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Daniel Lloyd
03-21-2011, 10:56 PM
Thanks Tony,

I wasn't able to get into contact with you so I created this thread to say thanks.
I did what you suggested and all is working well. I've found a Sensei that I really work well with and get lots of feedback from. The dojo itself is small but jam-packed full of experience and wisdom. Almost always I'm training with higher ranked students with a diverse training background, the training is fun/serious/intense and focuses on the details of the techniques along with variations. Overall, I feel like a true beginner again, learning something new and exciting everyday. I still practice at my original dojo, i have great friends there and I can't leave them behind.

I'm trying to keep my mind completely open and not be judgmental of this style of Aikido or that style yadda yadda and see where I get to from here. See what I learn and experience.

I hope that one day I get to visit your dojo and train with you. For now though, I'm happy to share ideas, thoughts and questions with you and just discuss Aikido.

Cheers.

Hellis
03-22-2011, 07:03 AM
Hi Daniel

I believe that Tony has been banned again, I did warn him that having a sense of humour was unacceptable. He added a funny video from British TV that was considered funny in the UK and un-funny by our colonial friends, apparently.
I am sure that he will be pleased by you message of thanks.
Thanks for letting us know how you got on.

Henry Ellis
Aikido in MMA
http://rik-ellis.blogspot.com/

Daniel Lloyd
03-22-2011, 08:06 AM
Thanks Henry Ellis,

"Aikibunnies" have no sense of humour. I thought that training in a martial art would allow one to defend/protect oneself not only from physical harm but mental/psychological as well. Especially for Aikido - turning it into a good thing and laughing about it. Clearly they haven't been training hard enough :P tehehehe.

Yes, I did receive a message from Tony. Even though he gets banned, I think fairly regularly now, it doesn't stop him from being him. Which is good, otherwise everything on here would be one sided. They shouldn't ban him though because in my opinion they're limiting themselves in a way, of knowledge, real world experience and such brutal honesty.

How are you going with your dojo and your own training? I'd love to hear about the differences/similarities in your training and techniques.

Hope you are in good health.

Cheers.
Daniel

Flintstone
03-22-2011, 08:47 AM
They shouldn't ban him though because in my opinion they're limiting themselves in a way, of knowledge, real world experience and such brutal honesty.
Sorry, Daniel. Banning is the norm here, as you should know by now ;) .

Daniel Lloyd
03-22-2011, 08:50 AM
Sorry, Daniel. Banning is the norm here, as you should know by now ;) .

Hahaha. Well if people want to limit their growth and resources, that's their choice. But they shouldn't limit it for other people - that's just selfish.

What style of Aikido do you practice Alejandro Villanueva? What's training like? :)

Marc Abrams
03-22-2011, 09:29 AM
Thanks Henry Ellis,

"Aikibunnies" have no sense of humour. I thought that training in a martial art would allow one to defend/protect oneself not only from physical harm but mental/psychological as well. Especially for Aikido - turning it into a good thing and laughing about it. Clearly they haven't been training hard enough :P tehehehe.

Yes, I did receive a message from Tony. Even though he gets banned, I think fairly regularly now, it doesn't stop him from being him. Which is good, otherwise everything on here would be one sided. They shouldn't ban him though because in my opinion they're limiting themselves in a way, of knowledge, real world experience and such brutal honesty.

How are you going with your dojo and your own training? I'd love to hear about the differences/similarities in your training and techniques.

Hope you are in good health.

Cheers.
Daniel

Daniel:

The sole decision to ban someone rests with Jun. Are you actually calling Jun an Aikibunny?

This website and forum was created by and is maintained by Jun. Jun has spelled out what he considers to be fair guidelines with which we may participate on this forum. Our participation on this forum and website has explicit and implicit obligations as to rules that we must follow. This is no different than how any other "institution" works.

I think that there does need to be a dialogue amongst the members with Jun as to how to address certain inflammatory issues that ended up getting people put in the "time-out room." I think that you trying to single out "Aikibunnies" with no humor as the reason for people being banned is significantly distorted reasoning at best. The issue that Jun frequently uses as a reason for issuing a "time-out" is the disrespectful manner in which people treat others. Couching one's contempt, dislike,.... in humor is little more than a passive-aggressive act. We all are guilty of this to some degree or another (kind of like your Aikibunny comment).

Encouraging a dialogue with Jun and the other members of the forum on how to tackle areas of dispute and disagreement is a more constructive direction that you might want to consider.

Just my 2 cents.

marc abrams

Keith Larman
03-22-2011, 09:38 AM
Sorry, Daniel. Banning is the norm here, as you should know by now ;) .

Odd, I've been here for years, posting quite a bit, and I've never been banned. I'd dare say the overwhelming majority of people who post regularly have never been banned.

sakumeikan
03-22-2011, 09:48 AM
Hi Daniel

I believe that Tony has been banned again, I did warn him that having a sense of humour was unacceptable. He added a funny video from British TV that was considered funny in the UK and un-funny by our colonial friends, apparently.
I am sure that he will be pleased by you message of thanks.
Thanks for letting us know how you got on.

Henry Ellis
Aikido in MMA
http://rik-ellis.blogspot.com/
Henry,
Whats the problem ?Tony is a character, keeps the forum from becoming boring.Whatever happened to the principle of freedom of speech?No matter what you write somebody , somewhere will take offense. You cannot please everybody all the time. Tony come back soon , all is [hopefully ] forgiven. Cheers, Joe.

lbb
03-22-2011, 09:54 AM
Wow. This thread, just...wow.

During his time back from timeout, Tony Wagstaffe indulged incessantly in a tactic that I'll call "side-biting", for lack of a better term: ostensibly speaking to one individual, but about others. It's a not very subtle attempt to disparage and insult others while waving a "get out of jail free" card: "I wasn't talking to you, was I? Oh, you thought I was talking about you? Well, I wasn't, but if you think I was, then maybe the shoe fits!" A number of others on this forum eagerly joined in Tony's play -- it wasn't very subtle, and we all know who you are. It's a sandbox level of manipulative social behavior, very successful among the younger set who aren't yet wise to these tricks, and less successful when used on grownups. I don't think Jun intends this forum to be a sandbox where the cleverest kindergarten bully will prevail. If that's bothersome to you, then perhaps it's time to do some growing up.

Nicholas Eschenbruch
03-22-2011, 10:10 AM
Wow. This thread, just...wow.

During his time back from timeout, Tony Wagstaffe indulged incessantly in a tactic that I'll call "side-biting", for lack of a better term: ostensibly speaking to one individual, but about others. It's a not very subtle attempt to disparage and insult others while waving a "get out of jail free" card: "I wasn't talking to you, was I? Oh, you thought I was talking about you? Well, I wasn't, but if you think I was, then maybe the shoe fits!" A number of others on this forum eagerly joined in Tony's play -- it wasn't very subtle, and we all know who you are. It's a sandbox level of manipulative social behavior, very successful among the younger set who aren't yet wise to these tricks, and less successful when used on grownups. I don't think Jun intends this forum to be a sandbox where the cleverest kindergarten bully will prevail. If that's bothersome to you, then perhaps it's time to do some growing up.

Agree.

( - and cancelled long rant - )

Janet Rosen
03-22-2011, 10:15 AM
I've never been banned.

I speak my mind here, crack jokes, even go a bit off topic with pun wars at times.... but I always try to remain respectful in my tone and critique ideas rather than criticise individuals; to me THAT is the training, just as there are norms in the dojo to strive to maintain.

Gorgeous George
03-22-2011, 11:10 AM
Well said, Mary.

I don't think he was banned because he had a sense of humour; rather, because he was what is known as a troll:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_%28Internet%29

He just harped on about the same things, to the same people, in the same way - endlessly; at first, it might be novel, but it quickly becomes incredibly boring and tiresome. And it goes absolutely nowhere.

And his criticisms of others' aikido/videos of their aikido were bewildering, and incredibly uncouth, in many cases; has anyone seen the video of his akido?
If I saw someone (a fourth dan) doing that (catching a shomen strike from a jo in the palm of his hand), there's no way i'd want to train under him.
I wouldn't say anything about his aikido - I believe if we're honestly trying, then we shouldn't be criticised in the slightest - but his constant 'holier-than-thou' attitude about others' surely legitimise the spotlight being turned on his aikido, and asking what right he has to judge.

kewms
03-22-2011, 11:20 AM
Henry,
Whats the problem ?Tony is a character, keeps the forum from becoming boring.Whatever happened to the principle of freedom of speech?No matter what you write somebody , somewhere will take offense. You cannot please everybody all the time. Tony come back soon , all is [hopefully ] forgiven. Cheers, Joe.

Unmoderated internet forums tend to become unreadable very quickly. Please name another social environment in which you can say anything you like, in whatever manner you like, without fear of social repercussions.

FWIW, I've been participating in Internet fora since before most people knew the Internet existed and I've never been banned anywhere.

Katherine

mathewjgano
03-22-2011, 12:01 PM
Hear hear Marc!
I've never been banned and I'm drawn to these personality conflicts like a Tough Guy to bravado. I don't get the sense Tony is malicious and chalk it up to (mostly) different strokes for different folks, but maybe I've been desensitized to his kind of humor. Whatever the case, this is Jun's web site and he's asked that people try to keep away from behavior that appears mean-spirited (or what have you). Where they seem unable to do that (after reminders) he should give them a time-out. Perhaps it's not a perfect system, but show me one that is.
I agree with the idea that it's good to keep a variety of view points present, but it's not that hard to express an idea without using humor you already know to be perceived negatively. His tone is disrespectful by a lot of people's standards. He probably doesn't care much, but that doesn't exactly inspire another to care much in his regard either so no wonder he gets the static he does.
I do find it ironic he inspired someone to be less judgemental about this style of Aikido or that, but that's the beauty of open dialogue.
FWLIW,
Matt
p.s. love the pic!:D
p.p.s. nicely put Katherine

Alex Megann
03-22-2011, 12:01 PM
Well said, Mary.

