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GhostBushido
03-29-2011, 10:08 PM
before i begin i mean no disrespect whatsoever but I am trying to answer a question so i come here looking for and answer.Aikido is an art in which the mystery has me wondering so much so people swear its on of the ultimate arts others say its complete bullshit. I currently do judo/bjj which was the safe bet grappling arts but i cant shake this thing inside of me for aikido. so let me explain what i want and u tell me if it can do this im looking for an art with history some spirituality yet i want it to be able to defend me if i need it to so I ask can i get an answer or opinion from you guys pro's cons of aikido good art or fairy magic! thanx!

Diana Frese
03-29-2011, 10:32 PM
A new thread with a good question. In my opinion, both perspectives are possible in Aikido, some people favor one more, some the other. You will find many discussions relating to your question on Aiki Web! See what Aikido dojos are available in your area, and what the training emphasis is, and the frame of mind of the people. And I'll be interested to read what others answer to your questions. By the way, my husband has practiced Karate, Judo and Kung Fu, he says Aikido is real, he has tried it and so has his late brother, with whom he worked out for years in different martial arts, They even joined a boxing gym for a while out of curiosity. I like what one of my teachers once told me, that Aikido takes a lot of effort, but it gave back a lot to him. I wish I remembered exactly what he said, but I think I understand. In your case, what you bring to Aikido is important, not just your body but your frame of mind. Then in training, you learn from others. I hope I have helped encourage you to try Aikido.

crbateman
03-29-2011, 10:47 PM
You may have answered your own question, Steven. As you have pointed out, some people say it works for them, while others say it is BS. You cannot force yourself into it. You can only try in earnest, and if you give it a bit of time, you will know if it suits you.

Marc Abrams
03-30-2011, 02:37 PM
Steven:

People have a remarkable knack for creating the reality that they anticipated. If you look for those things, you can find them in your Aikido, karate, etc.. Work hard enough at what you seek to obtain and I am pretty sure you will find what you're looking for.

Good Luck on your journey!

Marc Abrams

Ron Tisdale
03-30-2011, 03:06 PM
Sigh. Holding my tongue...

Good luck sir.

Best,
Ron

Richard Stevens
03-30-2011, 03:58 PM
No magic. Just hard work.

Ketsan
03-30-2011, 06:21 PM
before i begin i mean no disrespect whatsoever but I am trying to answer a question so i come here looking for and answer.Aikido is an art in which the mystery has me wondering so much so people swear its on of the ultimate arts others say its complete bullshit. I currently do judo/bjj which was the safe bet grappling arts but i cant shake this thing inside of me for aikido. so let me explain what i want and u tell me if it can do this im looking for an art with history some spirituality yet i want it to be able to defend me if i need it to so I ask can i get an answer or opinion from you guys pro's cons of aikido good art or fairy magic! thanx!

Some of it is bullhit. Some of it isn't. BJJ and Judo are fairly standardised, you can turn up at one of their dojos and be fairly sure of what you'll find.
Aikido is totally different. We can't even define Aikido or agree on what it is or what it's for. Two dojo in the same association who's teachers are students of one teacher could be teaching radically different things.
All that can really be said about Aikido is that it's a bunch of people doing a bunch of things that they call Aikido. Beyond that any statement you make about Aikido is a sweeping generalisation.

Other than that the only thing I'd say is that you have to understand that Aikido isn't taught like Judo and BJJ are. You're not taught techniques in Aikido, you're taught kata and if you understand what's being taught in the kata, posture, timing, distancing, body mechanics, psychology then Aikido is a very powerful art.
If you think of it as being techniques then you end up with "But you can't catch punches" or "but that won't work against resistance."
Aikido is a very easy art to misunderstand.

Hope that helps.

SeiserL
03-30-2011, 07:02 PM
My Aikido fits that description.

It is what you make it.

Anjisan
03-30-2011, 07:41 PM
There is such diversity out there within the Aikido community (for better or for worse) that one's time is initially probably spent finding the right teacher for you. Once that is done, follow your path.

