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Tenyu
02-05-2011, 09:22 AM
Hi all,

After over a year of independent study by myself I've decided to share the development of a new style of Aikido which I'm calling Aikibodo. Although I discovered and created most of the forms I currently practice, I have had many great teachers in my short life that have influenced and enabled me to be in such a position.

I trained in Seido Juku Karate under Kaicho Tadashi Nakamura at honbu dojo in NYC for three years. His school has positively changed the lives of tens of thousands of people all over the world, and I'm quite fortunate my brother Tenchi persistently advised me to join for years until I actually got the guts to do it. I was able to train with some of the most compassionate and physically talented people I've ever met. The collective intensity of training was unbelievably phenomenal. Aikibodo could not exist without Seido and the strength of spirit it instills.

Afterwards I trained in Aikido for two and a half years at Tom Read Sensei's dojo in Arcata CA under a handful of dedicated, inspiring teachers. The giant Carl Tissol allowed me to attack and practice takemusu ukemi at a level rivaling my karate experience, a rare privilege. The grounded wisdom of Peggy Ilene created a peaceful yet powerful presence I admire. Read Sensei taught me the theoretical principles of Aiki and foundational forms of Aikibojitsu which in combination with the staffwork of Morihei Ueshiba ultimately guided the base forms of Aikibodo. Read Sensei recently published a technical book which I highly recommend for any serious Aikidoist. I made a few private interpersonal mistakes and a couple public ones here on Aikiweb which I take full responsibility for, but mixed with unrelated political issues of a board managed dojo and confluence of events, I had no choice but to become independent in order to continue and progress with my training. I wish the Northcoast Aikido Dojo continued success, as they help other students in learning Aikido and Aikibojitsu.

The other main influence has been my research, experience, and appreciation of traditional independent post-war gospel. I've created the largest digital archive of previously unknown and unrecognized quartets from the 60's through early 80's on the internet, all available for free: http://www.hollygroverecords.com/index.php?act=gospel I've been deeply humbled by the buddha-like nature of these veteran ‘shihans of harmony' who, despite being ignored by academic institutions while untold number pass away each year, I consider national treasures.

For those concerned with rank, I'm officially a 4th kyu in Karate and Aikido. I just started my first weekly public Aikibodo class yesterday. Ideally I'd wait till I've developed a few students locally for a couple years before attempting to share elsewhere. But due to imminent consequences of global fossil fuel depletion, such luxury of time may not exist. For those unaware of our present predicament, a general overview is available here: http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/ I've studied peak oil theory and history in depth for six years and have no desire to discuss in length on this matter here. Aikido is a study of how we use personal energy to interact with the universe, whereas Peak Oil is a study of society's insanely unsustainable and irreplaceable dependence on terminally declining cheap energy sources. I'm happy to provide more resources of information via forum or private message, please ask if interested.

Here is a link to video of the Umi Kata recorded last August: http://www.youtube.com/user/WayOftheStaff (There is some external compensation for the deep sand and roaring ocean.) The kata contains more complex forms intended for the advanced practitioner but the most important basic forms are accessible to anybody regardless of physical ability or age. I'm now making myself available to share this beautiful practice with anyone dedicated and sincerely interested. Please refer and address me by my first name, no formal titles please!

respectfully,
Tenyu Hamaki

niall
02-08-2011, 08:43 AM
Hi Tenyu,

I'm commenting because I had never heard of Seido Karate until today. And it wasn't reading your post - it was checking out where a famous Japanese quote - nana korobi ya oki - fall down seven times, get up eight times - came from after a comment on my blog (the link is below if you want to see). I found a very nice and clear explanation at SeidoIndia (http://seidoindia.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=7:get-up&catid=3:about-karatedo&Itemid=5). Looking for a way to tell them that I appreciated the article I found a link to the Seido Karate (http://www.seido.com/) hombu dojo in New York. And then I saw that nobody had replied to your post and I noticed that Seido name again. Wow. Synchronicity. I saw that the dojo does work with young adults and with blind and visually impaired students and veterans as well as normal training. Very cool.

I have one technical comment. Sometimes your foot is landing a fraction before the strike and it seems to me you are losing a little power because of that. But the movements look very fluid and interesting.

How long is your bo? It looks like a jo.

I wish you the very best of luck.

And the quote was by Daruma Taishi...

George S. Ledyard
02-08-2011, 12:53 PM
Just a suggestion... when you list the Teachers you have trained with on a forum, it's like your references on your resume. Folks are apt to check the references... You don't generally list the boss who fired you as a reference. This is a very small community...

My recommendation is for folks to go to the source...
Tom Read Sensei and Aikibojitsu (http://www.aikibojitsu.com/)

Aikibojutsu and the Structure of Natural Law (http://www.aikibojitsu.com/Store.html) Tom Read Sensei's new book.

Howard Popkin
02-08-2011, 01:44 PM
Nakamura was a top Kyokushin guy from the early days. He has one of the largest dojos in NYC. He is excellent.

http://seido.com/

Howard

Demetrio Cereijo
02-08-2011, 02:26 PM
Excerpts of Tom Read Sensei book on Aikibojutsu here:

http://www.aikibojitsu.com/BookExcerpts.html

phitruong
02-08-2011, 04:33 PM
Here is a link to video of the Umi Kata recorded last August: http://www.youtube.com/user/WayOftheStaff (There is some external compensation for the deep sand and roaring ocean.) The kata contains more complex forms intended for the advanced practitioner but the most important basic forms are accessible to anybody regardless of physical ability or age. I'm now making myself available to share this beautiful practice with anyone dedicated and sincerely interested. Please refer and address me by my first name, no formal titles please!



hey, those bo moves looked like the moves made by this beef cake here doing with the sword http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQRFuBeRAi4#t=1m27s

the beef cake looked better though with the well oiled body and such. i am thinking if i have body like that, my wife won't let me out of the house to attend various seminars, where i would learn that the way of weapons is the quickest way to put the business ends into the other buggers and introduce him/her/it to the pain and suffering of income tax. :D

i tell ya, all these spiritual stuffs with weapons are really messed me up.

JW
02-08-2011, 05:00 PM
Dude. Phi, that was TOTALLY NSFW. Not only do I need a cold shower but I have to worry if I have a job tomorrow.

PS I like the bo moves better.

Jeremy Hulley
02-08-2011, 05:10 PM
Looks like its taken straight from Tom Read's stuff. I would love to know how it is "internal" and what you mean by it....
Thanks
Jeremy

Tenyu
02-08-2011, 05:29 PM
Hi Tenyu,

I'm commenting because I had never heard of Seido Karate until today. And it wasn't reading your post - it was checking out where a famous Japanese quote - nana korobi ya oki - fall down seven times, get up eight times - came from after a comment on my blog (the link is below if you want to see). I found a very nice and clear explanation at SeidoIndia (http://seidoindia.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=7:get-up&catid=3:about-karatedo&Itemid=5). Looking for a way to tell them that I appreciated the article I found a link to the Seido Karate (http://www.seido.com/) hombu dojo in New York. And then I saw that nobody had replied to your post and I noticed that Seido name again. Wow. Synchronicity. I saw that the dojo does work with young adults and with blind and visually impaired students and veterans as well as normal training. Very cool.

I have one technical comment. Sometimes your foot is landing a fraction before the strike and it seems to me you are losing a little power because of that. But the movements look very fluid and interesting.

How long is your bo? It looks like a jo.

I wish you the very best of luck.

And the quote was by Daruma Taishi...

Hi Niall,

Interesting you mention that quote as it was one of the lectures by Kaicho that really resonated with me. There were many times in Seido classes, especially the endurance ones, where I didn't think I could ‘get back up' when I thought I had exhausted everything already. Strengthening the mind this way was a very important lesson for me.

I didn't know it at the time but I really think there's a lot to be learned from teaching the disabled. When I was an assistant instructor for Northcoast Aikido's kids class there was one ten year old who was severely autistic, to the point where he could barely take the softest roll or fall. He appeared unresponsive because he could never look at anyone. Originally I didn't get to train with him because I was assigned to teaching stick(staffwork) to the advanced kids, but I felt really bad seeing the other kids to no fault of their own having trouble when paired with him. After a few weeks I finally got switched one-on-one with him. I walked up to him and I could sense he was fully aware of me and his environment even though he was gazing unfocused into the corner of the ceiling. I was pleasantly surprised and immediately tapped into his ‘wavelength'. I still had to go slower but I had him taking ukemi immediately with no resistance and a smile on his face, the first time he showed any emotion in class. What I thought was going to be a difficult task turned out to be extremely fun and rewarding. His mother was present then and became so happy to see his new liveliness. Many times later on I actually preferred working with him over the talented kids because it wasn't easy, if I lost mental connection with him for just one instant no matter how slow we were moving he would clam up and resist the technique either as nage or uke. I don't know yin style taichi but that's what I imagined it to feel like.

Regarding my strikes, my foot should be landing simultaneously with the activation of the strike's asymptote. The beach is on an incline and I hadn't slept in a couple days when they were recorded, so it's not the best example of proper grounding or technique.

I currently use two ‘bo's' designed for my height of 5' 10", one is 54" grade 3 hickory and the other is 57" grade 7 hickory, both 14/16" diameter. I only use Kingfisher staffs since their frequency response is the best I've experienced. I'm sure most here already know Brad's craftsmanship is master class as well.

Thanks for the well wishes, I may need it. I had no students show up to my first class.

-Tenyu

Tenyu
02-08-2011, 05:31 PM
Just a suggestion... when you list the Teachers you have trained with on a forum, it's like your references on your resume. Folks are apt to check the references... You don't generally list the boss who fired you as a reference. This is a very small community...

My recommendation is for folks to go to the source...
Tom Read Sensei and Aikibojitsu (http://www.aikibojitsu.com/)

Aikibojutsu and the Structure of Natural Law (http://www.aikibojitsu.com/Store.html) Tom Read Sensei's new book.

There is no reason to hide one's public training history. I won't be baited into debating private matters though.

I wish you the best in your training. I've read many of your posts here so I know your dedication to Aikido is sincere and exemplary.

Tenyu
02-08-2011, 05:36 PM
hey, those bo moves looked like the moves made by this beef cake here doing with the sword http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQRFuBeRAi4#t=1m27s


http://www.soul-source.co.uk/soulforum/public/style_emoticons/default/ph34r.gif

George S. Ledyard
02-08-2011, 11:29 PM
There is no reason to hide one's public training history. I won't be baited into debating private matters though.

I wish you the best in your training. I've read many of your posts here so I know your dedication to Aikido is sincere and exemplary.

Private matters are best left private... but you've put yourself forward as a teacher of a Bo style. I have trained off and on with Tom Read for 30 years. I have watched him evolve his Bo style over that time. He first showed his stick work at the Aiki Expo ten years ago at which he was the very first demonstration in the whole event,

Tom's use of the staff is unique in execution and conception. While he does have rank from Hikitsuchi Sensei in Bo, his own work is totally different from the Shingu Bo work. It is his and his alone. It is not "public domain" stick work. Anyone knowing Tom's Aikibojitsu will recognize, as Jeremy did, where you got what you are doing. You have taken something someone else developed and was kind enough to teach to you and have set yourself up as a teacher in your own right, not only without permission, but in actual opposition to the wishes of the Founder of this style. Furthermore, you received no rank or teaching certification in Aikibojitsu. So, now you have repackaged something which, in my opinion, only a creative genius like Tom Read could have developed, and given it a new name and made yourself a teacher of it.

There are a number of people who have undergone strenuous and lengthy instruction in Tom's Bo style. They have been granted rank. We have one certified teacher up here in Seattle at Two Cranes Aikido. For whatever reason Tom Read Sensei chose not to give you rank and you did not receive permission to teach what you were shown. Doing so under another name, as if you developed the style yourself is simply an end run around a systematic teacher certification process which Tom designed to ensure proper transmission of both the technique and underlying spiritual foundation which is central to practice of Aikibojitsu.

As the English would say, "bad form". Since you have now set yourself up in the public arena, I think people should know what you have done and decide for themselves. If they think what you are showing has merit, I would advise them to go to the source because I guarantee that anyone else's imitation of his lifetime's work will only be an ersatz version, lacking in the real depth of Tom's conception.

Demetrio Cereijo
02-09-2011, 03:01 AM
There is no reason to hide one's public training history. I won't be baited into debating private matters though.

You should have been put the classical story of "after engaging myself in ascetic training for ........ (preferibly a lot) of days then a tengu/kami/yamabushi appeared and taught me, then gave me the scrolls of the style". It has been working for centuries.

This is how great styles are founded.

Tenyu
02-09-2011, 07:22 AM
Private matters are best left private... but you've put yourself forward as a teacher of a Bo style. I have trained off and on with Tom Read for 30 years. I have watched him evolve his Bo style over that time. He first showed his stick work at the Aiki Expo ten years ago at which he was the very first demonstration in the whole event,

Tom's use of the staff is unique in execution and conception. While he does have rank from Hikitsuchi Sensei in Bo, his own work is totally different from the Shingu Bo work. It is his and his alone. It is not "public domain" stick work. Anyone knowing Tom's Aikibojitsu will recognize, as Jeremy did, where you got what you are doing. You have taken something someone else developed and was kind enough to teach to you and have set yourself up as a teacher in your own right, not only without permission, but in actual opposition to the wishes of the Founder of this style. Furthermore, you received no rank or teaching certification in Aikibojitsu. So, now you have repackaged something which, in my opinion, only a creative genius like Tom Read could have developed, and given it a new name and made yourself a teacher of it.

There are a number of people who have undergone strenuous and lengthy instruction in Tom's Bo style. They have been granted rank. We have one certified teacher up here in Seattle at Two Cranes Aikido. For whatever reason Tom Read Sensei chose not to give you rank and you did not receive permission to teach what you were shown. Doing so under another name, as if you developed the style yourself is simply an end run around a systematic teacher certification process which Tom designed to ensure proper transmission of both the technique and underlying spiritual foundation which is central to practice of Aikibojitsu.

As the English would say, "bad form". Since you have now set yourself up in the public arena, I think people should know what you have done and decide for themselves. If they think what you are showing has merit, I would advise them to go to the source because I guarantee that anyone else's imitation of his lifetime's work will only be an ersatz version, lacking in the real depth of Tom's conception.

There's no reason to go into detail how Aikibodo fundamentally differs from Aikibojitsu on this forum. First no one here including you practices either art and wouldn't understand the descriptions, second making comparisons can only be viewed as judgements against. If there's one thing I learned from my first time on Aikiweb is that it's really bad form to critique anyone, especially a stranger let alone one's former teacher regardless of history, who's not directly asking for advice.

I will say what Aikibojitsu and Aikibodo do have in common is the use of the asymptotic strike. But this is not at all unique to either art. It is in fact quite common in others, most obviously in bo katas of traditional Karate and generally so in certain Chinese arts of Xingyi and Taiji. There are thousands of videos where one can see this either open hand or with weapon. Most importantly I've seen O Sensei use them definitively and phenomenally with the bokken. I can't recall precisely if he did it on film with the staff but I've seen it many times in the Iwama line. It's visible in much of Morihiro Saito's yokomens, and going by the National Geographic clip I would argue Hitohiro Saito has improved on them from his father with the staff.

I have atoned for my mistakes and despite your demand for private information it's frankly none of your business. There's still some freedom in this country and nobody owns Aikido or staffwork. I have no problem sharing what I did with any of my future students, as it was one I made of passion(getting upset at someone for one minute, barely raising my voice) out of the love I had for Tom Read, my former students, and the dojo. I considered them family, including the parents of my former students. Everyone I've told what I did has agreed it's not beyond what any morally conscionable person could make in the context. Mistake yes, crucification far from. This is not why I left the dojo nor do I intend on sharing the compendium of events that happened. I'm keeping that information private not for my protection but in order to exercise compassion, the essence of Aikido, for something this painful. Obviously I know Tom can and does teach well, but a line was crossed between him and me, nobody else. Leaving the dojo was the hardest thing I've ever done in my life, but it was the right decision. There was no pride in it. I've been on my own for over a year, and it's time for everyone to move on.

Aikibodo is a culmination of my whole life and I've helped out a lot of people along the way. Your misinformed ad homs are not welcome, nor are any second-hand ‘rebuttals' you may desire to attempt.

Finally, I've been to enough seminars in other dojos and seen things morally grotesque occur right out in plain view, by very high ranking people. Never a word on Aikiweb. Couple years ago Ellis Amdur was kind enough to let me in on a few astonishing ‘community secrets' as well. There're many glass houses and I suggest you understand that before beginning another crusade.

-Tenyu

Cliff Judge
02-09-2011, 08:54 AM
After over a year of independent study by myself I've decided to share the development of a new style of Aikido which I'm calling Aikibodo.


I trained in Seido Juku Karate under Kaicho Tadashi Nakamura at honbu dojo in NYC for three years.


Afterwards I trained in Aikido for two and a half years at Tom Read Sensei's dojo in Arcata CA under a handful of dedicated, inspiring teachers.


For those concerned with rank, I'm officially a 4th kyu in Karate and Aikido.

You've been training for six years and you are founding a martial art?

Janet Rosen
02-09-2011, 10:37 AM
You've been training for six years and you are founding a martial art?
:D

kewms
02-09-2011, 10:54 AM
You've been training for six years and you are founding a martial art?

Yeah, this.

I would imagine that both Nakamura Sensei and Read Sensei have a great deal more to teach than even a dedicated student could learn in three years.

Katherine

phitruong
02-09-2011, 11:25 AM
You've been training for six years and you are founding a martial art?

it's not hard to find a martial art. if you looked back into history of mankind, this sort of thing happened all the times. eons ago, the grand master of OWW-do walked by a rock cliff where a rock dislodged and strike his head. he was knocked out cold. as he woke up, he came to realization of a martial arts based on placing rocks at dangerous locations. however, as he contemplated the various rock waza, he was promptly ate by the nearby saber tooth tiger. also, at the approximate same time line, grand master of ARRGGHHH-do, walked grandiosely and was knocked out flat by a low hanging tree branch. as he woke up, he came up with a martial art based on placing sticks at low level in order to knock the other buggers off their feet. however, he was promptly ate by the nearby saber tooth (actually the very same saber tooth that ate the rock grand master). then sometimes later, lots later, an young up coming grand master came up with a new martial art which he called RUN-FASTER-THAN-YOUR-BUDDY-do. he discussed with his tribe. later that evening, his buddies waited for him to fall asleep, proceeded to tie him up and left him outside which promptly ate by the saber tooth (damn bugger kept waiting around for various grand masters).

so as you can see, various martial arts have been found quite accidentally and relatively quickly. however, the saber tooth clan has also been quick to breakfast, lunch and dinner.
:D

Demetrio Cereijo
02-09-2011, 12:19 PM
You've been training for six years and you are founding a martial art?

This was what people said to Kano back in the day, isn't it?

Anyway, I don't like what I've seen in Tenyu's clips but, as an Iwamaer, I'm probably biased.

Tenyu, have you checked the viability of your Aikibodo in a martial environment, like a Dog Bros. gathering (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTKqYkvmdkU) or similar? If so, how it went?

John Thomas Read
02-09-2011, 02:47 PM
Hello,

My name is Tom Read (John Thomas Read.) I've been studying Aikido since 1969, trained in Shingu (1974-75) have been dojo-cho and Chief Instructor at Northcoast Aikido in Arcata, CA since 1977, and have been working to create a unique staff art form since 1985 that I call Aikibojitsu. Aikibojitsu is defined and explained in depth in the book Aikido Aikibojitsu and the Structure of Natural Law which I published in December, 2010.

The reason that I am writing is that, although I tried to stay out of it, I feel I need to address the actions of Tenyu Hamaki, a one-time student of mine who is making a number of false claims.

Tenyu Hamaki was allowed into the Aikibojitsu Instructor's program about 2 years ago even though he was a 'beginner', due to a personal request by his brother. Due to that personal request I allowed Tenyu into the program and worked with him personally for over a year. As a result Tenyu's staff work is really not bad. But contrary to what he is saying here, over 99 percent of what he does is straight Aikibojitsu.

Aikibojitsu is a very distinct style of staff work, its physical techniques the natural expression of a comprehensive theoretical foundation revolving around non-resistant power (given in the book.) Those who have trained with me over the years know how distinct it is, and will easily recognize it in Tenyu's 'Aikibodo.' His 'new' style is not at all new, nor is it his.

In addition to the distinct and unique nature of Aikibojitsu's physical techniques, his use of terms like 'asymptote', or 'exponential' show that he is just copying my conceptual work. For example, I use the hyperbolic spiral's dual asymptotic form to explain how to generate and control high energies in Aikibojitsu staff strikes. Asymptotes are something central to Aikibojitsu's theoretical foundation. Tenyu's casual use of the term 'asymptote' at strike termination (elsewhere in this thread) shows the degree to which he has become confused about just where his knowledge actually came from.

Tenyu is angry at me, calling our differences 'personal.' In actuality he is angry because I expelled him from Northcoast Aikido after his behavior became so egregious that I couldn't allow him to participate in the school. He had alienated all of the teachers (in spite of what he claims elsewhere in this thread) to the point where all were asking me to deal with him. The precipitating event leading to his expulsion was Tenyu deciding to berate a parent in front of their child while acting as assistant kids' class instructor.

During the expulsion process (one of 3 that I've had to do in the entire 34 year history of Northcoast Aikido), I told Tenyu that he was not to try to pass himself off as an Aikibojitsu teacher, something that he'd already been working toward behind the scenes even before being asked to leave (some of my students have collected examples of this off the web.)

In order to try to get around this, Tenyu made two main changes. He changed the name 'Aikibojitsu' to 'Aikibodo', and changed the 'tag line' from Aikibojitsu's 'The Art of the Staff', to 'The Way of the Staff.'

One way I name Katas is to call them something concrete. For example, there has been a unique and very difficult Kata in Aikibojitsu since 1991 called The Granite Kata. The first notice I had of Tenyu's actions with regard to 'his creation of a new staff art form' came when a student of mine said that Tenyu had posted his new art form on YouTube, with his 'Granite Kata' video! (he has since renamed his kata 'The Umi Kata', but we have screen shots of 'The Granite Kata' label.)

Tenyu was allowed into the Instructor development program in Aikibojitsu with open arms, and was freely taught based upon a very clear agreement that he not teach Aikibojitsu without permission (without an Instructor's Certificate.) He has broken that agreement, and I am writing to ensure that people know what he is really doing.

My book is focused around an in-depth explanation of the nature of energy in non-resistant systems in general, and in the martial interaction in particular, both theoretically and practically (technically.) The book takes a detailed look at Aikido technique based upon unique and important conceptual insights, and also provides a sound theoretical foundation for Aikibojitsu as an art form. The book is aimed at more advanced practitioners, but the material is important to anyone who is serious about martial arts.

For more information about my work, go to www.aikibojitsu.com (http://www.aikibojitsu.com)

You may contact me via email at aikibojitsu@gmail.com. There is also a list of certified Aikibojitsu Instructors at the site with email contact information whom you may contact to verify what I have said regarding Aikibojitsu.

(For those who are curious about the book, visit the excerpts page www.aikibojitsu.com/BookExcerpts (http://www.aikibojitsu.com/BookExcerpts).)

dps
02-09-2011, 03:21 PM
You have taken something someone else developed and was kind enough to teach to you and have set yourself up as a teacher in your own right, not only without permission, but in actual opposition to the wishes of the Founder of this style.

Hmmm, sounds like a familiar story, once upon a time in Japan.

I would advise them to go to the source because I guarantee that anyone else's imitation ( O'sensei's ) of his lifetime's work will only be an ersatz version, lacking in the real depth of Tom's ( Takeda's ) conception.

(Parenthesis is mine).

dps

Alfonso
02-09-2011, 03:22 PM
so did you spot the Aikido trained guy in the clip?

kewms
02-09-2011, 04:11 PM
Hmmm, sounds like a familiar story, once upon a time in Japan.

Sure. But I'll bet there are more charlatans than martial geniuses among the founders of new styles.

Heck, I'll bet plenty of people thought both Ueshiba and Kano were charlatans until they proved their stuff worked.

Katherine

dps
02-09-2011, 05:12 PM
Heck, I'll bet plenty of people thought both Ueshiba and Kano were charlatans until they proved their stuff worked.

Katherine

So if Tenyu's stuff works that will validate his new Aikido style?

David

George S. Ledyard
02-09-2011, 05:15 PM
I would advise them to go to the source because I guarantee that anyone else's imitation ( O'sensei's ) of his lifetime's work will only be an ersatz version, lacking in the real depth of Tom's ( Takeda's ) conception.

(Parenthesis is mine).

dps

Hi David,
I would point out that someone with a teaching license and some different ideas about how to proceed into the future going off on his own is substantively different than someone who doesn't even have yudansha rank "founding" his own style.

Also, if you mean to suggest that Aikido is just watered down Daito Ryu, I would beg to differ. Although the post war growth in Aikido has lead to some important gaps in the transmission Aikido is very different than Daito Ryu. O-Sensei's creation added a whole new dimension to what he had learned in Daito Ryu. If that were not the case, we'd all be better off going back to Daito Ryu. While I actually practice one style of Daito Ryu, it is totally distinct in conception and practice from Aikido. They compliment each other but I would strenuously disagree that one is "better" than the other. But they are truly different.

kewms
02-09-2011, 06:09 PM
So if Tenyu's stuff works that will validate his new Aikido style?

David

Actually, if the stuff he is teaching works, it will show that Read Sensei is a good teacher.

I was making the more general point that anyone with any amount of experience can open a dojo and declare themselves the "master" of a "new" style.

A few of those people may even be once-a-generation martial geniuses. But the safer bet is that most of them are charlatans until proven otherwise. And I would say that the chance of charlatan-hood is inversely proportional to the amount of experience: how many people do *you* know who could master a single style in six years, much less invent a new one?

Katherine

Mark Gibbons
02-09-2011, 07:15 PM
There's no reason to go into detail how Aikibodo fundamentally differs from Aikibojitsu on this forum. First no one here including you practices either art and wouldn't understand the descriptions, second making comparisons can only be viewed as judgements against. ...

-Tenyu

Several of us know Aikibojitsu instructors and have classes available to us.

Mark

dps
02-09-2011, 09:50 PM
Actually, if the stuff he is teaching works, it will show that Read Sensei is a good teacher.

I was making the more general point that anyone with any amount of experience can open a dojo and declare themselves the "master" of a "new" style.

A few of those people may even be once-a-generation martial geniuses. But the safer bet is that most of them are charlatans until proven otherwise. And I would say that the chance of charlatan-hood is inversely proportional to the amount of experience: how many people do *you* know who could master a single style in six years, much less invent a new one?

Katherine

In 1953 Bruce Lee started his Wing Chun training with Yip Man. In 1959 he left Hong Kong for the United States. Prior to leaving Hong Kong he learned some Tai Chi from his father and boxing and fencing from other relatives. He never completed his training with Yip Man.
Soon after arriving in the U.S. he startied teaching his own style of Wing Chun.

dps

dps
02-09-2011, 10:15 PM
Hello George,

Hi David,
I would point out that someone with a teaching license and some different ideas about how to proceed into the future going off on his own is substantively different than someone who doesn't even have yudansha rank "founding" his own style.

You mean like Bruce Lee?

Also, if you mean to suggest that Aikido is just watered down Daito Ryu, I would beg to differ. Although the post war growth in Aikido has lead to some important gaps in the transmission Aikido is very different than Daito Ryu. O-Sensei's creation added a whole new dimension to what he had learned in Daito Ryu. If that were not the case, we'd all be better off going back to Daito Ryu. While I actually practice one style of Daito Ryu, it is totally distinct in conception and practice from Aikido. They compliment each other but I would strenuously disagree that one is "better" than the other. But they are truly different.

Nope did not say that at all.

In the beginning O'Sensei took what he learned form Takeda, changed its name and taught essentially the same techniques.

I think it is hypocritically of any of us in Aikido to complain about some one taking what they learn and starting their own style under a different name.