I don't think he was banned because he had a sense of humour; rather, because he was what is known as a troll:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_%28Internet%29

He just harped on about the same things, to the same people, in the same way - endlessly; at first, it might be novel, but it quickly becomes incredibly boring and tiresome. And it goes absolutely nowhere.

And his criticisms of others' aikido/videos of their aikido were bewildering, and incredibly uncouth, in many cases; has anyone seen the video of his akido?
If I saw someone (a fourth dan) doing that (catching a shomen strike from a jo in the palm of his hand), there's no way i'd want to train under him.
I wouldn't say anything about his aikido - I believe if we're honestly trying, then we shouldn't be criticised in the slightest - but his constant 'holier-than-thou' attitude about others' surely legitimise the spotlight being turned on his aikido, and asking what right he has to judge.

Tony has a strongly-felt point of view on many things, which is fair enough. I agree with him on some of these; some on Aikiweb agree with many more, some with hardly any. The problem is that when he has hooked into a thread he expresses his opinions at every opportunity, even when they are not particularly relevant to the thread, and often in a facetious and highly disrespectful manner.

When I talk about respect, I mean respect both for other people's viewpoints and respect for the forum. The point is that you can't behave in the same way when you are on a discussion forum that includes thousands of people of all ages and from all cultures, as you can when you are talking with your mates in the pub.

I am one of the very small number on Aikiweb who has actually been on the mat with Tony, even though it was more than twenty years ago, and I certainly didn't find his manner in person objectionable. All the same, some behaviour is just unacceptable on an internet forum.

Alex

C. David Henderson
03-22-2011, 12:05 PM
Just a guess, but I'd venture that anyone here who was susceptible into being shamed around to Tony's point of view has already queued up in that line. So maybe its time to give it a rest.

"Brutal honesty" absent self-reflection isn't.

And humor, as I understand it, is supposed to involve a shift of wit. Consequently, done well, its relatively odorless.

Keith Larman
03-22-2011, 12:20 PM
Alejandro Villanueva wrote:
Sorry, Daniel. Banning is the norm here, as you should know by now .

Alejandro, just to be forthcoming with you, your post is a pretty good example of taking an off-handed swipe. At Jun in particular. I've had the honor (and fantastic frustration) of having moderated a martial arts board for a number of years (which I do no longer). It is generally a "no-win" situation for the admin. If you have issues I would suggest addressing that openly and publicly. Or else let it go.

On the board I used to moderate I would often use the metaphor of a dojo to explain the etiquette. Wipe your feet before entering. Bow at the door. Read the rules. If it's not going to be workable for you, bow at the door again and go the other way. Honestly, there are a lot of great forums on-line. And one can always start their own should they want to have a different vibe (maybe that would be a good avenue for Tony -- and I'm not being facetious).

I've never been banned.

I speak my mind here, crack jokes, even go a bit off topic with pun wars at times.... but I always try to remain respectful in my tone and critique ideas rather than criticise individuals; to me THAT is the training, just as there are norms in the dojo to strive to maintain.

Ditto, and I've engaged in some rather heated discussions at times. But in the end the point is "discussion". And I always try to keep in mind that when I'm here I'm in Jun's "house". So I try to give my host the respect he deserves. If I'm not happy I'm free to walk out the door. But in his house I'll try to be respectful of my host's requests.

WRT to the notion of free speech. Sure. All for it. I had the great honor of being dragged away by policemen during a protest during my college days (which they were entitled to do, by the way, it was civil disobedience and I knew there would be repercussions to my behavior -= my college had heavy investments in Aparteid era South Africa). Scream what you want from the street corners and the mountain tops. Scream it as loud as you wish in your own home. But come into my living room and you'll need to be respectful of my rules in my house. You may go out to the public street and scream all you wish, but once you step on my doorstep I get to make the rules...

Seems reasonable to me...

mathewjgano
03-22-2011, 12:29 PM
Very reasonable. Nicely put.

Gorgeous George
03-22-2011, 12:35 PM
Yes: I think it's important to remember that this website is not something Jun has to maintain; he chose to create it, and we should be grateful of that fact, rather than act as though we have a God-given right to use/abuse it, and he should like or lump our behaviour.

George S. Ledyard
03-22-2011, 01:35 PM
I think it is interesting that so many of our friends from the UK didn't see Tony as objectionable... maybe there really was a cultural disconnect going on. Certainly, things he seemed to think were funny, I perceived simply as being disdainful and disrespectful...

A lot of folks out here in the West Coast of the US find the folks from New York City and the North East urban areas to be quite obnoxious whereas, being from the East Coast myself, I find them to be refreshingly straight forward when compared to the passive aggressive paradigm that seems to dominate around my own NW area. Maybe it's the same thing.

From my own perspective, there's a big difference between being sure of yourself and what you believe and crossing the line to being disrespectful of others. I sincerely doubt whether many folks are unclear about where I stand on any particular issue. I am happy to argue the point too, if the occasion arises. But I don't simply drift from thread to thread looking for opportunities to restate my belief that most everyone else is screwed up. Tony seemed to be doing that. He'd appear pretty much in any forum, even those he had nothing positive to contribute to, only to interject his belief that the whole discussion indicated that everyone's Aikido was substandard from a martial point of view.

It was unclear to me why he participated in the forums... he certainly wasn't interested in getting any new points of view or hearing about other folks experiences when it was outside his own experiential paradigm. This was true even when the folks posting were very experienced practitioners. He didn't seem to be just unthoughtful about Aikido, he seemed to me to be anti-thoughtful. Anyone who was actively in the process of change, of reevaluating their practice was derided and dismissed.

The forums are all about our collective Aikido "conversation". There's nothing wrong with having ones own strong opinions, I certainly do, and I am happy to argue them out. But even a good argument requires that one hears the point of view of the other. Tony seemed like the kid who covers his ears and chants "blah, blah, blah, I can't hear you..."

I am quite aware that at times I have crossed the line and gotten too forceful in an argument. In those cases in which I did so, I have always attempted to apologize for crossing that line. There are several people on the forums whom I have offended and am now good "friends" with in an internet sense.

Marc Abrams and I had a discussion last weekend about what the whole point is of all our practice. I am almost sixty now, and the time I have left is far less than the time I have in already so I am drawn to think about where I want to be at the end of the process. In a paraphrase of the old "The guy who wins is the guy who dies with the most toys", for me, the one who wins is the one who dies with the most friends".

If our Aikido isn't about bringing folks together, what is the point. Is the point to be able to defeat all enemies in a fight? Was that what this whole thing was about? Is participation on the forums about being "right"? I certainly have strong views on the state of Aikido and how we should be working to make it better. I think every one of us should be "fighting the good fight" so to speak, according to our beliefs. But in the end if the debates only serve to drive folks apart rather than to create some level of mutual understanding and respect, then it's just a waste.

I have seen very few people get banned from this forum over the years. You really have to cross the line to where your participation is actively causing folks to decide not to even read the posts. Despite the fact that there is an "ignore" button, most folks simply drift away when the level of discourse reaches a sort of continuous vituperation. When the message is simply a constant "I have no respect for you or your ideas", most folks simply stop participating and the ones who stay end up in the perpetual pissing match with the individual concerned. What is the point of being that person?

Certainly Jun, who created this forum and whose job it is to maximize participation has every right to step in and remove people whose participation is driving away other readers and posters. Stan Pranin at Aikido Journal was reluctant (understandably) to be the policeman on the forums there with the result that a very small number of individuals drove away all the really serious posters with the eventual result that the non-posting readers moved away due to lack of content. It killed the AJ forums.

This art is supposed to be Budo. Respect and etiquette are both central principles which operate in traditional notions of Budo. Jun continuously finds himself needing to intervene as policeman on the forums because some folks can't seem to figure out how to converse, even disagree, while still being respectful or at the very least, civil. This is not surprising since any number of people have commented on the lack of civility in our public discourse. But we are Aikido practitioners and ostensibly are striving for something better. I am always amazed how many folks who wish to be "tough guys" and who make such a big deal about the martial side of the practice, seem almost completely unaware of the need for civil behavior in a warrior society.

Anyway, it's too bad Tony is gone again... I really wanted him to see the bunny picture.

crbateman
03-22-2011, 02:18 PM
I have to agree with George on this one. There are enough divisive and polarizing things in this world... an Aikido forum does not need to go there.

I have no rant here, but the fact is that this forum is not a democracy. It belongs to Jun. It's his responsibility to set the rules, and decide who may have broken them. Frankly, I think he's done a helluva job. I think he lets everybody have a say, while trying to pin down that fine line where dialogue becomes counterproductive and people become mean and disrespectful to each other.

One can air his grievances and tout his politics and motivations without resorting to personal attacks, veiled or otherwise. Those who are given to excursions "to the edge" of that line surely must know that there is a risk.

That said, I enjoy listening to those with unconventional takes, as I often can learn much from them, even if I may not necessarily agree.. And I can simply chose to ignore those things which do not benefit me.

Relax. Breathe. Think. Think some more.

Graham Farquhar
03-22-2011, 02:37 PM
I think it is interesting that so many of our friends from the UK didn't see Tony as objectionable... maybe there really was a cultural disconnect going on. Certainly, things he seemed to think were funny, I perceived simply as being disdainful and disrespectful...