ChrisHein
03-30-2011, 11:30 PM
before i begin i mean no disrespect whatsoever but I am trying to answer a question so i come here looking for and answer.Aikido is an art in which the mystery has me wondering so much so people swear its on of the ultimate arts others say its complete bullshit. I currently do judo/bjj which was the safe bet grappling arts but i cant shake this thing inside of me for aikido. so let me explain what i want and u tell me if it can do this im looking for an art with history some spirituality yet i want it to be able to defend me if i need it to so I ask can i get an answer or opinion from you guys pro's cons of aikido good art or fairy magic! thanx!

Hello Steven,

I think you've basically summarized how we all have felt about Aikido at one point or another. And the answer doesn't come easily.

First off, what do you mean by "defend yourself". Seems like it should be pretty obvious as to what you mean, but "defend yourself" can mean lots of things.

First, and what you probably mean by "defend yourself" is: will Aikido help me to overcome other young males who insult my character or physically embarrass me. I call this "bravado fighting". It happens most often when young males compete for status. Aikido isn't great in this area (in my opinion). If you are looking for great ability in this area, Kickboxing, Bjj, Judo, MMA, and Wrestling are all better choices of study; again in my opinion.

If by "defend yourself" you mean: will Aikido training help me to survive a life threatening encounter, where people are interested in killing or severely maiming me. I believe yes, Aikido is a system designed around serious physical conflict; life and death struggle.

Ron Tisdale
03-31-2011, 07:37 AM
Good post Chris. Always good to read your writing.

Best,
Ron

Don Nordin
03-31-2011, 01:06 PM
As Alex Said "You're not taught techniques in Aikido, you're taught kata and if you understand what's being taught in the kata, posture, timing, distancing, body mechanics, psychology then Aikido is a very powerful art.
If you think of it as being techniques then you end up with "But you can't catch punches" or "but that won't work against resistance."
Aikido is a very easy art to misunderstand.
Aikido can be what you want it to be, But it does appear to quite a bit of time to be proficenet in it. If you are already involved in Judo and BJJ you may be able to defend yourself better than the average person already, so you may want to think about what defense means to you. The sense of balance and timing used in Judo is similar to Aikido, I think. In my opinion you should probably start visiting Dojo's to see if it what you want.

GhostBushido
03-31-2011, 07:50 PM
ok let me explain myself im 6'0 295 of what i call fuscle fat and muscle.i have loved and done martial arts since i was a kid and i love the spiritual and cultural part and aikido has just always been an enigma to me so as im more than capable of defending myself do to alot of different style i have never acheived a high rank in a style and it is a goal and i at a point in life where im able to do that ! and this style always seem fantastic and rich in alot of things and nothign would make me more happy to be able to master(well as much as i can ) this style but i would like to know it truly works!

Ketsan
03-31-2011, 08:11 PM
As Alex Said "
Aikido can be what you want it to be.

Then Aikido is everything a human being can imagine. In fact the word "everything" and the word "Aikido" are now synonyms. BJJ is Aikido, Judo is Aikido if you want them to be, MMA is Aikido. Aikido can be a method of toilet cleaning or pie making if you want it to be.

In fact we can say that Aikido is 100% effective because I want Aikido to be whatever the winner in any fight used to beat the looser.

But it does appear to quite a bit of time to be proficenet in it.

Only because you want it to. You could want Aikido to be something you could instantly master but you choose to make it something that is hard to learn.

What I actually said was that there are a lot of people doing a lot of things under the umbrella term Aikido. I didn't say that it could be anything one wanted.

Ketsan
03-31-2011, 08:26 PM
ok let me explain myself im 6'0 295 of what i call fuscle fat and muscle.i have loved and done martial arts since i was a kid and i love the spiritual and cultural part and aikido has just always been an enigma to me so as im more than capable of defending myself do to alot of different style i have never acheived a high rank in a style and it is a goal and i at a point in life where im able to do that ! and this style always seem fantastic and rich in alot of things and nothign would make me more happy to be able to master(well as much as i can ) this style but i would like to know it truly works!

