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nikonl
05-29-2002, 03:45 AM
A boy who was attacked on board a crowded MRT train "is upset that no one on the train came forward to stop the assault."

On the other hand, a man died from injuries he sustained while intervening a fight.

What would you do if you witnessed a fight, say, on board a MRT train? Intervene? Watch and do nothing? Call the police? Move to another carriage in the train? Get down the train?

http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/singaporelocalnews/view/8690/1/.html


MRT train = subway train

shihonage
05-29-2002, 04:23 AM
Depends. On. Circumstances.

jk
05-29-2002, 04:30 AM
This is always a tough one...in most jurisdictions, you're under no legal obligation to intervene. The easy thing to say here is "notify the relevant authorities ASAP."

The rest depends on your particular moral compass, and how convinced you are towards following said compass...

Still thinking...

Nathan Pereira
05-29-2002, 06:26 AM
Intervene

Jim ashby
05-29-2002, 06:39 AM
Hi Nathan, nice to see another Bill Hicks fan. BTW do you have a brother called Lance?
Have fun.

Kat.C
05-29-2002, 07:06 AM
Do what you can live with.

And make sure that you live.

Nathan Pereira
05-29-2002, 08:22 AM
James,

Have a brother but not called Lance. Glad there's another BH fan here too. Greatly missed.

SeiserL
05-29-2002, 09:29 AM
I would have to live with my own self-judgement afterwards, so in an attempt to save the person (and myself from myself), I would have to interven in some way (first verbally with good manners) while I asked someone else to call the proper authroites.

IMHO, Warriors fight not because they hate the enemy but becasue they love the people they protect. If we cannot feel our connectedness to other people's suffering we have not learned what Budo means.

"Let's roll!"

Until again,

Lynn
Nidan Tenshinkai Aikido
Lucaylucay Kali JKD

Edward
05-29-2002, 10:06 AM
A few years ago, in the underground train "metro" of Paris, a girl was raped by a single teenager armed with a knife. The train was full, but every one looked the other way.
No one even rang the alarm or called the police, they just sat in their seats and pretended nothing was happening.

Nathan Pereira
05-29-2002, 10:15 AM
Altenatively in London a reckless driver who while running from one incident hit some kids was dragged from his car and beaten bloody & unconcious by a crowd of onlookers and left for the police to arrest.

nikonl
05-29-2002, 10:23 AM
Well said Kat. Sad to hear that Edward. Good to hear that Nathan. I guess it all depends on the crowd...

In my case, for those who are too lazy to go to the link :) : A 15 year old boy was attacked by a group of 20 youths in the city train. Fortunately, he survived. When he was interviewed, what hit him most was that no one came to help him, not even one. I was wondering if people these days are getting too self-centred. :(

Brian H
05-29-2002, 10:57 AM
You can effectively intervene = Attack (literally or figuratively)

You would be at great risk to intervene or would further destablize the situation = back off/ call for help-police / be the best witness possible.

You are going to be killed anyway = Attack (literally)

By attack, I mean "take control and stop the aggression." Now that could be anything from telling the teenage train rapist "stop now, WE are not going to let this happen" (He might not realize that you are the only "warrior" available) to shooting/killing them without warning (example: you see a suicide bomber making final preparations and "stop now, WE are not going to let this happen" will just get you and everyone around you blown up)

Diablo
05-29-2002, 01:12 PM
[i](snipped)

IMHO, Warriors fight not because they hate the enemy but becasue they love the people they protect. If we cannot feel our connectedness to other people's suffering we have not learned what Budo means.

"Let's roll!"

