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Mary Eastland
02-22-2011, 07:55 AM
Saw a guy repeatedly start to get up after being taken down while the instructor was saying "stay down until I let you back up". The instructor kept releasing the lock because he didn't want to hurt the guy. But after about the third time he just left it on. Didn't crank anything but the guy came up and ran right into it, hurting his shoulder. And he got upset that he was injured. Idiot.

I question this. The instuctor could have let him up and used another uke to illustrate his or her point. People shouldn't be injured because of their ignorance.
What do you think?
Mary

FiuzA
02-22-2011, 08:01 AM
I think uke should stick, in that situation, with sensei's instruction to stick to the ground.

Sounds like a fair and reasonable observation on sensei's behalf.

This is the type of situation where no one wants to get hurt but "incidents" happen. This case, in a situation perfectly avoidable.

Other than that, I believe Aikido's environment is such a controled one, that if people have good intentions it's quite difficult to people get hurt/injured.

Unless of course, people aims to actually... hurt others.

It's easy to hurt people in Aikido, but it's also easy (or at least one should work in that direction) to not to.

raul rodrigo
02-22-2011, 08:03 AM
People get injured in training because of their ignorance all the time, not because the instructor is careless but because people don't listen. Happened to me a lot before. It may happen again. How much more explicit does the teacher have to be? "Stay down until I let you up."

RonRagusa
02-22-2011, 08:52 AM
People get injured in training because of their ignorance all the time, not because the instructor is careless but because people don't listen. Happened to me a lot before. It may happen again. How much more explicit does the teacher have to be? "Stay down until I let you up."

Hi Raul,

Yes, the teacher was explicit in his instruction. However, if it was me and my uke wouldn't stay down, for whatever reason, I'd have let him up and chosen another uke who better understood the point I was trying to make. Speculating on the incident Keith referred to in his post, I'd say that there was a clash of egos involved and that the instructor let his get the better of him. A learning experience for both parties. I hope they both learned something from it.

Best,

Ron

Keith Larman
02-22-2011, 09:07 AM
Since you've pulled something from my thread...

I didn't give a full accounting either. He was trying to demonstrate how to hold the person down momentarily, but the uke kept getting up before he could make his point. After repeated warnings that he should stay until the technique is finished the instructor left it on a bit longer, but still let it go before injury. The point was to show that it would hurt and *could* injure if he tried to get up. One point to make was about Uke's safety which this guy was ignoring. Regardless, he wasn't injured, he just felt more pain than he'd like. There is a significant difference between feeling a transient pain and being injured.

Mary Eastland
02-22-2011, 09:19 AM
Keith said: " There is a significant difference between feeling a transient pain and being injured ."
That is very true, Keith. I would rather use an uke that understood the point I was making rather than use someone who is more likely to hurt themselves and take the focus away from whatever I am teaching.
Mary

lbb
02-22-2011, 09:21 AM
Unless they've been in the military, most adults aren't used to situations where they really have to do what they're told, immediately. Their reaction to a command to not do something, most likely, is "What? Why--" while proceeding to do what they were doing anyway. On the one hand, if you're going to train in aikido and take the role of uke, you have to lose that habit fast. On the other hand, I think it is probably a fairly common reaction, although the individual in this example took it to an extreme. Maybe the answer is to have the "safety talk" with all newbies in which you explain that when one of your seniors tells you to do something in practice ("turn your center towards me", "stay down until I let you up", whatever), to just do what they're told in the interests of safety, and get an explanation afterward. Some people aren't going to be able to work with that...that's okay, there are plenty of hobbies out there where not doing what you're told won't send you to the hospital, and I'm sure we wish them every success in their chosen pursuit. But not aikido.

lbb
02-22-2011, 09:27 AM
Keith said: " There is a significant difference between feeling a transient pain and being injured ."
That is very true, Keith. I would rather use an uke that understood the point I was making rather than use someone who is more likely to hurt themselves and take the focus away from whatever I am teaching.

I'm going to call false dichotomy on this, with a generous dose of armchair quarterbacking. You've reduced the situation to two clear-cut choices: using an uke that "understood the point" (assuming one was available -- this was, after all, the very point that you are trying to teach, and you would hardly have been trying to teach it if everyone already understood it), and using "someone who is more likely to hurt themselves" (assuming that you have prescient knowledge that this person would act in a manner directly counter to instruction and against the feedback that their body is giving them). Reducing a situation to two choices is attractive for the purpose of constructing an argument, but it's also often simplistic. In real life, the choices are seldom so clear, nor are they so neatly divided into exactly two choices. It seems to me that in this situation, having only one choice, or having several choices, are at least as likely as having precisely two.

Keith Larman
02-22-2011, 09:52 AM
Mary (M), I understand completely. In this case, however, the uke was a sankyu with a number of years of experience. He knew better. I was watching it happen and I was astounded at how bullheaded he was being. And in this case the level of pain was nothing more than one would normally experience in a more enthusiastic practice, but the uke was actually angry that the instructor put on the control the way it frankly should be put on. All while the instructor was trying to show him that he *couldn't* get up the way he was at the point he was getting up without a serious risk of injury. It was just a stupid thing to do, like trying to roll out of a pin in a way that could dislocate your shoulder. He was told this repeatedly and the guy had been training more than long enough to know better. And the instructor still let it go in time to prevent the injury.

I don't know what was going through uke's head. But it wasn't good. And this guy was also quite brutal in his techniques to other students at times having been talked to about it a number of times. He was eventually shown the door.

In other words, there was a vastly larger context in this case. But in some sense it was fairly simple. He was coming up out of a control that would normally require nage to either hurt or injure uke should they not comply. Apart from disregarding what he was being told by a Shihan repeatedly the guy showed horrible judgement and *did* know better.

Shadowfax
02-22-2011, 09:54 AM
People get injured because of their ignorance all the time. Just last night we had a bad snow storm. People were warned to stay off the roads because it was unsafe. Lots of people drove anyway. Quite a few ended up injured. That's just life.

When I entered into aikido training, I did so fully aware that what I was taking up was a martial art. I understand that to mean that I will be learning and experiencing techniques that have a high potential for injury. If I am stupid enough to disregard and disobey the instructions of my teacher, who is giving said instructions in order to protect me from injury, I think I deserve whatever I get.

In nature the stupid either die young or learn very quickly. Hopefully the fool learned his lesson.

ninjaqutie
02-22-2011, 10:58 AM
In this situation it sounds to me like the person knew better and was asking for trouble. It is good to know that the instructor dropped proving his point in order to prevent injury to the student. I have seen my instructor ask for another uke if the present one isn't taking ukemi right and he is afraid they will injur themselves.

jonreading
02-22-2011, 11:40 AM
Ledyard Sensei wrote about a guy at at a seminar who injured a student during training. Flash back 20 years and maybe that guy pushed his sensei and sensei didn't push back.

This kind of thing is common in aikido. If I had one serious problem with aikido dojos and sensei/instructors it would be that we put our students in harm far too often. Obese students, students with HIV, student with mental disorders, bullies, etc. The list of whack-jobs and people who should not be on the mat that we let train is so long its ridiculous. Sensei's job is to provide a safe environment in which to train.

It's sounds harsh, but if anyone in the dojo gets hurt, that is sensei's responsibility. We are far less vigilant in looking out for our students and we are far more tolerant of poor behavior. I don't know if its because of political correctness, I don't know if its because we are not empowered to act even if we wanted to. But whether sensei hurts bad uke, or bad uke hurts another student - Sensei's job is to protect her students.

When you encounter a situation in which uke deliberately ignores sensei, that is a problem, It's not a misunderstanding; it's not a difference of opinion; it's not a clash of egos. It is insubordination. If uke is allowed to be insubordinate to sensei, do you think any other student has a chance of working with this guy? No. And in allowing the behavior you are also demonstrating to class that bully behavior is tolerated.

Turn the other cheek? Why, so you can't see this guy go off and abuse other students? No. I am sorry. I see no benefit from ignoring this behavior. Some day that guy may teach, or reach a level beyond reproach.

I think you can only mitigate the response; was I too hard, was I too soft? If you want to argue whether the level of response was appropriate... well, that's a different argument.

lbb
02-22-2011, 11:55 AM
Jon, are you saying that people with HIV should not be allowed to train?

FiuzA
02-22-2011, 12:17 PM
Jon, are you saying that people with HIV should not be allowed to train?

Or obese, for that matter :)

Mary Eastland
02-22-2011, 01:13 PM
I'm going to call false dichotomy on this, with a generous dose of armchair quarterbacking. You've reduced the situation to two clear-cut choices: using an uke that "understood the point" (assuming one was available -- this was, after all, the very point that you are trying to teach, and you would hardly have been trying to teach it if everyone already understood it), and using "someone who is more likely to hurt themselves" (assuming that you have prescient knowledge that this person would act in a manner directly counter to instruction and against the feedback that their body is giving them). Reducing a situation to two choices is attractive for the purpose of constructing an argument, but it's also often simplistic. In real life, the choices are seldom so clear, nor are they so neatly divided into exactly two choices. It seems to me that in this situation, having only one choice, or having several choices, are at least as likely as having precisely two.