He was honest about training with Read Sensei.. If he had try to hide it you would be jumping all over him about his dishonesty.

dps

graham christian
02-10-2011, 12:05 AM
Hi. May I say this on reading this thread. If a man, whoever he is makes an agreement not to teach what he has learned until given the right to do so by the teacher then obviously he shouldn't do so.
Secondly, if a teacher insists that all students who become teachers in the future of this same art must call it the same name and all the principles and techniques the same name then I see he would look at it as maintaining the integrity of his art and his responsibility.
So far so good.
However, the teacher or founder doing so is making a potential rod for his own back through his own fear of the integrity of the art being lost. Let me explain why.
If the original teacher has written everything down and published it and built up a reputation then it is that alone which will show the truth of his art so the agreement is not needed. Others will recognise it when another sets himself up teaching those same principles so there's nothing wrong with that is there? Others are not stupid and I think when someone thinks they own a way then they have made a miscalculation.
The person setting up a new way based on those principles should publicly honour the source which in this case has been done.
O'Senseis Aikido led to many, in fact almost all of his TOP students going off to various locations even around the world and forming their own strands of Aikido and yet all pay hommage to the founder. It's natural progression without fear as in all martial arts in the history of martial arts.
Personally I believe O'Sensei wanted and expected it to be so but I stress this is a personal belief. I myself insist on it.
I tell all my students that when they feel confident enough to teach on their own then I will fully support them but I insist that they must find their own style of teaching and name their version accordingly. Find your own path and find your own way that is my motto and go with my blessings. I can only help another on the way, it is not for me to control at all.
Call this a different way of going about things if you like but I see it as more organic and natural.
All that said and done I wish Tenryu Sensei the best and also Reid Sensei the best and hope for a good outcome for their personal situation.
Regards.G.

kewms
02-10-2011, 12:32 AM
In 1953 Bruce Lee started his Wing Chun training with Yip Man. In 1959 he left Hong Kong for the United States. Prior to leaving Hong Kong he learned some Tai Chi from his father and boxing and fencing from other relatives. He never completed his training with Yip Man.
Soon after arriving in the U.S. he startied teaching his own style of Wing Chun.

Right. And my point is that the Bruce Lee/Kano/Ueshiba type is rare, and the snake oil salesman type is extremely common.

Katherine

dps
02-10-2011, 01:03 AM
Right. And my point is that the Bruce Lee/Kano/Ueshiba type is rare, and the snake oil salesman type is extremely common.

Katherine

The Lee/Kano/Ueshiba type is not all that rare. Both Lee and O'Sensei came from wealthy families and use their parents connections to help them out. In the case of Bruce Lee it was his connections with his Hollywood students that made him famous and with O'Sensei it was his political connections that made him famous. Both of them were familiar with snake oil salesmanship.

Kano I do not know.

Tenyu acknowledges Read Sensei respectfully in the development of his martial style just as Read acknowledges his teacher.

From, http://www.aikibojitsu.com/Origins.html

"Yasushi Tojima was a senior teacher at the Kumano Juku Dojo, known for his unpredictable nature,
ready sense of humor, and explosive intensity. Tojima sensei was central to the creation and
development of Aikibojitsu spending time and energy as mentor to Tom Read Sensei, Aikibojitsu's
founder."

"Read Sensei continues to study both Aikido and Aikibojitsu and freely teaches their principles and techniques to everyone who is interested."



dps

Demetrio Cereijo
02-10-2011, 03:32 AM
Actually, if the stuff he is teaching works, it will show that Read Sensei is a good teacher.
And Read Sensei has just posted:

"... I allowed Tenyu into the program and worked with him personally for over a year. As a result Tenyu's staff work is really not bad. But contrary to what he is saying here, over 99 percent of what he does is straight Aikibojitsu"

So, technically speaking, Tenyu's aikibodo is not some made up chanbara - nonsensical xtreme martial arts staff twirling.

I was making the more general point that anyone with any amount of experience can open a dojo and declare themselves the "master" of a "new" style.
And this has been done in many occasions. Some new styles worked and some not. If Tenyu's modified version of Read Sensei's Aikibojutsu works, then it works.

Now, on Tenyu's alleged character flaws/eccentricities/screw-looseness... well, geniouses have these things too.

lbb
02-10-2011, 08:27 AM
So if Tenyu's stuff works that will validate his new Aikido style?


If it's lifted whole-cloth from someone else's work, then all it validates is someone else's old(er) style.

George S. Ledyard
02-10-2011, 11:17 AM
This is precisely the same issue one finds with unauthorized teachers of Koryu. The Koryu folks are VERY strict about lineage and transmission. To the point at which you sign a blood oath when accepted to the ryu.

There are people out there teaching without permission despite their initial commitment not to do so. This has NOTHING to do with whether they have ability, it has to do with their initial promise not to teach without permission.

In the old days, this would have simply been taken care of. Someone from the ryu would have it out with the unauthorized pretender. In some styles this still occurs, albeit on a more civilized level. I have friends who are direct students of Dan Inosanto in Jeet Kun Do. All authorized instructors are listed on their website. Despite this, folks still open up schools and say they are teaching Jeet Kun Do. My friend, Chris Clark will go with his senior student, Rich Peterson, and they visit the school and take class. Invariably, the teacher ends up taking down the Jeet Kun Do sign because he NEVER wants his students to see what the real thing looks like when compared to himself.

This is not an issue of technical ability. It is an issue of ethical behavior. I have students who also do classical sword. Despite the fact that they are my students, they are under obligation not to even talk about their training in the ryu. And they don't. They don't talk about it, they don't show me a thing. They promised not to do so when they signed up. They take that promise seriously.

This is Budo. One of the primary elements in Budo is personal honor. You make a promise not to teach without permission and you keep it. Even if it is no longer convenient for you. That was one of the terms of being accepted as a student. That promise doesn't go away if you leave the dojo of your own free will. It doesn't go away if you are thrown out of the dojo. It doesn't go away unless the person you made the promise to releases you from that promise.

Of course, the training you received doesn't simply disappear. If you keep training, perhaps, after many years, what you are doing does morph into something completely yours. At that point it might make sense to give it a new name and be the Founder of some new art. But i this case we are talking about a 4th Kyu. He has not devoted years and years to his own development of this style after leaving his Teacher. He simply gave it a new name and went down the street and started trying to teach. This is in direct violation of his promise not to do so. It is unethical and dishonorable. It's no different than taking someone else's intellectual property as ones own.

In all the cases of folks violating their promises by teaching, there are always people who do not think there is anything worn with it. There are folks who think anything one can download should be free. That any DVD can be copied and freely distributed. No one should be told they can't do whatever they want to do. After all, it's a free country and who is anyone to tell anyone else what to do?

But as far as I am concerned, this stuff matters. You promised you wouldn't so you don't. This is the overriding issue, integrity. Then you can get to the issue of 4th kyus "founding" their own styles. Next thing you see is membership in the World Sokeship Council with a bunch of fake sokes certifying other fake sokes, and blah, blah, blah.

MM
02-10-2011, 11:29 AM
This is precisely the same issue one finds with unauthorized teachers of Koryu. The Koryu folks are VERY strict about lineage and transmission. To the point at which you sign a blood oath when accepted to the ryu.

There are people out there teaching without permission despite their initial commitment not to do so. This has NOTHING to do with whether they have ability, it has to do with their initial promise not to teach without permission.

In the old days, this would have simply been taken care of. Someone from the ryu would have it out with the unauthorized pretender. In some styles this still occurs, albeit on a more civilized level. I have friends who are direct students of Dan Inosanto in Jeet Kun Do. All authorized instructors are listed on their website. Despite this, folks still open up schools and say they are teaching Jeet Kun Do. My friend, Chris Clark will go with his senior student, Rich Peterson, and they visit the school and take class. Invariably, the teacher ends up taking down the Jeet Kun Do sign because he NEVER wants his students to see what the real thing looks like when compared to himself.

This is not an issue of technical ability. It is an issue of ethical behavior. I have students who also do classical sword. Despite the fact that they are my students, they are under obligation not to even talk about their training in the ryu. And they don't. They don't talk about it, they don't show me a thing. They promised not to do so when they signed up. They take that promise seriously.

This is Budo. One of the primary elements in Budo is personal honor. You make a promise not to teach without permission and you keep it. Even if it is no longer convenient for you. That was one of the terms of being accepted as a student. That promise doesn't go away if you leave the dojo of your own free will. It doesn't go away if you are thrown out of the dojo. It doesn't go away unless the person you made the promise to releases you from that promise.

Of course, the training you received doesn't simply disappear. If you keep training, perhaps, after many years, what you are doing does morph into something completely yours. At that point it might make sense to give it a new name and be the Founder of some new art. But i this case we are talking about a 4th Kyu. He has not devoted years and years to his own development of this style after leaving his Teacher. He simply gave it a new name and went down the street and started trying to teach. This is in direct violation of his promise not to do so. It is unethical and dishonorable. It's no different than taking someone else's intellectual property as ones own.

In all the cases of folks violating their promises by teaching, there are always people who do not think there is anything worn with it. There are folks who think anything one can download should be free. That any DVD can be copied and freely distributed. No one should be told they can't do whatever they want to do. After all, it's a free country and who is anyone to tell anyone else what to do?

But as far as I am concerned, this stuff matters. You promised you wouldn't so you don't. This is the overriding issue, integrity. Then you can get to the issue of 4th kyus "founding" their own styles. Next thing you see is membership in the World Sokeship Council with a bunch of fake sokes certifying other fake sokes, and blah, blah, blah.

Frankly, well worth reposting.

lbb
02-10-2011, 11:53 AM
The title of the thread also made me wonder: has "internal" become the "user friendly" or "cutting edge" or "breakthrough" or "world class" of the martial arts world: an obligatory but meaningless advertising buzzword?

thisisnotreal
02-10-2011, 11:56 AM
The title of the thread also made me wonder: has "internal" become the "user friendly" or "cutting edge" or "breakthrough" or "world class" of the martial arts world: an obligatory but meaningless advertising buzzword?

yes. someone has said M.A.B.S. would become iMABS.they were right. I partially blame Apple©

Demetrio Cereijo
02-10-2011, 11:58 AM
George, it is not so simple.

The keppan/kishomon in classical japanese arts is not easily translated to western derivatives of gendai budo. Different times, people, culture and purpose.

Romanticism about honourable, ethical and loyal samurai of old and the arts they practised is fine, but it is romanticism nonetheless.

kewms
02-10-2011, 12:06 PM
George, it is not so simple.

The keppan/kishomon in classical japanese arts is not easily translated to western derivatives of gendai budo. Different times, people, culture and purpose.

Romanticism about honourable, ethical and loyal samurai of old and the arts they practised is fine, but it is romanticism nonetheless.

Honoring one's word doesn't seem like a romantic anachronism to me. It's more like a foundation stone of civilized society.

Katherine

C. David Henderson
02-10-2011, 12:07 PM
Seemed to me there was a lot of shoulder-driven movement in the You-Tube clip linked in the OP. I didn't see that when I looked at the clip posted on Read Sensei's site.

Not that I'm an expert, but the differences in fluidity, structure and power seemed pretty clear.

Putting aside for an instant the interesting discussion about ethics and how we got here, Mr. Hamaki seems like a strong, athletic young man who has worked for a time at learning a difficult set of movement skills.

When I compare the movement in the two clips, I come away with the impression that Mr. Hamaki can approximately reproduce the movements he was shown. However, in the clip his execution seemed rushed and overly reliant on upper body strength compared to the other clip.

I don't get the "internal" part at all. Maybe I missed it.

2 cents at most.

George S. Ledyard
02-10-2011, 12:23 PM
George, it is not so simple.

The keppan/kishomon in classical japanese arts is not easily translated to western derivatives of gendai budo. Different times, people, culture and purpose.

Romanticism about honourable, ethical and loyal samurai of old and the arts they practised is fine, but it is romanticism nonetheless.

Well, Demetrio, for some of us it is more than "romanticism". That's just like the way people use "idealistic" to dismiss other's moral objections when they want to do something they shouldn't be doing. Anything can be justified that way simply based on what is expedient.

I think in a similar situation, I'd go take class with the fellow. That would be a fairly concrete and non-romantic expression of my feelings on the issue.

dps
02-10-2011, 12:56 PM
YThis is precisely the same issue one finds with unauthorized teachers of Koryu. The Koryu folks are VERY strict about lineage and transmission. To the point at which you sign a blood oath when accepted to the ryu.

There are people out there teaching without permission despite their initial commitment not to do so. This has NOTHING to do with whether they have ability, it has to do with their initial promise not to teach without permission.

In the old days, this would have simply been taken care of. Someone from the ryu would have it out with the unauthorized pretender. In some styles this still occurs, albeit on a more civilized level. I have friends who are direct students of Dan Inosanto in Jeet Kun Do. All authorized instructors are listed on their website. Despite this, folks still open up schools and say they are teaching Jeet Kun Do. My friend, Chris Clark will go with his senior student, Rich Peterson, and they visit the school and take class. Invariably, the teacher ends up taking down the Jeet Kun Do sign because he NEVER wants his students to see what the real thing looks like when compared to himself.

This is not an issue of technical ability. It is an issue of ethical behavior. I have students who also do classical sword. Despite the fact that they are my students, they are under obligation not to even talk about their training in the ryu. And they don't. They don't talk about it, they don't show me a thing. They promised not to do so when they signed up. They take that promise seriously.

This is Budo. One of the primary elements in Budo is personal honor. You make a promise not to teach without permission and you keep it. Even if it is no longer convenient for you. That was one of the terms of being accepted as a student. That promise doesn't go away if you leave the dojo of your own free will. It doesn't go away if you are thrown out of the dojo. It doesn't go away unless the person you made the promise to releases you from that promise.

Of course, the training you received doesn't simply disappear. If you keep training, perhaps, after many years, what you are doing does morph into something completely yours. At that point it might make sense to give it a new name and be the Founder of some new art. But i this case we are talking about a 4th Kyu. He has not devoted years and years to his own development of this style after leaving his Teacher. He simply gave it a new name and went down the street and started trying to teach. This is in direct violation of his promise not to do so. It is unethical and dishonorable. It's no different than taking someone else's intellectual property as ones own.

In all the cases of folks violating their promises by teaching, there are always people who do not think there is anything worn with it. There are folks who think anything one can download should be free. That any DVD can be copied and freely distributed. No one should be told they can't do whatever they want to do. After all, it's a free country and who is anyone to tell anyone else what to do?

But as far as I am concerned, this stuff matters. You promised you wouldn't so you don't. This is the overriding issue, integrity. Then you can get to the issue of 4th kyus "founding" their own styles. Next thing you see is membership in the World Sokeship Council with a bunch of fake sokes certifying other fake sokes, and blah, blah, blah.

Hello George, did you ever promise anyone a commitment you did not keep?

This is not the old days and we are not talking. about a koryu. You consistently fill your posts with irrelevant blah blah blah.

If Tenyu signed an agreement not to teach his senei's art then his sensei should sue his ass.
If his sensei doesn't then the matter should be dropped.

Tenyu has cut himself off from his source material and in time his art will significantlly differ from that source if it survives.

Did O'Sensei agree not to branch off and teach Takeda's art under a different name?

dps

George S. Ledyard
02-10-2011, 01:24 PM
Y

Hello George, did you ever promise anyone a commitment you did not keep?


Yes, I have, of course. I still feel badly about having done so and I paid a very heavy price for it. This is not a light or unimportant thing. In a society in which we are virtually constantly lied to, we can start to feel like none of it matters. But when you act with no integrity, in the end, you are damaging yourself. The are Karmic consequences to be paid. Treating these things as being of no account won't change that.

Cliff Judge
02-10-2011, 01:29 PM
Hello George, did you ever promise anyone a commitment you did not keep?

That's a particularly cheap argument tactic there.

akiy
02-10-2011, 01:33 PM
Hi folks,

Please be mindful of the tone of your posts. Thank you.

-- Jun

Demetrio Cereijo
02-10-2011, 01:57 PM
Honoring one's word doesn't seem like a romantic anachronism to me. It's more like a foundation stone of civilized society.

Katherine

Sure but, is this the case? Did Tenyu gave his word? Did he signed a keppan? To what extent Tokugawa Era rules about commercial rights*, -and their enforcement- are applicable to Read Sensei's Aikibojutsu?

Well, Demetrio, for some of us it is more than "romanticism". That's just like the way people use "idealistic" to dismiss other's moral objections when they want to do something they shouldn't be doing. Anything can be justified that way simply based on what is expedient
But, on the other hand, anything can be asked based in imaginary standards of behaviour.

What Tenyu did is closer to what a real warrior of old Japan would have done. IMO.

*and let's not forget when, how and why the iemoto/soke system has been adopted in japanese budo.

Garth Jones
02-10-2011, 02:06 PM
Y

If Tenyu signed an agreement not to teach his senei's art then his sensei should sue his ass.
If his sensei doesn't then the matter should be dropped.

dps

So there are no ethics involved here beyond what might have been agreed to in a legal contract? Well, I don't agree with that - I rather like George Sensei's opinion - but okay, let's think about that.

If I was a programmer who worked for, say, Google, for 2-3 years, then left to start my own search engine website using 99% similar code I named 'Oogled' I should not be surprised when the Google legal department fell on me like a ton of bricks, no matter what was signed or not. In that case Google would have a reason to spend a chunk of money to stop me, even if they had no hope of recovering damages. Also, they have very deep pockets so the legal costs wouldn't really matter to them.

In this instance Read Sensei would likely spend thousands (or more) on the suit since no lawyer would take this on unless the defendant has a pile of money to go after. And even if he won the defendant could just change the name again (aikibo-ryu, anyone?) and the cycle would start again.

In this case I think that the 'old style' of intellectual property protection would be much more effective - I like the Jeet Kun Do teachers' solution.

Personally I have done quite a bit of business on a handshake. It demands trust on both sides - it is a different type of obligation than that of student/teacher, but just as strong.

Gary David
02-10-2011, 02:35 PM
Keeping one's word may seem a dated concept, but if my word is not my bond then what is? I understand that I have failed to keep my word that times and I have tried hard to understand which of the me's broke his word. Was it friend to friend, father to daughter, husband to wife, neighbor to neighbor, student to teacher, drunk to drunk....which? A promise made while drunk may not be kept when sober.......the me making the promise may not be the me in charge when the promise comes due.... The effort should be to only give your word when you can keep it, understanding which me is making the promise and which may be called on to keep it.........but just because you don't or can't on occasion keep your word should you then toss the whole idea that "your word is your bond.."

kewms
02-10-2011, 02:37 PM
Sure but, is this the case? Did Tenyu gave his word? Did he signed a keppan? To what extent Tokugawa Era rules about commercial rights*, -and their enforcement- are applicable to Read Sensei's Aikibojutsu?


Read Sensei says that Tenyu agreed not to teach without permission, both before being taught the material, and while separating from the dojo.

Tenyu does not appear to dispute that, but simply claims to be teaching a new style. Objective observers do not see anything particularly new, however.

I don't think you need to go back to feudal Japan to decide how to handle the situation. Modern Western ethics work just fine.

Katherine

lbb
02-10-2011, 03:13 PM
If Tenyu signed an agreement not to teach his senei's art then his sensei should sue his ass.
If his sensei doesn't then the matter should be dropped.

That argument only makes sense in a world where only legal contracts matter, and only courts can be used to resolve disagreements. People make agreements every day that aren't legally binding. They are based instead on trust and integrity. When one of these agreements is breached, "su[ing] his ass" is not an option. That doesn't mean, however, that the matter should be dropped.

Demetrio Cereijo
02-10-2011, 03:15 PM
Read Sensei says that Tenyu agreed not to teach without permission, both before being taught the material, and while separating from the dojo.
Tenyu agreed to not to teach Aikibojutsu

Tenyu does not appear to dispute that, but simply claims to be teaching a new style. Objective observers do not see anything particularly new, however.

I don't see any objective observers here.

I don't think you need to go back to feudal Japan to decide how to handle the situation. Modern Western ethics work just fine.


It wasn't me the one who brought the feudal Japan arts comparison. In fact I dispute the appropiateness of the comparison. Were we in feudal Japan probably we would be saying "this is how it works" -of course if Tenyu staff method delivers- As I said before, he should have pointed to a tengu/kami/yamabushi as the source of his Aikibodo and stand his ground: challengers are welcome.

If you want western ethics applied, that's fine. Both systems (feudal japanese & modern western) applied at the same time is an ethical mess.

lbb
02-10-2011, 03:18 PM
Tenyu agreed to not to teach Aikibojutsu

Oh, come now, Demetrio. Isn't this just a wee bit disingenuous? If I publish a novel called "The Vinci Code", and the contents are99% identical with the contents of "The Da Vinci Code", is that legitimate as far as you're concerned?

Demetrio Cereijo
02-10-2011, 03:28 PM
Oh, come now, Demetrio. Isn't this just a wee bit disingenuous? If I publish a novel called "The Vinci Code", and the contents are99% identical with the contents of "The Da Vinci Code", is that legitimate as far as you're concerned?
As a westerner I'd say it could be (a) a case of plagiarism or (b) a case of intertextuality.

Erick Mead
02-10-2011, 05:01 PM
As a westerner I'd say it could be ... a case of intertextuality.Sorry, man, that's not my thing -- not that there's anything wrong with that ... ;)

Tenyu
02-10-2011, 06:03 PM
Oh, come now, Demetrio. Isn't this just a wee bit disingenuous? If I publish a novel called "The Vinci Code", and the contents are99% identical with the contents of "The Da Vinci Code", is that legitimate as far as you're concerned?

I never published a book, the only thing I ever did was post on Aikiweb using a few scientific words that Tom used in class lectures and in his book. There's video recording of an old Aikibojitsu class where I am teaching both Tom and Robert the Tengu Short Form, not to mention other forms. The Umi Kata formerly known as the Granite Kata were all forms I either created myself or were ‘stolen' from O Sensei. The only form Tom created was the very first move the Precessional Yokomen. Tom has a different Granite Short Form that I don't practice anymore.

I never signed a contract of any sort. I was born and raised in Japan, loyalty is ingrained in my blood. I never thought I would have to leave in order to maintain my integrity.

There are many negative comments in this thread completely and naturally ignorant of the history, but this is a public forum and that's to be expected. I appreciate the supportive comments made by others and Jun's call for discretion.

After all this, I still care about you Tom. You have a lot more than I do right now - a successful school with a great crew of teachers and students. I really want the best for you even if you don't wish the same for me.

-Tenyu

Tenyu
02-10-2011, 06:16 PM
Anyone interested in learning staffwork should know that 90% of my practice was done alone from the very first week of class over three years ago. I mention this because I believe this should be the norm for anyone who seriously becomes interested in learning. It’s based on independent study unlike the average Aikido methods of transmission where an instructor is always present.

Toby Threadgill
02-10-2011, 06:31 PM
This is Budo. One of the primary elements in Budo is personal honor. You make a promise not to teach without permission and you keep it. Even if it is no longer convenient for you. That was one of the terms of being accepted as a student. That promise doesn't go away if you leave the dojo of your own free will. It doesn't go away if you are thrown out of the dojo. It doesn't go away unless the person you made the promise to releases you from that promise.

Of course, the training you received doesn't simply disappear. If you keep training, perhaps, after many years, what you are doing does morph into something completely yours. At that point it might make sense to give it a new name and be the Founder of some new art. But i this case we are talking about a 4th Kyu. He has not devoted years and years to his own development of this style after leaving his Teacher. He simply gave it a new name and went down the street and started trying to teach. This is in direct violation of his promise not to do so. It is unethical and dishonorable. It's no different than taking someone else's intellectual property as ones own.

In all the cases of folks violating their promises by teaching, there are always people who do not think there is anything worn with it. There are folks who think anything one can download should be free. That any DVD can be copied and freely distributed. No one should be told they can't do whatever they want to do. After all, it's a free country and who is anyone to tell anyone else what to do?

But as far as I am concerned, this stuff matters. You promised you wouldn't so you don't. This is the overriding issue, integrity. Then you can get to the issue of 4th kyus "founding" their own styles. Next thing you see is membership in the World Sokeship Council with a bunch of fake sokes certifying other fake sokes, and blah, blah, blah.

Hello,

I have to go with George here, but then again I am one of those koryu guys who take little ol' unimportant things like personal integrity seriously. ( How old fashioned and romantic of me! )

Mr Tenyu....Could you please enlighten us with your age and rank under Tom before you left his dojo?


Toby Threadgill / TSYR

Tenyu
02-10-2011, 06:39 PM
I didn't mention this explicitly above, but my reason for leaving does not at all imply that I don't think others can learn with full integrity of their own under Tom. Quite the opposite, I actually encourage it! I really believe in the power of Aikido, and with 7 billion people on earth even a thousand teachers of Staff aren't enough let alone the handful that exist using infinite-bound strikes within the Aikido community.

Tenyu
02-10-2011, 06:48 PM
Hello,

I have to go with George here, but then again I am one of those koryu guys who take little ol' unimportant things like personal integrity seriously. ( How old fashioned and romantic of me! )

Mr Tenyu....Could you please enlighten us with your age and rank under Tom before you left his dojo?

Toby Threadgill / TSYR

Hi Toby,

I was given unofficial 1st dan(the hakama) somewhere after six months of training. I was give formal 1st dan after another year of training when I submitted a four page transcription of a 50 second clip of O Sensei's takemusu staff. My rank was removed after the incident with the parent.

-Tenyu

Toby Threadgill
02-10-2011, 06:56 PM
Hi Toby,

I was given unofficial 1st dan(the hakama) somewhere after six months of training. I was give formal 1st dan after another year of training when I submitted a four page transcription of a 50 second clip of O Sensei's takemusu staff. My rank was removed after the incident with the parent.

-Tenyu

Tenyu,

I don't know you or Tom. I certainly don't know the context of "the incident with the parent." Perhaps the context of that statement is in order?

And

Age, please?

Toby Threadgill / TSYR

Flintstone
02-10-2011, 07:50 PM
I certainly don't know the context of "the incident with the parent." Perhaps the context of that statement is in order?
Toby, that was mentioned before in the thread.

Tenyu
02-10-2011, 08:43 PM
Tenyu,

I don't know you or Tom. I certainly don't know the context of "the incident with the parent." Perhaps the context of that statement is in order?

And

Age, please?

Toby Threadgill / TSYR

Toby,

I'll be 30 very shortly. Yes the youtube page says I am already. My bank accounts have been hacked multiple times and the bank representatives have told me that nothing you put online is ever secure including encrypted credit card transactions. Last thing I want to do is make identity theft easier after all the trouble I've been through.

I really like your most recent video on youtube btw.

-Tenyu

graham christian
02-10-2011, 08:47 PM
Hi.I too believe the important point is honour and integrity. However I disagree with the implication that Tenyu, because of that one situation has no integrity or honour.
Once again some differenciation is needed here.
Being open and honest about his history shows integrity. Being open and honest with the fact he made mistakes he regrets is once again honourable. Validating and even encouraging others to learn from his past teacher is indeed a show of high integrity.
Now as to the basic situation of being held by the rule of not teaching what he learned that is a matter of integrity if that is the scene however that doesn't mean it's just black and white. You can still find a solution which is both ideal and maintains integrity.
Tenyu, I'm sure you still thoroughly respect your past teacher and I know of no teacher on earth who doesn't, underneath their upset or feeling of betrayal, want the best for their past students.
You could both get together and with non resistance transcend the emotional upset, the past, iron out the disagreements and search out a solution which suits both parties. A win/win situation for both parties concerned an a true expression of Aiki and non resistance. Feel free to ignore this if you disagree for I only offer it as a possibility and have been moved to do so.
Good luck in the future.
Regards.G.

lbb
02-10-2011, 08:56 PM
I'll be 30 very shortly. Yes the youtube page says I am already. My bank accounts have been hacked multiple times and the bank representatives have told me that nothing you put online is ever secure including encrypted credit card transactions. Last thing I want to do is make identity theft easier after all the trouble I've been through.