Until again,

Lynn
Nidan Tenshinkai Aikido
Lucaylucay Kali JKD [/B]

Very well said.
To be very honest, pertaining to the question about whether I would help someone being jumped by a group of thugs, I have two answers. As a youth growing up in Dallas, Texas, (in the late 80's), I probably wouldn't have stepped in to help. If you went to where the dance clubs and to where everybody was cruising, people jumping others was an occurance that happened every weekend. Gangs were prevalent there, and you just minded your own business. Things happened for a reason. I am not proud of saying that, but that's just the way things were back then.
As an adult, (32 yrs. old now) after getting married, having kids and all, I became a better person, and I say that I would jump in to help somebody. A few years ago, it was my brother-in-laws birthday, and after dinner we decided to go to a pool hall. To make a long story short, my brother-in-law was being jumped by some mexicans (no offense meant, I guess I can say that because I am mexican-american), being outnumbered, I grabbed a pool stick, and after each stick got broke, I grabbed another one. I can still picture them losing all motor functions and just collapsing to the ground. After the police came, they took our statements, the owner of the pool hall told them we were defending ourselves, and the ambulance took them away and we were told to go home.
The next question might be: "Yes, you would help family or a loved one, but would you help a total stranger?" The answer would be yes because I have been in that situtation where I was in trouble and nobody helped, so I know how that feels.
I have heard that it is not wrong to be afraid, because fear is what tells you that something is wrong, and that is what might keep you alive.
I have also heard that "The only thing we have to fear is fear alone." I would say that is a wrong statement because I would argue that what I would fear is being jumped, hit, and kicked by 20 guys while you are trying to help a complete stranger.

It's all about connection.
Diablo

BC
05-29-2002, 02:09 PM
DOne it. A couple years ago a boy was starting to get pummelled by some of his "friends" (bloody lip and all) on the Chicago subway one night. I yelled at them in a nasty tone to "knock it off!" They stopped after giving me some mean looks. Interestingly, no one else on the train did anything. Would I do it again? Depends on the specific facts and circumstances.

Kat.C
05-29-2002, 03:33 PM
Isn't it kind of sad that people feel unafraid to attack others on crowded trains and other public areas, that they are confident that nobody is going to step in and help their victim?
There is a quote pertaining to this, I'm not sure if I've remembered it exactly:

Evil flourishes when good men do nothing.

Kind of ironic in a way, if more of us were willing to risk ourselves to help others we would all be safer. I mean how many people would still attack someone on a train if they believed everyone else would come to the rescue?
And no, I have never been in a position like the ones described so I don't know what I would do. Probably I would run away if I could, I am not the bravest of souls. :blush:

RossEd
05-29-2002, 05:09 PM
Remember something my girlfriend did in a psychology investigation about bystander apathy and diffusion of resposibility.

From a website:
DEFINITION

Bystander apathy is defined as "people are less likely to provide needed help when they are in groups than when they are alone" (Baron and Byrne 2000,p 398)

Weitin (1998) says "the fact that the likelihood of a pro social response to an emergency is affected by the number of bystanders who are present: as the number of bystanders increases, the probability that anyone bystander will help decreases and the amount of time that passes before help occurs increase" (p 672)

I think there were experiments where it appeared someone was attacked and when only one witness was present, they intervened (~70-80%) but if there were numerous onlookers the %age went right down. But in the same "high witness" situation, if the attacked pointed to an individual and asked for help the chance of intervention was v.high again.

Another involved a football (soccer) fan outside Anfield, Liverpool who looked as if they had been badly beaten after the game. If the victim was wearing a Liverpool kit, the victim received help instantly. If he was wearing a Manchester United kit, hundreds of Liverpool fans just passed him by.

Strange the way we rationalise our trivial reasons for helping/not helping someone in need.

Anyway, you can all wake up now, I'm done.

Cheers,

Ross

guest1234
05-29-2002, 06:04 PM
The crowd response is why I've always gone for a person-directive approach when resuscitating a patient: "you!" (to one of the onlookers,making eye contact, pointing at him/her) "go call 911 and come back" (important or they may just use the opportunity to run away)...otherwise everyone just stands there waiting for someone else to do something. One person is often all it takes to mobilize a group: S.L.A. Marshall's work on WWII veterns showed that all it took was one man to oppose the enemy in a unit to stir the others into action. But if the initial one did not act, the whole unit could be immobile.

OTOH, I think a train full of dead people is not a good solution either. If someone intervenes, and it convinces one of the group of 20 youths to pull out a semi-automatic and open fire, not a good thing. It was just in the local DC papers about an attempted murder foiled when a passerby saw what was happening and called out (from a safe vantage point) that he was calling 911 on his cell phone).

