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matty_mojo911
04-07-2011, 01:09 AM
Genuinely interested in feedback on the following:

There is no doubt that O'Sensei was a great martial artist, skilled in several arts to the highest level and through the later part of his life he created Aikido.

If we are to assume that O'Senseis method of doing Aikido is the correct way, and I think it fair to say the founder has a good claim on that. Then as a starting point we should have a general look at how he got there.

He of course claims he had "enlightenment" but I agree with other writers on this subject that it was likely that this was far more to do with his spiritual fervour than his practicing of the martial arts.

Therefore if we believe that through his Aikido O'Sensei could throw people with a finger tip, or similar, then we can never know if that was due to his spiritual experience and spiritual enlightenment or simply his practicing of the martial arts.

Although I've been thrown by persons able to "find" my centre extremely well, and minimise the force they use I have yet to be influenced by Ki, or similar, flowing from someone and affecting me, in particular without them touching me.

When I have "felt" Ki it has always been through static exercises like the unbend able arm or similar, these are often referred to as Ki tricks, and taking this point further I'm sure that if I placed a speck of dust on a nearly frictionless table and placed my hand closeby, my "extending Ki" would not move that speck of dust even a micro millimetre, and I would suggest that nobody can or else they would be famous.

Ki always seems to involve yourself, or persons and because of this we can perhaps say that it has something to do with the inter-relationship between people. Perhaps when we change or direct our "ki" we are actually changing something between two persons. The fact that Ki is a human to human thing is important when we look at "no touch' throwing.

We should also remember that even after his enlightenment O'Senseis early forms of Aikido were very physical, it was really only later in his life that the "no touch" throwing came about.

I am of the opinion then that this simple fact shows that enlightenment was not the reason for his "no touch" throwing, or else it would have happened immediately.

Also from what I have viewed and been informed of those who do "no touch" throwing tend to do so in the later part of their Aikido lives, and they generally have a dedicated group of followers some looking for the "mystical."

To look for something spiritual is quite common whilst practicing a martial art.

Speaking for myself, when practicing Karate I remember thinking that there must be more to this than punching a bag? Hence I started Aikido as I was looking for something spiritual, or at least something with a greater philosophical base.

But perhaps the "danger" to a martial arts style/club is that it gets caught up in its own bubble of belief. This is indicative of what I have heard described as self indulgence. For example the easiest resolution to a certain attack might be a simple throw, but through a process of years of training we create "layers" to this - what if they did this? What about this as response to that response of yours? Before you know it the layers of techniques have become self perpetuating and no longer do you train in a simple resolution to the attack but are training in the development of an art form.

This is perfectly understandable as it is what eventually creates every art - the pursuit of excellence, and thorough understanding of what we do.

However, when you combine a group of "spiritual/philosophical" people who have all trained in this now self indulgent martial art, they are at risk of not realising it is such.

I would suggest that once a club reaches this state is when you start to get "no touch" throwing, and similar such things.

I have yet to see, no touch throwing, or similar, done on people outside of a clubs own students, or even outside of a style.

So is no touch throwing real? Or is it just a bunch of respectful muppets standing in a circle, not wishing to embarrass Sensei.

Your thoughts? Experiences?

graham christian
04-07-2011, 01:54 AM
Hi Matt.
A well written post however a subject which has had much debate already.

I experienced it when I first went to Aikido back in 1981 and wondered what the hell was that? All I knew was I was thrown and it felt good. I hadn't even had time to learn what I was 'meant' to do.

Personally I don't see how anyone could not believe it. If you follow the principles of any art and get really comfortable with those principles and the use of them then to that degree you are needing to use less and less effort. It's obvious no?

It applies to all sports and activities.

Regards.G.

guest1234567
04-07-2011, 01:56 AM
Hi Matt,
Maybe this blogpost will interest you http://www.aikiweb.com/blogs/moon-in-the-water-19051/no-touch-aikido-defence-3959/

Hellis
04-07-2011, 02:26 AM
Genuinely interested in feedback on the following:

I have yet to see, no touch throwing, or similar, done on people outside of a clubs own students, or even outside of a style.

So is no touch throwing real? Or is it just a bunch of respectful muppets standing in a circle, not wishing to embarrass Sensei.

Your thoughts? Experiences?

Matt

In my 55yrs of Aikido I too have never seen these comic capers done on anyone other than a student and teacher ` working together `..I have never been subject to this - having studied with Kenshiro Abbe - Masahilo Nakazono - M Noro - T Abe - H Tada - K Chiba - N Tamura - H Ichamura.....

If this could be done on people other than ones own students then I could see TV and Stage appearances beckoning ...

I am sorry to say that I can't do ``it`` :o

Henry Ellis
British Aikido History
http://www.british-aikido.com

Michael Varin
04-07-2011, 02:33 AM
That post was a bit rambling, but I think I get the gist.

Although, the vast majority of no touch throws one sees in aikido are totally contrived and collusive, there is nothing mystical or impossibly difficult about no touch throws.

Aiki only exists between animate objects, because it involves a complex interaction of intention, expectation, and movement.

I have genuinely been thrown and thrown others with no touch. I have also colluded in both roles to perform no touch throws. It's a very different experience.

I'm curious. How do you know you felt ki in those static exercises, like the "unbendable arm"? Why would you describe it as such? What made it stand out to you? How was it different? How do you think the "unbendable arm" relates to no touch throws?

I think this is an interesting topic, which should receive more serious discussion. Maybe you can expand on your first post.

GB-UK
04-07-2011, 05:50 AM
Double post!

GB-UK
04-07-2011, 05:53 AM
Personally speaking I would love to try these no touch throws, so if you can do them can you try to do one on me? Since it's no touch, how far apart do we need to be for it to work? Cm's, metres, in the same room? Maybe you could try from where you are now and see if you can throw me?
I could try and knock you down with my chi balls aswell if you want :p

Hellis
04-07-2011, 06:17 AM
Personally speaking I would love to try these no touch throws, so if you can do them can you try to do one on me? Since it's no touch, how far apart do we need to be for it to work? Cm's, metres, in the same room? Maybe you could try from where you are now and see if you can throw me?
I could try and knock you down with my chi balls aswell if you want :p

Gornall

I note that you are based in the North and Graham is in London, I would suggest this could be achived by post - I hasten to recommend by ``registered post ``...for the best results.

Henry Ellis
Aikido Blogs
http://aikido-blogs.blogspot.com/

Demetrio Cereijo
04-07-2011, 06:34 AM
So is no touch throwing real? Or is it just a bunch of respectful muppets standing in a circle, not wishing to embarrass Sensei.

Your thoughts?

Sometimes is "real", in the sense there is not conscious collusion between people involved, sometimes is theatrics.

Experiences?
I've done it, in heavy contact mma sparring against a Krav Maga guy. It's not rocket science. Happens every day in soccer, rugby, basketball...

Charles Hill
04-07-2011, 07:21 AM
When my sister was in university many years ago, she saved a dog from the pound, Bonnie, who was big and a bit aggressive. Bonnie had a bad habit of chasing cats and my sister was worried what might happen if Bonnie ever caught one. One day, Bonnie saw a rather large cat sitting on a porch and took off after it. This cat not only didn't run, it stood up ready to fight. Bonnie saw this and hit the brakes, ending up tumbling into a bush. She then walked back to my sister with her tail between her legs. If this cat could do it, I imagine O'Sensei could too.

I recommend checking out the Systema teacher, Mikhail Ryabko's DVD, Beyond the Physical. Mr. Ryabko explains the "psychic" work eloquently and gives a bunch of drills to do.

Alex Kostic shows/explains some of it in the clip a couple of minutes in. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_jboskipAI

lbb
04-07-2011, 07:29 AM
Speaking for myself, when practicing Karate I remember thinking that there must be more to this than punching a bag? Hence I started Aikido as I was looking for something spiritual, or at least something with a greater philosophical base.