You'll get a million responses asking what you mean by "works" now. And if you ask about a "real fight" then you'll get asked a million more questions about what a real fight is.

Aikiodka and straight answers are not on speaking terms on the whole. Yes it works in self defence situations. The hard part is finding an instructor who teaches Aikido for self-defence.

John Connolly
04-01-2011, 03:14 AM
If you are 6'0 and 295, you may take any martial art you want-- even the least effective, and still be effective. Just find something you enjoy or think is fun, and have fun and do it. If Aikido is beautiful and awesome to you, then it is what's best. Frankly, I really believe Aikido will be very good for your coordination, timing, sensitivity, and flexibility, but then, so will any martial art, Good luck in your search.

lbb
04-01-2011, 09:38 AM
You'll get a million responses asking what you mean by "works" now. And if you ask about a "real fight" then you'll get asked a million more questions about what a real fight is.

They're reasonable questions. "Fight" and "self-defense" mean different things if you're a prison guard, or a football hooligan, or a brash young fella who perceives ego challenges from his fellow bar patrons once he's had a few, or a person in an abusive relationship, or a grownup who lives and works in a low-crime area and who keeps his nose clean. I'm sure that aikido has worked in all those situations; I'm also sure that it cannot always be relied on to save you from every situation. If, for example, you're someone who becomes aggressive and confrontational when you've been drinking, you shouldn't expect aikido to bail you out of those situations. It might work once, it might work twice, it might work many times, but it won't make you bulletproof. It won't work forever. It's a tool of last resort, not first resort.

Don Nordin
04-01-2011, 10:57 AM
Yes it works but it takes time to learn. You seem to have the right attitude. You will learn which teacher emphasize self defense by visiting your local Dojos.

graham christian
04-01-2011, 12:09 PM
Hi Steven.
Just read the other threads pertinent to your question and you'll see the various answers and opinions.

My answer would be this. Aikido ALWAYS works in all situations whether fight situations or life.

We learn the principles and apply them until we understand and are able to do at ease. It takes as long as it takes.

For me the problem with Aikido for everyone is this: The recognition that the aim is be confident and able enough so that when situations happen you handle them naturally with Aikido.

Most people in 'tight' situations REVERT to something else.

This applies to all martial arts too.

When is the last time you saw a practitioner of let's say praying mantis kung fu actually use that in a situation in life?

The point is only those who have reached that stage can in any art.

Regards.G.

ChrisHein
04-01-2011, 03:45 PM
You'll get a million responses asking what you mean by "works" now. And if you ask about a "real fight" then you'll get asked a million more questions about what a real fight is.

Aikiodka and straight answers are not on speaking terms on the whole.

This is a very true statement here.

If you want a specific answer, you'll have to ask a specific question. "Works" is very general, and "real" tends to be predicated on a false assumption (that there is something "not real").

The key is to understand what it is that you want to know, then form the best question you can, in order to get that answer. As you get better at asking questions, your knowledge will improve. It's not an easy path. Which is probably why there are not to many who are good at it, and we all keep asking the same vague questions over and over.

Hellis
04-01-2011, 04:38 PM
You'll get a million responses asking what you mean by "works" now. And if you ask about a "real fight" then you'll get asked a million more questions about what a real fight is.

Aikiodka and straight answers are not on speaking terms on the whole. Yes it works in self defence situations. The hard part is finding an instructor who teaches Aikido for self-defence.

Alex

That is an excellent response.

