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chadsieger
05-28-2002, 10:32 PM
To add to the discussion, Aikido techniques are usually not designed to be imitated on the "street." Rather, the techniques are simply designed for the purpose of teaching you the martial arts. Depending on which technique is in question, different aspects of the martial arts are practiced. Extension, softness, circles,
and sensitivity are some of the qualities that can be highlighted in any particular technique. When practiced correctly, one will grow beyond simple response techniques, and move to an area beyond simply fighting. Then the atemi that far too many schools swear by becomes a superficial hindrance.
In reality, the essence of the martial arts involves stability in the nage (one executing technique) to create a dramatic change in the uke (attacker/loser). Atemis are used to disrupt the uke long enough to get his/her balance/ki/chi/center, which would then neutralize the attack. Perhaps you will notice that you feel slightly less stable when your arm is extended for a
punch or your leg for a kick. That is why in Aikido it is crucial never to expose yourself, or in other words, give your opponent an opportunity to "take" your center. An atemi will create an undesirable unstability not only in your opponent, but also in yourself.
Every single technique in Aikido requires a spiritual atemi. Every single technique in Aikido requires a ki atemi. And yes, some of the inside moves, which are therefore more dangerous, do in fact require a physical atemi. So, O'Sensei was correct when saying that certain techniques do require atemi. He did not say however, to use atemis to practice Aikido. The purpose
of training with Aikido techniques is to teach you the feeling of budo. "Learn and forget." Using atemis on the mat degrade the nourishment. Similar to frying food.
I'm not saying strikes have no place in budo. Quite to contrary. However, at O'Sensei's skill level his true budo strike would look far beyond our comprehension.
Regardless, learn Aikido, always use it in defense, and your ki will conquer alone!

PeterR
05-28-2002, 11:14 PM
Cough cough.

shihonage
05-28-2002, 11:23 PM
Originally posted by chadsieger
Using atemis on the mat degrade the nourishment. Similar to frying food.


Watch it buddy, you just offended my food of choice.

Burgers.

Greg Jennings
05-28-2002, 11:52 PM
Hack, choke, cough...

I guess opinions vary...

Sincerely,

chadsieger
05-29-2002, 12:54 AM
I am eager to hear the opinions and questions of others. However, "cough, cough" leaves little to interpret. So, please feel free to express yourself without fear.

Thanks for reading!

Largo
05-29-2002, 01:35 AM
You have a lot of interesting points. I would however like to add my opinion that some people seem too quick to dismiss atemi. When you consider how muay thai and kyokushin kai atemi regularly break arms and legs, you realize that these aren't things to scoff at. Think of it like "know your enemy".

jk
05-29-2002, 04:06 AM
Spiritual atemi? Ki atemi? Please enlightened the great unwashed...

Regards,

Greg Jennings
05-29-2002, 07:05 AM
Look Chad,

It's not a good thing to join a forum and start a thread telling all the members how to train.

In fact, it's a worthless waste of Internet bandwidth.

If you've got a question, then ask.

If you have a closely held belief about something that seems to run counter to the memberships' general feeling, then post a short, leading question.

But if you go into a forum and make long, rambling posts in the form of statements of fact, especially about controversial topics, go ahead and put your asbestos fire suit on.

Let me be blunt...NO ONE has the market on truth cornered even if we could define "truth".

Sincerely,

Misogi-no-Gyo
05-29-2002, 09:38 AM
Let me be blunt...NO ONE has the market on truth cornered even if we could define "truth".

(Mr. Jennings) Hmmm, interesting point... Since everyone is being blunt in this thread, I thought I would play a bit of Devil's advocate with you...

For "arguments" sake, are you implying that if you happened to have been around, training with O-Sensei, and if he happened to sit down to tell you what "Aikido" is, that he wouldn't be telling you the truth? Or is it that you wouldn't believe him?

I guess my real question is, Do you think that there is no truth out there, or that "possibly" you just haven't met anyone who knew what it was, or knew but was not willing to tell you?

more questions (we) all can play with...

Moreover, if you had been around and told by O-Sensei what "Aikido" is, and then some twenty or thirty odd years after it had been completely bastardized you went around telling people what you thought it was based upon your own "true" experiences, would you then be wrong, or would everyone just believe you were?

Does anyone out there think that O-Sensei considered that his art might get watered down, atemi, weapons, and the martial spirit ripped from its center, So he "clued" a few of his closer disciples in on what he understood aikido to be, so that they would be able to pass it along once it all got turned to mud?

Do you think that this might even possibly have already happened?

With regards to the original poster of this thread, since we are "sharing" our "opinions" here, I have a statement and a question.

Statement: "Martial Arts without "atemi" is like sewing without a needle and thread."

Question: I am interested to know on what sources you base your opinion?

chadsieger
05-29-2002, 10:54 AM
It was not my intention to come to Aikiweb to illicit opinions of those with a "full cup." If anyone becomes offended, for whatever reason, I am sorry. Worst case scenario, someone scoffs at this rehtorical nonsense, best case scenario, a new student to Aikido and the Martial Arts elects to train beyond physical strength, trophies, and competition, on a endless quest to free their mind and spirit.
Tao nonsense I guess.
When I say a spiritual Atemi, I simply mean, that he/she as the aggressor have by intiating an attack have created an "unnatural" situation. If you are also in the wrong, for whatever reason, it will be intrisically more difficult for you to conteract the disharmony. Your positive spiritual atemi is required. Should you respond with hate, the attacker now has a better reason to attack. If you maintain the spirtual calm that we all strive for, the attacker could theoretically be subdued by your lack of aggression.
A ki atemi is far more "physical." Everyone has a ki field, whether you belive in it or not. Developing ki, though no simple task, can be done by anyone with the proper relaxed mindstate. Hopefully, your ki is more developed than your attacker's, in which case techniques may not be necessary. Extend though the attacker, and strike them with your ki!
Atemi on the mat degrades the lesson. Don't muscle through techniques! Use ki for better results.

