Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

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[Marc Abrams]

No walls in my life Marc, I'm just saying it as it is with no bullshit or otherwise. It seems to you that I have a narrow aspect, but believe it or not I am trying to listen to what you have to say, but it seems that maybe you have a narrower aspect than I ?
Nothing wrong in aikido for health, but you already know my slant on that one.
Aikido is either a martial art or it is not. Martial means martial not playing, praying it might happen, but knowing it will happen .....
As for my limitations, I happen to live in the real world and know the truth which in it's way is far more liberating than you can imagine......
My dojo is outside in the real world. My inside dojo is where we experiment, find out what will work and will not work, discard that which does not. That is not to blindly repeat a lie until the truth hits you so hard you will realise that you have trained in vain and wasted an awful lot of time as many are beginning to find out.
Aikido will work, but it will be adapted to look like nothing you do in the dojo. It is as rough as a Badgers Bum as Joe Curran has said, bless his cotton socks!!
Kata practice is not enough. All those that think so, I'm sorry but you are just deluding yourselves and your students......period!! :straightf

Tony:

The nonsense begins when we try to define what a martial art is or isn't. The nonsense begins when we try and define what a real fight is and isn't. The nonsense begins when we try and talk about what we know works and doesn't. They are self-limiting starting points. The more you learn, the more you realize how much more there is to learn. What might work in one situation, utterly fails in others. What we think works, blinds us from finding out what can work more efficiently and better.

You talk about trying to understand where people like myself come from and what we are talking about. We invite you to experience first hand what we do from outstanding people and you either find reasons not to do it, or simply discount it. You cannot have it both ways.

We agree that when it is time for the pedal to hit the metal, what we do does not typically look like what we do in kata practice. Then again, kata practice without bunkai kumite and without a deeper understanding of what is contained within and hidden within kata practice is little more the exercises in motion.

We are all dedicated to the MARTIAL ART of Aikido. We are not deluding ourselves with lies, anymore than we are trying to become invincible in real life.

Marc Abrams

[Tony Wagstaffe]

Tony:

The nonsense begins when we try to define what a martial art is or isn't. The nonsense begins when we try and define what a real fight is and isn't. The nonsense begins when we try and talk about what we know works and doesn't. They are self-limiting starting points. The more you learn, the more you realize how much more there is to learn. What might work in one situation, utterly fails in others. What we think works, blinds us from finding out what can work more efficiently and better.

You talk about trying to understand where people like myself come from and what we are talking about. We invite you to experience first hand what we do from outstanding people and you either find reasons not to do it, or simply discount it. You cannot have it both ways.

We agree that when it is time for the pedal to hit the metal, what we do does not typically look like what we do in kata practice. Then again, kata practice without bunkai kumite and without a deeper understanding of what is contained within and hidden within kata practice is little more the exercises in motion.

We are all dedicated to the MARTIAL ART of Aikido. We are not deluding ourselves with lies, anymore than we are trying to become invincible in real life.

Marc Abrams

Then we do agree on a lot of things, but not all. On those we can agree to disagree. I'm just telling it from my perspective.
Kata is the abc of what we do, whatever persuasion one comes from, whether that may be right or wrong. Adaption is the key to a successful martial art, of that there is no doubt in my mind.
Something that stagnates and fails to move on or adapt will perish...
Sokaku Takeda mentions that the techniques of aiki jujutsu are easy to perform and can be used even by women and children (but the abc has to learned first) The techniques can be easily countered, the reason he would only teach to those in responsible positions as he had that responsibility. Therefore kaeshi or ura waza comes to mind.... Adaption?
The best form of defence is attack, unfortunately it's defining that which is "fair" under the rules of law. The constraints of modern society and law make that almost impossible unless one's assailant has an unfair advantage. Modern or gendai sports aikido/judo makes that possible. MMA even more so in the short term.... but has it's drawbacks as anything else in life.
What is missing from mainstream aikido today is that "risk" factor.
Whether you do a more traditional hard style or hard "sport" style such as Shodokan, of which I am biased, will determine that risk factor. Personally I don't see much difference, except in their applications.
I'm of the opinion that one should practice the hard when young, then progress to the soft as one ages. that is common sense.
My belief is you cannot have one without the other.
The problem I see is, most these days want to go straight to the soft, without the "hard" work that implies. Strangely enough I can perform quite soft aikido, but I can also make it explode to.
That to me is what it's all about, being able to make it explode when you need it most....?

[Tony Wagstaffe]

Nice vid. Uke seems pretty compliant though for all the talk of resistance training in this thread. And just wondering, if this was a video of, say, some Ki aikido practitioner would there be a chorus of derisive comments regarding the cooperative nature of the demonstration?

Ron

Some of it is compliant some of it isn't. Ask the uke's what they felt....
I'll let you guess what was and what wasn't..... Demo videos are very much like that
When the randori shia is taken out as it didn't resemble the kata stuff.....? People don't want to see that?

[john.burn]

Where was all of the 'internal' stuff you've allegedly always been doing Tony? Didn't seen any of that at all, if you've been on the end of it, or spent enough time around it, you should be able to see some elements of it, I don't see anything, how come?

Surely, this internal stuff would be perfect to use when demonstrating "soft 'trick' stuff"?

[sakumeikan]

Where was all of the 'internal' stuff you've allegedly always been doing Tony? Didn't seen any of that at all, if you've been on the end of it, or spent enough time around it, you should be able to see some elements of it, I don't see anything, how come?

Surely, this internal stuff would be perfect to use when demonstrating "soft 'trick' stuff"?

Dear John,
What elements of internal aikido are you looking for?Ukes that fly across the dojo or worse the guys who fall over without being touched.You may not be fond of Tonys aikido but at least he gets stuck in.Are you an expert on internal aikido? If not what makes you such an authority on this subject?Maybe you watch to much stuff on youtube??
Cheers, Joe

[Tony Wagstaffe]

Where was all of the 'internal' stuff you've allegedly always been doing Tony? Didn't seen any of that at all, if you've been on the end of it, or spent enough time around it, you should be able to see some elements of it, I don't see anything, how come?

Surely, this internal stuff would be perfect to use when demonstrating "soft 'trick' stuff"?

I don't look at it as internal but more as whole body core power, which is generated in the hips and a low centre of gravity....

Maybe as people say you can't see it but have to feel it?
My "internal" works different to others....?
To me that is something that works differently from one person to another and should come naturally.... that is inherent within waza itself if applied against resistance.... Common sense if you ask me...

[Tony Wagstaffe]

Been enjoying reading this thread over the last couple of weeks...

I love the idea that to be a serious martial artist one must be prepared to be jumped at every corner and defend yourself in a life and death struggle against vastly superior aggressors (or at least something to that affect).

When you have had someone seriously try to kill you, and I'm talking someone who has taken lives before, you gain a different perspective and respect for the whole process. There is nothing martial in it at all, there is no distance or timing, there is no resistance or any of the guff we like to think is important. The aggressor is trying to gouge your eyes out whilst simultaneously kneeing you in the groin, whilst punching you repeatedly in the kidneys, tearing out hair, scratching skin. Its a wonderfully debased practice.

Your attacker does not let up because you've fallen to the ground or you've stopped resisting. There is no pause in the attack from the first time your head slams against the wall they have you pinned to.

Is this reality? Well yes, I've had this happen to me once. Is it likely to happen to most people in their lifetime? Probably not. Can I train to defend against this kind of aggression? Probably not.

Is my training up to reality? Sure. I avoid fights that I don't have to be involved in, I turn away from people goading me to attack them, I don't travel in areas where I'm likely to encounter such situations.

Can I depend on Aikido to protect me in all circumstances? Not sure. Would I fall back on my Kyokushin background? Possibly.

If only everything were so black and white. You train to suit your personal needs and requirements, you can be a weekend warrior if you want to be, you can practice all day every day.

Do most people stand post at night guarding for the intruder that might come? Do we even need to do this? Coming from an army family of three generations I know many members of my family stalked their respective homes at night and would hunt if they heard the wrong kinds of sounds outside. Despite the fact they knew they didn't encounter what they had expected (and dealt with during war-time) they still did it. Is this type of behaviour realistic?

I don't train with an expectation of being able to apply a technique or to perform in a certain way. My training is entirely centred around keeping moving if the proverbial hits the fan.

If you want to seriously train to reality, throw off the gloves, the style of martial art, the niceties, the rules, pre-conceived notions, everything. Have someone bigger and stronger seriously try and kill you and you have your answer to the OP of whether your Aikido as a Martial Art is up to Reality.

I have.......:straightf

[john.burn]

Dear John,
What elements of internal aikido are you looking for?Ukes that fly across the dojo or worse the guys who fall over without being touched.You may not be fond of Tonys aikido but at least he gets stuck in.Are you an expert on internal aikido? If not what makes you such an authority on this subject?Maybe you watch to much stuff on youtube??
Cheers, Joe

Hi Joe,

Far from it - I'm just working on things in my own club whilst trying to follow a few teachers but not be a copycat, I'm trying to figure out how to get my body to do the things some of their bodies can. I've not felt any Aikido teacher in this country who feels like some of the guys who I like - I mean that from an 'internal' feeling point of view. Hard to explain, but kind of like feeling how the hell did they just do that to me. Mostly I feel (in this country) definite muscling of most techniques on me - every way of course has it's merits and to each his own.

I'm absolutely not wanting to see uke's fly away or fall over without being touched - that would impress me about as much as it would impress you.

I'm afraid that I rarely watch youtube for my Aikido fixes, I usually get out to seminars and train with people as opposed to stomping around a mat telling others that they should try to understand the principles behind the techniques when it's someone not even of their background or 'flavour' of aikido teaching. Ahem, some Scottish chap did that to me once or twice ;) lol.

I'm far from an expert on anything internal, but I do know what I've felt is not something 'normal'. I've trained with quite a few guys in this country, you included (you're the Scottish guy I mentioned above lol) and no-one has given me the same feeling of utter confusion yet. Lot's of pain yes, but not lots of confusion.

I never meant any offense to Tony's aikido, indeed for what it was it looked good, just I was expecting something more from how he was talking in the IS threads. Indeed some of the thumb grabs and wrist manipulations reminded me of my first teacher, brought back a few memories :).

Tony - yes and no, I don't think your internal works any different, I think you're talking about something entirely different which you are calling internal - and that's great for you. But it's not what the other guys are talking about :p .

[jonreading]

A couple posts back I saw something that struck me... In the aikido people I respect and on whom I hold an opinion I have noticed an academic process that includes very basic movement transcending into softer and more subtle movement. Likewise, these people have an understanding of "harder" aikido even if they no longer choose to use it. Even in conversation when I hear these individuals talk they do not advocate that we should not train hard, they advocate that we should find a better way to train hard [that is safer and more productive].

Several months ago I posted a similar thread to discuss what I believe to be not only a problem with our physical aikido (not functioning to exectation as a fighting style) but also our philosophical expectations. I posted the thread because I experienced frustration with several philosophical posts at the time than made implications beyond what I believed to be reasonable.

I think some of my/our frustration with the performance of our physical aikido sprouts from an unreasonable expectation based within our philosophical understanding of the art. For example, if my philosophical basis for training is not combat then it stands to reason that my physical aikido would not need to actually work in combat.

I do not necessarily have a problem with this as long as we express our philosophical beliefs prior to expressing our aikido. Right now, I think we have a lot of aikido that does not work and the practioner retrofits his philosophy to excuse the poor expression of his aikido. Instead of "I do not believe in fighting and I do not practice aikido to fight, here is my aikido that reflects that belief," we get "My aikido does not need to work because I do not believe in fighting." It seems a small thing, but the causal relationship is important because in the latter statement, we have neither functioning aikido nor a stable philosophy. I think the exercise of the question is important because it acts like a compass to help us keep the proper direction in our training.

An old translation of "bu" involves the description of stalling the halberd, the implication of the character as an agent of action to prevent war. A key component of the interpretation being the ability to act to prevent war. I believe this is also a key component to aikido - aikido needs to be able to engage in a dialogue with our partner that sets some hard and fast rules about how uke is going to resolve the conflict.

I think one point of reality that I will assert is that reality is not in a dojo. Reality requires more clear (i.e. simple) communication as to how technique is resolved... I believe this is why collusive aikido is difficult to translate into street technique.

[Tony Wagstaffe]

Hi Joe,

Far from it - I'm just working on things in my own club whilst trying to follow a few teachers but not be a copycat, I'm trying to figure out how to get my body to do the things some of their bodies can. I've not felt any Aikido teacher in this country who feels like some of the guys who I like - I mean that from an 'internal' feeling point of view. Hard to explain, but kind of like feeling how the hell did they just do that to me. Mostly I feel (in this country) definite muscling of most techniques on me - every way of course has it's merits and to each his own.

I'm absolutely not wanting to see uke's fly away or fall over without being touched - that would impress me about as much as it would impress you.

I'm afraid that I rarely watch youtube for my Aikido fixes, I usually get out to seminars and train with people as opposed to stomping around a mat telling others that they should try to understand the principles behind the techniques when it's someone not even of their background or 'flavour' of aikido teaching. Ahem, some Scottish chap did that to me once or twice ;) lol.

I'm far from an expert on anything internal, but I do know what I've felt is not something 'normal'. I've trained with quite a few guys in this country, you included (you're the Scottish guy I mentioned above lol) and no-one has given me the same feeling of utter confusion yet. Lot's of pain yes, but not lots of confusion.

I never meant any offense to Tony's aikido, indeed for what it was it looked good, just I was expecting something more from how he was talking in the IS threads. Indeed some of the thumb grabs and wrist manipulations reminded me of my first teacher, brought back a few memories :).

Tony - yes and no, I don't think your internal works any different, I think you're talking about something entirely different which you are calling internal - and that's great for you. But it's not what the other guys are talking about :p .

Ask any judoka where their power comes from... they will say the hips and legs, ask any karateka where where power comes from, they will say the hips and legs. Ask any boxer where their power comes from, they will say the hips and legs. Develop those core parts by proper conditioning and you will have natural power. Practice striking with all those thoughts in mind and you will develop power. Nothing secret about that.....

[john.burn]

Ask any judoka where their power comes from... they will say the hips and legs, ask any karateka where where power comes from, they will say the hips and legs. Ask any boxer where their power comes from, they will say the hips and legs. Develop those core parts by proper conditioning and you will have natural power. Practice striking with all those thoughts in mind and you will develop power. Nothing secret about that.....

I really don't get why you can't just admit that their might actually be something in all this stuff that you don't know. As Marc said "What you think that you know impedes with you learning more."

I mean, you've been offered the chance to get out and feel someone who has the goods, did you accept the invitation? Nope. Tells me a lot about you, and pretty much all I need to know. I know's what I know and all that.:hypno:

There's more to it than stating it's just hip and leg power. And no one said it was secret, it's hidden in plain sight, didn't you get the memo?

[Tony Wagstaffe]

I really don't get why you can't just admit that their might actually be something in all this stuff that you don't know. As Marc said "What you think that you know impedes with you learning more."

I mean, you've been offered the chance to get out and feel someone who has the goods, did you accept the invitation? Nope. Tells me a lot about you, and pretty much all I need to know. I know's what I know and all that.:hypno:

There's more to it than stating it's just hip and leg power. And no one said it was secret, it's hidden in plain sight, didn't you get the memo?