I am not arguing with anyone. I thought Keith made an interesting point. I am not trying to convince anyone to be different.
I am talking about how I teach. I pick my ukes according to what I want to show. I know that if I pick Charlie, Charlie is going to work very hard to help me. I know if I pick Mr. Third Kyu, I have a wild card. That seems pretty simple to me.
Mary

grondahl
02-22-2011, 01:14 PM
What about obese instructors? Can we really trust people that canīt handle their own food-intake to teach us refinement of character etc..

...Obese students, students with HIV, student with mental disorders, bullies, etc. The list of whack-jobs and people who should not be on the mat that we let train is so long its ridiculous. Sensei's job is to provide a safe environment in which to train.



* Iīm not skinny myself, this is not an attack on fat people.

Keith Larman
02-22-2011, 01:28 PM
Just realized I never made another thing perfectly clear. This shihan gets out and practices on the mat when it is time to practice. He'll walk the floor helping, but if things are going well he'll join in. In this case it wasn't during his "teaching in front of the class" that this occurred. As a matter of fact I was the uke for that demonstration. It was when we broke into small groups to practice when he joined in not liking what he saw the guy doing. As a matter of fact the sensei also took ukemi from the guy 4 times showing him the proper way to lay out. Then when it was sensei's turn to be nage, well, that's when the guy kept being a jerk about it. So it wasn't a case of sensei not picking the right uke for demonstration, I know how to take the ukemi properly and I know full well that when I'm twisted in that position to just wait.

Frankly I told the story more about how the guy overreacted to being shown why you don't do what he was doing, especially after receiving explicit instruction from a shihan about what to do. My point (in the original thread) was about how people can be mightily stupid when it comes to some things. And in the case of the story I was telling the guy received a small jolt of pain, nothing most of us haven't experienced before during a sankyo when something goes wrong, either due to our own stupidity or due to nage inexperience.

I am ever so sorry I ever told the story.

Janet Rosen
02-22-2011, 01:32 PM
Keith, I totally "got" what you were saying from the git-go.

jonreading
02-22-2011, 01:32 PM
Speaking as an instructor, I am saying that I am responsible for every person I allow on the mat, including those who raise the risk of injury to themselves or to another student. If that person brings himself or another student to harm, I am responsible for that action. I am not sure if there is a denifite answer if someone should or should not be allowed to train - the decision lies with the instructor to choose the odds of risk to which he exposes his students; students can also be a risk to themselves too.

Personally, I am adverse to allowing a student with HIV to train in general population aikido. Obviously, I would rather a student tell me since HIPPA would prevent me from telling anyone and I would seek alternative training methods. But, I would have to hear a pretty good argument for training before I would put the other students at risk of exposure to HIV. Our dojo has a history and prevalence for blood contact in our training either through existing open wounds, new wounds and wound/wound contact. Not to mention the lower risk blood/eye contact risk. And to be clear, I am also adverse to other transmittable diseases such as TB, Meningitis, Hepatitis B, Malaria, etc., in class.

As for Obesity... It depends on the level of obesity; I am not talking spare tire heavy, I am talking walking up stairs is a problem heavy. If the student posses a health risk I usually refer them to a weight specialist until they reach a point where they can train with little health risk. And again, my stance here covers obesity, heart disease, and other at-risk conditions that may result in injury from strenuous exercise.

I have never had to make a decision to allow a student with HIV to train. I did refer a morbidly obese student to undertake a weight reduction program before undergoing strenuous exercise (which included aikido). I did kick off a student with communicable Malaria. Oh, and we have a couple of students who work at Yerkes and are sometimes exposed to Herpes from ...er.. touching their monkeys (sorry guys); we keep on eye on them when they've been exposed.

I have these policies because I would rather be safe than sorry, I have never had a student have a heart attack on the mat. I have never had a student have a stroke on the mat. I have never have a student aquire a communicable disease on my mat. I aim to keep those figures at never. It is a conservative stance, but one I choose because I do not wish to be responsible for the death of a student or the participation in a student aquiring a life-altering commuicable disease; nor do I wish to put my students where they may feel responsible for above situations either.

C. David Henderson
02-22-2011, 01:53 PM
**** [The] shihan gets out and practices on the mat when it is time to practice. He'll walk the floor helping, but if things are going well he'll join in. In this case it wasn't during his "teaching in front of the class" that this occurred. As a matter of fact I was the uke for that demonstration. It was when we broke into small groups to practice when he joined in not liking what he saw the guy doing. As a matter of fact the sensei also took ukemi from the guy 4 times showing him the proper way to lay out. Then when it was sensei's turn to be nage, well, that's when the guy kept being a jerk about it. So it wasn't a case of sensei not picking the right uke for demonstration, I know how to take the ukemi properly and I know full well that when I'm twisted in that position to just wait.


I was already thinking this was sankyu's responsibility; these details make it a whole lot clearer to me.

Teaching shihan comes over and takes ukemi for sankyu to show him what he should be doing; sankyu apparently made no attempt to change what he was doing as a result.

Sankyu repeatedly ignored stated instructions from shihan to stay down until shihan releases joint lock.

When shihan gives a physical hint at how bad an idea sankyu's continued failure to follow instructions really is by letting sankyu experience joint lock, sankyu complains he experienced some pain in the lesson.

To me, this behavior is hard to fathom. If the price for this extended foolishness was minor discomfort, I think its because it wasn't a clash of egos. Well, maybe the crash of an ego, hitting the mat...

FWIW

dps
02-22-2011, 01:55 PM
Hi Jon,

Just for clarity sake HIPAA rules apply only to covered entities as defined by the Department of Health and Human Services,

http://www.hhs.gov/ocr/privacy/hipaa/understanding/coveredentities/index.html

Martial Arts Dojos are not covered entities.

dps

lbb
02-22-2011, 03:20 PM
Jon, thanks for clarifying. It's evident that you have a good understanding of the actual risks involved (as opposed to, for example, those who would exclude HIV+ people but apparently have no qualms about much more easily transmissible diseases such as hep B). I have practical reservations about the effectiveness of disease transmission by trying to exclude infected people from practice: even if all carriers are aware of their status (many are not) and all fully disclose their status to you (many will not), I still think that the practical approach is for non-infected people to be aware of the risks of disease transmission, and to assume responsibility for their own safety rather than expect that all infected people will go through life in some sort of self-imposed quarantine. Adopting a policy that excludes infected people enables the non-infected to continue to go through life, and blood-drawing aikido practice, in a state of dangerous ignorance.

BTW, I have never heard that malaria was transmissible between humans and would be interested to know more.

Janet Rosen
02-22-2011, 04:11 PM
BTW, I have never heard that malaria was transmissible between humans and would be interested to know more.

Sorry for the thread drift...My understanding as public health nurse is the parasite is transmissible via mosquito, via blood transfusion, or via mother>fetus.
I note that blood transfusion is specified, rather than simple exposure to the blood or other bodily fluids more typical of the transmission of hepatitis, HIV, etc.

raul rodrigo
02-22-2011, 06:12 PM
I think it's going too far to say that the instructor "let his ego get the better of him." The instructor did his job.

I've taught classes where uke struggles against a lock despite my warnings. At times, tapping uke's head with my free hand is enough reminder that I can do a lot more damage if I wish. At others, you have to let the lock deliver the message. No malice, but no slackening of the waza, either.

kewms
02-22-2011, 06:46 PM
If someone hasn't learned that wrestling with a shihan is a bad idea by sankyu, when is he going to learn?

Part of ukemi is learning to protect yourself. That includes learning not to do stupid things. A little pain is a small price to pay if it saved him from a future shoulder dislocation.

Katherine

Ketsan
02-22-2011, 07:39 PM
I question this. The instuctor could have let him up and used another uke to illustrate his or her point. People shouldn't be injured because of their ignorance.
What do you think?
Mary

I expect to be injured because of my ignorance. That's the way of the world, why should it be different on the mat? If a person is not ready to be injured they shouldn't be on the mat.

If he doesn't believe what he's told why should he believe what happens when the instructor swaps him for a more co-operative uke? It's already established that he doesn't listen to the instructor and that clearly he believes the instructor is lying to him about the possibility of injury, swaping him for another uke isn't going to change that.

That being the case injury is the only path to learning in this situation and if he isn't willing to accept responsibility for his own injury despite being warned then he should be asked to correct his attitude or leave the dojo.