Greg Jennings
05-29-2002, 11:49 AM
Originally posted by Misogi-no-Gyo


(Mr. Jennings) Hmmm, interesting point... Since everyone is being blunt in this thread, I thought I would play a bit of Devil's advocate with you...

For "arguments" sake, are you implying that if you happened to have been around, training with O-Sensei, and if he happened to sit down to tell you what "Aikido" is, that he wouldn't be telling you the truth? Or is it that you wouldn't believe him?

I guess my real question is, Do you think that there is no truth out there, or that "possibly" you just haven't met anyone who knew what it was, or knew but was not willing to tell you?


My belief is that there is no universal truth; that truth is a very context-dependent thing.

E.g., Is it true that two objects fall at the same rate of speed in a vacuum even though one weighs more than the other?

In at least one context the statement is "true". In others it is absolutely "false".

Best Regards,

Jim23
05-29-2002, 11:59 AM
Originally posted by chadsieger
So, O'Sensei was correct when saying that certain techniques do require atemi. He did not say however, to use atemis to practice Aikido. The purpose of training with Aikido techniques is to teach you the feeling of budo. "Learn and forget." Using atemis on the mat degrade the nourishment. Similar to frying food.

So, what you're saying is that you prefer sushi to, say, tempura. That some sushi can be of better quality than others - some may even need more wasabi! - and that sushi is not for everyone (too soft, subtle). We should all at least try tempura, but then put it behind us at mealtime. :D

Jim23

jk
05-29-2002, 10:22 PM
Originally posted by chadsieger
Atemi on the mat degrades the lesson.

Chad, how much physical atemi have you done/experienced to warrant this statement? As for my relatively inexperienced take on it, (my) aikido doesn't work so well without atemi, or at least without a very real threat of atemi on the part of nage...

Regards,

guest1234
05-29-2002, 11:32 PM
Hi Chad, and welcome to Aikido. I think you must be new, and perhaps not so used to interacting with people... you may find it easier to make friends (both here and in real life) if you approach others with the same respect you'd like. I'm sure you would not like to be talked down to, lectured to, or sit through someone's rambling, disjointed disertation on 'the real Aikido'.

Chocolateuke
05-29-2002, 11:44 PM
okay first off, I believe there are big truths and small truths. Big truths kinda stay true for a long time, Small truths change. sorry my mind is blank at the moment ( grrrrr stupid chemistry equations). but the truth does evovle most of the time in my opioin.

as for Chad. I aint no MA master or anythign acually most people say Im stupid but what do you mean by ki?? do you mean life force that substains us makes us grow and unifies us all together ( like the force). or do you mean the undying consentration which at times gives you the ablitly to be centered and balenced and the unbendble arm? what is your definition of KI??

BTW I love atemi it rocks! hurts but rocks and my sensei doesnt teach it till we have a very firm grasp on the basics! Have fun all!

chadsieger
05-30-2002, 12:41 AM
Firstly, I don't mean to offend anyone. My intention is not to preach or talk down to anyone. The purpose of my posts are simply to advise those just begining their martial arts journey, those who are dissatisfied with or just looking for more from their training, or those who simply are getting on in years and are looking for a way to make those old techniques still work now that the body is not so willing. If you have already decide not to persue the ki aspect of martial arts, than I am sorry and that is your decision. If you are still undecided as to its existence and purpose/usefulness in martial arts and especially Aikido, please feel free to read my posts.

Chocolateuke
05-30-2002, 10:14 AM
your still not answering the question.. what do you define as KI?? and how do you know if me or any other people on the form dont train in ki?? your making very bad assumptions. now if you already posted where you told us your definition of KI I would love to read it. but till then you havent answerd a few peoples question. as for training with ki! and some forms of AIkido think if you have enough relaxation focuse and balence "Ki" will work thorugh you. so.. sorry if I offend YOU but I just am courouse.

chadsieger
05-30-2002, 10:27 AM
Firstly, I HAVENT told anybody that they are doing anything incorrectly. I have laid out platform for anyone to follow. Why would anyone have a problem with that?
For Mr. Dallas, here is a brief but incomplete definition:
I'm am by no means an expert on ki. I have tasted a drop, but it springs from ocean I probably will never fully see. I can say for certain however that ki has these few attributes, ki comes in many forms (i.e. unbendable arm, the way that animals instinctively move), you need to utilize ki to correctly use Aikido or any other martial art correctly/most effectively (although Aikido and Tai Chi stress its importance the most), proper ki usage is attainable by anyone simply with effort, time, and direction, and finally, although ki is mysteriously vague, you know it when you see it.
Check the post "Ki usage in Aikido" for more information, or simply look for more of my posts.

Thanks for reading!

Find what you can USE, not what you can pick at.

ronmar
05-30-2002, 01:29 PM
Everyone has a ki field, whether you belive in it or not. Developing ki, though no simple task, can be done by anyone with the proper relaxed mindstate. Hopefully, your ki is more developed than your attacker's, in which case techniques may not be necessary. Extend though the attacker, and strike them with your ki!

I don't agree. However I think this little bit of information might be useful for any beginning aikido students who have't yet discoveres the true way.

Everyone is made of cheese, whether they believe it or not. Developing sufficient cheesiness, though difficult, can be achieved by anyone with the proper blank-slate mindstate. Hopefully, and I speak from experience here, your cheese is more mature than your attacker's, in which case actual techniques should not be necessary. Yes its that easy, and you won't even have to fight anyone to achieve this level of greatness. Extend through the attacker, and strike them with your cheese!!!

giriasis
05-30-2002, 02:19 PM
Chad,

I checked out your profile and you refer to yourself as a novice. I'm glad to hear your enthusiasm in regards to aikido. But it would be better phrased as your experience.