Hacking of bank accounts and identity theft are different things. A lot of people, myself included, have had their bank accounts "hacked", so called, due to careless handling of information by a bank or transaction processor. It sucks, but you shouldn't be out any money, you get a new account (which has no special vulnerability), and you move on. Typically in these cases, your personal information is never exposed. Likewise, no one is going to be able to steal your identity merely by knowing your age. Knowing your date of birth in combination with other personal information might make it possible, but merely knowing your age...no.

Tenyu
02-10-2011, 08:57 PM
The title of the thread also made me wonder: has "internal" become the "user friendly" or "cutting edge" or "breakthrough" or "world class" of the martial arts world: an obligatory but meaningless advertising buzzword?

I know my work is internal because the first year and a half doing stick was almost entirely external. I did have a lot of experience using different qualities of internal action with my previous training in karate, sports, and freestyle dance but I had not figured out yet how to apply it to my staffwork. When I finally figured it out ALL of my Aikido changed in a matter of days. It's pretty much impossible for me to do external now.

Marc Abrams
02-10-2011, 09:01 PM
Honesty, Trust and Integrity are the fundamental underpinnings of any successful social endeavor. The failure of a social endeavor typically can be traced to a a lack of honesty, trust and integrity. These fundamentals can not be written off as being culturally-based, nor can these fundamentals be dismissed because we have our own human failings that we must own up to.

Tenyu has talked about his being a student of Sensei Reed. He then talked about teaching Sensei kata? He talked about not signing a contract, as though the verbal agreement does not have any meaning or obligation.

Regardless of how Tenyu has "modified" what he learned from Sensei Reed, the genesis of his knowledge clearly came from his teacher. The learning of that knowledge took place with the explicit understanding that he could not teach it without his teacher's permission. This obligation does not vanish simply because this person has been expelled from an organization for mistakes of that person's own doing.

From my vantage point, I see a student who put a little time in with an accomplished teacher. The student was accepted by the teacher based upon certain explicit understandings; one of which being that he could not teach what he was taught without his teacher's explicit permission. The student made some mistakes and was expelled from the organization. Some time later, this student has repackaged what was learned from his teacher as being new and unique. In doing so, this student broke the agreement that was the basis under which he was allowed to learn. This student is now trying to say that he taught his teacher some things; his teacher took what he did from other sources, and that he really wasn't doing what he was taught in the first place.

Sounds to me like Tenyu has at a minimum broken the trust that was implicit in his becoming a student under his teacher. He is trying to justify his breach of oral contract by saying that it was not in writing and his teacher "stole" stuff from others. This is nothing less than trying to rationalize a degree of lack of integrity. The claim that he taught his teacher some kata or components, certainly brings into question truthfulness.

In the good old days, issues like this in a martial context could be life & death issues, which is why koryu guys take this stuff so very, very seriously. Breaches in honesty, trust and integrity are just as important, even though these issues are not ones of life & death in this situation. An unfortunate burden rests with Tenyu, which cannot be written off as not knowing the "full history." Based upon what he and his teacher have written, he has done nothing to alleviate that burden (in my own opinion). That is not a good way to start off on a new endeavor.

Marc Abrams

Tenyu
02-10-2011, 09:57 PM
Marc,

I was accused of plagiarizing. I have video proof that is not the case. You therefore now accuse me, someone you don't know, as a liar - ad hom.

I know many people will discriminate me for my young age, I fully expect it. I have no problem with it. Many are not afraid to use their own eyes to see instead of seeing what the Aikiweb hierarchy instructs them to be seeing. These are the people I want to attract. The thing with the staff, one's Aikido becomes completely transparent. I know it's an intimidating thing 'to be naked' especially if others are watching but that is the very first step to learning. The earth is in serious trouble right now, we are at the precipice of the consequences of an unprecedented, almost unfathomable overshoot of the earth's carrying capacity. This is an ecological fact that all of us will be dealing with in the very near future. What we're seeing in Egypt is not caused simply by a corrupt regime although Mubarak has never operated to the benefit of the people. Aikido's about waking up, and that's something we all need to do.

-Tenyu

Toby Threadgill
02-10-2011, 10:33 PM
The precipitating event leading to his expulsion was Tenyu deciding to berate a parent in front of their child while acting as assistant kids' class instructor.

&

Tenyu was allowed into the Instructor development program in Aikibojitsu with open arms, and was freely taught based upon a very clear agreement that he not teach Aikibojitsu without permission (without an Instructor's Certificate.) He has broken that agreement, and I am writing to ensure that people know what he is really doing.

Hello,

Well....This communication from Mr Reid is good enough for me. As far as I'm concerned Tenyu is hereby advised to never darken my doorstep. I do not suffer foolishness and that is exactly what I perceive to be the case here.

Mr Christian,

In my experience, Tenyu being "honest" about his training history is little more than thinly disquised marketing. If not for Tenyu's training history under Mr Reid, he would be no more worthy of comment than any other among the ubiquitous minons of mediocre budoka believing themselves qualified to start their own system of budo. Remember this guy is not some 30 year exponent of budo holding a shihan level license, but a 4th kyu in Karate & Aikido. Also remember that he was essentially issued hamon for demonstrating very poor conduct in relation to teaching duties during a childrens class in his teachers dojo. That is pretty damning stuff.

Instead of taking a cold hard introspective look in the mirror and seeking to start anew under a new sensei/role model, he comes here with a compromised reputation and dubious technical skills to publicly announce that he has attained a level of expertise commensurate with founding his own school of budo. Did he really think that making such a declaration among instructors with decades of experience would not result in some pretty intense scrutiny? If he did not, he further demonstrates why his present course is the wrong one.

Toby Threadgill / TSYR

Janet Rosen
02-10-2011, 10:37 PM
Instead of taking a cold hard introspective look in the mirror and seeking to start anew under a new sensei/role model, he comes here with a compromised reputation and dubious technical skills to publicly announce that he has attained a level of expertise commensurate with founding his own school of budo. Did he really think that making such a declaration among instructors with decades of experience would not result in some pretty intense scrutiny? If he did not, he further demonstrates why his present course is the wrong one.

Couldn't have possibly said it better myself.

graham christian
02-11-2011, 03:45 AM
Hello,

Well....This communication from Mr Reid is good enough for me. As far as I'm concerned Tenyu is hereby advised to never darken my doorstep. I do not suffer foolishness and that is exactly what I perceive to be the case here.

Mr Christian,

In my experience, Tenyu being "honest" about his training history is little more than thinly disquised marketing. If not for Tenyu's training history under Mr Reid, he would be no more worthy of comment than any other among the ubiquitous minons of mediocre budoka believing themselves qualified to start their own system of budo. Remember this guy is not some 30 year exponent of budo holding a shihan level license, but a 4th kyu in Karate & Aikido. Also remember that he was essentially issued hamon for demonstrating very poor conduct in relation to teaching duties during a childrens class in his teachers dojo. That is pretty damning stuff.

Instead of taking a cold hard introspective look in the mirror and seeking to start anew under a new sensei/role model, he comes here with a compromised reputation and dubious technical skills to publicly announce that he has attained a level of expertise commensurate with founding his own school of budo. Did he really think that making such a declaration among instructors with decades of experience would not result in some pretty intense scrutiny? If he did not, he further demonstrates why his present course is the wrong one.

Toby Threadgill / TSYR

Mr. Toby.
Tenyu did and does say quite open and honestly that he is or was officially 4th kyu not so?
I understand what Marc says in his last paragraph and also I don't agree with someone saying things like his teacher 'stole' blah blah. This does indeed show a lack of respect and integrity there.
However that's no reason for charachter assasination by you, me or anyone else for that matter if you want to talk about integrity and honour for doing so means to me you or whoever has been led into saying such.
People are not stupid, in fact they are more suspicious than not and I'm sure they can see a young person, or as you point out a person of a small number of years of experience, they can see he is 4th kyu, they can see he has been a banned from a school, they can see he has decided to start his own school, they can see he still has an issue with his past teacher that should be sorted out if possible. Therefore they can make their own conclusions.
Still, no reason to put him down if we're talking honour and budo.
He who talks about honour and budo should act it and not allow the complaining mind based on fears and doubts and sometimes even jealousies any expression at all. Such is my view. Live it or don't mention honour and integrity or else we are ourselves a lie, an empty barrel making lots of noise.
Regards. G.

Marc Abrams
02-11-2011, 07:54 AM
Marc,

I was accused of plagiarizing. I have video proof that is not the case. You therefore now accuse me, someone you don't know, as a liar - ad hom.

I know many people will discriminate me for my young age, I fully expect it. I have no problem with it. Many are not afraid to use their own eyes to see instead of seeing what the Aikiweb hierarchy instructs them to be seeing. These are the people I want to attract. The thing with the staff, one's Aikido becomes completely transparent. I know it's an intimidating thing 'to be naked' especially if others are watching but that is the very first step to learning. The earth is in serious trouble right now, we are at the precipice of the consequences of an unprecedented, almost unfathomable overshoot of the earth's carrying capacity. This is an ecological fact that all of us will be dealing with in the very near future. What we're seeing in Egypt is not caused simply by a corrupt regime although Mubarak has never operated to the benefit of the people. Aikido's about waking up, and that's something we all need to do.

-Tenyu

Tenyu:

Your teacher was starting to train in Aikido and Aikibojutsu before you were even a proverbial itch in your parents' pants and you would like us to believe that your "video evidence" proves that you were teaching your teacher moves with the bo? You would then like us to equate your situation with what is going on in Egypt?

I seriously think that you would benefit from stepping back from your self-imposed precipice and listen deeply to the words of Mr. Threadgill. If you continue on this path that you are on, you will find many, many potential doors closed to you in your pursuit of training in martial arts.

Marc Abrams

Cliff Judge
02-11-2011, 09:05 AM
Guys,

When people who have very high opinions of themselves but are terrified of examining themselves critically are fed a lot of comfy cotton-candy feedback, and encouraged to not look at that scary old face in the mirror, you can sometimes get a good politician or stage performer, but you never ever get a good martial artist.

Folks saying things like "oh this is just like O Sensei and Bruce Lee" or "who are we to judge him, leave it up to the courts to decide" should really consider how harmful what you are saying could be to somebody like Tenyu whose ego is engaged in a running battle with reality.

If you are trying to show compassion to the guy, you aren't really doing it by comparing him to Jigoro Kano and helping him quibble around his recent failures of character and integrity. He's got an opportunity to grow here but the sugarcoating is going to work against him.

niall
02-11-2011, 09:19 AM
There are some interesting questions here. Like when is it possible to start your own style. The naming of a style too. Maybe they deserve their own threads.

Tenyu I don't want only to be negative but I don't think your first post was clear enough. I hope that was by accident. And I think you are now being a little defensive. Your teacher is not happy about what has happened and it is your responsibility to find a way. You could ask him sincerely what he would like you to do. To start with I think you should tell him you will not do the katas that he developed and I also think you should respect his wishes about naming.

The situation with the parent concerns me too. Do you know why it happened and can you guarantee it won't happen again. I'm not asking you to reply - I too am agreeing with Toby Threadgill's point about a hard look in the mirror. It's not a shameful thing if you're not yet ready to teach. If that's the way it works out just do your best to become ready.

Keith Larman
02-11-2011, 09:48 AM
In my craft it took me years of very hard work to get some people to even start to share with me. Because of guys like him. There are *many* things I was eventually told, in confidence, after a lot of hard work to *earn* that confidence. It took years because of guys like him. And yet I still get guys who *tell* me that I *should* share everything because the world is entitled to everything no matter how little they work, no matter how little effort they put out, no matter ... No matter... Guys like him.

Pffft. Gimme, gimme, gimme. They want it all right now. Their word is just another bargaining chip. But it is worthless.

The attitude sucks.

Color me disgusted with the world.

Toby Threadgill
02-11-2011, 09:49 AM
He who talks about honour and budo should act it and not allow the complaining mind based on fears and doubts and sometimes even jealousies any expression at all. Such is my view. Live it or don't mention honour and integrity or else we are ourselves a lie, an empty barrel making lots of noise.


Mr Graham,

I got a good chuckle out of your post this morning. What an out of place platitude.

Sometimes calling a spade a spade is in order. Somethings are pretty black and white. Tenyu came here to proclaim his expertise among a crowd that includes some rather urbane budoka, he was not chased down by thugs.

Me thinks you should reconsider your aiki induced casuistry lest you end up too far down the rabbit hole.

"Tut, tut, child! Everything's got a moral, if only you can find it." - The Duchess

Toby Threadgill / TSYR

Demetrio Cereijo
02-11-2011, 09:59 AM
When people who have very high opinions of themselves but are terrified of examining themselves critically are fed a lot of comfy cotton-candy feedback, and encouraged to not look at that scary old face in the mirror, you can sometimes get a good politician or stage performer, but you never ever get a good martial artist.
For sure, however we should also consider if everyone who is passing juzguement about Tenyu (positive or negative, it really doesn't matter) have deeply examined themselves. Are we using with him the same standards we use for ourselves? Are we sure we are not politicians or stage performers too? Are we bandwagoning against him (or supporting him) because some obscure reason we do not want to address or for reasons we do not dare to make in public?
Folks saying things like "oh this is just like O Sensei and Bruce Lee" or "who are we to judge him, leave it up to the courts to decide" should really consider how harmful what you are saying could be to somebody like Tenyu whose ego is engaged in a running battle with reality.
Then he is as "ego driven" and disconnected of reality as O Sensei or Bruce Lee were when they decided to break the conventions and do what they considered appropriate. Only with time and deep knowledge about both Aikibojutsu and Aikibodo we could tell objectively and aseptically if Tenyu is a genius, a full of it plagiarian or something in the middle.
We don't really know if he is as crazy as he looks and how being a hamoned student of Read Sensei can lead us, even inconsciously, to consider both him and his version of aikibojutsu style worthless.
If you are trying to show compassion to the guy, you aren't really doing it by comparing him to Jigoro Kano and helping him quibble around his recent failures of character and integrity. He's got an opportunity to grow here but the sugarcoating is going to work against him.
It is no sugarcoating, is asking for not applying double standards. He has character flaws, lacks integrity, lacks honour… as if in the budo world everyone, including the most respected style founders and masters, is a shining example of virtue, good behaviour and moral integrity.

lbb
02-11-2011, 10:13 AM
However that's no reason for charachter assasination by you, me or anyone else for that matter if you want to talk about integrity and honour for doing so means to me you or whoever has been led into saying such.

Graham, I have to say, whenever I read a sentence like the one above, my eyes start to cross. For the life of me, I can't figure out what you are trying to say. Can you please try to break it down into two or three simpler sentences, with one subject and one predicate each, and further explain what you mean by "character assassination"? It would also be helpful if you could provide an example of this alleged "character assassination". If I say that John Wilkes Booth shot Abraham Lincoln, that's not character assassination, that's just the facts.

lbb
02-11-2011, 10:19 AM
For sure, however we should also consider if everyone who is passing juzguement about Tenyu (positive or negative, it really doesn't matter) have deeply examined themselves. Are we using with him the same standards we use for ourselves? Are we sure we are not politicians or stage performers too? Are we bandwagoning against him (or supporting him) because some obscure reason we do not want to address or for reasons we do not dare to make in public?
Why are those questions relevant? I didn't come on here claiming to have invented a new style of budo; if I had, I'd expect some scrutiny. When you get up on stage, then you can perhaps being accused of being a "politician" or a "stage performer" -- what's your objective in trying to pin those labels on the audience?

Demetrio Cereijo
02-11-2011, 10:28 AM
Why are those questions relevant? I didn't come on here claiming to have invented a new style of budo; if I had, I'd expect some scrutiny. When you get up on stage, then you can perhaps being accused of being a "politician" or a "stage performer" -- what's your objective in trying to pin those labels on the audience?

Simply adressing Cliff's idea about people who doesn't look critically at themselves don't make good martial artists.

Are we good martial artists (or at least are we trying) or are we not really diferent than those politicians and stage performers? What are we in reality?

Mark Freeman
02-11-2011, 10:32 AM
Hi All,

I find some of the questions being raised in my mind by reading this thread might be worth posting for folk to consider.

If a teacher gives knowledge to a student - who does the knowledge belong to?

If a teacher helps a student develop a skill, who's is the skill?

If a student 'steals' the art of his teacher is it his? Isn't this historically a big point in the world of MA.

The questions of honesty and integrity come down to what passed between the student and the teacher and any agreements or promises made in that exchange.

I know in the world of budo we like to think of ourselves as somehow acting out of some higher moral calling than others not engaged in our particular pursuit. But my guess is, that the world of 'budo' has about the same proportion of dishonesty and no integrity as just about any other group you care to mention.

I'm not directing this at anyone in particular, just posing some questions and pondering them myself.

Personally, like everyone else, I have an opinion, and I think the OP was a bit daft to come onto Akiweb and use the platform to market a 'new' artform with a) so little time spent developing it and b) no blessing from his former teacher.

regards

Mark

lbb
02-11-2011, 10:48 AM
Simply adressing Cliff's idea about people who doesn't look critically at themselves don't make good martial artists.

Ok, so, maybe interesting questions in another context, but inappropriately juxtaposed here. Got it.

Janet Rosen
02-11-2011, 11:37 AM
I think the part that just totally flabbergasts me is the OP splashing himself here in the middle of the forums - to those who have suggested perhaps he's another OSensei, my reply is, OSensei was totally dedicated to the development of his art; he may have enjoyed hobnobbing with the elite but he would not have achieved the level he did without putting in the work. Were the OP serious about developing his art, rather than court controversy, why not quietly relocate, work on one's art, gather a group of students, refine one's art.
Should every person who has ever claimed to be the Messiah be accepted at face value simply because (many people believe that) Jesus was therefore there is no reason to exercise critical or ethical judgment regarding other claimants?

Janet Rosen
02-11-2011, 11:41 AM
Graham, you walk a dangerous path suggesting that only a person herself blameless in life ought to have a personal code of ethics she applies to self and others. That would seem to preclude ever saying "Yamei! This is just wrong!" or taking a principled public stand on any side of an issue.

phitruong
02-11-2011, 12:08 PM
Simply adressing Cliff's idea about people who doesn't look critically at themselves don't make good martial artists.



there are those who looked at themselves only to see greatness; thus, no longer look at themselves.

Jesus came upon a crowd who ready to stone a sinful woman. he stopped the crowd and spoke "lets he who has no sin cast the first stone". a stone sailed out of the crowd. Jesus turned around and said "Mom??!!" :)

George S. Ledyard
02-11-2011, 12:10 PM
Hi All,

I find some of the questions being raised in my mind by reading this thread might be worth posting for folk to consider.

If a teacher gives knowledge to a student - who does the knowledge belong to?


That depends on what the knowledge is and the conditions attached to the giving of it. In the Koryu, knowledge belongs to the Ryu, not to any individual. Even the Headmaster is only the custodian of that knowledge. So, without permission to teach, no one is entitled... the knowledge is still the property of the Ryu until you are certified to teach and given permission to do so. Having an instructor certification isn't enough... you actually need permission.

On the other hand, an art like Aikido is different. Although before the war it wasn't. O-Sensei treated what he did like a koryu in many ways. He only taught a small group of deshi specially selected and didn't show his art publicly. The first public demo of Aikido after the war which was put together by the Nidai Doshu and the leadership at Headquarters was a very big deal precisely because it signaled the end of the art as a private martial practice directly transmitted by the Founder. At that point, much as the folks at Headquarters hate to admit it, the knowledge they were passing on became public domain so to speak.

Tom Read's teachings actually fall into both private and public domain areas. The Aikido he teaches is public domain. It's simply his take on the art and he accepts anyone from any style at his dojo and his seminars with no strings attached. Of course it's always good form to acknowledge where you got something, I always try to. But unless someone is training with him and wishes rank from him, what is given is done so freely with no expectation of any control or influence over what you do with it after you leave.

The Bo work is quite different. It is a unique creation. The entire conceptualization behind the technique is his alone. So with his Bo style, he chose to treat the knowledge more like a koryu. He didn't accept you as a student unless you committed to not teach without permission. He has every right to do this. The art is his and he gets to decide. You can choose to abide by the conditions and train or you can choose not to.

Saotome Sensei did precisely the same thing with his Two Sword. The Two Sword work we do is his unique creation. It isn't really like anyone else's two sword. For many years we only had permission to teach his Two Sword work within our dojos. Even though I taught Aikido all over the place, both within the ASU and at dojos with other affiliations, I couldn't teach the Two Sword work. So, it was a very big deal for me when, ten years ago, I was invited to demo at the first Aiki Expo and Sensei instructed me to do Two Sword. To my knowledge that was the first time it had been shown to a large group of folks from outside the ASU.

So, whereas Saotome Sensei would teach Aikido with every expectation that, whatever he gave you, you were free to take or leave, to go off and make it your own. The Two Sword on the other hand was different. It wasn't given to hit by O-Sensei nor did he get it from some koryu... it was a product of his imagination and his ability to take what he knew from Aikido and apply it in a Two Sword context. That entitled him to put stip[ualtions on what you could do with the knowledge. Just as in Tom Read's Aikibojitsu.

If a student 'steals' the art of his teacher is it his? Isn't this historically a big point in the world of MA.

There is a massive and total distinction between the normal process of ryu ha evolution and what we are talking about. It is absolutely true that, new ryu were created when high level practitioners started to have their own ideas about the direction they wanted to take their training. Almost always these folks would already have some certification or other in the ryu. In other words they were advanced students who, in their full maturity had ideas that they wished to pursue that could not be incorporated within the ryu. It was considered disrespectful of ones teacher to change things and still call the art by the same name. So you gave it a new name and took it out into the world.

The issue of an unqualified person doing this was always real. There were numerous instances of people stealing scrolls etc and claiming legitimacy that hey had not earned. But in the old days this tended to take care of itself. You hung out your shingle and folks showed up at he door to check you out. If they beat you up in front of your students, you'd lose your students because no one wanted to train with someone who didn't know what he was doing. Even O-Sensei had to hold his own early on when he first started his own art. He had a number of challenges in the Ueshiba Juku days.

Of course it is considered a bit too crass to do dojo busting these days. Aikido in particular, with no competition (except for the Tomiki folks), has developed a sort of "it's all good" mentality. How many Aikido dojos do you think there's be in your area if the teacher had to be able to hold his or her own with trained martial artists coming through the front door? Maybe 5 - 10% or so of the dojos we actually have?

So, with the case under discussion, we are not talking about someone who mastered a style and now has his own ideas about where he wants to take his training. In a case like that, you'd have someone who had rank and was a functioning senior member of a style when he felt the need to innovate beyond what he'd been taught. Usually this can be accomplished by following certain protocols. Often, it is initiated by the teacher himself when he recognizes that the student is chafing at the boundaries imposed by his particular style. Done properly, it is not necessarily a break but rather a process of growth.

Instead what we have here is a junior practitioner, without certification, who is actually asked to leave a style. The commitment not to teach is doubly binding as. not only did he commit not to teach the style if he left, he wasn't even a certified instructor when he was still training in the style.

I am always staggered by various folks and their own sense of entitlement and self importance. One of my friends had a 4th Kyu student try and take over his dojo. She decided that she knew better how to run classes, she knew better what should be taught. She actually went to him and started telling him how to run the dojo and when he wasn't responsive she attempted to organize opposition to the Chief Instructor behind his back. The teacher is the founder of the school. He put a couple hundred thousand in to the dojo, which is stunning, he's got decades of practice under his belt and the full support of Saotome Sensei, and she felt that she knew better... at 4th Kyu!

There are whole organizations devoted just to those folks whose teachers failed to recognize what incredible talents they are so they left them and started their own things. But they still wanted the facade of legitimacy so they all banded together and provided ersatz ranks and certifications in each others arts. The world sokeship council is a perfect example of this idiocy. But even they usually don't accept a 4th kyu with no dan ranking whatever as a legitimate Founder of a style.

This is just another case of "Mark Tennenhouse" for those of you who remeber that fiasco.

This is not "piling on" or character assassination. This is what happens when you step out and decide to try to be a big deal and start your own style. No one asked this person to post or to seek feedback on what he was doing. But once you put it out there, it's going to get scrutinized. I've posted videos and some folks liked it and others thought it was bullshit. If I was worried about some folks not liking it, I wouldn't have put it out there. What else would one expect to happen? No one is forcing anyone to post... If Tenyu had not posted, this would have remained a matter between himself and his former teacher... Arcada is not the hub of the Aikido universe, or any universe for that matter. We would never even have heard of this except as some story Read Sensei might relate at some potluck for our entertainment.

But once someone announces he has founded his own style and puts it out there, YouTube videos, training history and all, he has essentially asked us to legitimize him by treating him seriously. No one is going to treat him seriously without scrutinizing his claims, which beyond whether he has technical skills, extends to getting a sense of what kind of person he is.

The questions of honesty and integrity come down to what passed between the student and the teacher and any agreements or promises made in that exchange.

I know in the world of budo we like to think of ourselves as somehow acting out of some higher moral calling than others not engaged in our particular pursuit. But my guess is, that the world of 'budo' has about the same proportion of dishonesty and no integrity as just about any other group you care to mention.


No question... it may be a bit worse since so many come to martial arts because of some sense of insecurity and inadequacy. If their training doesn't help them heal, they just become messed up folks with martial skills.

I'm not directing this at anyone in particular, just posing some questions and pondering them myself.

Personally, like everyone else, I have an opinion, and I think the OP was a bit daft to come onto Akiweb and use the platform to market a 'new' artform with a) so little time spent developing it and b) no blessing from his former teacher.

regards

You wouldn't have very experienced senior teachers posting on this topic if it were just a matter of the individual in question. But this is a forum that is a resource for newbies as well as highly experienced people. Folks actions have a karmic payback that takes care of things in the end so we don't really have to do anything. But the inexperienced folks who come here to learn from those more experienced need to have some guidance. So the senior folks should give their opinions. In some cases those opinions will be largely in agreement and in others there will be little agreement, even amongst the most senior teachers. That's fine because they serve to frame the debate and the newbies can decide whom they agree with.

But these discussions are a complete waste if people don't express their ideas. The whole "it's all good" and "you can't be wrong if you are just sincere" attitude isn't true, in my opinion, and this is a place where those issues get sorted out. Folks who wish to treat twaddle seriously are totally free to do so, but so are the folks that think twaddle is twaddle free to express that too.

Gary David
02-11-2011, 12:40 PM
You know if I went into a Biker bar out in San Bernardino or Fontana, set up my projector and showed film of my new fighting "style" I would not have to worry about character assassination......................

phitruong
02-11-2011, 12:46 PM
You know if I went into a Biker bar out in San Bernardino or Fontana, set up my projector and showed film of my new fighting "style" I would not have to worry about character assassination......................

depends on your ride. you might not have time to setup the projector. moped isn't a ride! :D

Gary David
02-11-2011, 01:05 PM
My point exactly........

graham christian
02-11-2011, 02:21 PM
Mr Graham,

I got a good chuckle out of your post this morning. What an out of place platitude.

Sometimes calling a spade a spade is in order. Somethings are pretty black and white. Tenyu came here to proclaim his expertise among a crowd that includes some rather urbane budoka, he was not chased down by thugs.

Me thinks you should reconsider your aiki induced casuistry lest you end up too far down the rabbit hole.

"Tut, tut, child! Everything's got a moral, if only you can find it." - The Duchess

Toby Threadgill / TSYR

Toby, the chuckles mutual.
Nice spade platitude and some things black or white. Mmm.
So he came to proclaim his expertise, so what? Amongst senior budoka, so what?
He is open to be communicated to, advised, helped maybe, or even disagreed with.
Your response to me is full of what you accuse me of and that includes your end casuistry.
My thoughts were general, it appears you take them personal.
'Alas poor yoric.'
Regards.G.

Toby Threadgill
02-11-2011, 03:25 PM
Toby, the chuckles mutual.
Nice spade platitude and some things black or white. Mmm.
So he came to proclaim his expertise, so what? Amongst senior budoka, so what?
He is open to be communicated to, advised, helped maybe, or even disagreed with.
Your response to me is full of what you accuse me of and that includes your end casuistry.
My thoughts were general, it appears you take them personal.
'Alas poor yoric.'
Regards.G.

