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Dan Rubin
02-20-2011, 10:15 PM
Did he really think that making such a declaration among instructors with decades of experience would not result in some pretty intense scrutiny?

Can you say "Mark Tennenhouse?"

Mike Sigman
02-20-2011, 10:25 PM
Can you say "Mark Tennenhouse?"Or even "John Carlo" or some name like that? Problem is that I was talking about the content of internal strength in koryu arts, not the baddest guy around. Maybe at some time in the future we can convince people that there's a difference between the two, but we need to do it pretty soon before it gets into asking people what pro's they've fought and beat on their fight-card.

Back to our regularly scheduled "internal strength" discussion.

Mike Sigman

Toby Threadgill
02-21-2011, 01:12 PM
I wasn't addressing or referring to you, Mike. I was addressing Toby Threadgill, whom I quoted.

Hi Dan,

Yes...Much like Tennenhouse. Boy, he fell off the planet after his "outing" didn't he?

Toby

SeiserL
02-21-2011, 04:47 PM
Yes...Much like Tennenhouse. Boy, he fell off the planet after his "outing" didn't he?
LOL Who? LOL

David Orange
02-21-2011, 05:35 PM
...Much like Tennenhouse. Boy, he fell off the planet after his "outing" didn't he?

Where can the full account of this be found?

I generally understand that he claimed he'd discovered or invented new dimensions of aikido that far surpassed everything previously known, then, given a chance to show them at AikiExpo '05, he couldn't do a thing.

I'd just like to get the rest of the story.

Best wishes.

David

Toby Threadgill
02-21-2011, 06:06 PM
Where can the full account of this be found?

I generally understand that he claimed he'd discovered or invented new dimensions of aikido that far surpassed everything previously known, then, given a chance to show them at AikiExpo '05, he couldn't do a thing.

I'd just like to get the rest of the story.

Best wishes.

David

David,

Well, since I videotaped the whole thing for Stan Pranin, I pretty much observed the resulting train wreck (pun) up close and personal.

In a nutshell, Tennenhouse claimed he had all the answers to "fix" aikido. He showed up wearing a black belt, but after watching him about 30 seconds it was obvious he was no yudansha. He could not execute any orthodox aikido waza with any competency. This led me to conclude that the reason he was trying to "fix" aikido was because he couldn't actually do any aikido.

Among the most illuminating moments was one where Mr Tennenhouse attempted to do a basic Ikkyo on George Ledyard on Saturday. Tennenhouse hadn't a clue and mind you, and George was not giving him a hard time. Tennenhouse never listened to George's attempt to help him, finally got frustrated over his repeated failures and attempted a charging double leg tackle...Yes...against George Ledyard back in his 300lb days. Have you ever seen a car hit a brick wall? Needless to say, the attempt was unsuccessful, George just stood there and Mr Tennenhouse went off to the hospital.....

The following day Tennenhouse complained to me that he was being treated badly by everyone. I was incredulous. I told him he was damn lucky it was an aikido crowd because if he'd pulled this stunt on a judo or karate crowd he'd have gone to the hospital for an extended visit.

Following this debacle I contacted his teacher, a Mr Gotlin, with the assistance of Marc Abrams. Tennenhouse I was informed was only a sankyu, and not a good one at that. He had just prior to the Aiki Expo pleaded for Mr Gotlin to promote him to shodan, but Mr Gotlin refused.

This should be a caution to certain individuals harboring delusions of grandeur, but alas wisdom is not so obstreperous.

Toby

Demetrio Cereijo
02-21-2011, 06:09 PM
Where can the full account of this be found?
Full as complete, unbiased and exact? Nowhere.

I generally understand that he claimed he'd discovered or invented new dimensions of aikido that far surpassed everything previously known, then, given a chance to show them at AikiExpo '05, he couldn't do a thing.
What he claimed was anything extraordinaire, you can still find some of his writings in Aikido Journal, but he (like many) was more talk than walk and his lack of "zanshin" made him swallow hook, line and sinker at the expo.

Toby Threadgill
02-21-2011, 06:21 PM
Full as complete, unbiased and exact? Nowhere..

Demetrio,

Why would you assume such a thing? I have the whole incident on video. That's pretty unbiased.

Toby Threadgill

Janet Rosen
02-21-2011, 06:23 PM
That is one heck of an example of delusion + chutzpah taking somebody to the precipice and over!