Hi George

Sorry not all of us are in that boat, I found some of the comments made equally objectionable. Ok I travel a lot and have a job that takes me to a lot of places around the world and perhaps that gives me a different perspective but I think not! I think those in the UK who don't agree with some of the comments made simply ignore them and do what I have done and left the thread as it took a direction which wasn't aiki and therefore of no interest.

On everything else George I am in 100% agreement and if My job evertakes me to the Seattle area I would love to drop in and take away some more of that vast knowledge you willingly share! Thats of course if you will let me! ;)

Daniel Lloyd
03-22-2011, 11:43 PM
Thank you all for your input! :) It's wonderful to hear so many diverse points of view. I should have put in my previous comment that this shouldn't have been taken to heart. I'm not looking for trouble, I was merely curious. As I have been told - I have to be careful with what and how I say things.

I'd love to hear all about everyone else's styles of Aikido, practice methods and the such. I'm not much of a spiritual person, but that's just me, because I'm mainly interested in the technicalities of Aikido. But I'll leave that for another thread. Thank you once again.

Alex Megann
03-23-2011, 04:27 AM
I think it is interesting that so many of our friends from the UK didn't see Tony as objectionable... maybe there really was a cultural disconnect going on. Certainly, things he seemed to think were funny, I perceived simply as being disdainful and disrespectful...

...Anyway, it's too bad Tony is gone again... I really wanted him to see the bunny picture.

My guess is that being banned doesn't stop anyone reading the forums (and I thought the bunny picture was hilarious, unlike much of Tony's humour).

I agree with much of George's post, particularly with what he says about "civility" on internet forums - that is pretty much what I was trying to say in my post. Quite apart from the fact that this is an aikido forum, I suspect that some people are misled by the chatty and informal nature of much of what is often posted here into believing that they are indeed in a cosy pub with a drink and some old friends. The internet is a funny old place - the fact that is so trivially easy to contribute. one way or another, makes it easy to forget that what one writes can be read by thousands (if not millions) and then stays there almost permanently.

The same goes for "humour" - many of the participants in AikiWeb don't have English as a first (or even second) language, and what might be intended to be a cheeky offhand remark is easily misinterpreted.

I would like to echo what others have said already in this post about Jun and AikiWeb: he does an amazing job that is far too often underappreciated.

Alex

Demetrio Cereijo
03-23-2011, 04:57 AM
Tony lacks strategic sense so he has defeated himself. Internet is serious business.

Anyway, there are way worse posters around, but as long as they "behave" we have to tolerate them. Form is more important than content... like in aikido.

john.burn
03-23-2011, 06:09 AM
Hi George

Sorry not all of us are in that boat, I found some of the comments made equally objectionable. Ok I travel a lot and have a job that takes me to a lot of places around the world and perhaps that gives me a different perspective but I think not! I think those in the UK who don't agree with some of the comments made simply ignore them and do what I have done and left the thread as it took a direction which wasn't aiki and therefore of no interest.

On everything else George I am in 100% agreement and if My job evertakes me to the Seattle area I would love to drop in and take away some more of that vast knowledge you willingly share! Thats of course if you will let me! ;)

Completely agree too! I'm from the UK, but didn't grow up here... The guy is nothing but a troll, sadly I took the bait. Not the first time, won't be the last time. Hopefully he's gone for a good while.

lbb
03-23-2011, 07:34 AM
Thank you all for your input! :) It's wonderful to hear so many diverse points of view. I should have put in my previous comment that this shouldn't have been taken to heart.
Hi Daniel,

I am not sure that's a reasonable expectation to have, in Aikiweb, any electronic format, or in face-to-face communications either, for that matter. When you know someone well and they know you well, you might be able to say something negative about their character and then tack on a "Just kidding!" and it will all be laughed off IF they know well and IF your "just kidding" is credible (it won't be if they know you well enough to know that you really meant it and are just trying to dodge the consequences of having said it). It definitely doesn't work when you're talking to strangers or slight acquaintances. That's reality, and it's not a new reality either -- it's always been this way. The internet gives us the ability to presume on short acquaintance in a much more far-reaching way, but it really doesn't make the behavior any more well-received.

Daniel Lloyd
03-23-2011, 08:15 AM
Mary Malmros,

There was actually a sentence before the "taken to heart". I can't remember it now but I deleted it and forgot to adjust that sentence. It's not a "just kidding" comment. I was going for an apology - but seeing as how it was misinterpreted I have to correct that mistake. Bluntly put - Sorry. And let that be the end of that.

C. David Henderson
03-23-2011, 10:25 AM
Daniel,

Your willingness to offer an apology shows that you share one of Tony's better traits, as he too, when he perceives the need, has the character to say he's sorry.

Frankly, I'm sorry this discussion has taken place in his enforced absence, as it feels more than a bit unfair.

I'm glad that Tony's advice helped you.

Take care.

David

lbb
03-23-2011, 11:25 AM
Frankly, I'm sorry this discussion has taken place in his enforced absence, as it feels more than a bit unfair.

I understand what you're saying, but it's hard to see how it would have been possible to have this discussion before the time-out.

ninjaqutie
03-23-2011, 11:32 AM
Sorry to interject, as I don't have too much to say on this that hasn't been said already, but.... I am confused about one thing. What bunny picture is so funny? Help me.... I'm lost. HAHA!

Hellis
03-23-2011, 12:34 PM
Henry,
Whats the problem ?Tony is a character, keeps the forum from becoming boring.Whatever happened to the principle of freedom of speech?No matter what you write somebody , somewhere will take offense. You cannot please everybody all the time. Tony come back soon , all is [hopefully ] forgiven. Cheers, Joe.

Joe

Daniel places a message of thanks to Tony for some sound advice that Tony offered him, It is gratifying when anyones efforts are appreciated. I am totally amazed at the extent of the wolf pack mentality that followed his initial post. I don't condone everything that Tony had to say, It did not offend me either.
If I don't approve of a thread or its poster, I simply ignore them both.
I certainly would not slag someone when they are down.

I receive many good and interesting emails from around the world, to which I always reply...on the other hand I also get hate mail, just in the last week I have received two. I received one which stated
" I hope you catch Dick Cancer " ...............To be honest Joe, I don't know Dick Cancer, If anyone knows Dick ? please tell him I am not even looking for him......:straightf

These messages are from gutless cowards who in my 55 yrs of Martial Arts not one of them has ever confronted me. I know they never will, for that reason I don't give a pony or try to trace there origins......

Henry Ellis
Akido Articles
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/

C. David Henderson
03-23-2011, 12:40 PM
Hi Mary,

In a sense it has happened in threads where Tony participated, but a number of folks held their tongues, apparently. (Sounds painful.)

Ashley -- look at the "is your aikido up to snuff" thread, you'll see the redoubtable bunny photo.

Regards,

SeiserL
03-23-2011, 01:32 PM
When I visit someone's dojo for a seminar, I am respectful of their correct etiquette.

Why should this be any different?

sakumeikan
03-23-2011, 02:22 PM
Daniel:

The sole decision to ban someone rests with Jun. Are you actually calling Jun an Aikibunny?

This website and forum was created by and is maintained by Jun. Jun has spelled out what he considers to be fair guidelines with which we may participate on this forum. Our participation on this forum and website has explicit and implicit obligations as to rules that we must follow. This is no different than how any other "institution" works.

I think that there does need to be a dialogue amongst the members with Jun as to how to address certain inflammatory issues that ended up getting people put in the "time-out room." I think that you trying to single out "Aikibunnies" with no humor as the reason for people being banned is significantly distorted reasoning at best. The issue that Jun frequently uses as a reason for issuing a "time-out" is the disrespectful manner in which people treat others. Couching one's contempt, dislike,.... in humor is little more than a passive-aggressive act. We all are guilty of this to some degree or another (kind of like your Aikibunny comment).

Encouraging a dialogue with Jun and the other members of the forum on how to tackle areas of dispute and disagreement is a more constructive direction that you might want to consider.

Just my 2 cents.

marc abrams
Marc,
Remember the phrase many a true word spoken in jest?By the way what is a passive -aggressive act? Jun -an Aikibunny? If anyone felt he was /wasnt I would expect them to say so. Were you trying to elicit a response by asking that question?
Joe.

mathewjgano
03-23-2011, 03:17 PM
Frankly, I'm sorry this discussion has taken place in his enforced absence, as it feels more than a bit unfair.


I might be mistaken in this thinking, but I don't get the impression Tony is the type to be bothered by others talking about him openly in this way. He strikes me as having some very thick skin. For that reason I have no problem discussing this stuff.
Also, he speaks his mind and I believe that invites others to do the same...as it fits within the standards of Aikiweb, of course.
I think this is an important topic because I think it typifies some common issues we deal with here on Aikiweb. Hopefully it will cause folks to practice some metacognitive evaluation for how they want to interact with folks in the future.
I'm happy to see this thread in the feedback section. The more we're all on the same page, the better...Of course that assumes people will adjust their behavior accordingly.

I am totally amazed at the extent of the wolf pack mentality that followed his initial post.
The Neurotic Great Ape is a pack animal.:straightf

C. David Henderson
03-23-2011, 03:36 PM
I might be mistaken in this thinking, but I don't get the impression Tony is the type to be bothered by others talking about him openly in this way. He strikes me as having some very thick skin. For that reason I have no problem discussing this stuff.

Hi Matt,

I understand your perspective.

For me, though, its not about whether Tony would have -- or express -- hurt feelings. For me, its about my own standards more than someone else's -- hypothetical -- reaction.

It seems inherently unfair to have a thread with "feedback," much of it negative, about someone who's not able to say anything for themselves.

If that doesn't bother Tony -- ok. If it does, well, you're right I think, that he's plenty tough enough to handle it.