Budo is about learning to accept reality, not finding ways of avoiding reality.

jonreading
02-22-2011, 07:46 PM
Mary-

I appreciate the comments. I don't know if I would go as far as to imply that my [non-infected] students "... continue to go through life, and blood-drawing aikido practice, in a state of dangerous ignorance." That seems pretty judgmental at least. If you wish to critique my directions please direct you comments towards me. My students are some of the best and well-educated people I know, many who possess some level of medical training. They understand the reasons under which I ask them to train and why I ask them to do so.

My conservative stance is because I do not believe it to be fair to direct the majority to assume the individuals with whom they are training are infectious or pose a risk to their safety. I believe students put their trust in me that I will minimize the risk of injury to them when they train. Because I have that trust we can safely train very hard.

I apologize for the thread drift. My original point was to state that we are responsible for the risks we bring into the dojo. We are also responsible for any... corrective measures than are required to maintain a safe training environment. I did not intend to start a PC debate over a specific risk. I believe the HIV debate has several threads elsewhere that are probably better for those who wish to continue that debate.

Ketsan
02-22-2011, 07:49 PM
Hi Raul,

Yes, the teacher was explicit in his instruction. However, if it was me and my uke wouldn't stay down, for whatever reason, I'd have let him up and chosen another uke who better understood the point I was trying to make. Speculating on the incident Keith referred to in his post, I'd say that there was a clash of egos involved and that the instructor let his get the better of him. A learning experience for both parties. I hope they both learned something from it.

Best,

Ron

The clash was between the students ego and reality and reality won. Sure he could have been swapped for another uke but that only teaches him that the teacher is lying. The technique is clearly ineffective, that's why the teacher has called for a more co-operative uke. An act of kindness has denied the student the injury he needed to grow.

jonreading
02-22-2011, 08:07 PM
Sorry my edit time ran out attending to children.

The last thing I wanted to address was Mary's comments about the assumed risk of training. I think it is fair to state that as students of a martial art we assume a risk in our training. We should be vigilant and aware of those risks and take action to minimize them. This action is both against physical injury and medical risk.

lbb
02-22-2011, 08:12 PM
I appreciate the comments. I don't know if I would go as far as to imply that my [non-infected] students "... continue to go through life, and blood-drawing aikido practice, in a state of dangerous ignorance." That seems pretty judgmental at least.

That wasn't exactly what I said. I stated that this practice enables people to remain ignorant. Obviously this would not include people who already know better by virtue of knowledge gained outside your dojo. I feel that a policy of "no people with (fill in the blank)", stated as such, has some dangerous holes in it, partly because most people are not aware of their own status (there are a lot of blood-borne diseases out there, and most people never get tested for any of them), and partly because it doesn't really address the facts of how blood-borne pathogens are transmitted (the risks of HIV transmission are very different from the risks of hep B transmission, for example).

Trying to bring this back to the subject of the thread, consider the example of a student whose physical condition means that aikido training is a serious strain (for example, a non-infectious medical condition). This goes beyond ukemi and into the rigors of the training itself. What is the instructor's responsibility to curtail this student's activities (or is there one)?

crbateman
02-22-2011, 11:05 PM
Just my $.02 (pre-tax), but I think both parties share the responsibility here. The uke erred because he did not follow instructions, but the instructor could have chosen to release the lock yet again and avoid injuring his student. It's never OK to injure, possibly seriously, just to prove a point. Get another uke. The same message would be sent, without the drama. There's a big difference between a little pain and risk of lasting injury. Bad moves all around...

Lyle Laizure
02-22-2011, 11:15 PM
I question this. The instuctor could have let him up and used another uke to illustrate his or her point. People shouldn't be injured because of their ignorance.
What do you think?
Mary

I don't know. There doesn't seem to be enough information.

Keith Larman
02-22-2011, 11:17 PM
Again, as I said before, this thread was started by taking a short comment out of context of another thread. The instructor did *NOT* injure the student. The instructor allowed the student to come up into a sankyo and feel that he was locked up and that it was painful. It was not more than what you'd find in any relatively high level practice. He was NOT injured.

Keith Larman
02-22-2011, 11:20 PM
Okay, I officially give up. Sheesh.

Gorgeous George
02-23-2011, 12:40 AM
Mary-

I appreciate the comments. I don't know if I would go as far as to imply that my [non-infected] students "... continue to go through life, and blood-drawing aikido practice, in a state of dangerous ignorance." That seems pretty judgmental at least. If you wish to critique my directions please direct you comments towards me. My students are some of the best and well-educated people I know, many who possess some level of medical training. They understand the reasons under which I ask them to train and why I ask them to do so.

My conservative stance is because I do not believe it to be fair to direct the majority to assume the individuals with whom they are training are infectious or pose a risk to their safety. I believe students put their trust in me that I will minimize the risk of injury to them when they train. Because I have that trust we can safely train very hard.

I apologize for the thread drift. My original point was to state that we are responsible for the risks we bring into the dojo. We are also responsible for any... corrective measures than are required to maintain a safe training environment. I did not intend to start a PC debate over a specific risk. I believe the HIV debate has several threads elsewhere that are probably better for those who wish to continue that debate.

I like your approach, Jon.
A few weeks ago, someone was bleeding from their hand, while training; I knew nothing of his life, or any diseases he might have, so seeing his blood all over the gis of people was quite un-nerving, and I was glad not to train with him.

It's an atmosphere I didn't like to be in, and I don't think I could focus on training if I knew my partner had a communicable disease; I think safety-first is the best approach, and I commend your looking after your students.

Eva Antonia
02-23-2011, 02:48 AM
Hello,

here in Belgium we have to undergo a medical test once a year, if not we aren't allowed to do aikido. So IF I had HIV, Hepatitis or a dangerous heart condition, whatever, it would be the doctor's decision to allow me to do aikido, not the dojo cho's responsibility. But I don't have the least idea which are the criteria of exclusion....

In our dojo it happens from time to time that someone gets wounded, but I never saw anyone shrinking back from training with that person thinking he would be infected. I'd think the risk is minimal - there should be two open wounds coming into contact, not some drops of blood dripping from a lip you've bitten during awkward ukemi....

As to the sankyu...I'd think he got what he asked for.

Best regards,

Eva

raul rodrigo
02-23-2011, 09:22 AM
I think some are reading into Keith's story what they want to see. To my mind: Keith was there, he knows the shihan and the sankyu, I'm willing to take his word for what happened.

Mary Eastland
02-23-2011, 10:05 AM
Again, as I said before, this thread was started by taking a short comment out of context of another thread. The instructor did *NOT* injure the student. The instructor allowed the student to come up into a sankyo and feel that he was locked up and that it was painful. It was not more than what you'd find in any relatively high level practice. He was NOT injured.
Hi Keith:
I am not commenting on what happened in that specific incident...I used it as a jumping off point for discussion. I don't understand why you are getting so upset. Mary

lbb
02-23-2011, 10:17 AM
Hi Keith:
I am not commenting on what happened in that specific incident...I used it as a jumping off point for discussion. I don't understand why you are getting so upset. Mary

That's not how it seemed to me when I read the post that began this thread. You quoted an account of specific incident and then said:

"I question this. The instuctor could have let him up and used another uke to illustrate his or her point. People shouldn't be injured because of their ignorance."

That sure sounds to me like you were finding fault with the conduct of that instructor in that particular instance (and blaming him for something that did not happen -- injury), and not using the incident as some sort of abstract "jumping off point". It seems fairly obvious to me why Keith would be exasperated, if indeed he is (I know that I would be).

raul rodrigo
02-23-2011, 10:23 AM
And then there were speculations that "there was a clash of egos involved and that the instructor let his get the better of him." That's a judgment made on the skills and ethics of the teacher. By people who weren't there.

C. David Henderson
02-23-2011, 10:50 AM
I haven't seen a post from anyone who felt responsibility (some, most, all) lay with the "instructor" that has taken into account the additional facts Keith offered to clarify what occurred.

We really have two scenarios here:

Instructor calls up uke to demonstrate technique. Uke doesn' follow instructions. Instructor, frustrated, injures uke to make a point.

This one did not happen. Whatever one might say about it, this simply didn't occur here.

Teaching Shihan comes over to address an issue he sees in experienced Sankyu's ukemi for sankyo. He even takes ukemi himself to show Sankyu how to avoid the problem. Sankyu continues to take ukemi incorrectly, and ignores further instructions when he is again taking ukemi. Shihan finally allows Sankyu to puts the sankyo lock on himself through improper ukemi. Sankyu complains that, when applied, Shihan's sankyo hurt. Sankyu was not, however, injured.

This one did happen.

So, what to people think about what actually occurred?

Are any of the differences between what you originally thought happened and what actually happened important to your opinion about what actually happened?

:Why?

:Why not?