Keith Larman
02-21-2011, 06:29 PM
Kind of a variation on a old joke. In his case his dogma was run over by his own karma... Self-inflicted wounds yet again.

Demetrio Cereijo
02-21-2011, 06:56 PM
Demetrio,

Why would you assume such a thing? I have the whole incident on video. That's pretty unbiased.

Toby Threadgill

Hi Toby,

The video is a part of what happened, there are only 10 MT posts and two blog entries in AJ (and he posted way more and in other sites too) with his claims and ensuing debates. I've been told by another attendant to the expo who was not involved in the MT affaire the behaviour of some of the "good guys" was not especially gentlemanly... and MT version of the incident is not available.

You have a very relevant part of the story videotaped (and, afaik, the video has not been published) but all what happened before, during and after is incomplete and there is some subjectivity in the witnessess and in the participants.

That's why I consider there is not a complete, unbiased and exact account of MT incident.

Marc Abrams
02-21-2011, 07:37 PM
Hi Toby,

The video is a part of what happened, there are only 10 MT posts and two blog entries in AJ (and he posted way more and in other sites too) with his claims and ensuing debates. I've been told by another attendant to the expo who was not involved in the MT affaire the behaviour of some of the "good guys" was not especially gentlemanly... and MT version of the incident is not available.

You have a very relevant part of the story videotaped (and, afaik, the video has not been published) but all what happened before, during and after is incomplete and there is some subjectivity in the witnessess and in the participants.

That's why I consider there is not a complete, unbiased and exact account of MT incident.

Demetrio:

I was there and I was one of those "good guys" involved in the affair. Mr. Threadgill was kind in his description of Mark. He was exact and to the point about mentioning what would have happened if it had not been an Aikido affair. Mark was given more than his fair share. He was given enough rope to tie a hammock or a noose. The one he tied was obvious to all. Lynn was another of those "good guys" who had interactions with Mark. It is very easy for the you to sit back and make those observations without having to have been there. The "complete" and "exact" parts that are missing would simply have placed Mark in a worse light than described. Unbiased? Give me a break. He had more than a fair opportunity to display any degree of competency. The opinions formed were as a direct result of the gross discrepancy between what he wrote about and would he was able to do (more appropriately put as to how much he could not do). So exactly what aspects of that episode do you have a problem with and why?

Marc Abrams

Toby Threadgill
02-21-2011, 07:54 PM
I've been told by another attendant to the expo who was not involved in the MT affaire the behaviour of some of the "good guys" was not especially gentlemanly

Hello,

That's somewhat true but this behavior stemmed from Tennenhouse's grandiose belief that he was invited there by Stan Pranin to teach a seminar. Nothing could be further from the truth. Stan merely offered Tennenhouse space to perform a Q&A session. When Tennenhouse refused to answer questions like "What is your rank and experience in aikido", and " Can you please demonstrate a typical Aikido Ikkyo?" things got rather heated, and rightfully so. When he then tried to start teaching a seminar, the situation got worse and I interceded. The mess broke up with Tennenhouse refusing to tell anyone how long he trained, with who and what his rank was.

Tennenhouse was hung by his own petard.

Toby

kewms
02-21-2011, 08:15 PM
Among the most illuminating moments was one where Mr Tennenhouse attempted to do a basic Ikkyo on George Ledyard on Saturday. Tennenhouse hadn't a clue and mind you, and George was not giving him a hard time. Tennenhouse never listened to George's attempt to help him, finally got frustrated over his repeated failures and attempted a charging double leg tackle...Yes...against George Ledyard back in his 300lb days. Have you ever seen a car hit a brick wall? Needless to say, the attempt was unsuccessful, George just stood there and Mr Tennenhouse went off to the hospital.....

I'm visualizing this... and trying (and failing) to imagine the level of self-delusion that would be required to think something like this would work.... wow.

Katherine

Keith Larman
02-21-2011, 08:22 PM
I'm visualizing this... and trying (and failing) to imagine the level of self-delusion that would be required to think something like this would work.... wow.

Katherine

And, actually, I know people in Aikido, calm, serene, and very nice people, who would probably have put a world of hurt on someone who would try something like that. Not necessarily intentionally, but sometimes reflexes and reaction kick in before you have a chance to temper the response... And then to try that on someone of George's size and abilities... Yeah, delusion is too kind a word.

