10:16 PM
Tony.
I'm fascinated and 'honoured' once again to be mentioned by you.

I think there are cliques in all walks of life including here so that is normal. The truth is it is not those who get you banned it is you who get yourself banned.

I am one of the many who you remark upon. So what. I don't find what you say funny or hurtful or anything really. However I do see you getting yourself into trouble again. Can you not see why? Really?

If you want to know my true feelings about you they are that you have no doubt in the past put many years into your Aikido and got yourself up to a good level. Go teach, live it, enjoy it. I truly believe that when you do that and are happy and successful at it you will have no need to criticise others.

Is everyone attacking me for being me or is there something about my communication I should change? (maybe that's the real question)

Anyway, being a clique of one that almost makes us partners.

Enjoy, G.

akiy
04-20-2011, 11:02 PM
Hi folks,

Just a quick reminder to please keep your discussions directed toward the topic rather than directed towards the people behind the topic. Let's refrain from making things personal, shall we?

And, to be quick about this but hopefully to the point: my intention is to have AikiWeb be an open forum where discussions take place in a respectful manner. Disagreements are welcome as are passionate responses -- as long as they are communicated with civility. From my own experiences in 20+ years of online discussions, it sure seems like deeper and more meaningful discussions take place within the purview of respectful dialogue than from a "free-for-all." As an aside, perhaps, when I do take moderator action, it is usually due to the tone being employed becoming disrespectful -- not due to the humor, disagreements, and/or the differing opinions presented within the posts. The latter are welcome; the former, not so much.

Back to nursing an ill server (bad sectors within a RAID-6, ugh)...

-- Jun

David Orange
04-20-2011, 11:02 PM
... being a clique of one that almost makes us partners.


There have been studies on that subject.

You team up with Tony and next thing you know, it'll be a gang.

You don't want to belong to a gang.

But if you're a "clique of one," that makes you a loner. You don't want to be a loner, either. You get a bad rep. Everyone thinks you're up to something. "He's a loner," they say, and look at one another meaningfully.

So maybe you try joining up with some organization. But little by little you notice odd things about it: the group marriages, the signing over of worldly possessions, the sad eagerness of the other members when they talk about the great spaceship that's coming to rescue you all....and you realize...you're in a cult.

You don't want to be in cult, either. They have bad reputations, too. Because, basically, a cult is just a gang, founded by a loner. And there's no way you can win with that.

I'm afraid, in the future, we'll all just have to wear burqua-like covers over our faces just so people won't speculate whether we're loners or gang members. They won't know who we are. Just like everyone else.

David

David Orange
04-20-2011, 11:20 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hzgzim5m7oU

Dave de Vos
04-21-2011, 01:08 AM
I think forum members should avoid insulting other forum members.

The hard part is that what one person perceives as honesty and humour, is perceived as an insult by another. And what one person perceives as respectful, is perceived as hypocrisy by another. This perception depends on personal and cultural attributes of a person.

I don't think it is cliques. I think it is just groups of people that happen to have a similar perception in these cases because of similarities in personal and cultural background. I remember George S. Ledyard explaining this in terms of east coast versus west coast. I can see the same thing comparing big city culture and countryside culture.

I like humour (britisch humour is even a favourite of mine), but IMHO it crossed the insult boundary when one makes fun of other members or a generalization of other members. If members keep doing it, the forum will degrade.

aikishihan
04-21-2011, 01:57 AM
Is Aiki Web an Open Forum?

No. It is essentially a gift to the Aiki world from a private party, who has wisely and appropriately set guidelines and conditions for its accessibility and its usage by the public. It is the creation and inspiration of one Jun Akiyama, who deserves immense respect and gratitude for granting us this opportunity to share online, our most profound observations, along with our most frivolous and inane misconceptions of what we all profess to love, Ueshiba Aikido.

Per Wikipedia, an “open forum” is essentially synonymous with a “public forum”, being open to all expressions while protected by the First Amendment. Since most public forums are monitored and scrutinized by our Federal Government in one form or another, this definition certainly does not apply to the phenomenon we know as “Aiki Web”. Rather, it is a labor of love by one inspired and talented individual, and remains predominantly his to do with as he wills, with all due respect to laws and customs not withstanding.

Since it is a forum open to the public, all manner of visitors may be observed there. If some appear “cliquish”, so what. If some betray deep seated opinions on certain topics, bravo for them. If the majority choose to remain silent and aloof from the fray of verbal jousting, this is not necessarily proof of disinterest or disdain, nor even of tacit approval of all that is presented. If certain individuals choose to disrespect or dishonor the intent of this forum, consequences should and do apply. Grow up already!

It is not necessary or reasonable to react or respond to every post. I reserve the option of which conversations to join, and which ones to leave alone. Even the responses I gratefully receive from what I may write, do not define me in any way, regardless of positive or negative content. I appreciate it all, even the responses or rejoinders that I will never receive.

I remain grateful to Aiki Web, its founder, the magnificent array of masterful writers who post, and to the greater supportive public that makes it all worth much more than I could ever invest in it. To date, it is one of the greatest privileges I have ever received to be a part of such an open and welcoming activity. Thank you Jun!

An open forum? Nah, I simply want this forum to stay open for a very long time.

guest1234567
04-21-2011, 03:12 AM
I think it is an open forum where everybody can give his honest opinion and a constructive contribution referring to the topic.
Our performance showes our education.If we were in a live discussion among people not known in person, we would be respectful to each other.It is easier to criticize in writing than to tell the same thing viewing the person face to face, but our behaviour should be the same.
Finally I'd like to thank Jun for his excellent work during the years, please keep the forum in the same form it is great.

Tony Wagstaffe
04-21-2011, 04:01 AM
There have been studies on that subject.

You team up with Tony and next thing you know, it'll be a gang.

You don't want to belong to a gang.

But if you're a "clique of one," that makes you a loner. You don't want to be a loner, either. You get a bad rep. Everyone thinks you're up to something. "He's a loner," they say, and look at one another meaningfully.

So maybe you try joining up with some organization. But little by little you notice odd things about it: the group marriages, the signing over of worldly possessions, the sad eagerness of the other members when they talk about the great spaceship that's coming to rescue you all....and you realize...you're in a cult.

You don't want to be in cult, either. They have bad reputations, too. Because, basically, a cult is just a gang, founded by a loner. And there's no way you can win with that.

I'm afraid, in the future, we'll all just have to wear burqua-like covers over our faces just so people won't speculate whether we're loners or gang members. They won't know who we are. Just like everyone else.

David

David, and to all here......, Those that have sussed me, have sussed me, and in some ways actually like what I have to say. I did in the beginning say that I am rather blunt, matter of fact and will say things that maybe those of sensitive sensitivities may not like, but even as George L who has pointed out.... why don't you click the ignore button?
I'm just being the real me, no gang, no BS, no hidden agenda.... Excuse my ignorance, but I just cannot see where some of you are coming from at times, they ramble on about the in and outs of such and such without getting to the point, or eventually arrive there after much rear wind.
I am now getting to the point that "aikido" as a "martial" art is degenerating more into martial "fart"
I can see to some extent that it is most likely that most do it for health as they get older, and that is to me acceptable, but it's the young ones coming in that should be practising "hard" so that they are able to understand the "soft" This is what is worrying me about the state of aikido, because believe me most other MA or those of other persuasion think we are a laughing stock and who can blame them...?
What amazes me is that they then wonder why their "aikido" does not work to protect them, that is a shame for aikido, but most hide behind the word "aikido" because in reality they cannot produce the goods. Within one year of doing "aikido" I was able and reasonably good at protecting myself, even more so now after all these years. Maybe a tad slower than I used to be, but the feet don't go as fast as they used to, but I will still teach it as an art of self defence, as realistically as possible......
I will also teach it for health, if required, but will make no bones about the fact it will not work if one "thinks" to use the health approach in a possible attack on ones person. That, I make abundantly clear as it would be a terrible lie to do otherwise.
I really get the impression that maybe some of you are still under that illusion and still need a reality check from time to time.
If you are, please get real as I will repeat, and will keep repeating that you are not doing "aikido" you are doing martial dance and that is all there is to it.....

Regards to all

Tony

Hellis
04-21-2011, 04:23 AM
Hi Tony

Welcome back. I am not so sure about a `clique ` but there are a few ` klingons ` that are probably already doing a " Dear Jun ".

I was impressed at what I saw as your effort at rehabilitation by collecting Grahmas videos set, will this affect your teaching styles in a positive or negative way ?

Henry Ellis
Aikido Articles
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/

Tony Wagstaffe
04-21-2011, 04:54 AM
Hi Tony

Welcome back. I am not so sure about a `clique ` but there are a few ` klingons ` that are probably already doing a " Dear Jun ".