Action should be taken, but it is better to choose correctly, even if it is not as flashy.

Jem8472
05-29-2002, 06:30 PM
I think I would have to do something. I stand by what I say in my signature.


Jeremy

Kat.C
05-29-2002, 07:39 PM
You know, sometimes there just isn't any immediate help a person can offer, but another important thing that you can do is to use your eyes. Take note of what the attacker looks like, especially any features that stand out, so often victims do not see their attackers punished because there is no accurate description of them, and no one, including the victim who is usually scared witless, at the time can give a positive I.D.

Erik
05-29-2002, 07:48 PM
Originally posted by RossEd
Remember something my girlfriend did in a psychology investigation about bystander apathy and diffusion of resposibility.

From a website:
DEFINITION

Bystander apathy is defined as "people are less likely to provide needed help when they are in groups than when they are alone" (Baron and Byrne 2000,p 398)

Weitin (1998) says "the fact that the likelihood of a pro social response to an emergency is affected by the number of bystanders who are present: as the number of bystanders increases, the probability that anyone bystander will help decreases and the amount of time that passes before help occurs increase" (p 672)

I think there were experiments where it appeared someone was attacked and when only one witness was present, they intervened (~70-80%) but if there were numerous onlookers the %age went right down. But in the same "high witness" situation, if the attacked pointed to an individual and asked for help the chance of intervention was v.high again.


I was going to comment on this but with a slightly different slant. Group behavior is more common than we think. It isn't that we don't want to help, it's wondering why everyone else isn't helping. Do they know something I don't? The best book I've seen on the subject is by Robert Cialdini and it's called the Psychology of Persuasion.

PS: This thread also goes back to my theory of see what they do not what they say. Ask any individual if they'd help and they'll say yes and they will. Then watch what happens when you test what they say. The same thing applies to the integrity issue.

batemanb
05-29-2002, 08:56 PM
When I was still at school, about 15 years old, my friends and I(5 of us) went up to the chip shop for lunch. As we were walking back, a "tough" from one of the school gangs was approaching us, he intentionally walked into one of my friends knocking his lunch all over the floor as he strode past. I called after him, only to be greeted by a torrent of abuse, stupidly, I told him to "come here and say that", he walked right up to me and told me what to do in no uncertain terms. This was long before I had any martial abilities, or any real experience of fights, I was shaking and didn`t know what to do, when it dawned on me, "do you like steak and kidney pudding" I asked, he looked at me like I was stupid. I then took a large scoop of the pie I was eating and smeared it across his face. He spluttered something like "you`re dead" and then ran off, we carried on back to school. About 5 minutes down the road, we hear the sound of running feet and turn to see him returning with 10 or 15 of his gang mates. My "friend", the one that I had just stood up for, immediately crossed the street and legged it for school as fast he could, along with two of the others, they left me and my new best friend to take on the gang (some thanks huh?). After a moment of talking among themselves, the gang leader approachd me and started to swing at me with an umbrella, which fortunately, I caught and pulled out of his hands. I then threw the brolly over the 6ft wall that we were standing next to, only for the gang leader to shriek "that was my dad`s brolly, what am I gonna do?", that kind of defused the situation completely, we left the to it as they tried to figure out how to get the brolly back. I did walk around school for the next 6 months in a state of high anticipation, waiting for them to jump me, but fortunatley they didn`t bother us again.

A female friend of mine came over to England to visit and went off to Paris on her own for a couple of days. She was "met" by a gang of boys on the metro who demanded a "travel tax" of 10 francs. She didn`t have any change so she gave them the smallest note that she had (can`t remember the size but larger than 10 francs). The cheeky b@st@rds had the nerve to say "we only want 10 francs", and gave her change! Fortunately nothing more serious happened.

On a more serious note, a few years back, a friend of mine was walking home late one night and came across a man beating up a girl in an alleyway. It was a pretty bad beating, he was slapping and punching her, and she was screaming with blood on her face. This particular friend is not one to shirk from trouble, so he waded in, grabbed the guy and pulled him off of the girl, punched the guy and knocked him down. Suddenly, the girl goes nuts, jumped on his back and start hitting him, telling him to f#$! off and mind his own business. He dropped her onto the floor and left them to it. After mentioning it to some other friends shortly after, it turns out that this was a regular occurance that the couple indulged themselves in. Each to his own I guess.


