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last straw
03-06-2011, 01:35 PM
I have a question recently a young lady joined the dojo and I have noticed a lot of the students shy away from training with her but now I know why to much makeup and lipstick how can you tell this young lady to tone it down a bit without starting drama thanks

lbb
03-06-2011, 03:46 PM
I'd let some of the women in the dojo handle it -- this is an issue best handled in the women's dressing room, where someone can casually say, "Whoa, look at my gi! Who's wearing the makeup? Oh, it's you? See, this is why we don't wear makeup on the mat" etc.

philipsmith
03-06-2011, 04:03 PM
Just tell her.

We give each new student a list of do's and dont's including things like length of fingernails, make-up etc.

Since we've done that (some years now) we haven't had a problem

ninjaqutie
03-06-2011, 09:45 PM
I would think it would be a bit more comfortable for this female to hear coming from another female, so I agree with Mary's suggestion. Maybe one of the girls there can show up in makeup, but then wash it off there and explain why she did it to the new girl. Either that or create a list of rules that you can give her.

Janet Rosen
03-06-2011, 11:39 PM
Is it just me or what????
I really don't think it's that big deal to say, Hey your lipstick stained my gi, would you mind taking it off before training next time?
I mean... if you are mature enough to show up and pay dues, what's the big frikkin' deal????

mrlizard123
03-07-2011, 07:39 AM
Is it just me or what????
I really don't think it's that big deal to say, Hey your lipstick stained my gi, would you mind taking it off before training next time?
I mean... if you are mature enough to show up and pay dues, what's the big frikkin' deal????

I agree with Janet on this; I think that as adults we should just be able to ask politely if they could leave the make up off when coming on the mat.

As long as it's approached with tact and not called out in front of the class or anything I cannot see why it would be a problem.

(so at least it's not just you Janet ;) if you'll accept my company! :) )

lbb
03-07-2011, 07:43 AM
I mean... if you are mature enough to show up and pay dues, what's the big frikkin' deal????

The "big frikkin' deal" is if you didn't already have a list of rules conspicuously posted -- then it becomes awkward. I agree it's common sense not to train in makeup -- or with anything other than very short nails, or while wearing jewelry of any kind, or in an unwashed gi. But I've said it before and I'll say it again, people in the US are going to think of a dojo as being like a gym, and people do all those things at a gym. If you've ever been in a gym and seen the way some women get all chicked out to work out, you should know that there's a cultural thing. Working with it seems like the sensible thing.

mrlizard123
03-07-2011, 07:54 AM
The "big frikkin' deal" is if you didn't already have a list of rules conspicuously posted -- then it becomes awkward. I agree it's common sense not to train in makeup -- or with anything other than very short nails, or while wearing jewelry of any kind, or in an unwashed gi. But I've said it before and I'll say it again, people in the US are going to think of a dojo as being like a gym, and people do all those things at a gym. If you've ever been in a gym and seen the way some women get all chicked out to work out, you should know that there's a cultural thing. Working with it seems like the sensible thing.

I think that the point is that it's not a big deal to discuss the situation with the student in a respectful fashion irrespective of published rules etc.

It might make one consider publishing such rules/guidelines for future reference but a polite discussion with a student shouldn't be a problem in my opinion.

I've had several discussions about appropriateness of clothing, removal of jewlery etc on numerous occasions with new starters and never had one take umbrage; maybe they were all outraged but too "British" to make a fuss though :p

Tony Wagstaffe
03-07-2011, 08:48 AM
Must remember to put my make up on next time I'm on the mat,
Make sure my handbaggo wa is tidy at my side.
Where's me lipstick dukky?
Do I look alright?
:D

Ooooooh sailor you look lovely!!!

Basia Halliop
03-07-2011, 10:22 AM
Is it just me or what????
I really don't think it's that big deal to say, Hey your lipstick stained my gi, would you mind taking it off before training next time?
I mean... if you are mature enough to show up and pay dues, what's the big frikkin' deal????

Yeah, I'm with Janet. If there was something I was doing that was bothering other people, I'd rather they just told me right out in a normal (pleasant) way instead of being all 'diplomatic' and 'subtle', which makes it feel like it was really a huge deal. The more casual and matter of fact, the less awkward, IMO.

sakumeikan
03-07-2011, 01:42 PM
Must remember to put my make up on next time I'm on the mat,
Make sure my handbaggo wa is tidy at my side.
Where's me lipstick dukky?
Do I look alright?
:D

Ooooooh sailor you look lovely!!!
Tony,
Just make sure your wig is nailed on securely and you false eyelashes are glued on . You look great - like Marilyn Monroe after a train wreck. Joe.

Tony Wagstaffe
03-07-2011, 01:50 PM
Tony,
Just make sure your wig is nailed on securely and you false eyelashes are glued on . You look great - like Marilyn Monroe after a train wreck. Joe.

Blimey!! That tasty.....
As I stand with hand on hip, and the other one making flamboyant suggestions....

Tiny

Michael Hackett
03-07-2011, 01:51 PM
I'm from California, and the Left Coast to boot, but I still have a question: when did women become such delicate flowers that a polite and tactful request regarding make-up/lipstick/perfume become politically incorrect? To my neanderthal mind, it still seems reasonable for the aggrieved party to discretely speak up about a soiled uniform, regardless of gender.