Either way, it still bothers me.

A thread like this could have been started by anyone -- myself included -- who has been bothered by some of the things people are mentioning. It didn't require Tony to get banned first, or for someone to coincidentally start a thread with his name attached to it, or to even be specifically directed at him.

This would be my feedback.

Best

Demetrio Cereijo
03-23-2011, 03:49 PM
A thread like this could have been started by anyone -- myself included -- who has been bothered by some of the things people are mentioning. It didn't require Tony to get banned first, or for someone to coincidentally start a thread with his name attached to it, or to even be specifically directed at him.

This is how we aikidoka are.

Michael Hackett
03-23-2011, 03:52 PM
Well, if Jun is an AikiBunny, I wanna be one too! I got to train with him several years ago at the Aiki Expo and he throws hard and fast and he ain't giving you a thing unless you can't figure out the technique and then he's patient and generous with his help.

dps
03-23-2011, 04:14 PM
In general I like Tony's posts.

He is real. Nothing insecure about him.

He does not need long winded posts to express his thoughts and opinions and does not hide behind pseudo spirituality.

His Aikido is based on training and his use of that training in real life.

He walks his talk no apologies and in my opinion is closer to O'sensei's walk than his detractors.

dps

mathewjgano
03-23-2011, 04:31 PM
Hi David,
Thank you for the response. Normally I'd be inclined to feel the same way.
In the sense that he can't be here right now to reply directly, I agree it's not fair. I'm guessing Jun moved the thread here because the way the topic shifted toward the issue of banning people for how they carry themselves. People also spoke up on behalf of Jun's action. They did so by supporting Jun and/or by putting down Tony's behavior. While there seems to be some trends in thought, I think it's clear we as a group disagree on the nature of the behavior as well as the response. It became topical and I guess it's very easy to offer comments on folks who are so free with their own...I suspect a certain degree of catharsis involved too.
I like Tony. I hope he'll keep posting...and I hope I'm not overstepping my bounds by commenting as freely as I suspect he would.
Sincerely,
Matt

C. David Henderson
03-23-2011, 04:42 PM
I suspect a certain degree of catharsis involved too.


Yeah, I think it was like waiving a red flag before an enraged ... rabbit?

dps
03-23-2011, 04:53 PM
Yeah, I think it was like waiving a red flag before an enraged ... rabbit?

I think an orange flag would work better.

dps

Marc Abrams
03-23-2011, 05:23 PM
My 2 cents leads me to believe that Jun placed this thread here because he was gently trying to get us to give feedback to one another in regards to the difficult communication area of disagreements.

Without face-to-face interactions, assessing intention, humor, anger, etc, becomes very difficult at best. We get put in the time out room by Jun for direct expressions of negativity in regards to disagreements. People then tend to stray toward being passive-aggressive so that the "punch" can be slipped in with seemingly "within-the-bounds" comments. Neither of these approaches seem to be particularly useful to threads in the long-term. Jun certainly has better things to do than to be our internet policeman. What would people recommend as civil guidelines so that we can agree to disagree without being personally insulting?

Marc Abrams

C. David Henderson
03-23-2011, 05:42 PM
Hi Marc,

Great question.

I'll start with the obvious -- rei. We practice respect. We fake it till we make it. But we aim to make it.

I'll add -- irimi.

It's something I believe you just did.

Best

Janet Rosen
03-23-2011, 06:45 PM
What would people recommend as civil guidelines so that we can agree to disagree without being personally insulting?

Engage brain before hitting send.
Seriously.
I work at my tone as well as my words - that's sort of what I mean when I say that here online THAT is the training.

The more I am irritated by a post or the more strong my opinion is on something, the more I take the time to re-read my post and edit before posting. My goals when doing this are:
remove ad hominen references, trying to focus on the post and not the poster;
reconsider anything I've written that may be based on imputing motives to the poster, since I firmly believe that even IRL ascribing motives is difficult and here on the net it can be impossible - instead I try to address the actual words/content;
chose neutral language to decrease the chances another person will ascribe motives or issues to me that I do not intend to present;
try to state my understanding of the facts or explain my opinion as clearly and simply as possible;
decide if a given issue is worth speaking up on or if it is just beating a dead horse.

I want to make it clear I am not demonizing any individuals. I have at times over the years on aikiweb tried to point out how certain patterns of communication have the effect of chilling conversation or just ending conversation. Whether a given person is doing it on purpose to that end or it just happens to be a byproduct of someone having a different attitude toward netiquette than I have is an area I wouldn't venture into since that would be ascribing motives.

sakumeikan
03-23-2011, 07:02 PM
In general I like Tony's posts.

He is real. Nothing insecure about him.

He does not need long winded posts to express his thoughts and opinions and does not hide behind pseudo spirituality.

His Aikido is based on training and his use of that training in real life.

He walks his talk no apologies and in my opinion is closer to O'sensei's walk than his detractors.

dps
Hi David,
I liked the bit above about Tony not hiding behind pseudo spirituality.
He states his opinions [good or bad] in an honest manner.Personally I find such candour refreshing .Makes a change from some of the spiritual /philosophical /theoretical/Gene Kelly style Aikido blogs usually posted here.Cheers, Joe

mathewjgano
03-23-2011, 07:28 PM
My 2 cents leads me to believe that Jun placed this thread here because he was gently trying to get us to give feedback to one another in regards to the difficult communication area of disagreements.

Without face-to-face interactions, assessing intention, humor, anger, etc, becomes very difficult at best. We get put in the time out room by Jun for direct expressions of negativity in regards to disagreements. People then tend to stray toward being passive-aggressive so that the "punch" can be slipped in with seemingly "within-the-bounds" comments. Neither of these approaches seem to be particularly useful to threads in the long-term. Jun certainly has better things to do than to be our internet policeman. What would people recommend as civil guidelines so that we can agree to disagree without being personally insulting?

Marc Abrams
I think you may have said it in your question: "agree to disagree without being personally insulting."
R-e-s-p-e-c-t.
I think the civil guidelines seem fairly well-defined: Don't be insulting. I think this means people with a more ascerbic sense of humor will probably have to curb that humor to some degree. The question is to what degree; where is the line drawn? Is it possible to pin one down or is it always going to be a fuzzy line? I think it will always be a fuzzy line...a tough one to regulate online, too, but I think the responses to this thread give some good indicators.
Coincidentally, I still come here to practice reading and writing about "Aikido and things" largely because it IS so well maintained and, almost without exception, the people so friendly.
Take care,
Matt

p.s. I really like what Janet had to say on how to approach posting!

lbb
03-24-2011, 07:49 AM
On the subject of refreshing candor:

Once upon a time there was a man named John S. During his tenure as president of a large university, he accomplished many goals, bringing his university into greater prominence and helping to secure its financial future. He also displayed a marked tendency towards high-handed, autocratic behavior, even on trivial matters on which a few material concessions would have done him no harm, let alone a concession towards civility.

After some years in this position, he decided to run for governor of his state. He had no prior experience in politics, which is considered no great barrier these days as long as you have enough money, but in those days it was considered de rigeur to pay at least a few token dues before aspiring to high office...so, eyebrows were raised. They were further raised as the general public got a real taste of what Mr. S. had been dishing out to members of the university community for some years. He had a tendency to let fly with whatever he felt like saying, and many people's reaction was to say, "This guy is a total jackass."

Then came the apologists -- the "refreshing candor" enthusiasts. I like the guy, they said. He speaks his mind. He speaks the truth as he says it, unpadded and unvarnished. And that's a good thing! This guy is honest, and I like that! Yay honesty!

At the point where it seemed like the refreshing candor crowd might prevail, a newspaper columnist pointed out the obvious. Sure, he's honest, she said. So is my four-year-old. Just like Mr. S., my four-year-old is apt to let fly with whatever she's thinking. It's unpadded and unvarnished, and it's also unconsidered. It's not thought out. And, because she's a four-year-old, I know it for what it is. When my four-year-old screeches out her opinion of my parenting style, I don't beam and say, "Oh, that's just great! What refreshing candor!" Instead, I buckle down and work to teach this child some tact.

Candor and sincerity lose their virtue when they're used as a bludgeon in the service of incivility. Four-year-olds are expected to be lacking in self-restraint. Adults must do better.

Flintstone
03-24-2011, 07:52 AM
Odd, I've been here for years, posting quite a bit, and I've never been banned. I'd dare say the overwhelming majority of people who post regularly have never been banned.
Well, Keith. I've been banned more than a couple of times, so I bet we compensate for each other ;) .

Flintstone
03-24-2011, 07:56 AM
Alejandro, just to be forthcoming with you, your post is a pretty good example of taking an off-handed swipe. At Jun in particular. I've had the honor (and fantastic frustration) of having moderated a martial arts board for a number of years (which I do no longer). It is generally a "no-win" situation for the admin. If you have issues I would suggest addressing that openly and publicly. Or else let it go.
Been there, done that. No results.

Flintstone
03-24-2011, 08:02 AM
The guy is nothing but a troll, sadly I took the bait.
Well, I do find this post objectionable and defamatory. But again I'm not the moderator here. For the records, I also moderated a forum some time ago, I know the business.

George S. Ledyard
03-24-2011, 09:56 AM
To Henry... I certainly wouldn't want to give the impression of "piling on" Tony when he isn't here to participate. I was actually disappointed I couldn't get his reaction to the bunny picture...

But the "wolf pack" mentality shouldn't be a surprise. Tony managed to offend a lot of people. That's why he's banned... again. The fact that many folks here did not get offended by his method of discourse doesn't negate the fact that many were. I think there's a not so subtle inference in many of the pro-Tony supporting posts that the folks who were offended were somehow unreasonable in being so.