I've been practicing aikido for almost three years now, and it was the concept of "ki" that drew me towards aikido. My experience in aikido is that people get different results from their practice of aikido. Your results don't mean that it should be everyones results. It is just your experience -- a valid one, but just yours. My practice of aikido has made the intangible tangible. I have brought the thought and talk to an actual physical practice. The result of this is far different than what I expected. As a result my concept and point of view towards ki transformed from a mystical force to something much more substantial. And in the end all that matters is the training, because it is the training itself that will transform me. I believe you might discover something similar as you continue your training.

In regards to how and why people here are perceiving you as preaching. Let's look at the words you're using. Please read the following here as a means to understand where some of us might be coming from.

It was not my intention to come to Aikiweb to illicit opinions of those with a "full cup." Sometimes despite our best intentions, harm still may result. Assuming a person's cup is full is a broad assumption and implies that you have something to fill it with. Assumptions can get you in trouble -- especially on the net where you really don't know the people you're talking to. In this assumption you are setting yourself up as a teacher, and we didn't ask for you to teach us. This is the results of your words.

If anyone becomes offended, for whatever reason, I am sorry. Worst case scenario, someone scoffs at this rehtorical nonsense, best case scenario, a new student to Aikido and the Martial Arts elects to train beyond physical strength, trophies, and competition, on a endless quest to free their mind and spirit.It is appreciated that you have apologized and it is encouraging that you want to go beyond the physical. I've discovered that we have to go through the physical to reach beyond. However, if people are indicating that they are being offended by your words, an aiki way to deal with this is to take the effort to understand where they are coming from. Despite the apology, I haven't seen this effort.

When I say a spiritual Atemi, I simply mean, that he/she as the aggressor have by intiating an attack have created an "unnatural" situation. If you are also in the wrong, for whatever reason, it will be intrisically more difficult for you to conteract the disharmony. Your positive spiritual atemi is required. Should you respond with hate, the attacker now has a better reason to attack. If you maintain the spirtual calm that we all strive for, the attacker could theoretically be subdued by your lack of aggression.This concept of ki atemi or spiritual atemi is an interesting one. The use of "should" implies an imperative that must be followed and it also implies judgment. Such as one person should do one thing and not another because it is better. Your message is being lost in usage of such language.

You're correct it is best to respond to an attack without hate, but with calm mind. This is one of the main principles of aikido. But including this in your comment about spiritual atemi, you end up implying (whether intentionally or not) that those who use regular atemi are using it with hate. Physical atemi can easily be used without hate. A good aikido practitioner can easily employ strong atemi with a calm state of mind.

A ki atemi is far more "physical." Everyone has a ki field, whether you belive in it or not. Developing ki, though no simple task, can be done by anyone with the proper relaxed mindstate. Hopefully, your ki is more developed than your attacker's, in which case techniques may not be necessary. Extend though the attacker, and strike them with your ki! Here, you seem to be discussing another essential principle of aikido -- extension. Extension has some very physical attributes though. However, what extension means depends according to each practitioners definition of "ki". That is why someone asked you what your definition of ki is. They asked in an attempt to understand your point of view. I agree that everyone has "ki". But the more difficult and interesting issue is defining what "ki" is.

Atemi on the mat degrades the lesson. When you say "atemi on the mat", is it proper for me to assume that you mean physicalatemi? The main problem with this statement is the word "degrade," because it sets up an oppositional or lecturing tone. Many aikido practitioners do practice physical atemi on the mat. Do you realize you just told these people that they are degrading their lessons? If atemi is done properly and with the proper attitude there is no degradation of the lesson. In fact, in many cases, it is the lesson.

Don't muscle through techniques! Use ki for better results. I couldn't agree more that muscling through technique is poor practice. And utilizing the proper aikido principles (or "ki") enables an aikido practitioner to obtain better results. Yet, the word "don't" is a command telling people what to do.

In conclusion, I'm not trying to degrade your experience, actually from what I can tell you have a similar experience as other aikido practitioners. Because you don't seem to understand where some of us are coming from, I am trying to demonstrate how your words can be interpreted as preachy.

Clearing up this problem is simple. All that needs to be stated at the beginning is -- "I'm new to aikido and this is why I like it so much." Instead of illiciting a "cough, cough", the result perhaps would have been interesting discussions on ki, atemi, and extension.

As the saying goes, "It's not what you say; it's how you say it."

In the spirit of aiki,

chadsieger
05-30-2002, 03:08 PM
Thank you Anne for clarification and critique. We are all novices, true masters don't talk about their martial art on the web, its just the nature of the beast.
I guess the the disharmony between myself and seemingly everyone on my posts is simply due to the fact that I did not properly acclimate myself to the style of communication that already exists. Proper steps should have been taken on my part to prepare each statement I made to not offend anyone. However, I'm not trying to join a community. I figured that people interested in ki would open my posts. Instead, people who didnt believe in ki picked through them and accused me of being "preachy."
My posts are for those who are newly interested in persuing martial arts, those of physically weak stature, those with a handicap, those who are looking for more from the martial arts than pain and tired muscles, or those getting older who wish to continue the martial arts indeffinately.
If you dont agree, I'm sorry, I hope we can still be friends.

Thanks.

giriasis
05-30-2002, 03:49 PM
Chad,

Even though you're not interested in joining this community, you still entered it. So, "When in Rome..."

I understand you need to share with those new to aikido, that is commendable. People new to aikido do come here. They read the posts and they are exposed to all points of view so they can come up with their own interpretation. Please realize that just because someone disagrees with what you say it doesn't means they don't believe in "ki." And it doesn't imply that they think your wrong either. There are many ways up the mountain.