I was impressed at what I saw as your effort at rehabilitation by collecting Grahmas videos set, will this affect your teaching styles in a positive or negative way ?

Henry Ellis
Aikido Articles
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/

I think Graham is probably alright as a bloke, as you say, but as for his "aikido" videos? Well, what can I say? It boggles the mind?...... :hypno: If Graham is reading this put the kettle on for a cup of rosy lea' I'm sure you are very capable at doing that.....;)

Nicholas Eschenbruch
04-21-2011, 05:24 AM
When someone is - hypothetically speaking - totally enamoured with their self-image as the lone authentic desperado, cliques turn against them all the time... Would'nt the desperados be bored and disappointed if it were any different :)

And of course there is social structure on any forum. Anything else would really be quite surprising.

lbb
04-21-2011, 08:03 AM
What do you call it when two or three individuals commonly turn threads into their private chit-chat? Is that a clique?

Marc Abrams
04-21-2011, 08:11 AM
Tony:

There are many different groups of Aikidoka and other martial artists from a variety of disciplines who both frequent and participate on the Aikiweb forum. Jun has done a remarkably good job in managing this forum. He has set parameters governing the nature of discussions. He moderates in a manner that he believes is as in impartial and as fair as possible. You obviously believe otherwise, but your position stands in marked contrast to the larger reality of the forum.

If you feel so slighted, then why do you still frequent the forum? Why don't you create your own? Personally speaking, you claim very little ownership for the predicament that you place yourself in. What you call humor is frequently thinly veiled disdain for positions other than your own. If no one has told you, please allow me to be the first one to tell you that humor works best amongst friends (as opposed to people whom you disagree with their positions on things). You are anything but open-minded. When people have graciously provided you with opportunities to experience something potentially different, valid and martial, you either respond by saying that it is nonsense or you already do it.

Using your own tongue-in-cheek descriptor from another thread, the effluent neighborhood that is your life has been and is your own creation. Your complaints about the stink around you has more to do with the world that you created for yourself and how you see it, than is really out there. A small clue to this larger reality can be seen in that you can acknowledge some "common ground" with the likes of Ledyard Sensei and Dan Harden.

Instead of seeking some self-reflection and personal change during your time-out from this forum, you seem to have accumulated a lot of frustration and anger and you are now expressing in your posts directed at everybody accept yourself.

Marc Abrams

Tony Wagstaffe
04-21-2011, 08:18 AM
Tony:

There are many different groups of Aikidoka and other martial artists from a variety of disciplines who both frequent and participate on the Aikiweb forum. Jun has done a remarkably good job in managing this forum. He has set parameters governing the nature of discussions. He moderates in a manner that he believes is as in impartial and as fair as possible. You obviously believe otherwise, but your position stands in marked contrast to the larger reality of the forum.

If you feel so slighted, then why do you still frequent the forum? Why don't you create your own? Personally speaking, you claim very little ownership for the predicament that you place yourself in. What you call humor is frequently thinly veiled disdain for positions other than your own. If no one has told you, please allow me to be the first one to tell you that humor works best amongst friends (as opposed to people whom you disagree with their positions on things). You are anything but open-minded. When people have graciously provided you with opportunities to experience something potentially different, valid and martial, you either respond by saying that it is nonsense or you already do it.

Using your own tongue-in-cheek descriptor from another thread, the effluent neighborhood that is your life has been and is your own creation. Your complaints about the stink around you has more to do with the world that you created for yourself and how you see it, than is really out there. A small clue to this larger reality can be seen in that you can acknowledge some "common ground" with the likes of Ledyard Sensei and Dan Harden.

Instead of seeking some self-reflection and personal change during your time-out from this forum, you seem to have accumulated a lot of frustration and anger and you are now expressing in your posts directed at everybody accept yourself.

Marc Abrams

That is exactly what I expected from you you Marc, but then again should I expect any different? The "clique" in action.....?

Tony Wagstaffe
04-21-2011, 08:20 AM
When someone is - hypothetically speaking - totally enamoured with their self-image as the lone authentic desperado, cliques turn against them all the time... Would'nt the desperados be bored and disappointed if it were any different :)

And of course there is social structure on any forum. Anything else would really be quite surprising.

Are you sure that is social structure as opposed to social snobbery?

Tony Wagstaffe
04-21-2011, 08:22 AM
What do you call it when two or three individuals commonly turn threads into their private chit-chat? Is that a clique?

I thought private messaging was for that? But then again I'm a very open sort of chappy.....

Marc Abrams
04-21-2011, 08:30 AM
That is exactly what I expected from you you Marc, but then again should I expect any different? The "clique" in action.....?

Tony:

What clique? I belong to an independent, Aikido organization that has no official affiliation with Jun, Ledyard Sensei, Dan Harden, etc.. Your position has no basis in reality. It is once again, you, nobody else but you, avoiding personal responsibility for the positions you take and the consequences that result from them.

Back to the topic of the thread that you started..... This forum is open to discussion from many different viewpoints. Frank discourse takes place. Jun insists that it is done within respectful bounds. If you want to call that an open forum, fine, if not, fine. Your failure to abide by Jun's guidelines is simply your failure. Trying to blame it on some non-existent "cliques" speaks for itself.

Marc Abrams

Tony Wagstaffe
04-21-2011, 08:49 AM
I don't think it's "clique-y." I think the biggest issue I've seen here has more to do with personality clashes and differences in social norms than going against some clique(s). This is a matter of conventions of communication. If I spoke here the way I speak to my friends I would be banned. The "California Howdy" is a standard greeting for my oldest friends; we regularly insult the hell out of each other, but I would never talk that way to other groups of friends because they would be insulted, no matter how long I explained that they were just jokes. It's a similar issue here I think.
I think some of your language here is a little loaded. Note how you describe ribbing as harmless while the responses to it are childish and animal-like. It's all harmless: it's all words here. The question isn't "who's on what team," it's, "what are the accepted norms and how can we respect the other while holding true to our own values." Where the two cannot meet we have to simply agree to disagree.
...My tupence.
Take care,
Matt

Do you mean over sensitivity Matt? I suppose it's like somebody that takes their "painting" to the Louvre in Paris, thinking it's really wonderful only to find out that nobody is bothering to look at it and wondering why? He/she overhears a conversation amongst some art critics who are saying that this not art, it is rubbish.... Whisperings in the back ground upset the the painter..... but alas he/she is not deterred.....Anyways a little while later some "common" folk come along and are all looking at it ooohing and aaaghing saying what a lovely interesting painting it is having no idea as to what "art" is suppose to be all about? They move on to the next painting which is by Picasso and they all say "Blimey my kid could do better than that"
The "Art critics" are disgusted at the "common people" and turn their noses up in horror because these "common people" can't see where the "art" is?

I suppose the simplicity is in the way I think and see as it all is far too obvious, it is just like those "common" people as it is too much to bear for these "art critiques" so they turn their noses up at it and remain in their clique as the art critiques, but are unable to paint or do a work of art themselves.....

Close?

Tony Wagstaffe
04-21-2011, 08:57 AM
Tony:

What clique? I belong to an independent, Aikido organization that has no official affiliation with Jun, Ledyard Sensei, Dan Harden, etc.. Your position has no basis in reality. It is once again, you, nobody else but you, avoiding personal responsibility for the positions you take and the consequences that result from them.

Back to the topic of the thread that you started..... This forum is open to discussion from many different viewpoints. Frank discourse takes place. Jun insists that it is done within respectful bounds. If you want to call that an open forum, fine, if not, fine. Your failure to abide by Jun's guidelines is simply your failure. Trying to blame it on some non-existent "cliques" speaks for itself.

Marc Abrams

Happy slap on the back chappies? I can see through you like glass Marc...... I'm not the one disguising their disgust so thinly veiled.....
Have I actually insulted you yet? Methinks not , but you are very, very sensitive, now that is obvious..... I really wonder why?

Pauliina Lievonen
04-21-2011, 09:08 AM
I think forum members should avoid insulting other forum members.

The hard part is that what one person perceives as honesty and humour, is perceived as an insult by another. And what one person perceives as respectful, is perceived as hypocrisy by another. This perception depends on personal and cultural attributes of a person.The best way I've found to deal with people both online and in real life, is to only react to what I perceive as an insult if it's directed to me. And the most effective reaction so far seem to be to just say "I think that's insulting.". Usually if the other person didn't actually mean to be insulting, they tell me so, and all's well again. If they did in fact mean to be insulting, well, now they know that they succeeded and I know that they're a person I don't want to waste my time on.

