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oisin bourke
04-11-2011, 08:04 AM
I've been enjoying watching footage of Osawa Hayato of the Aikikai such as this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAMb_aMwm5U

I find his movement intriguing. Does anyone know if he or his father had training in other movement systems outside of aikido?

senshincenter
04-11-2011, 09:46 AM
I'm the exact opposite on this (do not enjoy). He's really making the rounds in the Aikido world too. I am not a fan of all the baby steps he always has to take. Additionally, for me, a lot of his Aikido architectures take advantage of Aikido uke culture and/or the relative low body mass of most of his demo partners.

Gorgeous George
04-11-2011, 10:05 AM
The kokyu-nage and uchi kaiten-nage at 1:49 are beautiful.
He seems to be very powerful and relaxed. Excellent.

JO
04-11-2011, 11:56 AM
Been to two seminars with him. One of the smoothest and most precise instructors I've met.

Russ Q
04-11-2011, 12:54 PM
Me too Oisin! Really loving his movement. Is his dad Kisaburo Osawa?. Thanks for the vid post!

Cheers,

Russ

crbateman
04-11-2011, 01:15 PM
Is his dad Kisaburo Osawa?

Yes.

AsimHanif
04-11-2011, 02:11 PM
The vid above is about 20 yrs old. Osawa Sensei does not move like that anymore.
I actually prefer that older movement than what he is currently pursuing. I like the older minimalist/direct approach than the newer kabuki style (from what I've been told) movement.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKPX_dhjPHM&feature=related

Of course to each his own and I applaud Osawa Sensei for pursuing/challenging his own aikido. In my opinion he is one of the most gifted instructors around.

oisin bourke
04-11-2011, 05:41 PM
I'm the exact opposite on this (do not enjoy). He's really making the rounds in the Aikido world too. I am not a fan of all the baby steps he always has to take. Additionally, for me, a lot of his Aikido architectures take advantage of Aikido uke culture and/or the relative low body mass of most of his demo partners.

His legs and hips seem very flexible to me, and he uses them in a way reminiscent of some jujutsu/iaido/kenbu systems that I've seen. I'm interested in how he developed that movement.

oisin bourke
04-11-2011, 05:43 PM
The vid above is about 20 yrs old. Osawa Sensei does not move like that anymore.
I actually prefer that older movement than what he is currently pursuing. I like the older minimalist/direct approach than the newer kabuki style (from what I've been told) movement.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKPX_dhjPHM&feature=related

Of course to each his own and I applaud Osawa Sensei for pursuing/challenging his own aikido. In my opinion he is one of the most gifted instructors around.

That sort of stepping is known as "suri ashi". Do you know if he studied kabuki?

raul rodrigo
04-11-2011, 09:53 PM
During his recent seminar in Manila, I asked him about how he developed his particular kind of footwork. His reply was a smile and, "I don't know."

oisin bourke
04-11-2011, 10:19 PM
During his recent seminar in Manila, I asked him about how he developed his particular kind of footwork. His reply was a smile and, "I don't know."

Thanks for the reply Raul. I'm pretty sure he does know, myself.

senshincenter
04-11-2011, 10:46 PM
The vid above is about 20 yrs old. Osawa Sensei does not move like that anymore.
I actually prefer that older movement than what he is currently pursuing. I like the older minimalist/direct approach than the newer kabuki style (from what I've been told) movement.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKPX_dhjPHM&feature=related

Of course to each his own and I applaud Osawa Sensei for pursuing/challenging his own aikido. In my opinion he is one of the most gifted instructors around.

Yeah, not a fan still.

raul rodrigo
04-11-2011, 10:56 PM
Thanks for the reply Raul. I'm pretty sure he does know, myself.

Oisin, the look on his face was along the lines of, "I do know, but it's best for you to find out for yourself."

raul rodrigo
04-11-2011, 11:01 PM
I can understand Dave V's unease with regard to his footwork and posture, because it's so unconventional. At one point he receives shomen-uchi basically standing on one foot. The back foot is drawn up beside the lead foot, with the toes lightly touching the mat.

But I don't think the ukes tank for him, or take a dive just because he's 7th dan. His body mechanics for waza and the idiosyncratic footwork do work, as far as I can tell, after having taken some ukemi from him and watched some of my more skilled friends do the same with him. But I am sure I will not be able to copy what he does, so I am currently using other models for my own movement.

senshincenter
04-11-2011, 11:04 PM
I can understand Dave V's unease with regard to his footwork and posture, because it's so unconventional. At one point he receives shomen-uchi basically standing on one foot. The back foot is drawn up beside the lead foot, with the toes lightly touching the mat.

But I don't think the ukes tank for him, or take a dive just because he's 7th dan. His body mechanics for waza and the idiosyncratic footwork do work, as far as I can tell, after having taken some ukemi from him and watched some of my more skilled friends do the same with him. But I am sure I will not be able to copy what he does, so I am currently using other models for my own movement.

To be clear, I think his throws are legitimate. It's his setups that I have issue with - they only exist in the greenhouse that is contemporary uke culture.

Aside from that - regarding all the baby steps: What was it Osensei said when he talked about the relationship between a stable mind and a stable stance?

oisin bourke
04-11-2011, 11:17 PM
Oisin, the look on his face was along the lines of, "I do know, but it's best for you to find out for yourself."