Henry Ellis
Aikido Controversy
http://aikido-controversy.blogspot.com/

Ketsan
04-03-2011, 10:48 AM
They're reasonable questions. "Fight" and "self-defense" mean different things if you're a prison guard, or a football hooligan, or a brash young fella who perceives ego challenges from his fellow bar patrons once he's had a few, or a person in an abusive relationship, or a grownup who lives and works in a low-crime area and who keeps his nose clean. I'm sure that aikido has worked in all those situations; I'm also sure that it cannot always be relied on to save you from every situation. If, for example, you're someone who becomes aggressive and confrontational when you've been drinking, you shouldn't expect aikido to bail you out of those situations. It might work once, it might work twice, it might work many times, but it won't make you bulletproof. It won't work forever. It's a tool of last resort, not first resort.

All the above situations differ only in the differ only in the minutiae. Unless you're insisting that there is a radical difference between how a single individual would fight based on if he was a prisoner, in a bar or beating his girlfriend up. If a person transistions through being in a fight in a bar, gets arrested and has a pop at a prision officer and then beats his girlfriend up when he gets out would you expect his fighting style to transition also? No.

It's a straw man argument designed so Aikidoka don't have to seriously answer questions about Aikido as a martial art. People fight in two basic ways, they throw strikes, occasionally with weapons and they wrestle.

Again another classic strawman argument shows its face "It might work x number of times but it won't always work" the same thing is true of just about everything in life but you don't give up driving in case your car doesn't start one morning.

Self-defence is fighting; the same tactics and strategies work regardless of wheather you're mugging someone or trying not to get mugged. Also in all situations the goal is the same: quickly stop the opponent fighting back by achieving dominance.

"Self-defence" is just the lable we place on socially acceptable violence.

Janet Rosen
04-03-2011, 11:33 AM
Alex, I disagree with your assertion that the skills or style needed are all the same.
First of all, Mary didn't cite a guy resisting arrest, she cited the needs of the arresting officer...A prison guard or a juvenile probation officer or a counselor in a mental health setting has a need to be able to do controls and takedowns but is not permitted to just haul off and beat the dickens out of those under his purview.
Secondly, the drunk spoiling for a brawl in a crowded bar is out to create maximum mayhem, but the typical wife abuser (or husband abuser, I imagine also) is in many scenarios out to create paralyzing fear and control, not actually send the spouse to the ER (unless we are talking about a way escalated situation such as the spouse filing for divorce or otherwise leaving). So often there is a slowness, a prolonged threat period, and a very controlled and purposeful blow.
Different goals > different intent > different use of body.

Ketsan
04-03-2011, 12:20 PM
They're reasonable questions. "Fight" and "self-defense" mean different things

Are they? If someone came to you with two black eyes and said they'd had their wallet stolen by two men would you ask "Yes but were you in a fight?" Would that be a reasonable question?

The point is quite simple: We all know what a fight is until we try and fit Aikido into a fighting, dare I say martial, context. Then mysteriously many Aikidoka suddenly have no clue. They would have us believe that they wouldn't recognise a fight if they were in one. If they see violence on TV they think "I wonder what that is, what's going on? Why is that man waving his arms and legs at that other man?" and when their friend says "that's a fight" they say "Are you sure?". Somehow if a prisioner punches a prision guard that's different to one MMA fighter punching another or a guy punching his wife.
A guy could be punching them in the face and they'd be thinking "Is this fight or is it self-defence?" if the discussions in Aikiweb are anything to go by.

So I don't think these are resonable questions; they're questions to blend with and redirect the discussion away from the question while appearing to be trying to answer the question. Reasonable questions have reasonable answers; none of these questions have answers reasonable or otherwise.

Really it's a technical question; it doesn't require deep thought. What can you do against someone trying to punch you? What can you do against someone trying to kick you? What can you do if someone grabs you and tries to wrestle you to the ground? Are you significantly more likely to avoid harm in these three situations than an untrained person?

If you've answered those four questions then you've covered the bulk of of what people want to know when they ask how good Aikido is for fighting/self-defence. If you go beyond the technical then you're missing seeing the wood for the trees. After all what do you mean by a tree? There are oaks and beech and ash, are they trees or are they wood? That's the level of discussion about what a fight is on aikiweb.