Regards,

RonRagusa
02-23-2011, 10:57 AM
The fact is that no matter how benign the actual outcome of the incident both instructor and student had the opportunity to make choices along the way. Both chose to behave in the manner that they did. To insist that the student was totally at fault and imply that the instructor was somehow just an innocent bystander who did nothing to contribute to the situation or had no choice to behave otherwise is just plain wrong.

Ron

lbb
02-23-2011, 11:02 AM
How did the instructor "contribute to the situation"? What choices did the instructor make that you consider at fault?

Basia Halliop
02-23-2011, 11:02 AM
Since none of the people in this incident are mentioned by name and few of us even have any idea who they are I don't think many people reading really care all that much what happened in that specific incident in that specific dojo.... I don't personally.... It's natural and I think almost inevitable that everyone will use it as a hypothetical situation to discuss a general issue.

Maybe better though if we all make it more clear and explicit that it's the hypothetical situation we're interested in, not the actual situation.

RonRagusa
02-23-2011, 11:11 AM
How did the instructor "contribute to the situation"? What choices did the instructor make that you consider at fault?

Oh please Mary, the instructor was part of a two person interaction. If you want to believe that the instructor just stood by with a blank mind and let the situation unfold without making any decisions regarding how he was going to respond, well, that's your prerogative. Regarding your second question, as I stated before, the instructor could have called for another uke instead of trying to force a solution with the original uke.

Best,

Ron

Basia Halliop
02-23-2011, 11:21 AM
In the scenario where the student just felt some pain but was not injured, and he was advanced enough to have felt such pain many times before presumably, and he basically knew it was coming.... it doesn't sound like anything bad even really happened, so no need to worry about who was 'at fault'. No one. Nothing bad happened.

If we assume a similar scenario though where uke did get injured? Then I would say probably both... How much depends on whether the teacher would have had reason to believe uke was both experienced and mature enough to move away once he did start to feel the lock coming on. If it was reasonable to assume uke would not end up getting injured, than I wouldn't blame the teacher that much. But if the teacher knew there was a good chance this uke would resist badly enough to get himself injured (even if it was because he was pig-headed), than IMO he should have stopped....

And on the other hand I would say the uke was also at fault if he knew enough to stay down but chose not to or thought he could call the teacher's bluff... but OTOH less at fault if he was testing the pin out of genuine confusion or honestly trying to understand what would happen.

So actually even in the injury scenario personally I think it could range all the way from both being very much at fault, to one or the other being mostly at fault, even to neither being much at fault. All other things being equal I would tend to give the senior more responsibility though because they have far more experience, knowledge, power, etc...

Janet Rosen
02-23-2011, 11:21 AM
Regarding your second question, as I stated before, the instructor could have called for another uke instead of trying to force a solution with the original uke.


My reading of the scenario is not that the instructor was looking for a demo uke; rather that the instructor was doing small group teaching specific to THAT student's ukewaza. As I'm sure we have all felt many times, an uke coming up into a correctly held, extended but not clamped down, lock will indeed feel the non-injuring flash of pain that happens with nikkyo or sankyo.
I have been in some situations where the instructor explicitly does a very slight release of a lock because he WANTS uke to come up - this demonstrates to the instructor that the uke is doing "continuous attacking".
But in this situation as it has been very clearly written: the point the instructor was trying to get across to this specific student was to please relax and accept the pin. This was not the instructor getting angry, this was the instructor instructing and noone was harmed. This to me falls well within the realm of normal teaching of a body art.

lbb
02-23-2011, 11:29 AM
Oh please Mary, the instructor was part of a two person interaction. If you want to believe that the instructor just stood by with a blank mind and let the situation unfold without making any decisions regarding how he was going to respond, well, that's your prerogative. Regarding your second question, as I stated before, the instructor could have called for another uke instead of trying to force a solution with the original uke.

Best,

Ron

If you're going to start your response with "Oh please Mary", as if I were some kind of idiot child, you can at least refrain from concluding it with an insincere "Best".

And you still haven't answered my first question. All you've done is say, in effect, "Did so!" I asked you how he "contribut[ed] to the situation". If you don't want to answer it, then don't. Silence is always an option, and may be the best one in a thread where the second-guessing of motives seems to be the main course.

ninjaqutie
02-23-2011, 11:41 AM
Wow.... this thread is getting interesting. Sounds to me like the third kyu was kind of being an (_!_) about the situation. It happens. I doubt he could get to that point in training (3rd kyu) and not have experienced any pain or to know better. If he is pulling this with the sensei, more then likely, he is doing it to others and he could be severely hurt working with the wrong person.

If the person were new, things would be different. Sounds like the sensei did his best to educate his student first and it sounds like he gave him a bit of pain, but nothing to cry about. My guess is the guy got pissed because he got hurt doing something he shouldn't have. Maybe he gets away with this behavior with other people, but he didn't get away with it this time. People can get upset if their point has been proven wrong. I guess I should say, I am not neccessarily saying this happened in THIS situation, but it does happen.

If you want to start a jumping off point, maybe it needs to be made more clear. State the quote and then say, this got me thinking.... if this were to happen with a beginner (or throw in whatever other variables you want), how would you feel about the situation? OR, leave a quote from someone out all together and create your own story or situation.

Poor Keith, he is going to stop talking all together if people keep taking things out of context. I know I would.

C. David Henderson
02-23-2011, 12:40 PM
The fact is that no matter how benign the actual outcome of the incident both instructor and student had the opportunity to make choices along the way. Both chose to behave in the manner that they did. To insist that the student was totally at fault and imply that the instructor was somehow just an innocent bystander who did nothing to contribute to the situation or had no choice to behave otherwise is just plain wrong.

Ron

Hi Ron,

To me, this conflates causation and moral responsibility. Yes, both contributed to the outcome.

If the actual outcome was, however, "benign," then the idea of attributing fault seems out of place.

In fact, if the outcome was benign, despite Sankyu's conduct, I'd be inclined to give the instructor credit, not blame.

Sincerely,

RonRagusa
02-23-2011, 01:25 PM
If you're going to start your response with "Oh please Mary", as if I were some kind of idiot child, you can at least refrain from concluding it with an insincere "Best".

And you still haven't answered my first question. All you've done is say, in effect, "Did so!" I asked you how he "contribut[ed] to the situation". If you don't want to answer it, then don't. Silence is always an option, and may be the best one in a thread where the second-guessing of motives seems to be the main course.

It's a shame that you can readily accept my expression of exasperation with a post of yours and so readily reject my sincere wishes for the best for you. Both were truly expressed.

Ron

Mary Eastland
02-23-2011, 01:28 PM
Give me a break. I think Keith might be able to taker care of himself.
As for what you believe I meant...you could try taking it at face value when I said what I meant.
It is an interesting point for discussion.
I would not hurt some one to make a point. If someone else chooses to... that is up to them. I would also not call someone an idiot. I may not like how people respond to me on these threads or on the mat but I don't have to call them names to make myself feel better.
Mary

lbb
02-23-2011, 02:56 PM
Give me a break. I think Keith might be able to taker care of himself.
As for what you believe I meant...you could try taking it at face value when I said what I meant.

I took what you said at face value. I still don't see how I misinterpreted your words, but I'm perfectly willing to accept that you meant something different.

It is an interesting point for discussion.
I would not hurt some one to make a point. If someone else chooses to... that is up to them.

I understand. I think maybe the discussion could have proceeded better without your example, though, since no one was hurt (and therefore no one chose to hurt anyone) in that case.

I would also not call someone an idiot. I may not like how people respond to me on these threads or on the mat but I don't have to call them names to make myself feel better.

Who called someone an idiot?

ninjaqutie
02-23-2011, 03:00 PM
Give me a break. I think Keith might be able to taker care of himself.

I'm not sure if you are talking to me or not... but I am certain you are correct. Keith is more then capable of taking care of hiself. I was merely stating that if I were Keith, and people kept taking what I said out of context, I might just stop offering up experiences/stories because of situations like this.

I would also not call someone an idiot. I may not like how people respond to me on these threads or on the mat but I don't have to call them names to make myself feel better.

Is this from another experience of yours or did this occur in this thread?

Mary Eastland
02-23-2011, 04:06 PM
Keith called the uke an idiot. It is right at the end of the quote.
Mary

C. David Henderson
02-23-2011, 04:31 PM
Hi Mary,

I'm sorry this thread is getting derailed, as I agree it could be an interesting discussion.

With sincere respect, though, if Keith calling uke "idiot" is up for discussion, it seems to me the actual situation is the operative one to address, even though you originally wanted to use the quote a a jumping-off point, and even though, notwithstanding further clarification, as an individual, you still might not use the term.

Questions of etiquette aside, would you agree that uke seems to have acted foolishly?

I also was wondering with respect to these issues how much the customs and expectations from one's own training affect our judgments. Thoughts?