Saw a guy repeatedly start to get up after being taken down while the instructor was saying "stay down until I let you back up". The instructor kept releasing the lock because he didn't want to hurt the guy. But after about the third time he just left it on. Didn't crank anything but the guy came up and ran right into it, hurting his shoulder. And he got upset that he was injured. Idiot.

graham christian
02-21-2011, 09:03 PM
Now that's an important point right there that I havn't as yet seen discussed on this forum, recently anyway. The 'hard-headedness' of the uke.

When a technique is done correctly the uke has no choice but to comply. I have watched many demonstrations and been involved in sessions where Ukes were throwing themselves to avoid pain.

On the other hand I can do a soft technique where the uke, through his own resistance and hard headedness tries with all his might to fight it or prove something and ends up hurting.

This point is important to remember I think for it is a major point of Aikido that the uke, when a technique is done properly with care, is the only one who can damage himself through his own resistance.

Regards.G.

Demetrio Cereijo
02-22-2011, 05:56 AM
Marc,

I don't have any problem with what happened and why. David asked "Where can the full account of this be found?". In my opinion, the full account can't be found anywhere. There still are bits and pieces around but some data has been lost, some is in private hands and some is not available for those who don't need to know.

What remains is Threadgill Sensei tape (still unpublished afaik), the memories of the people involved (and not everyone who was there has told what, in their opinion, happened) and a handful of posts around the web, so I don't think a complete picture of the incident exists at this moment.

In some years, the MT incident will be only a story like the Judo vs JJ matches in 19th century Japan, Ueshiba vs the firing squad or Sokaku leveling the Kodokan. What happened, how and why we don't really know.

OTOH, you can think it's very easy making observations without having been there, but it's not. What is easy from here is avoiding the emotional involvement of the people who participated so if I were interested in studying the MT incident as a history aficionado, I would have some advantage at mantaining objectivity and neutrality

dps
02-22-2011, 07:20 AM
Can we see the video?

dps

Marc Abrams
02-22-2011, 07:35 AM
Can we see the video?

dps

David:

The only copy of the video is privately held by Stanley Pranin. It was made for the sole purpose of documenting the gentleman so as to create an independent record in case some legal issues arose from his appearance at the expo. Since there was nothing of a legal nature that arose after the expo, there was simply no use for the video being shown. As many people have noted, the video would serve no real purpose other than to highlight what people have said previously about that person.

There are people out there who do have some additional video clips of "Mark in Action." I can tell you that at best, they are amusing. At worst, just another clip of someone who thought that he know something, but actually knew nothing.

Regards,

Marc

Marc Abrams
02-22-2011, 07:39 AM
Marc,

I don't have any problem with what happened and why. David asked "Where can the full account of this be found?". In my opinion, the full account can't be found anywhere. There still are bits and pieces around but some data has been lost, some is in private hands and some is not available for those who don't need to know.

What remains is Threadgill Sensei tape (still unpublished afaik), the memories of the people involved (and not everyone who was there has told what, in their opinion, happened) and a handful of posts around the web, so I don't think a complete picture of the incident exists at this moment.

In some years, the MT incident will be only a story like the Judo vs JJ matches in 19th century Japan, Ueshiba vs the firing squad or Sokaku leveling the Kodokan. What happened, how and why we don't really know.

OTOH, you can think it's very easy making observations without having been there, but it's not. What is easy from here is avoiding the emotional involvement of the people who participated so if I were interested in studying the MT incident as a history aficionado, I would have some advantage at mantaining objectivity and neutrality

Demetrio:

Alas, history tends to be recorded as snippets cut and pasted together. People even have a tendency to view the same video differently.

To me, the larger reality is that Mark should remain as a irrelevant footnote to an event (series of events, really) that helped to change the face of Aikido today. Stanley's legacy and gift to all of us, should remain focused on the positives and not some silly distraction (my own opinion).

Regards,

marc abrams

Lorel Latorilla
02-22-2011, 07:39 AM
LOL @ people defending trainwrecks like M. Tennenhouse. WTF?

Damn, I haven't heard that name in a long ass time. Good ole' aikido dayz.

Lorel Latorilla
02-22-2011, 07:41 AM
I actually remember seeing the video. Tennenhouse tried to apply an ikkyo on Lynnn Seiser. Couldn't pull it off. Was that in the video as well?