If that was what you were after, why didn't you study philosophy or take up a spiritual practice? It seems like a much more direct and reliable way to find that "something" than to study a martial art in the vague hope that something "spiritual" or "philosophical" will rub off on you.

john.burn
04-07-2011, 08:18 AM
I was on a seminar in the US a good few years ago and Imaizumi sensei was the guest teacher, he demonstrated some no touch throws from shomenuchi but his point was something along the lines of this... My intent (ki, call it whatever you like) is in my hand, in my fist. I'm going to punch you in the face, either move and get out of the way, or, say hello to my fist.

I liked his explanation and it made sense - certainly didn't look like his uke was intentionally falling for some other wishy washy reason other than not wanting to get punched. So to me, the point was uke reacted to a fist all of a sudden appearing in front of his face, if uke hadn't have reacted it would have looked like iriminage but instead of the arm going around the neck, his fist would have punched the guy. Kind of simple really. Was good ;).

Marc can probably explain this one a lot better, he might have been there.

chillzATL
04-07-2011, 09:00 AM
John Burn's post explains no touch throws as far as I would ever be willing to go. I've done throws like that and seen them done and they weren't faked, though I would honeslty never depend on something like that in a confrontation. It's a good teaching tool and example of how your ki can affect another person without actually touching them.

IMO there are two ki's these days, much like there are several aikido's. You have the the whole "feel good" ki, ie, "he has very positive ki". And then there is what I would consider to be usable ki, aka, intent. If you put your hands up and mentally prepare yourself to receive a push to your hands, you are extending ki, extending your intent. There's really nothing mystical about that at all and you find that same type of thing being used in any number of sports or activities. If you condition your body and mind properly then you have a structure that can relaxedly support itself and via extending ki in all directions at all times, is always in balance and able to absorb (trying to avoid getting too long winded here) forces, regardless of their direction.

Marc Abrams
04-07-2011, 10:24 AM
I was on a seminar in the US a good few years ago and Imaizumi sensei was the guest teacher, he demonstrated some no touch throws from shomenuchi but his point was something along the lines of this... My intent (ki, call it whatever you like) is in my hand, in my fist. I'm going to punch you in the face, either move and get out of the way, or, say hello to my fist.

I liked his explanation and it made sense - certainly didn't look like his uke was intentionally falling for some other wishy washy reason other than not wanting to get punched. So to me, the point was uke reacted to a fist all of a sudden appearing in front of his face, if uke hadn't have reacted it would have looked like iriminage but instead of the arm going around the neck, his fist would have punched the guy. Kind of simple really. Was good ;).

Marc can probably explain this one a lot better, he might have been there.

John:

My favorite quote from my teacher (Imaizumi Sensei) was that if you move properly, you do not need technique ;) ! Most people have some desire to preserve their well-being and this even takes place at a preconscious level. If the fist is suddenly in your face, your body is typically adjusting to get out of the way before you even are consciously aware of the threat.

A good number of years ago (also!), Imaizumi Sensei was demonstrating a technique with one of my sempai. This guy is big, strong and a good fighter. He attacked Sensei so hard and determined that he kind of turned off that switch of self-preservation. He ran right into Sensei's knuckle. Sensei was pulling his fist back because he felt that this person was not attacking in the most sensible manner.... This guy was literally knocked out on his feet. He is standing in a daze while Sensei is yelling at him because he was a senior student and he should have been able to protect himself and respond appropriately to a real threat. The sempai was never aware of his being yelled at and when he came to, he knew to sit down right away. To this day, the sempai still does not remember the correct attack that he was doing..... It was both scary and funny to watch. I don't think that anybody at the dojo is stupid enough to take a fall for Imaizumi Sensei and expect to be used again as uke. We ALWAYS give it our best shot. The more senior of us, know how to protect ourselves. The amusing part is watching the young-bloods engage in futile resistance and/or the stupid "what if" only to find out that ukemi is about receiving energy safetly, rather than making yourself vulnerable to something worse coming down the pike....

The Systema video clip posted clearly points out how we can use the body's preconscious responses to certain types of movement to offset balance and attention so that a person is on the way down before contact is being made. Aikido done well, like Imaizumi Sensei does, uses alot of the same stuff as seen in that video clip.

Regards,

marc abrams

sakumeikan
04-07-2011, 10:28 AM
Hi Folks,
If as uke I was intent on [for example ] on making jodan tsuki to Tori and Tori preempted my thrust and made an atemi to my face I think I would be inclined to bite the dust rather than have a non surgical nose job done on me with a fist .However in terms of maai I would not attempt to rearrange my partners nose if I am not within distance.Neither would I expect to be felled by Tori at a distance of ten /12 ft .Like Mr Ellis I have never been thrown in manner expressed by the no touch type Shihans. I have of course [as my nasal profile will tell you]been subjected to many a premptive clip on my classic John Barrymore nose.Hence my comments about doing a ukemi to escape a potential bash on the nose.Common sense I say.Better to bite the dust than to look like Rocky Balboa.
Cheers, Joe.

Mark Freeman
04-07-2011, 12:31 PM
Personally speaking I would love to try these no touch throws, so if you can do them can you try to do one on me? Since it's no touch, how far apart do we need to be for it to work? Cm's, metres, in the same room? Maybe you could try from where you are now and see if you can throw me?
I could try and knock you down with my chi balls aswell if you want :p

Hi Gornall,

No touch thows are a part of aikido practice as demonstrated by Ueshiba, if he was doing them, I'm unsure why there is so much controversy over them in the aikido community. They are not magical or mystical, just a result of intent, timing, correct movement, leading, aiki and uke's desire for self preservation and keeping co-ordinated.

Michael Varin's post above is correct, there can be collusion, of course (much of aikido practice has to be this way, otherwise how on earth would we learn anything?) but they can be real with no pretence.

However, they do rely on uke making a committed attack and following through with that attack, keeping their intention on the target they are going for. There is no way I could hope to 'throw' someone who is not actively giving me an attack to work with.

You are way too far away for me to throw you up there in the Northeast, but if you were down here in devon a matter of inches away, going full tilt for my centre, then I might be able to give you the experience;)

regards

Mark

Diana Frese
04-07-2011, 02:44 PM
I am sooo going to get in trouble with this one, but hey, they mentioned the Muppets in the circle. I like the muppets, but I have not seen that many episodes. So here's one from the comics:
Lucy holding the football, Charlie Brown remembers that the year before Lucy moved the football just as he was trying to kick it from a running start -- and he went flying. (Nevertheless he tries it again every year)

Seriously, good discussion on both sides.

matty_mojo911
04-07-2011, 09:16 PM
Thanks everyone for taking the time to comment - and I'm sorry if this has been discussed before. But I'm guessing that everything gets discussed again at some point.

Thankyou for the various links.

In answer to various points:

I have studied philosophy - a lot.

There were some interesting points about "intent" and getting out of the way of a fist, or wearing it. That I understand. However in other styles (like BJJ for instance) if you did attack like that, we'd think you an idiot on the other side of the coin Aikido attacks should have energy, so there is a balancing act I guess.

Anyway - I was more talking about the line of Ukes all supporting each other, then Sensei (some feet away) waves his hand and the line falls over. Is it just me, or is this type of thing just painfull to watch.

Thanks for your comments, I find this topic very interesting, particulalry in this modern scientific world.

matty_mojo911
04-07-2011, 09:21 PM
Lucy holding the football, Charlie Brown remembers that the year before Lucy moved the football just as he was trying to kick it from a running start -- and he went flying. (Nevertheless he tries it again every year)

Seriously, good discussion on both sides.