People get to have their own reactions. I don't think that, in general, it's reasonable to tell folks they shouldn't respond to something a certain way just because one doesn't have that same reaction oneself.

The lack of civility in contemporary culture has been oft commented on. Folks from a younger generation than mine have coined a term, "keeping it real". My own observation is that more times than not when someone says, "I was just keeping it real" they were simply being rude. In a culture in which lack of civility or rudeness is something of the norm, it isn't surprising that many folks have simply gotten used to it. The fact that some folks have become less sensitive to these things doesn't mean it's not still rude.

In a world of political correctness, it is often refreshing to hear someone just say what they think. I don't have a problem with that as long as they stay with those opinions without personalizing them. It's one thing to say that one believes that a technique won't work or that a method of training isn't good martial arts. That's an opinion and can be argued out. It's another when one starts inferring or even outright stating that someone is somehow less as a person because of his or her way of training or method of doing technique.

There are people on this forum who represent the entire range of opinion as to what Aikido is and why we do it. I am the first one to argue out what I think about that. I'll say when something appears to me to be bad budo, I'll state when someone's take on the art seems less thoughtful than what I think it could be. But the discussion should be about the Aikido. And the discussion should be done in the spirit that, once I have had my say, other folks still get to have very different opinions about the subject. Once I have had my say in a discussion, I usually just stand back... the folks who were persuaded have been so, and the folks who weren't won't be by my hammering them and demeaning them.

As folks have already stated, the vest majority of people manage to post on the forums without getting banned. It is a rarity that this happens. I know for a fact, because so many have told me, that far more people leave the forums and do not participate at all because of the tone these discussions often take. So I would say that, if anything Jun is rather tolerant. He allows quite a range of discussion, even argument, before he steps in.

thisisnotreal
03-24-2011, 10:28 AM
On the subject of refreshing candor:
Adults must do better.
Mary,
One of my favorite points about my least favorite things is the way I see my betters react to them. You have a gift, and the best I can say it is in your ability and will to "say a word fitly spoken".
Cheers,

Hellis
03-24-2011, 11:44 AM
George

What I don't understand is if Tony Wagstaffe is so objectionable to so many people, why do they flock to his threads ? ..If I was offended, I would as I have already said " Ignore Tony and his threads " ...The thread " Is Your Aikido up to Reality ? " which has in the region of 14,000 impressions and 344 messages, so when I see Tony referred to as a troll, forgive the wry smile.

Daniel Loydd a ``newbie `` leaves a message of thanks to Tony, people have also flocked to this also with 2000 impressions in a few days...Not to add thanks to Tony, but to take the opportunity to have another dig at a man who is not here to defend himself....

Henry Ellis
Aikido Controversy
http://aikido-controversy.blogspot.com/

Gorgeous George
03-24-2011, 11:52 AM
If I don't approve of a thread or its poster, I simply ignore them both.
I certainly would not slag someone when they are down.

Perhaps you should give this advice to Tony?

Gorgeous George
03-24-2011, 11:54 AM
On the subject of refreshing candor:

Once upon a time there was a man named John S. During his tenure as president of a large university, he accomplished many goals, bringing his university into greater prominence and helping to secure its financial future. He also displayed a marked tendency towards high-handed, autocratic behavior, even on trivial matters on which a few material concessions would have done him no harm, let alone a concession towards civility.

After some years in this position, he decided to run for governor of his state. He had no prior experience in politics, which is considered no great barrier these days as long as you have enough money, but in those days it was considered de rigeur to pay at least a few token dues before aspiring to high office...so, eyebrows were raised. They were further raised as the general public got a real taste of what Mr. S. had been dishing out to members of the university community for some years. He had a tendency to let fly with whatever he felt like saying, and many people's reaction was to say, "This guy is a total jackass."

Then came the apologists -- the "refreshing candor" enthusiasts. I like the guy, they said. He speaks his mind. He speaks the truth as he says it, unpadded and unvarnished. And that's a good thing! This guy is honest, and I like that! Yay honesty!

At the point where it seemed like the refreshing candor crowd might prevail, a newspaper columnist pointed out the obvious. Sure, he's honest, she said. So is my four-year-old. Just like Mr. S., my four-year-old is apt to let fly with whatever she's thinking. It's unpadded and unvarnished, and it's also unconsidered. It's not thought out. And, because she's a four-year-old, I know it for what it is. When my four-year-old screeches out her opinion of my parenting style, I don't beam and say, "Oh, that's just great! What refreshing candor!" Instead, I buckle down and work to teach this child some tact.

Candor and sincerity lose their virtue when they're used as a bludgeon in the service of incivility. Four-year-olds are expected to be lacking in self-restraint. Adults must do better.

This is a great summation of the issue with the man.

Demetrio Cereijo
03-24-2011, 12:05 PM
To Henry... I certainly wouldn't want to give the impression of "piling on" Tony when he isn't here to participate. I was actually disappointed I couldn't get his reaction to the bunny picture...

But the "wolf pack" mentality shouldn't be a surprise. Tony managed to offend a lot of people.

People (or at least budo people) should have a thicker skin and the ability to not be easily offended, IMO.

Demetrio Cereijo
03-24-2011, 12:21 PM
Unmoderated internet forums tend to become unreadable very quickly. Please name another social environment in which you can say anything you like, in whatever manner you like, without fear of social repercussions.

I know about two forums with low moderation: BS and Aikiforum (this one in Spanish), and IMO, they are working fine. The spanish one never worked better since the mods left.

Gorgeous George
03-24-2011, 12:23 PM
...but then, it's not like what he said was insightful, well-thought out, and pertinent: he mostly posted one-line insults...or multiple-line insults.

So it's not a matter of appreciating a different point of view - it's about not having to put up with pointless abuse.

Demetrio Cereijo
03-24-2011, 12:41 PM
...but then, it's not like what he said was insightful, well-thought out, and pertinent: he mostly posted one-line insults...or multiple-line insults.

So it's not a matter of appreciating a different point of view - it's about not having to put up with pointless abuse.

If being insightful and pertinent were a requirement for posting, there will be about three aikiweb members allowed to post.

And about insults... you know the saying: sticks and stones. OTOH, if you feel e-abused or e-bullied fight back.

Hellis
03-24-2011, 12:47 PM
Perhaps you should give this advice to Tony?

Perhaps a much better idea would be for `you` to give this advice to Tony personally, I am sure that he would really appreciate that.

Henry Ellis
British Aikido History
www.british-aikido.com

Janet Rosen
03-24-2011, 12:53 PM
...but then, it's not like what he said was insightful, well-thought out, and pertinent: he mostly posted one-line insults...or multiple-line insults..

This to me is taking to a personal level I feel is wrong, whether he is here or not.

Gorgeous George
03-24-2011, 01:21 PM
Perhaps a much better idea would be for `you` to give this advice to Tony personally, I am sure that he would really appreciate that.

Henry Ellis
British Aikido History
www.british-aikido.com

Haha.
I doubt that: i've attempted to.speak sensibly with him numerous times, to no avail; he adores you, Mr Ellis - i'm sure if anyone can reason with him, it's you.

Gorgeous George
03-24-2011, 01:27 PM
This to me is taking to a personal level I feel is wrong, whether he is here or not.

Really? I was speaking analytically and impersonally; whatever crudeness, disrespect, and tactlessness the man displays here, I never take it personally: I just find it stupid and boring, really - nothing to get upset about.
I pity the man, if anything.

Gorgeous George
03-24-2011, 01:29 PM
Plus: he'd be proud of me for 'speaking my mind' - and being just like him!

sakumeikan
03-24-2011, 02:01 PM
Haha.
I doubt that: i've attempted to.speak sensibly with him numerous times, to no avail; he adores you, Mr Ellis - i'm sure if anyone can reason with him, it's you.
Graham,
A bit of passing the parcel /buck on this Mr Ellis's earlier suggestion, eh Graham?
Cheers, Joe.

sakumeikan
03-24-2011, 02:11 PM
Dear All.
Having spent some time reading all the views of ouir dear readers the conclusion I come to is this. You either think Tony is Ok [despite his rhetoric ] or you dont. Maybe we should call this discussion quits and get back to hopefully discussing more meaningful items related to Aikido? We could certainly do with some intelligent items to be discussed for a change. Are my expectations to high??Cheers, Joe

Marc Abrams
03-24-2011, 02:12 PM
If being insightful and pertinent were a requirement for posting, there will be about three aikiweb members allowed to post.

And about insults... you know the saying: sticks and stones. OTOH, if you feel e-abused or e-bullied fight back.

Demetrio:

Finding some sensible guidelines for people to follow is more than reasonable. Within budo we call that "Reigi." When a poster is being intentionally disrespectful and insulting, the results of responding in kind results in a warning from Jun (I know, I have collected them from time to time). This tends to then result in a plethora of passive-aggressive comments that destroy the threads from the focus on the topic.

I agree with your basic premise of "fight back," which is why I have privately and publicly asked Jun to provide some direct feedback, guidelines, etc. so that the responder to the insults and disrespectful comments is not punished as if it was an equal treatment. I do not believe that a person responding to an attack should be equally punished for striking back. I do believe in the concept of justifiable force in responding to attacks.

This is Jun's territory in which he can do as he pleases. He has chosen to suspend posters when they cross lines, AFTER they have been privately warned by him. Unfortunately, the "games" begin as soon as a person starts on the path by being intentionally disrespectful and insulting. There are no easy or simple answers for how to address this problem. This problem currently has Tony as the poster child. He is simply an example of a larger problem that I am trying to get people to focus in on (as opposed to focusing on Tony, who cannot respond at the present time).