ROFLOL.... "Itachi no saigobe"

graham christian
02-11-2011, 03:27 PM
Graham, you walk a dangerous path suggesting that only a person herself blameless in life ought to have a personal code of ethics she applies to self and others. That would seem to preclude ever saying "Yamei! This is just wrong!" or taking a principled public stand on any side of an issue.

Janet. Sounds spooky. A dangerous path eh?
Never mentioned blameless or that one should be a saint before saying anything.
That does remind me of that religious saying about 'don't judge lest you be judged' though. Or even people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. Those kind of sayings ask us to look at ourselves as much as we look at another and say about others......... Well you work it out.
So let me clarify. I precluded that if we want to use integrity, honour, as a reason to be against then we must do it in an honourable way.
Say it straight to the person concerned if it's about your view on him in a way that communicates to him.
' Tenyu, I think you are too young and too inexperienced to start your own style.'
'Tenyu, I think it would be best for you if you contact your old teacher first before you set up.'
'Tenyu, I find it quite unacceptable you saying you taught sensei reid anything, could you explain?'
'Tenyu, well done and good luck.'

Direct, they could also have your reasoning attatched. It's not hard to do.
There's no honour in using things like snake oil salesman or thinly disguised blah blah. It's childish and only reflects on the person who says it not on the person being spoken about.
This is what I mean, this is also my humble opinion.
I offered my own personal conclusion which was for him to clear up the disagreement with the teacher concerned first. That would be an honourable, albeit hard thing to do. That's how I see it.
Is this dangerous? Is pointing out the pluses along with the negatives dangerous?
You don't have to look up the word honour and say about this context or that context, you just have to observe honourable men and women of the past and see if they chose sarcasm, tittle tattle, name calling or other childish behaviour.
Using the fact that there are people on this forum of great experience and many many years of training and gaining respect as a back up to attack someone is cowardly in my opinion.(not saying you do this by the way) I only give as an example of arrogance for those people referred to are quite capable of saying what they want to say, if indeed anything. I guarantee if they did it would be considered and not reactionary.
So integrity and honour does matter and is reflected in the way a person communicates also. Is this dangerous? Is this holier than thou? Are you still my friend? (heh, heh.)
Regards.G.

Keith Larman
02-11-2011, 03:38 PM
Good, lord, after reading some of these wise, warm and fuzzy posts of infinite understanding and overall goodness I get the urge to start rubbing patchouli into my nipples and chant with positive energy for everyone...

Oh. Sorry, the urge is gone. Back to my normal obviously less evolved self.

Character assassination? Are you kidding? When he either lied intentionally to get the training or broke his promise and started teaching without permission he basically committed character suicide. Then to go on-line and talk about his him teaching his new style with all those qualifications of honest to god kyu ranks? Wow.

That thar be a self-inflicted wound.

Sometimes all you should do is point and say "Hey, dude, that's just wrong." Because it is.

So... Tenyu. Dude. That's just wrong.

Now what the hell is patchouli anyway...

Toby Threadgill
02-11-2011, 04:04 PM
LOL,

Jeeze people. 15 inquiries cluttering up my mailbox? Try using Google.

Toby Threadgill

Keith Larman
02-11-2011, 04:15 PM
LOL,

Jeeze people. 15 inquiries cluttering up my mailbox? Try using Google.

Toby Threadgill

Lesser known zen koan -- "What is the sound of a weasel's "silent but deadly"?"

Mark Freeman
02-11-2011, 04:33 PM
You wouldn't have very experienced senior teachers posting on this topic if it were just a matter of the individual in question. But this is a forum that is a resource for newbies as well as highly experienced people. Folks actions have a karmic payback that takes care of things in the end so we don't really have to do anything. But the inexperienced folks who come here to learn from those more experienced need to have some guidance. So the senior folks should give their opinions. In some cases those opinions will be largely in agreement and in others there will be little agreement, even amongst the most senior teachers. That's fine because they serve to frame the debate and the newbies can decide whom they agree with.


Hi George,

I have only clipped a short section of your answers to my rhetorical questions.

I appreciate the full and knowledgable post in response. I happen to be a long serving student of a teacher who has lived his whole 55 year aikido career as a 'budo' man. He removed himself from the wider world of aikido many years ago to follow what he saw as his own true path, which he felt he owed to his own teacher, keeping his own integrity rather than deal with the egocentric politics emanating from abroad.

Plenty of students have gained what they know from him, then decided they know better, then gone off to form their own fiefdoms and mini empires. Some of them openly acknowledge the part he played in their own development and some don't.

The world of MA it seems to me to be slightly stuck in its tradition of thinking it 'owns' knowledge, I can see why it is this way, as knowledge is power so to speak. I personally play by my teachers rules, I only teach with his permission to members of our own federation.I have no problem with that. However, there is nothing to stop me leaving and setting up my own school of 'Markido' and gathering a whole new group of my own students. I have the knowledge and skill it's mine to give.

anyway, thanks again for the time taken. Personally I think Tenyu has shot himself right in the foot doing what he has done, and only time will tell if he has learnt any lessons from the affair. He's not the first and certainly wont be the last to think that he has more to offer than he really has.

regards,

Mark

Mark Freeman
02-11-2011, 04:48 PM
Now what the hell is patchouli anyway...

Oh Keith, do you not know of patchouli??... it is unique amongst exotic aromas... dark dusty base notes that hint of drumbeats and dancing, sweet sticky middle notes that dilate the nostrils and place warm hands on hips, spicy top notes that lift the imagination like smoke from a peacepipe...it is the smell of hippy heaven:D

and not everyone likes it.

p.s. why on your nipples?:D

kewms
02-11-2011, 04:54 PM
Oh come on. The OP has put himself out there as not just a teacher, but the creator of a new style. If he can't take a little criticism, he'd better fold his tent and go home now, because it doesn't get any easier.

Katherine

oisin bourke
02-11-2011, 05:15 PM
The points brought up in this thread RE integrity and permission to teach propriatry knowledge are excellent, but a lot of Aikido (and Koryu) people are attending seminars given by Dan Harden and Minoru Akuzawa, both of whom are teaching material based on teachings received from Daito Ryu groups. They may not have taken Keppan, but ,to the best of my knowledge, All Daito Ryu groups teach their members on the assumption that they will not teach non-members without permission and/or appropriate certification..

Akuzawa and Dan both have undeniable skills, but, in principle, how is what they are doing different from Tenyu is doing? Of course if they have received the appropriate license/permission, this is a non-issue, but it's probably worth clarifying.

I REALLY don't want to start a flame war and I have no personal "thing" against Dan, Akuzawa or anyone else, honestly, but does no-one else see a dichotomy here? Or am I missing something?

graham christian
02-11-2011, 05:24 PM
Keith, try this one- Hu shuo ba dao.

Demetrio Cereijo
02-11-2011, 05:59 PM
Akuzawa and Dan both have undeniable skills, but, in principle, how is what they are doing different from Tenyu is doing? Of course if they have received the appropriate license/permission, this is a non-issue, but it's probably worth clarifying.
I think both encountered similar reactions when they started to work outside of the establisment.

Or am I missing something?
Group dynamics is what you are missing, imo.

graham christian
02-11-2011, 06:09 PM
I think both encountered similar reactions when they started to work outside of the establisment.

Group dynamics is what you are missing, imo.

Love it. I must say on this particular thread I am impressed by your views.
G.

Lorel Latorilla
02-12-2011, 02:45 AM
Maybe we should see this guy to see he's teaching a legitimate style/legitimate knowledge. Maybe he's a martial arts genius (albeit a sheisty one), who knows?

Mary Eastland
02-12-2011, 09:15 AM
Maybe we should see this guy to see he's teaching a legitimate style/legitimate knowledge. Maybe he's a martial arts genius (albeit a sheisty one), who knows?

He is among good company. Aikiweb is getting to be so funny. It is all illusion. We have people on here who don't train in Aikido defining Aikido to people who have trained for decades. And those people are listening.
:)
The emperor really has no clothes.
Mary

Demetrio Cereijo
02-12-2011, 09:46 AM
We have people on here who don't train in Aikido defining Aikido to people who have trained (in what they think is Aikido) for decades. And those people are listening.
Edited for :)
The emperor really has no clothes.
I would not discard this possibility. Who is the emperor, btw?

Mary Eastland
02-12-2011, 10:33 AM
"Who is the emperor, btw?"
It is a Fairy tale. Google "the Emperor's New Clothes."
M

graham christian
02-12-2011, 12:29 PM
We have people who havn't ever done politics telling Mubarak to go.
Ahhh. What is this world coming to?
Thoughtfully.G.

Demetrio Cereijo
02-12-2011, 01:23 PM
It is a Fairy tale. Google "the Emperor's New Clothes."
So you are pointing me to a 19th century danish version of a 14th century spanish tale...

You've just masakatsu agatsu katsu hayabi'ed this thread.

Cady Goldfield
02-12-2011, 02:20 PM
We have people on here who don't train in Aikido defining Aikido to people who have trained for decades. And those people are listening.

Unless we know the complete histories, scholarship and training backgrounds of these "people on here who don't train in Aikido," we should not be hasty in concluding that they have nothing of value to say about Aikido to "people who have trained for decades."

Maybe that is why "those people" of the latter group are listening to what those of the former group are saying.

Chris Li
02-12-2011, 02:33 PM
He is among good company. Aikiweb is getting to be so funny. It is all illusion. We have people on here who don't train in Aikido defining Aikido to people who have trained for decades. And those people are listening.
:)
The emperor really has no clothes.
Mary

The fact that they are listening should say something important.

In the last 30 years I've trained with or seen just about every major student of the founder. I've also read everything that the founder ever wrote (that has been published, anyway), in the original Japanese.

And I'm listening.

Best,

Chris

Amassus
02-12-2011, 03:17 PM
Wow!
What an interesting thread.

I'm reminded of a story told at the dojo I train at. Another chap in town runs his own style of aikido after my instructor refused him shodan due to a poor attitude. AFAIK, the guy has awesome technique and I have trained with people he has taught, however, my sensei refused him shodan due to his immense ego and ill-treatment of his uke during grading. This guy eventually sought out other aikido styles to train with to get himself graded to shodan. Then he opened up his own dojo and off he went.

To this day, my sensei feels guilty about letting him train for so long, hoping the guy would change as he came through the kyu ranks.

IMO, integrity, personal honour and especially humility play a large part in the MA. If not, you might as well be doing a sport.

Dean.

Mary Eastland
02-12-2011, 03:33 PM
You guys are right. I am noticeing a trend on here where people say they don't do seminars and they are not marketing anything and then the next thing we see is that they are saving aikido from itself. So why shouldn't Kenyru join right in?
Why is it okay for some and not for others?
Mary

dps
02-12-2011, 03:48 PM
Maybe Tenyu didn't recall he wasn't an Aikibojitsu Instructor.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4qDZ4B1kww

dps

Cady Goldfield
02-12-2011, 03:54 PM
Mary,
I don't see anyone trying to "save aikido from itself," only a handful of approachable people with extraordinary body skill/knowledge that, if one were to scrutinize both it and Ueshiba O-Sensei's, would find that they are teachable and learnable, and are, in fact, truly the birthright of Aikido.

This is off-topic from the OP, and it's intended to be so. I am addressing only your comments about Aikido that are not a part of the original thread topic.

Demetrio Cereijo
02-12-2011, 04:13 PM
Wow!
What an interesting thread.

I'm reminded of a story told at the dojo I train at. Another chap in town runs his own style of aikido after my instructor refused him shodan due to a poor attitude.

Your story reminded me another similar one, but in this case the student's "poor attitude" alleged was in fact an attempt to preserve instructor's monopoly as the only legit aikido instruction provider in town.

George S. Ledyard
02-12-2011, 05:46 PM
The fact that they are listening should say something important.

In the last 30 years I've trained with or seen just about every major student of the founder. I've also read everything that the founder ever wrote (that has been published, anyway), in the original Japanese.

And I'm listening.

Best,

Chris

Hi Chris,
It's the same with me... except for the original Japanese part... It's not that these folks from "outside" are arbiters of what is good Aikido. They don't do Aikido. However, they understand "aiki" and that makes them worth listening to. Not very many Aikido teachers from the post war period had the kind of "aiki" skills the pre-war folks did. And those that did, like my teacher Saotome Sensei, really had little or no vocabulary for talking about what he was doing.

The best TEACHERS of "aiki" I have encountered were all from outside Aikido. Kuroda, Don Angier and Toby Threadgill, all of whom Stan Pranin invited to the Aiki Expos, now ten years ago for the first one would fall into what I would call the softer side of the "aiki" skills continuum. Howard Popkin as well... Ushiro, Dan, Mike, and Ark would fall into the harder, more power oriented end of the "aiki" spectrum.

Meeting with Ushiro Sensei changed Ikeda Sensei's Aikido. As he put it, "Saotome Sensei was showing this to us all along, but we were too stupid to understand." Saotome Sensei himself, when watching Ushiro Sensei teaching commented that he had been teaching the same thing for 35 years. Sensei is a believer in the idea that Aikido, has no style or set form. As far as he was concerned, Ushiro's karate was Aikido. Anyway, my point is that someone as accomplished as Ikeda Sensei completely redid his Aikido based on listening to someone from outside who, one might say, didn't do Aikido.

William Gleason trained in Japan under Yamaguchi Sensei for ten years. He's been doing Aikido, some of the best Aikido you can find in my opinion, for 40 years or so. He has also been completely redoing his Aikido based on what he has gotten from Dan H. This is not a guy who needed to up his game to be one of the best, any more than Ikeda Sensei. These are people absolutely as good as anyone you can find anywhere and they are "listening" to folks from "outside".

I have trained with most of the big guys, here and in Japan. Some really have it, some don't. But even the ones who do, rarely explain it even remotely as well as the folks we frequently mention can do. Maybe, if you have one of the teachers who really does have the juice, IF you are talented, and IF you train your ass off, you MIGHT duplicate their skills. On the other hand, with decent explanation, anyone can do Aikido with "aiki". Certainly there will always be someone who does it better... but everyone is capable of doing Aikido that works for precisely the same reasons that the highest ranking Aikido teacher's does. "aiki" is not just the province of the 8th Dans.

I look at the current changes happening in Aikido as a process of trying to put "aiki" back into Aikido for the mass of folks training, not just a few 8th Dans while everyone else flounders around. I am sure there are plenty of folks who didn't see a problem existing in the first place and they simply wonder what all the fuss is about. It's like counseling... you can't get better until you admit there's a problem. Much of the Aikido community is "in denial' as far as I am concerned. I see this as cross style, cross organization. Whereas there are individual teachers who have figured things out, I have not yet encountered anyone from within Aikido that seems to have solved the issue of how to pass on the knowledge well.

The folks from outside tend to offer detailed, principle based instruction which can change your Aikido quickly and substantially if you already have some background. That's why people like me are listening. And I can tell you for a fact that there are others who are VERY senior doing the same but not talking about it because they'd get in trouble for doing so. I meet them on the mat, so I know.

George S. Ledyard
02-12-2011, 05:48 PM
Your story reminded me another similar one, but in this case the student's "poor attitude" alleged was in fact an attempt to preserve instructor's monopoly as the only legit aikido instruction provider in town.

It's just as easy to find a teacher who isn't acting well as a students who isn't. Most folks, in either role, are just fine. When you find one who isn't, it's time for a break.

Mary Eastland
02-12-2011, 07:12 PM
Here I will say it again. Ron Ragusa Sensei has" IT". Honest, not that you will ever come here to find out. How could anyone in a tiny Aikido dojo in the Berkshires have it?
Well he does. He has IT and he has IT in the context of Aikido. With no competion or besting of others or making others wrong so he can be right.
Ignore this again because how can somebody from Aikido have IT?
Whatever!
Best
Mary

graham christian
02-12-2011, 08:21 PM
Here I will say it again. Ron Ragusa Sensei has" IT". Honest, not that you will ever come here to find out. How could anyone in a tiny Aikido dojo in the Berkshires have it?
Well he does. He has IT and he has IT in the context of Aikido. With no competion or besting of others or making others wrong so he can be right.
Ignore this again because how can somebody from Aikido have IT?
Whatever!
Best
Mary

Ah Mary. I begin to see what your frustration is. Don't worry about it and get frustrated, just use it as a chance to practice Aikido.
I've never met Ron and yet I see he has a greater understanding of Aiki than many. I notice he can differenciate between mind, body and spirit and see their correlation also. Of course those who like to call it 'body' this and'body' that are welcome to do so and that is also part of Aikido.
As I keep saying, and it's always misinterpreted, it's all good.
I mention IT is already in Aikido and get attacked but it's only by those who don't believe it or want it yesterday or think others are hiding the secrets of it. It's all good.
I mention many things and learn from the experience. It's all good. Sometimes it's very amusing too. Take the word Aiki for example and see how many respond with views of all kinds, even historical. It may be to justify their view or it may be to inform, it's all fascinating none the less.
I wonder how many know how far back Aiki goes? Takeda did either teach it or share it with O'Sensei but it goes way back further than that, back to kempo and buddhist monks. All interesting as background data but as always it will boil down to whether you view budo and such as self developement or self defence.
He who really studies the history of these things will see which came first and thus how it is then 'borrowed' for more violent means. Hence those who want it for self defence (fear reasons) or domination reasons or even control reasons will not only ignore certain people but will attack them if they are told they are wrong.
IT'S ALL GOOD.
Maintain your path of compassion, inspired by universal love and in the spirit of loving protection and as you say in your blog-All are your uke's.
Regards.G.

dps
02-12-2011, 08:47 PM
Here I will say it again. Ron Ragusa Sensei has" IT". Honest, not that you will ever come here to find out. How could anyone in a tiny Aikido dojo in the Berkshires have it?
Well he does. He has IT and he has IT in the context of Aikido. With no competion or besting of others or making others wrong so he can be right.
Ignore this again because how can somebody from Aikido have IT?
Whatever!
Best
Mary

It is less embarrassing for an elite professional of Aikido to go to a stranger for help than go to someone of lesser stature or heaven forbid a hobbyist in Aikido.

It is an ego pride thing.

dps

phitruong
02-12-2011, 09:21 PM
Here I will say it again. Ron Ragusa Sensei has" IT". Honest, not that you will ever come here to find out. How could anyone in a tiny Aikido dojo in the Berkshires have it?
Well he does. He has IT and he has IT in the context of Aikido. With no competion or besting of others or making others wrong so he can be right.
Ignore this again because how can somebody from Aikido have IT?
Whatever!
Best
Mary

*warning thread rift*

is there a reason you feel the need to defend Ron? maybe he has and maybe has not. we are just shooting the breeze on the internet. personally, i don't question you or Ron whether you have or not. crossing hands in person is a different matter. me, i like the hand-on approach. until then, i wish you best in your aikido journey.

George S. Ledyard
02-12-2011, 09:35 PM
Here I will say it again. Ron Ragusa Sensei has" IT". Honest, not that you will ever come here to find out. How could anyone in a tiny Aikido dojo in the Berkshires have it?
Well he does. He has IT and he has IT in the context of Aikido. With no competion or besting of others or making others wrong so he can be right.
Ignore this again because how can somebody from Aikido have IT?
Whatever!
Best
Mary

Mary,
I haven't met you guys... I am not saying no one has it who is doing Aikido. I have not met you nor have I trained with you. I am certainly not saying you guys don't have it. It's quite possible you do. And if you do, it's more than likely you can explain it better than the Japanese teachers I have encountered.

If you guys have the skills I am talking about, then you already know how rare they are in general. There are all sorts of little pockets of great talent out there. My objection is that, often, these folks are not terribly prominent compared to far more famous and influential teachers who are. frankly, not terribly good.

A great example is Tom Read Sensei who has sat in Aracta, CA for decades developing a ridiculously sophisticated Aikido. Hardly anybody knows about him, yet he is as good as anyone I have ever been on the mat with. I am perfectly willing to believe that other folks are out there, just like that.

I know the tone of thee discussions often seems to disparage Aikido. I think Aikido is amazing. I love it, I eat it and sleep it. I have spent my entire adult life pursuing it. I want Aikido to be for everyone, what I experienced from my teacher. I want my own Aikido to be that good. But when I say most of the Aikido I see being done isn't what I want for my Aikido nor do I think that many years of training the way most folks currently train will get them to what I think is high level Aikido. The fact that I think the transmission in Aikido as a whole is broken doesn't at all mean I think that no one out there has great Aikido. It's just that it's fairly rare. And the folks that have IT, as you put it are not necessarily in a position to influence the larger community.

You are right that I am unlikely to come to your dojo to check things out... not because I have the least resistance to the idea, but rather, I have limited time, and limited money, and I have spent that developing a support network for my training. I've always been willing to try out new teachers, regardless of style or affiliation. But there are more people to check out, more teachers who are wonderful, that I'd like to support, than I can possibly do so.

Seriously, Mary, if I had the resources, I'd invite you guys to my dojo and we'd have you do a seminar. My problem is that I have a backlog of wonderful folks I'd like my students to see... That, coupled with the fact that I have tapped into certain people, like Howard Popkin Sensei, whom I have out regularly because he can help me and my students get where I want us to be, leaves me with about one, absolute max, two seminars a year in which I get to support other teachers from outside our existing circle.

The folks I do bring in I usually meet based on word of mouth. Someone tells me that so and so is great and I need to check the out. Although I will, if it's possible, attend a seminar that teacher might be doing, typically the expense is a bit much for traveling and training just on somebody's recommendation, so I try to bring that person in for a seminar. That way the "risk" is shared, so to speak. That's precisely how I got to know Howard Popkin Sensei... my friend started training with him and said he was awesome.

The Aiki Expos helped a lot on making great connections... I met some fabulous Aikido people like Chuck Clark and his son Aaron... I met some amazing folks from outside Aikido, like Toby Threadgill. There was a reason why Stan Pranin invited the particular non-Aikido folks he did. Each one was extremely high level and each had totally ridiculous "aiki" skills, in one form or another.

I can't believe that anyone thinks that any particular teacher, style or art has everything. The IP guys have high level IP but they don't even do Aikido. My only point is that Aikido would be better if the knowledge they have would be more common. If, as you say, you feel you guys have IT, whatever we mean by that, I certainly wouldn't argue with you that you don't, not without seeing you. But if you do have those kinds of skills, you can't be going about thinking they are common skills in our art. If you think that, you aren't getting out enough. On the other hand, if you really have a practice going that is that good, and once again, I am DEFINITELY not saying you don't, I think that you really should get out. Not for your training but to share what you are doing. There simply are not enough folks out there who are capable of taking the art in a better direction than it's been headed.

Many of the folks I know, whom I believe would be capable of making a difference, either don't wish to or don't know how to go about doing so. It doesn't matter if one is the "second coming" in Aikido if no one knows who they are.

In my own case, I have a lot of ideas and strong opinions, I am sure you've noticed... I think I have the ability to effect the art positively in a collective sense, not just on my own dojo level. But to do that, I have to have "access". Ten years ago, I was a not very well known person within my own organization and pretty much unknown outside it. I started using the internet to connect with people. I spent a lot of time writing and posting, responding to other folks writings, etc. Through that, I received an invitation to demo at the first Aiki Expo, which put me on the map with a huge community of folks I would probably never have met.

Through some of those folks I met other folks. I taught at a few places outside my own organization. I started putting some of my stuff on video and selling them on-line. I have now sold these videos all over the world. Most of my video business is repeat business. So not only have the videos generated much neede income but they have made it possible for me to reach out far beyond any range of actual face to face contact I might exepect to make over time.

At some point, and I mean after years and hundreds, if not thousands of hours, contributing to material on the net. After attending years of seminars and camps, working with people of all ranks and from all sorts of different groups. I started to develop a reputation. I am sure not everyone thinks it is a good reputation, but enough do that I teach moire and more seminars every year. I am developing blocks of instruction I offer at my own dojo and also outside my dojo, which are open to and attended by folks from beyond my own organization, even from outside the United States.

Anyway, my point is that, your posts feel a bit like you have some frustration with the fact that Ron, for instance, isn't recognized for having skills that these other teachers from outside Aikido are being recognized for, and you feel he does have them. I totally get that. I am the first one to say that a) American teachers of this art have a hard time establishing themselves compared to the Japanese teachers. b) any teacher who does not have the support of an organization behind him or her is even more likely to languish in obscurity, no matter how great they might be.

I think it is important to remember that five years ago or so. No one in the Aikido community had even heard of Mike Sigman, Dan Harden or Akuzawa. It's taken them a very long time to establish the fat that they have something to offer. Well, it's even harder for any given Aikido teacher to establish himself or herself as a recognized teacher. There are only 4 or 5 people who have the internal skills, are from outside our art, and are going out of their way to share them with the Aikido community. We can leave their various motivations for doing so out of the discussion...

But how many hundreds of just American teachers are there? Very few have the recognition it takes to be professional at it, really only a handful. The rest of the folks do something else to support themselves and use that to support their teaching. For someone not in an organization, lacking that support or the support of a major Shihan putting you forward, it's extremely difficult to get any recognition at all. And without recognition, no one knows you are there. And then, it doesn't matter how good you are, you don't have "access".

The only solution is to use the various tools available to develop that recognition. You guys are participating on the forums... I now know your names when I didn't a couple years ago. I think videos can be great put up on YouTube... just to get folks interested (although that has backfired for some folks when they put stuff up that wasn't very good). But I am taking you at your word that you guys have good stuff... so it's a matter of letting folks know that you do. In the end the real bottom line is getting face time. The Aiki Expos did that for me... I was treated totally differently after that experience, even by my own teacher, than I was before that. I continue to do things like attend the Bridge Seminars Ikeda Sensei is organizing, even when I am not teaching, because they allow me to meet and work wit folks I would not expect to encounter any other way. I train with Aikido folks, I train with non-Aikido folks. Doing this year after year has allowed me to establish myself as a recognized instructor, and that has given me "access' to a large enough community of Aikido folks that I feel I am starting to be able to make a difference. I am now traveling a lot of the time and also finding people coming from all over the world to events I do at my own school.

Anyway, I went on and on about this because I want you to understand that you could very well be correct that Ron has the "juice" so to speak. If so, it is all the more tragic that he isn't better known, that he isn't out there all over the place teaching because there aren't enough folks doing so who really are functioning at a high level. Most of what I see is either the use of movement to avoid an attack or application of a lot of physical power. Neither is "aiki".

It looks to me, based on your website, that Ron and I started Aikido at almost the same time. We both trained with students of the Founder. I have no reason to question you when you state he is very good at what he does. I hope we can meet and train together... you too. We are all serious Aikido people. That gives us more in common than anything we might have with folks from outside the art, no matter how good their "aiki" might be. Personally, I am committed to supporting any American teacher of this art who is trying to accomplish something better. We are not in conflict here about this, at least I don't think so, especially knowing the backgrounds you guys have.

Amassus
02-12-2011, 09:49 PM
Your story reminded me another similar one, but in this case the student's "poor attitude" alleged was in fact an attempt to preserve instructor's monopoly as the only legit aikido instruction provider in town.

Huh? How 'bout that.
That certainly wasn't the case in this town, plenty of instructors here :)

I guess ego will rear its ugly head whenever groups of people are involved. Including what this thread is about. (sharing knowledge, using knowledge etc.)

It intrigues me how the IP/IT stuff comes up in most threads these days. It has really become something of a phenomenon.

Dean.

Lorel Latorilla
02-12-2011, 09:56 PM
He is among good company. Aikiweb is getting to be so funny. It is all illusion. We have people on here who don't train in Aikido defining Aikido to people who have trained for decades. And those people are listening.
:)
The emperor really has no clothes.
Mary

It's ok Mary. Let them define it. It's all an illusion, it won't scratch at the truth you have.