Maybe what I have is hidden in plain sight? I'm not doing all the bitching........? Ask my ukes what they think.... I'm sure they won't lie to you.
Lets see it and then we can make our minds up......It's a known factor when trying to "sell" something.... Like our tonic water is better than yours? Add a bit of secrecy and you have a good recipe for success..... coca cola comes to mind ?....
You have got have what someone else hasn't I have to buy that....:confused: :hypno:

[Ketsan]

During a real fight (self defence) only gross motor movements are possible!

.

Depends on your psychological state.

"Bushido is in being crazy to die; 50 men could not defeat such a man."

Scaring someone trying to get killed is a non-starter. That person will therefore be relaxed and able to use all their training whereas the other guys are restricted to gross motor movements and thus loose their head to the crazy person.

[john.burn]

Maybe what I have is hidden in plain sight? I'm not doing all the bitching........? Ask my ukes what they think.... I'm sure they won't lie to you.
Lets see it and then we can make our minds up......It's a known factor when trying to "sell" something.... Like our tonic water is better than yours? Add a bit of secrecy and you have a good recipe for success..... coca cola comes to mind ?....
You have got have what someone else hasn't I have to buy that....:confused: :hypno:

Tony, keep your wig on mate, at no stage did I say your Aikido was crap, at no stage did I suggest your uke's were tanking anything for you so I do not need to ask them how it felt. I actually said I thought the video was fine, I just expected I'd see something more instead of the 'normal' Aikido due to your own self inflating excellence in all things Aikido and internal. I made the suggestion that what you refer to as internal is, after viewing your video, definitely not what the others are referring to and in return you spit your dummy out :rolleyes: . Good luck with that, typical response from you and what I would expect to see.

What is it you want to see exactly? There's enough footage around of some of these guys. I'm not one of them and have never claimed to be... I'm just trying to get my foot in the door with this stuff, simple as that.

Seems to me you love to add sarcastic comments to other peoples posts and videos but would appear to be beyond reproach with your own. Typical. Kettle, Black, Pot, Calling and all that.

[Tony Wagstaffe]

Tony, keep your wig on mate, at no stage did I say your Aikido was crap, at no stage did I suggest your uke's were tanking anything for you so I do not need to ask them how it felt. I actually said I thought the video was fine, I just expected I'd see something more instead of the 'normal' Aikido due to your own self inflating excellence in all things Aikido and internal. I made the suggestion that what you refer to as internal is, after viewing your video, definitely not what the others are referring to and in return you spit your dummy out :rolleyes: . Good luck with that, typical response from you and what I would expect to see.

What is it you want to see exactly? There's enough footage around of some of these guys. I'm not one of them and have never claimed to be... I'm just trying to get my foot in the door with this stuff, simple as that.

Seems to me you love to add sarcastic comments to other peoples posts and videos but would appear to be beyond reproach with your own. Typical. Kettle, Black, Pot, Calling and all that.

I don't have a wig, and I have no hair....... except all that is growing out of every orifice other than my head....
Yes and I see there is a lot of hip and leg manipulation, sometimes subtle and not always visible. Body connection I can see and one can develop that from throwing the discuss, shot, hammer, javelin....
It's nothing new John, just a new package that's all....
Tell you what mate, how about bitching someone else. Or would you like to be mine? Me ? Like water off a ducks back......:D ;)
From a rum, bum and baccy man....

[john.burn]

I don't have a wig, and I have no hair....... except all that is growing out of every orifice other than my head....
Yes and I see there is a lot of hip and leg manipulation, sometimes subtle and not always visible. Body connection I can see and one can develop that from throwing the discuss, shot, hammer, javelin....
It's nothing new John, just a new package that's all.....

LOLOL, yeah, I kinda realised you didn't have too much after I said that :D

I think that this new packaging has been floating around in its current form for a while, just us Aikido lot never picked up on it too much. Seems to crop up and disappear every five years or so... more people seem to be wanting to explore some of it now, we'll see... If I ever get it to some degree or other I'm happy about we can have a friendly exchange some time perhaps ;) . You show me yours and I'll show you mine lol. I aint got it yet though, lol.

[Tony Wagstaffe]

LOLOL, yeah, I kinda realised you didn't have too much after I said that :D

I think that this new packaging has been floating around in its current form for a while, just us Aikido lot never picked up on it too much. Seems to crop up and disappear every five years or so... more people seem to be wanting to explore some of it now, we'll see... If I ever get it to some degree or other I'm happy about we can have a friendly exchange some time perhaps ;) . You show me yours and I'll show you mine lol. I aint got it yet though, lol.

ooooh sailor! ;)

[Ketsan]

Tony:

The nonsense begins when we try to define what a martial art is or isn't. The nonsense begins when we try and define what a real fight is and isn't. The nonsense begins when we try and talk about what we know works and doesn't. They are self-limiting starting points. The more you learn, the more you realize how much more there is to learn. What might work in one situation, utterly fails in others. What we think works, blinds us from finding out what can work more efficiently and better.

You talk about trying to understand where people like myself come from and what we are talking about. We invite you to experience first hand what we do from outstanding people and you either find reasons not to do it, or simply discount it. You cannot have it both ways.

We agree that when it is time for the pedal to hit the metal, what we do does not typically look like what we do in kata practice. Then again, kata practice without bunkai kumite and without a deeper understanding of what is contained within and hidden within kata practice is little more the exercises in motion.

We are all dedicated to the MARTIAL ART of Aikido. We are not deluding ourselves with lies, anymore than we are trying to become invincible in real life.

Marc Abrams

Wouldn't that just make saying we are dedicated to the martial art of Aikido a non-sense statement? If you can't define martial art how do you know Aikido is a martial art? If anyone asked what you meant the only response you could honestly give was that you didn't know.

[Tony Wagstaffe]

It wouldn't hurt some to read this. Tomiki Shihan was a scholar as well as a budoka.....

http://judoinfo.com/new/alphabetical-list/judo-history/135-on-jujutsu-and-its-modernization-by-kenji-tomiki

And yes I am biased... But I like traditional to....

[sakumeikan]

Hi Joe,

Far from it - I'm just working on things in my own club whilst trying to follow a few teachers but not be a copycat, I'm trying to figure out how to get my body to do the things some of their bodies can. I've not felt any Aikido teacher in this country who feels like some of the guys who I like - I mean that from an 'internal' feeling point of view. Hard to explain, but kind of like feeling how the hell did they just do that to me. Mostly I feel (in this country) definite muscling of most techniques on me - every way of course has it's merits and to each his own.

I'm absolutely not wanting to see uke's fly away or fall over without being touched - that would impress me about as much as it would impress you.

I'm afraid that I rarely watch youtube for my Aikido fixes, I usually get out to seminars and train with people as opposed to stomping around a mat telling others that they should try to understand the principles behind the techniques when it's someone not even of their background or 'flavour' of aikido teaching. Ahem, some Scottish chap did that to me once or twice ;) lol.

I'm far from an expert on anything internal, but I do know what I've felt is not something 'normal'. I've trained with quite a few guys in this country, you included (you're the Scottish guy I mentioned above lol) and no-one has given me the same feeling of utter confusion yet. Lot's of pain yes, but not lots of confusion.

I never meant any offense to Tony's aikido, indeed for what it was it looked good, just I was expecting something more from how he was talking in the IS threads. Indeed some of the thumb grabs and wrist manipulations reminded me of my first teacher, brought back a few memories :).

Tony - yes and no, I don't think your internal works any different, I think you're talking about something entirely different which you are calling internal - and that's great for you. But it's not what the other guys are talking about :p .
Dear John,
I got the impression that it was me you were commenting on.Looks like I trod on your toes a bit.Not my intention.As far as stomping around the mat is concerned I have over the past few years had bother from a near fatal car crash coupled with a mild heart attack . I am still not fully recovered.Had I been so maybe we could have had a more rewarding encounter.I never suggested you were offending Tony.Tony being a shrinking violet is not going to shed a tear over minor differences of opinion.I dont always agree with Tony either as it happens. All I was asking you was to give me some idea of what you were looking for in the way of Internal Aikido.
For myself I have met various Sensei who one might call internal aikidokas Eg Yamaguchi, Sekiya, Tamura Sensei .
So , John, dont take the hump or make it personal. I know I am not everyones cup of cocoa. Having said that given the opportunity you might find me a charming chap.Hope you are well, Joe.

[john.burn]

Dear John,
I got the impression that it was me you were commenting on.Looks like I trod on your toes a bit.Not my intention.As far as stomping around the mat is concerned I have over the past few years had bother from a near fatal car crash coupled with a mild heart attack . I am still not fully recovered.Had I been so maybe we could have had a more rewarding encounter.I never suggested you were offending Tony.Tony being a shrinking violet is not going to shed a tear over minor differences of opinion.I dont always agree with Tony either as it happens. All I was asking you was to give me some idea of what you were looking for in the way of Internal Aikido.
For myself I have met various Sensei who one might call internal aikidokas Eg Yamaguchi, Sekiya, Tamura Sensei .
So , John, dont take the hump or make it personal. I know I am not everyones cup of cocoa. Having said that given the opportunity you might find me a charming chap.Hope you are well, Joe.

Hi Joe,

Not too much offense taken. When my first teacher, Tom Moss passed away I must admit your email about him (which I still have) changed my view on you somewhat :). It was quite a long time ago anyways, it was the year Tom was teaching on the BAB course, mind you then there was the year later on one of the Yoshinkan classes and you bowed to me, I was about to bow back when Tom grabbed me saying something like 'not today you don't' :D

And yes, you are a charming chap having spoken to you at various BAB meeting over the years, I used to look after their website.

[Marc Abrams]

Wouldn't that just make saying we are dedicated to the martial art of Aikido a non-sense statement? If you can't define martial art how do you know Aikido is a martial art? If anyone asked what you meant the only response you could honestly give was that you didn't know.

Alex:

When you are done playing word games, please let me know so that we can engage in an honest discussion.

marc abrams

[john.burn]

All I was asking you was to give me some idea of what you were looking for in the way of Internal Aikido.
For myself I have met various Sensei who one might call internal aikidokas Eg Yamaguchi, Sekiya, Tamura Sensei.

Ah, yes, to answer your question...

Sadly I never got to meet Yamaguchi so it'd be Saotome sensei and Ikeda sensei in Aikido terms, I've also been on the mat with Ushiro sensei (karate guy) a few times too. Certainly for me, Saotome and Ikeda are the 'internal' Aikido gold standard IMHO.

[sakumeikan]

Hi Joe,

Not too much offense taken. When my first teacher, Tom Moss passed away I must admit your email about him (which I still have) changed my view on you somewhat :). It was quite a long time ago anyways, it was the year Tom was teaching on the BAB course, mind you then there was the year later on one of the Yoshinkan classes and you bowed to me, I was about to bow back when Tom grabbed me saying something like 'not today you don't' :D

And yes, you are a charming chap having spoken to you at various BAB meeting over the years, I used to look after their website.
Dear John ,
I really was quite saddened when Moss Sensei passed away.
I thought he was a really nice man and very sincere in what he was doing in Aikido.Maybe its the Glasgow in me that occasionally gets up some peoples noses. Glaswegians tend to call a spade a shovel-we are so backward about going forward.Anyway not to worry a little bit of internet blarney makes my day. Cheers, Joe.

[Ron Tisdale]

a) what makes you think that we haven't read it?

b) Yes, he was quite a scholar when it came to things budo. Not surprising really...in many ways aikido can be a thinking man's MA / Budo / Sport whatever you choose to call it, and how ever you choose to practice it.

c) I would have loved to both train under him and to have picked his brain. For the memories alone!

Best,
Ron

It wouldn't hurt some to read this. Tomiki Shihan was a scholar as well as a budoka.....

http://judoinfo.com/new/alphabetical-list/judo-history/135-on-jujutsu-and-its-modernization-by-kenji-tomiki

And yes I am biased... But I like traditional to....

[Tony Wagstaffe]

Dear John ,
I really was quite saddened when Moss Sensei passed away.
I thought he was a really nice man and very sincere in what he was doing in Aikido.Maybe its the Glasgow in me that occasionally gets up some peoples noses. Glaswegians tend to call a spade a shovel-we are so backward about going forward.Anyway not to worry a little bit of internet blarney makes my day. Cheers, Joe.

That's true Joe, my brother in law comes from Prestwick, about 30 miles down the road from Glasgee.... He's married to my wife's elder sister....
He must be 66 now, likes rugby and played for the army in his time, did 22 years and was a warrant officer to boot.... He don't like shovels!! Were both as mad as March Hares (not bunnies :D)....
He'll drink me under the table anytime.... Bottomless legs is his problem, but what a lad!! Trouble is when he's had quite a bit, I've a job to understand him as he goes broad on me...:D

[Tony Wagstaffe]

Alex:

When you are done playing word games, please let me know so that we can engage in an honest discussion.

marc abrams

Who's bitching who here....:D

Time to get the ribbons out...... Whooooopeee!! I'll get me yard broom... Henry and Derek ( if he's reading this) can get the disco gear sorted out!! Don't forget yer braces Derek!! Henry don't forget the Jo Anna sisters.... Anyone sent an invite to tea cosy?
I'll perform Zulu warrior, matelot style while Marc & Alex..... whip round with the collection box!!
Aydilla zumbe zumba zumba.... aydilla zumba zumba zai... Hold me down you zulu warrior...... chief chief chief yeeaaah!!
What do ya reckon Joe?.....:D

[Hellis]

Who's bitching who here....:D

Time to get the ribbons out...... Whooooopeee!! I'll get me yard broom... Henry and Derek ( if he's reading this) can get the disco gear sorted out!! Don't forget yer braces Derek!! Henry don't forget the Jo Anna sisters.... Anyone sent an invite to tea cosy?
I'll perform Zulu warrior, matelot style while Marc & Alex..... whip round with the collection box!!
Aydilla zumbe zumba zumba.... aydilla zumba zumba zai... Hold me down you zulu warrior...... chief chief chief yeeaaah!!
What do ya reckon Joe?.....:D

Tony

You have been warned about bringing humour / humor to the Aikiweb forum..:( Tea cosy's and loving ones Joe is serious stuff here, Ribbons are also considered as dangerous weapons if one gets tangled in them whilst dancing with Jo.....

Henry Ellis
Aikido in MMA
http://rik-ellis.blogspot.com/

[Tony Wagstaffe]

Aaaawww Sensei, Just as I was having a bit of fun.....:(

[Hellis]

Never..... But they have on the phone...:D
Strange thing is I have never seen them since

Tony

Same here :D

I have had hate nony mouse emails, during the ``controversy `` I even had my own dedicated hate website by one of JP's students, yet, in 55 yrs I have never had a ```visit `` or a phone call..it is so much more cosy behind the computer screen....There are some gutless warriors out there.

Henry Ellis
Aikido in MMA
http://rik-ellis.blogspot.com/

[Tony Wagstaffe]

Tony

Same here :D

I have had hate nony mouse emails, during the ``controversy `` I even had my own dedicated hate website by one of JP's students, yet, in 55 yrs I have never had a ```visit `` or a phone call..it is so much more cosy behind the computer screen....There are some gutless warriors out there.

Henry Ellis
Aikido in MMA
http://rik-ellis.blogspot.com/

With respect Sensei, that is an insult to the word "warrior"
We should rename them gutless worriers.....

[Hellis]

With respect Sensei, that is an insult to the word "warrior"
We should rename them gutless worriers.....

Tony
""" We should rename them gutless worriers """

I humbly stand corrected.:straightf

Henry Ellis
Aikido in MMA
http://rik-ellis.blogspot.com/

[sakumeikan]

Tony

You have been warned about bringing humour / humor to the Aikiweb forum..:( Tea cosy's and loving ones Joe is serious stuff here, Ribbons are also considered as dangerous weapons if one gets tangled in them whilst dancing with Jo.....