Well I guess Charlie had intent, and Lucy was demonstrating "no touch throwing' then. Love it - I'll remember this one.

hughrbeyer
04-07-2011, 09:45 PM
I was more talking about the line of Ukes all supporting each other, then Sensei (some feet away) waves his hand and the line falls over. Is it just me, or is this type of thing just painfull to watch.

It's not just you.

Charles Hill
04-07-2011, 10:34 PM
Anyway - I was more talking about the line of Ukes all supporting each other, then Sensei (some feet away) waves his hand and the line falls over. Is it just me, or is this type of thing just painfull to watch.

Then that means that the "Sensei" not only can effect his uke with a wave of his hand, he can effect you Matt and Hugh over massive amounts of space and time. If you realize that I am not joking or trying to be funny, you might realize the validity and usefulness of no touch, psychic work.

matty_mojo911
04-07-2011, 10:55 PM
Well maybe he has. I also watched a clip on Youtube the other night of a baby laughing, it made me laugh - that effected me.

Maybe it is the Quantum Effect whereby one particle despite having no physical conatct with another effects it. A proven scientific principle.

Perhaps we should enlist a quantum physicist to look at it all?

Dave de Vos
04-08-2011, 02:51 AM
Well maybe he has. I also watched a clip on Youtube the other night of a baby laughing, it made me laugh - that effected me.

Maybe it is the Quantum Effect whereby one particle despite having no physical conatct with another effects it. A proven scientific principle.

Perhaps we should enlist a quantum physicist to look at it all?

I'm a physics teacher by education. I have studies some quantum physics in my education and from personal interest. By no means I would call myself an expert, but I have some knowledge about it.

You don't need quantum physics for affecting without visible contact. Gravity and electromagnetic force also affect without visible contact. In reality there is contact at a submicroscopic level, because tiny particles travel between source and target to transfer energy and momentum, but we can't see them (like radio waves).

There's always some delay involved with transfer of energy and momentum, because these transfer particles cannot travel faster than the speed of light. Most of the time we don't notice this delay because light is extremely fast (it only takes a nanosecond to travel three meters).

One of the peculiarities of quantum physics is that some quantum effects occur without delay over large distances, ruling out submicroscopic contact by transfer particles. While this is an interesting and puzzling phenomenon, I don't think it helps to explain no touch throws. It would be very hard to measure whether there is a nanosecond delay in no touch throws or not. But I expect the delay exists because no touch throws would require a macroscopic transfer of energy and momentum, which is limited by the speed of light even in quantum physics.

That said, I think the only transfer of energy and momentum in no touch throws is the transfer of light and heat from nage's body to uke's eyes and body, which is hardly enough to throw uke. I believe uke moves himself, consiously or not.

CarlRylander
04-08-2011, 03:27 AM
Bruce Lee'one-inch punch has been filmed, and I know of someone who knocked someone out that way.

You've just got to move faster.

niall
04-08-2011, 03:52 AM
Matt you mentioned enlightenment a few times and that O Sensei claimed to have it. Where exactly? Thanks.

Walter Martindale
04-08-2011, 08:15 AM
I suspect that a lot of no-touch throws require slightly more than 0.15 seconds for someone to realize that Master wants him/her to react.
Oh, he's moving
Oh, I'm supposed to fall
Oh, I'm taking ukemi.
or if Master is behind, maybe he or she exhales a certain way so there's an audible cue that uke is supposed to collapse in a heap of jelly.
Lots of movement/reaction/response time research has shown that if you change what someone is trying to react to, it takes about 140 to 150 milliseconds for the person to perceive, process, and respond. They've done it mainly in professional sport where (for example) goal tenders have to respond to someone tipping a hockey puck on its way to the goal - Goalie sees puck on its way to net, starts to react, and if there's no preceding clue that the puck is going to be deflected (i.e., a stick in his/her field of vision moving toward the path of the puck with the intent of deflecting it), it takes about 140-150 ms (a few people are faster) to see the deflection, process the fact that it has deflected, and send out a signal to the muscles that a change of direction is needed. I've long ago discarded the text books otherwise I'd give you some citations. It's the research that they use to set up false-start signals in international track competition - if the pressure on the start block in the sprint comes before a certain amount of time has occurred, they know that the runner was starting to move before the sound of the gun could have been transmitted through the air, pressed on the ear-drums, vibrated the ear-bones, stimulated the nerves in the ear, reached the brain, and been sent out to the muscles in a co-ordinated explosion of effort.

Oh, gosh, sensei wants me to fall... I can see from 3 meters away that he's extending Ki so I'd better cringe and go jello..

However - if Master (or partner in training, for that matter) is about to take my head off, I'm hitting the ground to get out of the way of the strike/neck crank/whatever. It's either that or get hurt. That of course depends on my being able to perceive the danger in time to do something about getting out of the way. - I get hit more often than others because in the 140-150 millisecond response time stuff, I'm a little on the slower side - or I was when I was in my 20s, and 30 years hasn't sped me up.

Demetrio Cereijo
04-08-2011, 09:21 AM
However - if Master (or partner in training, for that matter) is about to take my head off, I'm hitting the ground to get out of the way of the strike/neck crank/whatever. It's either that or get hurt.

There are more options than going airborne for avoiding a strike.

DonMagee
04-08-2011, 10:46 AM
Always reminds me of this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcGbyRuA6SE

Here's a guy doing what most people say takes chi, ki, magic, whatever and claims to be doing none of those things, just basic mentalist/magician tricks.

I should state that I'm a big fan of Derren Brown

Walter Martindale
04-08-2011, 10:59 AM
There are more options than going airborne for avoiding a strike.

Yes. there's the 'if I do this there are these hundred options' - or one brief example bashed out in a bit of a hurry.

jeremymcmillan
04-08-2011, 11:34 AM
When my sister was in university many years ago, she saved a dog from the pound, Bonnie, who was big and a bit aggressive. Bonnie had a bad habit of chasing cats and my sister was worried what might happen if Bonnie ever caught one. One day, Bonnie saw a rather large cat sitting on a porch and took off after it. This cat not only didn't run, it stood up ready to fight. Bonnie saw this and hit the brakes, ending up tumbling into a bush. She then walked back to my sister with her tail between her legs. If this cat could do it, I imagine O'Sensei could too.

I recommend checking out the Systema teacher, Mikhail Ryabko's DVD, Beyond the Physical. Mr. Ryabko explains the "psychic" work eloquently and gives a bunch of drills to do.

Alex Kostic shows/explains some of it in the clip a couple of minutes in. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_jboskipAI

Beautiful examples bear repeating!

Demetrio Cereijo
04-08-2011, 01:07 PM
Yes. there's the 'if I do this there are these hundred options' - or one brief example bashed out in a bit of a hurry.

Not really sure about what you mean, but your "binary" approach (go airborne or get hurt) leaves out the duck, parry, block, counter striking, etc options available for when you see an incoming strike. People do what are conditioned to do.

Demetrio Cereijo
04-08-2011, 01:22 PM
Here's a guy doing what most people say takes chi, ki, magic, whatever and claims to be doing none of those things, just basic mentalist/magician tricks.
He says he's doing mentalism to confuse you.
:D

graham christian
04-08-2011, 01:42 PM
Well maybe he has. I also watched a clip on Youtube the other night of a baby laughing, it made me laugh - that effected me.

Maybe it is the Quantum Effect whereby one particle despite having no physical conatct with another effects it. A proven scientific principle.

Perhaps we should enlist a quantum physicist to look at it all?

Hi Matt.
I agree with no touch throwing but the type you describe as someone feet away waving his hand and the uke falling over I disagree with as far as Aikido goes.

The no touch throw I am talking about and consider a great part of Aikido is kokyunage albeit an 'advanced' kokyunage.