Best,

Janet Rosen
02-23-2011, 04:39 PM
My thought is that I'm following Keith in walking away from this thread. Here's another thread just deteriorating due to people writing as if they are more interested in scoring points on/over each other or over perceived slights than talking about an interesting thing that happened on the mat.

Keith Larman
02-23-2011, 04:41 PM
Deleted.

Mary Eastland
02-23-2011, 05:25 PM
I came back to aikiweb thinking it might be different this time. I am not trying to mean to anyone. Keith... how can you be a fighter and be so sensitive and Janet who I am I insulting? He called the guy an idiot...did you not read it?
If George Ledyard or someone else who is supposedly respected on this board wrote what i did the whole thread would be in a different view.
How do you get the benifit of the doubt here...what is the right way to post?
Why can some people say anything they want and when i post some one always finds something wrong with it...unless I am describing the frigging weather.
I don't think it is right to hurt people. What is wrong with that?

Mary

Janet Rosen
02-23-2011, 05:52 PM
1. Nobody was hurt.
2. Referring to an anonymous nonposter as an idiot in a post is not the same as an ad hominen attack between posters, IMO.
3. Your post re use of word idiot never specified it was in the OP where I suspect many readers didn't take special note of it, leaving us to wonder who called who a idiot in the process of the thread.
5. To me, and this is just me, any position based on "well, if HE wrote this it would be treated differently" is akin to "but Sally's mom let's her" - it is irrelevent speculation that devalues one's actual position/arguement

Mary I normally decline to engage in this kind of metadiscussion. You're question seemed sincerely put tho so I'm replying to the best of my ability. But I will not in turn see this be a starting point for argument; as you probably have noticed, my general policy is to walk away from what I see as pointless exchanges.

Mark Gibbons
02-23-2011, 05:59 PM
I don't think it is right to hurt people. What is wrong with that?

Mary

Do you mean it is wrong to injure people or wrong to cause any pain while training martial arts? Just guessing at what you might have meant.

I doubt you will find many supporters for "It's ok to break people who take bad ukemi or otherwise don't measure up." I didn't notice any on the thread.

If you are totally against causing any pain, well you can think anything you want. Some will agree, some won't.

Regards,
Mark

kewms
02-23-2011, 07:29 PM
Do you mean it is wrong to injure people or wrong to cause any pain while training martial arts? Just guessing at what you might have meant.

I doubt you will find many supporters for "It's ok to break people who take bad ukemi or otherwise don't measure up." I didn't notice any on the thread.

If you are totally against causing any pain, well you can think anything you want. Some will agree, some won't.

This. Yes, it is wrong to deliberately injure practice partners for any reason.

However, there are several important caveats. The first is that pain does not mean injury. (And did not in the example that sparked this thread.) The second is that we are practicing a full contact martial art: if no injuries happen, ever, I question the validity of what is being practiced.

And finally, the uke in this example was not a beginner, and as such should be expected to take some responsibility for his own well-being.

Katherine

PS Not going to comment on the meta-discussion, except to observe that there appears to be some kind of subtext going on that goes over my head as a relatively infrequent reader/poster. People are assuming attitudes that do not appear to be supported by anything in the thread itself.

lbb
02-23-2011, 07:46 PM
"Why do you hate freedom?"

Mary Eastland
02-23-2011, 08:15 PM
I am going to bow out now rather ungracefully. It was not my purpose to cause anyone embarassment. I think i just really don't get how to do this very well.
Sorry to offend. Mary

graham christian
02-23-2011, 08:54 PM
Hi, just read this from beginning. So here's my ten cents.

Firstly Keith was illustrating a point to do with the ignorance or even resistance of an uke can in many cases lead to them ahrning themselves in Aikido to various degrees.(Point being uke causing their own pain)

Secondly looking at the way of the teacher. For discussion purposes I would say there are of course teachers of various degrees of ability.

A) If the teacher is Quite good then when the uke persistently tries to get up then he would probably do as this one did. ie: Let it off a couple of times and then hold it or enforce it slightly to make the point.

B)However, if the teacher is very good he would actually ask the uke to try and keep trying to get out of the pin or to get up. Why? Because being a very good and able teacher the uke won't be able to move and thus impossible to be injured.

C)Therefore if it was meant to be a demonstration of holding a person down momentarily then if he is an excellent teacher again there would be no problem.

Conclusion: If a quite good teacher then it's understandable what happened.It could even be that the uke had the view that the uke should always keep trying to get up no matter what and thus thought he was being right and missing the point of the demo. The teacher thinking he was just being obstinate may then have done what he did. Who knows? A common misunderstanding. Which also leads to pain.

The optimum is that there should be no need to give pain but that would take a very good teacher and thus that would be a lesson to the uke which is much more powerful than learning by pain for he's put in a position where there's absolutely nothing he can do. Can't even move and yet feels no pain.

So that is possible and preferable and so from that viewpoint there should be no pain in teaching, be it a high level and high goal. May I say also this would be a higher level of responsibility also that many may not have experienced.

For those who can do this, I'm assuming someone like Ron Ragusa can, then that person will be aware that when it is not done in this way that ego IS involved. It's all a matter of levels and ability.

Maybe that's more than ten cents, maybe it's a whole dollar. Sorry about that.

Regards.G.

Basia Halliop
02-24-2011, 09:42 AM
B)However, if the teacher is very good he would actually ask the uke to try and keep trying to get out of the pin or to get up. Why? Because being a very good and able teacher the uke won't be able to move and thus impossible to be injured.

Wouldn't that depend what he was trying to teach? I can imagine many situations where a teacher may not use their full capability, or may leave openings, or allow a student to make small mistakes even when the teacher is capable of preventing them, in the interest of teaching.

E.g. if he was trying to show the uke how to take safer ukemi and show them that attempting to force their way through a pin could be ill-advised or could get them hurt, then doing it in such a way that uke can't even try to do the ill-advised thing might not be a very clear way of demonstrating that... It would show that that teacher can stop such an uke (and might provide opportunities to give tips on how to stop an uke from getting out of a pin), but that might not have been what the teacher was trying to show that uke.

George S. Ledyard
02-24-2011, 11:55 AM
a) there is a huge difference between injuring someone and that same person experiencing pain. A lot of what we do can be painful. It's a martial art.

b) pain is just another form of feedback, the uke should be listening. I have had folks choose not to. I will let off a technique rather than injure someone but I have no problem having them feel the pain that comes with being somewhere one shouldn't be.

I know there have been times when I eased up so as to not hurt someone and the uke thought I didn't have the technique. They can think what they want... I have no interest in working with people that stupid so, generally, I walk away.

If it's one of my own students, however, I will let them experience a bit of what they are letting themselves in for if they resist. I can control what I do and it's better they learn from me than do the same dumb thing at a seminar and have someone really crank one on.

This is a martial art. I have a problem with the idea that everyone else needs to take responsibility for making sure you don't experience any unpleasantness. Injuring people is unacceptable. But teaching them to take responsibility for their own actions, in this case not doing something dumb while taking ukemi, is my job.

c) that said... it's also a matter of level. Pain is very ineffective in a martial encounter. Locks done with "aiki" don't even hurt at the point of the lock itself, but they take your whole center. Most folks don't do their locks that way. Most folks put all their energy directly into the point of contact. This isn't very high level practice but it works if you are strong and doesn't if you are not. People willing to put up with some discomfort will beat locks done this way.

So, the uke needs to learn what his or her physical limitations are. That never happens when everyone is so scared to apply techniques for fear that something might hurt. Nage needs to experience the fact that technique done in order to cause pain doesn't actually work very well. Once again, you don't get strong enough to stand in there and give that feedback to nage if no one ever applies techniques strongly on you. This kind of practice leads to students who will not go train outside their own dojos because their own dojo environment is so protective and the cruel world outside is not. Being over protective is the opposite side of being abusive and is equally unbalanced as far as the student's development goes.

Some of my attitude on this is colored by working with the Systema folks a bit. Much of what they do is very painful yet almost nothing they do is injurious. I see fewer injuries in their classes than in a typical Aikido practice. They learn how to relax and move the energy of what is causing them pain. Learning that pain just isn't that big a deal takes the load off it on an emotional level. If someone is afraid of experiencing pain, then anyone who can cause you pain can take your center. That just isn't good martial arts.

So, part of teaching ukemi is teaching how to relax and move so that what would have caused pain doesn't. You won't learn this if no one ever applies a technique that causes discomfort. Ukemi needs to be defensive, at least eventually. It is how you protect yourself, even when someone doesn't have your best interests at heart. That never happens if all the responsibility is put on nage not to do anything annoying to uke.

So, just to be clear... injury is bad, injury is to be avoided. Causing pain as a form of domination is bad and isn't actually effective. But a certain amount of pain is another form of feedback and one that people tend to remember better than explanations about why they shouldn't do a particular thing. In the situation described, I see no issue with how the teacher allowed the uke to feel the results of his ukemi choices.