Henry Ellis
Aikido in MMA
http://rik-ellis.blogspot.com/
Henry ,
I am sure Tony is becoming fond of me but I think your statement about loving ones JOE is expecting too much too soon from our internet connections.However maybe there is some hope for me?If I am not careful I may have to wear Tonys handbag/high heels and a hat saying' Kiss me quick/Hello Sailor '.Or perhaps my favourite {courtesy of Dick Emery] Oh you are awful -but I like you!!!
Cheers, Joe.

[markyboy64]

Depends on your psychological state.

"Bushido is in being crazy to die; 50 men could not defeat such a man."

Scaring someone trying to get killed is a non-starter. That person will therefore be relaxed and able to use all their training whereas the other guys are restricted to gross motor movements and thus loose their head to the crazy person.

Ok!!

How many people jumped into a karate stance when they saw the planes hit the twin towers?answer none!!!!!

They did a natural flinch response/fright reaction.It does not matter how you train,it is impossible not to do the fright reaction...it is inbuilt...hard wired.

[markyboy64]

Really? I would say that I am sorry to disagree with you on your points, but I am not sorry. Can't vouch for how you train or who you train with, but I would say that if you come to those conclusions, I certainly would not train in the arts that you mentioned. Just my 2 cents ;)

Marc Abrams

If you did train those arts you would understand what the internal martial arts are about!

Physics and natural movement!!!!
You must build your house from the ground up....not from sky hooks!

If you walk,run, play rugby,football,tennis,OR fight..your weight is on one leg or the other...if it's on two you have STOPPED!

Physical balance is the most important attribute you can train!
This is why I think Aikido and alot of other arts are taught back to front.

If you have more balance than your opponent,he will find himself off balance...it's is just pure physics(chi,or ki)...or better still the finesse!!

Taiji and bagua have lofty names ..the supreme ultimate and the art of overkill for a very good reason.And neither train any techniques,but they don't half hit hard.

[markyboy64]

Sure, we generally want to use the larger muscle groups (e.g. legs' muscles generate more power by themselves than fingers') but both seem pertinent to "real" self defense...particularly if you consider whole-body self-defense or defense involving firearms. While they're a small part of the overall force generation, the fingers and hands can add the needed edge in real self-defense and, I presume, can convey the whole-body force sought after in internals.
I agree that the simpler techniques are generally the most effective. The fewer operations needed to displace your attacker the better...and from what I've seen casually, at least in the one-on-one setting, I think MMA shows this tendancy toward a handful of basic self-defense maneuvers which typically win. This doesn't mean the other techniques are irrelevent though.
Also, I'm no expert so I'm probably missing something key, but my impression is the internal arts would describe themselves more as whole body balance, not single-leg balance.
...Now I'm curious if that's what is meant when describing one-sided weighting?
Basically just guesses, but there's my 2 bits.
Take care,
Matt

Matt,

All human movement starts in the legs(sports,martial arts) ect.Obviously!.

Taiji term double weighted??
Double weighted is just that...a 50/50 stance.
A F..ing no no!! IF you have good single leg balance it is very difficult for someone to throw you.You are not where they thought you were.Just like lifting something,you find the balance point first.but if that balance point keeps moving it is hard to find the centre(hara,dantien).
This is what is ment by moving from your centre....NOT your waist.
And probably why many Aikidoka's move like Robby the robot.

Moving your balance point is like trying to lift a bag of water.Difficult.
As you move from one foot to the other(never ever stop moving)someone trying to throw you,push you,lock you up has got problems.because you won't stay still.

Internal arts are all based on balance and proprioception,so you learn in abstract fasion,and carry on learning.

If you need to defend yourself,you will attack the two primary pressure points,automatically without thinking.

[mathewjgano]

Matt,

All human movement starts in the legs(sports,martial arts) ect.Obviously!.
Hi Mark,
I don't think this is always so obvious.

Taiji term double weighted??
Double weighted is just that...a 50/50 stance.
A F..ing no no!!
I must have confused the two. I thought I rememebered some folks saying single-side weightedness is bad somehow, but I have no experience with taiji so there ya go.

I stand corrected on that...but still absolutely no place for fine motor skills?
Thanks for the reply.
Take care,
Matt
p.s. sorry David. I'm done with my questions.

[C. David Henderson]

As a polite suggestion, please consider starting a new thread in "Non-aikido martial traditions" where you can pursue this discussion without further driving this dog of a thread -- which is shedding stars regularly in ratings -- further off track and through the mud.

Just a suggestion.

[Tony Wagstaffe]

Henry ,
I am sure Tony is becoming fond of me but I think your statement about loving ones JOE is expecting too much too soon from our internet connections.However maybe there is some hope for me?If I am not careful I may have to wear Tonys handbag/high heels and a hat saying' Kiss me quick/Hello Sailor '.Or perhaps my favourite {courtesy of Dick Emery] Oh you are awful -but I like you!!!
Cheers, Joe.

There is always hope for you Joe :D Including all the Master Class Dinosaurs that lurk for a quick meal on this forum........ I'm up for membership to that club if you would be so kind to recommend me.....
Do I have to supply my own braces? Or will you confer that great honour upon me....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJxGi8bizEg
I promise to wear my bell bottoms and cloth cap upon ceremony, I will also bear my trusty bristly yard broom so you will dub me junior dinosaur to your majesties.....:)

[Tony Wagstaffe]

As a polite suggestion, please consider starting a new thread in "Non-aikido martial traditions" where you can pursue this discussion without further driving this dog of a thread -- which is shedding stars regularly in ratings -- further off track and through the mud.

Just a suggestion.

:D

[Ketsan]

Ok!!

How many people jumped into a karate stance when they saw the planes hit the twin towers?answer none!!!!!

They did a natural flinch response/fright reaction.It does not matter how you train,it is impossible not to do the fright reaction...it is inbuilt...hard wired.

How many people practice mindfulness? How many people regularly meditate? A buddhist monk can set himself on fire and not flinch. "When the mind is mastered even the flames seem cool"

[Ketsan]

Alex:

When you are done playing word games, please let me know so that we can engage in an honest discussion.

marc abrams

It's not word games. From the time of Socrates it's been accepted that you can't have an honest discussion without first defining the terms to be used.

[Tony Wagstaffe]

How many people practice mindfulness? How many people regularly meditate? A buddhist monk can set himself on fire and not flinch. "When the mind is mastered even the flames seem cool"

I would love to see you try that Alex.....:hypno:

Tell you what I'll supply the petrol......

[markyboy64]

How many people practice mindfulness? How many people regularly meditate? A buddhist monk can set himself on fire and not flinch. "When the mind is mastered even the flames seem cool"

Yea!! I bet they only do it once though!:dead:

[Tony Wagstaffe]

Sounds like it's barby time!! Who's supplying the Foster's cobbers? :D

[Hellis]

Yea!! I bet they only do it once though!:dead:

I doubt they would do it the once at UK petrol prices, then again, I am sure that the price would bring a grimace to his calm expression :)

Henry Ellis
Positive Aikido
http://aikido-books.blogspot.com/

[Ketsan]

I would love to see you try that Alex.....:hypno:

Tell you what I'll supply the petrol......

Considering the way petrol prices are going that's quite generous! :D

[markyboy64]

I doubt they would do it the once at UK petrol prices, then again, I am sure that the price would bring a grimace to his calm expression :)

Henry Ellis
Positive Aikido
http://aikido-books.blogspot.com/

Yes but! he may of thought it was a bit pricey for the schelloin temple!! :D

[Tony Wagstaffe]

Considering the way petrol prices are going that's quite generous! :D

Are you supplying tickets to this bizarre spectacle?
I hope there will Fosters premium lager to go with the barby....:D

[markyboy64]

Are you supplying tickets to this bizarre spectacle?
I hope there will Fosters premium lager to go with the barby....:D

Christopher lee is busy building the Whicker Man for added effect!
Just need a calm person to get inside!:D

[Mark Freeman]

Christopher lee is busy building the Whicker Man for added effect!
Just need a calm person to get inside!:D

Where are you going to find one of those around here?:D

[Tony Wagstaffe]

C'mon Alex lets get back to reality.... Have you had any harrowing experiences?

[Ketsan]

C'mon Alex lets get back to reality.... Have you had any harrowing experiences?

Been in a few interesting situations, yeah.

[Hellis]

C'mon Alex lets get back to reality.... Have you had any harrowing experiences?

Tony

The fact that Alex is from Birmingham should be harrowing enough ?

Henry Ellis
Aikido Articles
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/

[Tony Wagstaffe]

Tony

The fact that Alex is from Birmingham should be harrowing enough ?

Henry Ellis
Aikido Articles
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/

Oooh yes Sensei velly velly hallowing....;)

[Tony Wagstaffe]

Been in a few interesting situations, yeah.

C'mon Alex don't be shy, lets hear a couple....:)

[Ketsan]

C'mon Alex don't be shy, lets hear a couple....:)

The most reccent was about a year ago just before christmas. So myself and the other two 1st kyus from where I train were up to our usual antics when a fight breaks out in the bar.

The manager runs into the middle of it and breaks it up and we help him clear the place, all good, back to the bar. So these two groups of idiots are outside arguing and they start shoving and it looks like they're going to start fighting again. The manager, for reasons known only to himself, then walks in between these two groups and starts trying to calm things. We're talking like 15-20 people with the manager in the middle yelling at everyone.

Well this doesn't look like it's going to end well so we go and loiter by the door, just incase. Sure enough one guy takes a swing at the manager and it connects and it all kicks off and us three go charging in to get the manager out. Turns out he can handle himself so between the four of us we managed to convince them all to leave via the liberal application of atemi, nage waza and a little shime waza, mostly of the irimi nage, tenchi nage, sumi otoshi, koshi nage kind but nothing so clean as to warrant being called a technique but none the less effective.

Then we got cleaned up, went back to the bar and carried on drinking.

[Gorgeous George]

The most reccent was about a year ago just before christmas. So myself and the other two 1st kyus from where I train were up to our usual antics when a fight breaks out in the bar.

The manager runs into the middle of it and breaks it up and we help him clear the place, all good, back to the bar. So these two groups of idiots are outside arguing and they start shoving and it looks like they're going to start fighting again. The manager, for reasons known only to himself, then walks in between these two groups and starts trying to calm things. We're talking like 15-20 people with the manager in the middle yelling at everyone.

Well this doesn't look like it's going to end well so we go and loiter by the door, just incase. Sure enough one guy takes a swing at the manager and it connects and it all kicks off and us three go charging in to get the manager out. Turns out he can handle himself so between the four of us we managed to convince them all to leave via the liberal application of atemi, nage waza and a little shime waza, mostly of the irimi nage, tenchi nage, sumi otoshi, koshi nage kind but nothing so clean as to warrant being called a technique but none the less effective.

Then we got cleaned up, went back to the bar and carried on drinking.

Did someone try to hit you with a stick, you blocked it - full-on - with the palm of one hand and then threw them?
If not, you've still not proven yourself as a badass ninja-warlock samurai, who's a totally bitching rock-star from Mars.

[Ketsan]

Did someone try to hit you with a stick, you blocked it - full-on - with the palm of one hand and then threw them?
If not, you've still not proven yourself as a badass ninja-warlock samurai, who's a totally bitching rock-star from Mars.

Yes. I have done shomen uchi irimi nage incorrectly with uke holding a bokken. :D

[George S. Ledyard]

Hi to Tony from his "aiki bunny" friends, Marc and George, in America
http://www.aikieast.com/aiki_bunnies.JPG

[phitruong]

Hi to Tony from his "aiki bunny" friends, Marc and George, in America
http://www.aikieast.com/aiki_bunnies.JPG

careful with those carrots. in the movie "shoot 'em up", the guy was pretty vicious with the carrots. ;)

[Howard Popkin]

You guys are too funny :)

[George S. Ledyard]

You guys are too funny :)

Thought you and Toby would like this one particularly...

[Marc Abrams]

Hey, What's up Doc? I resemble that Re-Marc.....

Marc Abrams

[sakumeikan]

Hi to Tony from his "aiki bunny" friends, Marc and George, in America
http://www.aikieast.com/aiki_bunnies.JPG
Hi guys,
Looks like you are both taking up Carrott Te. Joe.

[Basia Halliop]

When rabbits fight (and they do fight each other, being quite territorial) they mostly box, kick, or use edged weapons like teeth or nails, FYI...

Although admittedly they're good at jumping.

[JO]

Never underestimate the aiki-bunny:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcxKIJTb3Hg

[Basia Halliop]

I once had a rather traumatic experience involving a rabbit I was babysitting after an operation she'd had, into whom had to get a syringe full of medicine without injuring either of us.

Once you've faced off with an angry frightened rabbit trying to take on two human 'predators' each more than 20 times her weight... you might be inclined to see the term 'aikibunny' in a different light!

Although there were a lot of failed attempts initially, I was proud that eventually we managed it without any blood (on our side) or broken bones (on her side).

They can be feisty and incredibly slippery little creatures if they are scared and cornered... and if you want to learn about zanshin, awareness of ma-ai and timing, and speed of reflexes, to be like a rabbit is a lofty goal indeed.

So I say, if people call you an aikibunny, embrace the term and use it proudly :).

[Patrick Hutchinson]

What are those, organic carrots?
Luxury.
Here in England we eat raw parsnips, straight out of ground with dirt still on them, and no, we don't cut tops off. And if there's no parsnips we have a mouthful of dirt and chew on that.

[Marc Abrams]

What are those, organic carrots?
Luxury.
Here in England we eat raw parsnips, straight out of ground with dirt still on them, and no, we don't cut tops off. And if there's no parsnips we have a mouthful of dirt and chew on that.

I love the term "organic." How many people have ever eaten inorganic carrots? No doubt made out of petrol. Is that organic dirt that you eat in England, or is that made out of synthetic material as well.

Regards,

marc abrams

[sakumeikan]

I love the term "organic." How many people have ever eaten inorganic carrots? No doubt made out of petrol. Is that organic dirt that you eat in England, or is that made out of synthetic material as well.

Regards,

marc abrams
Dear Marc,
We might eat organic dirt in England , you guys in N.Y eat Burgers /bagels [definitely synthetic material ]. Cheers, Joe.

[Basia Halliop]

I love the term "organic." How many people have ever eaten inorganic carrots? No doubt made out of petrol. Is that organic dirt that you eat in England, or is that made out of synthetic material as well.

I've always LOVED the fact that in chemistry, the word 'organic' as in 'organic chemistry' or 'organic compounds' refers to the family of carbon-based compounds... Which means that in practice 'organic chemistry' deals MAINLY with petrochemicals, pharmaceuticals, synthetic fertilizers and herbicides....

[Ketsan]

I've always LOVED the fact that in chemistry, the word 'organic' as in 'organic chemistry' or 'organic compounds' refers to the family of carbon-based compounds... Which means that in practice 'organic chemistry' deals MAINLY with petrochemicals, pharmaceuticals, synthetic fertilizers and herbicides....

Can we not mention that branch of the sciences please. Bad memories.

[Marc Abrams]

Can we not mention that branch of the sciences please. Bad memories.

Organic Chem. = Premed Weeder.... ;)

It is so funny to look at the different definitions of "organic" Basia has provided the most exact definition of the word "organic", but I think that most people would not find petroleum products in the organic section of their local grocer.... Frankly speaking, I am still looking for the killer rabbit in the meats section :D

Marc Abrams

[Don Nordin]

I have been thinking about this post for a while, and I want to ask this question, is it the Aikido that needs to be up to reality or is it really the mind that needs to be up to reality. I would argue its the mind, and the mind drives the Aikido.