I suggest reading through the forums here to see the various ways people here interpret the meaning of "ki." Some believe it as a mystical force others it is basic body mechanics, but both sides will call it "ki." For most, their view is probably in the middle somewhere. There are just so many various views and as a result "ki" can be hotly discussed and debated. Considering this is disagreement really that surprising? It means the aikido community is dynamic and alive. That's a good thing.

I guess it seems surprising to you that there are so many different views here and that people don't always agree. I have learned not to interpret the harmony of aikido as everyone agreeing. Rather, it's about approaching a conflict in a proactive and positive manner. Aikido is assertiveness training. Conflict is definantly not avoided here. However, people will do their best to avoid flame wars and be as cordial as possible without compromising their point of views.

In the spirit of aiki,

Misogi-no-Gyo
05-30-2002, 04:27 PM
Mr. Sieger,

I have read all of your posts, and would like to comment.

I, like others here on the board, have picked up on your somewhat "inappropriate" tone. Personally, I could care less for "how" you say things, as much as some of the "sensitive" types, aikido often attracts. I, like you, am a "believer" as you might say. However, it is not like "faith" for me, as the instruction I have received directly from my teachers have enabled me to set out and travel on the long path so many others have traveled on before me.

Feedback - To be honest, each time someone contradicts you, you say something to the effect of, "Well that is because you are a doubter of KI" This does little to serve you, bolster your arguments, or others opinions of you. If you think the latter matters not, then consider this: E=MC(squared) - a powerful statement, no? Yes, it is, but not because I said it. It is because someone who came before me (Albert Einstein) put his entire spirit into creating that concept in our society's consciousness. The words are the same, but it is the character of the person who says them that gives the words life, power and meaning (kotodama). You make statements too. To me, they sound more like someone else's words, rather than your own. Moreover, like the way the words E=MC(Squared) are when I use them, the ones you put forth here are words that you don't really seem to have a clear command over.

I have several questions that I would like you to provide clear answers to. It may serve to help me, and other's on this board to better "hear" what it is that you are saying.

1. How long have you been training in Aikido/
2. What other martial arts do you have in your background?
3. How old are you?
4. From whom did you directly learn "ki" or "kokyu"?
5. When you say "teach" what dojo, and on what day/nights do you do this teaching?

Don't get me wrong, no one is doubting your intention. After all, some of what you say has merit. To be blunt though, some of it is completely incorrect - however, that is another matter entirely. As far as "helping" beginners, may I politely recommend waiting until a beginner approaches you with a question, rather than just storming in and making disconnected statements as the basis for starting a new thread. My feeling, having had met many who have a similar tone, you do more to harm the beginner mind with your word-puzzles, than provide any clear understanding, point out a new path to set afoot on, or add encouragement to press on through the often difficult plateaus we experience along the way.

For what its worth, having experienced a wide variety of aikidoka, and having a somewhat open mind, I have yet to meet anyone who sounds off in the way that you do who ever really had any understanding of Ki, Kokyu, Kuzushi, Shizen-ni, Masagatsu-Agatsu-Katsuhayahi, or budo, whatsoever. Of course, this was reflected as much in their low-level techniques, poor ukemi, and other, more anti-social type behavioral patterns, as in their rants about how we should all practice the unbendable arm to expose the secrets of aikido and the universe at large. Again, for what its worth...

ganbattemasu (keep training!)

chadsieger
05-30-2002, 04:49 PM
I DONT CARE ABOUT YOUR PREDISPOSITIONS. No, I am not enlightened. I don't see how anyone can be offended by ANYTHING I have said. I have said that NOBODY is doing ANYTHING wrong. If you READ my statements, instead of reading the REPLYS (which make belive that there is a problem, human nature I suppose), you will see that I am not disillusioned, inexperienced, or trying to hurt anyone. You disagree, FINE. I know that there are an infinate way of explaining anything, just as there are thousands of ways of interpreting ki. Read my posts or dont.
My posts are for those interested/needing. Sorry if I'm messing with your TURF.

Mr. Ravens, you know that I could never convince someone of the existance of ki over the computer. My posts are not for people with there mind made up. Why would someone who doesn't believe in ki join a post called "USE KI" ?
Also, could you please elaborate on which part was "completly incorrect."
Also, also, if you think that putting a lifetime of training into a few posts keep in mind that anytime you use a word that stands for a concept that cannont be described in words, there is someone out there checking to see if you have complete command of every word.

Andy
05-30-2002, 05:01 PM
Originally posted by chadsieger
I DONT CARE ABOUT YOUR PREDISPOSITIONS.
And we're supposed to care about yours? How egotistical and selfish of you.

My posts are not for people with there mind made up. Why would someone who doesn't believe in ki join a post called "USE KI" ?

You're posting onto a public discussion board with absolutely no such criteria such as "If you don't believe in what Chad Sieger writes, then don't read it, don't reply to it, don't disagree with it, and don't (heavens!) challenge what he writes."

You better get used to having what you write scrutinized by those who don't share your exact same "predispositions". This is a discussion board, after all.

Once again, how long have you been training in aikido? Have the creases in your white belt disappeared yet?

shihonage
05-30-2002, 05:09 PM
Originally posted by chadsieger
Read my posts or dont.


I must say, upon re-reading your initial post.

May God have mercy on you once you get into an actual fight and "conquer" your opponent with your "ki" alone, without using any strikes.

giriasis
05-30-2002, 05:57 PM
Chad,

I don't think you get it. You just had someone agree with you about ki but you insult him by shouting?

If your house is built on a strong solid foundation and with strong materials the breezes that blow through will not knock it down. You would be able to maturely handle contrary points of view. If you truely understood that there are various understandings of ki, then you would know that we do believe in ki.