Mary Eastland
02-12-2011, 10:01 PM
Okay, I am done ranting. Thanks George, that was very interesting. I am planning to attend Friday night at Bedford Hills. Ron and I don't get out to other seminars much but I am interested in seeing what you are doing with Aiki and connection.
Mary

dps
02-12-2011, 10:20 PM
So with his Bo style, he chose to treat the knowledge more like a koryu.


No George he does not.

He has made his art very public and treats it not at all like a koryu.

Does a koryu offer the following:

From the Aikibojitsu website;

http://www.aikibojitsu.com/RankingAndLicensing.html,

"Thus a minimum of 100 registered hours must be accrued to qualify for the black belt rank examination."

These hours can be accrued by;
Private Lessons,
Video series on DVD,
Distance Learning over the internet,
Seminars

Does a person whom purchases the DVDs from the website's book store or uses the distance learning have to sign an agreement not to share the information with anyone else.

Tenyu made a may have made a mistake in how he did what he did but not necessarily in teaching his own variation of another style.

dps

dps
02-12-2011, 10:27 PM
The points brought up in this thread RE integrity and permission to teach propriatry knowledge are excellent, but a lot of Aikido (and Koryu) people are attending seminars given by Dan Harden and Minoru Akuzawa, both of whom are teaching material based on teachings received from Daito Ryu groups. They may not have taken Keppan, but ,to the best of my knowledge, All Daito Ryu groups teach their members on the assumption that they will not teach non-members without permission and/or appropriate certification..

Akuzawa and Dan both have undeniable skills, but, in principle, how is what they are doing different from Tenyu is doing? Of course if they have received the appropriate license/permission, this is a non-issue, but it's probably worth clarifying.


If so what does that say about the integrity of those who go to Dan and Akuzawa or support what they are doing but not wanting anyone to go to or support what Tenyu is doing?

dps

George S. Ledyard
02-13-2011, 02:11 AM
Okay, I am done ranting. Thanks George, that was very interesting. I am planning to attend Friday night at Bedford Hills. Ron and I don't get out to other seminars much but I am interested in seeing what you are doing with Aiki and connection.
Mary

Wow! That's great. I had no idea it was close enough for you to get to without major inconvenience. It will be fun... Can Ron come too or is he tied up> I'd love to meet him sometime as well.

I'll look forward to seeing you... thanks for letting me know. Does Marc know you'll be there? Anyway, see you then!
- George

graham christian
02-13-2011, 07:45 AM
Wow! That's great. I had no idea it was close enough for you to get to without major inconvenience. It will be fun... Can Ron come too or is he tied up> I'd love to meet him sometime as well.

I'll look forward to seeing you... thanks for letting me know. Does Marc know you'll be there? Anyway, see you then!
- George

Congratulations George. It's a pleasure to witness good endings and progress.
I feel this scene about Tenyu is maybe an issue to some but in the great scheme of things it's more of a non issue. As you say often Karma. If Tenyu breaks the rules, ie: uses or portrays his art in a way that gives the impression he is an Aikibojitsu practitioner he will no doubt suffer the consequences.

If he is, as it seems, far too short of experience to teach then life has a way of kicking you in the teeth. I'm sure you've met many who go around saying they are this and that and unerringly bump into someone who gives them lets say 'a lesson' they won't forget.
If he happens to be excellent then he has plenty of work to do and eventually people will be surprised and he will have learned much. I find anyone who is misguided as to their ability is not really a danger to others but only to themselves on the whole and thus they learn the hard way.

May I say while I'm here I loved your reply to Mary as it also helped me with my view on Ip and indeed those of you who use it.

Up to now I have held the view it's all in Aikido anyway and for me and some others it is. However for many it appears it is missing from their particular curriculum and so they have a right to seek it wherever they find it.

In your reply to Mary I finally realized that it wasn't a case of being led into other arts as superior to Aikido. I thought it was a case of people being led away from what I could see they loved doing. This indeed was my misconception. So thank you for that.

When I think about it it's no different from what O'Sensei did himself, if he wanted to learn some aspect or other he went out and did so.

On this matter my cup is now empty.

Regards. G.

George S. Ledyard
02-13-2011, 11:46 AM
Up to now I have held the view it's all in Aikido anyway and for me and some others it is. However for many it appears it is missing from their particular curriculum and so they have a right to seek it wherever they find it.

In your reply to Mary I finally realized that it wasn't a case of being led into other arts as superior to Aikido. I thought it was a case of people being led away from what I could see they loved doing. This indeed was my misconception. So thank you for that.

When I think about it it's no different from what O'Sensei did himself, if he wanted to learn some aspect or other he went out and did so.

On this matter my cup is now empty.

Regards. G.

Hi Graham,
Your worries about people being led away fro Aikido are not misplaced... I have a number of good friends who have quit because they couldn't find what they wanted in the art and didn't feel they could find a way to train to get it.

This is most likely to happen when the person involved really sees himself or herself as a martial artist, i.e. the Aikido as Budo side of things is important to them. In may ways Aikido has become the home for all those folks who, if they weren't doing Aikido, wouldn't be doing martial arts at all.

I don't know how it is i Britain, but the MMA world has virtually siphoned off the young men from traditional arts. Aikido memberships are down all over here and I have heard from teachers like Doran Sensei who teach internationally that the same is true in Europe. Twenty-something males provide the bulk of the new students in the martial arts. In Aikido you see the average age increasing and you see the proportion of women growing steadily. This changes the art...

Folks now typically come into my dojo already past the age when they can train crazy hard like we did when we started. Their bodies are already "past peak". Women, in general, and please everyone, don't take this wrong, usually have a different set of concerns regarding their training. And without doubt their smaller stature and reduced just plain muscular strength changes how they need to train too.

This is not my imagination... I have talked to Ikeda Sensei about it. He says it is almost impossible to find dojos where folks can train hard the way we did when we were young.

Getting Aikido back on track is important for a number of reasons. First of all, we shouldn't be losing people because they correctly feel that Aikido isn't good martial arts. In all honesty, how many dojos would there be if the folks running the dojos had to actually be able to do their stuff if a martial artist from man other style came through the door and wanted a challenge?

For reasons that are not quite clear to me, young men want to fight these days. An art in which so many dojos and so many practitioners are clearly doing some sort of dance with little content cannot attract these people. In O-Sensei's time, it was the martial stuff that served as "the hook". Young men came to train because they wanted to be able to do what they saw the Founder do, what the senior Shihan could do. Now, in most dojos, a young man with a few years of decent martial arts training often knows that he could take the Chief Instructor any time he chose. Everyone else knows too, and it creates an uncomfortable situation until he decides to leave and then everybody is happy again.

So, in order for Aikido to grow, we need to get our house in order with regards to making Aikido a respectable martial art again. Further, we have to do this while working with older, smaller stature students.

As far as I can see, this requires a great deal of attention on the issue of getting "aiki" into Aikido. Big boys can always do the "bop and torque" version of the art. Most older people can't take the ukemi and most women simply aren't strong enough to muscle folks that way. The solution is to make the Aikido being taught better. Since, as we've discussed, I think that most Aikido around is either poor Aikido or great Aikido poorly conveyed, I think teachers need to look around for any source of better information.

This is coming totally from my own personal experience. Saotome Sensei is still the best Aikido teacher I have ever put my hands on. There are others whom I think are extraordinary as well... I love Imaizumi Sensei, Endo Sensei, I'd have died to train with Yamaguchi when he was alive. The are people like Mary Heiny and Tom Read who represent top level Aikido. No one of any of these folks, "has it all" although for most folks it would be a life's work to be as good as any one of them.

But Saotome Sensei still represents the gold standard in my own personal experience. He has been over here for going on 40 years. I am sure he has done his level best to teach us to understand what he is doing. Yet, in my personal opinion, most of us didn't get it without help. That would include Ikeda Sensei. It was there all along but the methodology that worked for Sensei training in small groups on a daily basis with the Founder. being on the mat 6 - 8 hours a day, did not work for us, training in larger groups, daily for a couple of hours.

So, the various people doing the IP skills, the wonderful teachers of aikijutsu we mention here, and the systema folks each offer far better instruction on certain targeted areas than what I have ever experienced in Aikido. These are all important ares for us to figure out so that Aikido can be better. "Aiki" is what lets a small woman drop me to the ground at 250 lbs. It is what keeps me from effective use of my own power when attacking someone else. Knowledge of how other martial systems work is crucial for fixing the whole lack of martial effectiveness that plagues Aikido. In the old days you could even do Aikido unless yo had a substantial martial background. Now, I will teach a seminar and ask how many people have done another martial art and maybe ten percent raise their hands. And few of them had very extensive experience.

I talk about fixing the martial side of the art but I don't see this as different from fixing the spiritual side. Aikido, as an investigation into the nature of reality and a form of personal transformation, must involve the discovery through training of the essential principles that govern reality. "Wishful thinking" Aikido lacks the grounding in reality required. It might be fun, it might be a great way to get in shape, meet people, have a sense of community, etc But as spiritual practice, it's nothing very deep or broad.

The martial paradigm is what makes Aikido as a trans-formative practice unique. It is the martial paradigm that provides the feedback about what one does and does not understand. It is precisely what keeps you from going off into la la land. Once we lose that sense of martial reality, no one has any idea any more what they know and do not know. This is precisely what I find myself focusing on in many of my seminars... how to train so that that training provides a clear reflection of what you understand and how to deepen that knowledge. The way many folks currently train, they have no real idea if they can do what they think they can do.

Anyway, looking around for help is nothing new to folks who trained with Saotome Sensei. From day one he encouraged us to get as much experience as possible. I have never, ever heard him tell someone they shouldn't do some particular outside training. I think this is reflective of an essential confidence in his own ability and in the depth of Aikido. He never worried about you finding something else that you'd leave Aikido for. As far as Sensei is concerned, it potentially has it all. But the people from his generation trained outside the art, many extensively, and he told us to do the same.

This is also an issue for the folks doing Aikido today. We had that discussion about "is two times a week enough" in which I pissed off a bunch of folks by saying it wasn't. In a world in which folks can't even get to Aikido enough to get past a basic level of practice, training i other arts is a moot point. They can't train enough on just one art... forget doing additional training. This too will effect the future development of Aikido. The future teachers are in the pipeline right now. You have but to look around. If they can't find a way to exceed or at least match the experience of the generation that went before, more knowledge will be lost and Aikido will continue to degenerate.

So, for me, I think that we as teachers have an obligation to be the best we can be. Regular students can do what they want but teachers are OBLIGATED to train and better themselves. With folks from outside who are making themselves available to help us do that, it's crazy not to take advantage of this fact. Ten years agio there simply was not this kind of thing easily accessible. You would have had to work really hard to find some of it and others were simply not available at all. Now we are like kids in the candy store. If I'd had this kind of stuff available when I was young. I think I could have been giving the best Aikido folks out there a run for their money. But I didn't get this assistance until I was way past peak in terms of my ability to train hard physically. But I can see how it's helping my students. They really are decades ahead of where I was at the same time. And none of them have quite Aikido. They seem to get more committed and more excited as they gain more knowledge.

kewms
02-13-2011, 12:39 PM
Women, in general, and please everyone, don't take this wrong, usually have a different set of concerns regarding their training. And without doubt their smaller stature and reduced just plain muscular strength changes how they need to train too.

Which is both good and bad, IMO. In my experience, women seem to be more open to the idea that good aikido offers alternatives to the "bop and torque" approach. Often, that's why we came to aikido in the first place, and certainly women come in with less "strong is good" conditioning than men do.

The downside of which is that sometimes women go too far to the other extreme, and the martial content is lost.

Katherine

graham christian
02-13-2011, 01:23 PM
Hi George.
Thank you, that's quite a reply. I cannot disagree with anything you say in it.

As to the memberships being down I don't know but I assume that must be the case over here. I have visited some other dojos out of curiosity and where for instance one was a bit airy fairy yet had quite a number there, the other also had quite a number and was more martial if thats the right word.

The martial one was from my view much better in comparison but was run by a very descent teacher, very old school, and yet I could see that the training the students were doing probably was nowhere near how he would have been trained. Having said that it was very disciplined as though he had geared it to the modern youth. His name was Kanetsuka Sensei.

The reasons for dropped numbers would probably be worthy of a thread in itself and probably has been but as I have said in past posts that the answer lies with where you are and what you yourself are doing I also see that times have changed.

People are into image and thus follow what the latest trend is and whats shown on t.v. etc. and that must be one factor. Then there is the fact that in this day and age the youth are in a drug culture to a greater degree than the past, a computer age, a follow the sport that could bring fame and money age, and probably many other factors too.

On the draw being the super hard training to be like O'Sensei and that equating with martial in the samurai sense I'm not convinced that is or was the main attraction.

For me and the others I started with that wasn't what attracted us. My friend who still trains with me now at the time was a dedicated boxer, a very good one at that. The training they did and boxers still do today would put many a martial arts to shame. However, I can still hear him now, when we were discussing our lives and where we were going, saying 'look, I'm good at this and I can fight and take blows and find it's easy to hurt people but that can't be IT.' It was the fact that Aikido offered more than that as to why we were attracted to it.

We had no illusions though, we expected to go through hard training, we expected to learn the harsh discipline, we expected to learn the samurai martial way in order to get through to what we saw this little old man could do. We could see even then he had that quality of Harmony and actually cared for his opponent in a martial way. That was our hook.

I still believe that's what other in the wide public equate Aikido as, well until Seagal came along anyway. I see him as an excellent exponent of the art but feel his films give the wrong impression, but maybe that's just me.

However, if I'm correct in my view then when more people have learned the 'missing' elements and how to teach it better and show it better then people will see the difference Aikido offers.

Let me run this by you as a thought. If someone was to make a movie or even a series on t.v. where the 'hero' was a hard training Aikidoka of immense skill and sorted out the bad guys with such ease and skill and yet never maimed or killed anyone. This hero would always explain the way to those in need.

So it becomes a popular series and attracts many to investigate Aikido. How many do you know who could show this and demonstrate it.? How many are ready?

I may be wrong in my views but if the scene is as you say then I do agree that it needs more teachers teaching in a better way.

Regards.G.

George S. Ledyard
02-13-2011, 02:17 PM
On the draw being the super hard training to be like O'Sensei and that equating with martial in the samurai sense I'm not convinced that is or was the main attraction.

I am pretty sure it was in Japan with O-Sensei. Most of the deshi admit to practically dozing through his spiritual stuff while waiting to get back to the good stuff.

For me and the others I started with that wasn't what attracted us. My friend who still trains with me now at the time was a dedicated boxer, a very good one at that. The training they did and boxers still do today would put many a martial arts to shame. However, I can still hear him now, when we were discussing our lives and where we were going, saying 'look, I'm good at this and I can fight and take blows and find it's easy to hurt people but that can't be IT.' It was the fact that Aikido offered more than that as to why we were attracted to it.

I think we are "of an age"... When I started Aikido Viet Nam had just ended. Most of us had been actively anti-war and political. I think the non-violent philosophy of the Founder as we understood it was a big draw. In some ways we were a bit naive but I really think that the perceived spiritual component of Aikido was the major factor in spreading Aikido.

We had no illusions though, we expected to go through hard training, we expected to learn the harsh discipline, we expected to learn the samurai martial way in order to get through to what we saw this little old man could do. We could see even then he had that quality of Harmony and actually cared for his opponent in a martial way. That was our hook.

I think you're right... it was for me and most of the folks I started with...

I still believe that's what other in the wide public equate Aikido as, well until Seagal came along anyway. I see him as an excellent exponent of the art but feel his films give the wrong impression, but maybe that's just me.

You know, if you talk to anyone who is familiar with his films, the single favorite scene in all his movies was the original dojo scene in Above the Law. It was the only scene in any of his movies in which Aikido was shown simply as Aikido. Matsuoka Sensei's ukemi was stunning and there was a flavor of something running deeper than just fighting. It is too bad that the folks making these movies didn't understand that.

However, if I'm correct in my view then when more people have learned the 'missing' elements and how to teach it better and show it better then people will see the difference Aikido offers.


I think this is the hope for the art in the long run. We might not have a huge number of newbies but we have a huge community of folks who have been training for years and years. It would only take a few years of work to get folks doing their Aikido in a completely different way. There's the interest... just look at how folks flock to train with someone like Ikeda Sensei. They just don't quite understand it enough to retool their training to produce the change they want in their own skills. That's why it is so important that, as some folks do start to figure it out, they need to be immediately turning around and passing that knowledge on. Escpecially to the instructors out there.

When I work with some up and coming young student, I am making an investment that may take years to develop. And not until they start teaching will that pay off by positively influencing the larger community. But when I can pass something on to an instructor or someone who actually runs a dojo, I am almost immediately influencing thirty or forty people. Do that enough times and things really start to shift.

Let me run this by you as a thought. If someone was to make a movie or even a series on t.v. where the 'hero' was a hard training Aikidoka of immense skill and sorted out the bad guys with such ease and skill and yet never maimed or killed anyone. This hero would always explain the way to those in need.

So it becomes a popular series and attracts many to investigate Aikido. How many do you know who could show this and demonstrate it.? How many are ready?

I have no doubt that a show like that would actually appeal. It could do for Aikido what Kung Fu did for the martial arts. Folks loved the philosophy, teachers talked about the show in class. It was amazing at the time how influential the show was. But it was the Viet Nam era and things were different. I was studying in Taiwan at the time and my Chinese friends didn't actually like the show... too much talking, not enough fighting, and they hated the slo mo fighting depictions. I think nowadays the martial arts depicted would have to be far better quality. Folks are far more sophisticated today than they were then. But I think a show like that would give a huge boost to Aikido's popularity.

graham christian
02-13-2011, 02:55 PM
Thank you George. Keep up the good work. Don't get embarassed but maybe you are already inspirational to some.

Regards. G.

lbb
02-13-2011, 04:21 PM
That does remind me of that religious saying about 'don't judge lest you be judged' though. Or even people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

Graham, have you ever heard the saying, "You have the right to your own opinion, but you don't have the right to your own facts"?

Howard Popkin
02-13-2011, 04:57 PM
Graham,

Ledyard Sensei is inspirational to most people he meets.

When I met him he was a giant of a man, now he is 1/3 less then he was. Even at his biggest, his Aikido was amongst the softest technique I had felt from ANY Aikido person.

People can't imagine that a big guy can be that fast AND soft.

That just the first reason.

Reason #2 -

He is a perpetual white belt !!!!! Many of his student have excelled at other martial arts and Ledyard Sensei always invites them back and puts on his white belt or whatever else is necessary to empty his cup. For someone with his level of experience, that is amazing.

Reason #3 Ledyard Sensei might be one of the nicest people on the planet

I could go on for a very long time, but I do't have to. Everyone who knows Ledyard Sensei knows what I am talking about.

Its an honor to call him my friend.

Howard

Tenyu
02-13-2011, 05:57 PM
Addressing a quote earlier in the thread:

In the good old days, issues like this in a martial context could be life & death issues

One of the first topics in Aikido Aikibojitsu and the Structure of Natural Law is the concept of primal fear, fear of the absolute unknown and death itself. I have had three involuntary life and death situations in my life. The first one I'll talk about because it was my first one. I was around 12 years old, in seventh grade here in the states, when I caught an unknown illness. For one whole month I literally threw up everything I ate usually within five minutes. I was still going to school and I would usually throw up walking between classes right in the middle of the hallway. I would dry heave after any activity in gym class. My teacher was claiming I was faking it for a couple weeks until my body really starting showing signs. She let me out as long as I took an "F" grade, I was a straight A student, not important but slightly amusing to note. By then the prolonged flu idea had disappeared and the doctors were telling us they had no idea what it could be. I distinctly remember none of them acted as if they really cared all that much not being able to diagnose me. I felt bad for my mother seeing her worry in a way I never saw before. I became near bed-ridden, having to throw up in a bowl for not making it to the bathroom in time. I lost almost 20lbs that month, by the fourth week I had to come to grips that this was it, I wouldn't last much longer. I surprised myself how quickly I came to peace with it, it only took a few hours of imagining death before I got the picture. I was probably wrong about the picture but it was sufficient for my curiosity. The only pain I felt afterwards was the pain I knew my mother and brother would feel after I was gone. Within a few days of accepting death I started a gradual recovery, where I would be able to hold down maybe 10% of what I ate better than the near 0% I was at until about a month later I completely stopped throwing up. In a few months I was back to a healthy weight.

After I accepted death there was nothing grave about being on a death bed, which was a cot in the living room. I joked around a lot, had fun, and really enjoyed the time with my family. It was not motivated, even though I was conscious to make sure my family didn't feel uncomfortable about the probabilities of my future. I've rarely thought about the experience but I think it had a lot of impact on me in the sense I never really feared death afterwards. Resist death and you resist life, resist uke and you resist Aikido. Resist absolute decontracted power and you resist absolute contracted power. Much of the fighting, anger, jealousy and destruction we see in the world can be attributed to this ever present yet rarely acknowledged primal fear that prevent people from becoming a healthy nage.

In my early 20's I voluntarily put myself in a life and death situation almost every day for about a year and came out every time without a scratch. It's not a big deal to me but any notion I haven't put myself ‘to the test' can be laid to rest. I'll reserve to tell this story in person because I'd rather not share it publicly.

Graham and David, I appreciate the supportive comments you've both made throughout the thread.

George S. Ledyard
02-13-2011, 08:58 PM
Graham,

Ledyard Sensei is inspirational to most people he meets.

When I met him he was a giant of a man, now he is 1/3 less then he was. Even at his biggest, his Aikido was amongst the softest technique I had felt from ANY Aikido person.

People can't imagine that a big guy can be that fast AND soft.

That just the first reason.

Reason #2 -

He is a perpetual white belt !!!!! Many of his student have excelled at other martial arts and Ledyard Sensei always invites them back and puts on his white belt or whatever else is necessary to empty his cup. For someone with his level of experience, that is amazing.

Reason #3 Ledyard Sensei might be one of the nicest people on the planet

I could go on for a very long time, but I do't have to. Everyone who knows Ledyard Sensei knows what I am talking about.

Its an honor to call him my friend.

Howard

Howie, How can I strike fear into the hearts of my enemies if you go around telling folks how nice I am?

Tenyu
02-13-2011, 09:21 PM
Here's the aerial tracking image of the Tengu Short Form's implicit line which appeared in my mind out of nowhere as I was falling asleep one night. I had never seen it before, but I got out of bed, went outside, and the form came out perfectly on its own. I did it about ten times to make sure I wasn't dreaming. :)

http://www.hollygroverecords.com/TenguShortForm.jpg

Mike Sigman
02-13-2011, 09:25 PM
I think it is important to remember that five years ago or so. No one in the Aikido community had even heard of Mike Sigman, Dan Harden or Akuzawa. It's taken them a very long time to establish the fat that they have something to offer. Don't take this as serious conversation, George, because it's simply an observation. If you take a look at Mark Reeder and Ron Meyer's book Center you'll see that I'm mentioned and did a review of the book. Not to mention that I also did Aikido, although I don't make any claims about Aikido because as I learned what internal strength was and what its relationship to Aikido was, I realized that those 7+ years of Aikido I spent really didn't teach me anything about real Aikido but about something else.

Having said that, I think a lot of these frank discussions are good, but IMO there should be more and deeper discussions with people *inside* Aikido like Saotome Sensei, Ikeda, and others of the shihans from Aikikai, etc. My *impression*, now that I know the lay of the land better, is that there are a lot of nuggets of information within the knowledge of people like Yamada Yoshimitsu and others if they can be persuaded to discuss things.... and their viewpoints would help a lot in terms of the current developments in Aikido. Outsiders are good for foot-in-the-door stuff, but ultimately Ueshiba's Aikido is going to have to be examined more from the inside, once the basics are understood.

2 cents.

Mike Sigman

George S. Ledyard
02-13-2011, 09:38 PM
Don't take this as serious conversation, George, because it's simply an observation. If you take a look at Mark Reeder and Ron Meyer's book Center you'll see that I'm mentioned and did a review of the book.

Hi Mike, I wasn't being literal... I knew you worked with Mark years ago. He was one of the first people I heard mention you. He and I go back before the flood, so to speak. However Mark is another great largely undiscovered gem of Aikido. Not many folks have trained with him and more's the pity. You have to actually go train at the Boulder Aikikai to have that pleasure.

Janet Rosen
02-13-2011, 09:56 PM
However Mark is another great largely undiscovered gem of Aikido. Not many folks have trained with him and more's the pity. You have to actually go train at the Boulder Aikikai to have that pleasure.

Over the yrs I've found there seem to be more than a few folks here and there just like that - maybe not a chief instructor or maybe in a quiet backwater, but amazing folks to get on the mat with.

graham christian
02-13-2011, 11:55 PM
Graham, have you ever heard the saying, "You have the right to your own opinion, but you don't have the right to your own facts"?

Mary, no, never heard that one before.

However, it looks quite zen, you can contemplate it both ways around. Interesting. (is that an opinion or a fact?)

Regards. G.

Demetrio Cereijo
02-14-2011, 03:03 AM
Howie, How can I strike fear into the hearts of my enemies if you go around telling folks how nice I am?

Howie saying you're a nice guy is what puts fear in the hearts of your enemies. :)

SeiserL
02-14-2011, 05:28 AM
Ledyard Sensei is inspirational to most people he meets.

Total agreement,

lbb
02-14-2011, 07:43 AM
Mary, no, never heard that one before.

However, it looks quite zen, you can contemplate it both ways around. Interesting. (is that an opinion or a fact?)

Clearly it's an opinion, and clearly it's a Graham-flavored opinion, naturally :D You seem like a kind soul, in general, but I think you do have a tendency to over-mystify things -- to see all kinds of mysterious meanings and layers where they may not exist. The statement isn't Zen, isn't a Buddhist teaching of any flavor, and really is quite the opposite of a Zen koan. It is, if anything, anti-mystery, or at least anti-obfuscation. There is a difference between opinion and facts, and it's a big mistake to confuse the two.

In this thread, you've been advocating a fair and even-handed approach, and that's all good; however, just because your approach is fair and even-handed doesn't mean that the facts you discover will weigh equally on both sides. When that happens, honesty demands that you recognize that the facts favor one side. If you refuse to do so, you're no longer being even-handed, you're just creating false equivalences.

Toby Threadgill
02-14-2011, 08:53 AM
Clearly it's an opinion, and clearly it's a Graham-flavored opinion, naturally :D You seem like a kind soul, in general, but I think you do have a tendency to over-mystify things -- to see all kinds of mysterious meanings and layers where they may not exist. The statement isn't Zen, isn't a Buddhist teaching of any flavor, and really is quite the opposite of a Zen koan. It is, if anything, anti-mystery, or at least anti-obfuscation. There is a difference between opinion and facts, and it's a big mistake to confuse the two.

In this thread, you've been advocating a fair and even-handed approach, and that's all good; however, just because your approach is fair and even-handed doesn't mean that the facts you discover will weigh equally on both sides. When that happens, honesty demands that you recognize that the facts favor one side. If you refuse to do so, you're no longer being even-handed, you're just creating false equivalences.

Amen, Mary....

George S. Ledyard
02-14-2011, 10:07 AM
Clearly it's an opinion, and clearly it's a Graham-flavored opinion, naturally :D You seem like a kind soul, in general, but I think you do have a tendency to over-mystify things -- to see all kinds of mysterious meanings and layers where they may not exist. The statement isn't Zen, isn't a Buddhist teaching of any flavor, and really is quite the opposite of a Zen koan. It is, if anything, anti-mystery, or at least anti-obfuscation. There is a difference between opinion and facts, and it's a big mistake to confuse the two.

In this thread, you've been advocating a fair and even-handed approach, and that's all good; however, just because your approach is fair and even-handed doesn't mean that the facts you discover will weigh equally on both sides. When that happens, honesty demands that you recognize that the facts favor one side. If you refuse to do so, you're no longer being even-handed, you're just creating false equivalences.

Mary, What I love about you is that you are willing to get on these forums and "mix it up" with the boys. Most of the women I know, and a number if them would be wonderful contributors here, simply flee when they see how much "in your face posting" there is here. You just go to the center, dish it out with the best of them and hold your own. Anyway, thanks for putting up with the boys...

