Tameshigiri

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[Mike Sigman]

Had to laugh at the mat-cutting shown in the earlier part of the video on this page:

http://www.coldsteel.com/spear.html

FWIW

Mike Sigman

[Rob Watson]

Clearly, the guys a Cold Steel are disgruntled butchers as they sure do like to chop meat up. You know they hold an annual get together kind of like wanna be Dog Brothers?

[Mike Sigman]

Part of my thought was "there goes my worries about all the 'special angles' for a good sword cut, and so on". If those guys can smack a spear through a cutting mat, given the attendant lack of precision angle control, I think I'd pass on bowing and scraping to some guy wearing black culottes taking a year of my time to teach me the Sacred Way (tm). ;)

Mike

[Rob Watson]

Teddy Roosevelt had it right about the big stick. Same with the Scotsmen of old and their Claymore just get a weapon big enough and it will scare the meanies away. Failing that swing hard and fast and scream like an escapee from the asylum whilst wearing loose short skirts and no undergarments. Preferably while your opponent flounders in a muddy bog while trying to get at you. A steady diet of coarse oats brewed in sheep guts helps build the stamina.

[DH]

Lynn is more than well aware of real tameshigiri and that he cannot cut well, He has hired experts in the past, He's just selling a spear and showing that it can be used as weapon.
I'm sure you can get a bunch of people to join in with you in laughing at this guy and cutting him up but...
Is laughing at him, positive in any way?
Is this a clinical discussion?

As to the insult to the arts
"bowing and scraping to some guy wearing black culottes taking a year of my time to teach me the Sacred Way™...
There is far more to weapons than any type of proper cutting demonstration, and there is a reason that most Koryu don't typically even bother with it. There is far more to cutting than demonstrating successful bashing cuts or even correct single cuts-that is phenomenally effective and practical in every way. And few understand just how and why that is. It's easy to make fun of arts when you don't have clue what is contained in them.

Folks
Other than shining a light on it, and correcting it- this level of discussion and behaviour (laced with insults to the community) is not something we should be part of. I hope you will agree.

Dan

..

[Mike Sigman]

I don't think any rational person took that as a comment about the guy swinging the spear. The point was.... tameshigiri doesn't take a Japanese sword and a massive attention to angles.

Mike Sigman

[DH]

I don't think any rational person took that as a comment about the guy swinging the spear. The point was.... tameshigiri doesn't take a Japanese sword and a massive attention to angles.

Mike Sigman
I appreciate ...yet again the implied insult.
Okay then as a non-rational person:
How is this "bowing and scraping to some guy wearing black culottes taking a year of my time to teach me the Sacred Way™..
relevant to this point
"tameshigiri doesn't take a Japanese sword and a massive attention to angles."
It isn't. the former is invective inserted as another casual slur on the arts instead of making the later observation.

When people actually study real weapons under someone -more likely wearing blue or white culottes - they learn and understand a few things. Not the least of which is why angles are far more important than a single cut on a target, applied body mechanics, and why you would NEVER expend that much energy to a cut and what you did wrong and so on. Hell, oddly enough most of the time-in the long run- they even wind up respecting the arts and the effort of teachers in them.
Something which we also provide to doubters here at my dojo...while wearing armor and going at it freestyle,.is another version of clinical discussion. When they're covered in welts and black and blue they pretty much figure out there are things they made fun of that they still don't...really....understand.
In the fullness of time I have found that most martial artists I've worked with find it interesting to be able to learn something that actually has depth.
Dan

.

[Mike Sigman]

When people actually study under someone-more likely wearing blue or white culottes- they learn and understand a few things. Forgive me for taking the discussion back to my point.... cutting a mat with a blade, not even a specialized Japanese sword, is not so hard, IMO, after watching that video. That was my point. Nothing about armor or anything else. Cutting a mat without even a sword is not as hard as many of us had been previously led to believe. Period. That's all I was saying.

Mike Sigman

[DH]

Forgive me for taking the discussion back to my point....
Well good, that's progress. Maybe it would have been better for you to have stayed with your point in the first place and kept it clean and clinical.

You want to talk cutting and not needing a sword?
Here's an example:
Here...we have guys cut live trees with 30" Katana held in two hands.
Then I out cut them with a 16" kukri held in one.
See how easy that was without the need for insults added in?

Then again, my previous points covered a much broader range of implied practical and tactical understanding of weapons in an engagement which is better -learned from someone in culottes- than stumbling around reinventing the wheel or seeing people taking pot shots at something they can't even begin to fathom.
Just say'n
Dan

[DH]

Edit:
From a Koryu P.M.
Good points, Dan and it's safer too.
Dan

[Gorgeous George]

An animal had to die so this barbarian could swing around his little toy.

Nice outfit.

[mathewjgano]

...cutting a mat with a blade, not even a specialized Japanese sword, is not so hard, IMO, after watching that video.
I thought the quality of the cut was an important factor though: if a smallish sword can cut it, of course a 4" thick blade on the end of a lever can, right?

[Keith Larman]

wow.

My grandmother drove to the market once a week up into her mid-90's. It's not too difficult to drive a car. Damn, we should have signed her up to compete in NASCAR.