I frankly like a spirited debate on all matters as long as it is done within the bounds of appropriate conduct. This is hard to define and hard to stay within for certain people. That is unfortunate. Overall, I have privately and publicly commended Jun on doing a very good job in balancing this task. I still do want some more input from Jun on this area because of the direction that certain topics seem to too often head toward.

Marc Abrams

mathewjgano
03-24-2011, 02:55 PM
Marc,
What would you suggest as better guidelines? I don't see how they can get much better than they already are. I don't think this is a case of someone needing clearer guidelines. If Jun contacts people privately asking them to stop some given behavior and they don't, that seems a pretty conscious choice.
Take care,
Matt

lbb
03-24-2011, 08:03 PM
And about insults... you know the saying: sticks and stones. OTOH, if you feel e-abused or e-bullied fight back.

...and the whole forum degerates into a slagfest. Is it so hard to understand why this is not desirable?

Flintstone
03-24-2011, 10:06 PM
...and the whole forum degerates into a slagfest. Is it so hard to understand why this is not desirable?
No. What seems hard to understand is that other forums worked far better when moderators left. But, alas, that's fact.

lbb
03-25-2011, 07:47 AM
No. What seems hard to understand is that other forums worked far better when moderators left. But, alas, that's fact.

My neighbor had a meteor of solid platinum land in his front lawn, and it's really hard for me to understand why that didn't happen to me, and I just can't get past that fact.

For every forum on the internet that you can name that "worked far better when moderators left", I'm sure we can find hundreds that went the other way. Expecting otherwise is just like waiting for that meteor of solid platinum to land in on your lawn: it could happen, but the smart money bets the other way.

Flintstone
03-25-2011, 07:55 AM
it could happen, but the smart money bets the other way.
I bet that if you really knew where the smart money was you would be rich and retired by now. But hey, maybe you are. I mean... that's your opinion, not a fact.

ninjaqutie
03-25-2011, 11:29 AM
Wow Alejandro, you are on a roll in both threads in this section. I'm afraid you might be rolling downhill though...... might want to stop yourself while you still can.

I'm all for you stating your opinion, which can agree or differ from mine or others, but you need not make swipes at people like you are. Or are you hoping to get banned just to make a point? I'm sure Jun could accomodate you if you ask nicely......

Hellis
03-25-2011, 11:40 AM
Wow Alejandro, you are on a roll in both threads in this section. I'm afraid you might be rolling downhill though...... might want to stop yourself while you still can.

I'm all for you stating your opinion, ......

Everyone seems to value free speech, until you try it.

Alejandro appears very capable of taking care of himself.

Henry Ellis
http://henryellis-aikido.blogspot.com/

Flintstone
03-25-2011, 11:42 AM
Wow, Ashley. What are those swipes you're talking about? Or are you taking it personal because you think... different.

If Jun wants to ban me, that's his choice to do so. Am I looking forward it? No. Will I get a ban? Most probably. I think different.

akiy
03-25-2011, 11:51 AM
OK, folks -- watch your tone, please.

-- Jun

Demetrio Cereijo
03-25-2011, 12:58 PM
Demetrio:

Finding some sensible guidelines for people to follow is more than reasonable. Within budo we call that "Reigi." When a poster is being intentionally disrespectful and insulting, the results of responding in kind results in a warning from Jun (I know, I have collected them from time to time). This tends to then result in a plethora of passive-aggressive comments that destroy the threads from the focus on the topic.

I agree with your basic premise of "fight back," which is why I have privately and publicly asked Jun to provide some direct feedback, guidelines, etc. so that the responder to the insults and disrespectful comments is not punished as if it was an equal treatment. I do not believe that a person responding to an attack should be equally punished for striking back. I do believe in the concept of justifiable force in responding to attacks.
Hi Marc,

I don't think responding in kind (as insulting back) is the best method for giving a troll a good and deserved e-asskickin'. If Jun approves said e-asskicking or not is his prerrogative. If the result is being banned, well, deal with it.

What I dislike is people prone to "Oh noes, you are offending me!!!", whining, going passive-aggresive (but polite) and asking Jun to deal with the offender.

This is Jun's territory in which he can do as he pleases.
Of course.

I frankly like a spirited debate on all matters as long as it is done within the bounds of appropriate conduct. This is hard to define and hard to stay within for certain people. That is unfortunate.
Agree, but this how people are.

Overall, I have privately and publicly commended Jun on doing a very good job in balancing this task.
Considering how weird akidoka are, he's doing a good job. However, IMO, I think he accepts a lot of sillyness as long is written in a politre manner

@Mary
...and the whole forum degerates into a slagfest. Is it so hard to understand why this is not desirable?
It depends on the posters. If they love the place, they will take care of it.

Hellis
03-25-2011, 01:13 PM
What I dislike is people prone to "Oh noes, you are offending me!!!", whining, going passive-aggresive (but polite) and asking Jun to deal with the offender.
.

I agree !!
It is hard for me to understand that an adult would approach the site moderator about another poster, maybe I am just too old fashioned.
I don't feel the need to read or even post on every thread..It is so easy to ignore or just move on....Read the newly added article on teaching blind and disabled people, you may just feel less hard done by.

Henry Ellis
Aikido Articles
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/

ninjaqutie
03-25-2011, 01:22 PM
Alejandro appears very capable of taking care of himself.

I agree with you there. I do not get the impression that he is the type to go crying in the corner because someone called him a name on the playground.

Wow, Ashley. What are those swipes you're talking about? Or are you taking it personal because you think... different.

My opinion on the matter isn't what I posted about. In fact, I hardly participated in the thread that got Tony banned. Hence I posted earlier about my confusion involving the bunny photo…..

Since I didn’t really read that thread in its entirety, I cannot even begin to formulate an opinion on whether he was rightfully banned or not. I’m not going to jump on the bandwagon that said he deserves it and I’m not going to jump on the train of those riding off into the sunset who say he was banned unnecessarily either.

I am a true believer that everyone should have a right to say what they think (whether it differs from my own or others opinions), provided they are civil about it. For the most part, you have been civil and I personally don’t have issue with you. Comments such as "I bet that if you really knew where the smart money was, you would be rich and retired by now." aren’t really appropriate in my book though. I guess it depends on how you read the sentence and infer your context, which is difficult to do online. Perhaps I read it more harshly then you intended.

Maybe it is wrong of me to point you out, as others have been childish too (perhaps even myself at times), but for some reason, some of the things you said (as previously mentioned) or about Jun bugged me today. Maybe I am just overly sensitive today and if that is the case…. poopoo on me.

If Jun wants to ban me, that's his choice to do so. Am I looking forward it? No. Will I get a ban? Most probably. I think different.

I actually hope you do NOT get banned. I find it quite dull with people around that always have the same points of view. I actually like having friendly debates and learning about other people’s perspectives. I often find that even though opinions can be 100% different, often enough, there is something there that is actually a valid point.

dps
03-25-2011, 02:15 PM
This is an interesting thread.

Someone posts a thank you to Tony because of advice Tony gives him and the thread degenerates into bickering, fighting and name calling and Jun has to caution people.

Odds are that this thread will get closed by Jun.

Tony did not start the thread, has no posts in the thread.

Maybe Tony is not the problem after all.

dps

mathewjgano
03-25-2011, 02:56 PM
"It's easier to put out the fire in your neighbor's house than to put out the fire in your own."


Maybe Tony is not the problem after all.

dps

I don't think it's a matter of "the" problem. "A" maybe. I believe "the" problem is that people like to get sand caught in their proverbials and that the language centers in our brains are too developed. We also tend to forget our own use of hyperbole and confuse fact and opinion except when it comes to retorting to the "other side's" use of the very same rhetoric.

So here's my thought, before I'm done here (I can't think of anything further to say other than to try and nit-pick what others have said...which I recognize I may be a little too quick to do):
I don't know if it's appropriate or not, but I would love to hear people's opinions about my contributions here. Please don't reply here but send PM; I would genuinely appreciate it.
I think if there's a problem with how conversations go on this forum it has far less to do with site moderation than personal moderation. With that in mind, please folks, help me catch a clue about how I'm contributing here.
...I'd hate to be part of the ego-stroking establishment.:p The Pac NW Anarchistic police would come tip over my starbucks if they knew I joined an establishment!

Take care,
Matt

mathewjgano
03-25-2011, 04:03 PM
Just to be clear, sentence 3 was meant to be ironically put, which was why I followed with the remark about hyperbole. I hope it wasn't too unseemly.

kironin
03-25-2011, 07:26 PM
Henry,

It's not too hard understand that a thread with that sort of title is going to get a lot of views. That is pretty much a perennial question in the martial arts. "Is Your X up to Reality?" is guaranteed to get a look. I should be one of those offended by what he writes I guess, though after reading what he wrote and then by the powers of youtube getting to watch him do aikido I pretty much lost interest. I'm open to criticism from some one doing something interesting / different / unexpected but the reality of what he does, pretty standard aikido practice, and that contrasted with what he posts doesn't leave much of interest. So I don't find him objectionable, I find it more "meh", nothing new here. Heard it all on aikido-L and more in the 90's.

It's nice he prompted Daniel to expand his horizons, so kudos to him for that. What Jun does with his FREE forum giving all the work put into it is fine by me. I am on professional forums that when you get banned, you get banned permanently. There is no time-out, there is just gone. I think Jun's touch is pretty light compared to the e-budo forums.