Mark Freeman
02-14-2011, 10:28 AM
Mary, What I love about you is that you are willing to get on these forums and "mix it up" with the boys. Most of the women I know, and a number if them would be wonderful contributors here, simply flee when they see how much "in your face posting" there is here. You just go to the center, dish it out with the best of them and hold your own. Anyway, thanks for putting up with the boys...

Hi George,

Isn't that just a little bit sexist? The 'little lady' is able to hold her own intellectually with the boys, wow, I think I just slipped back to the early 20th century:o I normally admire your postings, but that one smacks of a pat on the head for the fiesty young lass.

Mary what do you think, am I being too sensitive on behalf of the sistas or are you happy to be held up as unusual for one of your gender to be mentally tough?

regards,

Mark
p.s. I'm sure it wasn't meant as being patronising but you can't be too careful these days, can you?

dps
02-14-2011, 10:34 AM
Graham,

Ledyard Sensei is inspirational to most people he meets.

When I met him he was a giant of a man, now he is 1/3 less then he was. Even at his biggest, his Aikido was amongst the softest technique I had felt from ANY Aikido person.

People can't imagine that a big guy can be that fast AND soft.

That just the first reason.

Reason #2 -

He is a perpetual white belt !!!!! Many of his student have excelled at other martial arts and Ledyard Sensei always invites them back and puts on his white belt or whatever else is necessary to empty his cup. For someone with his level of experience, that is amazing.

Reason #3 Ledyard Sensei might be one of the nicest people on the planet

I could go on for a very long time, but I do't have to. Everyone who knows Ledyard Sensei knows what I am talking about.

Its an honor to call him my friend.

Howard

All well and good but it does not make him right.

dps

kewms
02-14-2011, 10:36 AM
Hi George,

Isn't that just a little bit sexist? The 'little lady' is able to hold her own intellectually with the boys, wow, I think I just slipped back to the early 20th century:o I normally admire your postings, but that one smacks of a pat on the head for the fiesty young lass.

Mary what do you think, am I being too sensitive on behalf of the sistas or are you happy to be held up as unusual for one of your gender to be mentally tough?


It would be sexist to say that women aren't mentally tough, but that wasn't the statement. Rather, it was observed that not many women post here, and particularly not in the more argumentative threads. That seems to me to be simply a statement of fact.

Katherine

DH
02-14-2011, 10:45 AM
Hi George,

Isn't that just a little bit sexist? The 'little lady' is able to hold her own intellectually with the boys, wow, I think I just slipped back to the early 20th century:o I normally admire your postings, but that one smacks of a pat on the head for the fiesty young lass.

Mary what do you think, am I being too sensitive on behalf of the sistas or are you happy to be held up as unusual for one of your gender to be mentally tough?

regards,

Mark
p.s. I'm sure it wasn't meant as being patronising but you can't be too careful these days, can you?
I dunno...why can't it mean superior? Or ...wise in "opting out?"
I have trained with a bunch of women. I have a woman friend who trains here and reads all this..er...stuff. She equates much of the discussion here sometimes to boy's playing cowboys and indians..this time in skirts and wooden swords. She sees too much ego and not enough real listening.

Women and men are often different in how they approach things. I think it's delightful, and makes the world go round! If that makes me sexists, so be it. Tough charge to make against me when my Mom was one of the first executive glass ceiling breakers in the 60's and 38 of the executive's she trained that were placed in office above her...later supported her fight against the company (against their own best interests) and decades later came from all over the country to attend her funeral.
Cheers
Dan

George S. Ledyard
02-14-2011, 10:53 AM
Hi George,

Isn't that just a little bit sexist? The 'little lady' is able to hold her own intellectually with the boys, wow, I think I just slipped back to the early 20th century:o I normally admire your postings, but that one smacks of a pat on the head for the fiesty young lass.

Mary what do you think, am I being too sensitive on behalf of the sistas or are you happy to be held up as unusual for one of your gender to be mentally tough?

regards,

Mark
p.s. I'm sure it wasn't meant as being patronising but you can't be too careful these days, can you?

You'll notice that I said that most of my female friends. many of whom would make wonderful contributions here. won't do so because of the level of vituperation. As far as I am concerned, that's pretty much a fact. One of my friends who runs a dojo looked at the posts the other day and said she couldn't believe that amount of what she called "mud slinging". She has no interest in participating yet she would actually be wonderful to have posting.

How many women do you see here? Not many proportionally. While most of my senior male friends won't post either, for the same basic reasons... they feel it takes too much time to wade through all the BS just to get to the good stuff, if you look, there are at least a few senior men who post and NO really senior women. Where as you will find Henry Ellis, a Chuck Clark, a Toby Threadgill or Howard Popkin posting here, you will nowhere find a Mary Heiny, Linda Holiday, Pat Hendricks, Kayla Feder, etc. That's all I meant.

It's not meant to be patronizing and in no way means that I think it's nice that some "little woman" can keep up with the guys. Quite the opposite. I appreciate that a woman is willing to put up with the often "low tone" of the discussions and not only not leave but dish it out when she feels like it. The fact that most women have no time for the kinds of shenanigans that go on in the forums is our loss, not their gain, as far as I am concerned. This stuff can be such a boys club a lot of the time. It's only recently that we have had the number of women posting that we do... it used to be worse. It would be great if some really senior women could be persuaded to post but none of the ones I am friends with want any part of the aggressive back and forth that goes on. I know for a fact that a number of them read these discussions occasionally but they won't post.

So, yes, I am happy when the some of the women don't get put off and will participate in the give and take and not just shake their heads and go away thinking "Boys, boys. boys..."

DH
02-14-2011, 11:01 AM
You'll notice that I said that most of my female friends. many of whom would make wonderful contributions here. won't do so because of the level of vituperation. As far as I am concerned, that's pretty much a fact. One of my friends who runs a dojo looked at the posts the other day and said she couldn't believe that amount of what she called "mud slinging". She has no interest in participating yet she would actually be wonderful to have posting.

How many women do you see here? Not many proportionally. While most of my senior male friends won't post either, for the same basic reasons... they feel it takes too much time to wade through all the BS just to get to the good stuff, if you look, there are at least a few senior men who post and NO really senior women. Where as you will find Henry Ellis, a Chuck Clark, a Toby Threadgill or Howard Popkin posting here, you will nowhere find a Mary Heiny, Linda Holiday, Pat Hendricks, Kayla Feder, etc. That's all I meant.

It's not meant to be patronizing and in no way means that I think it's nice that some "little woman" can keep up with the guys. Quite the opposite. I appreciate that a woman is willing to put up with the often "low tone" of the discussions and not only not leave but dish it out when she feels like it. The fact that most women have no time for the kinds of shenanigans that go on in the forums is our loss, not their gain, as far as I am concerned. This stuff can be such a boys club a lot of the time. It's only recently that we have had the number of women posting that we do... it used to be worse. It would be great if some really senior women could be persuaded to post but none of the ones I am friends with want any part of the aggressive back and forth that goes on. I know for a fact that a number of them read these discussions occasionally but they won't post.

So, yes, I am happy when the some of the women don't get put off and will participate in the give and take and not just shake their heads and go away thinking "Boys, boys. boys..."

And there ya go....Although you will find a fair number of men who will not post either.

Janet Rosen
02-14-2011, 11:12 AM
It's not a matter of toughness, at least not as I define it; it's being practical:
I say my piece to the best of my ability to articulate it and don't see any point in repeating it over and over just to read my own words while deluding myself that the sheer repetition is actually going to change anybody else's mind.
OTOH I don't stay silent in the face of what I find to be absolute BS or a descent into verbal abuse and will continue to write words ask ing for civility to be maintained, just as I did with my voice and body when doing street patrols as a younger woman.

Howard Popkin
02-14-2011, 11:46 AM
All well and good but it does not make him right.

dps

Let's bottom line this discussion....

4th kyu in two systems = novice

REALLY good 4th kyu = really good novice

Genius 4th kyu = really smart novice

Mr. Hamaki may very well be a genius, but he is a novice at martial arts. No offense intended, just fact.

Howard

Keith Larman
02-14-2011, 11:54 AM
If so what does that say about the integrity of those who go to Dan and Akuzawa or support what they are doing but not wanting anyone to go to or support what Tenyu is doing?

dps

All right, David, since you seem to not want to let this go, I'll give it a stab.

First off, I can't speak too authoritatively on Aunkai -- I've never been to a seminar. I can, however, comment on their videos as I actually spent the cash to take a look after spending some time with some people who had gone to a number of seminars. So my understanding is quite incomplete wrt to Aunkai. So grain of salt and all that.

I have attended seminars by Dan H (as well as Mike S although Mike doesn't appear to cause you any angst).

WRT to Ark and Dan, neither is teaching "martial arts" in those seminars. They're certainly not teaching "Daito Ryu". Nor are they teaching a weird approximation of daito ryu. Best I can tell they're teaching about their understanding of Aiki. As well as exercises/routines/etc on how to build those skills as well as the physical body in order to do those things. I learned no techniques in the sense of something like "katatedori nikyo". I learned no strategy. I learned no martial philosophy.

Daito ryu, Aikido, and most arts of any substance are, IMHO, based on some of the things Dan, Ark, and others are teaching. And without those things I think Aikido and Daito Ryu lose some of their power. However, they are not *the* art. The art is vastly larger, a vast curriculum of techniques, philosophies, and approaches.

To contrast, if we assume that Toby Threadgill's art contains aiki as well then Dan and Ark are teaching things that are part of the base of his beloved TSYR. But you wouldn't say Dan is teaching TSYR. Neither are they teaching Daito Ryu. They are also *not* teaching Aikido, not by any stretch.

I wish I remember where I read it, but Ellis Amdur wrote something I thought was quite profound. He compared Aiki with a fine brandy. Without a vessel to carry it all you have is all over the floor. That's one reason I am somewhat skeptical of those who abandon everything in favor of "pure" aiki skills. That's cool, I suppose, if that's what you want. But for me I see it as part of the toolkit/foundation that I use to build/inform my movement and express my art. But it, itself, is not the art. Far from it.

It is about building a "budo body". I like that quote (from Dan for a proper attribution).

Let me contrast that to seminars I've been lucky enough to attend by someone like Toby Threadgill. Toby will compare empty hand movements to those done with tanto and with the ken. He'll show some exercises with some degree of explanation. He will tie all that together. There you *will* learn technique, philosophy and even some notions of the strategic approach of the art he now heads. That said, however, in those seminars where the general public is allowed to attend he is only teaching the stuff allowed to be taught to the outside world. In other words, while you *will* walk away with all sorts of valuable insights, tools, and new things to work on, you are still absolutely *not* learning the art he heads. You are learning only a small subset of what the general public is allowed to see. So you're still falling far short of the real deal.

Now to the OP. He's putting out a complete system quite openly taken from someone else. Who learned it with the understanding that he not teach. He either lied when he made the promise or he broke his promise. Sure, he may prove himself over time as an amazing technician. Or it may turn out he's just yet another kyu-ranked self-appointed shihan who's ego outstrips his abilities. Regardless, he violated a trust to not teach the art. And it appears he's doing so, taken in its entirety including techniques, strategies, philosophies, etc.

If he was teaching how to improve posture while holding the jo and deliver powerful strikes with the jo without teaching techniques and a full art *and* he said he's simply teaching body skills, I doubt anyone would have raised even the slightest of peeps.

But enough of this. I think Mary hit the proverbial nail. I wasn't going to post on this because it struck me as so obviously wrong and misleading.

I need a break from forums. I really need a break.

Demetrio Cereijo
02-14-2011, 11:55 AM
Here's the aerial tracking image of the Tengu Short Form's implicit line which appeared in my mind out of nowhere as I was falling asleep one night. I had never seen it before, but I got out of bed, went outside, and the form came out perfectly on its own.
Learning you are, young padawan. :D

All well and good but it does not make him right.
No it doesn't. But I believe he is honest, which is a lot considering what there is around, and is honesty is what makes him inspirational for those who know him.

dps
02-14-2011, 11:58 AM
Let's bottom line this discussion....

4th kyu in two systems = novice

REALLY good 4th kyu = really good novice

Genius 4th kyu = really smart novice

Mr. Hamaki may very well be a genius, but he is a novice at martial arts. No offense intended, just fact.

Howard

Sensei Read did not think he was a novice. His black belt and instructor license was taken away because of behavior not his understanding of Aikbojitsu.

Fact;

from,

http://www.aikibojitsu.com/TenyuHamakiBiography.html

"Tenyu Hamaki sensei holds the rank of 1st Dan in Aikibojitsu and teaches Aikibojitsu at Northcoast
Aikido in Northern California. He holds the Aikibojitsu Instructor License."

dps

Mark Freeman
02-14-2011, 12:07 PM
You'll notice that I said that most of my female friends. many of whom would make wonderful contributions here. won't do so because of the level of vituperation. As far as I am concerned, that's pretty much a fact. One of my friends who runs a dojo looked at the posts the other day and said she couldn't believe that amount of what she called "mud slinging". She has no interest in participating yet she would actually be wonderful to have posting.

How many women do you see here? Not many proportionally. While most of my senior male friends won't post either, for the same basic reasons... they feel it takes too much time to wade through all the BS just to get to the good stuff, if you look, there are at least a few senior men who post and NO really senior women. Where as you will find Henry Ellis, a Chuck Clark, a Toby Threadgill or Howard Popkin posting here, you will nowhere find a Mary Heiny, Linda Holiday, Pat Hendricks, Kayla Feder, etc. That's all I meant.

It's not meant to be patronizing and in no way means that I think it's nice that some "little woman" can keep up with the guys. Quite the opposite. I appreciate that a woman is willing to put up with the often "low tone" of the discussions and not only not leave but dish it out when she feels like it. The fact that most women have no time for the kinds of shenanigans that go on in the forums is our loss, not their gain, as far as I am concerned. This stuff can be such a boys club a lot of the time. It's only recently that we have had the number of women posting that we do... it used to be worse. It would be great if some really senior women could be persuaded to post but none of the ones I am friends with want any part of the aggressive back and forth that goes on. I know for a fact that a number of them read these discussions occasionally but they won't post.

So, yes, I am happy when the some of the women don't get put off and will participate in the give and take and not just shake their heads and go away thinking "Boys, boys. boys..."

Hi George,

I know you didn't mean it to, and I did add that in my p.s. I was being slightly tongue in cheek when I said it but I don't think I conveyed that tone in the text, apologies.

Aikiweb is a pretty small place with a few familiar faces, many of the people that used to post when I joined over 5 years ago, don't still frequent the forums. I left it alone myself for a few years. People come and go, that's the nature of the beast.

It is a shame that more senior women are not represented here, interestingly enough, they don't get mentioned very much when all the IP/IS/aiki wonga waving is going on, why? do they not feature in the equation?

I practice with some superb teachers some of whom happen to be women. I see no difference in the aikido I know, as it has no gender bias.

The forums have a bit of bar room feel about them, some people are not keen on the atmosphere, that's fine, their lives are in no way diminished by not being here. You are right though, it is our loss that a) there aren't more women posting here and b) the tone can descend too far.

Personally I don't like any all male environments, they usually make me feel embarassed to be of the gender. I much prefer the balance that women bring. (mind you all female environments, can be problematic, so some of my female friends tell me:) )

Maybe if everyone behaves themselves, we would attract more of the fairer sex to the discussions?

boys will be boys, true, which is a pain in the bum as they scare away the women, children and old folk in other words, the interesting folk.

regards

Mark

George S. Ledyard
02-14-2011, 12:16 PM
Hi George,

I know you didn't mean it to, and I did add that in my p.s. I was being slightly tongue in cheek when I said it but I don't think I conveyed that tone in the text, apologies.

Aikiweb is a pretty small place with a few familiar faces, many of the people that used to post when I joined over 5 years ago, don't still frequent the forums. I left it alone myself for a few years. People come and go, that's the nature of the beast.

It is a shame that more senior women are not represented here, interestingly enough, they don't get mentioned very much when all the IP/IS/aiki wonga waving is going on, why? do they not feature in the equation?

I practice with some superb teachers some of whom happen to be women. I see no difference in the aikido I know, as it has no gender bias.

The forums have a bit of bar room feel about them, some people are not keen on the atmosphere, that's fine, their lives are in no way diminished by not being here. You are right though, it is our loss that a) there aren't more women posting here and b) the tone can descend too far.

Personally I don't like any all male environments, they usually make me feel embarassed to be of the gender. I much prefer the balance that women bring. (mind you all female environments, can be problematic, so some of my female friends tell me:) )

Maybe if everyone behaves themselves, we would attract more of the fairer sex to the discussions?

boys will be boys, true, which is a pain in the bum as they scare away the women, children and old folk in other words, the interesting folk.

regards

Mark

My entire history in Aikido has been tied up with powerful women. When I started with Saotome Sensei in 1976, three out of the five yudansha who moved there to help him open that dojo were women and they were my first teachers and practice partners. That firs year Linda Holiday Sensei came to train with us, then Patty Saotome moved up from Florida. Most of these women are 6th dans now and several run their own schools and have for decades.

When I came to Seattle, Sensei told me to train with Mary Heiny Sensei. The majority of her seniors were women and they are all 6th Dans now and have their own schools. Pam Cooper, Joanne Veneziano, and Kimberly Richardson all have dojos in the Seattle area and all trained at that dojo under Mary when I was there.

So, Aikido in my experience has not been a "boys club" and I did not at all intend to sound patronizing in my post. It wasn't meant that way.

dps
02-14-2011, 12:16 PM
No it doesn't. But I believe he is honest, which is a lot considering what there is around, and is honesty is what makes him inspirational for those who know him.

Couldn't agree more.

His being a nice guy and his honesty are not substitutes for facts in an argument.
dps

Marc Abrams
02-14-2011, 12:22 PM
Sensei Read did not think he was a novice. His black belt and instructor license was taken away because of behavior not his understanding of Aikbojitsu.

Fact;

from,

http://www.aikibojitsu.com/TenyuHamakiBiography.html

"Tenyu Hamaki sensei holds the rank of 1st Dan in Aikibojitsu and teaches Aikibojitsu at Northcoast
Aikido in Northern California. He holds the Aikibojitsu Instructor License."

dps

David:

I consider people under Shodan as learning the Alphabet. A person with a Shodan now knows the alphabet and is beginning to work on basic sentence structure. The higher up in Dan rank you go, the more sophisticated your "writing abilities become."
Now this person ONLY has an understanding of the basics (Kihon Waza). He was allowed to teach the basics, which was what he knew. If he knew the the entire system, his rank would reflect that.

Demetrio:

This person was not honest and did not maintain the integrity of his word (written or otherwise). This person is Japanese (born in Japan- according to him) which means that he must have some understanding of the dishonor he brought to his family, particularly his brother, who recommended him. This person did not own the license (just like any other professional license). It is something issued by the person/governing body and can be revoked at any time (for cause of course). If you find this young man as an example that has aspired you, then go with it. I seem to get the impression that you are among a select few headed in that direction.

Tenyu's latest posts simply seem like attention seeking to me. Just my opinions.

Marc Abrams

dps
02-14-2011, 12:50 PM
David:
If he knew the the entire system, his rank would reflect that.

He can buy the whole kit and kaboodle right here;

http://www.aikibojitsu.com/Store.html

The Aikibojitsu Store

Selected Videos
Until recently it has been possible to purchase DVDs individually. However we are currently only offering individual videos in
two-disc sets. These two-disc sets may be ordered below. A single disc is priced at $32.00, so each 2-disc set is $64.00.
$32.00 X 2 = $64.00
$32.00 X 2 = $64.00
$32.00 X 2 = $64.00
Store Plans - Coming Soon!!!

We are currently upgrading our website and especially the Store. We will soon be offering an Intermediate and Advanced line of
Aikibojitsu Instructional Videos, including the long awaited Master Short Form List Volumes.

We also plan to offer a number of items related to Aikido and Aikibojitsu. Among these will be

- Aikibojitsu uniforms
- Traditional white Keiko Gi (keiko gi - training uniform), colored and black belts
- Black Hakama to be worn at formal Aikibojitsu events
- T-Shirts with silkscreen Aikibojitsu Logo
- Sweatshirts with silkscreen Aikibojitsu Logo
- Sweatshirts with embroidered Aikibojitsu Logo
- Aikibojitsu staffs
- Ceramic Tiles with Kanji
- Masakatsu
- Agatsu



This person was not honest and did not maintain the integrity of his word (written or otherwise).
I agree.

This person is Japanese (born in Japan- according to him) which means that he must have some understanding of the dishonor he brought to his family, particularly his brother, who recommended him. This person did not own the license (just like any other professional license). It is something issued by the person/governing body and can be revoked at any time (for cause of course).

Isn't this how O'Sensei started.

Did Takeda give O'Sensei the thumbs up on starting a martial art that was very much like his own.

Unless you feel that O'Sensei stole it fair and square and Tenyu didn't.

If you find this young man as an example that has aspired you, then go with it. I seem to get the impression that you are among a select few headed in that direction.

I don't.
Wrong assumption.

Tenyu's latest posts simply seem like attention seeking to me. Just my opinions.

Marc Abrams

Like anyone else who posts on forums including yourself.

I am not defending Tenyu's honesty or integrity nor am I questioning O'Sensei's honesty and integrity.

I'm just pointing out that what Tenyu did is remarkably similar to what the O'Sensei did and how one feels about Tenyu should reflect how one feels about everybody who does the same thing including O'Senei.

dps

lbb
02-14-2011, 12:54 PM
Wow, look what happens if you decide to take a long lunch.

DH
02-14-2011, 12:58 PM
All right, David, since you seem to not want to let this go, I'll give it a stab.
I have attended seminars by Dan H (as well as Mike S although Mike doesn't appear to cause you any angst).

WRT to Ark and Dan, neither is teaching "martial arts" in those seminars. They're certainly not teaching "Daito Ryu". Nor are they teaching a weird approximation of daito ryu. Best I can tell they're teaching about their understanding of Aiki. As well as exercises/routines/etc on how to build those skills as well as the physical body in order to do those things. I learned no techniques in the sense of something like "katatedori nikyo". I learned no strategy. I learned no martial philosophy.

Daito ryu, Aikido, and most arts of any substance are, IMHO, based on some of the things Dan, Ark, and others are teaching. And without those things I think Aikido and Daito Ryu lose some of their power. However, they are not *the* art. The art is vastly larger, a vast curriculum of techniques, philosophies, and approaches.

To contrast, if we assume that Toby Threadgill's art contains aiki as well then Dan and Ark are teaching things that are part of the base of his beloved TSYR. But you wouldn't say Dan is teaching TSYR. Neither are they teaching Daito Ryu. They are also *not* teaching Aikido, not by any stretch.

I wish I remember where I read it, but Ellis Amdur wrote something I thought was quite profound. He compared Aiki with a fine brandy. Without a vessel to carry it all you have is all over the floor. That's one reason I am somewhat skeptical of those who abandon everything in favor of "pure" aiki skills. That's cool, I suppose, if that's what you want. But for me I see it as part of the toolkit/foundation that I use to build/inform my movement and express my art. But it, itself, is not the art. Far from it.

It is about building a "budo body". I like that quote (from Dan for a proper attribution).

Perfect Keith
There is a whole lot of presumption in statements about me that do not prove out in reality. There is much I can indeed do or teach as more than a few now know. I stay away from that in these get togethers. I recently decided l am also no longer going to do light sparring in seminars either. It is not part of my goal nor part of what I have been asked to do.
I was recently asked by a 6th dan at a seminar to define certain things I was doing in Aikido. I stopped him on the spot stating. "I am in the presence of a 5th dan and a 6th dan and you want my opinion? No thanks...above my pay grade. That's your job"

Of course he went on to try to discuss the use of the body method I was teaching and it's fluid consistency from Koryu to Daito ryu to MMA and modern weapons I stopped him again only now saying. "Now you're above your pay grade."
Oddly enough I keep having students and teachers from many different arts telling me where this training fits into their arts. I have the same answer. "Thats your job...not mine."

Anything else is hubris and disrespectful to the teachers, I am there to teach a certain skill set...not to challenge them on the vast array of other skills and knowledge they have. As a couple of teachers have recently pointed out when they stepped outside to learn from a certain IP coach only to find out they were being slammed behind their backs, I have too much respect for all the other things they know and for what they are trying to do and for stepping outside of their fighting ability to put their asses on the line to learn something new.

My goals are not to "take away from them" or cause harm, but to add to their game. So far the respect.... can indeed work both ways.
Anyway... thanks for laying that out
See ya soon
Dan

Demetrio Cereijo
02-14-2011, 01:01 PM
Hi Marc,

It was Ledyard Sensei the one who I was talking about. Let me rephrase my post for further clarification:

No it (what Howie said about Ledyard Sensei) doesn't (make Ledyard Sensei right). But I believe he (Ledyard Sensei) is honest, which is a lot considering what there is around, and is honesty is what makes him (Ledyard Sensei) inspirational for those who know him.

Better now?

On Tenyu's honesty, integrity and japanesessness... my issue in this thread is people trying to juzgue his behaviour using two contradictory and non compatible standards at the same time: (a) modern western ethics & (b) (pseudo) feudal era bushi ethics.

As attempting to explain the difference between modern western and real feudal japanese bushi ethics, and how Tenyu's behaviour could have been considered appropiate and correct in other times and places, would be boring and probably fruitless here (especially considering my poor English skills) I'll let the issue go.


Demetrio:

This person was not honest and did not maintain the integrity of his word (written or otherwise). This person is Japanese (born in Japan- according to him) which means that he must have some understanding of the dishonor he brought to his family, particularly his brother, who recommended him. This person did not own the license (just like any other professional license). It is something issued by the person/governing body and can be revoked at any time (for cause of course). If you find this young man as an example that has aspired you, then go with it. I seem to get the impression that you are among a select few headed in that direction.

Tenyu's latest posts simply seem like attention seeking to me. Just my opinions.

Marc Abrams

Maybe you'd like to reconsider your post. I think you've jumped into a pool without checking if there was water in it.

Regards.

PS. I hunt Tenyus for fun. Ask Howie ;)

Thomas Campbell
02-14-2011, 01:07 PM
I wish I remember where I read it, but Ellis Amdur wrote something I thought was quite profound. He compared Aiki with a fine brandy. Without a vessel to carry it all you have is all over the floor.

Hidden in Plain Sight, but I don't have a copy with me to check on whether it is in the Introduction or one of the later chapters. Ellis later wrote more cogently:

"In HIPS, I referred to the waza as the bottle and the IT as the brandy - without a bottle, where is the liquid? On the floor."

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=241277&postcount=51

Howard Popkin
02-14-2011, 01:09 PM
Hi all,

After over a year of independent study by myself I've decided to share the development of a new style of Aikido which I'm calling Aikibodo. Although I discovered and created most of the forms I currently practice, I have had many great teachers in my short life that have influenced and enabled me to be in such a position.

I trained in Seido Juku Karate under Kaicho Tadashi Nakamura at honbu dojo in NYC for three years. His school has positively changed the lives of tens of thousands of people all over the world, and I'm quite fortunate my brother Tenchi persistently advised me to join for years until I actually got the guts to do it. I was able to train with some of the most compassionate and physically talented people I've ever met. The collective intensity of training was unbelievably phenomenal. Aikibodo could not exist without Seido and the strength of spirit it instills.

Afterwards I trained in Aikido for two and a half years at Tom Read Sensei's dojo in Arcata CA under a handful of dedicated, inspiring teachers. The giant Carl Tissol allowed me to attack and practice takemusu ukemi at a level rivaling my karate experience, a rare privilege. The grounded wisdom of Peggy Ilene created a peaceful yet powerful presence I admire. Read Sensei taught me the theoretical principles of Aiki and foundational forms of Aikibojitsu which in combination with the staffwork of Morihei Ueshiba ultimately guided the base forms of Aikibodo. Read Sensei recently published a technical book which I highly recommend for any serious Aikidoist. I made a few private interpersonal mistakes and a couple public ones here on Aikiweb which I take full responsibility for, but mixed with unrelated political issues of a board managed dojo and confluence of events, I had no choice but to become independent in order to continue and progress with my training. I wish the Northcoast Aikido Dojo continued success, as they help other students in learning Aikido and Aikibojitsu.