[Janet Rosen]

Organic Chem. = Premed Weeder.... ;)

Hereabouts, a Premed Weeder is a guy with a medical marijuana card who hasn't fired up yet in the morning :D

[gregstec]

Hi to Tony from his "aiki bunny" friends, Marc and George, in America
http://www.aikieast.com/aiki_bunnies.JPG

priceless guys! :D

Greg

[George S. Ledyard]

I have been thinking about this post for a while, and I want to ask this question, is it the Aikido that needs to be up to reality or is it really the mind that needs to be up to reality. I would argue its the mind, and the mind drives the Aikido.

This is very Chuang-tze-esque...

[lbb]

Once you've faced off with an angry frightened rabbit trying to take on two human 'predators' each more than 20 times her weight... you might be inclined to see the term 'aikibunny' in a different light!

Why? A pejorative doesn't have to have anything to do with reality. If your goal is to disparage others, the truth won't stop you.

[Nicholas Eschenbruch]

Why? A pejorative doesn't have to have anything to do with reality. If your goal is to disparage others, the truth won't stop you.

Which was sort of demonstrated by the failure of my aikibunny-thread to instill a sense of irony or even self-reflection in certain people's minds, I suppose...

[Ketsan]

I have been thinking about this post for a while, and I want to ask this question, is it the Aikido that needs to be up to reality or is it really the mind that needs to be up to reality. I would argue its the mind, and the mind drives the Aikido.

Aikido is the path to leading the mind to reality. If the advertising is to be believed Aikido will lead you to replicate O-Sensei's enlightenment; the ultimate realisation of reality. Aikido drives the mind to reality; so goes the hypothesis.

On that basis I no longer seriously consider Aikido to be a martial art. Nor do I consider myself to really be studying Aikido. For all their skill no-one in my lineage could reasonably be thought of as a spiritual teacher; they're all purely, I would say, bugeisha.

In fact if we consider the do arts like Kendo, Judo, Aikido to have a spirtual dimension and jutsu arts to be purely about fighting skills then I would have to say that what I am doing is Aikijutsu because my training is not about reality in an over arching metaphysical sense; my training is about reality in rather more narrow sense.

O-Sensei said, "If you have not linked yourself to true emptiness, you will never understand Aikido." I very much doubt anyone in my lineage except perhaps Chiba would have a clue what true emptiness is never mind how Aikido keiko links one to it. I myself only know, intellectually, what true emptiness is because I study Buddhism and I doubt that one could deduce that everything is devoid of independent existance from studying what I practice under the lable of Aikido.
No-one who is interested in metaphysics would ordinarily go to a martial arts class to learn metaphysics or to seek enlightenment.

So on that basis I'd also say that the Aikibunnies are the Aikidoka but not martial artists and the rest of us are martial artists but not Aikidoka.

[mathewjgano]

If the advertising is to be believed Aikido will lead you to replicate O-Sensei's enlightenment; the ultimate realisation of reality.
Hi Alex,
I know you said "if we are to believe the advertising," and I'm probably just being nit-picky, but I prefer to say it "can help" lead to replicate O Sensei's state of enlightenment (whatever that may have actually been).

No-one who is interested in metaphysics would ordinarily go to a martial arts class to learn metaphysics or to seek enlightenment.

So on that basis I'd also say that the Aikibunnies are the Aikidoka but not martial artists and the rest of us are martial artists but not Aikidoka.
Well I'm probably not very ordinary, but that's more or less why I came to this martial art. I do think the two tend to neglect each other (not just in Aikido), but I get the sense that there are a lot of folks who straddle this dichotomy pretty well. It's probably rather convenient for me to mention my own teacher, but I get the sense he and his more dedicated students (I wish I could include myself as an example of this) are very good examples of people who are both martially inclined AND metaphysically inclined. We're rare in the fact that we're a jinja, but I think a lot of people share a similar intent with regard to metaphysical and martial function.
Particularly when we consider metaphysics in conjunction with Natural Religion, we can see how very physically-oriented practices might in fact be very metaphysical in nature...when the mind is applied in that regard.
Take care,
Matt

[Don Nordin]

Actually my initial point was not referring to the spiritual side of Aikido at all, it was referring to the state of mind that one needs to be in to survive an aggressive encounter. If your mind is not into discharging the aggressor with all your being then your Aikido skills, or boxing skills or Judo, whatever... take your pick, will not be as effective as it can be.

[Alberto_Italiano]

Hi Attilio.

Regadless of the ban mention you make, which i know nothing about, parhaps it may be conforting for you knowing that, about what you say, I am all on your side.

I came from an agonistic boxing background (over 20 years ago) and I recently started to discover a passion for Aikido.

What you say has been already noticed by everybody who has a competitive background in martial Arts or fighting: most Aikido dojos are totally unrealistic.

You have to live with the fact, Attilio. You won't convert them.

This is not, actually, their fault to be sure.
If, like in my case, you have a boxing background, you grew used to get hit on your face (right on your face) by straight punches thrown at you with the intention to incapacitate you and, possibily, to cause brain damages.
This happens in such a minority of cases, that boxing is still today practiced and boxing matches arranged.

However, who has no actual fighting background, simply has no idea what a fight may be. So, as a start, they are all misled in their idea that the more it is fictional the more it is safer. In fact, the more it is fictional the more it is dangerous, because you will discover that your aikido does NOTHING that one very same day, unique in your life, where you needed it MOST.
They will discover it then.

We are not speaking here of throwing a sankyo on a drunkard. We are speaking of what you speak: someobody in full possession of his strength who has the intention of mauling you physically, immediately, brutally.
Most aikidokas, facing this, would learn their aikido will do nothing - and the little that could have done something, will be unusable because fear will take seize of them immediately and they will learn then that if you can't manage fear, there is no martial art background that may be usable.

The only way not to fear is: being used to fighting.
Only experience brings confidence. You will know that you are expereinced when these two things will happen to you:

1) You will know what your opponent is going to do by merely looking into his eyes. You will know this INFALLIBLY. Till then, you're NOT expereinced enough. The only times you will be wrong, will be the times you get knocked down - which happens VERY rarely in these cases!
THIS will bring TRUE confidence.
2) You will know what to do next as a chess player can foresee all the combinations - only you will be much faster.

If you cannot practice in suitable dojos, and yet you are combat oriented you have only 2 options, unless you find a dojo combat oriented

1) You train by yourself, with katas (arrange also a ladder with acquagym tubes coming out from it: katas will come better agains those, and the tubes won't be more static than too many ukes we meet...)
2) you find like minded PARTNERS, not masters, and you train with them. The only things you will have to be cautious about are projections - you won't do complete kotegaeshis :-)

If you can afford only number 1, then you are exploring a brand new venture: how hard do you need to practice, in order to awaken in yourself your inner Matser?
You will have to discover this by yourself.

[Alberto_Italiano]

ps could not fully edit my previous note so I add this Post Scriptum here:

the attacks in your "Animal day" are very dangerous for an unexperienced fighter, but are (believe me) totally ridiculous for an experienced one.

In my boxing gym, 20 years ago, whoever woudl have attacked in that way would have found himself knowcked down, if not out, within 2 seconds - the time of recolletting calmness, aiming, and meeting his face with a straight right.

Those attacks will have full success against anybody who, facing an attack or an atemi, closes his eyes. If you attack that way somebody who does not close his eyes, he can keep you at bay by mere combinations of jab/right/jab/right/jab/right: 6 times. Step back, repeat.

What do they do in the video? Against the first attack, the guy closes his eyes (lowers his head, same thing: he sees no more what's coning in); against the second, he uses a hook - but those attacks need straihgt blows to make the attacker bounce back.

[Ketsan]

Actually my initial point was not referring to the spiritual side of Aikido at all, it was referring to the state of mind that one needs to be in to survive an aggressive encounter. If your mind is not into discharging the aggressor with all your being then your Aikido skills, or boxing skills or Judo, whatever... take your pick, will not be as effective as it can be.

"Without me my rifle is useless, without my rifle I am useless."

The question is therefore about the nature of Aikido. Is it a rifle; does it function as a martial art? If a shodan Judoka requests and is granted a sparring match with a yondan Aikidoka and the Aikidoka looses should his students continue with him? Would it still be reasonable to say that the yondan is a skilled Aikidoka?
In martial terms what should we expect from Aikido in various situations?

[mathewjgano]

Actually my initial point was not referring to the spiritual side of Aikido at all, it was referring to the state of mind that one needs to be in to survive an aggressive encounter. If your mind is not into discharging the aggressor with all your being then your Aikido skills, or boxing skills or Judo, whatever... take your pick, will not be as effective as it can be.

Well, when you talk about the mind comprehending reality sufficiently, metaphysics does often enter the topic I think...particularly when you get into looking to O Sensei as some measure of what a mind could/should look like, which seems a valid approach to me.
That said, I agree: if you're not mentally strong, your strong body will probably falter at some point...which is why when the topic of self-defense comes up I almost always point first to the importance of having a good mind/awareness above a good fighting style.
I believe the monks who set themselves ablaze to protest the Vietnam War were recently mentioned as an example of how simply practicing mental exercises can indeed create calm behavior in the midst of very extreme circumstances. A strong mind can endure and remain flexible enough to process/evaluate and then respond (the unavoidable physical requirements of the mind-body). To me, this is the very definition of personal strength.

[Alberto_Italiano]

Since I am still online for a bit I take the liberty of adding a couple of considerations:

@Axel: very well said, yet do you know how a Zen master would have answered to a pupil asking those questions? :-)

@Matthew: you're right, it's the mind. If you can keep your eyes open against incoming and landing blows and you can still look straight into the face a charging opponent, you will be surprised at how infinitely more effective you will be in defending yourself.
Actually, I personally believe that a combat oriented style is more geared, possibily, to teach you this attitude and ability rather than a technique or another.

[Alberto_Italiano]

Question of the day:
did you ever fall when doing kotegaeshi against your opponent?

If you didn't, you're not training hard enough ahahahah :-)

[Don Nordin]

Alberto very well said.
Matthew I completely agree.

[ninjaqutie]

http://www.aikieast.com/aiki_bunnies.JPG

I bet you two "docile" aikibunnies can turn into a bunny fiercer then the one in Monty Python in the blink of an eye.

I actually believe this is one of you.........
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/24/Rabbitattack.jpg/300px-Rabbitattack.jpg

[Ketsan]

Since I am still online for a bit I take the liberty of adding a couple of considerations:

@Axel: very well said, yet do you know how a Zen master would have answered to a pupil asking those questions? :-)

@Matthew: you're right, it's the mind. If you can keep your eyes open against incoming and landing blows and you can still look straight into the face a charging opponent, you will be surprised at how infinitely more effective you will be in defending yourself.
Actually, I personally believe that a combat oriented style is more geared, possibily, to teach you this attitude and ability rather than a technique or another.

The Zen masters argument only really applies if you believe there is no difference between life and death though.

[Alberto_Italiano]

Aikido is an ambition.

If your concern is fighting, you should not look for aikido in the first place. If you're serious about self-defense, I strongly recommend boxe as the real thing. No thai, no full contact or other flavors - plain boxing.
Or, as said, a gun (which however leaves you with VERY little options, and a significant possibility to end in jail or shoot yourself on your foot).

However in order to boxe, you need to pass medical tests, and no gym would accept you even as a sparring punching bag if you're above 30 and, even worst, if you're 20+ no gym will take you seriously or invest on you (their mistake to be sure, but many of them gain money by winning matches so they reason in a very cynical manner you see...). They may just let you loitering around, probably.

Sadly, this means that the chances for a person to develop real combat skills are near to zero.
There is no way to express the full extent of how regrettable this is, for there is nothing (simply nothing) in life more formative than fighting. If you take it seriously, it strongly structures your personality - and will take away from you any violent attitude, if any.

Aikido is, probably, the most ambitious way to fight. I don't know why many persons choose aikido and then transform it in that pointless dance Attilio refers to. The funny thing is, they even consider themselves dangerous - I heard many times guys saying that their aikido is so lethal that they could break and arm or wrist if they don't do it as carefully as they do. How delusional.
Obviously enough, they have never been (not even) in a dilettanti boxing match (a trivial instance http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rmmBX0J5S1Y ) or they would not consider physical clash that lethal thing they seem to believe it could be. People hit each other on their faces everyday in boxing gyms, and no carnage has ever been reported - at most a few broken noses!

So what I want to say is that if you choose Aikido, clearly you have not chosen it in order to defend yourself in the most effective way. You have chosen it in order to savour the challenge of testing yourself, of seeing whether you may one day come to dominate a physical clash using that sophisticated aikido stuff that is utterly unusable unless you're a God at it.

I heard once in a dojo the 'sensei' lecturing that your opponents most of the time won't be experienced - so you won't need to be very skillful.
Once the lesson finished, I quit that dojo.

For, Attilio, you're right: practicing aikido without thinking about the real thing, is a contradiction. You better go jogging then, or swimming, or do pilates. I don't care whether I may meet or not a really dangerous opponent: it just makes no sense training me for anything different, that is.

So, what can be said?
You're right, most dojos will NEVER educate you to real combat in the least - though they may instill in you the false confidence that you have learned what to do. That wrong and utterly baseless confidence, one day, may maim or kill you.

At the same time, Aikido is so sophisticated, it is clearly a challenge that you pose to yourself: you want to dominate chaos with a super-refined Art.

To achieve that, Attilio - you may need a lifetime and yet never succeed.

Train hard, train harder, then train even harder again. If dojos don't let you, train alone. Train alone in the dark, harder. Train alone harder and harder. Then train again, harder.
You have to hope one day, as a gift of the gods or an act of grace, something will leap out of your deepest mind and you will feel that fatal "click" that will give to you the only black belt worth having.
For as I said, there comes a point in fighting arts when you know INFALLIBLY what's going to happen in a fight before it happens. Until then, you're not experienced.
It is my _assumption_ aikido too may serve such a dish. It is my choice to try this adventure, to see whether also by aikido I can one day have the same sensation boxe gave to me after years.

Aikido is an ambition. Human beings are too weak for so great an ambition.
Months ago I was disconcerted like you.
You have to understand - it's all in the mind. It's you and Aikido. No dojos, no senseis, only you and the Art.

If you want to fight with Aikido, you have to reconcile yourself with the fact that dojos that will let you face the real thing don't exist, and that, if you're serious about a MArtial Aikido, you're alone.

Now: go, and train.
Harder.
You don't even need a dojo - old Zen monks had satoris (illumination) while sitting on charnel grounds. The infamous hut is enough. A "real" samurai doesn't need frills and panoramic views ahahahah LOL

For it's all in your mind - delusions and determination both.

It has to become for you a way of being - a "Budo". One of your Dominant Thoughts.

Train hard. Alone, with partners, in idle dojos or less idle ones if you ever find one - wherever you can.
If you want to use aikido to face the real thing, you want something very very very ambitious.

Think. Train. Breathe. Envision. Fight, if you can.

Train harder. You're looking for that "click". I think Aikido gives it only to very, very few.

Certainly, not to me.

[Ketsan]

Aikido is an ambition.

If your concern is fighting, you should not look for aikido in the first place. If you're serious about self-defense, I strongly recommend boxe as the real thing. No thai, no full contact or other flavors - plain boxing.
Or, as said, a gun (which however leaves you with VERY little options, and a significant possibility to end in jail or shoot yourself on your foot).