The way you have been responding indicate to the many very experienced people on this board that you don't know what you're talking about. (And don't give me that "I only want to talk to people who don't know about ki" line. What are you trying to do? Recruit for a cult? You only want to be a teacher and not a student?) Your words only exhibit base knowledge and not the depth of understanding.

If you do train tell us how long, with whom, what rank you are, and how old you are. Right now, I think you don't even practice aikido and only have read some books. You think you have some knowledge and somehow you think this gives you the right to teach others. By the maturity of your responses I think your about 13-15 years old.

Otherwise, stop teaching yourself, join a real life dojo and train.

chadsieger
05-30-2002, 06:08 PM
We are all novices.
I know nothing.
The little that I do know, I will post.
Read, dont read.
Anne, I believe and understand (although that always grows) the priciples of which I speak. I know there are different opions/definitions/interpretations.
My voice was raised due to the constant need to defend myself due to other people's belief that I need to________(<--add improvement here).
Read my words, not between the lines, and give me some peace.

Thanks.

giriasis
05-30-2002, 06:16 PM
You call yourself a novice and think you're a master. Yet, you insist you're right. A claim a true master would never make.

chadsieger
05-30-2002, 06:25 PM
Oh.

Erik
05-30-2002, 07:47 PM
Originally posted by Misogi-no-Gyo
I have several questions that I would like you to provide clear answers to. It may serve to help me, and other's on this board to better "hear" what it is that you are saying.

1. How long have you been training in Aikido/
2. What other martial arts do you have in your background?
3. How old are you?
4. From whom did you directly learn "ki" or "kokyu"?
5. When you say "teach" what dojo, and on what day/nights do you do this teaching?

Shaun, I don't necessarily agree with this line of questioning. I understand the intent but part of what I like out here is not measuring someone by rank or other criteria. You either say smart, dumb or whatever things and stand on that merit. Age, rank and sensei status far too often get in the way of intelligence thought. It wsan't a 5th kyu who told me that washing belts removes the ki from them for instance.

To be honest, would you really give what he wrote more substance if it came out of some shihan's mouth? Granted it didn't but I know Chad's status, real or imagined, wouldn't change my opinion of what I read.

Jim23
05-30-2002, 08:37 PM
Originally posted by Erik


Shaun, I don't necessarily agree with this line of questioning. ... Age, rank and sensei status far too often get in the way of intelligence thought.

I agree, stupiditity comes in all colours.

Someone's rank - or lack of rank - doesn't necessarily determine common sense, intelligence or even credibility.

Jim23

Chocolateuke
05-30-2002, 10:34 PM
okay Dal breath in breath out breath in breath out. okay that was for me to get a clear mind...

this is not a command, nor am I going to order you chad or anyone else ( I would get kicked off the forums if I did). But, if you do tell us your rank, orginization, age and stuff like that we do have a better understanding of where your coming from and why. What makes your post intresting to read? why? thats a valid question. what do you have to teach us? ( and everyone has something to teach believe it or not. thats my opinion). We are in the most basic sence a virtual town, full of people who share there hopes, dreams, hardships, and advice to express their ideas and battles through their aikido life. thats whats so great about the fourms, we can see the minds of future teachers, current masters, and generations of people. and Respect is one of the main things we try to have here, we are trying to respect your point of view ( or at least I am.) but how can we when you wont respect our request and ideas? Im trying to Harmonize and hopefully I will. Ill give a litte bio of my self here.

Age: 17
Rank: 1st Kyu
Aikido Styal: Yoshinkan Aikido
Teacher(s): Payet sensei * 5th dan* Tatacho Sensei * 2nd dan*
Hobbies: play computer, read, Aikido, Trying to learn Japanesse,
put off homework. :)

see ist not so hard! I hope I didnt sound Preachy there if I did to anyone I apologize and would love feed back to not be so preachy!

PeterR
05-30-2002, 11:21 PM
Did a search on Allentown PA - only found one Aikido dojo. http://www.kinokawa.org/

chadsieger
05-30-2002, 11:34 PM
Thank you for checking out my home town Mr. Rehse. Hopefully you linked to something interesting about our city.
Our school does not have a website. If you want information about it, feel free to ask.

Thanks.

guest1234
05-31-2002, 12:06 AM
Hey Dallas,

I am too lazy to climb the stairs to pull out the Aiki Expo stuff I brought back... did your sensei do a demo there, the name sounds familiar for some reason (have GOT to start taking gingko...):confused:

PeterR
05-31-2002, 12:46 AM
Well I did - you refused to answer and curiosity got the best of me. Still the web site refers to a dojo leaning heavily towards Ki Society - any connection to yours.

Sure curiosity killed the cat - but the cat didn't have the internet.

Originally posted by chadsieger
Thank you for checking out my home town Mr. Rehse. Hopefully you linked to something interesting about our city.
Our school does not have a website. If you want information about it, feel free to ask.

akiy
05-31-2002, 08:57 AM
Hi Colleen,
Originally posted by ca
I am too lazy to climb the stairs to pull out the Aiki Expo stuff I brought back... did your sensei do a demo there, the name sounds familiar for some reason (have GOT to start taking gingko...):confused:
I'm not Dallas, but I'll say that Payet sensei was there at the Aiki Expo and gave a demonstration. He also translated for Inoue sensei during some of his classes, megaphone in hand. I got to talk to him for a while about his translating Shioda sensei's "Aikido Jinsei" recently.

Despite my limited experience in Yoshinkan aikido, Payet sensei was quite open and invited me to train at his dojo in the future. Seemed like a very nice man.

-- Jun

Paul Clark
05-31-2002, 09:00 AM
Did a search on Allentown PA - only found one Aikido dojo. http://www.kinokawa.org/

Was wondering when someone would think of that.

Hi Chad,

what's your teacher's name?--Is it Minh Sensei as you list next to "dojo" in your profile? who were his teachers, what's his lineage back to the founder?