If the remark wasn't actually directed at me, I wouldn't be surprised to get a response of "what's it to you" or something along those lines. So I leave it to other people to respond to insults that are directed at them.

In my experience trying to teach other people or somehow influence how they behave online is futile. I wish people would just stop doing it, but of course I can't make anyone do that either. :D

Pauliina

lbb
04-21-2011, 09:10 AM
Pauliina: so you're okay with always sitting by and saying nothing while someone else is attacked?

Pauliina Lievonen
04-21-2011, 09:15 AM
Online, among adults, yes. An "attack" online is just words. I expect adults to be able to survive that.

If a kid is bullied online that would be a different situation.

Pauliina

chillzATL
04-21-2011, 09:17 AM
Tony,

I don't see these clique's you're talking about. I see people who discuss things, agree and disagree and do so without ever making things personal, what you call "harmless ribbing". It's funny that you constantly try to excuse your actions as "being real" or "harmless ribbing". Nobody here knows you and they're instantly not going to be interested in knowing you when the first things you have to say to anyone is cracking jokes about them being aiki-bunnies and then taking it much further than that in a lot of cases. You quite obviously see that the way you say things, not what you sway, irritates some people, yet you don't care to adjust. You just shrug it off that people don't get you, they're all softies and they need to man up. You know that attitude doesn't work face-to-face, why would you think it would work here? Because you're behind a computer and not face-to-face? You may say that you're the same way all the time, but I just don't buy it. Your intial introduction to people you meet "out there" can't be to automatically start pointing out their faults as you see them. If it were you would have no friends and nobody would want to know you, and I don't get that impression from you. So again, why do you think that sort of thing is acceptable here?

I've been on the internet since before it was the internet and I've seen many a person lose themselves (myself included) behind the facade of semi-anonymous discussions, where they amp up their personality because they know they're talking to people they'll likely never meet. I think that's part of your problem and you don't seem to care to push things further than you would otherwise. It's a shame because with your background, you probably have some good things to say that people would get something out of.

Also, your notion that people should train harder and take their training more seriously isn't anything new here. If you spent some time getting to know people before trying to take the piss out of them you might surprise yourself.

Dan Rubin
04-21-2011, 09:33 AM
I am rather blunt, matter of fact and will say things that maybe those of sensitive sensitivities may not like, but even as George L who has pointed out.... why don't you click the ignore button?
I'm just being the real me, no gang, no BS, no hidden agenda.... Excuse my ignorance, but I just cannot see where some of you are coming from at times, they ramble on about the in and outs of such and such without getting to the point, or eventually arrive there after much rear wind.

Well, Tony, "why don't you click the ignore button?"

I will repeat, and will keep repeating that you are not doing "aikido" you are doing martial dance and that is all there is to it.....

Perhaps you would have more influence if you stopped repeating that.

Tony Wagstaffe
04-21-2011, 09:39 AM
Online, among adults, yes. An "attack" online is just words. I expect adults to be able to survive that.

If a kid is bullied online that would be a different situation.

Pauliina

Words can be very powerful Paulina..... Just as the written word?

Tony Wagstaffe
04-21-2011, 09:40 AM
Well, Tony, "why don't you click the ignore button?"

Perhaps you would have more influence if you stopped repeating that.

Why? Do you dance?

Pauliina Lievonen
04-21-2011, 09:48 AM
Words can be very powerful Paulina..... Just as the written word?
I don't know what you mean exactly?

Pauliina

Marc Abrams
04-21-2011, 09:54 AM
Happy slap on the back chappies? I can see through you like glass Marc...... I'm not the one disguising their disgust so thinly veiled.....
Have I actually insulted you yet? Methinks not , but you are very, very sensitive, now that is obvious..... I really wonder why?

Tony:

I am so glad that you can see through me like glass! Maybe you can enlighten me as to why I am so very, very sensitive? There actually is no disgust with you from my side. I frankly think that we would enjoy training together and tossing back some suds afterwards. That is why I invited you to the Ushiro Sensei seminar. That is why I strongly suggested you go to the Harden seminar (you would get along with him as well).

To me, it is simply tiresome to hear the same litany of complaints, hidden behind the veil of a common-man who speaks a simple truth. To me, I would appreciate a dose of integrity and candor on your part by meeting at least one of the two people I mentioned, and then hear back from you as to whether or not your position on things was perhaps inaccurate. To me, your blame game is simply an immaturity of character. From my perspective, you have simply not gained the wisdom that can accompany age.

Marc Abrams

Tony Wagstaffe
04-21-2011, 10:02 AM
Tony:

I am so glad that you can see through me like glass! Maybe you can enlighten me as to why I am so very, very sensitive? There actually is no disgust with you from my side. I frankly think that we would enjoy training together and tossing back some suds afterwards. That is why I invited you to the Ushiro Sensei seminar. That is why I strongly suggested you go to the Harden seminar (you would get along with him as well).

To me, it is simply tiresome to hear the same litany of complaints, hidden behind the veil of a common-man who speaks a simple truth. To me, I would appreciate a dose of integrity and candor on your part by meeting at least one of the two people I mentioned, and then hear back from you as to whether or not your position on things was perhaps inaccurate. To me, your blame game is simply an immaturity of character. From my perspective, you have simply not gained the wisdom that can accompany age.

Marc Abrams

Then why take rancour at my posts? If it didn't affect you as much as you say it doesn't, why do you bite at the slightest suggestion that it does?

akiy
04-21-2011, 10:04 AM
Once again:

Just a quick reminder to please keep your discussions directed toward the topic rather than directed towards the people behind the topic. Let's refrain from making things personal, shall we?

-- Jun

Tony Wagstaffe
04-21-2011, 10:04 AM
I don't know what you mean exactly?

Pauliina

You were on about online bullying?

Pauliina Lievonen
04-21-2011, 10:26 AM
You were on about online bullying?
Yes, when children are involved I think it's important for adults to step in a protect them even just from words. But the most effective way to do that I think would probably be to confront and deal with the bullies in real life.

I don't think the disagreements on Aikiweb go so far that I would call them online bullying though. And everyone involved as far as I know is quite grown up, so I don't feel like they need that much protecting.

I do try to choose my own words carefully though.

Pauliina

Tony Wagstaffe
04-21-2011, 10:30 AM
Once again:

Just a quick reminder to please keep your discussions directed toward the topic rather than directed towards the people behind the topic. Let's refrain from making things personal, shall we?

-- Jun

Hey Jun, much as your post is to get people to lighten up, it's not me who is getting upset here, I just ask why?
It interests me greatly that people can get so worked up about honest, frank points of view or answers.... Sorry I'm so sharp but I am being honest..... Really...
I ask people to show me what they can do and it does not impress me much, or they hide what it is as they are not wanting to show? DH? What's that all about? I'm just looking for the "martial" in their "aikido" or methods, thought and how they arrive at their conclusions, so far a lot of it just doesn't move me, maybe this is where it's all really at?
You tell me?
The impression I get is "aikido" is moving towards a new age philosophical health system with very little to do with "Martial Arts"
I know what your stance is on this so I understand that you may not comment, that is fair enough, it's your site and power to you, but if we can't say things without people going all "snotty" and getting over sensitive, where do we go? If you ban me for life? No big deal, but think how dull it will become because people are too timid to say what they really think..... I just happen to be one of 'em...

Take care......

Tony

C. David Henderson
04-21-2011, 10:36 AM
Tony,

If one really doesn't care how people react to bluntness, ribbing, and ribald humor, one can't really complain about the reaction.

If one cares, your tag line suggests that, like all truth, admission is something the person owes to themselves.

I wish you well.

Tony Wagstaffe
04-21-2011, 10:42 AM
Yes, when children are involved I think it's important for adults to step in a protect them even just from words. But the most effective way to do that I think would probably be to confront and deal with the bullies in real life.

I don't think the disagreements on Aikiweb go so far that I would call them online bullying though. And everyone involved as far as I know is quite grown up, so I don't feel like they need that much protecting.

I do try to choose my own words carefully though.

Pauliina

Nice, I agree with you, I just like to be frank and to the point, I know my "dodgy" humour may not help but I find I can laugh at most things in life even "aikido" Maybe if people laughed more, there would be less bullying? I know where you are coming from as I was bullied a lot in my school youth and was very, very sensitive. I have knocked that out of myself as it is a kind of debilitating fear that no one should have to put up with, but alas it exists everyday, not just in the schools but in the workplace as well, even on here... but it happens to be in a different guise, it's called snobbery and being way to over sensitive.
It can be be overcome, :D but it has to come from each and every one of us....
Nice of you to answer.....