Keith Larman
02-24-2011, 01:18 PM
Graham -- I simply don't know how to reply to your post.

Basia -- Yup, that was precisely what he was trying to teach. How to properly take ukemi to *avoid* potential injury. He repeatedly ignored the instruction. The Shihan allowed him to push into the joint lock in a safe controlled fashion, vastly (for him) better than letting someone else with less control or training just crank him. Which is likely what would have eventually happened.

George -- thank you. You precisely covered exactly how I saw the event but also how training is supposed to be done. I am completely baffled by the idea that there will be no pain in training. No, pain compliance is rarely a good idea as a larger concept. But it is an aspect of what we do. I wonder how they perform a simple nikyo for that matter. But, that said, along the path to "perfect aiki form" where we can magically control the other person flawlessly and with astoundingly pain free technique there are going to be a lot of bumps. But again, thank you for your post. I must admit to total frustration with this thread up to this point.

Gary David
02-24-2011, 02:43 PM
George has it right, at some point pain won't help you. If you have not destabilized them by taking hold of all of them they will just smile at you while you are grinding away. There are more and more folks out there that have better control of what they are doing as to make pain ineffective. For fun as uke try working your way back from the point of conflict, say with a nikkyo. Resist at the wrist, then drop back to resisting that the elbow, then the shoulder with nage continuing to apply torque at the wrist...see if it is easier to hold. When I apply nikkyo I am looking to edge the uke's weight on to the one of the their feet. Working my way all the way down there. This is where my intention is going, not into hurting the wrist.

About getting hurt, as uke I have been injured more than once, none of these intentional. I have both shoulders separated more than once because the nage broke down.....was not intentional, they just broke down. Before you say to me if I were good enough I should not have been hurt......when someone loads you up on their hip and then collapses under you half way through and before they clear you off there is not much time.

As for me hurting others, only once that I know of and two other times when someone was trying to hurt me I had to make a point.....then did I take them to the edge and as they were down on the mat bend over to ask them if they wanted to continue this way or just train.

On a funny note relating to the situation that Keith is talking to back when my daughter was in 8th grade they has a field trip to Disney Land here in CA and she had be sick...she keep after me until I let her go with the understanding that I would come to pick her up before dark. When I got there I got a lot of flack from one of her class mates who was inches shorter than me and a fly weight. As he kept on with the funny banter my daughter ask me to show him the wrist technique (yonkyo) and he offer up his arm. He was at my feet before he could say anything. As I kept talking to my daughter friends I eased off an he tried to stand....right into the yonkyo again... I said to him just stay down and you will feel no pain.....he didn't listen. Never hurt him, except maybe his pride...as my daughter and I walked away we could hear him say "...I could have taken him" My daughter and I had a good laugh as we walked out to the car.
Gary

Keith Larman
02-24-2011, 02:59 PM
Gary, great story. I had a guy who I put on the ground repeatedly who kept getting up saying "that won't work". I think his problem was that he couldn't figure out how I was taking his balance and he couldn't quite grok a technique that didn't involve pain. He didn't think it was effective because it didn't hurt him, although he completely missed the fact that I had him each time and had him fully under control. Whatever. He can walk away feeling it wasn't working. Won't ruin my day.

WRT to the word idiot, if for no other reason but to be complete. I was referring to his behavior. He was acting idiotically. One common usage of idiotic is to act foolishly with lack of concern to one's well being. "It is idiotic to jump out of a plane without a parachute". Another common usage is to convey absurdity. Yet another would be someone trying some completely ridiculous way to do something. "He rather idiotically tried to dig a hole in concrete using only a toothpick." There are *other* meanings such as saying the person is "intellectually challenged". Well, quite frankly someone not taking advice like that given the context, given who was giving the advice, given prior experience might actually make a good case that there may be a defect somewhere along the line. It was an idiotic thing to do. He behaved like an idiot. Of course one may find the term too strong, but to be honest I found the guy's behavior foolish, absurd, ridiculous, ...

I am completely baffled by the notion that everything must be flowers, puppies and happy thoughts. Warm fuzzies for everyone! No, sometimes people act like jerks. Sometimes they act like idiots. When they do so they are jerks. When they do so they are idiots. Lord knows I've done both myself.

And I am completely astounded that something I thought was a totally banal observation ended up being the fuel for so much. If a student never experiences any pain whatsoever in training how will they know the limits of what they are doing? How will they know what they could in fact do to the other person? How will they react the first time someone comes along and punches them? Yeah, most will stand their like a deer in the headlights.

Marc Abrams
02-24-2011, 03:33 PM
Keith:

I totally agree with your position. Some people seem to forget that we are actually training an a martial art. Go figure.... Pain is a signal event that is evolutionary in nature. It astounds me that in today's society, we take such a negative spin on pain, anxiety and negative emotional states. They are part of our evolutionary development that help signal us to take actions. The person you described is the type of person who get registered in the Darwin Awards annals......

I also believe what George talked about as far as the higher level execution of "joint-lock" techniques. The best part is that when the person is off-balanced, they are not able to effectively use force against a joint-lock and you can then apply pain at the site so that it really hurts...

To chime in on funny joint-lock stories... My son (now 16) had just turned 11y/o. We were at a friend of mine's (former student of mine) 4th of July party. His daughter (18y/o at that time) was on the back deck with a gang of boys. All of the sudden we hear a loud bang. My friend comes up to me laughing his ass off and tell me that the alpha male heard that Kyle studied martial arts. The boy wanted to show-off in front of my friend's daughter. My son, being vertically challenged like myself, tried to avoid the situation, but the kid kept up. Kyle gracefully put him into an ikkyo. The fool tried to strongly stand up and the result was that he went suddenly horizontal and his body hit the deck with a loud slam. The boy stalked off talking about how he just faked hitting the ground.

Regards,

Marc Abrams

graham christian
02-24-2011, 03:43 PM
Wouldn't that depend what he was trying to teach? I can imagine many situations where a teacher may not use their full capability, or may leave openings, or allow a student to make small mistakes even when the teacher is capable of preventing them, in the interest of teaching.

E.g. if he was trying to show the uke how to take safer ukemi and show them that attempting to force their way through a pin could be ill-advised or could get them hurt, then doing it in such a way that uke can't even try to do the ill-advised thing might not be a very clear way of demonstrating that... It would show that that teacher can stop such an uke (and might provide opportunities to give tips on how to stop an uke from getting out of a pin), but that might not have been what the teacher was trying to show that uke.

Hi Basia.
On the face of it yes, it does depend. However in this case it was an uke who already knew that so that wasn't the demonstration. Once again I'll say unless the uke had a misunderstanding.

Also I'm not saying you can't do that, show how whan 'a' happens it causes pain. Of course you can. I'm introducing a third aspect where all these things can be done without pain as well.

That doesn't mean it's wrong to do as described. Those who are defensive about it to me is just showing me they don't believe that 'third way.'

Regards.G.

C. David Henderson
02-24-2011, 04:06 PM
Dear Graham,

You've jumped to conclusions about both the underlying incident as well as what people's reactions "show." (Keith already has confirmed your assumption about the incident is mistaken.) If you want to know whether people think there are ways to apply these techniques effectively without pain, just ask. If you want to know whether that idea changes anyone's view of what occurred, ask.

If you want to re-enforce your own assumptions, carry on.

graham christian
02-24-2011, 04:07 PM
Marc and Keith. I see no problem with the story given. Done it many hundreds of times. I am surprised however by your views on no pain.

Keith, you tell a story of what you did and there was no pain except a rejection by the recipient.

So I find it funny that it tends to equate with roses in the garden and unreality justified by not only you saying we must remember it's a martial art.

So martial equals pain? Mmmm.

Effective, yes. Definite, yes. A 'soft' nikkyo is much more powerful and inescapable and effective than what you may be used to. One day you'll experience one.

Regards.G.

C. David Henderson
02-24-2011, 04:09 PM
Carry on.

Keith Larman
02-24-2011, 04:16 PM
And another plonk...

Marc Abrams
02-24-2011, 08:05 PM
Marc and Keith. I see no problem with the story given. Done it many hundreds of times. I am surprised however by your views on no pain.

Keith, you tell a story of what you did and there was no pain except a rejection by the recipient.

So I find it funny that it tends to equate with roses in the garden and unreality justified by not only you saying we must remember it's a martial art.

So martial equals pain? Mmmm.

Effective, yes. Definite, yes. A 'soft' nikkyo is much more powerful and inescapable and effective than what you may be used to. One day you'll experience one.

Regards.G.

Graham:

Maybe, just maybe your experience base is far less than some of the posters here. Maybe, just maybe your believes may be more idealistic than reality might dictate.

Do you really know what Keith has experienced? Maybe you should reserve comment until you know what that person can and cannot do. Heck, he might have more years training in martial arts than you have been alive. Your attempts to teach/lecture/inform others tend to fall short to those who are more seasoned, capable and experienced than you appear to be.