Marc Abrams
02-22-2011, 07:43 AM
I actually remember seeing the video. Tennenhouse tried to apply an ikkyo on Lynnn Seiser. Couldn't pull it off. Was that in the video as well?

Yup,

That was one of my favorite clips! Kind of like watching a train wreck happening :D .

I should be in Tokyo in early June. Let's find a way to meet over some beers, sake,......

Marc

Lorel Latorilla
02-22-2011, 07:49 AM
Hey...Ushiro is in Osaka. You can't make him come over there, desho? :)

Demetrio Cereijo
02-22-2011, 09:46 AM
Demetrio:

Alas, history tends to be recorded as snippets cut and pasted together. People even have a tendency to view the same video differently.

Of course, thats why history is written, rewritten and rewritten again and again. On the tendency to interpret differently the same "facts", you are the psychologist (iirc). Why people gives different interpretations and meanings to the same facts?

To me, the larger reality is that Mark should remain as a irrelevant footnote to an event (series of events, really) that helped to change the face of Aikido today.
Possibly, but for a being an irrelevant footnote he is still used as the mythological example and legendary standard of martial idiocy.

You guys are still carrying him like the young monk was carrying the young lady in the tale. This could mean something... or not.

Stanley's legacy and gift to all of us, should remain focused on the positives and not some silly distraction (my own opinion).
Focusing in the positives, of course. Was not the MT incident part of the positives?

Regards.

Demetrio Cereijo
02-22-2011, 09:49 AM
LOL @ people defending trainwrecks like M. Tennenhouse. WTF?

Defending?

Lorel Latorilla
02-22-2011, 10:04 AM
Demetrio:

Why are you defending this MT bloke? I'm just curious. What things do we have to learn about this trainwreck of a man? Marc and Toby were both there. Are you suggesting that they were embellishing something just so they can purposely defame the man? Are you suggesting that some of the guys there were were deliberately assholes towards the guy? Like Toby said, the dude could have ended up in the hospital if it was a different venue.

You were told by a guy who was not involved in the MT affair? You ARE told by a people who were INVOLVED in the MT affair--these guys have everything to lose if they were to defame MT like that...MT could press charges for defamation (or libel--sorry my knowledge of law sucks). But he wouldn't because 1) they caught him on tape 2) they have record of what he wrote on Aikiweb and Aikijournal. What would these guys have to gain from defaming a train-wreck like MT? These are all guys with different back grounds in martial arts and associations--was MT some kind of powerhouse heretic that these guys had to put him down in a cruel and Machiavellian way?

C. David Henderson
02-22-2011, 10:28 AM
*** still carrying him like the young monk was carrying the young lady in the tale. This could mean something... or not.


I think he suggests a larger principal may be implicated by the discussion.

And anyway, I always liked that story.

Regards,

Marc Abrams
02-22-2011, 10:29 AM
Of course, thats why history is written, rewritten and rewritten again and again. On the tendency to interpret differently the same "facts", you are the psychologist (iirc). Why people gives different interpretations and meanings to the same facts?

Possibly, but for a being an irrelevant footnote he is still used as the mythological example and legendary standard of martial idiocy.

You guys are still carrying him like the young monk was carrying the young lady in the tale. This could mean something... or not.

Focusing in the positives, of course. Was not the MT incident part of the positives?

Regards.

Demetrio:

The simple fact is that I never raised the issue of MT in this thread but simply added commentary after it was already raised, so I do not know why you used the monk analogy. I would certainly agree that he does serve as a stark reminder to the Aikido world about being able to walk the talk, honesty, integrity..... I think that the person who first brought MT up was making a cautionary comparison to the original poster in the thread in which this originated from. I do not view that event as being even remotely similar to a mythology. Anti-mythology at best, since there has been a remarkable degree of under-reporting of the event, as opposed to larger-than-life distortions.

I do not consider the MT incident to be part of the positives. NOBODY I know who was there even remotely views that series of events in a positive manner. Greek comedy at best.... My positive memories are with the remarkable instructors, teachers, friends,... whom I was lucky enough to spend that time with.

Marc Abrams

Demetrio Cereijo
02-22-2011, 10:51 AM
Demetrio:

Why are you defending this MT bloke? I'm just curious.
I'm not defending him, read my previous posts.

What things do we have to learn about this trainwreck of a man?
Its not about learning from him, its about learning about how things happen in the modern budo subculture.