The other main influence has been my research, experience, and appreciation of traditional independent post-war gospel. I've created the largest digital archive of previously unknown and unrecognized quartets from the 60's through early 80's on the internet, all available for free: http://www.hollygroverecords.com/index.php?act=gospel I've been deeply humbled by the buddha-like nature of these veteran ‘shihans of harmony' who, despite being ignored by academic institutions while untold number pass away each year, I consider national treasures.

For those concerned with rank, I'm officially a 4th kyu in Karate and Aikido. I just started my first weekly public Aikibodo class yesterday. Ideally I'd wait till I've developed a few students locally for a couple years before attempting to share elsewhere. But due to imminent consequences of global fossil fuel depletion, such luxury of time may not exist. For those unaware of our present predicament, a general overview is available here: http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/ I've studied peak oil theory and history in depth for six years and have no desire to discuss in length on this matter here. Aikido is a study of how we use personal energy to interact with the universe, whereas Peak Oil is a study of society's insanely unsustainable and irreplaceable dependence on terminally declining cheap energy sources. I'm happy to provide more resources of information via forum or private message, please ask if interested.

Here is a link to video of the Umi Kata recorded last August: http://www.youtube.com/user/WayOftheStaff (There is some external compensation for the deep sand and roaring ocean.) The kata contains more complex forms intended for the advanced practitioner but the most important basic forms are accessible to anybody regardless of physical ability or age. I'm now making myself available to share this beautiful practice with anyone dedicated and sincerely interested. Please refer and address me by my first name, no formal titles please!

respectfully,
Tenyu Hamaki

I'm just going by what the man said about himself....

Either way, if he has something to share, then enjoy !!!!!!

As always, go see for yourself.

Howard

dps
02-14-2011, 01:13 PM
There is a presumption in Bourke and Scaggs statements that do not prove out in reality

Hello Mr. Hardy,

The story goes that a group of my ancestors crossed over the Ohio River (probably swam) from Kentucky to Cincinnati, Ohio to git jobs in the shoe factories. Upon applying for the jobs they were told that anyone with a "k" in their names could not git a job. So they changed their name from Skaggs to Scaggs.

I did not realize there was three boys, Frank, Joe and Dan, in the Hardy Boys.

David

Even the spell checker wants to change my name, to Scags.

DH
02-14-2011, 01:13 PM
Hidden in Plain Sight, but I don't have a copy with me to check on whether it is in the Introduction or one of the later chapters. Ellis later wrote more cogently:

"In HIPS, I referred to the waza as the bottle and the IT as the brandy - without a bottle, where is the liquid? On the floor."

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=241277&postcount=51
Just as external physical conditioning does so much more for you than mere fighting,
So does IP/aiki offer so much more than having power to fight with.

Cheers
Dan

.

Demetrio Cereijo
02-14-2011, 01:14 PM
Hidden in Plain Sight, but I don't have a copy with me to check on whether it is in the Introduction or one of the later chapters.

pp 228-229

dps
02-14-2011, 01:15 PM
I'm just going by what the man said about himself....

Either way, if he has something to share, then enjoy !!!!!!

As always, go see for yourself.

Howard

I'm just going by what his sensei said about him.

He seems to think that he has something to share.

No thank you.

dps

Thomas Campbell
02-14-2011, 01:17 PM
Just as external physical conditioning does so much more for you than mere fighting,
So does IP/aiki offer so much more than having power to fight with.

Cheers
Dan

.

Makes me wonder what Lady Gaga could do with IP/aiki training . . .

kewms
02-14-2011, 01:19 PM
Sensei Read did not think he was a novice. His black belt and instructor license was taken away because of behavior not his understanding of Aikbojitsu.

So you wouldn't have a problem with a lawyer who continued to practice after being disbarred for misuse of client funds?

After all, his license was taken away for behavior, not because of his understanding of the law.

There's more to being an instructor than technical skill.

Katherine

Marc Abrams
02-14-2011, 01:23 PM
Hi Marc,

It was Ledyard Sensei the one who I was talking about. Let me rephrase my post for further clarification:

No it (what Howie said about Ledyard Sensei) doesn't (make Ledyard Sensei right). But I believe he (Ledyard Sensei) is honest, which is a lot considering what there is around, and is honesty is what makes him (Ledyard Sensei) inspirational for those who know him.

Better now?

On Tenyu's honesty, integrity and japanesessness... my issue in this thread is people trying to juzgue his behaviour using two contradictory and non compatible standards at the same time: (a) modern western ethics & (b) (pseudo) feudal era bushi ethics.

As attempting to explain the difference between modern western and real feudal japanese bushi ethics, and how Tenyu's behaviour could have been considered appropiate and correct in other times and places, would be boring and probably fruitless here (especially considering my poor English skills) I'll let the issue go.

Maybe you'd like to reconsider your post. I think you've jumped into a pool without checking if there was water in it.

Regards.

PS. I hunt Tenyus for fun. Ask Howie ;)

Demetrio:

My apologies regarding the misunderstanding with Ledyard Sensei.

I do not agree with you regarding your assumption regarding Japanese feudal-time ethics and western ethics.

Regards,

Marc Abrams

dps
02-14-2011, 01:33 PM
So you wouldn't have a problem with a lawyer who continued to practice after being disbarred for misuse of client funds?

After all, his license was taken away for behavior, not because of his understanding of the law.

There's more to being an instructor than technical skill.

Katherine

If there was nothing to keep that attorney from legally practicing law, he would need to have his license back, yes I would and I have, and am presently doing so because of their legal competence.

I believe in giving most people who make mistakes second chances.

You just have to keep an eye on them and your wallet.

dps

Demetrio Cereijo
02-14-2011, 02:11 PM
My apologies regarding the misunderstanding with Ledyard Sensei.
Accepted, of course. Accept mine for giving you an answer a bit over the top.

I do not agree with you regarding your assumption regarding Japanese feudal-time ethics and western ethics.

Maybe you find this (http://howdoarmbar.blogspot.com/2011/01/understanding-samurai-disloyalty.html) interesting as a starting point about japanese feudal ethics.

And don't forget the "Call the warrior a dog, call him a beast: winning is his business." Asakura Soteki, Hanawa, ed., Zoku zoku gunsho ruiju, vol. 10, pp. 1–9; PV. cited in Theodore de Bary et al (Ed), Sources of Japanese Tradition, Vol 1, p 428.

Thread worthy in itself. Maybe in another ocassion.

Regards.

Marc Abrams
02-14-2011, 02:42 PM
Accepted, of course. Accept mine for giving you an answer a bit over the top.

Maybe you find this (http://howdoarmbar.blogspot.com/2011/01/understanding-samurai-disloyalty.html) interesting as a starting point about japanese feudal ethics.

And don't forget the "Call the warrior a dog, call him a beast: winning is his business." Asakura Soteki, Hanawa, ed., Zoku zoku gunsho ruiju, vol. 10, pp. 1--9; PV. cited in Theodore de Bary et al (Ed), Sources of Japanese Tradition, Vol 1, p 428.

Thread worthy in itself. Maybe in another ocassion.

Regards.

Demetrio:

I was referring to the aspect of that warrior violating the oath to the head of his family fighting system. I did not expand the subject matter beyond that. Certainly, people can say that he did not take a blood oath and that an oral agreement is not binding. An oath was broken. This man can only move forward from this point. I certainly would not want to be in his shoes....

Regards,

Marc Abrams

Cliff Judge
02-14-2011, 02:51 PM
Maybe you find this (http://howdoarmbar.blogspot.com/2011/01/understanding-samurai-disloyalty.html) interesting as a starting point about japanese feudal ethics.

And don't forget the "Call the warrior a dog, call him a beast: winning is his business." Asakura Soteki, Hanawa, ed., Zoku zoku gunsho ruiju, vol. 10, pp. 1--9; PV. cited in Theodore de Bary et al (Ed), Sources of Japanese Tradition, Vol 1, p 428.

I don't think Marc or anybody is claiming that the set of ethics that Tenyu has violated by breaking his oath to Read Sensei to not teach Aikibujitsu is that of a Samurai to his lord. Marc may have allowed you to frame the argument in that exchange.

Some of us are arguing that the ethics in play regarding the student-teacher relationship in koryu can be applied as a precedent here. Those of us who are talking about these ethics do not misunderstand them in the way that you raise.

You may argue that this is gendai budo and it is therefore erroneous to consider the agreement Tenyu entered into with Read Sensei as a kisshomon, but you may not argue that the people on this board who practice or read about koryu training don't know what a kisshomon is. :)

Tenyu
02-14-2011, 05:42 PM
Any atemi be it physical or verbal aimed at uke in the particular simultaneously resigns the thrower into becoming uke as well. One is not separate from the harm, however well concealed, one attempts to inflict on another! This is why Aikido is so important. It took a long time before I understood this on a practical level inside the dojo. After I began working directly with ever-shifting upstream asymptotic surfaces surrounding uke, I haven't had to resort to downstream atemis which by default are dissonant in nature.

Many people to no fault of their own have grown up without the right role models of nage. Luckily there are many Aikido masters in the world who have never heard the word Aikido. But when harmony is not yet understood, many people actually prefer disharmony because the lack of either, a much needed ‘silence', is considered a form of death which primal fear vehemently resists. This dysfunctional misalignment with the universe is one of the reasons the earth is literally being destroyed.

Many people question why I would put myself on here now. If you reread my OP, I have already stated this is not what I wanted. But if one takes the time to read and understand the link on peak oil and do their own thorough independent study on the invisible elephant in everyone's living room then one will understand that time is a luxury not to be wasted.

Janet Rosen
02-14-2011, 05:51 PM
Many people question why I would put myself on here now. If you reread my OP, I have already stated this is not what I wanted. ....then one will understand that time is a luxury not to be wasted.

Oh boy. I think my post about Jesus manquées, which I meant purely metaphorically at the time may actually now be read more literally than intended.

graham christian
02-14-2011, 06:11 PM
Clearly it's an opinion, and clearly it's a Graham-flavored opinion, naturally :D You seem like a kind soul, in general, but I think you do have a tendency to over-mystify things -- to see all kinds of mysterious meanings and layers where they may not exist. The statement isn't Zen, isn't a Buddhist teaching of any flavor, and really is quite the opposite of a Zen koan. It is, if anything, anti-mystery, or at least anti-obfuscation. There is a difference between opinion and facts, and it's a big mistake to confuse the two.

In this thread, you've been advocating a fair and even-handed approach, and that's all good; however, just because your approach is fair and even-handed doesn't mean that the facts you discover will weigh equally on both sides. When that happens, honesty demands that you recognize that the facts favor one side. If you refuse to do so, you're no longer being even-handed, you're just creating false equivalences.

Mary, Mary, Quite contrary.
Very funny. Opposite of a zen koan eh? What I am aware of, can demonstrate and show to be real are facts therefore. I own my own facts and your view on them would thus be your opinion.
My abilities are facts as are yours. You own them I hope.

Is this a layer you missed?

To weigh up facts on both sides eh? To discard the opinions and weigh up the facts. Mmmm. Maybe your a judge.

It all sounds very logical but there is more to wisdom than counting up facts like a balance sheet. There's degree of importance, there's relevence, there's all the facts that not been divulged.

So the facts presented on count may favor one side like a balance sheet so what? This means you have some knowledge. Ever heard the saying about a little knowledge?

Knowledge is a body or group of data. It has nothing to do with knowing.

It's o.k. for shooting the breeze on a discussion page though so have fun. It's all good.

Is that enough mystery for you,
Or like like a zenso, do I bore you,
Should I be serious, or ignore you?
Never! Your my sister, I adore you.

Peace. G.

Toby Threadgill
02-14-2011, 06:11 PM
Oh boy. I think my post about Jesus manquées, which I meant purely metaphorically at the time may actually now be read more literally than intended.

Alrighty then....

Janet & Mary.....Some people in here have entered the aikibunny time/space distortion field. If you want to hold hands so the dysfunctional misalignment of the universe caused by reasoning from planet Neptune doesn't cause us to fall into a singularity and go poof, just say the word, I'm right here with you guys...feet planted on terra firma.

Toby Threadgill / TSYR

George S. Ledyard
02-14-2011, 06:33 PM
Alrighty then....

Janet & Mary.....Some people in here have entered the aikibunny time/space distortion field. If you want to hold hands so the dysfunctional misalignment of the universe caused by reasoning from planet Neptune doesn't cause us to fall into a singularity and go poof, just say the word, I'm right here with you guys...feet planted on terra firma.

Toby Threadgill / TSYR

Toby,
You never fail to crack me up...
- George

Shadowfax
02-14-2011, 07:29 PM
Well I'm no senior but I am a woman so perhaps I can please Mr Ledyard a little. :) I have been following this thread for the past few days as I kinda wondered how the OP would be received. I have given a lot of thought to both sides of the argument not to mention enjoying all of the little side trips the tread has taken, especially in the realm of IT whihch I have recently had the pleasure to begin exploring.

Anyway here is my thoughts on the matter.

When I was looking for my aikido sensei I took the time to talk to the teachers and get to know their character. And indeed they were wonderful people to get to know. But I did not just take the fact that they were wonderful people with good intentions into account when choosing them to be my sensei. I looked at their teachers and their background and where they came from. I think if I found out that my teacher had done something like this in respect to his own teacher I just could no longer respect him. I could not choose someone to guide me in my own growth as a martial artist who had acted in such a manner. I would be embarrassed to call such a person my sensei.

It would take an awful lot to make me change my mind. And it would take the person being admitted back into grace by his own seniors at the very least.

I also note that this discussion contains the full real name of each member including the OP. Something we are all very aware of when we post our own contributions. I recall looking up my teachers past discussions here on aikiweb in order to get to know him when I first began training. The OP's future aspiring students may very well do the same. The words posted here will be available for many years to come to anyone who looks for information regarding this person.

I think enough has been said on the subject. Don't you? ;)

Tenyu
02-14-2011, 08:21 PM
A very brief anthropological understanding:

http://www.violence.de/prescott/letters/Social-Behavioral_Characteristics.pdf

The phrase "religious activity" is used here in the general western sense indicating separation from God rather than the identification which occurs in healthy cultures.

Gary David
02-14-2011, 08:47 PM
Is that enough mystery for you,
Or like like a zenso, do I bore you,
Should I be serious, or ignore you?
Never! Your my sister, I adore you.

Peace. G.

Graham
You crack me up……… Your style reminds me of friends I had back in the 60's and 70's……. At the time interesting discussions hazed in smoke or other eatables. Of course everyone had to go back to work on Monday.

Just go straight........

Gary

lbb
02-14-2011, 09:11 PM
Mary, Mary, Quite contrary.

Wow, I never heard that one before. Do you remember the one about the little lamb? I can never quite remember how it goes, so obviously I haven't heard it enough.
Very funny. Opposite of a zen koan eh?

Yes, it is. It is simple and straightforward, and there is no intuitive leap required.

What I am aware of, can demonstrate and show to be real are facts therefore. I own my own facts and your view on them would thus be your opinion.
My abilities are facts as are yours. You own them I hope.

Is this a layer you missed?


No, I think it's you who have misunderstood here. Let me try by way of a simple and specific example. You cannot state "Two plus two equals five!" and then when challenged on the basis that your statement contains a factual error, say, "But it's just my opinion!" Not everything is based in fact, but facts do exist, and they are objective truth, not matters of opinion. You do not "own your own facts". No one does. You do not own your own universe where two plus two can equal five, or pi, or tiramisu.

To weigh up facts on both sides eh? To discard the opinions and weigh up the facts. Mmmm. Maybe your a judge.

And maybe you're someone who is invested in believing that there are no facts, and thus, no basis for judgment, ever. Why is that?

It all sounds very logical but there is more to wisdom than counting up facts like a balance sheet. There's degree of importance, there's relevence, there's all the facts that not been divulged.

There is no wisdom in confusing fact with opinion.

So the facts presented on count may favor one side like a balance sheet so what? This means you have some knowledge. Ever heard the saying about a little knowledge?

Indeed I do. A little knowledge encourages sophistry and obfuscation.

Consider another example that has two sides. On the one side, you have a Holocaust survivor. She tells about the atrocities that she has suffered and witnessed -- atrocities also amply documented by the accounts of others. Then, on the other side, you have a Holocaust denier, who says, "It never happened."

Two sides, one with the weight of evidence and witness...the other, a fabrication based on a desire to believe something contrary to reality. Do you think that "so what" is an adequate response to that? Saying "so what" is making a false equivalence, considering the two sides as having equal weight and merit. They do not. Approaching a question without prejudice, without pre-judging, is not the same as approaching it (as you seem to want to do) with a pre-judgment that both sides are of equal merit.

Knowledge is a body or group of data. It has nothing to do with knowing.

How can it not? The words have the same root. Knowing, by definition, is to have knowledge.

Keith Larman
02-14-2011, 09:22 PM
Graham
You crack me up……… Your style reminds me of friends I had back in the 60's and 70's…….

Ah....

Pedro: Hey how am I driving, man?
Man Stoner: [looks around] : I think we're parked.

Yeah, kinda feels that way sometimes. Where are the doritos and fruit loops?

Toby Threadgill
02-14-2011, 09:34 PM
Mary,

I just figured it out. Given Graham Christian's creativity with fact and tendency towards unrestrained sophistry, his name must be a pseudonym. His real name must be..........Glenn Beck!

:)

Toby Threadgill

graham christian
02-14-2011, 09:48 PM
Wow, I never heard that one before. Do you remember the one about the little lamb? I can never quite remember how it goes, so obviously I haven't heard it enough.

Yes, it is. It is simple and straightforward, and there is no intuitive leap required.

No, I think it's you who have misunderstood here. Let me try by way of a simple and specific example. You cannot state "Two plus two equals five!" and then when challenged on the basis that your statement contains a factual error, say, "But it's just my opinion!" Not everything is based in fact, but facts do exist, and they are objective truth, not matters of opinion. You do not "own your own facts". No one does. You do not own your own universe where two plus two can equal five, or pi, or tiramisu.

And maybe you're someone who is invested in believing that there are no facts, and thus, no basis for judgment, ever. Why is that?

There is no wisdom in confusing fact with opinion.

Indeed I do. A little knowledge encourages sophistry and obfuscation.

Consider another example that has two sides. On the one side, you have a Holocaust survivor. She tells about the atrocities that she has suffered and witnessed -- atrocities also amply documented by the accounts of others. Then, on the other side, you have a Holocaust denier, who says, "It never happened."

Two sides, one with the weight of evidence and witness...the other, a fabrication based on a desire to believe something contrary to reality. Do you think that "so what" is an adequate response to that? Saying "so what" is making a false equivalence, considering the two sides as having equal weight and merit. They do not. Approaching a question without prejudice, without pre-judging, is not the same as approaching it (as you seem to want to do) with a pre-judgment that both sides are of equal merit.

How can it not? The words have the same root. Knowing, by definition, is to have knowledge.

Mary. Relax.

I pointed out facts didn't I? A Fact is something that can be perceived and demonstrated to be there. Simple.

Examples of two plus two and holocaust are not valid as they don't fall into the realm of opinion, they are lies or delusions.

As I said, degree of importance.

'So what' means I have a little knowledge. 'So what' means I have one MAJOR fact missing called personal experience with the person concerned. Hence in lfe you have investigations, undercover operations, going and seeing. For until then you don't know. 'So what' means add some perspective to the matter. 'So what' means stop being judge, jury and executioner.

On the other hand feel free to read my response and say 'so what.'

I did just the opposite of what you say with regards to pre-judgement or prejudice. As I said TWICE, my conclusion was with the limited knowledge I had that he should go visit his old teacher and try to come to an arrangement they are both happy with.

In your logic that makes me a minority of one. That makes me what? Frankly, do I care? That's my opinion and my conclusion. It hasn't happened as yet therefore it's not a fact. In fact as far as I'm concerned it's a gift.

Let me also put it simply, I have facts, KNOWLEDGE about you--- I don't KNOW you.

Regards. G.

graham christian
02-14-2011, 10:43 PM
Hi to everyone.

Time for me to give my last words on this matter.( Hooray!)

In the spirit of Zen.

Once upon a time there was a student. He decided to study computers. HE started and read data and gained some knowledge. As he progressed the various data started clicking together and thus he built up understandings. He gathered more knowledge and understandings and applied them. He practiced. He put the knowledge and understandings to work, practicing and practicing with his computer until it all clicked together and he could DO.

The knowledge and understandings practiced resulted in ability.
Only now did he know how to use a computer.

He then used that ability to cause as much trouble as he could.

The moral of this story?

Even if you reach the dizzy heights of knowing and ability, 'so what?' What GOOD use are you putting it to?

Gary David
02-14-2011, 11:34 PM
Keith

We've got to speed things up in this hotel.
Chef, if a guest orders a three-minute egg, give it to him in two minutes.
If he orders a two-minute egg, give it to him in one minute.
If he orders a one-minute egg, give him a chicken and let him work it out for himself.

Groucho (Marx) in A Night in Casablanca (movie)


Gary

Keith Larman
02-14-2011, 11:49 PM
Ha! Gary, I just made my 10-year-old daughter watch Duck Soup. She laughed a few times, but it just didn't register... Sad, I remember being infatuated with the Marx brothers when I was a kid. Maybe I'll have to make her watch night at the opera next... :)

Toby Threadgill
02-15-2011, 12:01 AM
'So what' means I have a little knowledge. 'So what' means I have one MAJOR fact missing called personal experience with the person concerned. Hence in lfe you have investigations, undercover operations, going and seeing. For until then you don't know. 'So what' means add some perspective to the matter. 'So what' means stop being judge, jury and executioner.

On the other hand feel free to read my response and say 'so what.'

I did just the opposite of what you say with regards to pre-judgement or prejudice. As I said TWICE, my conclusion was with the limited knowledge I had that he should go visit his old teacher and try to come to an arrangement they are both happy with.


"If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?"

- Graham Christian...channeling "Alice in Wonderland"


Keith,

She's too young for Duck Soup. A Night in Casablanca is better.

"What do you think you're doing, holding the building up?

:)

Keith Larman
02-15-2011, 12:24 AM
Keith,

She's too young for Duck Soup. A Night in Casablanca is better.

"What do you think you're doing, holding the building up?


Nods head... :)

lbb
02-15-2011, 08:17 AM
Mary. Relax.

Why thanks, Graham! Your condescending and peremptory command to "relax" has put me in my place once and for all. Clearly you're the rational one in this exchange (how not, since you told me to "relax", so obviously I must be irrational). I'll go "relax" now and endeavor to be more like you.

Mark Freeman
02-15-2011, 08:33 AM
Why thanks, Graham! Your condescending and peremptory command to "relax" has put me in my place once and for all. Clearly you're the rational one in this exchange (how not, since you told me to "relax", so obviously I must be irrational). I'll go "relax" now and endeavor to be more like you.

Hi Mary,

the sarcasm in your reply is poorly hidden. I'm not saying it's unwarranted or unprovoked. However this thread has drifted way off kilter. The OP's posts are going virtually ignored (maybe the best response) while others who should know better, trade poorly disguised insults with each other.

regards

Mark

lbb
02-15-2011, 08:57 AM
the sarcasm in your reply is poorly hidden.

What on earth makes you think it was hidden at all, or that it should be? People who throw mud shouldn't complain if they get dirty, nor should others complain on their behalf.

Mark Freeman
02-15-2011, 09:19 AM
What on earth makes you think it was hidden at all, or that it should be? People who throw mud shouldn't complain if they get dirty, nor should others complain on their behalf.

Mary,

I'm not complaining on anyone's behalf. I am just pointing out that the mudslinging that is going on is making the adults look like children in the playground. ( How patronising does that sound!:eek: )

enjoy the game, carry on;)

regards,

Mark

dps
02-15-2011, 09:23 AM
Mudslinging is used when one has little or no facts to back up their argument and have only perceptions and feelings to argue with.

dps

Demetrio Cereijo
02-15-2011, 09:28 AM
Facts? Who needs facts?

Toby Threadgill
02-15-2011, 09:29 AM
Mark,

Did you think Mary was trying to hide her sarcasm? If so, the Americans and English truly are people separated by a common language.

And, I see no poorly disquised insults here. People being lampooned and satirized? Yes, and given some of the bizarre sophistry employed on this thread, satire and lampooning seems quite appropriate.

At the end of the day, someone came here to very publicly proclaim his budo expertise and qualifications. When scrutinized, his proclamation was found wanting, if not outright disingenuous. The responses from him and those who attempted to defend his actions were so obtuse and incoherent that any further attempt at discussion became an exercise in absurdity. At that point lampoonery, satire and sarcasm resulted. Such interaction is not only appropriate but a well worn method to guide a discussion back towards reasoned logic. Alas it is seldom successful, but some of us with a sense of humor do get a chuckle or two out of such dialogue, which means this exercise was not a complete bust.

:)

Toby Threadgill

dps
02-15-2011, 09:37 AM
Mudslinging is used when one has little or no facts to back up their argument and have only perceptions and feelings to argue with.

dps

Also lampoonery, satire and sarcasm .

dps

C. David Henderson
02-15-2011, 10:16 AM
So Graham, I think you're running up against the tolerance limits of a number of people who support free and open discussion but have been consistently frustrated by some tendencies in your writing. This is an opportunity for self-examination. Will you seize it?

Mark Freeman
02-15-2011, 10:28 AM
Mark,

Did you think Mary was trying to hide her sarcasm? If so, the Americans and English truly are people separated by a common language.

And, I see no poorly disquised insults here. People being lampooned and satirized? Yes, and given some of the bizarre sophistry employed on this thread, satire and lampooning seems quite appropriate.

At the end of the day, someone came here to very publicly proclaim his budo expertise and qualifications. When scrutinized, his proclamation was found wanting, if not outright disingenuous. The responses from him and those who attempted to defend his actions were so obtuse and incoherent that any further attempt at discussion became an exercise in absurdity. At that point lampoonery, satire and sarcasm resulted. Such interaction is not only appropriate but a well worn method to guide a discussion back towards reasoned logic. Alas it is seldom successful, but some of us with a sense of humor do get a chuckle or two out of such dialogue, which means this exercise was not a complete bust.

:)

Toby Threadgill

Hi Toby,

personally I love satire, and lampoonery, my favourite form of comedy, and I am guilty of using sarcasm as a means of communication, not a trait I admire that much. I was probably responding slightly tangentially to another thread where, it has been noted that the tone of the exchanges here can, scare people off from participating.
This thread is a fluffy baby kitten compared to some that I read.

I also agree with what you say about the OP and his being found wanting - He will live with the results of his actions and rightly so.

I do think though, that some of the proclamations about those defending the indefensible may be a bit too strident, maybe they were trying to bring a little balance into the proceedings? maybe.
"There is nothing more dangerous than man who has certainty" I believe I am wonderfully misquoting some wise man there.

I may be talking a load of old bollocks (as we are wont to say round these parts). And it is unlike me to come over all serious. I usually can be relied upon to be a bit flippant to lighten the proceedings.

I think Phi is the master humourist on these threads, he nearly always raises a smile:)

Anyway, I'm supposed to be working right now, and I'm not sure my boss will see the funny side of me chatting to you.

I will follow the rest with interest if it is, and if I do see any humour I will duly laugh.:p

Oh, Ironically I think that the Americans and the Brits being separated by a common language is quite wrong but at the same time quite funny, but then you guys don't get irony, do you?;)

regards,

Mark
let's see if the discussion gets back to reasoned logic:)

Toby Threadgill
02-15-2011, 10:52 AM
Also lampoonery, satire and sarcasm .

dps

Mr Skaggs,

Given your own exquisite and well cultivated skill at sophism I find your response pricelessly ironic. (This would be an example of "fact based" sarcasm.)