As for unmoderated martial arts forums. Am I the only that remembers the old usenet forums ? 15-20 years ago that was a pretty common place to have challenges and call outs on a pretty regular basis, and there were cases of people showing up in other peoples doorways :crazy:

George

What I don't understand is if Tony Wagstaffe is so objectionable to so many people, why do they flock to his threads ? ..If I was offended, I would as I have already said " Ignore Tony and his threads " ...The thread " Is Your Aikido up to Reality ? " which has in the region of 14,000 impressions and 344 messages, so when I see Tony referred to as a troll, forgive the wry smile.

Daniel Loydd a ``newbie `` leaves a message of thanks to Tony, people have also flocked to this also with 2000 impressions in a few days...Not to add thanks to Tony, but to take the opportunity to have another dig at a man who is not here to defend himself....

Henry Ellis
Aikido Controversy
http://aikido-controversy.blogspot.com/

Hellis
03-25-2011, 08:27 PM
Henry,

It's not too hard understand that a thread with that sort of title is going to get a lot of views. That is pretty much a perennial question in the martial arts. "Is Your X up to Reality?" is guaranteed to get a look. I should be one of those offended by what he writes I guess, though after reading what he wrote and then by the powers of youtube getting to watch him do aikido I pretty much lost interest. I'm open to criticism from some one doing something interesting / different / unexpected but the reality of what he does, pretty standard aikido practice, and that contrasted with what he posts doesn't leave much of interest. So I don't find him objectionable, I find it more "meh", nothing new here. Heard it all on aikido-L and more in the 90's.

It's nice he prompted Daniel to expand his horizons, so kudos to him for that. What Jun does with his FREE forum giving all the work put into it is fine by me. I am on professional forums that when you get banned, you get banned permanently. There is no time-out, there is just gone. I think Jun's touch is pretty light compared to the e-budo forums.

As for unmoderated martial arts forums. Am I the only that remembers the old usenet forums ? 15-20 years ago that was a pretty common place to have challenges and call outs on a pretty regular basis, and there were cases of people showing up in other peoples doorways :crazy:

Craig

I certainly would not like this forum to be unmoderated..I have seen what happens when a moderator allows too much freedom.

Henry Ellis
http://henryellis-aikido.blogspot.com/

ninjaqutie
03-25-2011, 11:35 PM
On a completely different note Sir Ellis :) your signature just reminded me to thank you for the links to blogs on blogspot you gave me a while ago. I thoroughly enjoyed them.

KaliGman
03-26-2011, 10:22 AM
Perhaps a much better idea would be for `you` to give this advice to Tony personally, I am sure that he would really appreciate that.

Henry Ellis
British Aikido History
www.british-aikido.com

Maybe I am getting the wrong impression from Sensei Ellis' post, but to me it was one of the most useful in this thread. Personally, I feel that a lot of the snide comments, backbiting, vitriol and other issues here could be solved if people would take a hard look at themselves and really, honestly answer the question "Would I say what I am about to post here if I was standing on a mat and face-to-face with the person I am posting about (or posting in response to)?" There are a lot of Keyboard Kommandos who would never dream of telling someone in person what they freely spew on the Internet. I may be wrong, but from my interactions with Tony, I believe that he would say the same thing to my face that he would say on the 'Net and that he would be more than willing to step on a mat and train with me, instruct me on his viewpoint, or spar should I wish. That is one of the reasons that I find his input here valuable. I am not talking about grudge matches, dojo storming, or some of the more ridiculous challenges I have seen issued (one I recall with fondness was an invitation to fly to SouthEast Asia to a remote location controlled by students and friends of the instructor who issued the challenge to engage in a full-contact stick and blade match--an old fashioned death match actually:rolleyes: ). I am just talking about being willing to back up your opinion with skill and the ability to demonstrate your point on a resisting opponent. This can often be a learning experience. Quite often, many learn that they cannot do what they think they can, and it is always better to learn this in a safe training environment rather than when someone is actually trying to hurt you.

My philosophy is not quite so clear cut as "put up or shut up" but that does come close to my viewpoint:p . I will say that I actually go beyond the advice listed above. I am much more restrained and "nicer" on the 'Net than I am in person. What you put out on the Internet can be retrieved by others years later and may make you look like a pompous ass. I am quite good enough at looking like an ass (just ask my wife if you don't believe me) and I do not need to confirm my asshood in glorious print for the world to see. Also, I realized long ago that many who post in regards to self-defense and martial arts have cherished opinions which are not based in reality and that they are never going to move from those opinions based on discussions on the 'Net. In person, I just say "Show me," and we work a little. A lot of ideas and cherished opinions have been discarded then, and a few people have actually thanked me for the experience. I know that I sure thanked the little Filipino guy who kicked my butt when I tried a few things in person--I even learned a few things over the next several years training with him.



...I should be one of those offended by what he writes I guess, though after reading what he wrote and then by the powers of youtube getting to watch him do aikido I pretty much lost interest. I'm open to criticism from some one doing something interesting / different / unexpected but the reality of what he does, pretty standard aikido practice, and that contrasted with what he posts doesn't leave much of interest. So I don't find him objectionable, I find it more "meh", nothing new here. Heard it all on aikido-L and more in the 90's.



When I look at the videos that Tony has posted, I don't see anything extraordinary either. However, my take on the matter is, based on my limited interactions with Tony, I would bet he can perform at near the same level shown on his video while actually engaged in a real fight. In other words, he has real world experience and is unlikely to freeze as many do in real altercations, is unlikely to experience the same level of loss of fine motor skills and the like that plague some who engage in real fighting, is likely to remain calm in the face of situations involving violence, and has had the opportunity to learn what works outside of the dojo and what is merely fluff and pretension. Tony's stuff may not be pretty or anything other than plain vanilla, but I would bet on it working in many real world situations, and I would also feel pretty safe in betting that the majority of people who post on this board would get their butt handed to them in a real altercation against even a semi-competent street thug. The skills that I have and the way I move is not extraordinary to those with high levels of training. However, what I do has been sufficient to see me through 18 years of law enforcement, several SWAT operations, and a few deadly force encounters, while I have seen some "extraordinary," "pretty," and "flashy" people bleeding in the gutter.

Just some thoughts--your mileage may vary.

Hellis
03-26-2011, 10:44 AM
Maybe I am getting the wrong impression from Sensei Ellis' post, but to me it was one of the most useful in this thread. Personally, I feel that a lot of the snide comments, backbiting, vitriol and other issues here could be solved if people would take a hard look at themselves and really, honestly answer the question "Would I say what I am about to post here if I was standing on a mat and face-to-face with the person I am posting about (or posting in response to)?" There are a lot of Keyboard Kommandos who would never dream of telling someone in person what they freely spew on the Internet. .

Jon

Your impression is spot on..The wider and higher the new computer screens, the braver the Plastic Samurai become.
On my sons website he has a message for his visitors, " Don't say anything here that you would not say to my face " ...
The only substitute for reality, is pain.............

Henry Ellis
http://henryellis-aikido.blogspot.com/

Diana Frese
03-26-2011, 11:33 AM
I still read around in controversial threads, but since I have already told some stories of my training background and some dojo I have trained in and visited, I post a bit less these days.

But I have to let you in on what some of you might not know. While not exactly a newbie to Aikido, I've decided to train again and that is a big step. Married to someone who has practiced Aikido in the past but came from Karate (Shotokan, Tsutomu Ohshima's lineage from Gichin Funakoshi) and still practices from time to time, it was discussing Tony's training suggestions that got Chuck and me to decide to train together this spring. As for judo, I took three women's judo courses at Cornell as an undergraduate there, and so it was interesting when Chuck became fascinated with judo for the past two years. So I credit Tony with giving us the encouragement to get back in training and for sending the video and the historical information on Tomiki Aikido. And from that, we began to learn something about the history of British Aikido from other posters as well.

My own training has been, as Francis calls it, eclectic. Would you believe one of my favorite teachers at Hombu, where I studied for a year and a half, was Watanabe Sensei about whose no-touch throws there has been such discussion from the anti-bunny faction.

I haven't been to Japan in over three decades and only asked him a couple of questions when I was there, and so I don't know for sure why he did those in the All Japan demos, but my guess is that he wanted to show there is that possibility in Aikido. My husband's late brother, with whom my husband trained a lot, was a natural in martial arts, starting with high school wrestling. They sparred a lot and my husband says that in certain timing, when the attacker is committed to the attack, the forces are such that one falls without actually being touched. That's the best I can explain it, anyone who wants a better explanation, I'll relay it when he gets back from work.

I hope I haven't reignited a controversy, but there have been a lot of lineage threads, and I felt I should mention my own background.
I've learned a lot from the diversity on Aiki Web and am grateful to all of you. I'm constantly asking my husband, due to my diverse background, if he felt my classes had enough "martial" in them, whether I taught enough basics, whether they were "solid" etc. My descriptions aren't all that great, but I think you all will get the point of my asking for feedback almost thirty years later on what my own classes were like. And now, here's to future training!

Mary Eastland
03-26-2011, 12:01 PM
Thanks, Diana. You consistantly remind me that sharing about my experiences is better for me than sharing my opinion. It is a powerful way to practice Aikiweb aikido.
Mary

Pauliina Lievonen
03-26-2011, 12:07 PM
My impression of a lot of the recent discussions here on Aikiweb is that they really remind me of the aikido-l mail list about ten-eleven years ago (or maybe a bit more?) before the aikido-l seminars.

What happened was that people on aikido-l organised a few get togethers around the US and even a couple in Europe. And after people got together the tone of the discussions really changed.

One, some people who really disagreed online found out that what they did IRL wasn't actually that different, they just wrote about it differently.

Two, people who's aikido really turned out to be miles away from each other met and found out that inspite of that, the other person actually was quite a nice person, and so they started using a different tone in their online disagreements.