Marc and Toby were both there. Are you suggesting that they were embellishing something just so they can purposely defame the man?
I'm not suggesting some kind of aiki conspiracy against MT. I'm suggesting the complete history, all the relevant data, oppinions (what David Orange was asking for) is not available. For good causes possibly, but available is not.

Are you suggesting that some of the guys there were deliberately assholes towards the guy? Like Toby said, the dude could have ended up in the hospital if it was a different venue./QUOTE]
Deliberately or unconsciously or as a justified and deserved reaction to MT behaviour. Aikido people can be assholes too. They are no emotionless enlightened ascetic monks nor skirt wearing vulcanians. MT could have ended in a hospital if this happened in a different environment. Probably. Your point?

[QUOTE]You were told by a guy who was not involved in the MT affair? You ARE told by a people who were INVOLVED in the MT affair--these guys have everything to lose if they were to defame MT like that...MT could press charges for defamation (or libel--sorry my knowledge of law sucks).
Saying a guy sucks at aikido can be seen as defamation or libel? Really? Are the USA so different?

But he wouldn't because 1) they caught him on tape 2) they have record of what he wrote on Aikiweb and Aikijournal. What would these guys have to gain from defaming a train-wreck like MT?
Nothing, but where is the defamation? In saying MT can't pull a decent Ikkyo? Seriously?

These are all guys with different back grounds in martial arts and associations--was MT some kind of powerhouse heretic that these guys had to put him down in a cruel and Machiavellian way?
Or they simply overreacted. With the available data any conclusion is possible depending on individual agendas.

Demetrio Cereijo
02-22-2011, 11:13 AM
Demetrio:

The simple fact is that I never raised the issue of MT in this thread but simply added commentary after it was already raised, so I do not know why you used the monk analogy.
I wrote "you guys"... It wasn't adressed at you particularly.

I would certainly agree that he does serve as a stark reminder to the Aikido world about being able to walk the talk, honesty, integrity..... I think that the person who first brought MT up was making a cautionary comparison to the original poster in the thread in which this originated from.
Sure. So MT affaire aquired a meaning trascending its own circunstances. Maybe some day, when one makes up some martial BS, we will say: "he pulled a Tennenhouse".

I do not view that event as being even remotely similar to a mythology. Anti-mythology at best, since there has been a remarkable degree of under-reporting of the event, as opposed to larger-than-life distortions.
Well, MT is still in the memories of the aikido community and the story is still used as a dire warning.

I do not consider the MT incident to be part of the positives. NOBODY I know who was there even remotely views that series of events in a positive manner. Greek comedy at best....
Or an exemplum.

Marc Abrams
02-22-2011, 11:18 AM
I'm not defending him, read my previous posts.

Its not about learning from him, its about learning about how things happen in the modern budo subculture.

Very good point! The lesson observed by me was a re-affirmation as to how kind Aikidoka are in comparison to a lot of other martial artists. In a karate, judo, boxing, mma,.... environment, MT would have most likely received a fierce beating. In this instance, MT hurt himself by virtue of his own tipless judgment (trying to do a double leg takedown on a person twice your weight with better balance and body structure).

I'm not suggesting some kind of aiki conspiracy against MT. I'm suggesting the complete history, all the relevant data, oppinions (what David Orange was asking for) is not available. For good causes possibly, but available is not.

What is available on the public domain and spoken about on this forum should simply speak for itself. People can draw what ever conclusions that would like and write whatever history they feel is necessary. " All" and "complete" are two words that do not work well in regards to history. We do the best we can with what we have at the time.

[QUOTE]Are you suggesting that some of the guys there were deliberately assholes towards the guy? Like Toby said, the dude could have ended up in the hospital if it was a different venue./QUOTE]
Deliberately or unconsciously or as a justified and deserved reaction to MT behaviour. Aikido people can be assholes too. They are no emotionless enlightened ascetic monks nor skirt wearing vulcanians. MT could have ended in a hospital if this happened in a different environment. Probably. Your point?

Aikidoka tend to act in a passive-aggressive manner more than an aggressive manner (in my own opinion). The events surrounding MT, to me, indicated that he was treated with a degree of kindness and respect that most people would never have extended to him in many other circumstances. We did have legitimate emotional responses to what turned out to be little more than a fraud, and despite that, he suffered no injuries as a result of how people treated him.