Pauliina Lievonen
04-21-2011, 10:49 AM
The beauty of online discussions I think is that there are technical solutions that don't exist in real life. In real life you can't always avoid a bully because they can follow you and get in your face. But here if I thought someone was bullying me I would just put them on my ignore list. After that they could go on and say whatever they want but what I don't read doesn't really hurt me does it? :D Then there would be only my own morbid curiosity to deal with. :D

Pauliina

Tony Wagstaffe
04-21-2011, 10:50 AM
Tony,

If one really doesn't care how people react to bluntness, ribbing, and ribald humor, one can't really complain about the reaction.

If one cares, your tag line suggests that, like all truth, admission is something the person owes to themselves.

I wish you well.

Yes, its the reaction I am interested in how they are doing that....

You take care too.....

Tony Wagstaffe
04-21-2011, 10:52 AM
The beauty of online discussions I think is that there are technical solutions that don't exist in real life. In real life you can't always avoid a bully because they can follow you and get in your face. But here if I thought someone was bullying me I would just put them on my ignore list. After that they could go on and say whatever they want but what I don't read doesn't really hurt me does it? :D Then there would be only my own morbid curiosity to deal with. :D

Pauliina

Aye aye...:D

akiy
04-21-2011, 10:57 AM
Hey Jun, much as your post is to get people to lighten up, it's not me who is getting upset here, I just ask why?

My asking for people to refrain from making things personal is not directed towards whether people are being "upset" nor "honest." Rather, it is about whether people are discussing the topic or the people behind the topic. When posts are filled with "you are" and "you think," I'd reckon that those posts are targeting the person rather than the topic at hand. Doing so, in my mind and experience, often creates unnecessary friction through assumptions, attacks upon the person, and aggression sometimes -- all of which get in the way of civil discussion.

Once again, I am fine with controversial topics and people who have differing opinions. What I am talking about is not that, but rather to make sure that the direction of these discussions remain on-topic rather than becoming personal.

I know what your stance is on this so I understand that you may not comment, that is fair enough, it's your site and power to you, but if we can't say things without people going all "snotty" and getting over sensitive, where do we go? If you ban me for life? No big deal, but think how dull it will become because people are too timid to say what they really think..... I just happen to be one of 'em...

I think you are responding to my posts asking for respectful dialogue with a discussion of what to talk about. Those are two entirely different topics, in my mind. To clarify, again, I am not talking about what people here discuss but how they discuss it. I am all for people saying "what they really think," as long as it's done in a respectful manner -- and that includes (if I may borrow more of your words) those who are being "honest" and being "oversensitive" both.

Hope that helps,

-- Jun

Hellis
04-21-2011, 11:01 AM
The best way I've found to deal with people both online and in real life, is to only react to what I perceive as an insult if it's directed to me. And the most effective reaction so far seem to be to just say "I think that's insulting.". Usually if the other person didn't actually mean to be insulting, they tell me so, and all's well again. If they did in fact mean to be insulting, well, now they know that they succeeded and I know that they're a person I don't want to waste my time on.

If the remark wasn't actually directed at me, I wouldn't be surprised to get a response of "what's it to you" or something along those lines. So I leave it to other people to respond to insults that are directed at them.

In my experience trying to teach other people or somehow influence how they behave online is futile. I wish people would just stop doing it, but of course I can't make anyone do that either. :D

Pauliina

Paulina

You make a good response which I believe Tony may have initially misunderstood ??
Children aside - I agree - I don't see how people can allow themselves to be bullied
on the internet, I know it takes place and I know people respond to it, I have even read of people committing suicide over it. I still don't understand it - some threads I occasionally follow, other may just get one visit........I do accept that many on here are overly sensitive
and I sometimes wince at their hurt.

Henry Ellis
Aikido Articles
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/

Tony Wagstaffe
04-21-2011, 11:21 AM
My asking for people to refrain from making things personal is not directed towards whether people are being "upset" nor "honest." Rather, it is about whether people are discussing the topic or the people behind the topic. When posts are filled with "you are" and "you think," I'd reckon that those posts are targeting the person rather than the topic at hand. Doing so, in my mind and experience, often creates unnecessary friction through assumptions, attacks upon the person, and aggression sometimes -- all of which get in the way of civil discussion.

Once again, I am fine with controversial topics and people who have differing opinions. What I am talking about is not that, but rather to make sure that the direction of these discussions remain on-topic rather than becoming personal.

I think you are responding to my posts asking for respectful dialogue with a discussion of what to talk about. Those are two entirely different topics, in my mind. To clarify, again, I am not talking about what people here discuss but how they discuss it. I am all for people saying "what they really think," as long as it's done in a respectful manner -- and that includes (if I may borrow more of your words) those who are being "honest" and being "oversensitive" both.

Hope that helps,

-- Jun

It does, I haven't resorted to insults yet as that would turn the air blue, :D but we won't go there.... a bit of needle maybe, but insults naaah!

Cliff Judge
04-21-2011, 12:02 PM
I am now getting to the point that "aikido" as a "martial" art is degenerating more into martial "fart"

He who smelt it, dealt it.

Keith Larman
04-21-2011, 12:47 PM
Well, groups almost always form. The problem with evaluating this, however, is that sometimes the dynamic is a sort of negative thing, others it is simply what happens when people who are experienced and who have similar views are in the same place. You can call it a clique if you don't agree, but if that group is disagreeing with you out of their honest and valid experience, well, maybe it is time to pay a little attention to what they're saying? Sometimes there is the one or two guys valiantly fighting against an oppressive status quo. Yup, that happens all too often on on-line forums. Most everyone disagreeing with you should cause you to reflect. Either you're right and everyone else is wrong *or* maybe you should pay attention to what they're actually saying. Because maybe, just maybe, you're reading their opinions through a filter of your biases of those things you hate.

Honestly I don't disagree with *some* of your comments about the quality of Aikido as displayed by many in the world of Aikido. However, I also find blanket, automatic condemnation of anything other than a certain view close-minded and provincial.

Me, I train in an offshoot from Tohei sensei that focused on maintaining his exercises, his theories, but also keeping it firmly grounded and effective. No ki-balls flying here. We split off 30 years ago. I also try to keep an open mind and I hit whatever seminars I can. I've had the opportunity to train with shodothugs. And with Harden and Sigman. Hope to get on the mat with Popkin and Ushiro one of these days. I've also been lucky enough to have been invited on occasion to train with people from old stuff that usually don't invite outsiders (occupational benefits). None of this indicates that I find my style insufficient. None of it indicates that I think any one style is any better than any other because answering that question requires a much larger discussion on why people are training. The reality is that my life has been spent as a full-time student -- I just love learning new stuff. So what's my point? To everyone, open your minds. If someone wants to be hyper critical, well, fine. I reserved judgement of Dan until I met him because a lot of what he wrote seemed familiar to me and not "revolutionary" per se. Just more of what I had always been looking for in all my studies. I very much enjoy time I've spent with Toby Threadgill because it's like looking into a window of 150 years ago. More like where we came from which really helps understand what we do today. And to notice the vestiges of the past in our stuff that we maybe don't fully understand.

Anyway... Being critical is fine, especially if you've got the stuff to back it up. Being dismissive of things you simply have never seen is foolish. Which makes the criticism hollow at best.

Yeah, cliques form. Whether that is good or bad really depends. When the clique is composed of multiple people with 30+ years experience who get together with folk outside their arts to actually pressure test their stuff honestly and fairly, well, sometimes, maybe one should not be quite so dismissive of that group.

'nuff from me. I will admit to tremendous forum fatigue.

End of Keith's long ramble of the month...

Tony Wagstaffe
04-21-2011, 12:48 PM
He who smelt it, dealt it.

Beginning with Whom? I'm not the only one......

Keith Larman
04-21-2011, 12:53 PM
I'll also comment that there are always folk on the very extremes. Yeah, I look sideways at things I see as silly and weird. Mostly I just don't comment because I honestly couldn't possibly care any less. I think the point here is to realize that, for better or worse, Aikido did morph into a very large and diverse thing. Not all Aikido is the same, it hasn't been for a very long time. There are many pursuing what I personally think of as Aikido as seen through the lens of "new age" spiritualism. That's just not for me. That said I wish the best to those who pursue that end. So I shrug and move on.

Some on the other extreme see Aikido as basically a very hard jujutsu and (in my view) seem to miss out on a lot of the subtle stuff that gave O-sensei and even the founders of these styles a lot of their power. Some seem to focus on the omote of what they saw but miss the ura (again, IMO). That's also not for me. But again, more power to those who do see it as a good thing. So I shrug

I guess I shrug a lot... :)

lbb
04-21-2011, 01:07 PM
Online, among adults, yes. An "attack" online is just words. I expect adults to be able to survive that.