The scene you describe I have seen on the net and it's called Ki. This I disagree with and yet if I was to allow the possibility of it being real then I would put it under the heading of mesmerism.

Advanced kokyu gets accused of uke collusion yet that just shows me a lack of reality on kokyu by those who think that. On the other hand those mesmeric demonstrations are due to a collusion taught to the students much like a hypnotist telling you what to do.

So quantum physics may be able to verify the effect of Kokyu, which I may add follows a principle of joining and being with rather than standing at a distance. However a hypnotist or some expert in mesmerism I sure could explain your example.

That's my take on it.

Regards.G.

Walter Martindale
04-08-2011, 02:39 PM
Not really sure about what you mean, but your "binary" approach (go airborne or get hurt) leaves out the duck, parry, block, counter striking, etc options available for when you see an incoming strike. People do what are conditioned to do.

"Bashed out" is a way of saying "typed"...one example, typed, and I was in a hurry at the time.

Yes, there are lots of things a person can do to not get hit. Hit first with 168 grains of copper jacketed lead from 900 m is a good option but that's not the context. Another real good option is to not be where the hit is aimed at when it gets there. When someone's on the street trying to hit me I'd rather be sitting inside, enjoying a nice glass of Guinness or Murphy's, or a Dalwhinnie, or Lagavulin, or a Talisker, or, or...
However - the context was - if "sensei" or "master" is about to take my head off (in an aikido practice), I'm taking ukemi. Ukemi can be hitting the ground (as I mentioned), joining (but that might defeat sensei's demonstration of the technique - or it might just help sensei demonstrate the technique, depending on how the blend/join goes) or countering, but... that wasn't the point.

The point was - the guy's actually got to be a real threat to make contact for me to crank up the ukemi, or he's just waving his arms. Mentalists aside, people can wave their arms all they want until the maai is such that contact is possible...

CarlRylander
04-10-2011, 06:04 AM
Is it possible, that, if Bruce Lee could do a one-inch punch, O sensei could do a 1cm throw?

Not exactly no touch, just concentrated force?

OwlMatt
04-10-2011, 07:51 AM
I have seen one sensei do what I would call no touch throws, but these were cases of the sensei tricking his students into tripping or losing their balance with his movements, not the use of telekinetic ki. He makes no claims of this being reliable martial technique.

Larry Feldman
04-10-2011, 08:24 PM
I had heard all the 'legend' and mystical discussions about no touch throws. At Shodan (Ki Society) I started training with a senior student of Imaizumi, and the man himself. One of the things that impressed me was that no touch throws were not just talked about as mystical stuff but practiced as a more finesse version of some techniques. Plainly done and practiced. A more sophisticated version of your usual stuff.

The thing that was very interesting, was that the techniques as practiced did not change when done no touch style. The timimg and tempo did, but the techniques themselves really did not.

Another difference from what I had been training in, is that Imiazumi does emphasize moving techniques from the start of your training. The transition from moving style or 'come to hold' made the transistion to no touch natural and logical. It was not done on every technique, but where you could execute a no touch, it was based on being held, or someone coming to hold you. The other part of this approach was that if you moved to slow (or late) in a no touch, all that happenned was that uke made contact, and you executed the technique the same way.

From a strictly physical standpoint, the no touch throw puts you in a place to smash someone in the face or head - so they usually move their head or stop it from moving, the feet continue forward and you get a throw. I jokingly tell my classs, that the 'missing' O'Sensei video's are when he was smashing all the ukes, whom now move their heads to avoid being hit, and falling from the loss of balance. Truthfully most had trained in other arts, and understood the implictions of a fist being waived at your head.
For the student who doesn't or can't react - we would typically lay your palm on his head and move it out of the way for him/her, knocking them down without hitting them.

From an internal training standpoint, if you get a committed attack, you should feel like the uke has 'radar lock' on you and you lead him from that connection.

If it is of real interest to you, I suggest you find someone who can teach it in the sturucture that Imaizumi, and his students do. But it will change your Aikido.

GB-UK
04-11-2011, 03:55 AM
I had heard all the 'legend' and mystical discussions about no touch throws. At Shodan (Ki Society) I started training with a senior student of Imaizumi, and the man himself. One of the things that impressed me was that no touch throws were not just talked about as mystical stuff but practiced as a more finesse version of some techniques. Plainly done and practiced. A more sophisticated version of your usual stuff.

The thing that was very interesting, was that the techniques as practiced did not change when done no touch style. The timimg and tempo did, but the techniques themselves really did not.

Another difference from what I had been training in, is that Imiazumi does emphasize moving techniques from the start of your training. The transition from moving style or 'come to hold' made the transistion to no touch natural and logical. It was not done on every technique, but where you could execute a no touch, it was based on being held, or someone coming to hold you. The other part of this approach was that if you moved to slow (or late) in a no touch, all that happenned was that uke made contact, and you executed the technique the same way.

From a strictly physical standpoint, the no touch throw puts you in a place to smash someone in the face or head - so they usually move their head or stop it from moving, the feet continue forward and you get a throw. I jokingly tell my classs, that the 'missing' O'Sensei video's are when he was smashing all the ukes, whom now move their heads to avoid being hit, and falling from the loss of balance. Truthfully most had trained in other arts, and understood the implictions of a fist being waived at your head.
For the student who doesn't or can't react - we would typically lay your palm on his head and move it out of the way for him/her, knocking them down without hitting them.

From an internal training standpoint, if you get a committed attack, you should feel like the uke has 'radar lock' on you and you lead him from that connection.

If it is of real interest to you, I suggest you find someone who can teach it in the sturucture that Imaizumi, and his students do. But it will change your Aikido.

I see where you coming from here and I believe that some are getting confused over the term throw. You are stating here if I am reading right, that if a person is moving to avoid a strike and looses balance in this action and lands on the floor, this is classed as a throw. Where as others are stating that to throw someone with a throwing technique you can only do this through making contact?
Personally if someone was attempting to strike me I'm not going to lean back in such a way as to loose balance to avoid it, I'm going to intercept that attack/block it and strike/throw them.
I wouldn't class what you are saying as a throw, as you state you are attempting to strike someone in the face.

SeiserL
04-11-2011, 05:44 AM
I have personally experienced and done no touch throws.

No magic.

IMHO, its about timing.

One way is easy with attackers who over commit and extend. Technically they are depending on you being there to get hit and support their attack. If at the last second you move off the attack line, there is no support and the person falls by their own momentum.

The other timing is by not moving too fast or too slow. If I irimi too fast, I hit the guy. Too slow, and they intercept it. A middle speed allows the mind to detect it and attempt to evade it. The evasion takes the balance.

Just my take from my own experience.

GB-UK
04-11-2011, 06:13 AM
I have personally experienced and done no touch throws.

No magic.

IMHO, its about timing.

One way is easy with attackers who over commit and extend. Technically they are depending on you being there to get hit and support their attack. If at the last second you move off the attack line, there is no support and the person falls by their own momentum.

I see what you are saying here but you are not throwing them, they are falling because they have over extended and lost balance.
The other timing is by not moving too fast or too slow. If I irimi too fast, I hit the guy. Too slow, and they intercept it. A middle speed allows the mind to detect it and attempt to evade it. The evasion takes the balance.

Just my take from my own experience.

Again I see what you mean but are you throwing them or are they falling because of over extension? Most people with a minimum of training in most martial arts are trained to not over extend so this may not work on all people.

Marc Abrams
04-11-2011, 07:33 AM
Again I see what you mean but are you throwing them or are they falling because of over extension? Most people with a minimum of training in most martial arts are trained to not over extend so this may not work on all people.

Gornall:

These types of "throws" even work with well-trained martial artists. A lot of the unbalancing has to do with teaching yourself to move in a manner that the opponent cannot perceive until it is too late.