Or they simply overreacted. With the available data any conclusion is possible depending on individual agendas.

Despite a skeptical audience (based upon what he said and refused to say before the expo), he was given a venue to back up what he said. Nobody there over-reacted to what he did and did not do (my opinion). People can draw whatever conclusions they see fit. I really did not and do not see any personal agendas in what I have read from other people on this forum about MT. Their accounting was tempered, modest and did a good job at respectfully describing an unfortunate event.

Regards,

Marc Abrams

Demetrio Cereijo
02-22-2011, 11:22 AM
I think he suggests a larger principal may be implicated by the discussion.
Maybe the larger principal has dropped the lady years ago. He did what had to be done at that moment and that's all.

And anyway, I always liked that story.
MT story or the river crossing monks story? :)

Marc Abrams
02-22-2011, 11:33 AM
Maybe the larger principal has dropped the lady years ago. He did what had to be done at that moment and that's all.

MT story or the river crossing monks story? :)

Demetrio:

On that note, let us allow this side note to fade off into the sunset....

I look forward to meeting you one day in person. I respect your intellectual honesty and integrity that is reflected in your posts. I will be in Jura, France next month for the Ushiro Sensei seminar. If you are nearby, please drop in.

Regards,

marc abrams

Demetrio Cereijo
02-22-2011, 11:46 AM
Demetrio:

On that note, let us allow this side note to fade off into the sunset....
No problem.

I look forward to meeting you one day in person. I respect your intellectual honesty and integrity that is reflected in your posts. I will be in Jura, France next month for the Ushiro Sensei seminar. If you are nearby, please drop in.
A thousand miles away from here. I'd like to meet you and, of course Ushiro Sensei, but I have very limited resources and time for travelling. Maybe in the future. Thanks anyway.

Take care

lbb
02-22-2011, 11:57 AM
Suggestion: a Soap Opera forum for aikiweb. For those so inclined.

dps
02-22-2011, 12:41 PM
This should be a caution to certain individuals harboring delusions of grandeur, but alas wisdom is not so obstreperous.

Toby

I not sure of the meaning of the last part of your sentence. Do you mean that;

wisdom is not so "Noisily and stubbornly defiant." (http://www.answers.com/topic/obstreperous)

or

wisdom is not so "Aggressively boisterous." (http://www.answers.com/topic/obstreperous)

dps

dps
02-22-2011, 12:44 PM
How did George become his uke?

Were there other people that were his uke?

dps

Toby Threadgill
02-22-2011, 01:55 PM
Hi,

I actually have an copy of the entire event, not just snippets. Stan wanted me to have it as a back up in case any legal issue presented itself and his copy was damaged or lost. It was understood that this tape would not be made public and I will continue to respect his wishes.

I viewed the tape again last night and must agree with Marc Abrams, viewing the tape only confirms that my memory of the event is completely accurate. Tennenhouse behaved in a way that was bizarre and hard to justify. Additionally, the "good guys" critically called into question here on this forum were exactly as I remember and very restrained given the disconnect between what Tennenhouse claimed and what he presented. I think the aikidoka present demonstrated nothing beyond justified agitation. There certainly were jeers and such but given that the event was promoted as a Q&A, when questions were ignored it's reasonable to expect that some vociferious frustration would become evident.

Demetrio,

I'm sorry but to imply that it is impossible to evaluate this incident because all the facts are not available is nonsense. There are a lot of people here who were directly involved in this incident as it happened. Plus at least one I know of has the entire event on tape. That's pretty solid stuff. Your apparent qualifications for obtaining a complete picture of the event is fantastic and impossible to meet. Remember, I am not an aikidoka and had no dog in this fight. I was pretty much an independent observer until I saw with my own eyes what Tennenhouse really represented. At that point yes, I formed an opinion based on the facts as they unfolded right in front of me. Compared to other events like Ueshiba's dodging bullets or being showered with golden light, this one is pretty well supported and documented. At some point you have to accept that everyone's observation of an event will be colored ala Rashomon, but I believe David Orange's requirement's of "A full account" can be met realistically, while yours cannot.

@DPS

Simple...People demonstrating delusions of grandeur are frequently associated with stubborn and loud cries of defiance. People exhibiting wisdom, not so much.