Ketsan
04-03-2011, 12:26 PM
Alex, I disagree with your assertion that the skills or style needed are all the same.
First of all, Mary didn't cite a guy resisting arrest, she cited the needs of the arresting officer...A prison guard or a juvenile probation officer or a counselor in a mental health setting has a need to be able to do controls and takedowns but is not permitted to just haul off and beat the dickens out of those under his purview.
Secondly, the drunk spoiling for a brawl in a crowded bar is out to create maximum mayhem, but the typical wife abuser (or husband abuser, I imagine also) is in many scenarios out to create paralyzing fear and control, not actually send the spouse to the ER (unless we are talking about a way escalated situation such as the spouse filing for divorce or otherwise leaving). So often there is a slowness, a prolonged threat period, and a very controlled and purposeful blow.
Different goals > different intent > different use of body.

Yes but only minior differences in the use of the body. If you're taking down someone in a professional context you're not doing too much different to someone with an intent to kill, physically speaking. The principles of pins and take downs don't differ with the intent of their use because the body doesn't change. Homo sapiends tend to be very much a like physically.

I mean I can do irimi nage in several ways: I can slam someone onto their head with massive force or I can gently take them down, but at the basic level what I'm doing is irimi nage. If you can do one you can do the rest.

JO
04-03-2011, 03:19 PM
Yes but only minior differences in the use of the body. If you're taking down someone in a professional context you're not doing too much different to someone with an intent to kill, physically speaking. The principles of pins and take downs don't differ with the intent of their use because the body doesn't change. Homo sapiends tend to be very much a like physically.

I mean I can do irimi nage in several ways: I can slam someone onto their head with massive force or I can gently take them down, but at the basic level what I'm doing is irimi nage. If you can do one you can do the rest.

There are huge differences in intent that change how you move and why. There are also huge differences in how the "attacker" will move and also in the likelihood of them being armed that change strategies greatly. In some of the scenarios mentioned that you want to group together, a devastating blow to your "opponents" head may be a good way to save your life, in another it will be seen as escalation and land you in jail. Training for the "street" means thinking about these issues and how they affect how you react and then putting this into practice. Saying it's all the same and restricting oneself to strengthening technique isn't sufficient in my opinion.

There are huge differences in mentality and tactics between self defence and fighting. If you want to know the difference, ask yourself the fairly simple question "Will this get me in jail". The police won't care much who threw the first punch. They'll care more about whether you restricted yourself to doing what was needed to stay alive (starting by trying to leave). Do you train to react proportionally to the situation and to de-escalate. Restraining someone gently is usually harder, not easier, than beating them down.

Final note. Of course an online discussion will tend to go off into minutia, all you can put on the screen are words. Working on and comparing technique, and feeling the efficacy of technique, is best done in the flesh.

lbb
04-03-2011, 04:54 PM
All the above situations differ only in the differ only in the minutiae. Unless you're insisting that there is a radical difference between how a single individual would fight based on if he was a prisoner, in a bar or beating his girlfriend up.

I could be wrong, but I tend to think there is a radical difference in these situations. It isn't all body mechanics; there's the reason why you're fighting, too. I think motive and situation have a lot to do with who you're going to be fighting, what you're going to be willing to do to them and what you're going to be willing to risk in return.

It's a straw man argument designed so Aikidoka don't have to seriously answer questions about Aikido as a martial art.

I think the correct term would be "diversion" rather than "straw man argument (a preposterous argument put forth for the simple purpose of knocking it down), but I was offering neither a diversionary argument nor a strawman argument. I was talking about a distinction that I think has substantial material consequences that are relevant to a self-defense situation.

People fight in two basic ways, they throw strikes, occasionally with weapons and they wrestle.

That's quite likely true, but I wasn't really talking about mechanics. However, if you are of the belief that it all boils down to mechanics and nothing else ultimately matters, I don't think we've got a basis for discussion, so I'll respectfully bow out.

lbb
04-03-2011, 04:56 PM
Are they? If someone came to you with two black eyes and said they'd had their wallet stolen by two men would you ask "Yes but were you in a fight?"