Regards,

marc abrams

GB-UK
04-11-2011, 08:10 AM
Gornall:

These types of "throws" even work with well-trained martial artists. A lot of the unbalancing has to do with teaching yourself to move in a manner that the opponent cannot perceive until it is too late.

Regards,

marc abrams

And only seem to work on the students of the person who has mastered these special moves?

OwlMatt
04-11-2011, 08:21 AM
I have personally experienced and done no touch throws.

No magic.

IMHO, its about timing.

One way is easy with attackers who over commit and extend. Technically they are depending on you being there to get hit and support their attack. If at the last second you move off the attack line, there is no support and the person falls by their own momentum.

The other timing is by not moving too fast or too slow. If I irimi too fast, I hit the guy. Too slow, and they intercept it. A middle speed allows the mind to detect it and attempt to evade it. The evasion takes the balance.

Just my take from my own experience.

This is the kind of "no-touch" throw I have seen in action. There's no telekinesis at work here.

Nicholas Eschenbruch
04-11-2011, 08:39 AM
And only seem to work on the students of the person who has mastered these special moves?

IMHO, they "work" on those who have been martially trained to avoid impact. If someone prefers to walk into the impact, well, they turn into atemi or 'hard-touch' throws - as Marc outlined further above. In this sense, IMHO again, there is no 'no-touch throw' as a distinct category of throw, just an intelligent reflex response on uke's part to a real threat. (and of course (1) lots of collusive bullshit and (2) some 'mind-stuff' I have not experienced myself but credible sources tell my people like Ushiro Kenji can do it.)

PS: Gornall, please give my regards to Darren.

Marc Abrams
04-11-2011, 08:49 AM
And only seem to work on the students of the person who has mastered these special moves?

Gornall:

I appreciate the sarcasm in that I typically enjoy and use that sense of humor myself. I then take things one step further and go out and find out if I am right or I am wrong. Let's see, I still study directly with Imaizumi Sensei and I study directly with Ushiro Sensei. The first is easy, I just go to NYC. The second person entails me going to Japan several times a year and bringing him here several times a year. In other words, my initial skepticism and base mindset were wrong. Funny things is, both of those teachers seem to have no problems demonstrating those skills on anybody. If the person has not acted in a self-preserving manner, then techniques are simply not necessary..... Please feel free to test people out for yourself. I would particularly recommend that you test Ushiro Sensei out. I always love to watch a good show ;) ! Venture out across the pond, Ushiro Sensei will be at my dojo next week. I am sure that you will have no problem disproving his "skills". Then again, if you are wrong, I am sure you would have no problem acknowledging that as well.

Regards,

Marc Abrams

SeiserL
04-11-2011, 09:51 AM
Again I see what you mean but are you throwing them or are they falling because of over extension? Most people with a minimum of training in most martial arts are trained to not over extend so this may not work on all people.
IMHO, its relatively easy to get even trained people (except at rather high levels) to over extend.

So yes, I tend not to throw them but let them fall because of their own body momentum, mechanics, and alignment. Also because either their mind really wants to hit me or their mind really doesn't want to be hit by me.

GB-UK
04-11-2011, 11:10 AM
IMHO, its relatively easy to get even trained people (except at rather high levels) to over extend.

So yes, I tend not to throw them but let them fall because of their own body momentum, mechanics, and alignment. Also because either their mind really wants to hit me or their mind really doesn't want to be hit by me.

Is this where the confusion lies with no touch throws? That the no touch throws are not actually throws but people using ukemi to get out of the way of being hit themselves?

GB-UK
04-11-2011, 11:17 AM
Gornall:

I appreciate the sarcasm in that I typically enjoy and use that sense of humor myself. I then take things one step further and go out and find out if I am right or I am wrong. Let's see, I still study directly with Imaizumi Sensei and I study directly with Ushiro Sensei. The first is easy, I just go to NYC. The second person entails me going to Japan several times a year and bringing him here several times a year. In other words, my initial skepticism and base mindset were wrong. Funny things is, both of those teachers seem to have no problems demonstrating those skills on anybody. If the person has not acted in a self-preserving manner, then techniques are simply not necessary..... Please feel free to test people out for yourself. I would particularly recommend that you test Ushiro Sensei out. I always love to watch a good show ;) ! Venture out across the pond, Ushiro Sensei will be at my dojo next week. I am sure that you will have no problem disproving his "skills". Then again, if you are wrong, I am sure you would have no problem acknowledging that as well.

Regards,

Marc Abrams

Sorry if you think I was being sarcastic. But I've seen a lot of so called masters in TCMA's whose techniques work fine on their own students but when a non student is introduced they fail miserably. For example there was a video doing the rounds of Leung Ting (wing tsun GM) being owned by a member of an invited audience to one of his demo's, not to mention all the Gracie challenge vids that can be found on you-tube.
Is this the Ushiro Sensei (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlvGlCP9R8Q) you were talking about? If it is I think that is someone I would really like to train under at some point!

Marc Abrams
04-11-2011, 01:08 PM
Sorry if you think I was being sarcastic. But I've seen a lot of so called masters in TCMA's whose techniques work fine on their own students but when a non student is introduced they fail miserably. For example there was a video doing the rounds of Leung Ting (wing tsun GM) being owned by a member of an invited audience to one of his demo's, not to mention all the Gracie challenge vids that can be found on you-tube.
Is this the Ushiro Sensei (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlvGlCP9R8Q) you were talking about? If it is I think that is someone I would really like to train under at some point!

Gornall:

My apologies for misinterpreting. The Ushiro Sensei in that video is the person I train under. I fully agree with you regarding a degree of complicity that can occur within a system. I always look to see if it can work with someone without any experience or knowledge as to what will happen.

Regards,

marc abrams

Gorgeous George
04-11-2011, 02:00 PM
This guy's 'no-touch' throws:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNAWff9Daqg

...are obviously not what are being talked about by certain people, who are referring to what happens when a fist or arm comes flying at your face, and due to possessing a very wise outlook, and instinct for self-preservation, you move, and take ukemi - because you'll get hit in the face, otherwise.

If you stand there, with your best posture imaginable, not over-extended, and I swing a sword at your neck, will you move - or will you stand there and 'make me throw you'?

Gorgeous George
04-11-2011, 02:04 PM
...and even this dude moves out of the way when the Kiai Master wafts his hand at him in a real contest:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djUKqxGWj_Y&feature=related

Marc Abrams
04-11-2011, 02:35 PM
...and even this dude moves out of the way when the Kiai Master wafts his hand at him in a real contest:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djUKqxGWj_Y&feature=related

Unfortunately, people like that believe their own powers so deeply and get their students to buy into it as deeply as well so that when reality rears it's ugly head, it does not tickle. The other stuff that many of us are talking about does not require such a collusive process. Instead, this other stuff requires a healthy degree of self-preservation on the part of the attacker. If the person has over-ridden this self-protective instinct, then the odds are that this person should only play with sports and not with encounters that can result in more dangerous outcomes.

Marc Abrams

Demetrio Cereijo
04-11-2011, 03:00 PM
Ushiro Sensei in the same thread the the "Kiai Master".

What's next?

Dave de Vos
04-11-2011, 03:33 PM
Two distinct versions of no touch throws seem to be discussed in parallel here:

1: no touch throws with several feet distance between uke's head and nage's hand

2: no touch throws with only a few inches distance between uke's head and nage's hand

It seems most of us agree that 1 is nonsense, while 2 seems to be fairly common.

Larry Feldman
04-11-2011, 03:46 PM
As far as the 'Ki Masters'....Tohei was in the U.S. at a party, and was asked if he could turn the light switch off (that was across the room) using his Ki.