As for George, Tennenhouse attended a few seminars the first day of the Expo. He participated in a seminar taught by Todd Jones sensei, the topic of which was performing aikido waza against a lead hand jab. The first technique was a version of sayonage. His partner was a thin aikido black belt I don't know but Tennenhouse never executed the technique successfully on this gentleman who didn't appear to know who Tennenhouse was. The next technique was Ikkyo and his partner was nice guy, Lynn Seiser. Same result with Lynn excuting at a speed you'd have to call moderate to slow. Frankly, during the session with Lynn Tennenhouse looked like he'd never attempted ikkyo on anyone. Tennenhouse next partnered with George Ledyard. On the tape you can clearly observe George slowly throwing jabs at Tennenhouse and tapping him lightly on the head. George was not jerking Tennenhouses chain in any way but finally shook his head and flashed a frustrated look at me because Tennenhouse clearly had no clue how to perform ikkyo and would not take any of George's advice. Finally Tennenhouse visibly frustrated attempted to tackle George, so George simply moves slightly back and corrected his posture. Tennenhouse flopped over on his back and that was it. Rather anticlimactic actually.

Toby

dps
02-22-2011, 02:00 PM
Toby,

Thank you

dps

C. David Henderson
02-22-2011, 02:07 PM
MT story or the river crossing monks story? :)

Both, as it happens.

Demetrio Cereijo
02-22-2011, 03:37 PM
Demetrio,

I'm sorry but to imply that it is impossible to evaluate this incident because all the facts are not available is nonsense.
Impossible is nothing (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_lqjkEa4Hjqc/RgK9ZZ8MEuI/AAAAAAAAAAc/tpGSwf_aas8/s400/adidas_impossible%2Bis%2Bnothing.bmp), what we have here is not impossibility, what we have is difficulty.

There are a lot of people here who were directly involved in this incident as it happened. Plus at least one I know of has the entire event on tape. That's pretty solid stuff. Your apparent qualifications for obtaining a complete picture of the event is fantastic and impossible to meet.
My apparent qualifications? What do you mean? I don't have any qualifications: I haven't a formal education in Martial Arts History, Budo Anthropology, Journalism or similar/related field, I don't remember having claimed being a professional historian or playing one on TV. My background is in HHRR/Human Factors.

Also, I haven't asked you (pl) to give me all the data for making an opinion by myself (who am I to ask for that?). I've only pointed to the "full account" not being available. You say what is around is enough to achieve a conclusive understanding of the event. Can we agree to disagree?

Remember, I am not an aikidoka and had no dog in this fight. I was pretty much an independent observer until I saw with my own eyes what Tennenhouse really represented. At that point yes, I formed an opinion based on the facts as they unfolded right in front of me. Compared to other events like Ueshiba's dodging bullets or being showered with golden light, this one is pretty well supported and documented.
Sure, no problem.

At some point you have to accept that everyone's observation of an event will be colored ala Rashomon, but I believe David Orange's requirement's of "A full account" can be met realistically, while yours cannot.
Ah, Rashomon... great movie.

SeiserL
02-22-2011, 04:05 PM
nice guy, Lynn Seiser.
No need for name calling Sensei. LOL

Toby Threadgill
02-22-2011, 05:05 PM
I've only pointed to the "full account" not being available. You say what is around is enough to achieve a conclusive understanding of the event. Can we agree to disagree?.

Hi Demetrio,

Sure, we can agree to disagree but it was David Orange that posed the question. It's up to him to qualify or stipulate what constitutes a "full account".

(It's obvious a language issue exists here given you misunderstood my use of the word "qualifications" in my previous post (think requirements, stipulations, conditions) so we could be talking past one another.)

It is my impression that David wanting the full story meant he wanted to hear the story from someone who was actually there as opposed to the half baked 3rd hand rumors that are floating around the aikido community. David never implied in my mind that he was seeking something on the order of court evidence and/or legal depositions.

David...If you're out there, are you satisfied you got the "full account"? Between what's been presented by me and Marc Abrams I can't think of anything relevant to add. If something we said was off base I'm sure George and or Lynn would step in to clarify.

Toby

Marc Abrams
02-22-2011, 05:16 PM
Hi Demetrio,

Sure, we can agree to disagree but it was David Orange that posed the question. It's up to him to qualify or stipulate what constitutes a "full account".

(It's obvious a language issue exists here given you misunderstood my use of the word "qualifications" in my previous post (think requirements, stipulations, conditions) so we could be talking past one another.)