However in order to boxe, you need to pass medical tests, and no gym would accept you even as a sparring punching bag if you're above 30 and, even worst, if you're 20+ no gym will take you seriously or invest on you (their mistake to be sure, but many of them gain money by winning matches so they reason in a very cynical manner you see...). They may just let you loitering around, probably.

Sadly, this means that the chances for a person to develop real combat skills are near to zero.
There is no way to express the full extent of how regrettable this is, for there is nothing (simply nothing) in life more formative than fighting. If you take it seriously, it strongly structures your personality - and will take away from you any violent attitude, if any.

Aikido is, probably, the most ambitious way to fight. I don't know why many persons choose aikido and then transform it in that pointless dance Attilio refers to. The funny thing is, they even consider themselves dangerous - I heard many times guys saying that their aikido is so lethal that they could break and arm or wrist if they don't do it as carefully as they do. How delusional.
Obviously enough, they have never been (not even) in a dilettanti boxing match (a trivial instance http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rmmBX0J5S1Y ) or they would not consider physical clash that lethal thing they seem to believe it could be. People hit each other on their faces everyday in boxing gyms, and no carnage has ever been reported - at most a few broken noses!

So what I want to say is that if you choose Aikido, clearly you have not chosen it in order to defend yourself in the most effective way. You have chosen it in order to savour the challenge of testing yourself, of seeing whether you may one day come to dominate a physical clash using that sophisticated aikido stuff that is utterly unusable unless you're a God at it.

I heard once in a dojo the 'sensei' lecturing that your opponents most of the time won't be experienced - so you won't need to be very skillful.
Once the lesson finished, I quit that dojo.

For, Attilio, you're right: practicing aikido without thinking about the real thing, is a contradiction. You better go jogging then, or swimming, or do pilates. I don't care whether I may meet or not a really dangerous opponent: it just makes no sense training me for anything different, that is.

So, what can be said?
You're right, most dojos will NEVER educate you to real combat in the least - though they may instill in you the false confidence that you have learned what to do. That wrong and utterly baseless confidence, one day, may maim or kill you.

At the same time, Aikido is so sophisticated, it is clearly a challenge that you pose to yourself: you want to dominate chaos with a super-refined Art.

To achieve that, Attilio - you may need a lifetime and yet never succeed.

Train hard, train harder, then train even harder again. If dojos don't let you, train alone. Train alone in the dark, harder. Train alone harder and harder. Then train again, harder.
You have to hope one day, as a gift of the gods or an act of grace, something will leap out of your deepest mind and you will feel that fatal "click" that will give to you the only black belt worth having.
For as I said, there comes a point in fighting arts when you know INFALLIBLY what's going to happen in a fight before it happens. Until then, you're not experienced.
It is my _assumption_ aikido too may serve such a dish. It is my choice to try this adventure, to see whether also by aikido I can one day have the same sensation boxe gave to me after years.

Aikido is an ambition. Human beings are too weak for so great an ambition.
Months ago I was disconcerted like you.
You have to understand - it's all in the mind. It's you and Aikido. No dojos, no senseis, only you and the Art.

If you want to fight with Aikido, you have to reconcile yourself with the fact that dojos that will let you face the real thing don't exist, and that, if you're serious about a MArtial Aikido, you're alone.

Now: go, and train.
Harder.
You don't even need a dojo - old Zen monks had satoris (illumination) while sitting on charnel grounds. The infamous hut is enough. A "real" samurai doesn't need frills and panoramic views ahahahah LOL

For it's all in your mind - delusions and determination both.

It has to become for you a way of being - a "Budo". One of your Dominant Thoughts.

Train hard. Alone, with partners, in idle dojos or less idle ones if you ever find one - wherever you can.
If you want to use aikido to face the real thing, you want something very very very ambitious.

Think. Train. Breathe. Envision. Fight, if you can.

Train harder. You're looking for that "click". I think Aikido gives it only to very, very few.

Certainly, not to me.

I'd dispute that. Aikido is stupid simple what's highly complex is the way the simplicity is taught. There's a lot of beating around the bush in the way Aikido is taught but when you get down to the nuts and bolts of what is actually taught it's rather unsophisticated.

[Ketsan]

Those attacks will have full success against anybody who, facing an attack or an atemi, closes his eyes. If you attack that way somebody who does not close his eyes, he can keep you at bay by mere combinations of jab/right/jab/right/jab/right: 6 times. Step back, repeat.



Or you do what the BJJ guys do and just enter in low, only instead of going to the ground with it you get a body lock pick/clinch and irimi nage him from there. Or sling him over your shoulder and then drop/slam him into the floor. Jobs a good 'un.

This is why I got out of striking arts; if you can't deck the guy with one punch he will get hold of you and there is no defence for being picked up. It's not like you can air sprawl. I got fed up of Sensei demonstrating this fact and decided to join the class.

And this is why I like Aikido so much. The kata are complex and quite limited but the applications for someone with a bit of imagination are legion and the applications are often quite simple.

[markyboy64]

I'd dispute that. Aikido is stupid simple what's highly complex is the way the simplicity is taught. There's a lot of beating around the bush in the way Aikido is taught but when you get down to the nuts and bolts of what is actually taught it's rather unsophisticated.

Alex,you have hit upon something very true!!

Not just Aikido,but Taiji,bagua,Eckey Thump,all taught(mostly)back to front.

The reason why judoka's have excelled at Aikido,better than Aikidokas themselves,is down to mainly one thing!!!

BALANCE!

If you train for a high degree of dynamic balance,you can learn very quickly any technique(natural movement) from any art,and mix them up so they become no technique!
that's is what internal arts are...your own!!!

This twenty year technique idea is pure bollocks.
How many olympic swimmers,gymnasts,took that long to become good!

From a baby onwards we naturally learn through natural trial and error.Think riding bikes,climbing trees ect.

People can teach you techniques till the cows come home,but they can't teach you physical balance(purely internal).

Techniques are at best 1% of your art! 80% is balance,body unity follows along with proprioception,and working with gravity is what give you power.then it becomes very sophisticated and can always be improved along your life long martial journey!

Obviously you become more balanced practicing techniques.
But that is the backward slooooow way!! Plus you're thinking!making learning even slooooweeeer!

This why many masters,remain the master,instead of the pupil becoming the master,which can be done in months NOT years!

Food for thought maybe!!

[Marc Abrams]

This why many masters,remain the master,instead of the pupil becoming the master,which can be done in months NOT years!

Food for thought maybe!!

Interesting hypothesis! Of course I believe it to be nonsense. Kindly show me ANY Judoka who have become like Mfume Sensei in a couple of months........ Okay, for that matter, show me ANY modern day Judoka who moves like he did.

Marc Abrams

[markyboy64]

Interesting hypothesis! Of course I believe it to be nonsense. Kindly show me ANY Judoka who have become like Mfume Sensei in a couple of months........ Okay, for that matter, show me ANY modern day Judoka who moves like he did.

Marc Abrams

I re-read my post!

Don't think I mentioned 2 months!!
Although two months of choreography,which is what most Aikido is,would be a very good start.

Koiche tohe struggled with a cameraman untrained in any art,because the cameraman didn't know he was not supposed to resist.In other words he didn't make a good uke.

Obviously there are people with natural talent,and will be good at anything.

In 1954 there was a handful of sub four minute milers.Every other good club runner is knocking on that door now.So not just natural talent but the right training!

Don't know who Mfume sensei is but if he moves with grace and power,it is because of superior balance.
If you have more balance than your opponent you can do anthing you like to him.

In fact arn't ki exercises, balance through Aikido moves?Answer I know so.It is there PRIMARY function. Ground fighting is the same.Granted different balance points(hip,back,butt ect) never the less balance.

If your balance is less than what it can be,your power is frittered away.Like cracking a whip but letting go of the handle just before the crack.They call that limp noodle taiji. Infact you are the handle not the whip.

Taiji and bagua are famous for,twisting,turning,Yielding,fast flexible footwork,all to do will balance.
The key is single leg strength/balance work not techniques.
Good balance does not take years to improve.
A few minutes a day brings big gains relatively quickly.

Didn't they say Jigoro Kano was like fighting an empty Jacket.
Abbe sensei,a master of several arts.Either he did ten hours a day training for years or "Perhaps" something else.

Mark.

[Demetrio Cereijo]

Don't know who Mifune sensei is

When he was young:
Pic1 (http://judoforum.com/index.php?app=core&module=attach&section=attach&attach_rel_module=post&attach_id=11883), Pic2 (http://betterjudo.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/MifuneBack.jpg), Pic3 (http://betterjudo.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/MifuneBody.jpg) & Clip (http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x5n19w_mifune-kyuzo-dan-5-contre-3_sport)

When he was old:
Clip (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFXbuszijCM)

[Ketsan]

I re-read my post!

Don't think I mentioned 2 months!!
Although two months of choreography,which is what most Aikido is,would be a very good start.

Koiche tohe struggled with a cameraman untrained in any art,because the cameraman didn't know he was not supposed to resist.In other words he didn't make a good uke.

Obviously there are people with natural talent,and will be good at anything.

In 1954 there was a handful of sub four minute milers.Every other good club runner is knocking on that door now.So not just natural talent but the right training!

Don't know who Mfume sensei is but if he moves with grace and power,it is because of superior balance.
If you have more balance than your opponent you can do anthing you like to him.

In fact arn't ki exercises, balance through Aikido moves?Answer I know so.It is there PRIMARY function. Ground fighting is the same.Granted different balance points(hip,back,butt ect) never the less balance.

If your balance is less than what it can be,your power is frittered away.Like cracking a whip but letting go of the handle just before the crack.They call that limp noodle taiji. Infact you are the handle not the whip.

Taiji and bagua are famous for,twisting,turning,Yielding,fast flexible footwork,all to do will balance.
The key is single leg strength/balance work not techniques.
Good balance does not take years to improve.
A few minutes a day brings big gains relatively quickly.

Didn't they say Jigoro Kano was like fighting an empty Jacket.
Abbe sensei,a master of several arts.Either he did ten hours a day training for years or "Perhaps" something else.

Mark.

It's not balance. Kokyu and push tests won't help you ride a bike. You won't get the ghost feeling from good balance; that's something that has to be worked on and it's mostly to do with the elbow as far as I can see. Don't ask me to explain it; I don't fully understand it myself.

[Hellis]

When he was young:
Clip (http://judoforum.com/index.php?

When he was old:
[URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFXbuszijCM)

When he was old and still amazing to watch everytime I see these old gems. appreciated.

Henry Ellis
Kenshiro Abbe
http://kenshiroabbe.blogspot.com/

[markyboy64]

It's not balance. Kokyu and push tests won't help you ride a bike. You won't get the ghost feeling from good balance; that's something that has to be worked on and it's mostly to do with the elbow as far as I can see. Don't ask me to explain it; I don't fully understand it myself.

Alex, without balance you have nothing at all!

As they say "you cannot fire a cannon from a canoe" as well as from terra firma!

[markyboy64]

It's not balance. Kokyu and push tests won't help you ride a bike. You won't get the ghost feeling from good balance; that's something that has to be worked on and it's mostly to do with the elbow as far as I can see. Don't ask me to explain it; I don't fully understand it myself.

After watching the clip guys,I rest my winning case,superior BALANCE,Body unity and gravity,is what you have witnessed!

All human movement,techniques or methods,all come from simple single leg drills,and never once did he stay still(always keep moving) and never was he double weighted!!

This skill is not unique to martial arts,sports too!!

More food for thought!

[Ketsan]

Alex, without balance you have nothing at all!

As they say "you cannot fire a cannon from a canoe" as well as from terra firma!

Yes but that doesn't make what we're talking about balance.

[markyboy64]

Yes but that doesn't make what we're talking about balance.

If you practice single leg drills,your power will skyrocket.
You will have balance where others don't.

You will gain naturally bagua's natural supreme footwork,and strike with a lot of power.

Techniques will become secondry,because your subconsious brain will do the thinking for you,you learn much ,much faster,because your teaching "yourself" natural body skills and movements,not rote mechanical movements like a alot of broke back mountain karate man dancing,but very powerful skills.

[Ketsan]

After watching the clip guys,I rest my winning case,superior BALANCE,Body unity and gravity,is what you have witnessed!

All human movement,techniques or methods,all come from simple single leg drills,and never once did he stay still(always keep moving) and never was he double weighted!!

This skill is not unique to martial arts,sports too!!

More food for thought!

Actually the fact that he's moving about so much...........that's the opposite of what I'm talking about. If you've got "body unity" you don't need to move all that much, you use your body rather than movement. Everything can be done in two or three square metres bearing in mind that uke and tori probably take up much of that space.

[dps]

Alex,you have hit upon something very true!!

Not just Aikido,but Taiji,bagua,Eckey Thump,all taught(mostly)back to front.

The reason why judoka's have excelled at Aikido,better than Aikidokas themselves,is down to mainly one thing!!!

BALANCE!

If you train for a high degree of dynamic balance,you can learn very quickly any technique(natural movement) from any art,and mix them up so they become no technique!
that's is what internal arts are...your own!!!

This twenty year technique idea is pure bollocks.
How many olympic swimmers,gymnasts,took that long to become good!

From a baby onwards we naturally learn through natural trial and error.Think riding bikes,climbing trees ect.

People can teach you techniques till the cows come home,but they can't teach you physical balance(purely internal).

Techniques are at best 1% of your art! 80% is balance,body unity follows along with proprioception,and working with gravity is what give you power.then it becomes very sophisticated and can always be improved along your life long martial journey!

Obviously you become more balanced practicing techniques.
But that is the backward slooooow way!! Plus you're thinking!making learning even slooooweeeer!

This why many masters,remain the master,instead of the pupil becoming the master,which can be done in months NOT years!

Food for thought maybe!!

Actually in Aikido balance is taught alot ,if you take alot of ukemi.

dps

[markyboy64]

Actually the fact that he's moving about so much...........that's the opposite of what I'm talking about. If you've got "body unity" you don't need to move all that much, you use your body rather than movement. Everything can be done in two or three square metres bearing in mind that uke and tori probably take up much of that space.

Yes I know what you're saying! but his bodyweight is constantly in flux,great for fighting!

having watch it,that little guy could do it in a telephone box,perfect bagua footwork,which is the same as Aikido's,but rarely trained exclusively.That I know of!

[Ketsan]

Yes I know what you're saying! but his bodyweight is constantly in flux,great for fighting!

having watch it,that little guy could do it in a telephone box,perfect bagua footwork,which is the same as Aikido's,but rarely trained exclusively.That I know of!

Body weight constantly in flux? How so?

[markyboy64]

Actually in Aikido balance is taught alot ,if you take alot of ukemi.

dps

You are not taught balance David,only" you" can teach it to yourself.

Proprioception comes to mind!

The ground fighting in the internal arts is the same as stand up fighting,no grappling,just much more dangerous," serious injuries",just different balance points.Nasty! fighting

[sakumeikan]

Interesting hypothesis! Of course I believe it to be nonsense. Kindly show me ANY Judoka who have become like Mfume Sensei in a couple of months........ Okay, for that matter, show me ANY modern day Judoka who moves like he did.