Maybe knowing where your roots are will help everyone understand where you're coming from.

Paul

chadsieger
05-31-2002, 10:20 AM
Why on earth where you waiting for someone to check on me? Listen to my words and give me some peace.

Thanks.

SeiserL
05-31-2002, 12:28 PM
I deeply appreciate this thread. It reminds me that principles like staying relaxed, grounded, and centered, to enter, blend, get off the line of attack, and never meet resistance with more resistance apply off the mat a well as on.

Thanks,
Until again,

Lynn
Nidan Tenshinkai Aikido
Lucaylucay Kali JKD

chadsieger
05-31-2002, 05:33 PM
I met "resistance" against my character from people that I have never met, for posting my opions, without one written instance of offence to anybody. I can't belive the "free speech on the web" talk is necessary, especially on an Aikido website.
I dint say anybody was doing anything wrong.

Thanks.

creinig
05-31-2002, 07:45 PM
I met "resistance" against my character from people that I have never met, for posting my opions, without one written instance of offence to anybody.

Resistance? Maybe. But I primarily saw people taken aback by your style of writing, curious of your background, of the foundation your writings are based on. Curiosity, turning to suspicion as you evaded the questions.

Try to find the harmony in this thread - there's much of it, just waiting to be seen. ;)

Irony
05-31-2002, 11:34 PM
Maybe you should have blended with their resistance.

Chocolateuke
06-01-2002, 12:27 AM
It is indeed the same Payet Sensei! I talked to him abou the Aiki expo last weekend and he liked it very much! right now he is streesing the importance of moving from your center and brining life into our technque. I am going for Shodan in 3 months under him! He is a nice man, although can be very sever at the same time to dish out whatever disipline I need ( focus). I also know Geordan Reynolds senei who was also at the Expo! but enough names!

Hopefully this thread is working itself out!

les paul
06-03-2002, 05:15 PM
Chadsinger wrote:

Firstly, I don't mean to offend anyone. My intention is not to preach or talk down to anyone. The purpose of my posts are simply to advise those just begining their martial arts journey, those who are dissatisfied with or just looking for more from their training, or those who simply are getting on in years and are looking for a way to make those old techniques still work now that the body is not so willing.

End quote:

I have to come down on the side of Greg Jennings and Misogi-no-Gyo. Real powerfull Atemi waza is a major part of Aikido. Many techniques simply do not work without it.

Reading your posts, Chad, I get the sense your not comfortable with what Aikido actually is. Are you searching for others of like mind? Or expressing what you think Aikido is? Few exsist on this forum that think like you, but they are out there.

To you chad and others who think like you.

It is well written that O-sensei stated many times that Aikido was budo. The last time I checked, one of the principles of Budo was truth.

I don't see much truth in your views on Aikido, considering your outlook on Atemi waza.

I've got to ask "Do you do Randori?"

If yes, then how without real Atemi waza?

chadsieger
06-03-2002, 11:22 PM
Mr. Calugaru,

Yes, to answer your first question, randori is a valued component of our training.

With regard to your second question, "How without real Atemi waza?" I blend with the attackers energy (yokomenuchi, tsuki, grap, ect.), control my oponents center, and redirct the attack using the uke's engery into a throw or hold. Throws have their value, especially when its into the next assailant! Holds can be of value as well, once you have an uke's center, you can control him at will, and you've got yourself an nice shield and a weapon.
Randori is far for complex then what I've described here. But, if the uke is truly trying to attack (as all good uke's should do!), they will "give" you their energy, accept it, use it, and you will never have to atemi again.
However, off the mat, with my life in danger, I would not know what my true budo would look like. My actions would depend on the attacks. Strikes do have value as however, they get people who don't know what they're doing on the ground in a hurry.
Honestly, on some of the inside (which are therefore more dangerous), Aikido does in fact require a physical atemi. So, Ueshiba was correct when he mentioned atemis of the physical variety (every Aikido move does require a ki atemi to be done correctly, whether you believe in ki or not). However, if you use an atemi on every move, how will you ever learn circles, softness, extension, sensitivity, and all of the other qualities that are inherant in training with the techniques correctly?

Thanks for reading!

Andy
06-03-2002, 11:56 PM
Originally posted by chadsieger
However, if you use an atemi on every move, how will you ever learn circles, softness, extension, sensitivity, and all of the other qualities that are inherant in training with the techniques correctly?
Are you saying that those who teach "physical" atemi in aikido are doing incorrect aikido?

Bronson
06-04-2002, 12:16 AM
I dint say anybody was doing anything wrong.

Sure you did.

if you use an atemi on every move, how will you ever learn circles, softness, extension, sensitivity, and all of the other qualities that are inherant in training with the techniques correctly?

I'd agree with Andy on this one. You just told everyone who does atemi in their aikido that they were doing their techniques incorrectly.

Personally I agree with you. I don't like atemi all that much and rarely use it. That doesn't mean I won't use it I just tend to try to find another way first. That's my choice, others have chosen differently. It's not wrong, it's different. Different backgrounds, different histories, different experiences, different lives, different aikido.

One of the things we talk about in our style/dojo is "the correct usage of ki". My understanding of this at this point is to do what is needed when it is needed. If you are blending with the situation and doing what is called for, regardless of the action it is correct aikido. Even if the correct action at the time is to smash the opponents nose like a grape :D Remember I rarely if ever use atemi, but if that was the needed action I would do it without hesitation and wouldn't feel like I'd "failed" with my aikido. Of course the rub lies in learning to tell what is needed and when to apply it...I'll be working on that for quite a while ;)

Just my thoughts,

Bronson

Greg Jennings
06-04-2002, 12:34 AM
Here is a poll I dug up from the poll archive:

http://www.aikiweb.com/polls/results.html?poll_id=46 .