It's not hard to do push hands. Here, watch, I'm pushing my hands back and forth. Voila. What's the big deal?

Gotta go cut some cucumbers for a party. Oooh, wait, those cucumbers sliced so easily... I'm gonna go take on a FMA guy since I've obviously got mAd SKLZ!

[Keith Larman]

If your only criterion is successfully cutting the target it is easy. Sharp sword, soft target. Not that complicated.

If you, however, want to actually do it in such a way that you could survive a confrontation with a motivated opponent who also has a sharp pointy, well, things get a bit more complicated. Suddenly it matters how you start your swing. Suddenly it matters how much you open. Suddenly it matters how you close the distance (if I can reach you, you can reach me).

Lynn sells a lot of swords. Most watch his demos and shrug. It has as much to do with swordsmanship as my grandmother's poking along at 8 miles an hour in her car has to do with race car driving.

[Mike Sigman]

If your only criterion is successfully cutting the target it is easy. Sharp sword, soft target. Not that complicated.

If you, however, want to actually do it in such a way that you could survive a confrontation with a motivated opponent who also has a sharp pointy, .... I understand that, Keith, and I think that's pretty obvious to the most casual observer. But that's not what the O.P. was about. In the O.P. I simply observed that cutting Tameshigiri mats isn't very hard. If you're saying that you don't think I can cut a mat like that with a sharp blade, let's make a bet and get down to it.

I think all of us recognize that handling a sword for a real fight, etc., is something else entirely and would take a lot of practice. That's stating the obvious. It's also why in the late 1960's I quit practicing with various kobudo weapons.... why would I spend a lot of time practicing proficiency with weapons that I'm likely to never have with me in the event of a real fight? So while I realize that some people are taking my simple comment about cutting a mat as somehow an affront to manhood and so on, please don't take it that way. I made a simple observation. If you don't think I can cut a rolled up mat without knowing all those other fancy things, let's set up the terms of get on with it. I could use the dough. ;)

Mike

[oisin bourke]

Part of my thought was "there goes my worries about all the 'special angles' for a good sword cut, and so on". If those guys can smack a spear through a cutting mat, given the attendant lack of precision angle control, I think I'd pass on bowing and scraping to some guy wearing black culottes taking a year of my time to teach me the Sacred Way (tm). ;)

Mike

Here's a very good article about some of the deeper levels of tameshigiri.

http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=598

[Keith Larman]

Part of my thought was "there goes my worries about all the 'special angles' for a good sword cut, and so on". If those guys can smack a spear through a cutting mat, given the attendant lack of precision angle control, I think I'd pass on bowing and scraping to some guy wearing black culottes taking a year of my time to teach me the Sacred Way (tm). ;)

Mike

Well, there you go.

[Lorel Latorilla]

Is it time we put some people on our ignore lists?

[gregstec]

Here's a very good article about some of the deeper levels of tameshigiri.

http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=598

Very good article - it reminds us that there is more to the study of budo then just the physical manifestation of the technique. The technique is just the tip of the iceberg and that there is much more below the surface that makes up the whole.

The video in the OP does not represent Tameshigiri in anyway - by considering it as such is either an indication of ignorance of true budo or an intentional cheap shot at those that study Tameshigiri - if it's the former, so be it; now you know better. However, if it's the latter, well, there has been enough of that type of stuff going on lately and it needs to stop.

Just My Opinion

Greg

[Mike Sigman]

Very good article - it reminds us that there is more to the study of budo

Greg, I'm not sure if you and a couple of others are trying to start a separate discussion about Budo in a thread that's supposed to be about how easy it is to cut a beach-mat with just about any old blade, or whether you're just doing some of the usual meat-puppetry and astroturfing. Would you mind starting a separate thread if you want to talk about Budo? Thanks.

Mike Sigman

[sakumeikan]

Hi All.
I think a lion would be a bit upset if an bearded gentlemen was thrusting a spear in its breadbasket.
If ever I was being attacked by an angry car bonnet I guess I might say to myself 'Gee whiz, wish I had my penetrating spear with me, must have left it on the mantlepiece'.
If there is the possibility of reincarnation maybe the piece of meat will get revenge and set about taking a few rump steaks from our bearded friend?
If the guy wants to sell his merchandise could he not just show the item sharpening pencils?I hardly think I am likely to meet a wild pig/kingly lion in a leafy suburb of Newcastle upon Tyne.Maybe If I met this guy I would be more frightened of him than the wild animals?
Cheers, Joe.

[Keith Larman]

It is a very good article.

I'll also point out that there are other reasons some do this on a purely practical basis. Consider some of the cutting patterns used in tai kai for higher level participants. They involve multiple mats, stopping the blade mid swing, changing directions, etc. The ability to quickly, smoothly make multiple varied cuts (angles, directions, etc.) while maintaining strong control of the sword and good body mechanics to ensure the best cuts possible is extremely difficult. So it's not "show" and "fireworks". And the act of actually cutting the mat is almost incidental to what is really being demonstrated and/or evaluated. Everything else demonstrated while cutting is where the skill lies.