Marc Abrams

Dear Marc.
The statement above about anyone moving like Mifune Sensei in modern day judo i[quote] to be frank is nonsense. Mifune Sensei is/was unique inasmuch he is Mifune.No one else in the universe can be /or will be like Mifune Sensei physically , mentally , in any way.
Are you seriously saying that Anton Geesink, Toshiro Daigo\ Neil Addams/Yamashita are not up to Mifune Sensei standards?How do you rate Kenshiro Abbe Sensei, do you think he was good /bad at Judo?How can you compare a rose to a buttercup ?They are both beautiful and complete in their own right.Suffice to say that Mifune Sensei was a great judoka as are the other men mentioned herein.
You are like so many others being judgemental.Was Frank Sinatra a better singer than Elvis? Can you not just accept the fact that both these men were unique in their own right?The same applies to Mifune Sensei and the others.
Cheers, Joe.

[chillzATL]

Koiche tohe struggled with a cameraman untrained in any art,because the cameraman didn't know he was not supposed to resist.In other words he didn't make a good uke.

That's not accurate at all. Tohei had strict limitations put upon him by Ueshiba...

[kironin]

That's not accurate at all. Tohei had strict limitations put upon him by Ueshiba...

Beat me to it. ;)

Jeez, this discussion was settled back in the 90's. Internet, round and round.

[Alberto_Italiano]

I'd dispute that. Aikido is stupid simple what's highly complex is the way the simplicity is taught. There's a lot of beating around the bush in the way Aikido is taught but when you get down to the nuts and bolts of what is actually taught it's rather unsophisticated.

It is very true. It is simple. You have actually 6 techniques, all the rest is transition.

Let me explain better this point, then.
A few decades ago when I started my boxing training, it all seemed rather simple. It is an impression still today you can have seeing dilettantis on the ring. You see them fighting and you think: well, that's not difficult.

Then, after a few weeks the first time I had to face an oppone nt on the ring came - That was not yet an official match.

I could not hit him.
And he was no champion, only a guy who had 20 official matches on his shoulders.

I took a lot of blows for 2 rounds, without being able to hit him even _once_. It was a very humiliating and sobering experience for me: I understood that experience makes the whole difference and that those simple things that you see (can you envision something simpler than thoriwng a jab?) were not simple in the least.

Months later I was able to hit him. Why? Because I knew what would come next. I could take the blows, I was no longer startled. I knew that if he is throwing hooks I have an instant where, while lowering to dodge, I can raise and throw jab and right.
This simple thing, finding the right instant to get in his guard - it is not something that you can explain: you just know that you have an instant and space for that, you know that your punches can be fast and straight (you will be surprised to see how many beginners throw slanted direct blows that are utterli uneffective because they are scared).
You know that he can step back, you know that you can jump forward and that while you do he can throw his direct blows so you are ready to dodge your head slightly to make his incoming blows slide on your cheek and cross them with yours.

This simple thing - this incredibly simple thing, is incredibly difficult to make when facing an experienced opponent. And of couse any Martial approach that is not geared towards facing a fight-savvy opponent is not really Martial.

So yes, aikido is incredibly simple. Also boxing is, even more.

But when you are under the thunderstorm, nothing is simple anymore.
If then you want to place a nikkyo on a charging bull showering you with a tempest of direct blows, you need to be a God at it.

That is my point.
To answer Attilio, defending yourself with Aikido is an insane idea. The only reason one pursues it is that s/he has the ambition of trying to do it the difficult way.
And it's a very difficult one.

Human beings may like a challenge. :-)

[Ketsan]

It is very true. It is simple. You have actually 6 techniques, all the rest is transition.

Try zero. There are no techniques in Aikido. Aikido is the technique.


So yes, aikido is incredibly simple. Also boxing is, even more.

But when you are under the thunderstorm, nothing is simple anymore.
If then you want to place a nikkyo on a charging bull showering you with a tempest of direct blows, you need to be a God at it.

Yes you would need to be a God at it. You would also be willingly choosing a nigh impossible solution over an extreamly simple one. You would in fact be trying to show boat.
Personally I pick strikers up and dump them. You can duck under hooks so can Aikidoka. Aikidoka can clinch too and we've got nice powerful hips so with a single snap the boxer is on the floor.
Why would anyone try to put nikkyo on a boxing punch?



That is my point.
To answer Attilio, defending yourself with Aikido is an insane idea. The only reason one pursues it is that s/he has the ambition of trying to do it the difficult way.
And it's a very difficult one.

Human beings may like a challenge. :-)

It's more like people have no clue about Aikido and so they assume that an Aikidoka would do something insane like try to counter a jab with nikkyo because they don't know enough about Aikido realise the possibilites of Aikido.

[markyboy64]

That's not accurate at all. Tohei had strict limitations put upon him by Ueshiba...

I am sorry,but Tohei struggled!!!! Maybe his Ki was low that day!

Patterned training leads to failure!

And besides it was an impromptu act!!

[kironin]

I am sorry,but Tohei struggled!!!! Maybe his Ki was low that day!

Patterned training leads to failure!

And besides it was an impromptu act!!

You have no clue what you are talking about.
<sigh>

[gregstec]

I am sorry,but Tohei struggled!!!! Maybe his Ki was low that day!

Patterned training leads to failure!

And besides it was an impromptu act!!

I am with Craig's on this, you have no clue!

Tohie was outweighed probably by double - he was not put down, but the other guy was on a couple of occasions. To me, that is what true Aikido would look like in a true combative encounter - it is not about the picture perfect form of a technique, it is about the application of principles and concepts - to me, Tohei appeared to be playing with this guy - for those that do impromptu randori in your training, this is exactly what it looks like, not pretty, but effective if done right.

Greg

[markyboy64]

You have no clue what you are talking about.
<sigh>

Don't judge me! by your own shoddy standards!! :D

[markyboy64]

I am with Craig's on this, you have no clue!

Tohie was outweighed probably by double - he was not put down, but the other guy was on a couple of occasions. To me, that is what true Aikido would look like in a true combative encounter - it is not about the picture perfect form of a technique, it is about the application of principles and concepts - to me, Tohei appeared to be playing with this guy - for those that do impromptu randori in your training, this is exactly what it looks like, not pretty, but effective if done right.

Greg

With respect I think your knowledge of the internal art can be written on the back of a postage stamp!:o

[gregstec]

With respect I think your knowledge of the internal art can be written on the back of a postage stamp!:o

Well that was certainly a mature and professional response - thanks for sharing...

[Janet Rosen]

With respect I think your knowledge of the internal art can be written on the back of a postage stamp!:o

Putting a smilie on it doesn't make it a joke. Can we please avoid ad hominen attacks between people who clearly haven't touched each other on the mat much less had an actual in-depth conversation about their training?

[gregstec]

I am with Craig's on this, you have no clue!

Tohie was outweighed probably by double - he was not put down, but the other guy was on a couple of occasions. To me, that is what true Aikido would look like in a true combative encounter - it is not about the picture perfect form of a technique, it is about the application of principles and concepts - to me, Tohei appeared to be playing with this guy - for those that do impromptu randori in your training, this is exactly what it looks like, not pretty, but effective if done right.

Greg

Let me add some clarification to this post. First, it was not my intention to insult Mr. Ackrill with the comment: " he has no clue" If he took offense, I apologize. I was simply endorsing Craig's comment in the context of what Mr. Ackrill posted specific to the Tohie/cameraman clip and not what he has previously written elsewhere in this thread - actually, I concur about the importance of balance, but that really is just one part of the total equation.

As mentioned, my focus was his comments on just the clip and I still stand behind my comments in the above post about what was going on between Tohei and the camera guy.

Greg

[matty_mojo911]

My first post here.
I've been a cop for about 15 years, trainined Aikido for about the same, have a Nidan in a Hard Karate Style - anyway.
I've been in so many scraps/fights I've lost count, none I start, but all I have to finish due to my line of work. Probably 3 of these have made me fear serious injury. I'm pleased I know that I can hold my own, it takes away some of that sefl doubt. I was always say to staff "you're going to get into scraps, we all do, there is nothing wrong with that, but there is everything wrong with losing." Harsh but true - it is to advise people not to pussy foot around, as it is a sure way to get hit.

I've seen that clip of Tohei and all it shows is a man (Tohei) with superior balance pushing a realtively clumsy person away (I think he was an ex-wrestler - but obviously out of shape etc). Don't take anything from this - I'm sure he didn't.

The interesting thing for me is how long this post is, and how many people comment on it. Likewise Youtube, God help the person that doesn't disable comments when posting an Aikido clip, or else in no time most posts develop into a long winded argument. Why?

Despite what they say, a number of Aikido practicioners feel somewhat insecure, and have to defend what they do. I've also done BJJ for the last 7 - 8 years, it also faces criticism for being "ground based" - but most BJJ practioners just inwardly laugh at such ignorance, and always say "if you think what we do is crap - come to our mat and back your words up!"

What a shocking attitude!!!!!! My Aikido is very soft, and non combatitive. Aikido is what Aikido is.

[Janet Rosen]

Aikido is what Aikido is.

:)Welcome to aikiweb, Matt. Sounds like you have a good, reality-based grounding to make more contributions here.

[Ketsan]

Aikido is what Aikido is.

There is nothing in the universe that is not what it is.

[Michael Hackett]

I had a still different view of the Tohei/"Cameraman" film clip. My view was that Tohei Sensei was playing with the guy and trying not to do anything that would actually injure him. The man was a wrestler and sidekick to the star of the show and it would have been a mess if he'd been thrown in a corner on his head from a PR standpoint. Could Tohei Sensei have thrown him around? I don't know, but I certainly think so from what I saw. I don't think Gus (as I recall that was his name) could have safely received a high koshinage or quick iriminage without injury. He appeared strong, but overweight and out of shape. The program would have been far different had Tohei savaged the guy.

[Gorgeous George]

Is this the clip under discussion?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-0RFvgy7-0

The narrator mentions how Tohei sensei is deliberately not using any techniques that could harm the man.

Also: I recall that no less a source than Chiba sensei tells a story of how Tohei sensei accepted a challenge at Hombu from some South American wrestlers, and he easily defeated them - pinning one with just his tegatana, I believe.

And he also fought in World War II, didn't he? - But y'know?: maybe he didn't know how to handle himself in a physical confrontation...

[graham christian]

On watching the Tohei clip I remember seeing the whole documentary.

I'm surprised by any who think that was not good Aikido. Especially taking into account the guy was untrained and very big.

Does anyone still practice and thus recognise Ma-ai? May I add keeping Ma-ai.

Of course the guy was unfit for he just wanted to know if his bulk could be handled by what he was being shown. A good uke.

He was made to look more ungamely by Toheis motion combined with the discipline of keeping Ma-ai. When he entered he soon finished it so the guy got an experience he wouldn't forget and totally different no doubt to what he'd experienced before. Job done.

If I remember correctly he got an even better experience at the hands of O'Sensei.( unless that was the other guy)

I think his Aikido was up to reality.

Regards.G.

[Hellis]

Tony

If you are still reading this forum ? come back all is forgiven.
It is too quiet without your input.

Henry Ellis
Aikido Controversy
http://aikido-controversy.blogspot.com/

[mickeygelum]

Oh Tony....you're so fine....you're so fine....you blow my mind....HEY TONY ! :D

[dps]

Tony

If you are still reading this forum ? come back all is forgiven.
It is too quiet without your input.

Henry Ellis
Aikido Controversy
http://aikido-controversy.blogspot.com/

Maybe Tony has banned Aikiweb from his computer.

dps

[graham christian]

To me the question is nonsensical.

I would ask rather 'Is your reality up to Aikido?'

To you this may be nonsensical.

To Aikido it's obvious!

[Hellis]

Maybe Tony has banned Aikiweb from his computer.

dps

David

I imagine that Graham is thinking the same :D

Henry Ellis
Aikido Controversy
http://aikido-controversy.blogspot.com/

[Ketsan]

To me the question is nonsensical.

I would ask rather 'Is your reality up to Aikido?'

To you this may be nonsensical.

To Aikido it's obvious!

"Your reality" is nonsensical. There is only one reality.

[hughrbeyer]

"Your reality" is nonsensical. There is only one reality.

The voices in my head say otherwise.

[graham christian]

David

I imagine that Graham is thinking the same :D

Henry Ellis
Aikido Controversy
http://aikido-controversy.blogspot.com/

Henry. What makes you think so?

Both you and Tony I have nothing against. Just because you overtly oppose a lot of my views doesn't make you an enemy of mine. It certainly doesn't make me worry about what you think for that is your right.

Associating anything I say with Tony is childish.

Unlike some on this forum I do not run to teacher (jun) to complain even if I do find his aim is to offend sometimes.

I bow to no man and yet I bow to all in humility.

Regards.G.

[Hellis]

Henry. What makes you think so?

Both you and Tony I have nothing against. Just because you overtly oppose a lot of my views doesn't make you an enemy of mine. It certainly doesn't make me worry about what you think for that is your right.

Associating anything I say with Tony is childish.

Unlike some on this forum I do not run to teacher (jun) to complain even if I do find his aim is to offend sometimes.

I bow to no man and yet I bow to all in humility.

Regards.G.

Graham

What makes me think so ?
It is the difference between your idea of reality and what I imagine Tony's to be.
How on earth could I become an enemy of yours ? I don't know you, I have never met you...Why should you worry what I or anyone else on here says? It is a forum, as with most forums people say things they would not say to you personally, I am sure that Tony would as I know I would.

The only problem I have with you Graham is, I often wonder what planet you are on, and how the el you got there.
Other than that you seem a really nice guy.

Henry Ellis
Aikido in MMA
http://rik-ellis.blogspot.com/

[graham christian]

Graham

What makes me think so ?
It is the difference between your idea of reality and what I imagine Tony's to be.
How on earth could I become an enemy of yours ? I don't know you, I have never met you...Why should you worry what I or anyone else on here says? It is a forum, as with most forums people say things they would not say to you personally, I am sure that Tony would as I know I would.

The only problem I have with you Graham is, I often wonder what planet you are on, and how the el you got there.
Other than that you seem a really nice guy.

Henry Ellis
Aikido in MMA
http://rik-ellis.blogspot.com/

Henry.
I bow to your response. Straight and honest.

I understand you must think I'm on another planet sometimes and can recall some things I've said that would make you feel so. However I can do what I say and if that makes some wonder then so be it. I recall mentioning Ki atsu and I have and do use it to heal others, help them heal or discover what they need in order to heal. All three. That may sound as you describe then so be it.

Anyway if you ever want to visit then all you need is one spacecraft and a galactic map.

Respectfully.G.

[Ketsan]

The voices in my head say otherwise.

:D

[Hellis]

Henry.
I bow to your response. Straight and honest.

I understand you must think I'm on another planet sometimes and can recall some things I've said that would make you feel so. However I can do what I say and if that makes some wonder then so be it. I recall mentioning Ki atsu and I have and do use it to heal others, help them heal or discover what they need in order to heal. All three. That may sound as you describe then so be it.

Anyway if you ever want to visit then all you need is one spacecraft and a galactic map.

Respectfully.G.

Graham

Next time I see a UFO I will give you a friendly wave :)

Respect to you too.

Henry Ellis
Aikido Articles
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/

[graham christian]

Graham

Next time I see a UFO I will give you a friendly wave :)

Respect to you too.

Henry Ellis
Aikido Articles
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/

Remember, if the Alien is not wearing a hat then it's not me.

[Tony Wagstaffe]

Is this the clip under discussion?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-0RFvgy7-0

The narrator mentions how Tohei sensei is deliberately not using any techniques that could harm the man.

Also: I recall that no less a source than Chiba sensei tells a story of how Tohei sensei accepted a challenge at Hombu from some South American wrestlers, and he easily defeated them - pinning one with just his tegatana, I believe.

And he also fought in World War II, didn't he? - But y'know?: maybe he didn't know how to handle himself in a physical confrontation...