I would like to think that I could help someone again if the situation required, but I am not a naive 15 year old anymore. In the instance of the young boy on the subway attacked by a gang, intervening against 20 youths on my own would be a very daunting task. They were obviously all up for it, were they armed?. If I was with a couple of my friends, it may be different, but would still need some thought at the time. Having said that, emergency chain, calling authorities etc would certainly be the first things on my action plan.

I guess the answer really depends on the situation, which can only be determined at the time.

Chocolateuke
05-29-2002, 10:12 PM
ITs all sad.. people dying and being raped in crowds. WHy? But I kinda have half of a half of an answer. At school when there is a fight the kids run the fight and make a circle to cheer them on. I always just hang back cause the security people come in fast and diffuse the situation ( ie take the punks to the office.)

on a more comdeic route one of the bigger seniors for some reason had the urge to hug me. and lift me. the first time he did this i was unaware of it and tried to get out ( sorry im not gay!). people started to call me gay and stuff. The next time he said give me a hug arms wide open, I ran, and run I did! threw my pack out of the way and ran everyone just watched. one of the security people came and asked if everything was alright. the big dude said yeah and took my hand and walked into the crowed. everyone gave me strage lookes for a month before they gave me some slack because the bigger guy got a girl friend and saw he was playing.

why do people watch ( at least at school) becasue they see it as not their problem and they also find it entertaining. But having a girl being raped in a train I think I would have at least tried to call athorites. thats just sick! gotta go do hw and be gloomy.

akiy
05-29-2002, 10:54 PM
Those interested can also look up what happened to Kitty Genovese.

-- Jun

nikonl
05-30-2002, 03:39 AM
Jun: where?

Coincidently, after reading these posts, i came across a similiar situation to me. I was in a bus and 3 guys were harassing a lone girl. I knew i had to intervene if they went overboard. Fortunately, they did not :)

batemanb
05-30-2002, 04:10 AM
Originally posted by nikon
Jun: where?

Coincidently, after reading these posts, i came across a similiar situation to me. I was in a bus and 3 guys were harassing a lone girl. I knew i had to intervene if they went overboard. Fortunately, they did not :)

Just do a search using Google, there are a ton of pages.

shihonage
05-30-2002, 04:33 AM
Originally posted by nikon
Jun: where?

Coincidently, after reading these posts, i came across a similiar situation to me. I was in a bus and 3 guys were harassing a lone girl. I knew i had to intervene if they went overboard. Fortunately, they did not :)

For all you know, while you're fighting the guys, the girl will come behind you and club you on the head with a bottle.

gweeki
05-30-2002, 05:35 AM
Originally posted by nikon
A boy who was attacked on board a crowded MRT train "is upset that no one on the train came forward to stop the assault."

On the other hand, a man died from injuries he sustained while intervening a fight.

What would you do if you witnessed a fight, say, on board a MRT train? Intervene? Watch and do nothing? Call the police? Move to another carriage in the train? Get down the train?

http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/singaporelocalnews/view/8690/1/.html


MRT train = subway train



This issue has indeed went through my mind a few times. It's question of our very own principle, how should we react in this kind of situation arises? It's really depends on the actual situation but you've to be realistic that the boy was confronted by 20 youth. Now, do we or are we confident to handle against this amount of attackers? Frankly, I've yet to come to a conclusion. Still pondering.....:ai:

erikmenzel
05-30-2002, 07:05 AM
Originally posted by shihonage
For all you know, while you're fighting the guys, the girl will come behind you and club you on the head with a bottle.

Kind of reminds me of randori:

Those that stay away or sit at the edge of the mat are NOT the enemy. Those that dont ARE!

nikonl
05-30-2002, 12:04 PM
shihonage, i'm quite certain she won't :)

Erik: i don't quite get what you mean?

Carl Simard
05-30-2002, 02:47 PM
After reading this thread, for sure, I'm quite happy to live in a city without subway!!!