By talking about "surviving", you're taking the argument to the extreme. You don't really believe that an appropriate reaction to witnessing any non-lethal attack is to stand around with your hands in your pockets, do you? Even if we're confining matters to verbal attacks, I think there are some points you're missing. If (for example) someone uses a racial epithet in speaking to someone else, do you really feel that it's inappropriate for anyone else to say, "Hey, that ain't right"? Because that's the kind of thing we're talking about here.

Tony Wagstaffe
04-21-2011, 01:12 PM
Tony.
I'm fascinated and 'honoured' once again to be mentioned by you.

I think there are cliques in all walks of life including here so that is normal. The truth is it is not those who get you banned it is you who get yourself banned.

I am one of the many who you remark upon. So what. I don't find what you say funny or hurtful or anything really. However I do see you getting yourself into trouble again. Can you not see why? Really?

If you want to know my true feelings about you they are that you have no doubt in the past put many years into your Aikido and got yourself up to a good level. Go teach, live it, enjoy it. I truly believe that when you do that and are happy and successful at it you will have no need to criticise others.

Is everyone attacking me for being me or is there something about my communication I should change? (maybe that's the real question)

Anyway, being a clique of one that almost makes us partners.

Enjoy, G.

Actually Graham I'm still in disbelief at your videos...... I have looked at every one of them..... I just find it hard to believe that you can equate what you do as a martial art? I have to be honest and say it looks more like afternoon tea at Graham's....
I'm sorry Graham I'm not into disliking people so much, there are plenty of those around, but you sound like a nice guy, I'm sure you are, but what what you bring up or express as aikido as a "martial art" is somehow a little misleading?
I will be honest and say what you are doing is more akin to some kind of health pastime with some connection to "aikido"? Can I presume that is what you are actually doing? Maybe a Japanese version of Tai Chi for health as a comparison...?
Please enlighten me......

Tony Wagstaffe
04-21-2011, 01:33 PM
I'll also comment that there are always folk on the very extremes. Yeah, I look sideways at things I see as silly and weird. Mostly I just don't comment because I honestly couldn't possibly care any less. I think the point here is to realize that, for better or worse, Aikido did morph into a very large and diverse thing. Not all Aikido is the same, it hasn't been for a very long time. There are many pursuing what I personally think of as Aikido as seen through the lens of "new age" spiritualism. That's just not for me. That said I wish the best to those who pursue that end. So I shrug and move on.

Some on the other extreme see Aikido as basically a very hard jujutsu and (in my view) seem to miss out on a lot of the subtle stuff that gave O-sensei and even the founders of these styles a lot of their power. Some seem to focus on the omote of what they saw but miss the ura (again, IMO). That's also not for me. But again, more power to those who do see it as a good thing. So I shrug

I guess I shrug a lot... :)

Well Keith maybe I will just have to become a shrugger like you? :D
I'm just being very inquisitive, why call "it" aikido that is, a martial art, if really what one is doing is in actual fact not anymore?
I have already decided that I don't really do aikido anymore, I just called it that because I didn't know what else to call it, because it started as that, as that was what I was doing, everybody told me so, so I believed them, but is not now, so morphed it has become.....
So maybe it's ju jutsu I do and will have to call it that, how about Towa Jujutsu?..... Anyone got a translation on what Towa would/could mean, To & Wa being the first 2 letters my second name and surname (obvious!!).... nothing rude I hope....:D

dps
04-21-2011, 01:37 PM
Aikiweb is an open forum but as with any large group of people there are cliques and there are cliques here on Aikiweb.

dps

Gorgeous George
04-21-2011, 01:37 PM
'It is said that aikido is the way of harmony.
I think it is simple to explain this saying.
If you face someone, and you can make
that person's animosity disappear,
by your own true character,
This is the harmony of Becoming One.
This is not a compromise.
Harmony is a matter of having strength
yourself,
and then making the other your ally.
He becomes your partner.
This is "making harmony in opposition."
But, unless you accumulate virtue,
it is impossible.
To sum up, the foundation is
your own inner strength.'

- Gozo Shioda

'Oh dear......aren't we a little slow?'

- Tony Wagstaffe

dps
04-21-2011, 01:41 PM
Well Keith maybe I will just have to become a shrugger like you? :D
I'm just being very inquisitive, why call "it" aikido that is, a martial art, if really what one is doing is in actual fact not anymore?
I have already decided that I don't really do aikido anymore, I just called it that because I didn't know what else to call it, because it started as that, as that was what I was doing, everybody told me so, so I believed them, but is not now, so morphed it has become.....
So maybe it's ju jutsu I do and will have to call it that, how about Towa Jujutsu?..... Anyone got a translation on what Towa would/could mean, To & Wa being the first 2 letters my second name and surname (obvious!!).... nothing rude I hope....:D

Tell people that you do old style Tomiki Martial Aikido or just Martial Aikido.

dps

Tony Wagstaffe
04-21-2011, 02:06 PM
'It is said that aikido is the way of harmony.
I think it is simple to explain this saying.
If you face someone, and you can make
that person's animosity disappear,
by your own true character,
This is the harmony of Becoming One.
This is not a compromise.
Harmony is a matter of having strength
yourself,
and then making the other your ally.
He becomes your partner.
This is "making harmony in opposition."
But, unless you accumulate virtue,
it is impossible.
To sum up, the foundation is
your own inner strength.'

- Gozo Shioda

'Oh dear......aren't we a little slow?'

- Tony Wagstaffe

Not quite so slow as you Dear Mr Jenkins.....:D

Tony Wagstaffe
04-21-2011, 02:11 PM
Tell people that you do old style Tomiki Martial Aikido or just Martial Aikido.

dps

To be honest Dave I don't even call it aikido anymore, just simply "martial arts"..... "Aikido" is too loaded a word......
But thanks for the suggestion.....

Gorgeous George
04-21-2011, 03:02 PM
Not quite so slow as you Dear Mr Jenkins.....:D

Dude: 1. You mistook me (not for the first time) for somebody else solely on the basis of a shared first name - which hardly indicates you're the antithesis of slow, or loathe to be argumentative and insulting, in order to compensate for an inferiority complex, hence prone to not looking before you leap.).

2. I wasn't calling you slow. I quoted where you had needlessly, and pathetically called me slow, because what you said made no sense (as it was directed towards Graham Christian); and I contrasted your approach to conflict with that of an aikido great - one who was renowned for a particularly martial approach, and yet had a very peaceful, insightful view of conflict and aikido.

graham christian
04-21-2011, 03:33 PM
Actually Graham I'm still in disbelief at your videos...... I have looked at every one of them..... I just find it hard to believe that you can equate what you do as a martial art? I have to be honest and say it looks more like afternoon tea at Graham's....
I'm sorry Graham I'm not into disliking people so much, there are plenty of those around, but you sound like a nice guy, I'm sure you are, but what what you bring up or express as aikido as a "martial art" is somehow a little misleading?
I will be honest and say what you are doing is more akin to some kind of health pastime with some connection to "aikido"? Can I presume that is what you are actually doing? Maybe a Japanese version of Tai Chi for health as a comparison...?
Please enlighten me......

Tony. Thanks for the clarification. If you have never seen it done like that before then your view makes perfect sense.

I also agree that from that view presenting it as a martial art can look a little misleading.

Firstly may I say that we are ALL guilty of ridiculing things we see and don't understand and thus are left with our own conclusions.

A japanese version of Tai Chi for health? I like it, that's quite close. In fact when people ask me what it is I do, and usually get the name wrong and say kung fu or taikwondo, I say it's Aikido but more like Tai Chi in the way I teach it.

This I find leads them away from wanting to do it if they want to learn how to fight or indeed self defence and shows them I teach for self developement. Once again I must add the word spiritual health as well as mind and body.

It may seem contradictory to you or even to many but through my own experience and that of my students and indeed my friend who teaches very similar to me we have found that it works dramatically in confrontational situations in real life. My personal and second hand examples are numerous and all the acknowledgement I need.

Thus I tell all that the prime purpose of what I do is self developement and self defence comes as a result.

I did find one thing very interesting though when I read so much about what people considered 'reality' when it comes to Aikido as most of it seemed to me to be conjecture. I started a thread asking for stories and experiences where people in Aikido had taught and helped people from a different martial art. Hardly any replies.

Now there's a reality. If Aikido as a whole is so far up it's own .....
and thinks it's so good then why aren't more Aikidoka teaching and helping people from other martial arts? I see plenty of people saying how they must go to other things in order to improve their Aikido yet not much the other way round. Is the whole of the Aikido community one big clique?

Anyway hope that answers your question and remember, as one old master famously said to another ' I f you want to get ahead get a hat!'

Have fun.G.