What I meant was that I'm pretty sure Osawa Sensei did not develop his style of movement all on his own. I believe he learned portions of his movement from sources outside Aikido. Someone like Endo Sensei looks, to me, to have developed his Aikido through a lot of solo practice. Osawa, on the other hand, shows a strong influence of formal Japanese dance systems. The older video posted by me presents a similar influence from older jujutsu systems, Shibukawa ryu among others IMO. If he was actually taught some of this stuff, it's a little disingenuous to tell others to figure it out on their own. But, hey, maybe I'm wrong!

oisin bourke
04-11-2011, 11:19 PM
To be clear, I think his throws are legitimate. It's his setups that I have issue with - they only exist in the greenhouse that is contemporary uke culture.

Aside from that - regarding all the baby steps: What was it Osensei said when he talked about the relationship between a stable mind and a stable stance?

I've never trained with Osawa so I can't comment on what exactly he's doing, but a theory behind suri ashi is that one keeps ones' stability in movement.

senshincenter
04-11-2011, 11:28 PM
It's not the purposeful movement, it's the bouncing off of uke's mass and the regaining of balance lost.

raul rodrigo
04-11-2011, 11:35 PM
What I meant was that I'm pretty sure Osawa Sensei did not develop his style of movement all on his own. I believe he learned portions of his movement from sources outside Aikido. Someone like Endo Sensei looks, to me, to have developed his Aikido through a lot of solo practice. Osawa, on the other hand, shows a strong influence of formal Japanese dance systems. The older video posted by me presents a similar influence from older jujutsu systems, Shibukawa ryu among others IMO. If he was actually taught some of this stuff, it's a little disingenuous to tell others to figure it out on their own. But, hey, maybe I'm wrong!

I wouldn't know about the Japanese dance thing, Oisin, so that wasn't on my mind that night. But he was genuinely amused by my question.

raul rodrigo
04-11-2011, 11:38 PM
One of my closest friends in aikido said the same thing about Osawa's footwork a few years ago after watching him on Youtube: What's up with all the small steps and adjustments? He called Osawa's feet "unstable." After attending the seminar, that same friend has changed his mind.

Charles Hill
04-12-2011, 06:11 AM
That sort of stepping is known as "suri ashi". Do you know if he studied kabuki?

I have heard from two different shihan that were close to Kisaburo Osawa, that he described his footwork in Kabuki terms. I suppose that is where Hayato Osawa gets it.

raul rodrigo
04-12-2011, 06:50 AM
I have heard from two different shihan that were close to Kisaburo Osawa, that he described his footwork in Kabuki terms. I suppose that is where Hayato Osawa gets it.

Do you mean Katsuyuki Shimamoto?

AsimHanif
04-12-2011, 07:46 AM
Hi Oisin,
I wouldn't describe what Osawa Sensei is doing now in regards to footwork as 'suri ashi'. Suri ashi is more of a sliding type step or steps. His footwork now appears rather 'light' and 'many'.
I don't know if Osawa Sensei studied kabuki or Noh dance but it was pointed out to me that his footwork has a strong resemblance to Japanese dance. In looking at traditional Japanese dance and comparing that to what I see Osawa Sensei doing, I would agree...of course others may not.
In regards to the earlier Osawa H. style, his dad Osawa K. did study judo prior to aikido so its logical to assume this had some influence on his aikido.

senshincenter
04-12-2011, 09:49 AM
I've been enjoying watching footage of Osawa Hayato of the Aikikai such as this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAMb_aMwm5U


Some examples of what I'm talking about - which happen all the time to him

The Irimi Nage at :40. You can see him bounce off of uke as the equal and opposite energy returns to him from the throw. Sure, uke got thrown. Sure uke felt the force of the throw. But uke would have received a lot more energy had that equal and opposite energy gone back into him and not out through the unstable stance.

The Kaiten Nage at :46. Here you can see an example of how he goes off balance and needs those adjustment steps to keep his line of gravity from falling outside of his base of support.

I don't count myself as the ultimate test of martial prowess. So I would never say, "Wow, since he can throw me, he really kicks butt. He's for real!" Hence, when thrown by him at a seminar, and when felt to have been thrown hard, I still know that had he not bounced off of people, and if he didn't t always throw his line of gravity outside of his base of support, he'd be throwing harder and/or able to throw heavier people, etc. He'd be technically better - which he should be for the rank, title, and admiration he's receiving.

AsimHanif
04-12-2011, 02:18 PM
Hi David,
in this clip below of O' Sensei circa 1935, is he not making similar adjustments?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98yRuBkUBGQ&feature=related

Asim

AsimHanif
04-12-2011, 02:44 PM
On second thought...no need to respond David.
Thx.

senshincenter
04-12-2011, 03:49 PM
To keep clarity in the discussion, could you be kind enough to give me the second time on the clock so I can see what you are saying exactly - please/thanks.

d

Charles Hill
04-12-2011, 10:52 PM
Do you mean Katsuyuki Shimamoto?

Do you mean did I hear the idea from that individual? No, I first heard it from Akira Tohei.

raul rodrigo
04-13-2011, 02:27 AM
I see, thanks. Didn't know Akira Tohei was close to the older Osawa.

oisin bourke
04-14-2011, 08:58 PM
For anyone interested, here's a clip of noh theater containing similar stepping:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o--VbWf6M0c&feature=relmfu

BC
04-18-2011, 04:28 PM
I attended numerous seminars with Osawa Sensei and find him one of the most gifted aikidoka I have encountered. I have always found his footwork very "catlike," and similar to some forms of karate and kung fu that I trained in years ago before I started in practicing aikido. In fact, one of his stances is identical to the cat stance that I learned in kenpo. It is intended to be used as a transitionary stance as weight is transferred from one foot to another or prior to stepping.