No, but what does that have to do with anything?

The point is quite simple: We all know what a fight is until we try and fit Aikido into a fighting, dare I say martial, context. Then mysteriously many Aikidoka suddenly have no clue.

Speak for yourself. Aikido is the fourth art I've studied, and I've been asking this same question all along.

Ketsan
04-04-2011, 05:21 AM
There are huge differences in intent that change how you move and why. There are also huge differences in how the "attacker" will move and also in the likelihood of them being armed that change strategies greatly. In some of the scenarios mentioned that you want to group together, a devastating blow to your "opponents" head may be a good way to save your life, in another it will be seen as escalation and land you in jail. Training for the "street" means thinking about these issues and how they affect how you react and then putting this into practice. Saying it's all the same and restricting oneself to strengthening technique isn't sufficient in my opinion.

There are huge differences in mentality and tactics between self defence and fighting. If you want to know the difference, ask yourself the fairly simple question "Will this get me in jail". The police won't care much who threw the first punch. They'll care more about whether you restricted yourself to doing what was needed to stay alive (starting by trying to leave). Do you train to react proportionally to the situation and to de-escalate. Restraining someone gently is usually harder, not easier, than beating them down.

Final note. Of course an online discussion will tend to go off into minutia, all you can put on the screen are words. Working on and comparing technique, and feeling the efficacy of technique, is best done in the flesh.

Care to outline the differences in tactics between self-defence and fighting then?

Ketsan
04-04-2011, 06:09 AM
I could be wrong, but I tend to think there is a radical difference in these situations. It isn't all body mechanics; there's the reason why you're fighting, too. I think motive and situation have a lot to do with who you're going to be fighting, what you're going to be willing to do to them and what you're going to be willing to risk in return.

But that has nothing to do with the effectiveness of the art. If someone asks if the art is effective "Well it depends on the reason why you're fighting" doesn't answer the question. If I made the statement that MMA was only effective if you were fighting for money and if you weren't fighting for money then none of MMA's techniques would work how seriously do you think I'd be taken?

I think the correct term would be "diversion" rather than "straw man argument (a preposterous argument put forth for the simple purpose of knocking it down), but I was offering neither a diversionary argument nor a strawman argument. I was talking about a distinction that I think has substantial material consequences that are relevant to a self-defense situation.

Maybe but not to the art you're learning.

That's quite likely true, but I wasn't really talking about mechanics. However, if you are of the belief that it all boils down to mechanics and nothing else ultimately matters, I don't think we've got a basis for discussion, so I'll respectfully bow out.

Until we're presented with an actual situation we have nothing to say other than what the mechanics allow us to do. The discussion is after all about what the art will mechanically allow one person to do to another, what you will learn in training. There is no discussion beyond that.

For instance we can say that BJJ will allow a person to take down and submit anyone who does not have superior training in BJJ. BJJ can therefore be said to work. End of discussion. Talking about all the different types of fights and why they're caused and who starts them and how you wouldn't want to respond to them in exactly the same way has zero bearing on the BJJers ability to execute a take down and stick a guy in a Kimura.
Only a discussion about the mechanics of BJJ will tell us if can actually do it in the first place which is what the question was about in the first place.

Pauliina Lievonen
04-04-2011, 07:32 AM
I think Alex has a good point!

And if we look at the OP's question in that light then:

If you you look at the mechanics of the movements and techniques then there are groups that practice aikido that I think doesn't work. That is, the techniques do not do what they are thought to do.

And there is also aikido that when you look at the mechanics does work.

And often you can find both in the same town. So it can be a good art but there's also plenty of fairy magic going around, too. :P

I thik if you have a bit of experience in other arts it's actually not that difficult to tell the two apart. So the advice of visiting several dojo is a good one.