Marc Abrams

lbb
02-24-2011, 08:23 PM
Keith, David, Marc, take it easy, guys!. Graham is just using the story as another jumping-off point (http://www.thisfabtrek.com/journey/africa/morocco/20050729-tan-tan/cliff-lr-4.jpg).

(watch out, that first step's a lulu!)

:D

Michael Hackett
02-24-2011, 09:44 PM
Yes, but he has demonstrated how good his ukemi is such falls.

kewms
02-24-2011, 10:14 PM
Effective, yes. Definite, yes. A 'soft' nikkyo is much more powerful and inescapable and effective than what you may be used to. One day you'll experience one.

I have. But even a soft nikkyo can be rendered painful if uke is sufficiently determined.

That is, pain is not inherent in the lock. But once the lock is applied, uke can generally inflict pain on himself by fighting against it.

Katherine

graham christian
02-24-2011, 11:14 PM
I have. But even a soft nikkyo can be rendered painful if uke is sufficiently determined.

That is, pain is not inherent in the lock. But once the lock is applied, uke can generally inflict pain on himself by fighting against it.

Katherine

Katherine. O.K. That is your experience. I am saying it is not only possible it is done the way I describe by people who can do it. It is a reality. I am not joking when I say I am surprised more people can't do it or havn't experienced it on a regular basis.

Mary, be careful I'm I'm using it as a jump off point to.......? Mmmm. You love it.

Marc, just maybe I acknowledged what Keith said and just maybe I said I've done it. Just maybe I've validated what he said, not gone against it. So your comments are misplaced.

Also he may or may not have more experience than me if he is 70 years old or somethimg, not that it matters that much.

It's a good story and resonates with others experiences, I like it.

Mary disagreed with something about it and I understand what she was saying, obviously many don't here. So I put it to you it is a few here who are using that as a jump off point to put others down instead of discuss the the validity of what Mary said for that's all I did.

Who knows, something could be learned?

Regards .G.

Gary David
02-24-2011, 11:58 PM
.

Also he may or may not have more experience than me if he is 70 years old or somethimg, not that it matters that much.
.

Graham I've been in Aikido since 1974, 68 years old and have turned a few corners. Nikkyo is a joint lock and by definition a certain level of applied pain is possible dependent upon the actions taken by either the nage or the uke...or both. If nage and uke both stay at the point of contact/conflict (the joint lock) with the uke actively trying to get out of the lock a high level of pain will be realized if the nage wishes to maintain control. If either the nage or uke work away from the point of contact secondary pressures are involved. What I would call a soft nikkyo would be possible if the secondary pressure is sourced from the dantien with connections to the ground. The nikkyo is then a byproduct of the destabilization effort but still must be maintained as a lock and the start point for the process. Even here the potential for pain exists. I am not sure what a soft nikkyo is to you.
Gary

graham christian
02-25-2011, 12:29 AM
Graham I've been in Aikido since 1974, 68 years old and have turned a few corners. Nikkyo is a joint lock and by definition a certain level of applied pain is possible dependent upon the actions taken by either the nage or the uke...or both. If nage and uke both stay at the point of contact/conflict (the joint lock) with the uke actively trying to get out of the lock a high level of pain will be realized if the nage wishes to maintain control. If either the nage or uke work away from the point of contact secondary pressures are involved. What I would call a soft nikkyo would be possible if the secondary pressure is sourced from the dantien with connections to the ground. The nikkyo is then a byproduct of the destabilization effort but still must be maintained as a lock and the start point for the process. Even here the potential for pain exists. I am not sure what a soft nikkyo is to you.
Gary

Hi Gary. I understand and agree with what you say there. When you mention soft nikkyo coming from dantien with connections to the ground that is nearer what I call soft nikkyo.

Terms like ground force or connect to ground I call koshi. Dantien I call center. So nikkyo done with good center and koshi I say is a very powerful nikkyo and very definite and unarguable. However this is not what I mean exactly by soft nikkyo.

Those two principles mentioned, working together produce that result. When all principles work together in Aikido then it becomes very soft yet inescapable. The person doesn't want to escape, how could they for they feel better. This is what I mean by soft nikkyo. When all comes together in such a way I call that true kokyu.

Imagine someone putting their arm around your shoulder and digging their fingers into say the base of the side of your neck in order to take your mind or cause whatever in order to put you down on the ground.

Now imagine someone putting their arm around your shoulder and despite what you fear they are up to your body just relaxes and you feel extremely comfortable and find yourself sitting down as if the two of you are sitting down on a sofa. It all feels so natural. That's what I mean.

When you hear an old master or someone renowned saying things like the true true sword is healing or true budo is love then you can see they meant it , it's real. Hard to achieve, maybe, but real nonetheless.

Hope that explains what I mean.

Regards.G.

Basia Halliop
02-25-2011, 07:12 AM
Graham wrote: "Keith, you tell a story of what you did and there was no pain except a rejection by the recipient."

Umm, are we reading the same thread?

Keith Larman wrote:
Saw a guy repeatedly start to get up after being taken down while the instructor was saying "stay down until I let you back up". The instructor kept releasing the lock because he didn't want to hurt the guy. But after about the third time he just left it on. Didn't crank anything but the guy came up and ran right into it, hurting his shoulder. And he got upset that he was injured. Idiot.


Keith wrote: Re: uke getting hurt
Again, as I said before, this thread was started by taking a short comment out of context of another thread. The instructor did *NOT* injure the student. The instructor allowed the student to come up into a sankyo and feel that he was locked up and that it was painful. It was not more than what you'd find in any relatively high level practice. He was NOT injured.

Basia wrote: E.g. if he was trying to show the uke how to take safer ukemi and show them that attempting to force their way through a pin could be ill-advised or could get them hurt, then doing it in such a way that uke can't even try to do the ill-advised thing might not be a very clear way of demonstrating that... It would show that that teacher can stop such an uke (and might provide opportunities to give tips on how to stop an uke from getting out of a pin), but that might not have been what the teacher was trying to show that uke.

Keith wrote: Basia -- Yup, that was precisely what he was trying to teach. How to properly take ukemi to *avoid* potential injury. He repeatedly ignored the instruction. The Shihan allowed him to push into the joint lock in a safe controlled fashion, vastly (for him) better than letting someone else with less control or training just crank him. Which is likely what would have eventually happened.

Of course you can often have effective joint locks that aren't painful, I'm sure we've all felt them, but that's not what's being discussed here, is it? We were AFAIK discussing the degree to which teachers SHOULD protect students from themselves, not what was humanly possible. IMO it's not even all that relevant to the discussion, but maybe that's just how it seems to me?

Mary Eastland
02-25-2011, 07:24 AM
Using the content of the orginal quote, I think the responses show a differences in styles,in teaching and in training. This is not a judgement of a particular teacher or incident.
Our style of teaching and training is to always err on the side of
caution. Many people in our dojo are not young, or are very young, their risk for injury may be more than they know.
We are training to develop correct feeling. Pain can be a good teacher. A good teacher can allow a little pain in the right circumstances. Caution should be used.
Every student is a person in their own right and has dignity and value.
Mary

Basia Halliop
02-25-2011, 07:43 AM
To me exploring the feeling of pain (and similarly fear) and learning to understand what different kinds of discomfort and pain (and fear) mean in different situations (should you ignore it, should you move away/around/etc and how, are you about to injure yourself if you don't immediately change something, etc) is valuable in and of itself.... Everyone I expect has their own ideal amount that works for them in training and I can easily imagine being somewhere where it was used in a way that was too much for me or I didn't feel benefited me, but OTOH I don't think I'd want to train somewhere where no one EVER felt ANY pain. Too many opportunities lost.

Marc Abrams
02-25-2011, 08:00 AM
Keith, David, Marc, take it easy, guys!. Graham is just using the story as another jumping-off point (http://www.thisfabtrek.com/journey/africa/morocco/20050729-tan-tan/cliff-lr-4.jpg).

(watch out, that first step's a lulu!)

:D

Mary:

I think he already landed......:eek: Your link says it all......:D Could not have represented reality better than that!

Regards,

Marc Abrams

C. David Henderson
02-25-2011, 09:26 AM
I love the ocean air.

C. David Henderson
02-25-2011, 09:30 AM
[It] is a few here who are using that as a jump off point to put others down instead of discuss the the validity of what Mary said for that's all I did.


What post? Are you sure you are reading it as intended (this time)? Why assume? Why not ask?

I agree there are opportunities to learn from this thread; do you include yourself as those who might learn something of value?