It is my impression that David wanting the full story meant he wanted to hear the story from someone who was actually there as opposed to the half baked 3rd hand rumors that are floating around the aikido community. David never implied in my mind that he was seeking something on the order of court evidence and/or legal depositions.

David...If you're out there, are you satisfied you got the "full account"? Between what's been presented by me and Marc Abrams I can't think of anything relevant to add. If something we said was off base I'm sure George and or Lynn would step in to clarify.

Toby

Toby:

If we wanted to add more, we could point out that MT's Q & A was an attempt on his part to "teach" his "way." My impressions were that a) he did not have a clue as to the teaching methodology behind static grabs b) did not have a real understanding of the basics of a proper attack c) did not have a real understanding of the basics of a kokyu-nage. Needless to say, that "starting point" was the beginning of the train wreck...... My fond recollection of the end of that episode was Mr. Threadgill and Mr. Williams following MT out to the back door as he tried to escape from having to answer questions that they asked about his training, rank, etc....

Marc Abrams

Demetrio Cereijo
02-22-2011, 06:01 PM
Hi Demetrio,

Sure, we can agree to disagree but it was David Orange that posed the question. It's up to him to qualify or stipulate what constitutes a "full account".
Of course.

(It's obvious a language issue exists here given you misunderstood my use of the word "qualifications" in my previous post (think requirements, stipulations, conditions) so we could be talking past one another.)
Yes, I need better dictionaries.

Regards.

PS. I still owe you a beer waza session.

SeiserL
02-22-2011, 06:34 PM
If something we said was off base I'm sure George and or Lynn would step in to clarify.
IMHO, its clear and accurate.

Toby Threadgill
02-22-2011, 10:08 PM
PS. I still owe you a beer waza session.

Demetrio,

I'll be in Ronda, Spain next week and again the fall

:)

Toby

George S. Ledyard
02-22-2011, 11:52 PM
Focusing in the positives, of course. Was not the MT incident part of the positives?

Regards.

Well, of course it turned out that way for me. I had taught a class during that Expo... but because there were so many classes going on simultaneously, with some of the real "big names" as well, I had about eight to ten folks in my class of whom all but one or two already had trained with me at some previous time. So it wasn't that great from the standpoint of making new connections.

Then, Tennenhouse threw his back out trying to do a double leg on me (I didn't even sprawl in an attempt NOT to hurt him, I merely stepped back into hanmi and grabbed his obi and held his butt in the air so he couldn't drive me back on my heels)...

Within an hour people I had never met, had no idea who they were, cam up to me asking if "I was the guy who'd taken out Tennenhouse?" I had no idea that many people knew about Tennenhouse... sure as hell a lot more than knew who I was... probably an example of that saying that "no publicity is bad publicity". By the end of the Expo, far more people knew me as the guy who had taken out Tennenhouse than had seen any of my Aikido... Ellis even ended up writing a piece explaining that I had not, in any way, done anything to hurt the fellow. I was going to get a t-shirt that said "I didn't do it".

Anyway, the guy was clearly not tracking. It would have been like injuring a handicapped person. I was actually trying to help him when he hurt himself because it was so apparent he hadn't a clue.

Dan Rubin
02-23-2011, 07:50 AM
Here's Mr. Tennenhouse's side of the story, posted soon after the event:
http://www.bullshido.net/forums/archive/index.php/t-14772-p-8.html

Scroll down to the post by "backwardwalker" (that's him). His post is followed by reactions to it (all negative) and his responses.

dps
02-23-2011, 08:15 AM
In this article (http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=631) he mentions taking Tomiki Aikido.

Does anyone know where at.

dps

Dan Rubin
02-23-2011, 08:39 AM
In the Bullshido thread I referenced above, I only read to the bottom of that page (page 8). I now see that on subsequent pages the conversation continues, including posts by a couple of posters to the present thread.

As for Tomiki Aikido, based on Toby's earlier post (#6), apparently his teacher was Ronald Gotlin. You can find his information here: http://www.ehow.com/members/ev_6231625e-a7d2-436d-b5fb-08a47d6aede6.html

akiy
02-23-2011, 09:56 AM
Hi folks,

I don't see how this thread can really shed any further light on the events that occurred, and I can't see this discussion really being positive.

As such -- thread closed.

-- Jun