Personally BTDT and so I don't feel like taking part in any of that again so much. Apart from this post that is. :)

kvaak (for old times' sake...)
Pauliina

Gorgeous George
03-26-2011, 12:29 PM
Whether or not somebody will say something in person has absolutely no bearing on whether or not it is true.

Marc Abrams
03-26-2011, 12:51 PM
Funny thing is that I invited Tony to the Ushiro Sensei seminar in France (which was postponed due to events in Japan) so that we could meet, train together and wash down the day later with some liquid muscle relaxants. It was Tony who did not want to go. I invited Tony to meet Dan Harden and it was Tony who did not want to go.....

Most people do get along just fine when they finally meet face-to-face. The kind of up close, civility that should exist then, should exist on the web as well. I have no problem saying what I say on the web as in-person. This is just a reflection of how I was raised.

Once again, the issue here has less to do with Tony, but how people choose to conduct themselves on these forums. If a moderator tells you to tone it down and act more respectfully in your posts and you do not, what do you really expect will happen? What does that say about your basic level of respect to the moderator. What does it say about your ability to "play well" with others? If two people know each other and have fun being sarcastic, obnoxious, etc. to each other, then it is understood within the context of the relationship. The forums do not necessarily create the same type of relationships so that what people write can be taken in a variety of ways. That is why we should be careful about how we word things on the internet. I certainly do not believe in being "politically correct," but a degree of initial respect and civility should not be asking too much.

Marc Abrams

Flintstone
03-26-2011, 01:12 PM
The problem comes when you are allowed to be passive-aggressive as long as you don't tone up your wording. You can go all out offending people, but, if you use the right beautiful words then it ain't no problem. You raise your tome a bit without being insulting and, zas, you're out.

That. Is. The. Problem.

mathewjgano
03-26-2011, 05:37 PM
The problem comes when you are allowed to be passive-aggressive as long as you don't tone up your wording. You can go all out offending people, but, if you use the right beautiful words then it ain't no problem. You raise your tome a bit without being insulting and, zas, you're out.

That. Is. The. Problem.

Passive-aggressive behavior doesn't usually bother me so much. It's not very useful for conversation, but aggressive behavior bothers me more so. I might be missing part of what passive-aggressive behavior actually is, but it's never seemed like an issue for me...I might just be oblivious.
I still think "the" problem is more complex than some group of passive-aggressives.
p.s. I'm still hoping for direct feedback on how I carry myself here.
Take care,
Matt

kironin
03-26-2011, 06:10 PM
Beyond the fact there is really no way you could know that to be true till the sh#t hit the fan, what really matters to me is less what I would do but what my students have done whose day job is in law enforcement and the appreciation they have communicated back to me for what they learned in the dojo. I've learned from their creativity.

ymmv of course.


When I look at the videos that Tony has posted, I don't see anything extraordinary either. However, my take on the matter is, based on my limited interactions with Tony, I would bet he can perform at near the same level shown on his video while actually engaged in a real fight. In other words, he has real world experience and is unlikely to freeze as many do in real altercations, is unlikely to experience the same level of loss of fine motor skills and the like that plague some who engage in real fighting, is likely to remain calm in the face of situations involving violence, and has had the opportunity to learn what works outside of the dojo and what is merely fluff and pretension. Tony's stuff may not be pretty or anything other than plain vanilla, but I would bet on it working in many real world situations, and I would also feel pretty safe in betting that the majority of people who post on this board would get their butt handed to them in a real altercation against even a semi-competent street thug. The skills that I have and the way I move is not extraordinary to those with high levels of training. However, what I do has been sufficient to see me through 18 years of law enforcement, several SWAT operations, and a few deadly force encounters, while I have seen some "extraordinary," "pretty," and "flashy" people bleeding in the gutter.

Just some thoughts--your mileage may vary.

kironin
03-26-2011, 06:17 PM
:D It's still amusing to think that people actually thought I and one of the more prankster types on aikido-L were actually going to come to blows in San Antonio in '98 when we met. That was a fun weekend other than the unfortunate accident of one participant.

My impression of a lot of the recent discussions here on Aikiweb is that they really remind me of the aikido-l mail list about ten-eleven years ago (or maybe a bit more?) before the aikido-l seminars.

What happened was that people on aikido-l organised a few get togethers around the US and even a couple in Europe. And after people got together the tone of the discussions really changed.

One, some people who really disagreed online found out that what they did IRL wasn't actually that different, they just wrote about it differently.

Two, people who's aikido really turned out to be miles away from each other met and found out that inspite of that, the other person actually was quite a nice person, and so they started using a different tone in their online disagreements.

Personally BTDT and so I don't feel like taking part in any of that again so much. Apart from this post that is. :)

kvaak (for old times' sake...)
Pauliina

gregstec
03-27-2011, 05:49 PM
Since everyone else is waxing philosophically here, I will take my shot at it as well.

"Thank you Tony Wagstaffe" for sacrificing yourself to banishment so the rest of us could exercise the typical human behavior of talking behind one's back just so we can bolster our own egos and ignore our own shortcomings - you are truly a martyr :rolleyes:

Greg

mathewjgano
03-27-2011, 06:17 PM
Since everyone else is waxing philosophically here, I will take my shot at it as well.

"Thank you Tony Wagstaffe" for sacrificing yourself to banishment so the rest of us could exercise the typical human behavior of talking behind one's back just so we can bolster our own egos and ignore our own shortcomings - you are truly a martyr :rolleyes:

Greg

For the record I've been assuming he's reading these threads...so I assume I'm talking in front of his back...er...something like that.

gregstec
03-27-2011, 08:49 PM
For the record I've been assuming he's reading these threads...so I assume I'm talking in front of his back...er...something like that.

I assume he is as well (unless Jun bans the IP address and not just the user name) and I am sure he is having a good laugh over all the fuss - I am just having some fun as well :)

Greg

Hellis
03-28-2011, 02:44 AM
I am in no doubt that most on here take Tony far more seriously than he does them..

Henry Ellis
http://henryellis-aikido.blogspot.com/

David Orange
03-28-2011, 08:54 AM
I am in no doubt that most on here take Tony far more seriously than he does them..

Henry Ellis


We also give him more respect than he gives others or pretty much anything else, including aikido.

I remember somewhere I said that my fate was in God's hands. Tony replied that his fate is in his own hands.

Well, I say, if he can't even control his own destiny on a website--if Jun Akiyama can silence him at will--he ought to consider that God, too, can silence him at will and someday shall. A little more respect and consideration is merited all around.

Best to you.

David

sorokod
03-28-2011, 10:57 AM
Too funny! A forum moderator as a deity!
So being kicked out of the forum, is it like death or more like the expulsion from eden?

David Orange
03-28-2011, 11:45 AM
Too funny! A forum moderator as a deity!
So being kicked out of the forum, is it like death or more like the expulsion from eden?

With the difference being that you can come back from Jun's suspensions if your offense wasn't too bad.

But my point, of course, is that if you can't even control your presence on an internet message board....your "destiny" in life is certainly beyond your control.

David

mathewjgano
03-28-2011, 02:26 PM
I assume he is as well (unless Jun bans the IP address and not just the user name) and I am sure he is having a good laugh over all the fuss - I am just having some fun as well :)

Greg

:) I hear ya. I guess some of the posts have made me a little self-conscious. I don't feel like I got much feedback on what I had to say so I'm unsure of how I'm coming across...and with all the talk about passive-aggressive behavior, I just want to be clear and as straight forward as I know how.

if you can't even control your presence on an internet message board....your "destiny" in life is certainly beyond your control.
I'm not sure I agree. I think it's often easier to let the little things (like chatting online) slide, while maintaining a higher degree of mindfullness for the more obviously important things.
Take care, folks,
Matt

gregstec
03-28-2011, 06:30 PM
:) I hear ya. I guess some of the posts have made me a little self-conscious. I don't feel like I got much feedback on what I had to say so I'm unsure of how I'm coming across...and with all the talk about passive-aggressive behavior, I just want to be clear and as straight forward as I know how.

Matt

"passive-aggressive behavior" sounds like a symptom where someone does not know if they are coming or going - or maybe like a dog chasing its own tail - either way, I think it makes me dizzy :)

Greg

George S. Ledyard
03-30-2011, 12:43 AM
George

What I don't understand is if Tony Wagstaffe is so objectionable to so many people, why do they flock to his threads ? ..If I was offended, I would as I have already said " Ignore Tony and his threads " ...The thread " Is Your Aikido up to Reality ? " which has in the region of 14,000 impressions and 344 messages, so when I see Tony referred to as a troll, forgive the wry smile.

Daniel Loydd a ``newbie `` leaves a message of thanks to Tony, people have also flocked to this also with 2000 impressions in a few days...Not to add thanks to Tony, but to take the opportunity to have another dig at a man who is not here to defend himself....

Henry Ellis
Aikido Controversy
http://aikido-controversy.blogspot.com/

No question... I have only once gotten to the point at which I hit the ignore button on someone, and it wasn't Tony. It's the nature of our whole culture now, at least in the US, and I assume the UK is the same, that conflict sells far better than any kind of normal discussion.

Consistently. one can see that a given thread has a certain life no matter how interesting it might be. But if a few folks comment on that thread, its life will continue twice as long. But if at least one person gets into a dispute with someone else on a thread, the views will quickly go to the thousands.

I think it is quite possible to develop some notoriety on the forums by playing the "bad boy" and get fully as many folks reading you as the folks considered to be the most positive contributors. It's an interesting thing to watch.

George S. Ledyard
03-30-2011, 12:45 AM
I am in no doubt that most on here take Tony far more seriously than he does them..

Henry Ellis
http://henryellis-aikido.blogspot.com/

A precise statement of the issue, I would say.