He said 'of course', the room fell silent and he got up, walked across the room and turned the switch. He said that he used his Ki to do it....

As I have done more and more come to hold and moving techniques, and other practice, you do tend to get a better 'feel' about when someone is coming to attack you. Much more work to be done. I look at O'Sensei's skill at that as having been very well defined - he could sense the intention, like you or I could feel a ripple in a calm pool. He just didn't need the pool. Yet still no flaming Ki balls from across the room.

One of these days, hopefully soon I will attempt to make the Ushiro seminar.

Marc Abrams
04-11-2011, 03:53 PM
Ushiro Sensei in the same thread the the "Kiai Master".

What's next?

Demetrio:

How about a match between those two teachers :eek: !

Marc Abrams

Demetrio Cereijo
04-11-2011, 04:03 PM
Kiai mastah wins. Ushiro will be defeated by the deadly technique of much laughing.

If done right no can defense!!!

GB-UK
04-11-2011, 04:08 PM
Two distinct versions of no touch throws seem to be discussed in parallel here:

1: no touch throws with several feet distance between uke's head and nage's hand

2: no touch throws with only a few inches distance between uke's head and nage's hand

It seems most of us agree that 1 is nonsense, while 2 seems to be fairly common.

I would agree 99% but I still would not call someone taking ukemi instead of being punched in the nose a throw, as who exactly is throwing who? The person throwing the strike or do you throw yourself?

Demetrio Cereijo
04-11-2011, 04:13 PM
I would agree 99% but I still would not call someone taking ukemi instead of being punched in the nose a throw, as who exactly is throwing who? The person throwing the strike or do you throw yourself?

It happens both ways.

Sometimes the one who is about to being hit throws himself to avoid the strike, sometimes the attempt to avoid the strike is not compatible with keeping balance due to the inertia of the (usually very commited) attack.

sakumeikan
04-11-2011, 04:41 PM
I would agree 99% but I still would not call someone taking ukemi instead of being punched in the nose a throw, as who exactly is throwing who? The person throwing the strike or do you throw yourself?
Dear Gornall,
Your last sentences raise an interesting [I hope ] point.If Uke makes any contact or attempts to attack Tori, considering the basic principles of Aikido, if these are applied correctly the result of Ukes 'attack ' sees Uke neutralised.So in a manner of speaking Uke himself [by virtue of the fact that he is the aggressor ] is the primary architect of his/her own demise.All that Tori does [again in a manner of speaking ] simply makes it easier for Uke to bite the dust.This surely is being benevolent and assisting Uke to restore Aiki.ie the balance between both parties.No conflict /no fight.
Cheers, Joe.

Demetrio Cereijo
04-11-2011, 04:54 PM
Hi Joe

And when we see Aikido masters like Nishino (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-GmXEYGqfIU), Hirosawa (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvmIaco_SUQ), Watanabe (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BaLmelkgyrw) or Takeda (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkYh_jKJ3DQ) demos, what you would say is the cause of the throws?

NagaBaba
04-11-2011, 05:02 PM
IMHO, its relatively easy to get even trained people (except at rather high levels) to over extend.

So yes, I tend not to throw them but let them fall because of their own body momentum, mechanics, and alignment. Also because either their mind really wants to hit me or their mind really doesn't want to be hit by me.
This one is not very high level. However he has already some training.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjleMX9Y1vg

you still believe he will fall "because of his own body momentum, mechanics, and alignment"
hahahahahaha :D you are so funny Lynn....

To all "no touch throwing" believers in this thread - PPL get real. Weak up!!! Urban Legends are dead.Stop being blind - go to nearest MMA gym and throw any BEGINNER only once without touching him, bring video back.... Am I asking still too much?:eek:

RonRagusa
04-11-2011, 05:07 PM
Hi Joe

And when we see Aikido masters like Nishino (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-GmXEYGqfIU), Hirosawa (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvmIaco_SUQ), Watanabe (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BaLmelkgyrw) or Takeda (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkYh_jKJ3DQ) demos, what you would say is the cause of the throws?

Very obliging ukes.

Ron

Mark Freeman
04-11-2011, 05:07 PM
I would agree 99% but I still would not call someone taking ukemi instead of being punched in the nose a throw, as who exactly is throwing who? The person throwing the strike or do you throw yourself?

both, you can't really have one without the other. The type 2 no touch throw works on the level of mind/intent. It only works for real if ukes attack is with intent and purpose, purpose as in a grab to control, a cut or a strike of some kind. Intent in making that attack count. All attacks by uke should be as on balance and centred as possible. Nage's role is to extend his intent into uke before the attack is instigated. When uke makes his attack nage should be in aiki with uke at that point, from then on, if nage can lead ukes mind, then the body has no choice but to follow, uke ends up on the ground as a result. Timing, concentration, proper centered movement, relaxation, intent and bags of practice, simple.

The type 1 throw that can be seen over some distance seem to me be nonsense if only because a real attack would never be initiate from such a distance, therefore, must be working on some other level. I would love to feel that sort of power if it exists. But it does seem that you need your own specially trained students to be that good! My own teacher, could be considered to be the best Ki aikido teacher in the country and he has thrown me with type 2, and a lovely feeling it is too, but not with type 1:)

regards,

Mark

Demetrio Cereijo
04-11-2011, 05:10 PM
...go to nearest MMA gym and throw any BEGINNER only once without touching him,
Been there, done that.

bring video back.... Am I asking still too much?
I'd like to see video of you in a MMA gym doing touch throws, deal?

NagaBaba
04-11-2011, 05:34 PM
Been there, done that.
blah blah blah still no video

I'd like to see video of you in a MMA gym doing touch throws, deal?
I'm not claiming anything. Why should I prove that God doesn't exist? hahahah

Demetrio Cereijo
04-11-2011, 06:07 PM
blah blah blah still no video

Quid pro quo. Your video sparring in full contact MMA against someone who is not a tomato can vs mine.

I'm not claiming anything. Why should I prove that God doesn't exist? hahahah
I didn't say you claimed anything, But I suspect God's existence could be proven scientifically before you step in a MMA gym for real sparring. I'd like to be proven wrong, oh unpronuntiable one.

Tenkan of steel clip is sooooo dated.
:D

Walter Martindale
04-11-2011, 10:51 PM
I'm not claiming anything. Why should I prove that God doesn't exist? hahahah

Shouldn't that be 'gods don't exist'? oops - wrong thread... (if one god is real, then why not all of them, converse question, too?)

matty_mojo911
04-11-2011, 11:06 PM
IMHO, its relatively easy to get even trained people (except at rather high levels) to over extend.

So yes, I tend not to throw them but let them fall because of their own body momentum, mechanics, and alignment. Also because either their mind really wants to hit me or their mind really doesn't want to be hit by me.

Hi Lynn

I've done lots of styles, outside of aikido, and one thing is a real fact. It is very hard to get people to over extend who have had training, boxers rarely do so, they throw punches from a balanced point. Watch a judo match, all that stand up grabbing and scruffing is required because neither is willing to extend, they are pulling all their energy inwards to maintain balance. In BJJ it is a mortal sin to over extend, do that I'll take your back and choke you out in seconds.

Yes trained people do over extend, in Aikido, because it is about flow, energy and it is dynamic - which is what I love about the art.

My take on these things, is and always will be, that it is all legitimate for the Art that we(you) do but so many people make the mistake of translating what works in the aikido Dojo to outside of it.

That is my point in this whole discussion. We must recognise what works in the Dojo and what doesn't. So many Aikido instructors just don't get it, instructors have a responsibility to their students to understand this deeply. But to do so sometimes requires a level of self understanding, and at times eating large amounts of humble pie that most will not consider, or do this.

And so the myths are continued to the next generation...