Pauliina Lievonen
04-21-2011, 05:42 PM
Even if we're confining matters to verbal attacks, I think there are some points you're missing. If (for example) someone uses a racial epithet in speaking to someone else, do you really feel that it's inappropriate for anyone else to say, "Hey, that ain't right"? Because that's the kind of thing we're talking about here.I think even in that situation the best thing is for the person who it's directed at to say "hey, that ain't right." Simply because that's the most powerful way to deal with it. Anyone else is going to be treated like an outsider by the "attacker". I see it happening all the time on different forums. Other people getting involved inevitably means the argument growing and discussions getting derailed. And in the end pretty much no one changes their behaviour.

By the way I'm not saying one can't say something supportive to the target of the verbal attack. I know in my own case if someone would attack me on a discussion forum, I'd appreciate it much more if people would tell me that they understood my point of view, instead of getting into an argument with the other person (who by that time I probably would think is an idiot anyway :)).

Pauliina

mathewjgano
04-21-2011, 06:22 PM
Do you mean over sensitivity Matt? I suppose it's like somebody that takes their "painting" to the Louvre in Paris, thinking it's really wonderful only to find out that nobody is bothering to look at it and wondering why? He/she overhears a conversation amongst some art critics who are saying that this not art, it is rubbish.... Whisperings in the back ground upset the the painter..... but alas he/she is not deterred.....Anyways a little while later some "common" folk come along and are all looking at it ooohing and aaaghing saying what a lovely interesting painting it is having no idea as to what "art" is suppose to be all about? They move on to the next painting which is by Picasso and they all say "Blimey my kid could do better than that"
The "Art critics" are disgusted at the "common people" and turn their noses up in horror because these "common people" can't see where the "art" is?

I suppose the simplicity is in the way I think and see as it all is far too obvious, it is just like those "common" people as it is too much to bear for these "art critiques" so they turn their noses up at it and remain in their clique as the art critiques, but are unable to paint or do a work of art themselves.....

Close?

Hi Tony,
Some of it might be over-sensitivity, but I hesitate to say so because I really don't know anyone here. It's too relative, to my mind. If you can say they're being over sensitive, they can just as easily say you're lacking sensitivity. So I prefer to think of it as simply being a matter of different expectations brought on by what feels normal to us...which is conditioned from how we're raised and how we've lived so far.
The question to my mind is: to what degree are people willing to adjust their mannerisms to suit the situation? And why? If people are feeling insulted by my choice in language I almost always adjust my bahavior, but while being clear (I hope) of where I stand. My beliefs are mine regardless of how I express them, so I often look to be able to express them in different ways when i think it will make them more easily received.
I've been trying to write this post for an hour now, but my 2-year old is a demanding little cuss. I'll try to come back to it a bit later because I'm not feeling at all organized with what I'm trying to say, but here's a start.
Take it easy!
Matt

SeiserL
04-21-2011, 06:31 PM
So I ask again is AikiWebb a "Clique" .....???

If by open you mean you can do or say anything you want without regards for other, then no it is not an open forum.

If you by clique you mean discussing and debating in a respectful way, they yes we are a clique.

Many of us have been in the clique for years and are grateful to the open opportunity provided us.

David Orange
04-21-2011, 08:31 PM
I'm just being the real me, no gang, no BS, no hidden agenda.... Excuse my ignorance, but I just cannot see where some of you are coming from at times, they ramble on about the in and outs of such and such without getting to the point, or eventually arrive there after much rear wind.

"The things that pass for knowledge, I don't understand."

Of course, that doesn't mean it's not knowledge. It only means that the speaker doesn't understand.

As for people rambling on about the ins and outs of such and such, without getting to the point....maybe you're just not paying enough attention to appreciate the subtle points they're making. In any case, you have recourse to the Ignore button as well as everyone else does. So rather than being so judgmental ("eventually arrive there after much rear wind..."), why don't you just skip those posts or ignore the poster?

I am now getting to the point that "aikido" as a "martial" art is degenerating more into martial "fart"

You're going to have to be specific, Tony. Whose aikido is becoming a "martial fart"? I hear this complaint a lot and I do understand that "some people's aikido" was never anything but flatulence. But it's wrong to label aikido itself that way because aikido itself has never changed. There's only the question of whether one has ever entered that "do" or is only imitating an appearance they saw somewhere. But if you're saying that aikido as it is generally taught has become something like that, then you need to provide examples, rather than just state your opinion. Otherwise, it's not really a statement at all, but just a blanket insult. And that never wins much acceptance. So where is this aikido that you perceive to be degenerating? How do you know it's degenerating?

I can see to some extent that it is most likely that most do it for health as they get older, and that is to me acceptable, but it's the young ones coming in that should be practising "hard" so that they are able to understand the "soft" This is what is worrying me about the state of aikido, because believe me most other MA or those of other persuasion think we are a laughing stock and who can blame them...?

As he great scientific genius Richard Feynman said, "What do you care what others think?" The last "fighting" type guy I dealt with, I stood in front of him in a natural stance and said, "Attack any way you want." I had no trouble dealing with his attack.

Have you ever heard that saying "Fools hear of the tao and laugh out loud"?

It's from Tao Te Ching, by Lao Tzu, section 41. I recommend it for you, especially. The quote ends, "If there were no laughter, the tao would not be what it is."

What amazes me is that they then wonder why their "aikido" does not work to protect them, that is a shame for aikido, but most hide behind the word "aikido" because in reality they cannot produce the goods.

Yes. The famous "they".

Who are you talking about, Tony? Who is it that wonders why their "aikido" does not work to protect them?

I don't know of anyone in aikido who has had that complaint except people who gave up early because they thought they were already masters and knew how to "fix" an art they had never deeply studied.

But you seem to know some specific people with that complaint. So please share with us who they are and under what circumstances their aikido failed them. Or have you, maybe, spoken from a source other than "reality"?

Within one year of doing "aikido" I was able and reasonably good at protecting myself, even more so now after all these years. Maybe a tad slower than I used to be, but the feet don't go as fast as they used to, but I will still teach it as an art of self defence, as realistically as possible......

What you say there is really no different from what I've heard far and wide, though you vary in how you define the terms. You deride others for not being "martial" even though you've never met them and usually haven't even seen them work.

I will also teach it for health, if required, but will make no bones about the fact it will not work if one "thinks" to use the health approach in a possible attack on ones person. That, I make abundantly clear as it would be a terrible lie to do otherwise.

I don't differentiate between "health" and "self-defense" as the nature of aikido encompasses both. The fact that you even perceive a difference indicates that you don't understand either side terribly well. There's nothing better for health than real aikido. And there's nothing better for self-defense, in my opinion.

I really get the impression that maybe some of you are still under that illusion and still need a reality check from time to time.

That may be, but you implicitly tell us that you, yourself, are under no illusions, while everyone reading your posts (maybe only 99%) definitely perceive someone who is deep in the throes of delusion.

If you are, please get real as I will repeat, and will keep repeating that you are not doing "aikido" you are doing martial dance and that is all there is to it.....

Tony...we have seen your video. If we watch that by the standards you have presented, we can't judge it very well. It certainly appears to be cooperative and very dance-like. Plus, all your ukes are kids. We don't see you operating with any full adults or any black belts. Last time I demonstrated, a few weeks ago, I had two men as ukes, each with twenty years of martial arts training--one being an avid student of Jeet Kune Do, the other with a long background in Chinese martial arts. Maybe I'm inclined to think you're doing a martial dance? Maybe you are in no position to judge anyone else's aikido?

Because of all this you get resistance from every side (except Henry, who's never met you, and Graham Christian, who resists no one). But you answer everyone with insults (except Henry).

Really, of everyone on this board, you seem to get out and get around least of all. Pretty much everyone who posts here gets around to seminars and meets other people and experiences other styles and teachers. From your posts, I get the impression that you haven't done anything like that in over 25 years. Have you?

The point is, you're making unsupported, general dismissals of thousands of people you've never met and have never seen. And yet you wonder why people seem to be closed to you and why you keep getting suspended from the forums.

Well, that's why.

In tao.

David

lbb
04-21-2011, 09:02 PM
I think even in that situation the best thing is for the person who it's directed at to say "hey, that ain't right." Simply because that's the most powerful way to deal with it. Anyone else is going to be treated like an outsider by the "attacker". I see it happening all the time on different forums. Other people getting involved inevitably means the argument growing and discussions getting derailed. And in the end pretty much no one changes their behaviour.

We'll have to agree to disagree. I believe that public disapproval of antisocial behavior is the most effective way to stop it. In bullying situations, if the bully's victim is the only one who ever says something, everyone believes that the victim is standing alone -- because, well, it's the truth. It's when others publicly express their disapproval of the antisocial behavior and their support for its victim, in a way that the bully, the victim, and everyone else sees it, that things change. The famous words of Martin Neimoller come to mind here.