Don_Modesto
05-30-2002, 03:20 PM
Originally posted by nikon
shihonage, i'm quite certain she won't :)

I'm given to understand that domestic squabbles are among the most dangerous for just this reason: Cops stop the husband from beating the wife and she jumps them.

SeiserL
05-30-2002, 05:51 PM
Yes, its called the Karpman Drama Triangle from Transactional Analysis. The three positions are abuser, victim, and rescuer. The rescuer rescues by abusing the abuser, making the abuser now the victim, the victim becomes the rescuer by attacking the rescuer who is now the abuser. Carol Shifflett will have an article about this in her new Aikido book.

Until again,

Lynn
Nidan Tenshinkai Aikido
Lucaylucay Kali JKD

batemanb
05-30-2002, 08:25 PM
Originally posted by shihonage
For all you know, while you're fighting the guys, the girl will come behind you and club you on the head with a bottle.

Originally posted by nikon
shihonage, i'm quite certain she won't

Originally posted by Don_ModestoI'm given to understand that domestic squabbles are among the most dangerous for just this reason: Cops stop the husband from beating the wife and she jumps them.


See my earlier post:)

guest1234
05-30-2002, 11:24 PM
I've said it before, but I'll say it again (sorry:rolleyes:), another reason for the female who is being beaten to defend (verbally or even physically) her abuser is she is trying to avoid his getting any more angry than he already is. My ex- was pretty good at making sure others weren't around before he started on me, but I was just as anxious he not be seen, and not only to hide my embarassment over being 'the kind of wife who makes her husband hit her'.

I knew he hit me if something or someone made him feel bad about himself...and I was extremely invested in not having him feel any worse about himself, as it translated directly into a worse situation for me. Once a man verbally defended me, and I had to wear long sleeves in the Florida summer for weeks afterwards. Once, an Aikidoist demonstrated sankyo on him in a group of us at dinner, ostensibly choosing him randomly, but made a subtle point to him to stop what he was doing to me, not all my friends would look the other way. 24 hours later I was ducking a shovel aimed at my head, and came to the (for me) shocking realization that rather than just hurting me, he might actually kill me.

Women in abusive relationships need to leave them, but the wrong words or actions on the part of a 'rescuer', however well intentioned, can push the abuser into using a gun (they usually own several, mine had 8 or 9) to reassert control and save face. It can also make him think she might actually leave him (as the second fellow did with my ex), which is when the abused wife is most likely to become the murdered wife.

A man beat-up or yelled at or threatened will, once he is again alone, pass that along to his wife (with interest). If you want to rescue an abused wife or girlfriend, make sure the police show up, make sure they arrest him (not just talk to him :disgust: ), and make sure she gets counselling. Otherwise you may just make it all much worse.

nikonl
05-31-2002, 03:19 AM
I'm very very very certain it wasn't a couple squabble as it involves 3 guys. And the girl was quite frightened that she kept talking on her mobile phone trying to pretend nothing is happening. :)

aikido_fudoshin
06-01-2002, 09:07 PM
The most difficult part of this kind of situation is not knowing why its happening. For example, is this guy getting beaten because he killed the attackers brother or is he just an innocent victim. Should we respond to the situation as if the victim is innocent? Should we be concerned more for our own well being in this situation? I believe in every case we should see the victim as innocent since using violence as a means of payback is unacceptable. Even if helping appears to be useless, an attempt should still be made to break up the situation. Whether this attempt involves yelling at the attackers from a distance or an actual physical confrontation, an attempt should be made. What kind of person can look the other way while a woman is being raped!? I think we should use our Aikido training and intervene by trying to redirect at least some of the attackers energy away from the victim. This could take the form of a simple distraction, or at the very least let them know you are contacting the appropriate authorities. As soon as you step up others will be more inclined to give a helping hand aswell.

Im not saying every situation should require you to move in and try to clean house. As stated before, every situation is different. Our own well being is important aswell and there certainly is no point in having two people ending up dead instead of one. I think it is important we make that attempt to redirect the the attackers energy, while keeping your own safety in mind.