GB-UK
04-12-2011, 12:54 AM
There are some. Really good points. Being made in this thread, and without a flame war happening! This is so refreshing and to me very informative, I'm learning a lot!

Diana Frese
04-12-2011, 06:15 AM
What Gornall Bell just said.

I think I wrote something similar earlier in this thread, about really good posts on both sides. I was intending to thank Carina for posting Niall's blog entry on Watanabe Sensei, and by the way I wrote one on him myself, having joined later in the year and not knowing about Niall's until after I had posted mine. By the way I had listed Watanabe Sensei as one of my main teachers in my profile.

My husband says sometimes no touch throws do happen in what I may term action sparring, the type he and his brother used to do, he figured out it might sometimes happen,but that's another story. I'm not going to try to duplicate what others have said better than I, and I haven't seen Watanabe Sensei since 1975 and only exchanged a couple of sentences at the dojo and coffee shop in a small group of people, so I'm guessing that the no touch throws in the demo clips were to show the extreme development of leading, etc.

Watanabe Sensei was, and I am sure still is, an excellent teacher. Another guess is, similar to a recommendation years ago someone explained, that weapons are an excellent way, as extensions of the empty hand, to teach the regular empty handed techniques. Likewise, might the no touch ways be a way to teach the extension of the "regular " forms?

As for personal experience I grew to really like teaching katate tori, then gradually go into the leading forms, to make sure students kept paying attention to the connection between uke and nage....

Well, this is probably old stuff to many of you, and I haven't taught much in the past twenty or more years, so I'll defer to the other side of the debate, to be fair.

It may surprise y'all but Tony W. has been helping my husband and myself with advice and training suggestions for quite some time both in the threads to begin with and then via email. Job and home repairs have kept us really busy, let alone winter related .... but when we do get back to training we will include them. They are very valuable.

Chuck likes judo, so Tony's Tomiki style perspective is very interesting to him, athough he also likes what my "lineages" (Francis called my list of teachers "eclectic") have to offer.

Actually it's interesting to both of us. I'm going to include a quote from one of Tony's emails on self defense as soon as I can copy it longhand off the email and then type it onto a post for you to read. I'm still technologically challenged, have dial up video and am very far behind in watching clips people have kindly posted. Furthermore I didn't have time to study how to transfer from email to a web post. Sorry about that. Well, later today for the post, I'm posting this for now...

Diana Frese
04-12-2011, 09:02 AM
This is excerpted from an email of Tony's and pretty succinctly summarizes his opinion of no touch throws:

" In all the years of Tomiki/Shodokan training as well as
other martial arts training I have yet to see a no touch throw
that people on AW are so happy to believe and delude
themselves to!!!!!" (more quote to follow)

Strong words, but Tony is very self defense oriented and it is very important, I feel to remind students that they should keep self defense in mind as any of us might need it some day... I'll look up Tony's quote on that.

SeiserL
04-12-2011, 11:22 AM
you still believe he will fall "because of his own body momentum, mechanics, and alignment" hahahahahaha :D you are so funny Lynn....
Thank you for illustrating the point that its easy to get people to over extend and lose their own sense of balance.

As I tell my wife, I am funny but not nice.

graham christian
04-12-2011, 11:45 AM
A friend of mine, also a very experienced over 30 yrs. Aikido teacher says to his students that Aikido is the matial art of loving protection. He also points out that for many it is a matial art of self defence.

This is only put here so that we can understand where peoples viewpoints are coming from with understanding rather than opposition.

I think most know which viewpoint I teach from but that doesn't mean I don't understand so called opposition views to mine for to me they are not opposite, they are different.

So now back to the topic at hand and I will make a statement. Yes I can perform a no touch throw on anyone from any martial art of any weight or size or competance.

Does that mean no matter what? No it doesn't for it does depend on the circumstances.

This also doesn't mean like in the examples given by Demetrio for I do not understand them. It does however mostly come under the aspect of Aikido called Kokyu.

Recently I have been training with a thick set muscular guy who is an experienced judoka.

Now an experienced judo man is very used to countering of any attempt to lead and throw and many other aspects of Aikido so are very good training partners. The point here is he was very interested in two things. One was what he felt and the effect on him when his center line was attacked but the other was when I did forms of Kokyu. He loved it and said he'd never experienced anything like it.

He turned into a little kid jumping up all enthusiastic and saying 'do it again, do it again.'

So this is just to say that there are aspects of Aikido where if trained in a person can do it. It's not magic.

Now when I say it depends on the circumstances I mean being aware of what is needed and applicable to the attack or hold and each time it may be different depending on the attack. Therefore there would be many circumstances where doing such a thing people tend to call 'no touch throwing' would not only not fit but also would not work.( I never use that term personally)

So the word is CAN be done.

Regards.G.

NagaBaba
04-12-2011, 12:23 PM
Quid pro quo. Your video sparring in full contact MMA against someone who is not a tomato can vs mine.

I didn't say you claimed anything, But I suspect God's existence could be proven scientifically before you step in a MMA gym for real sparring. I'd like to be proven wrong, oh unpronuntiable one.

Tenkan of steel clip is sooooo dated.
:D
I didn't claimed anything, so I don't need to publish video - logic is simple. Don't try to impose me your own duty LOL. For God reference, you didn't understand a joke...

***======================================

However I read in this thread" " it is not a magic" "I've done there out of aikido context", "It is very simple to do" and similar prancing claims........
I studied with different O sensei direct students in my short life - ALL of them said directly about no touch throws - " I can't do it". Sundennly , here on Aikiweb we discover some exceptional Martial Artists, with higher level of aikido understanding than O sensei direct students. I'd say - It is AMAZING!!!! But my logical brain tells me - watch out, writing words on internet is cheap.

So I said - PROVE IT with video! Technology is cheap and simple, available everywhere.

For the moment all I see is BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH....

mathewjgano
04-12-2011, 01:14 PM
Sundennly , here on Aikiweb we discover some exceptional Martial Artists, with higher level of aikido understanding than O sensei direct students.


This seems like a bit of a strawman to me. I haven't read anyone here making claims about being able to throw anyone without touching them. They've simply been saying there's a logical reason for thinking about them at all; sometimes attackers will respond to things other than those involving touch. It happens.
Should you form your whole study around that? Probably not or you end up looking like the "kiai master:" bloody nose and unable to handle the wrist grab that led directly to the end of your fight.

Randy Sexton
04-12-2011, 01:19 PM
In my opinion and by my experience in the martial arts I believe the ability to project KI as an energy force is not real. Sorry, Yoda! Good movie but not Aikido.

However, if you feel KI is the ability to mentally and emotionally and perhaps spiritually connect to another human being. That I believe. Having established that connection the other individual knows beyond a doubt that when I atemi to his face that I am coming to his face and am going to go through it leaving him with only two choices. He moves out of the way or gets punched really hard. In his moving, if I stay connected and press toward him directing him to his weakest support his balance begins to fail and continuing to press the attack he will fall to the ground. On the way down he must continually believe he has to go down or he will get punched really hard on the way down to the floor. So he constantly continues to evade breaking his balance all the way to the floor.

Imagine a bear coming at you and is right on top of you but has not physically touched you yet I think he will break your balance and send you to the ground without touching you. Get the idea? That is a Grizzly bear no touch throw.
I believe the connection and intent and continuing the attack is crucial and if the Uke sees it, feels it, believes it he will get the hell out of the way. That is a real no touch throw.

If you line up a bunch of guys and the first in line is connected and you affect him the others who are connected to him will also be affected. However to do it at a range that he feels no real physical threat it won't work unless he feels a connection even at a nonthreatening physical distance. His mind can be affected causing him to subconsciously sway and begin to break his balance. Those physically connected to him will also be affected.