And I think the gym comparison is faulty as well. Men and women go to a gym for different reasons than they train in Aikido. In the gym you generally find one of two classes of people; those who are out of shape and trying to improve, and those who are in good shape and proud to show off their tone and muscle development. In the dojo most folks are there to learn an art and aren't quite so interested in demonstrating their attractiveness.

Janet Rosen
03-07-2011, 02:01 PM
When you start doing things in a gym that involve the possibility of smearing cosmetics on other people, then the same issue applies. I stand by my post; if some people insist on treating adult life as if they were in middle school, doesn't mean the rest of us have play into it.

kewms
03-07-2011, 02:04 PM
Reminds me of the time some guy hadn't washed his feet and tracked dirt all over the mat. I loudly called him out for it, he hastily apologized and bowed out to take care of it, and it never happened again. If someone's head will explode because the owner of a makeup-smeared keiko gi complains, how will they ever deal with the other stress that comes with studying a martial art?

With that said, one doesn't necessarily want to blast beginners off the mat for their first etiquette infraction. So you might want to mention it more discreetly. Just be matter-of-fact about it: you don't care what she does off the mat, but remember that aikido is a full-contact practice.

Katherine

Tony Wagstaffe
03-07-2011, 02:34 PM
Many moons ago, we had a particular feller who was a bit shy of soap and water...... I doesn't take much to imagine what it was like every time he raised his arms and parted his legs in what ever he happened to be doing. After a couple of sessions it became apparent who the offender was..... What we all did at the next session was all turned up with clothes line washing pegs at the ready....
When it was the turn of anybody to partner up as his uke we all donned the pegs to our hooters.
It had quite a surprising difference to his attitude and he never ever turned up stinking again..... He turned out to be quite a good aikidoka and we were sorry to lose him when he emigrated to Aussie....

lbb
03-07-2011, 02:41 PM
I'm from California, and the Left Coast to boot, but I still have a question: when did women become such delicate flowers that a polite and tactful request regarding make-up/lipstick/perfume become politically incorrect?

Oh, honestly. Where did you get this "polite and tactful request" becoming "politically incorrect"? No one said or suggested any such thing. OP just asked for suggestions on how to handle the situation. People gave opinions. AFAIK no one criticized any suggestion saying "Oh wow no you can't do that, that's POLITICALLY INCORRECT!!!" So why the need to create this strawman?

lbb
03-07-2011, 02:42 PM
When you start doing things in a gym that involve the possibility of smearing cosmetics on other people, then the same issue applies. I stand by my post; if some people insist on treating adult life as if they were in middle school, doesn't mean the rest of us have play into it.

Who did this, Janet? Who "insist[ed] on treating adult life as if they were in middle school"?

Michael Hackett
03-07-2011, 03:25 PM
Sorry Mary, I don't see the strawman either. Your suggestion that it best be handled by the other women of the dojo gave rise to my comment. I simply don't see any reason why any person in the dojo couldn't successfully speak to this woman in a polite and tactful way. Your advice sounded to me as if you considered it inappropriate that a male address the issue, thus suggesting to me that political correctness was rearing it's head. If that wasn't your intent, then I apologize. If it was, I will ask one of the women to offer you my apologies for offending you.

dps
03-07-2011, 03:58 PM
Isn't sensei in charge of the class.

We had a similar situation at our dojo.
We complained to sensei and he told the woman.

dps

Janet Rosen
03-07-2011, 04:02 PM
There were suggestions it should be a woman making the suggestion, that a woman might want to wear makeup in order to wash it off in front of her... all as if a simple, direct communication would, in the words of the OP, "create drama."

Hellis
03-07-2011, 04:17 PM
I had one student that had a ` pen & ink ` problem, I took him to one side and informed him that Boots the Chemist were doing two deodorants for the price of three...worked...

Henry Ellis
http://aikido-books.blogspot.com/

Anthony Loeppert
03-07-2011, 05:16 PM
Boots the Chemist were doing two deodorants for the price of three...worked...


2 for the price of 3? I think I'd shop elsewhere :)

Regards,
Anthony

raul rodrigo
03-07-2011, 06:51 PM
I've had no trouble telling women in our dojo that it's best for them to remove earrings and the like. And anyone who hasn't practiced some basic hygiene gets feedback about it immediately. No drama to it.

Two of our yudansha use the Japanese cotton indigo hakama, which stains other people's gis a lot. We complain, but there really seems to be nothing to do; indigo is like that, even if they try to fix it with vinegar and whatnot. We just wait out the month or so it takes for the staining to stop.

Janet Rosen
03-07-2011, 07:51 PM
Two of our yudansha use the Japanese cotton indigo hakama, which stains other people's gis a lot. We complain, but there really seems to be nothing to do; indigo is like that, even if they try to fix it with vinegar and whatnot. We just wait out the month or so it takes for the staining to stop.