I think it's all dependent on how one trains.

If one trains in aikido to develop ki, harmony, etc., I think atemi is superflous and perhaps even counter-productive.

OTOH, if one is training in aikido as a budo, a martial way, I think awareness of, and therefore practice of, both giving and receiving atemi is *required*. The openings for atemi _are there_. They have to be acknowledged and dealt with.

But that's just my personal opinion.

chadsieger
06-04-2002, 01:22 AM
Practicing the techniques for "the feel" is how we train in Aikido. This enables us to use the attackers energy. Old, young, and physicaly weak alike can conduct effective budo having gained the necessary priciples of capturing an opponets energy and center and utilizing it for their own purposes. This what I understand Aikido to be, and unless an atemi is part of the technique, we see if we can produce the same results without one. If the uke makes it incredibly difficult (hold tight is weak, ki(ing) down is tougher), then if we are forced to make the move work without atemi, boy is it tough! With proper training, it eventually works and another rung is climbed.
No well intentioned way of training is "incorrect." However,
1.You can't always atemi (tied hand, occupied hand, severed hand?)
2.Physical abilty decreases with age, ki(or whatever you call it) does not (that is how physicaly unassuming masters exist, and they do!)
3.Utilize priciples off the mat, not techniques
If any of this makes sense to anyone, if anyone has any questions, or if there is one thing that bothers you, feel free to communicate!

Thanks for reading!

Chuck Clark
06-04-2002, 02:16 AM
There is a lot more to understanding "atemi" than just striking or hitting to injure. Atemi also means to "stun" and can be a major part of any stragegy of waza. It can be done with any amount of energy and speed. Depends on what you're using it for.

Regards,

PeterR
06-04-2002, 06:28 AM
Originally posted by Chuck Clark There is a lot more to understanding "atemi" than just striking or hitting to injure. Atemi also means to "stun" and can be a major part of any stragegy of waza. It can be done with any amount of energy and speed. Depends on what you're using it for.
Hi Chuck - you've been quite lately. I'ld also like to add that it can involve other parts of the body besides the hard points. Irimi nage is an atemi waza for example.

Greg Jennings
06-04-2002, 08:38 AM
Originally posted by PeterR

Irimi nage is an atemi waza for example.

Just to be 100% fair, I'd have to say that it depends on the way the technique is done.

The way my instructor does it, the inside of the "irimi arm" definitely can make contact. Oh, the joy of having rough canvas smeared across one's face!

I know other really great instructors, though, that teach that all the work is done with the trunk of the body and the "irimi arm" is just there to "give shape".

Shifting back to the main thread:

In the way my instructor teaches, atemi is there, newaza is there, reversals are there, a host of possibilities are there. To train without heightening one's awareness of them is to "take your partner cheap". It's an insult.

Best Regards,

Misogi-no-Gyo
06-04-2002, 09:30 AM
chadsieger:

I am planning on being in your area in late June, or early July. I would very much like to come and practice at your dojo, with you and your teacher. If this is at all possible, would you be so kind to help arrange this for me. Thank you.

les paul
06-04-2002, 06:10 PM
Chad wrote:
Mr. Calugaru,

Yes, to answer your first question, randori is a valued component of our training.

With regard to your second question, "How without real Atemi waza?" I blend with the attackers energy (yokomenuchi, tsuki, grap, ect.), control my oponents center, and redirct the attack using the uke's engery into a throw or hold. Throws have their value, especially when its into the next assailant! Holds can be of value as well, once you have an uke's center, you can control him at will, and you've got yourself an nice shield and a weapon.
Randori is far for complex then what I've described here.
End Quote:


Ok...you have done some randori! Cool!


Chad wrote:
But, if the uke is truly trying to attack (as all good uke's should do!), they will "give" you their energy, accept it, use it, and you will never have to atemi again.
However, off the mat, with my life in danger, I would not know what my true budo would look like. My actions would depend on the attacks. Strikes do have value as however, they get people who don't know what they're doing on the ground in a hurry.
End quote:

This is true, however it souds like you would/might use atemi waza if the situation warrented its use?

Chad wrote:
Honestly, on some of the inside (which are therefore more dangerous), Aikido does in fact require a physical atemi. So, Ueshiba was correct when he mentioned atemis of the physical variety (every Aikido move does require a ki atemi to be done correctly, whether you believe in ki or not). However, if you use an atemi on every move, how will you ever learn circles, softness, extension, sensitivity, and all of the other qualities that are inherant in training with the techniques correctly?

Thanks for reading!
End quote:

I'm glad to see you practice randori. It appears there is some truth/budo in it. And your view point is right on depending on atemi waza to much.


It just that I've had some experience in a diffrent art other than Aikido. Thus I've learned skilled attackers doen't commit to attacks in ways that the unskilled do. Atemi waza greatly inhances and ease our ability to conduct ourselves in such situations when faced by skilled attackers.

Sometimes a good fierce punch in the nose in order to shomen-irimi-nage is our only option.

I understand that this isn't how some people view Aikido. But if confronted by a skilled aggressor who knows when to and when "not" to attack, atemi waza opens many options against this type of foe. Nothing says you have to actually strike them.

Chuck Clark deffinition of Atemi waza is great!

We all know Atemi waza is great for multiple opponents who attack at the same time also. How many times in Randori have you seen one attacker stoped by an atemi waza while the other is dealt with first?

What happens if we are confined to a small space unable to move?

There are just too many reasons why Atemi waza "SHOULD" be practiced in all Aikido Ryu to metion.

The same could be said for learning ground fighting skills.

These are just points of contention and nothing else.

What's important is

Aikido offers many things to many people. Hence, it means many things to these said people.


It's been good talking to you Chad.