I know plenty of people that were in the last war, two of whom I worked with in my older occupation as a sparky, they were both plumbers....
One was a desert rat and one was a submariner Both said they sh***e themselves on many an occasions during their war service, of which I have no doubt!!. Both of them are now sadly deceased.....
They both knew I did martial arts and referred to it as juju (which I found quite amusing :D ) In conversation they told me they did not get taught any martial arts other than unarmed and armed combat in training..... Did they ever use it? Only one and he said it was effing dirty, but it worked!!.... He wasn't proud of what he did and quite often laughed at those who took part in the remembrance parades, we see every year.... He was gad that he just survived it all. All BS was his words!!
I can tell you now that he had a row of campaign medals to weigh any old soldier down on one side, but he said" It was for what?" I think I know where he was coming from, when we see what has happened in this country over the years.....
Both did actually come to the dojo that I taught, to see what we got up to...... both liked very much what I had to offer people. They thought it was very similar to what they were taught for unarmed combat...... Short and sweet and to the point, but still refered to it as Juju :D
From what I saw of the Tohei clip it was pretty obvious to me that it was tamed down a bit, no different to a Shodokan bout.... All this crap where you see him take on 5 - 6 attackers is well OTT and I do not buy it other than a demonstration of getting out of the way, nice when you have a nice flat surface and the only obstructions are the other "attackers" It's about time that those irrational people who think he can actually do that in a real scenario, please get real, and please don't be fooled.....:rolleyes: It ain't real and never will be.....

[Tony Wagstaffe]

On watching the Tohei clip I remember seeing the whole documentary.

I'm surprised by any who think that was not good Aikido. Especially taking into account the guy was untrained and very big.

Does anyone still practice and thus recognise Ma-ai? May I add keeping Ma-ai.

Of course the guy was unfit for he just wanted to know if his bulk could be handled by what he was being shown. A good uke.

He was made to look more ungamely by Toheis motion combined with the discipline of keeping Ma-ai. When he entered he soon finished it so the guy got an experience he wouldn't forget and totally different no doubt to what he'd experienced before. Job done.

If I remember correctly he got an even better experience at the hands of O'Sensei.( unless that was the other guy)

I think his Aikido was up to reality.

Regards.G.

Same goes for you to Graham......

[Tony Wagstaffe]

I am sorry,but Tohei struggled!!!! Maybe his Ki was low that day!

Patterned training leads to failure!

And besides it was an impromptu act!!

A realist?...... Me thinks so;)

[Tony Wagstaffe]

priceless guys! :D

Greg

My gosh George those carrots have done you some good!!
You have lost a lot of excess I see..... well done :D

[Tony Wagstaffe]

Remember, if the Alien is not wearing a hat then it's not me.

Oh dear Tetley.....:D

[Tony Wagstaffe]

"Without me my rifle is useless, without my rifle I am useless."

The question is therefore about the nature of Aikido. Is it a rifle; does it function as a martial art? If a shodan Judoka requests and is granted a sparring match with a yondan Aikidoka and the Aikidoka looses should his students continue with him? Would it still be reasonable to say that the yondan is a skilled Aikidoka?
In martial terms what should we expect from Aikido in various situations?

Not a lot from what I've seen.....:D

[Tony Wagstaffe]

Considering the way petrol prices are going that's quite generous! :D

Be worth it though....:D

[Tony Wagstaffe]

Tony:

I do not ask people to hold back. I tell them to give it to me. I am an old karateka, wrestler, etc.... I was doing that stuff way before they called it MMA. You cannot seem to wrap your head around the fact that you do have a very narrow perspective. The only resistance that you seem to be engaged in is akin to banging you head again and again against the concrete wall. No holes in the wall yet. You should lift your head, look around and see that there are other ways to get around the wall in front of you. What you think that you know impedes with you learning more. You have been given countless opportunities to recognize your self-imposed limitations and the only thing heard are excuses as to why you won't explore some more effective alternatives to what you are doing.

On that note, maybe you should focus more on your Aikidocise for those overweight people who need to lose weight ;) .

Marc Abrams

Like George you mean.....?

[Tony Wagstaffe]

Hi Joe,

Far from it - I'm just working on things in my own club whilst trying to follow a few teachers but not be a copycat, I'm trying to figure out how to get my body to do the things some of their bodies can. I've not felt any Aikido teacher in this country who feels like some of the guys who I like - I mean that from an 'internal' feeling point of view. Hard to explain, but kind of like feeling how the hell did they just do that to me. Mostly I feel (in this country) definite muscling of most techniques on me - every way of course has it's merits and to each his own.

I'm absolutely not wanting to see uke's fly away or fall over without being touched - that would impress me about as much as it would impress you.

I'm afraid that I rarely watch youtube for my Aikido fixes, I usually get out to seminars and train with people as opposed to stomping around a mat telling others that they should try to understand the principles behind the techniques when it's someone not even of their background or 'flavour' of aikido teaching. Ahem, some Scottish chap did that to me once or twice ;) lol.

I'm far from an expert on anything internal, but I do know what I've felt is not something 'normal'. I've trained with quite a few guys in this country, you included (you're the Scottish guy I mentioned above lol) and no-one has given me the same feeling of utter confusion yet. Lot's of pain yes, but not lots of confusion.

I never meant any offense to Tony's aikido, indeed for what it was it looked good, just I was expecting something more from how he was talking in the IS threads. Indeed some of the thumb grabs and wrist manipulations reminded me of my first teacher, brought back a few memories :).

Tony - yes and no, I don't think your internal works any different, I think you're talking about something entirely different which you are calling internal - and that's great for you. But it's not what the other guys are talking about :p .

Nothing internal except guts? Mind se's body move body moves....?
either that or stay still? I just like to keep it simple.....

[Tony Wagstaffe]

That's not accurate at all. Tohei had strict limitations put upon him by Ueshiba...

So do the shodokaner shoddy thugs......:rolleyes:

[Tony Wagstaffe]

You have no clue what you are talking about.
<sigh>

do you?

[Tony Wagstaffe]

Oh Tony....you're so fine....you're so fine....you blow my mind....HEY TONY ! :D

Hey Mickey please...... next thing you'll be asking me for a dance....

hello sailor...........:D .

[Tony Wagstaffe]

David

I imagine that Graham is thinking the same :D

Henry Ellis
Aikido Controversy
http://aikido-controversy.blogspot.com/

Sorry Henry I'm back to haunt......:D

[Tony Wagstaffe]

To me the question is nonsensical.

I would ask rather 'Is your reality up to Aikido?'

To you this may be nonsensical.

To Aikido it's obvious!

:confused: Yes.....

[Hellis]

Sorry Henry I'm back to haunt......:D

Hi Tony

Good to see you are back to take a reality check :)

Nice to see you and Graham getting on so well, you keep in with him and he will help you back onto the true path...

Henry Ellis
Aikido Controversy
http://aikido-controversy.blogspot.com/

[Tony Wagstaffe]

Hi Tony

Good to see you are back to take a reality check :)

Nice to see you and Graham getting on so well, you keep in with him and he will help you back onto the true path...

Henry Ellis
Aikido Controversy
http://aikido-controversy.blogspot.com/

I've already had five point awarded as an infraction and I've only been back 5 mins !! What's this 1 point per one minute? Geeeeeze!! Who's the creep?

I think its time to start a new Fred......?

Sorry Sensei, thought I'd get things of to a good start?
Not bloomin' likely.....:rolleyes:

Graham' s allright Just doesn't see what I see I suppose, Must get one of those 'ats though, really coooool.....

[Hellis]

I've already had five point awarded as an infraction and I've only been back 5 mins !! What's this 1 point per one minute? Geeeeeze!! Who's the creep?

I think its time to start a new Fred......?

Sorry Sensei, thought I'd get things of to a good start?
Not bloomin' likely.....:rolleyes:

Graham' s allright Just doesn't see what I see I suppose, Must get one of those 'ats though, really coooool.....

Tony

What is five point infraction ?? never heard of that ..

You need to make ``new `` friends, say nice things, such as admire Grahams hats :)

Henry Ellis
Aikido Books
http://aikido-books.blogspot.com/

[john.burn]

Nothing internal except guts? Mind se's body move body moves....?
either that or stay still? I just like to keep it simple.....

Would you be so kind as to translate what you just said into legible English? I think you already responded to this way back when.

If you're trying to say there's only guts inside then.. oh dear :rolleyes: .

[chillzATL]

awesome, I've got 1 week, over/under anyone?

[lbb]

Taking the under. WAY under.

[john.burn]

6 days... :p

[Tony Wagstaffe]

Would you be so kind as to translate what you just said into legible English? I think you already responded to this way back when.

If you're trying to say there's only guts inside then.. oh dear :rolleyes: .

Last time I looked there was.... I worked in the local hospital for twelve and a half years in all department as a sparks. I was quite interested in the autopsy's in the morgue (last stop hotel) where they would cut out all the tripe, liver, kidneys, heart, lungs and other bits and pieces and put them in different buckets for close inspection as well as the donor's that were whisked off for transplantation elsewhere after the rta's that came in...... Usually in different bags... that is messy:dead:
the worst bit is when they do the first cut and all the gases escape.... Phooor what a stink!! wretch wretch !! Just like gutting a bunny...... :D
It's the zip stitch up they do afterwards, so neat and tidy, when they put back what is no good, or a fry up......?

[Tony Wagstaffe]

Tony

What is five point infraction ?? never heard of that ..

You need to make ``new `` friends, say nice things, such as admire Grahams hats :)

Henry Ellis
Aikido Books
http://aikido-books.blogspot.com/

I do, I do..... How is Tetley? ...... aka Tea Cosy....:)

[Tony Wagstaffe]

6 days... :p

Don't you believe it unless you have "friends"?;)

[Hellis]

Don't you believe it unless you have "friends"?;)

Tony

As I said, you need friends - Good to see you making new friends,

Henry Ellis
Aikido in MMA
http://rik-ellis.blogspot.com/

[Mark Freeman]

awesome, I've got 1 week, over/under anyone?

I'm in with Mary on this one:D

18 posts in quick succession, he's back....but for how long?:eek:

[Hellis]

I'm in with Mary on this one:D

18 posts in quick succession, he's back....but for how long?:eek:

Mark

I didn't count the posts - to be fair to Tony he has been away for a month and is catching up on his replies.....
Personally, I would get little or no satisfaction from a further ban.
Tony tells it how it is, not many people like that...I don't always agree with him as I am sure he probably does not with me.
Do I care "" NO "" Does Tony care ""NO "" lets keep the forum open for free speech.

Henry Ellis
British Aikido History
http://www.british-aikido.com

[Mark Freeman]

Mark

I didn't count the posts - to be fair to Tony he has been away for a month and is catching up on his replies.....
Personally, I would get little or no satisfaction from a further ban.
Tony tells it how it is, not many people like that...I don't always agree with him as I am sure he probably does not with me.
Do I care "" NO "" Does Tony care ""NO "" lets keep the forum open for free speech.

Henry Ellis
British Aikido History
http://www.british-aikido.com

Hi Henry,

I'm all for free speech, apart from yelling Fire! in a theatre. I respect that Tony has strong opinions, a dodgy sense of humour and little good to say about aikido that doesn't fit his view of how it should be.
I'm not sure that people dislike the fact that Tony tells it how it is, maybe it is the delivery that rankles some? Some unpalatable truths can be accepted when explained in the right way.

Personally I would get little satisfaction from a ban either, I like a banter and a good argument now and then. However, this is Jun's forum and him's that makes and enforces the rules.

One of the best examples I saw of 'ironic' free speech was seeing a group of muslim protesters at a rally in the UK with one holding up a placard saying "Kill all those who say that Islam is not a religion of peace". They were being protected by the police! So free speech, yes let people say what they want, let everyone else judge the merits of what they say.

regards

Mark

[Tony Wagstaffe]

Hi Henry,

I'm all for free speech, apart from yelling Fire! in a theatre. I respect that Tony has strong opinions, a dodgy sense of humour and little good to say about aikido that doesn't fit his view of how it should be.
I'm not sure that people dislike the fact that Tony tells it how it is, maybe it is the delivery that rankles some? Some unpalatable truths can be accepted when explained in the right way.

Personally I would get little satisfaction from a ban either, I like a banter and a good argument now and then. However, this is Jun's forum and him's that makes and enforces the rules.

One of the best examples I saw of 'ironic' free speech was seeing a group of muslim protesters at a rally in the UK with one holding up a placard saying "Kill all those who say that Islam is not a religion of peace". They were being protected by the police! So free speech, yes let people say what they want, let everyone else judge the merits of what they say.

regards

Mark

Crikey, I'm ranked with the radicals now..... May he who must be obeyed strike me down with lightning bolts..... ouch!!...:confused:

[Tony Wagstaffe]

Mark

I didn't count the posts - to be fair to Tony he has been away for a month and is catching up on his replies.....
Personally, I would get little or no satisfaction from a further ban.
Tony tells it how it is, not many people like that...I don't always agree with him as I am sure he probably does not with me.
Do I care "" NO "" Does Tony care ""NO "" lets keep the forum open for free speech.

Henry Ellis
British Aikido History
http://www.british-aikido.com

Henry Sensei has me weighed off, surely the rest of you can see that.... Sorry about my dodgy sense of humour, I'm just not me without it..... Maybe some of of us need to develop more Rhino Skin....?
Can you? I know I did many eons ago whilst in service for my country. :) Boy oh boy there was some right wind ups.......:eek:
I do have a serious side to me sometimes, but the older I get the funnier things get to.... I will try to be more serious........ :D

[Tony Wagstaffe]

Hi Tony

Good to see you are back to take a reality check :)

Nice to see you and Graham getting on so well, you keep in with him and he will help you back onto the true path...

Henry Ellis
Aikido Controversy
http://aikido-controversy.blogspot.com/

Not up the garden path I 'ope.....? So long as there is a good brew there I'm up for it.....;) Tea anybody? With or without? One lump or two?

[David Orange]

Henry Sensei has me weighed off, surely the rest of you can see that.... Sorry about my dodgy sense of humour, I'm just not me without it..... Maybe some of of us need to develop more Rhino Skin....?
Can you? I know I did many eons ago whilst in service for my country. :) Boy oh boy there was some right wind ups.......:eek:
I do have a serious side to me sometimes, but the older I get the funnier things get to.... I will try to be more serious........ :D

Tony,

It's clear, though, that you're still stinging from having been suspended from the forum for awhile. I know the feeling. I've gotten too involved in disputes with people on here several times and gotten suspended. And I've recognized that it was my own behavior that earned the suspension. And I can tell you, you earned yours. No need to be offended by it. The offense was yours.

You'll do well just to quit wagging your staff and actually listen to what some people are telling you. There are some excellent martial artists on here with more than a little experience in fighting--people who do martial arts regularly with top teachers from around the world; people who actually own their dojos and control when the space is available and exactly what kind of mats are there. They don't have to beg or make excuses for what they charge. Some of them don't charge at all, yet deliver up some of the best training available anywhere. If they're not able to teach, it's usually because they're out of the country, training with some real master. And that kind of "interruption" doesn't sneak up on them: they're well-paid professionals who created and maintain the space and time in their lives for serious martial arts training and they don't waste that time. They get and give the best.

You could gain a lot by listening to what those people have to say about martial arts. And I'm sure you'd find much more respect from those who read these forums if you will.

Otherwise, I'd expect a few more head-butt sessions before you get a permanent ban, in which case no one will miss you.

It all starts with a good look at oneself and a measure of respect for other people.