George S. Ledyard
02-25-2011, 12:18 PM
Using the content of the orginal quote, I think the responses show a differences in styles,in teaching and in training. This is not a judgement of a particular teacher or incident.
Our style of teaching and training is to always err on the side of
caution. Many people in our dojo are not young, or are very young, their risk for injury may be more than they know.
We are training to develop correct feeling. Pain can be a good teacher. A good teacher can allow a little pain in the right circumstances. Caution should be used.
Every student is a person in their own right and has dignity and value.
Mary

Not a thing here I would disagree with. I think the reaction was mostly based on the fact that we have all seen dojos in which the students are so protected that it's simply not a martial art any more. My friend, James Bartee Sensei, a former Secret Service agent, calls these "happy dojos".

There are dojos around where, if a student gets hit with a shomen uchi, the whole class stops as if some serious accident has occurred. I have seen it. There is so little expectation of contact that when it does occur people are shocked. At a seminar, I had a partner who was pulling his strikes. I told him to hit me. He wouldn't. I told him that I wasn't going to do the technique until he actually attacked me. After FIVE tries I finally got him to touch my head lightly with his shomen strike.

I go to places at which no one has experienced the range of technique that is possible on a lock like nikkyo. I have experienced a nikkyop that feels like what Graham describes... it's how Popkin Sensei does it in his Daito Ryu. You feel nothing on the wrist and your center is on the ground. I have also experienced Chiba Sensei's nikkyo, which is quite simply a force of nature and makes your wrist feel like it's being ripped off. What I currently do myself is far closer to Popkin Sensei's and getting softer all the time.

What all of these nikkyos have in common is that compliance is not optional. With Popkin Sensei's you are not sure why you are on the ground and are asking yourself why you didn't just let go. With Chiba's you know exactly why you are down there and are endeavoring to see if you can squish under the tatami to get away from the pain. Most of what passes for nikkyo at many dojos isn't either of these. No one ever experiences how dangerous the technique can be and they never develop the proper degree of respect for it and don't have any idea how to protect themselves against someone whose nikkyo is on the Chiba Sensei side of the spectrum. These people go to train at big seminars and camps and they get hurt.

Tom Read Sensei's nikkyo was what I call a "pulse nikkyo". He'd draw you out to accelerate you, then he'd tighten his hip spiral back in the other direction and let you run into it. It was scarier than Chiba Sensei's. I always felt right on the edge of being injured yet I never actually was. It definitely hurt though... you were never even tempted to see if you could hang in there. Rather you were only worried that you hadn't bailed soon enough to keep the full power from hitting you. Scared the piss out of me.

I think that, just as with little children, they have to learn just how dangerous certain things can be, sometimes by trial and error, adults doing Aikido shouldn't be protected too much. It doesn't really benefit them and it doesn't benefit the art.

Of course, if you have a dojo in which the average age is in the lower forties, as is very common these days, then it changes what you can do. At a certain point you simply have to start toning things down because your students are post peak physically. The same is true when you make the training accessible for people who are damaged emotionally. It is possible that when you make the training so safe, on either a physical or emotional level, you end up with a dojo at which it is impossible to become excellent at the art.

I have friends who have chosen to make their dojos VERY accessible in terms of being really safe feeling for pretty much anyone. There are clearly a number of former abuse victims, a large number of people over 40 who didn't even start martial arts until they were already past their peaks physically. In order to make their practice safe physically and emotionally for these folks they have had to tone down the training. The result has been that they frequently lose students who are younger and really want to train hard. These are not compatible paradigms...

At my own dojo I am someplace in between. My students do not train anywhere near as hard as I trained back in the day. But given the state of my body after all that enthusiastic but ultimately rather dumb training, I am fine with that. But it is still true that most of the folks training at my friend's dojos wouldn't not be training with me, even if I were the only dojo in the area. They simply wouldn't be doing martial arts at all...

So, I think we need to take care of our people but we also need to be clear about what we are doing when we do so. It's not wrong either way. But when we strive to make things so safe that anyone can train, we lose the edge that produces excellence. In fact we create an environment in which the person that could be excellent is not allowed to really grow. On the other hand we make the practice accessible to a number of people who might find it quite rewarding and empowering, even though they won't be terribly good at it. It's just a matter of choices. I do not think that one can do both at the same dojo. At least I have not seen it done.

Shadowfax
02-25-2011, 02:38 PM
Of course, if you have a dojo in which the average age is in the lower forties, as is very common these days, then it changes what you can do. At a certain point you simply have to start toning things down because your students are post peak physically. The same is true when you make the training accessible for people who are damaged emotionally. It is possible that when you make the training so safe, on either a physical or emotional level, you end up with a dojo at which it is impossible to become excellent at the art..

Speaking as someone who is a) in her early 40's b) has a significant amount of emotional scaring c) has a history of abuse and d) has some physical limitations....

I fully expect to experience pain as a part of my training. Just a week ago my uke told me I was getting hit while executing a technique. He wasn't actually hitting me but trying to let me know my movements were off and leaving me open. I told him "well then hit me". Sheesh how am I supposed to know the opening is there if you don't hit me? So he did :hypno: and I learned to get out of the way....

sometimes I do test a pin to the point of pain. Because I want to experience it. I want to feel what that feels like in a place where I know I am not so likely to get injured. The knowledge of my body's limits may come in very handy some day.

I guess I can understand some people not being able to handle hard training ( I happen to really enjoy it) but I mean if you don't want to learn how to deal with getting hit.... why take up a martial art?

I really have to agree with this.

I think that, just as with little children, they have to learn just how dangerous certain things can be, sometimes by trial and error, adults doing Aikido shouldn't be protected too much. It doesn't really benefit them and it doesn't benefit the art.


If my teachers had protected me so carefully from experiencing any pain ,and even fear, how would I have learned how to deal with it and be able to function in spite of it? I really think that experiencing these things in a controlled environment and at the hands of people you trust, who can help you to work through it, goes a long ways toward helping someone like me to heal.:)

graham christian
02-25-2011, 04:44 PM
Graham wrote: "Keith, you tell a story of what you did and there was no pain except a rejection by the recipient."

Umm, are we reading the same thread?

Of course you can often have effective joint locks that aren't painful, I'm sure we've all felt them, but that's not what's being discussed here, is it? We were AFAIK discussing the degree to which teachers SHOULD protect students from themselves, not what was humanly possible. IMO it's not even all that relevant to the discussion, but maybe that's just how it seems to me?

Basia. Re: No pain I was refering to #70.

Regards.G.

Janet Rosen
02-25-2011, 04:57 PM
Learning how, as uke, to mitigate/challenge a stable applied nikkyo by my own response to it, and learning to breathe into a nikkyo or sankyo was one of aikido's most valuable "off the mat" lessons for me, teaching me to relax when injured or in some other kind of pain.

I understand what you are saying, George, about the different expectations of training between younger and older students - it's part of why I'm offering a special beginners class for those w/ mobility or age concerns - but I do think there is a difference between "hard training" as in fast repetitions, big throws, etc, and a slower form of "martial training" that is slower and makes fewer demands on the compromised body but should still be accurate, on target and test the limits of the individual.
To me there is no excuse for an off-target attack once a beginner has had a class to work through fear of hitting/being hit.

graham christian
02-25-2011, 05:17 PM
What post? Are you sure you are reading it as intended (this time)? Why assume? Why not ask?

I agree there are opportunities to learn from this thread; do you include yourself as those who might learn something of value?

Charles. Am I assuming? I came in after Mary had had enough and was bowing out, Janet said it had once again deteriorated and turned to point scoring, and Keith had 'deleted'.

It needed a new impetus or direction as far as I could see.

Learning? Of course. I entered with center, led you around in a circle, returned with iriminage. You lost center and started talking about the ocean.(heh, heh) What do you think?

George came in with a good well balanced response. It's all good.

Regards.G.

lbb
02-25-2011, 07:47 PM
It needed a new impetus or direction as far as I could see.

Learning? Of course. I entered with center, led you around in a circle, returned with iriminage. You lost center and started talking about the ocean.(heh, heh) What do you think?

I think, with your apparently never-ending need to inject veiled and not-so-veiled insults and one-ups, that you come across as passive-aggressive and arrogant.

graham christian
02-25-2011, 07:58 PM
I think, with your apparently never-ending need to inject veiled and not-so-veiled insults and one-ups, that you come across as passive-aggressive and arrogant.

Thank you.

xxx.G.

C. David Henderson
02-26-2011, 03:45 AM
Really Graham,

I don't believe I lost my center. I believe I've behaved as a gentleman throughout my participation on this thread. For example, I am happy to address you in the manner you would request of me.

As to being led in circles, it is, I admit, a hazard that often seems to attend trying to make sense of what you say.

But, as I said, carry on.

The person I truly admire at the moment is Cherie Thank you for being real and genuine. I truly appreciated your post. In my view, you touched upon the essential reason why practice may serve as misogi. Thank you for your sincerity.

And Mary, again, thank you for the lovely post of that picture of the ocean.

David