PeterR
06-04-2002, 08:10 PM
Originally posted by Greg Jennings
I know other really great instructors, though, that teach that all the work is done with the trunk of the body and the "irimi arm" is just there to "give shape".
Hi Greg;

I am a strong believer in using the trunk of the body. When doing aigamae-ate for example (read standard irimi-nage except that hand makes contact with chin) the hand doesn't push or hit but almost acts as a guide. The power comes from the hips.

For the rest of the thread out there - randori varies a lot. From low level free-style with multiple partners to something akin to battle royal. When I talk about randori I tend to mean two people resisting, countering, more like Judo randori. Personally speaking the phrase "We do randori" on this list has no meaning especially in the context of budo. Sorry if I sound a bit jaded.

Greg Jennings
06-04-2002, 10:45 PM
Originally posted by PeterR

Hi Greg;

I am a strong believer in using the trunk of the body. When doing aigamae-ate for example (read standard irimi-nage except that hand makes contact with chin) the hand doesn't push or hit but almost acts as a guide. The power comes from the hips.


<greg in his best pseudo bahamian accent replies>
No Mon, I mean, like _really_ there _only_ to provide shape. No contact a'tall. Some, dat is, not us.

<back in his normal, twangy, Tennessee/Texas accent, greg goes on>
We actually do it both ways, but we don't see anything wrong with there being contact, even rough contact, between the "irimi arm" and the neck/chin. But we're kind of unrefined. <by choice(?)>.

Best Regards,

chadsieger
06-04-2002, 10:53 PM
Thanks for replying!

It my held belief that a any newly appointed shodan, who has yet to atemi in his/her career, who is comfortable with most techniques, comfortable with the feel of using an opponents energy, and well versed in the pricipals can learn how to add atemis in under an hour. My suggestion would be to supplement his/her Aikido training with boxing, tai chi, kung fu, ect., for an hour on the weekends during thier Aikido training.
My point simply is this; atemis will come naturally with learning the techniques. Look for opportunities to strike constantly while training of course, but hip/body/ki(whatever) usage is where Aikido derives its power. Concentrate on using that power for maximum results.


Thanks for reading!

PeterR
06-04-2002, 11:27 PM
That's assuming you are limiting your definition of atemi to hard strike with a closed fist. Atemi waza in its full sense is not something you just pick up.

Aikido contains strikes, its there, it always has been there. I don't understand the purpose of limiting your training in this respect and then going somewhere else to learn what you eliminated.

Originally posted by chadsieger
Thanks for replying!

It my held belief that a any newly appointed shodan, who has yet to atemi in his/her career, who is comfortable with most techniques, comfortable with the feel of using an opponents energy, and well versed in the pricipals can learn how to add atemis in under an hour. My suggestion would be to supplement his/her Aikido training with boxing, tai chi, kung fu, ect., for an hour on the weekends during thier Aikido training.
My point simply is this; atemis will come naturally with learning the techniques. Look for opportunities to strike constantly while training of course, but hip/body/ki(whatever) usage is where Aikido derives its power. Concentrate on using that power for maximum results.


Thanks for reading!

Bruce Baker
06-05-2002, 06:11 PM
Most of the people who answer the questions, here on the Aikiweb, really do mean well ... but not all of them have a backround in concepts of meditation or can execute these inner mind concepts in physical Aikido practice. So let it go.

There are, however, ways to clear the mind and open a channel from what you percieve in your mind to what can be physically achieved by the human body. Many of these concepts are found in religious studies, and in yoga manuals, but in many ways our continued Aikido practice trys to adopt some of these principles in an attempt to overcome people either conquering our own physical/mental state with force or mental suggestions.

So ... what the hell does that all mean?

Yeah, you can use forms of mental discipline to enhance your physical strength and performance.

Does that simplify it for some of you knot-heads?

Hey, we tell ourselves and others to concetrate on what we are doing, or pay attention to what is going on, why?

Because we are trying to get the mental process alligned with the physical body.

So, although we have a new explorer on the scene, let's try to be polite?

Of course, I could envite all of you disbelievers to come to Atlantic City, being a reasonable vacation excuse, and come play with Bruce and show me I am wrong? It would be great fun! I like nothing more than to be proven wrong, it continues my education of MA with punctuation.

On the other hand, I could be right?

In that case, I might be able to show you how to connect to a strength beyond the physical strength we all take for granted when we are young? Wouldn't that be worth the trip?

Love hurts ... nothing but love for Ya'all.

Just kidding.

By the way, Chris, you are close enough to some of Dillman's pressure point guys, so maybe you should check out a seminar about Chi/Ki? But do continue to practice Aikido without thinking about attacking or violence, it is best way to connect the puzzle of Martial Arts. Aikido really has some great training techniques that are not as damaging as some martial arts, you will stay healthier, longer with your Aikido practice.

And remember, let a couple of days go by before you answer goading posts.

SeiserL
06-05-2002, 06:43 PM
Yes, I would have to admit that where the head goes the body tends to follow. Applies to Aikido and psychology.

I do often recommend Aikido physical practice for the body alignment and movement, and I certainly support that the arms guide and transfer the power from the center/hara/hips. Allows you to use the entire body.

I also suggest that before one abandons the mind and clear it by meditation technqiues they spend some time uncovering and resolving mental/emotional blockages that due to history are on automatic pilot. Make sure a new direction is select before you take it off manual pilot and put it back on auto.

I also learned and recommend that the first front of self-defense is good manners and a lessening of the ego that any one us have all the answers, that our way is the only right way, or that everything is about us. Learn not to take things personally. Enter and blend, gotta love it.

Relax, breath, and enjoy yourself.

Until again,

Lynn

chadsieger
06-06-2002, 01:50 AM
Mr. Raven and Mr. Baker, if you have not received the emails that I sent you, please let me know.

Thanks.