I've trained with people who do judo, wing chu, boxing or kempo. All of them bigger and stronger than me and better fighters than me, too. If we were to fight I'm quite sure I'd lose. And still they had no problem practicing together with me and working on aikido techniques, because we were working on principles and mechanics.

Pauliina

JO
04-04-2011, 07:33 AM
Care to outline the differences in tactics between self-defence and fighting then?

I find that this site makes a better job of laying out the differences than I can. For the record I agree with nearly all of the points made.

http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/fight_selfdefense.html

Look especially to the "Training to Fight" section near the bottom of the page.

lbb
04-04-2011, 07:43 AM
But that has nothing to do with the effectiveness of the art. If someone asks if the art is effective "Well it depends on the reason why you're fighting" doesn't answer the question.

Of course it doesn't. How long is a string, Alex?

Ketsan
04-04-2011, 09:21 AM
I find that this site makes a better job of laying out the differences than I can. For the record I agree with nearly all of the points made.

http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/fight_selfdefense.html

Look especially to the "Training to Fight" section near the bottom of the page.

Excellent now tell me based on that if Aikido works in a fight.

Ketsan
04-04-2011, 09:23 AM
Of course it doesn't. How long is a string, Alex?

Right so if it doesn't answer the question why did you answer the question with it?

How have we got from "Does Aikido work in a fight" to It isn't all body mechanics; there's the reason why you're fighting, too. ?

Basia Halliop
04-04-2011, 09:37 AM
I don't really understand why the body mechanics would necessarily be the same in different kinds of altercations.

E.g. a cop trying to arrest someone has to pin them, hold them down long enough to handcuff them, and may also have to do so without punching them hard or twisting their joints hard enough to dislocate anything. They may be working in a pair or group of cops. They likely don't know whether the person is armed or not. They also need to keep the person from running away. They are fairly likely to have 'instigated' the interaction.

Someone fighting may e.g. have a goal to either pin the person or hit them hard enough to get them to go away. Or they may be looking for a verbal surrender. The other person running away would generally mean success (while for the cop it would mean failure). The degree to which it's OK or even desirable to injure the opponent might be a personal choice. There are a lot of unknowns regarding friends on either side who might show up suddenly, weapons, etc.

A woman defending herself against a larger man (we'll assume we're at the moment when he's physically attacking her and not threatening) -- her goal is to get his hands off her body long enough to give herself space to get a head start running away. If they're indoors or in a confined space she may also have to deal with attempts to block her escape route. She doesn't need to pin him, injure him, get him to run away, or prevent him from running away. Of the three scenarios she's also the most likely to have an opponent that's significantly larger and stronger than her.

Not that the situations have nothing in common or that there wouldn't be any correlation at all in a person's effectiveness in one situation vs another... But personally I think the differences are interesting and not just a matter of quibbling....

lbb
04-04-2011, 10:04 AM
Right so if it doesn't answer the question why did you answer the question with it?

Because when the question doesn't provide enough information, there can't be a good answer. It's just like asking "How long is a string?" What's wrong, Alex, why won't you answer that question? Because it can't be answered from the information given. QED.

Ketsan
04-04-2011, 10:32 AM
I don't really understand why the body mechanics would necessarily be the same in different kinds of altercations.


Well lets go back to the examples Mary used. What is the practical difference, if any, between a prisioner throwing a punch and an abusive partner throwing a punch? What is it about the actions of the attacker that make these two different kinds of altercation requiring, presumably, two different sets of training?

I'd argue that there is no difference. These are not different kinds of altercations; they're the same kind of altercation happing in two different contexts. Even the bar brawl is essentially the same as the abusive partner and the prisioner. A fight has broken out, kicks, punches and grappling are being used. That's the situation.

The OP wants to know how useful Aikido would be at dealing with these situations so what do we say?

"Well irimi nage would be useful if a guy is trying to punch you in a bar but not if your partner is trying to punch you" or "Ikkyo only works if you're a prison officer being assaulted by a prisioner."