Good luck with that.

David

[David Orange]

But to get back to reality and the topic of this thread, "Is aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?"

Many people may not be aware of this, but Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu is an actual martial art: besides subjects like sword, staff and spear, they teach the ancient samurai way of building fortifications--structures to prevent horses and enemy troops from passing a line. And they teach spy-craft and assassination methods.

That is a real martial art.

Does anyone in aikido teach or even know that kind of thing?

I'm sure there is no "style" or group of aikido that teaches that way. So, no, aikido is not a soldier art. It doesn't include marching to a cadence, turning a column or by the flank.

At best, aikido is an art of personal self-defense, and that is how I view it. The question then is, "Is your aikido effective for street encounters with thugs?" And I have to say that mine is. Take it or leave it, I have the experience and to say otherwise makes the speaker a fool.

And I have also passed that art to others. One person who really impressed me was a small woman who was working as a cosmetologist in New York City. She trained with me for several months before moving up there and was pretty good in randori. She told me two stories about defending herself from two attackers each time.

In the first case, she was walking with her cosmetology kit in one hand when she became aware that two guys were following her closely and coming closer. Just as she glanced back, one guy rushed up and grabbed her from behind, his arms around her waist and his head coming out from under her arm. His friend was hanging back. My former student simply brought her make-up case across her body and bonked the fellow in the head with it. He instantly let her go and staggered back, holding his head. The other guy said, "Oh, man! This is not cool!" and they both ran away.

In the other incident, she realized that two guys were following her as she neared her building and she sensed that they were going to follow her inside and rob her. She knew they didn't live in her building and she could sense that they were targeting her. Her building had a double door arrangement: the street-level door was open to the public, but at the top of a set of steps was a locked door. She went through the first door and put her key into the second door just as the guys came through the first door. She got the second door unlocked just as they were coming up the stairs and she could tell that they were going to rush in behind her and rob her. So, with the second door unlocked, she turned to the guys and as the first one reached the top step, she just shoved him back and he fell onto the second guy, who was following him. They both fell down the interior steps while she went inside and the door locked behind her.

Two separate two-man attacks, each handled by one "move" that was not even a "technique". She credited her training with me for giving her the "sense" of how to do those things: effortless, effective, perfectly timed actions that cut to the heart of the matter.

How could she have done more perfectly?

Her aikido was certainly up to reality. And since she learned it from me....I'm proud of her.

Best wishes.

David

[lbb]

Two basic facts:

1)"Telling it like it is" is always, ALWAYS in the eye of the beholder, and you -- the beholder -- has no more claim to knowing what objective reality ("like it is") than anyone else.

2)Absolute freedom of speech is not guaranteed anywhere on the planet, by any means, and most certainly not when you're in someone else's living room. And when you're on a forum that's built and run and paid for by someone else? Cuz, you ARE in someone else's living room, and talk about "freedom of speech" is just silly.

[George S. Ledyard]

Mark

I didn't count the posts - to be fair to Tony he has been away for a month and is catching up on his replies.....
Personally, I would get little or no satisfaction from a further ban.
Tony tells it how it is, not many people like that...I don't always agree with him as I am sure he probably does not with me.
Do I care "" NO "" Does Tony care ""NO "" lets keep the forum open for free speech.

Henry Ellis
British Aikido History
http://www.british-aikido.com

When Tony is gone... well, it's a bit dull, oft times. When he's back, it's fireworks and vituperation galore. What does that say about the rest of us? I think one of the things Aikido training is about is developing heightened sensitivity with zero reactivity. I think Tony's here for us to practice on our excess of reactivity... if he exceeds our capacity to do so, there's always the "ignore" function...

That brings up a very Zen scenario... If Tony posts but everyone has hit the ignore button, did he really post?

Let's let Jun off the hook and police things for ourselves, if we want to.

[Tony Wagstaffe]

When Tony is gone... well, it's a bit dull, oft times. When he's back, it's fireworks and vituperation galore. What does that say about the rest of us? I think one of the things Aikido training is about is developing heightened sensitivity with zero reactivity. I think Tony's here for us to practice on our excess of reactivity... if he exceeds our capacity to do so, there's always the "ignore" function...

That brings up a very Zen scenario... If Tony posts but everyone has hit the ignore button, did he really post?

Let's let Jun off the hook and police things for ourselves, if we want to.

;)

[Diana Frese]

What keeps Aiki Web so interesting is the diversity. But then, I got into construction after publishing downsized .... and the language is a bit "dodgy?" Wonder what that means, will have to ask on the "separated by a common language" thread.

Loved David's story, now it would be great if y'all y'all (all y'all) could post your favorites.

Tony and Henry have made some valuable points we all should be aware of, Henry has no problem, but Tony please try to stay with us even though "drawing room manners" might seem a bit restrictive. Take it as just another challenge...

(I simply must try to learn to use smileys, but there aren't any on quick reply. Guess I'll have to learn Technology and try the other reply mode.)

[Diana Frese]

No time like the present.

Take it as just another challenge;)

Let's see if I got the right smiley

[Diana Frese]

See I learned something

[Tony Wagstaffe]

See I learned something

Oh I say, Steady on Dianne!!:D ;)

[sakumeikan]

Two basic facts:

1)"Telling it like it is" is always, ALWAYS in the eye of the beholder, and you -- the beholder -- has no more claim to knowing what objective reality ("like it is") than anyone else.

2)Absolute freedom of speech is not guaranteed anywhere on the planet, by any means, and most certainly not when you're in someone else's living room. And when you're on a forum that's built and run and paid for by someone else? Cuz, you ARE in someone else's living room, and talk about "freedom of speech" is just silly.
Dear Mary, all our lovely readers,
Do you not think it would be a bit dull if all our bloggers churned out the same type of blog day in day out? I am prepared to let Tony have his occasional rant .In fact I personally prefer a rant to some of the blogs by Tenyu which might be the the scientifically minded be absolute gems of wisdom .To me Tenyu -sorry old chap-leaves me scratching my head and wondering what is Tenyu talking about?His blogs amaze me for their [from my perspective] compexity.They leave me with a blank look on my face .Still I will read them to see if both Tenyu /myself can find a vibration/energy field that we both understand.
Diversity is the in my opinion good.From an other example, would anybody like to live eating t bone steaks or porridge ever day?You would soon get sick of the same meal every day
Cheers, Joe.

[Tony Wagstaffe]

I am with Craig's on this, you have no clue!

Tohie was outweighed probably by double - he was not put down, but the other guy was on a couple of occasions. To me, that is what true Aikido would look like in a true combative encounter - it is not about the picture perfect form of a technique, it is about the application of principles and concepts - to me, Tohei appeared to be playing with this guy - for those that do impromptu randori in your training, this is exactly what it looks like, not pretty, but effective if done right.

Greg

yehaaaay!!:)

[lbb]

Dear Mary, all our lovely readers,
Do you not think it would be a bit dull if all our bloggers churned out the same type of blog day in day out?

It would indeed be dull if all our posters churned out the same type of post day in day out...but...we don't.

I am prepared to let Tony have his occasional rant.

Let's not particularize this to Tony, ok?

On the question of whether rants should be permitted...a lot of people think rants are just fine, as long as they themselves are not the target. When someone says that they think a bloody fray is just fine, and they themselves were not among those attacked, I take their view with a big grain of salt.

Diversity is the in my opinion good.

But incivility and diversity are two different things. Being a contrarian is not "diversity". Resorting to crude insults is not "diversity". Refusal to politely accept others' different views, or to argue with them in a respectful and civil manner, is not "diversity". If anything, it is the opposite. If your view has merit, you can argue it in a civil manner, with others who have different views. That's diversity. A din of blustering bullies is not.

[Tony Wagstaffe]

Tony,

It's clear, though, that you're still stinging from having been suspended from the forum for awhile. I know the feeling. I've gotten too involved in disputes with people on here several times and gotten suspended. And I've recognized that it was my own behavior that earned the suspension. And I can tell you, you earned yours. No need to be offended by it. The offense was yours.

You'll do well just to quit wagging your staff and actually listen to what some people are telling you. There are some excellent martial artists on here with more than a little experience in fighting--people who do martial arts regularly with top teachers from around the world; people who actually own their dojos and control when the space is available and exactly what kind of mats are there. They don't have to beg or make excuses for what they charge. Some of them don't charge at all, yet deliver up some of the best training available anywhere. If they're not able to teach, it's usually because they're out of the country, training with some real master. And that kind of "interruption" doesn't sneak up on them: they're well-paid professionals who created and maintain the space and time in their lives for serious martial arts training and they don't waste that time. They get and give the best.

You could gain a lot by listening to what those people have to say about martial arts. And I'm sure you'd find much more respect from those who read these forums if you will.

Otherwise, I'd expect a few more head-butt sessions before you get a permanent ban, in which case no one will miss you.

It all starts with a good look at oneself and a measure of respect for other people.

Good luck with that.

David

David you sound like a school teacher with a bad pupil, I suggest you take heed of your own words? Me stinging? You have got to be having a laugh old son, some advice, take it or leave as I really don't give a toss......
You talk about he who must be obeyed right? I have noticed that you often bring it in to your posts....... I have another alternative that maybe you should read and see what you come up with. It seems to me that you have the sour grapes and cannot see that in yourself?
I am well aware of who is a "master" and who isn't , it certainly isn't you as you have someone on your side? True masters wouldn't even bother with this forum as they are probably too busy minding their own business just as you say? I doubt if there are any really true "masters" these days, As I am aware even our great teacher referred to himself as just a beginner?

http://godisimaginary.com/

If lightning doesn't strike me twice in the next half hour and you haven't been converted then I'm afraid there is no hope for you....

Take care old son.......

[Tony Wagstaffe]

It would indeed be dull if all our posters churned out the same type of post day in day out...but...we don't.

Let's not particularize this to Tony, ok?

On the question of whether rants should be permitted...a lot of people think rants are just fine, as long as they themselves are not the target. When someone says that they think a bloody fray is just fine, and they themselves were not among those attacked, I take their view with a big grain of salt.

But incivility and diversity are two different things. Being a contrarian is not "diversity". Resorting to crude insults is not "diversity". Refusal to politely accept others' different views, or to argue with them in a respectful and civil manner, is not "diversity". If anything, it is the opposite. If your view has merit, you can argue it in a civil manner, with others who have different views. That's diversity. A din of blustering bullies is not.

Mary lighten up for what's is names sake? You sound like a school mistress too.....:D

[Hellis]

Mary lighten up for what's is names sake? You sound like a school mistress too.....:D

Tony and Jo

I salute you both for trying against all the odds :D

Henry Ellis
Aikido Articles
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/

[David Orange]

Tony and Jo

I salute you both for trying against all the odds :D

Henry Ellis
Aikido Articles
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/

There's really no odds, Sir T.

Especially with Jo, who is pretty reasonable. You're pretty reasonable, too.

But Tony reminds me of a truck driver who used to come into a coffee shop I frequented. He took to sitting with a group of people I liked and with whom I used to have lengthy conversations on interesting topics.

The problem was, this guy was all talk and no listen. He would make his statements in a loud and crude voice and when you tried to respond, he would just make another statement, talking over you. Maybe if he'd had something interesting to say, people would have listened to him, but it was all noise, negativity, complaints and bragging. And if you tried to "converse" with him, compare notes, make an observation, he would just keep on moaning right over you. I soon found another place to sit and I could hear him criticizing me from the bar for thinking I was better than "them". He soon found himself alone. The coffee shop also went down about that time. He's no good for talk and he's no good for business.

Sad, really, but what more can you do?

Best to you.

David

[Tony Wagstaffe]

There's really no odds, Sir T.

Especially with Jo, who is pretty reasonable. You're pretty reasonable, too.

But Tony reminds me of a truck driver who used to come into a coffee shop I frequented. He took to sitting with a group of people I liked and with whom I used to have lengthy conversations on interesting topics.

The problem was, this guy was all talk and no listen. He would make his statements in a loud and crude voice and when you tried to respond, he would just make another statement, talking over you. Maybe if he'd had something interesting to say, people would have listened to him, but it was all noise, negativity, complaints and bragging. And if you tried to "converse" with him, compare notes, make an observation, he would just keep on moaning right over you. I soon found another place to sit and I could hear him criticizing me from the bar for thinking I was better than "them". He soon found himself alone. The coffee shop also went down about that time. He's no good for talk and he's no good for business.

Sad, really, but what more can you do?

Best to you.

David

Definitely sour grapes? tsk tsk.....

http://godisimaginary.com/

[Gorgeous George]

Jesus...when will the ban hammer fall (again)?

[Tony Wagstaffe]

Jesus...when will the ban hammer fall (again)?

Where's your mate Tetley.....?

[Tony Wagstaffe]

Jesus...when will the ban hammer fall (again)?

He won't help.... tried that, failed miserably.....:dead:

[sakumeikan]

It would indeed be dull if all our posters churned out the same type of post day in day out...but...we don't.

Let's not particularize this to Tony, ok?

On the question of whether rants should be permitted...a lot of people think rants are just fine, as long as they themselves are not the target. When someone says that they think a bloody fray is just fine, and they themselves were not among those attacked, I take their view with a big grain of salt.

But incivility and diversity are two different things. Being a contrarian is not "diversity". Resorting to crude insults is not "diversity". Refusal to politely accept others' different views, or to argue with them in a respectful and civil manner, is not "diversity". If anything, it is the opposite. If your view has merit, you can argue it in a civil manner, with others who have different views. That's diversity. A din of blustering bullies is not.
Dear Mary,
Hope you are well.Mary , nowhere in my blog do I mention anything related to being civil /or uncivil. I stated that I felt diversity of opinion from our contributors makes thing more interesting.As I stated I find it difficult to get my head around some articles on this forum but I do not consider myself a person who resorts to crude insults or can be put in the category of a blustering bully.
Cheers, Joe

[sakumeikan]

When Tony is gone... well, it's a bit dull, oft times. When he's back, it's fireworks and vituperation galore. What does that say about the rest of us? I think one of the things Aikido training is about is developing heightened sensitivity with zero reactivity. I think Tony's here for us to practice on our excess of reactivity... if he exceeds our capacity to do so, there's always the "ignore" function...

That brings up a very Zen scenario... If Tony posts but everyone has hit the ignore button, did he really post?

Let's let Jun off the hook and police things for ourselves, if we want to.
Hi , Ledyard Sensei,
Very Zen like concept regarding Tony.Almost as strange as the question if a tree in a forest falls and there is no one there, does the tree make a sound?Or the other one, What is the sound of one hand clapping? Good stuff.
Cheers, Joe

[Gorgeous George]

Where's your mate Tetley.....?

Mate? Tetley...?

[Tony Wagstaffe]

Oh dear...... aren't we a little slow? :D

[Tony Wagstaffe]

Hi , Ledyard Sensei,
Very Zen like concept regarding Tony.Almost as strange as the question if a tree in a forest falls and there is no one there, does the tree make a sound?Or the other one, What is the sound of one hand clapping? Good stuff.
Cheers, Joe

Same as the other one?

[Gorgeous George]

Oh dear...... aren't we a little slow? :D

Hmm...if I was slow, I might have actually read the torrent of drivel you ceaselessly post - however, I haven't, which is probably a testament to some amount of wisdom.
That probably explains why I don't understand your pseudo-witty reference.

...thanks for 'Telling it like it is.'. When you are permanently banned, good luck finding something else to do with your time.

[akiy]

I don't see any sense in continuing this thread at this point seeing what the discussion has devolved into.

Thread closed.

-- Jun