Tony Wagstaffe
04-21-2011, 09:53 PM
"The things that pass for knowledge, I don't understand."

Of course, that doesn't mean it's not knowledge. It only means that the speaker doesn't understand.

As for people rambling on about the ins and outs of such and such, without getting to the point....maybe you're just not paying enough attention to appreciate the subtle points they're making. In any case, you have recourse to the Ignore button as well as everyone else does. So rather than being so judgmental ("eventually arrive there after much rear wind..."), why don't you just skip those posts or ignore the poster?

You're going to have to be specific, Tony. Whose aikido is becoming a "martial fart"? I hear this complaint a lot and I do understand that "some people's aikido" was never anything but flatulence. But it's wrong to label aikido itself that way because aikido itself has never changed. There's only the question of whether one has ever entered that "do" or is only imitating an appearance they saw somewhere. But if you're saying that aikido as it is generally taught has become something like that, then you need to provide examples, rather than just state your opinion. Otherwise, it's not really a statement at all, but just a blanket insult. And that never wins much acceptance. So where is this aikido that you perceive to be degenerating? How do you know it's degenerating?

As he great scientific genius Richard Feynman said, "What do you care what others think?" The last "fighting" type guy I dealt with, I stood in front of him in a natural stance and said, "Attack any way you want." I had no trouble dealing with his attack.

Have you ever heard that saying "Fools hear of the tao and laugh out loud"?

It's from Tao Te Ching, by Lao Tzu, section 41. I recommend it for you, especially. The quote ends, "If there were no laughter, the tao would not be what it is."

Yes. The famous "they".

Who are you talking about, Tony? Who is it that wonders why their "aikido" does not work to protect them?

I don't know of anyone in aikido who has had that complaint except people who gave up early because they thought they were already masters and knew how to "fix" an art they had never deeply studied.

But you seem to know some specific people with that complaint. So please share with us who they are and under what circumstances their aikido failed them. Or have you, maybe, spoken from a source other than "reality"?

What you say there is really no different from what I've heard far and wide, though you vary in how you define the terms. You deride others for not being "martial" even though you've never met them and usually haven't even seen them work.

I don't differentiate between "health" and "self-defense" as the nature of aikido encompasses both. The fact that you even perceive a difference indicates that you don't understand either side terribly well. There's nothing better for health than real aikido. And there's nothing better for self-defense, in my opinion.

That may be, but you implicitly tell us that you, yourself, are under no illusions, while everyone reading your posts (maybe only 99%) definitely perceive someone who is deep in the throes of delusion.

Tony...we have seen your video. If we watch that by the standards you have presented, we can't judge it very well. It certainly appears to be cooperative and very dance-like. Plus, all your ukes are kids. We don't see you operating with any full adults or any black belts. Last time I demonstrated, a few weeks ago, I had two men as ukes, each with twenty years of martial arts training--one being an avid student of Jeet Kune Do, the other with a long background in Chinese martial arts. Maybe I'm inclined to think you're doing a martial dance? Maybe you are in no position to judge anyone else's aikido?

Because of all this you get resistance from every side (except Henry, who's never met you, and Graham Christian, who resists no one). But you answer everyone with insults (except Henry).

Really, of everyone on this board, you seem to get out and get around least of all. Pretty much everyone who posts here gets around to seminars and meets other people and experiences other styles and teachers. From your posts, I get the impression that you haven't done anything like that in over 25 years. Have you?

The point is, you're making unsupported, general dismissals of thousands of people you've never met and have never seen. And yet you wonder why people seem to be closed to you and why you keep getting suspended from the forums.

Well, that's why.

In tao.

David

Well David lets see one of yours and then maybe we can judge you? , Those "kids" you refer to are in their twenties the lower grade was also a karate student and had also done a style of kung fu, the other one is a black belt unless you are colour blind? The two young ladies happen to be Japanese and have also studied karate...
I have also had gymnasts in my club who have also developed very strong bodies and can do things that I am not able, they were not able to resist my waza.... I find older people 30's and onwards are not so keen to join my dojo (before we closed down). In fact we were considered somewhat rough by most other clubs around the area and the fitness levels were too hard for most. Tomiki aikido is also a sport style as you may well know and uses resistance. Unfortunately the video was done as a promotion video for the students union of the Uni I was teaching at, so I had no control over its editing as it was done by the film and media studies group that came along to do it. For some strange reason they edited out the randori kyogi which was considered a bit too rough for a promotion video for the Union, one of the reasons I was not happy about staying there for much longer after being there from 1990 - 2007 amongst other things....
That take was done completely of the cuff with no prior warning so everything you see is done spontaneously. I put up so maybe you can to?
You say insults, I call them observances, believe me if I wanted to insult you I would have done that by now in a much bluer tone....

The last seminar I went too was in 1993, after that I felt things had changed for the worse, although there were some young fit and quite good players on that course they still had trouble handling me, I was in my forties then....

So lets see what you can do......?

Tony Wagstaffe
04-21-2011, 10:09 PM
Dude: 1. You mistook me (not for the first time) for somebody else solely on the basis of a shared first name - which hardly indicates you're the antithesis of slow, or loathe to be argumentative and insulting, in order to compensate for an inferiority complex, hence prone to not looking before you leap.).

2. I wasn't calling you slow. I quoted where you had needlessly, and pathetically called me slow, because what you said made no sense (as it was directed towards Graham Christian); and I contrasted your approach to conflict with that of an aikido great - one who was renowned for a particularly martial approach, and yet had a very peaceful, insightful view of conflict and aikido.

I don't now.... Sorry Graham Christian (at least he doesn't get wound up like you....?) Also I dont quote other peoples sayings, only my own.....
Dude....

Josh Reyer
04-22-2011, 04:04 AM
Also I dont quote other peoples sayings, only my own.....
Maybe you should try it. You don't seem to be communicating too terribly well with your own.

Tony Wagstaffe
04-22-2011, 05:33 AM
If by open you mean you can do or say anything you want without regards for other, then no it is not an open forum.

If you by clique you mean discussing and debating in a respectful way, they yes we are a clique.

Many of us have been in the clique for years and are grateful to the open opportunity provided us.

Thanks Lynn, polite as always.....

SeiserL
04-22-2011, 05:46 AM
Thanks Lynn, polite as always.....
Its a useful skill that I have cultivated late in life.

Yet, I still maintain and occasionally practice my old skill set too.

Pauliina Lievonen
04-22-2011, 06:21 AM
We'll have to agree to disagree. .No problem! :)

I think we might be thinking of slightly different scenarios here. I don't think anything I've seen on Aikiweb would quite amount to what I'd call bullying. If something had I might actually agree with you.

Pauliina

Tony Wagstaffe
04-22-2011, 06:55 AM
Its a useful skill that I have cultivated late in life.

Yet, I still maintain and occasionally practice my old skill set too.

Ditto, but in my case too out spoken.... for some....

SeiserL
04-22-2011, 10:26 AM
Ditto, but in my case too out spoken.... for some....
IMHO, that's the art: calibrating to who I am with.

Some people in training can handle targeting and follow through. Others can't handle it yet. So I try not to hit them.

Some people can handle out spoken while others take its seriously and personally. So I try to be honest but not to offend.

My wife doesn't think sarcasm is funny. The guys I train with do.

As we say in program: serenity/wisdom is knowing the difference.

Josh Reyer
04-22-2011, 07:01 PM
Cop out....Non-sequitur. This thread is not about videos, it's about whether Aikiweb allows an open exchange of ideas, or if it is a clique that only permits a de facto party line. One possibility that has been raised is that the problem is not with what you say, but how you say it, e.g., blunt expression and "harmless ribbing". I ribbed you about your communication skills, and your response was "show me a video", as if skill in aikido (which I don't do) has anything to do with the subject at hand. Classical ad hominem. Don't try to change the subject; man up and address the question of whether your style of communication is at cross-purposes with what you trying to communicate.

lbb
04-22-2011, 08:33 PM
Non-sequitur. This thread is not about videos, it's about whether Aikiweb allows an open exchange of ideas, or if it is a clique that only permits a de facto party line.

And that, right there, is a false dichotomy. How about if it's neither?