Cutting a mat without even a sword is not as hard as many of us had been previously led to believe. Period.

Cutting a mat *well*... Just like every other skill.

[Josh Reyer]

Greg, I'm not sure if you and a couple of others are trying to start a separate discussion about Budo in a thread that's supposed to be about how easy it is to cut a beach-mat with just about any old blade, or whether you're just doing some of the usual meat-puppetry and astroturfing. Would you mind starting a separate thread if you want to talk about Budo? Thanks.

Dude, you brought it up.

If those guys can smack a spear through a cutting mat, given the attendant lack of precision angle control, I think I'd pass on bowing and scraping to some guy wearing black culottes taking a year of my time to teach me the Sacred Way (tm).

[Mike Sigman]

It is a very good article.

I'll also point out that there are other reasons some do this on a purely practical basis. I have no doubt there are. As I said previously, a lot of this is obvious to the most casual observer. However, this thread started out as a humorous comment about how cutting mats is not as difficult as one would generally be led to believe. In fact, IIRC, I offered a wager along those lines.... for the right dough I'll be happy to whip out one of my butcher knives and demonstrate. Any takers? ;) Anyone want to bet that I can't cut a mat because I haven't taken lessons in the approved style?

Mike Sigman

[MM]

Greg, I'm not sure if you and a couple of others are trying to start a separate discussion about Budo in a thread that's supposed to be about how easy it is to cut a beach-mat with just about any old blade, or whether you're just doing some of the usual meat-puppetry and astroturfing. Would you mind starting a separate thread if you want to talk about Budo? Thanks.

Mike Sigman

Um, you're in a thread titled, "Non-Aikido Martial Traditions".

You opened the thread with the title: Tameshigiri.

You stated:
I think I'd pass on bowing and scraping to some guy wearing black culottes taking a year of my time to teach me the Sacred Way (tm). ;)


And now you're backing away from your own words when people are calling you on them? If you do not like budo, why are you here? Aikido is budo. Tameshigiri is budo. Why the subtle jabs at budo people? Bowing and scraping? Really?

[Mike Sigman]

Here we go with the usual by the usual crowd. Bye guys. Could have been a good thread on cutting, but the agenda guys destroyed it.

Mike Sigman

[MM]

However, this thread started out as a humorous comment about how cutting mats is not as difficult as one would generally be led to believe.


Why didn't you use the Ginsu commercial? Because you're comparing people demonstrating cutting for their brand product in a business with Budo. You find it funny to do so. Then, you go on to state:


I think I'd pass on bowing and scraping to some guy wearing black culottes taking a year of my time to teach me the Sacred Way (tm). ;)

Mike

and


Anyone want to bet that I can't cut a mat because I haven't taken lessons in the approved style?

Mike Sigman

You want to degrade and make fun of budo, how about going somewhere else?

[gregstec]

Greg, I'm not sure if you and a couple of others are trying to start a separate discussion about Budo in a thread that's supposed to be about how easy it is to cut a beach-mat with just about any old blade,

Well, why didn't you just call the thread that instead of Tameshigiri?

or whether you're just doing some of the usual meat-puppetry and astroturfing. Would you mind starting a separate thread if you want to talk about Budo? Thanks.

Mike Sigman

Well, we all need a hobby - I don't mind being a meat puppet and doing some astroturfing as long as it makes the world a better place - however, I won't be a sockpuppet; how about you? :)

FWIW

Greg

[MM]

Here we go with the usual by the usual crowd. Bye guys. Could have been a good thread on cutting, but the agenda guys destroyed it.

Mike Sigman

There was an agenda ... by you. You thought it humorous to compare someone demonstrating a business to tameshigiri in budo. Everyone posted in defense of budo and tameshigiri and then you say they have an agenda?

[Mike Sigman]

how about going somewhere else?Accepted.

Mike Sigman

[Marc Abrams]

Folks,

Let's stop beating the dead horse. I am obviously not a fan of Mr. Sigman (nor is he a fan of mine for that matter).

Mr. Sigman did not apparently understand the depth that comes with traditions contained with koryu. It takes a lot of time spend within a tradition to understand all that is entailed, beyond the visible practice (as was pointed out by Mr. Harden). He was apparently poking fun at some aspect of the visible, without understanding how that would negatively impact those whose traditions are represented in that type of practice.

Mr. Sigman has clearly indicated that he is leaving the thread and going elsewhere. Let us appreciate the calm of the moment and allow this thread to end. I greatly appreciate Mr. Sigman's good decision in not going forward with responses and inflaming things further. Let us all do the same.

Regards,

Marc Abrams

[Mike Sigman]

Mr. Sigman did not apparently understand the depth that comes with traditions contained with koryu. It takes a lot of time spend within a tradition to understand all that is entailed, beyond the visible practice (as was pointed out by Mr. Harden). He was apparently poking fun at some aspect of the visible, without understanding how that would negatively impact those whose traditions are represented in that type of practice.
Marc, instead of doing a long-distance, keyboard analysis of what's wrong with me, in public, why not just save it until you're here in Durango next time and you can explain the depths of Budo and koryu to me. I will learn from you.

Regards,

Mike Sigman