Imagine he is first in line and all his five buddies behind him are touching him and connected to him and as he comes over the rise he sees the Grizzly bear standing up and charging at him full force with bared teeth and claws coming down. What do you think will happen?. That is another Grizzly bear no touch throw for all of us nonbelievers.

Bottom line, it is about connection and staying connected breaking his balance all the way down to the ground by affecting his mind and emotions and his survival instinct. As someone said above have a guy ignore that instinct he gets the punch. Most people are not that stupid but I have had attackers rush in ignoring everything and charging like a bull. Try an energy ball on him! That guy you must connect to him and break his balance and take him down.
]
Food for thought. :)

Doc Sexton

graham christian
04-12-2011, 02:02 PM
Nice meal Randy. Now we're getting nearer the crux of the matter.

Some say you have to disturb the persons center and mind, others say you have to lead their center and mind. Both viewpoints converge on persons center and thus stability and thus also mind 'gone.'

In your examples it took a big ogre and thus fear.

There are so many examples in life of things that have or could take your center or your mind. Think of things that make you nervous for example. The point being that in those states a person could touch you with the lightest of touches and you would fall down for your stability has already left the building. I guarantee someone at some point in your life made you go weak at the knees, now thats pretty much gone.

If you are in motion at these particular times like for instance an object you didn't see on the path whilst you were running then the surprise takes your mind and your stability but it's too late to stop. You hurtle over it and crash to the floor. Thrown by a lump of concrete.

In Aikido it is the motion and energy which takes the opponents mind and center. Aiki motion. The techniques follow and compliment that.

Anyway, simple realities to do with center and mind apparent all around you in your daily life.

Now this has taken my mind long enough.

Regards.G.

jeremymcmillan
04-12-2011, 02:16 PM
Thank you Randy. This is how Ki is taught in my dojo. Your explanation bears repeating, so I quote it in entirety.

Heard the saying that a beginner tries to control his opponent with strength, and an intermediate aikidoka tries to control his opponent with speed, and an experienced aikidoka tries to control his opponent with Ki. A master, however, controls his opponent with his own mind. It is a real magical phenomenon, I like to say, as practiced by Penn and Teller.

Psychologists may be getting closer to explaining how it works by explaining some kinds of learning through Mirror Neurons. No "Spock/Vulcan" mind-meld required. Just get and control your opponent's attention to get a direct line to their brain motor control:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_neuron

In my opinion and by my experience in the martial arts I believe the ability to project KI as an energy force is not real. Sorry, Yoda! Good movie but not Aikido.

However, if you feel KI is the ability to mentally and emotionally and perhaps spiritually connect to another human being. That I believe. Having established that connection the other individual knows beyond a doubt that when I atemi to his face that I am coming to his face and am going to go through it leaving him with only two choices. He moves out of the way or gets punched really hard. In his moving, if I stay connected and press toward him directing him to his weakest support his balance begins to fail and continuing to press the attack he will fall to the ground. On the way down he must continually believe he has to go down or he will get punched really hard on the way down to the floor. So he constantly continues to evade breaking his balance all the way to the floor.

Imagine a bear coming at you and is right on top of you but has not physically touched you yet I think he will break your balance and send you to the ground without touching you. Get the idea? That is a Grizzly bear no touch throw.
I believe the connection and intent and continuing the attack is crucial and if the Uke sees it, feels it, believes it he will get the hell out of the way. That is a real no touch throw.

If you line up a bunch of guys and the first in line is connected and you affect him the others who are connected to him will also be affected. However to do it at a range that he feels no real physical threat it won't work unless he feels a connection even at a nonthreatening physical distance. His mind can be affected causing him to subconsciously sway and begin to break his balance. Those physically connected to him will also be affected.

Imagine he is first in line and all his five buddies behind him are touching him and connected to him and as he comes over the rise he sees the Grizzly bear standing up and charging at him full force with bared teeth and claws coming down. What do you think will happen?. That is another Grizzly bear no touch throw for all of us nonbelievers.

Bottom line, it is about connection and staying connected breaking his balance all the way down to the ground by affecting his mind and emotions and his survival instinct. As someone said above have a guy ignore that instinct he gets the punch. Most people are not that stupid but I have had attackers rush in ignoring everything and charging like a bull. Try an energy ball on him! That guy you must connect to him and break his balance and take him down.
]
Food for thought. :)

Doc Sexton

Demetrio Cereijo
04-12-2011, 02:30 PM
I didn't claimed anything, so I don't need to publish video - logic is simple. Don't try to impose me your own duty LOL.
I know you didn't claim anything. I simply asked for a deal: my clip in MMA for your clip in MMA.

What you want doesn't will come (if it comes) for free.

For God reference, you didn't understand a joke
Try to make better jokes.

I studied with different O sensei direct students in my short life - ALL of them said directly about no touch throws - " I can't do it".
So what?

But my logical brain tells me - watch out, writing words on internet is cheap.
The pot calling the kettle black. ROFLMAO!!!

So I said - PROVE IT with video! Technology is cheap and simple, available everywhere.
Earn the right to watch what you're asking for.

For the moment all I see is BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH....
The same I've seen from you in lot of years, lots of talk but no walk.

matty_mojo911
04-12-2011, 03:03 PM
When I started this thread I was looking for some feedback, as this is no touch throwing is something that both concerns and fascinates me.
The feedback has been great. I've got some fresh ideas on it all, and some new ways to think of it.
I sense this debate could go on for ever. In BJJ we don't get debates like this as it is so clear cut (I.e - you tap out or you pass out).
Aikido isn't clear cut which in many aspects is what makes it so challenging.

guest1234567
04-12-2011, 04:40 PM
What Gornall Bell just said.

I think I wrote something similar earlier in this thread, about really good posts on both sides. I was intending to thank Carina for posting Niall's blog entry on Watanabe Sensei, and by the way I wrote one on him myself, having joined later in the year and not knowing about Niall's until after I had posted mine. By the way I had listed Watanabe Sensei as one of my main teachers in my profile.

My husband says sometimes no touch throws do happen in what I may term action sparring, the type he and his brother used to do, he figured out it might sometimes happen,but that's another story. I'm not going to try to duplicate what others have said better than I, and I haven't seen Watanabe Sensei since 1975 and only exchanged a couple of sentences at the dojo and coffee shop in a small group of people, so I'm guessing that the no touch throws in the demo clips were to show the extreme development of leading, etc.

Watanabe Sensei was, and I am sure still is, an excellent teacher. Another guess is, similar to a recommendation years ago someone explained, that weapons are an excellent way, as extensions of the empty hand, to teach the regular empty handed techniques. Likewise, might the no touch ways be a way to teach the extension of the "regular " forms?

As for personal experience I grew to really like teaching katate tori, then gradually go into the leading forms, to make sure students kept paying attention to the connection between uke and nage....

Well, this is probably old stuff to many of you, and I haven't taught much in the past twenty or more years, so I'll defer to the other side of the debate, to be fair.

It may surprise y'all but Tony W. has been helping my husband and myself with advice and training suggestions for quite some time both in the threads to begin with and then via email. Job and home repairs have kept us really busy, let alone winter related .... but when we do get back to training we will include them. They are very valuable.

Chuck likes judo, so Tony's Tomiki style perspective is very interesting to him, athough he also likes what my "lineages" (Francis called my list of teachers "eclectic") have to offer.

Actually it's interesting to both of us. I'm going to include a quote from one of Tony's emails on self defense as soon as I can copy it longhand off the email and then type it onto a post for you to read. I'm still technologically challenged, have dial up video and am very far behind in watching clips people have kindly posted. Furthermore I didn't have time to study how to transfer from email to a web post. Sorry about that. Well, later today for the post, I'm posting this for now...
Thank you Diana for sharing all this memories and I mentioned that post of Moon in the water because I liked it very much and I thought it could help in this thread.