Tony Wagstaffe
04-28-2011, 02:47 PM
Blimey over a week? I'm still here..... Crikey! I must be turning into a fluffy bunny........:D

Hellis
04-28-2011, 02:58 PM
Blimey over a week? I'm still here..... Crikey! I must be turning into a fluffy bunny........:D

Tony

Take it easy, I am sure there have been a few `` Dear Jun `` letters already :) The clique will get you sooner rather than later ...:D

Henry Ellis
Aikido Controversy
http://aikido-controversy.blogspot.com/

Tony Wagstaffe
04-28-2011, 03:18 PM
Tony

Take it easy, I am sure there have been a few `` Dear Jun `` letters already :) The clique will get you sooner rather than later ...:D

Henry Ellis
Aikido Controversy
http://aikido-controversy.blogspot.com/

I'm a bit worried Sensei, there's all this fluffy stuff appearing at the bottom of my left trouser leg?

Michael Hackett
04-28-2011, 06:54 PM
Ellis Sensei,

I doubt that Jun will be terribly moved by "Dear Jun" complaint letters. If he thinks someone is misbehaving, he will address it without urging. YMMV.

Brian R. Scott
04-28-2011, 07:48 PM
Tony,

have you ever checked out http://www.bullshido.net/forums/ . ?

Demetrio Cereijo
04-29-2011, 07:32 AM
Tony,

have you ever checked out http://www.bullshido.net/forums/ . ?
He's going to get loved tenderly there.:D

Tony Wagstaffe
04-29-2011, 09:48 AM
Tony,

have you ever checked out http://www.bullshido.net/forums/ . ?

Yeah when I need a good laugh, cry, or I'm at a loose end, or laid up, but that is rare... haven't for some time, time factor.....:D One of the reasons my post are short as I can keep 'em
Yeah some good wind ups there, but not all the time, I look at MP sometimes, it much depends on what catches my eye, sometimes there is good stuff on BullS, but I'm not very good at filtering through all the effing and blinding, which I get enough of everyday from cabbies, arse hole joe public and so forth..... such is life.....

whoops no insult to Joe, he's a very nice man....

Tony Wagstaffe
04-29-2011, 09:52 AM
He's going to get loved tenderly there.:D

Like the joke about why choirboys have a parting down the middle of their hair Eh?......:D

Hellis
04-29-2011, 03:04 PM
Ellis Sensei,

I doubt that Jun will be terribly moved by "Dear Jun" complaint letters. If he thinks someone is misbehaving, he will address it without urging. YMMV.

Michael

Just my humour :)
I know full well that Jun is fair and on the ball at all times.

Take care

Henry Ellis
Aikido Controversy
http://aikido-controversy.blogspot.com/

John Ianus
10-23-2012, 04:25 AM
We'll have to agree to disagree. I believe that public disapproval of antisocial behavior is the most effective way to stop it. In bullying situations, if the bully's victim is the only one who ever says something, everyone believes that the victim is standing alone -- because, well, it's the truth. It's when others publicly express their disapproval of the antisocial behavior and their support for its victim, in a way that the bully, the victim, and everyone else sees it, that things change. The famous words of Martin Neimoller come to mind here.

what happens when the alleged disapproval of antisocial behavior rapidly escalates into bullying by a predictable clique? that seems to be the problem discussed. whether you always seem to think you're right doesn't change the fact really.

Pink Floyd's "Animals" comes to mind.

Stefan Hultberg
11-15-2012, 05:36 AM
Tony:

There are many different groups of Aikidoka and other martial artists from a variety of disciplines who both frequent and participate on the Aikiweb forum. Jun has done a remarkably good job in managing this forum. He has set parameters governing the nature of discussions. He moderates in a manner that he believes is as in impartial and as fair as possible. You obviously believe otherwise, but your position stands in marked contrast to the larger reality of the forum.

If you feel so slighted, then why do you still frequent the forum? Why don't you create your own? Personally speaking, you claim very little ownership for the predicament that you place yourself in. What you call humor is frequently thinly veiled disdain for positions other than your own. If no one has told you, please allow me to be the first one to tell you that humor works best amongst friends (as opposed to people whom you disagree with their positions on things). You are anything but open-minded. When people have graciously provided you with opportunities to experience something potentially different, valid and martial, you either respond by saying that it is nonsense or you already do it.

Using your own tongue-in-cheek descriptor from another thread, the effluent neighborhood that is your life has been and is your own creation. Your complaints about the stink around you has more to do with the world that you created for yourself and how you see it, than is really out there. A small clue to this larger reality can be seen in that you can acknowledge some "common ground" with the likes of Ledyard Sensei and Dan Harden.

Instead of seeking some self-reflection and personal change during your time-out from this forum, you seem to have accumulated a lot of frustration and anger and you are now expressing in your posts directed at everybody accept yourself.

Marc Abrams

Dear Marc

You seem to have an aggressive and condescending style in this forum. Why all this aggression??

Stefan Hultberg
11-15-2012, 05:46 AM
"The things that pass for knowledge, I don't understand."

Of course, that doesn't mean it's not knowledge. It only means that the speaker doesn't understand.

As for people rambling on about the ins and outs of such and such, without getting to the point....maybe you're just not paying enough attention to appreciate the subtle points they're making. In any case, you have recourse to the Ignore button as well as everyone else does. So rather than being so judgmental ("eventually arrive there after much rear wind..."), why don't you just skip those posts or ignore the poster?

You're going to have to be specific, Tony. Whose aikido is becoming a "martial fart"? I hear this complaint a lot and I do understand that "some people's aikido" was never anything but flatulence. But it's wrong to label aikido itself that way because aikido itself has never changed. There's only the question of whether one has ever entered that "do" or is only imitating an appearance they saw somewhere. But if you're saying that aikido as it is generally taught has become something like that, then you need to provide examples, rather than just state your opinion. Otherwise, it's not really a statement at all, but just a blanket insult. And that never wins much acceptance. So where is this aikido that you perceive to be degenerating? How do you know it's degenerating?

As he great scientific genius Richard Feynman said, "What do you care what others think?" The last "fighting" type guy I dealt with, I stood in front of him in a natural stance and said, "Attack any way you want." I had no trouble dealing with his attack.

Have you ever heard that saying "Fools hear of the tao and laugh out loud"?

It's from Tao Te Ching, by Lao Tzu, section 41. I recommend it for you, especially. The quote ends, "If there were no laughter, the tao would not be what it is."

Yes. The famous "they".

Who are you talking about, Tony? Who is it that wonders why their "aikido" does not work to protect them?

I don't know of anyone in aikido who has had that complaint except people who gave up early because they thought they were already masters and knew how to "fix" an art they had never deeply studied.

But you seem to know some specific people with that complaint. So please share with us who they are and under what circumstances their aikido failed them. Or have you, maybe, spoken from a source other than "reality"?

What you say there is really no different from what I've heard far and wide, though you vary in how you define the terms. You deride others for not being "martial" even though you've never met them and usually haven't even seen them work.

I don't differentiate between "health" and "self-defense" as the nature of aikido encompasses both. The fact that you even perceive a difference indicates that you don't understand either side terribly well. There's nothing better for health than real aikido. And there's nothing better for self-defense, in my opinion.

That may be, but you implicitly tell us that you, yourself, are under no illusions, while everyone reading your posts (maybe only 99%) definitely perceive someone who is deep in the throes of delusion.

Tony...we have seen your video. If we watch that by the standards you have presented, we can't judge it very well. It certainly appears to be cooperative and very dance-like. Plus, all your ukes are kids. We don't see you operating with any full adults or any black belts. Last time I demonstrated, a few weeks ago, I had two men as ukes, each with twenty years of martial arts training--one being an avid student of Jeet Kune Do, the other with a long background in Chinese martial arts. Maybe I'm inclined to think you're doing a martial dance? Maybe you are in no position to judge anyone else's aikido?

Because of all this you get resistance from every side (except Henry, who's never met you, and Graham Christian, who resists no one). But you answer everyone with insults (except Henry).

Really, of everyone on this board, you seem to get out and get around least of all. Pretty much everyone who posts here gets around to seminars and meets other people and experiences other styles and teachers. From your posts, I get the impression that you haven't done anything like that in over 25 years. Have you?

The point is, you're making unsupported, general dismissals of thousands of people you've never met and have never seen. And yet you wonder why people seem to be closed to you and why you keep getting suspended from the forums.

Well, that's why.

In tao.

David

I find it quite weird that you criticize Tony for not being specific while your own post contains a huge assemblage of general insults and patronizing comments. Hypocrisy??

Janet Rosen
11-15-2012, 11:25 AM
I find it quite weird that you criticize Tony for not being specific while your own post contains a huge assemblage of general insults and patronizing comments. Hypocrisy??

Why do you find it useful to this forum to resurrect a long dead thread solely to criticize participants?

akiy
11-15-2012, 11:35 AM
Stefan, let's try to keep feedback in the future to not be so personal, please.

Thread closed.

-- Jun