Does this make any kind of sense? Id say no. The mechanics are the same in every situation be it a bar brawl or dealing with an abusive parter. The only thing that varies is the degree to which the techniques, the mechanics, are used to inflict harm.

Then later on after the dust is settled someone pontificates over wheather it was a fight or self defence which apparently has some bearing over whether irimi nage or ikkyo work. :confused:

Ketsan
04-04-2011, 10:40 AM
Because when the question doesn't provide enough information, there can't be a good answer. It's just like asking "How long is a string?" What's wrong, Alex, why won't you answer that question? Because it can't be answered from the information given. QED.

No a piece of string, potentially, can be any length from infinately long to a couple of molecules long. Aikido can either be judged to be reasonably reliable at taking people down in altercations or not.

Hence I have already answered that Aikido does work in a fight.

JO
04-04-2011, 11:15 AM
Excellent now tell me based on that if Aikido works in a fight.

I don't feel I can answer your question as simply as you would like, because I think such aswers are misleading. But I will break it down into questions I can answer categorically, according to my opinion of course.

Are techniques and principles from aikido applicable in a fight? YES

Is somebody better able to handle themselves in a fight after training in aikido than before? YES

Is aikido an efficient way to prepare for a fight? NO (I would look to arts where people actually fight for that)

Does aikido train people to fight? NO (Taking into account the definition of "fight" given in the link I posted, I would say that aikido is specifically about training to not fight, even in situations where others would consider fighting an appropriate response).

Diana Frese
04-04-2011, 12:17 PM
I knew it. Sooner or later I would have to describe what happened to a dojo brother of mine (consecutive numbers in the old register, I can't even remember which one of us was 393 and which was 394, I think I remember the numbers corrrectly though) So I sometimes referred to him as my twin. We did n't talk that much but there was enough of a bond for him to confess to me what happened when someone attacked him on the street and I think he wanted to know if he did the right thing.

It seems that someone attacked him and he responded with one of the regular Aikido techniques. I have no doubt it was an effective technique, you know these things if you train with people.
The guy got back up again and attacked again. Then Victor did another technique, it was so long ago I forget which one. The guy was drunk or high on something, Victor told me. So it was four Aikido techniques and the guy kept getting up again. So Victor punched him.

What was I to say? Well, Victor, you did four techniques. It was his turn to throw, so of course you were supposed to hit him.

To answer Jonathan, I guess Victor did his best to not fight, so that is why I gave him that answer. But I was only his dojo twin, didn't even know him socially or have long conversations with him, and I certainly wasn't his senpai or his teacher.

C. David Henderson
04-04-2011, 12:53 PM
Well, Victor, you did four techniques. It was his turn to throw, so of course you were supposed to hit him.


:D

JW
04-05-2011, 01:14 AM
Wow, nice story Diana!
I think in some dojos it is only 2 before you switch off, not 4.. so the guy definitely got more than his share of mercy and the chance to call off the aggression. Plus it was just a punch, not a cut throat or spine.

robin_jet_alt
06-29-2011, 07:09 PM
I don't mean to sound like a smart-alec here but to me the concept of 'aikido working in a fight' is a bit of an oxymoron. If your aikido has worked, then there isn't a fight. Conversely, if there is a fight, then your aikido hasn't worked.

lbb
06-30-2011, 07:43 AM
I don't mean to sound like a smart-alec here but to me the concept of 'aikido working in a fight' is a bit of an oxymoron. If your aikido has worked, then there isn't a fight. Conversely, if there is a fight, then your aikido hasn't worked.

So if someone gets suckered over the head as they're coming out of a bar, their aikido didn't work? What exactly did they do wrong?

Michael Hackett
06-30-2011, 10:18 AM
No it didn't work. Aikido wasn't applied as there was no fight in that example. A fight requires two or more active participants. There would have been an attack and a victim with no fight taking place. There is a similarity to the difference between a battle and a massacre.