Vinegar doesn't "fix" indigo. It might conceivably help the fabric shed the massively excess amount of dye applied to it, but probably no more than simple wash/rinse/repeat will.

raul rodrigo
03-07-2011, 08:35 PM
Vinegar doesn't "fix" indigo. It might conceivably help the fabric shed the massively excess amount of dye applied to it, but probably no more than simple wash/rinse/repeat will.

So that explains it. An aikido "old wives tale," so to speak?

ninjaqutie
03-07-2011, 10:31 PM
I don't disagree that it isn't something that a man couldn't say, but depending on the person and their personality, sometimes one method is better then another. I guess an example would be if you had your zipper down at work. Sure you would want someone to tell you. Some would prefer to be told in a quiet subtle way. Others could care less if you yelled across the room "JOHN! YOUR FLY IS DOWN!"

On another note, just because someone is an adult doesn't mean that they aren't shy and sensitive. Everyone feels awkward when they first join a dojo. It was just a suggestion that could help minimize the embarrassment or the awkwardness of the situation.

Eva Antonia
03-08-2011, 03:14 AM
Hello,

in my dojo no one cares who wears make up, who stinks and who has long finger- or toenails. If a gi gets smeared, you can wash it, can't you? Most people do that anyway after class, so where is the problem? And if we don't stink sweaty at the beginning of the training, we sure do at the end :yuck: - so where's the point?

But I remember when training in Azerbaidjan, I had my usual make-up, and before training a woman came with some mirror and a make-up box and said something in Russian. I didn't understand anything; I thought maybe my make-up was out of order and she gave that to fix it again. So I put some more colour on...and that was exactly the wrong thing. She said something more in Russian which I still didn't understand, and afterwards another woman came and explained I was supposed to take the make-up OFF. So I did, but until reading this thread I still hadn't understood why; I kept thinking that taking off make-up was maybe an Azeri aikido ritual.

However, I think there is no point in getting offended, neither by someone's make-up on your kimono nor by someone telling you to take off your make-up (or to cut your nails, to take off your gold chain, to wash your feet or whatever).

Have a nice day!

Eva

raul rodrigo
03-08-2011, 04:51 AM
Eva, I don't mind the occasional strong odor. But there are some people who can knock down an uke just by raising their arms. Seriously. Doing the waza is hard enough without throwing chemical warfare into the mix.

CitoMaramba
03-08-2011, 04:57 AM
Eva, I don't mind the occasional strong odor. But there are some people who can knock down an uke just by raising their arms. Seriously. Doing the waza is hard enough without throwing chemical warfare into the mix.

Raul, that is Ki (-li-kili) power!

Sorry, everyone.. inside joke.. :D

raul rodrigo
03-08-2011, 05:10 AM
"Inside" to any Filipino on Aikiweb, that is. Hi, Sito. For Pinoys, it's a wisecrack that's hard to resist.

lbb
03-08-2011, 07:32 AM
Sorry Mary, I don't see the strawman either. Your suggestion that it best be handled by the other women of the dojo gave rise to my comment. I simply don't see any reason why any person in the dojo couldn't successfully speak to this woman in a polite and tactful way. Your advice sounded to me as if you considered it inappropriate that a male address the issue, thus suggesting to me that political correctness was rearing it's head. If that wasn't your intent, then I apologize. If it was, I will ask one of the women to offer you my apologies for offending you.

There's a difference between tact and political correctness, although lately it seems that fewer and fewer people understand the distinction, and are quick to yell, "Political correctness!" anytime someone suggests the use of tact.

Mary Eastland
03-08-2011, 08:23 AM
When I was teaching a class at BCC one of the female exchange students had terrible foot odor. She wore awful smelling sweaty socks and really didn't want to take them off. She spoke very little English and I spoke even less of her language so comuncation was tricky. She was very large and socially awkward. My goal was for least possible amount of harm from her classmates.
So I prayed for an idea...It came. I bought her six pairs of really cute socks and asked her to change into to them especially for class. She loved the idea and the gift.
It worked...she was a dear heart and such a gift to me and the rest of the class.
Mary

Janet Rosen
03-08-2011, 10:24 AM
I bought her six pairs of really cute socks and asked her to change into to them especially for class. She loved the idea and the gift.
It worked...she was a dear heart and such a gift to me and the rest of the class.
Mary

In this case you were sizing up an entire situation and came up with an elegant solution!

Keith Larman
03-08-2011, 12:35 PM
Like most things... Sempai should step up first and point out the issue. I have zero problem with Mary M's approach as it strikes me as a reasonable, sensitive approach. But if that isn't going to happen I have zero problem letting someone know that I don't want to explain lipstick on my gi to my wife later. It just isn't the place for makeup. Or jewelery. Or hygiene problems. Or whatever. This ain't really a dojo issue so much as just a "people gettin' along" issue. Seems like a minor thing to me. Just say something. It's not the place for makeup nor is it the place for 3 inch fingernails. Simple as that.

One kid came back from vacation once with all sorts of beads braided into her hair. Caught one of those in my face. Suggested either a beanie cap or taking out the damned beads next time...

dps
03-08-2011, 02:51 PM
I kept thinking that taking off make-up was maybe an Azeri aikido ritual.


lol :)

dps