See Mark, some of us Americans do get irony...

and bronzy....and goldy.

:)

Toby Threadgill

Marc Abrams
02-15-2011, 10:55 AM
Given the tone of this thread, I think that this link is befitting!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piWCBOsJr-w

Marc Abrams

Toby Threadgill
02-15-2011, 11:01 AM
Given the tone of this thread, I think that this link is befitting!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piWCBOsJr-w

Marc Abrams

I think this is better!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AY-rVVRZoC8

:)

Alas duty calls so this exercise in observing "itachi no Saigobe" must come to an end.

Good luck to you all in whatever humorous or exasperating pursuits you find worthy of your time.

Toby Threadgill

Demetrio Cereijo
02-15-2011, 11:58 AM
I don't think Marc or anybody is claiming that the set of ethics that Tenyu has violated by breaking his oath to Read Sensei to not teach Aikibujitsu is that of a Samurai to his lord. Marc may have allowed you to frame the argument in that exchange.

Some of us are arguing that the ethics in play regarding the student-teacher relationship in koryu can be applied as a precedent here. Those of us who are talking about these ethics do not misunderstand them in the way that you raise.

You may argue that this is gendai budo and it is therefore erroneous to consider the agreement Tenyu entered into with Read Sensei as a kisshomon, but you may not argue that the people on this board who practice or read about koryu training don't know what a kisshomon is. :)

It would take me a pair of columns the size the ones Prof. Goldsbury writes (in poorer English) for explaining how disloyalty, treason, stealing, backstabbing and making shit up is the real bushi style, not the Tokugawa bureaucrats and much less the nitobeistic romanticised western ethics & values known as 'bushido'. Plus adressing how many ryuha were founded by fully licensed (as in 'a tengu gave me the scrolls, got a problem with that?') martial arts instructors and analyzing what are (were) the usual contents of a kisshomon, how was it enforced, how it applies to hamoned members of a school and the developement of the iemoto/soke system as a mean to protect both revenues and the fascist social order well entered Edo era.

And that for 'winning a thread' about a delusional wanabee stealing a staff twirling method. Doesn't worth the effort.

George S. Ledyard
02-15-2011, 12:49 PM
And that for 'winning a thread' about a delusional wanabee stealing a staff twirling method. Doesn't worth the effort.

There you go... as Bob Dylan wrote,"You don't need a weather man to know which way the wind blows."

Keith Larman
02-15-2011, 12:53 PM
Demetrio

I would be very surprised if any of the experience folk posting would disagree with what you wrote. Lots of tengu inspired a lot of things over the years. But those guys weren't exactly seen as being terribly honorable at the time either.

Years ago I got a speeding ticket. I was a minor at the time. I was really upset about it. The officer couldn't have possibly known how fast I was going. He saw me in a group of cars and singled me out because I was in a nice car (my parents') and was a long-haired teenager that looked like your typical "out to get in trouble" kid. I thought I was singled out, and I probably was.

So I go with my dad to the juvenile court and sit in the office with the judge. The judge sits there patiently as I lay out how the officer obviously singled me out, how he couldn't have possibly determined my speed, etc. Then he looked at me and said "Okay young man, but were you speeding?" "Ummm, judge, well, ... yes." I was given a fine and sent on my way.

The point is that all those things I said were likely true. The officer singled me out for all the wrong reasons. The officer couldn't have possibly known how fast I was going but he wrote down I was doing 48 MPH in a 35 zone. I looked like "trouble" so he probably wanted to make sure I hadn't stolen the car and the speeding was a pretense to do that.

But I was still speeding. I was in the wrong no matter that he let all those other people go who "looked" more respectable.

History is full of guys acting badly. That is true in every culture. It is true of many martial arts (which seems to attract that like flies). It was a jerk move then and it is a jerk move now. Yeah, sometimes it worked out for them. It was still a jerk move.

dps
02-15-2011, 01:13 PM
Mr Skaggs,

Given your own exquisite and well cultivated skill at sophism I find your response pricelessly ironic. (This would be an example of "fact based" sarcasm.)

See Mark, some of us Americans do get irony...

and bronzy....and goldy.

:)

Toby Threadgill

Your and your friends arguments in this thread, are not based on all the facts nor do they use logic.

A sophism is taken as a specious argument used for deceiving someone. It might be crafted to seem logical while actually being wrong, or it might use difficult words and complicated sentences to intimidate the audience into agreeing, or it might appeal to the audience's prejudices and emotions rather than logic; e.g., raising doubts towards the one asserting, rather than his assertion. The goal of a sophism is often to make the audience believe the writer or speaker to be smarter than he or she actually is; e.g., accusing another of sophistry for using persuasion techniques.

A sophist is a user of sophisms, i.e., an insincere person trying to confuse or deceive people. Sophists will try to persuade the audience while paying little attention to whether their argument is logical and factual.

dps

Fred Little
02-15-2011, 01:24 PM
It would take me a pair of columns the size the ones Prof. Goldsbury writes (in poorer English) for explaining how disloyalty, treason, stealing, backstabbing and making shit up is the real bushi style, not the Tokugawa bureaucrats and much less the nitobeistic romanticised western ethics & values known as 'bushido'. .

Eiko Ikegami already wrote the book on that one. It's called "The Taming of the Samurai." (http://www.amazon.com/Taming-Samurai-Honorific-Individualism-Making/dp/0674868099/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1297796213&sr=1-1)

The thing about distinctively Japanese "making shit up" regarding lineage claims that you're missing is this: most such claims were concocted to satisfy (sometimes legal, sometimes cultural) requirements over and above simple efficacy. There's a big difference between having a high-ranking member of the buke say "I love what you can do and really wish I could hire you as an instructor for my guys, but the lineage claim isn't quite antique enough. On the other hand, I know an expert in ancient document research who might be able to help us out" and, to paraphrase George, essentially using the guy who tossed you out on your ear as a reference.

The former may be ethically dubious, but the latter is unbelievably dumb, any way you slice it. Let us not confused disturbingly nuanced ethics for boneheaded cluelessness or draw any equivalence between the two.

But the real point here was the URL for Eiko Ikegami's book, which is well worth the read -- especially the section in the back comparing the samurai to contemporary Latin honor cultures.

Enjoy!

FL

Demetrio Cereijo
02-15-2011, 01:24 PM
Sophists will try to persuade the audience while paying little attention to whether their argument is logical and factual.
So what?

This is about winning, this is about crushing enemies, seeing them driven before you and hearing the lamentation of their women. Anything goes. Real bujutsu.

Demetrio Cereijo
02-15-2011, 01:29 PM
Eiko Ikegami already wrote the book on that one. It's called "The Taming of the Samurai." (http://www.amazon.com/Taming-Samurai-Honorific-Individualism-Making/dp/0674868099/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1297796213&sr=1-1)

Enjoy!

FL

Thanks for pointing me to Ikegami's book (http://howdoarmbar.blogspot.com/2011/01/taming-of-samurai-honorific.html).
;)

dps
02-15-2011, 01:44 PM
History is full of guys acting badly. That is true in every culture. It is true of many martial arts (which seems to attract that like flies). It was a jerk move then and it is a jerk move now. Yeah, sometimes it worked out for them. It was still a jerk move.

Wow sort of like Deja Vue in a way.

Hmmm, sounds like a familiar story, once upon a time in Japan.

Of course your words carry more weight than mine because you are higher ranking than I, an outstanding member of both the Aikido and Aikiweb communities and a nice guy.:)

dps ( Aikido hobbyist )

dps
02-15-2011, 01:49 PM
Your and your friends arguments in this thread, are not based on all the facts nor do they use logic.

A sophism is taken as a specious argument used for deceiving someone. It might be crafted to seem logical while actually being wrong, or it might use difficult words and complicated sentences to intimidate the audience into agreeing, or it might appeal to the audience's prejudices and emotions rather than logic; e.g., raising doubts towards the one asserting, rather than his assertion. The goal of a sophism is often to make the audience believe the writer or speaker to be smarter than he or she actually is; e.g., accusing another of sophistry for using persuasion techniques.

A sophist is a user of sophisms, i.e., an insincere person trying to confuse or deceive people. Sophists will try to persuade the audience while paying little attention to whether their argument is logical and factual.

dps

My bad. I forgot to show where the quote came from.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophism#Modern_usage

Cliff Judge
02-15-2011, 01:56 PM
Your and your friends arguments in this thread, are not based on all the facts nor do they use logic.

A sophism is taken as a specious argument used for deceiving someone. It might be crafted to seem logical while actually being wrong, or it might use difficult words and complicated sentences to intimidate the audience into agreeing, or it might appeal to the audience's prejudices and emotions rather than logic; e.g., raising doubts towards the one asserting, rather than his assertion. The goal of a sophism is often to make the audience believe the writer or speaker to be smarter than he or she actually is; e.g., accusing another of sophistry for using persuasion techniques.

A sophist is a user of sophisms, i.e., an insincere person trying to confuse or deceive people. Sophists will try to persuade the audience while paying little attention to whether their argument is logical and factual.

dps

Mr Skaggs, I apologize if this sounds disrespectfully obtuse and direct, but what is your overall point in this thread? Towards the beginning of the thread you seemed to be defending Tenyu, but since then it seems like you have been mostly meta-arguing with various folks. It is clear that something about the way several people on this thread passed judgment got your goat. That has been kind of your "agenda" for lack of a better term for the whole conversation. I'm honestly interested in hearing your opinions on whatever it is you don't like about this whole thing.

Again, no disrespect or challenge intended, I'd just like to invite you to say what you are wanting to say.

dps
02-15-2011, 02:21 PM
Mr Skaggs, I apologize if this sounds disrespectfully obtuse and direct, but what is your overall point in this thread? Towards the beginning of the thread you seemed to be defending Tenyu, but since then it seems like you have been mostly meta-arguing with various folks. It is clear that something about the way several people on this thread passed judgment got your goat. That has been kind of your "agenda" for lack of a better term for the whole conversation. I'm honestly interested in hearing your opinions on whatever it is you don't like about this whole thing.

Again, no disrespect or challenge intended, I'd just like to invite you to say what you are wanting to say.

No apology necessary nor any disrespect felt.

No, no one got my goat.

I am not sure what you mean by meta-arguing.

I am reading and learning, posting my observations and opinions based on facts, responding to questions asked of me and defending myself just like everybody else on this thread, on Aikiweb forums.

If my facts are wrong please let me know.

I am not defending Tenyu , that is an assumption made by others.

I am just pointing out the that what he did was what O'sensi did and to judge Tenyu's action is also to judge O'sensei's actions and many other martial artist both famous and obscure.

dps

Garth Jones
02-15-2011, 02:27 PM
So what?

This is about winning, this is about crushing enemies, seeing them driven before you and hearing the lamentation of their women. Anything goes. Real bujutsu.

A good quote, from that paragon of martialness, Conan the Barbarian.

Here's the clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V30tyaXv6EI

:-)

Demetrio Cereijo
02-15-2011, 02:37 PM
However there are barbarians who say best in life is hot water,good dentishtry and shoft lavatory paper.

:)

Garth Jones
02-15-2011, 03:18 PM
However there are barbarians who say best in life is hot water,good dentishtry and shoft lavatory paper.

:)

Now that's my kind of barbarian! I'd add antibiotics to the list!

mathewjgano
02-15-2011, 03:18 PM
I've been avoiding this thread because I'm a bit torn. On one hand it seems easy to criticize, and that so much has been given already makes me want to focus on something else. On the other hand, I look at the response by Sensei Read, and it seems clear the removal from his school is a pertinent point to bring up. It also raises the important question of how to choose a school.
I'm not sure Tenyu was being intentionally duplicitous (and suspect his view would be that he wasn't), though I can see why people wouldn't be too keen on his forming a school which seems heavily based, if not almost entirely so, on someone else's creation. Particularly considering that Tenyu was effectively removed from that other school. It begs certain questions and certainly goes against the general grain of things.
That said, I particularly liked David's remark about giving second chances. I think that's a very pertinent point to make on a forum about an art that is so often considered to be altruistic in nature (of course whether it is or not is entirely open to debate, but that is a common enough view).
So I'm left with what I always try to do, and that's to put myself in someone else's shoes. As a student looking for a teacher I would be dubious, knowing my prospective teacher had a falling out with one of his teachers. I would also not make that a deciding point since I've known many good people to have falling outs with each other. Life is sloppy; a work in progress. And for all most of us knows, we don't have all the pertinent information. We're not in the middle of this; we weren't there...I'm guessing that's what David's basic point is...that and that the desire to criticize has perhaps overshadowed certain valid points, such as the fact that any individual is free to choose their own path and to teach whatever they deem fit. If Tenyu wants to open his own school I say it's his choice. He did at least list his experience, so far as I can tell. How many people, when listing credentials, list the caveats of those credentials? None I've ever seen.
I agree with the idea that this is not a "new" style of Aikibojitsu; it's a new school. From an outsider's perspective it certainly seems very much like the "old" style, but presented from a less experienced person. I think Tenyu could have presented himself in a way that would have been more effective and that would have negated much of the criticism aimed at him...ounce of prevention and all that.
At any rate, I'm sorry if this post of mine doesn't add much. I've been living off 3 and 4 hours of sleep the last several days.
...just some impressions.
Take care folks!
Matt
p.s. I'd just like to add I think this is an interesting thread and that I hope Tenyu is taking it as something more than just empty criticism. If he is serious about being a teacher he needs to be ready for constant criticism...especially if he's teaching anything related to budo. My view is, considering the experience of some of the folks offering their thoughts, his response should probably be, "thank you, may I have another."
...My two wooden nickels offered to a person I know nothing about. Again, to him, to you all: Take care!

Toby Threadgill
02-15-2011, 03:23 PM
Your and your friends arguments in this thread, are not based on all the facts nor do they use logic.

A sophism is taken as a specious argument used for deceiving someone. It might be crafted to seem logical while actually being wrong, or it might use difficult words and complicated sentences to intimidate the audience into agreeing, or it might appeal to the audience's prejudices and emotions rather than logic; e.g., raising doubts towards the one asserting, rather than his assertion. The goal of a sophism is often to make the audience believe the writer or speaker to be smarter than he or she actually is; e.g., accusing another of sophistry for using persuasion techniques.

A sophist is a user of sophisms, i.e., an insincere person trying to confuse or deceive people. Sophists will try to persuade the audience while paying little attention to whether their argument is logical and factual.

dps

Mr Skaggs,

Facts & logic.....Hummm.

Well...As I've said before it's all pretty simple stuff. It is you and others who are using sophism to confuse the situation.

We have an individual with only cursory experience in budo who was kicked out of his dojo by his sensei for improper behavior. He perceived himself to be so enlightened that he came here to publicly announce the founding of his own martial art. It later comes to our attention, (directly from his teacher) that he had promised not to teach what he learned from his teacher without permission, and that he is essentially ignoring this promise.

People including yourself attempted to defend this person with very convoluted reasoning. One method was throwing out comparisons to Bruce Lee, Ueshiba, Akuzawa and Dan Harden. And it was you who included one definition of sophism as:

"It might be crafted to seem logical while actually being wrong,"

Well,

On the surface these seem like logical comparisons but the people you mention are not relevant and therefore wrong for many reasons, some of which are:

None could be considered beginners.

Bruce Lee was never disloyal to Yip Man. Bruce was one of only 6 students ever trained personally by Yip Man and Wong Shun Leung. Bruce Lee was also already a boxing champion before he started teaching Jun Fan boxing after moving to Seattle from Hong Kong in in 1959. (FWIW, Long ago I was a student of both Jun Fan Boxing and Wing Chun. They are NOT the same.)

Morihei Ueshiba was fully licensed in Daito ryu before founding aikido.

Neither Akuzawa nor Dan Harden are teaching anything remotely similar to Daito ryu.

So the inclusion of all these people is not factually or logically relevant to the context of this debate, consequently it sure looks like you are using sophistry to me.

You also present evidence that Mr Read "may" be offering some information publicy that would compromise his claim that the information given to our esteemed founder and OP was proprietary. This might be a legitimate subject for another discussion but in this case it is irrelevant, and is frankly little more than obfuscation. Regardless of what knowledge is offered publicly by Mr Read the fact remains that a promise was made and it is now being ignored by the OP.

The relevant facts as far as I'm concerned are:

The OP is essentially a beginner but clearly making a public claim to be an expert.

The OP was kicked out of the dojo by his teacher for inappropriate behavior with a parent during a childrens class, but obviously sees himself as experienced and mature enough to found his own martial art.

The OP broke his promise to his teacher after leaving the dojo.

My conclusion based on these facts and the clear application of logic is that this person does not manifest the expertise, maturity or character traits I demand for serious consideration as a sensei or founder of a martial art. Simple as that.

I'm off to more important pursuits. The weasle farting can now proceed as I have nothing more to add.

Toby Threadgill / TSYR

Howard Popkin
02-15-2011, 03:26 PM
Mr Skaggs,

I'm off to more important pursuits. The weasle farting can now proceed as I have nothing more to add.

Toby Threadgill / TSYR

Dude,

You said .....weasel farting :)
LOL

Demetrio Cereijo
02-15-2011, 03:34 PM
Bruce Lee was also already a boxing champion before he started teaching Jun Fan boxing after moving to Seattle from Hong Kong in in 1959.
Kiddy boxing champion in a small league.

Morihei Ueshiba was fully licensed in Daito ryu before founding aikido.
Kyoju dairy = full transmission? Then Menkyo Kaiden is?

What about Kano founding Judo at age 22 without full transmission in Kito-ryu and Tenjin Shin'yō-ryū?

George S. Ledyard
02-15-2011, 03:36 PM
Mr Skaggs,

Facts & logic.....Hummm.

Well...As I've said before it's all pretty simple stuff. It is you and others who are using sophism to confuse the situation.

We have an individual with only cursory experience in budo who was kicked out of his dojo by his sensei for improper behavior. He perceived himself to be so enlightened that he came here to publicly announce the founding of his own martial art. It later comes to our attention, (directly from his teacher) that he had promised not to teach what he learned from his teacher without permission, and that he is essentially ignoring this promise.

People including yourself attempted to defend this person with very convoluted reasoning. One method was throwing out comparisons to Bruce Lee, Ueshiba, Akuzawa and Dan Harden. And it was you who included one definition of sophism as:

"It might be crafted to seem logical while actually being wrong,"

Well,

On the surface these seem like logical comparisons but the people you mention are not relevant and therefore wrong for many reasons, some of which are:

None could be considered beginners.

Bruce Lee was never disloyal to Yip Man. Bruce was one of only 6 students ever trained personally by Yip Man and Wong Shun Leung. Bruce Lee was also already a boxing champion before he started teaching Jun Fan boxing after moving to Seattle from Hong Kong in in 1959. (FWIW, Long ago I was a student of both Jun Fan Boxing and Wing Chun. They are NOT the same.)

Morihei Ueshiba was fully licensed in Daito ryu before founding aikido.

Neither Akuzawa nor Dan Harden are teaching anything remotely similar to Daito ryu.

So the inclusion of all these people is not factually or logically relevant to the context of this debate, consequently it sure looks like you are using sophistry to me.

You also present evidence that Mr Read "may" be offering some information publicy that would compromise his claim that the information given to our esteemed founder and OP was proprietary. This might be a legitimate subject for another discussion but in this case it is irrelevant, and is frankly little more than obfuscation. Regardless of what knowledge is offered publicly by Mr Read the fact remains that a promise was made and it is now being ignored by the OP.

The relevant facts as far as I'm concerned are:

The OP is essentially a beginner but clearly making a public claim to be an expert.

The OP was kicked out of the dojo by his teacher for inappropriate behavior with a parent during a childrens class, but obviously sees himself as experienced and mature enough to found his own martial art.

The OP broke his promise to his teacher after leaving the dojo.

My conclusion based on these facts and the clear application of logic is that this person does not manifest the expertise, maturity or character traits I demand for serious consideration as a sensei or founder of a martial art. Simple as that.

I'm off to more important pursuits. The weasle farting can now proceed as I have nothing more to add.

Toby Threadgill / TSYR
Not to mention said person's attempt to set up shop NEXT DOOR to his former teacher's dojo... always big on the list of tacky things to do.

David Orange
02-15-2011, 03:54 PM
I am just pointing out the that what he did was what O'sensi did and to judge Tenyu's action is also to judge O'sensei's actions and many other martial artist both famous and obscure.


What Tenyu is doing is nothing like O Sensei did. O Sensei held a teaching license from Sokaku Takeda and he taught under Takeda's auspices for several years before beginning his own art. Jigoro Kano had menkyo in three styles of jujutsu before he created judo and he was consistently beating his teachers in randori through the principles he personally discovered and applied to their arts.

The closest comparison we could make to Tenyu is maybe Bruce Lee, who came to America to escape criminal charges, taught pretty much straigh Wing Chun for several years and then completely changed his approach after he tried to apply Wing Chun against Chinese internal arts. And Bruce Lee was dead eight years later.

So let's be clear that there is nothing similar in Bruce Lee's "starting his own style" and in O Sensei's development of aikido. Likewise, nothing similar between Bruce Lee and Jigoro Kano or most other founders of serious bujutsu and budo systems.

And Tenyu has done nothing but take someone else's work and present it as his own.

There's nothing to applaud, congratulate, admire or encourage in his efforts. He is simply a confused young man who's made a big mistake and needs to recognize that fact.

Regards.

David

David Orange
02-15-2011, 04:11 PM
Jigoro Kano had menkyo in three styles of jujutsu before he created judo and he was consistently beating his teachers in randori through the principles he personally discovered and applied to their arts.

Actually, I can't find Kano's levels in the other systems. He may not have had three menkyo, though I've heard that before...

Here's a good article on the creation of judo, though. If anyone around here has this kind of experience, I'd like to meet them.

http://judoinfo.com/kano4.htm

David

Keith Larman
02-15-2011, 04:38 PM
Wow sort of like Deja Vue in a way.

Depends on who you're comparing. O-sensei had a valid teaching license and taught with Takeda's permission. He wasn't hamon'ed. And he wasn't a beginner but an experienced and well respected martial artist in his own rite. There is zero comparison.

Of course your words carry more weight than mine because you are higher ranking than I, an outstanding member of both the Aikido and Aikiweb communities and a nice guy.:)

dps ( Aikido hobbyist )

Wow.

Howard Popkin
02-15-2011, 04:41 PM
He said weasel farting :)

Eric Joyce
02-15-2011, 04:44 PM
The closest comparison we could make to Tenyu is maybe Bruce Lee, who came to America to escape criminal charges, taught pretty much straigh Wing Chun for several years and then completely changed his approach after he tried to apply Wing Chun against Chinese internal arts. And Bruce Lee was dead eight years later.


Hey David,

Was this the fight back in the mid 60's against Wong Jack Man or something like that? If memory serves me, I think he was a tai chi or xingyiquan guy.

dps
02-15-2011, 05:03 PM
Mr Skaggs,

Facts & logic.....Hummm.

Well...As I've said before it's all pretty simple stuff. It is you and others who are using sophism to confuse the situation.....

(snip)

Simple as that.

I'm off to more important pursuits. The weasle farting can now proceed as I have nothing more to add.

Toby Threadgill / TSYR

I was not aware of the rules that framed this discussion.

My facts are irrelevant and the facts that back you up are relevant.

Well in that case you win.

dps

Tenyu
02-15-2011, 05:13 PM
Considering much of O Sensei's staffwork has been ridiculed on Aikiweb and completely ignored globally within Aikido the responses here have been predictable. I've already admitted I stole some of his lost work, but I know this is what he wanted as he failed to transmit the more advanced stuff to his students. I think Tohei got very close though. For the record I have kept less than five Aikibojitsu forms and even those are done differently. The primary nodal channels of Aikibodo are the third or fourth harmonics, which is what O sensei used the most post-war both with the staff and his ukes.

I want any lurkers to know that I can patiently and effectively teach Aikibodo, the essence of Aikido. The basic foundational skills and principles are taught from the very beginning in precise detail. I do not expect anyone to have to steal my techniques although if they eventually get to point where they can then I highly encourage them to do so! Aikido is not a koryu, nor is it simply what's done in the dojo, it is a way to correct our own psychology and to awaken the potential within us all.

Please email me at aikibodo(at)gmail.com if interested. Before doing so the only thing I ask is that the peak oil link in my OP be read.

-Tenyu

dps
02-15-2011, 05:26 PM
He is simply a confused young man who's made a big mistake and needs to recognize that fact.

David

Jigoro Kano had menkyo in three styles of jujutsu before he created judo

Actually, I can't find Kano's levels in the other systems. He may not have had three menkyo, though I've heard that before...
David

dps

C. David Henderson
02-15-2011, 05:39 PM
Considering much of O Sensei's staffwork has been ridiculed on Aikiweb and completely ignored globally within Aikido the responses here have been predictable.



So let me get this straight.

1. People on Aikiweb don't value or understand O Sensei's staff work.

Therefore,

2. People on Aikiweb have been critical about the circumstances under which you have held yourself out as a teacher of staff work.

I'm sorry, that makes no sense at all.

Maybe you could predict folks saying, "meh," but that's hardly the response you've gotten, is it?

Mark Freeman
02-15-2011, 05:42 PM
Hi Tenyu,

I'd respectfully suggest that you quit while you are behind!

regards,

Mark

Marc Abrams
02-15-2011, 05:52 PM
Hi Tenyu,

I'd respectfully suggest that you quit while you are behind!

regards,

Mark

Mark:

Careful! He might note that everybody here has poked fun of O'Sensei's behind.......

Marc Abrams

ninjaqutie
02-15-2011, 05:58 PM
Mark:

Careful! He might note that everybody here has poked fun of O'Sensei's behind.......

:D

Tenyu
02-15-2011, 06:00 PM
From Aikido Journals 2nd O Sensei DVD:

http://www.hollygroverecords.com/1955-Osaka-Transcription-page-1.jpg

http://www.hollygroverecords.com/1955-Osaka-Transcription-page-2.jpg

http://www.hollygroverecords.com/1955-Osaka-Transcription-page-3.jpg

http://www.hollygroverecords.com/1955-Osaka-Transcription-page-4.jpg

David Orange
02-15-2011, 06:03 PM
Hey David,

Was this the fight back in the mid 60's against Wong Jack Man or something like that? If memory serves me, I think he was a tai chi or xingyiquan guy.

Yes, it was Man Jack Wong, Peter Ralston's teacher. He had a lot of experience in various arts (that he learned directly from teachers--not from books). A very interesting article about that fight is floating around out there somewhere. Very convincing to me that the story in Linda Lee's book is "biased" to say the least.

http://www.lakungfu.com/sifujackmanwong.html

Best to you.

David

David Orange
02-15-2011, 06:07 PM
I was not aware of the rules that framed this discussion.

My facts are irrelevant and the facts that back you up are relevant.

Well in that case you win.


That pretty much sums it up, David. Though I'm sure Toby is not interested in "winning". It's hardly winning if, at noon, someone tells you it's midnight and you say, "No, it's noon."

You should just use relevant facts. Or even "facts" at all would be a good start.

David

Garth Jones
02-15-2011, 07:22 PM
Considering much of O Sensei's staffwork has been ridiculed on Aikiweb and completely ignored globally within Aikido the responses here have been predictable.

Ignored globally? Really? Well, let's see, Saito Sensei not only studied O'Sensei's weapons work with extreme care, he wrote the first books on the subject and taught weapons so extensively that he gave separate rank in aiki weapons. His son, the current head of the dojo in Iwama, is carrying on that tradition. And there are Iwama affiliated dojos all over over the world that continue this tradition.

Saotome Sensei thinks weapons are so important that he has developed an entire series of sword, two sword, jo, etc. kata. Not only that, but the ASU summer camp in Washington DC is an entire week devoted to what? Weapons training.

Chiba Sensei (Birankai) has developed an extensive array of weapons kata, and those folks are very serious about it. I trained with a student of Chiba Sensei for a couple of years. Whenever we got out the weapons, we put on the hockey gloves, just in case somebody made a mistake.

Hikitsuchi Sensei taught weapons as well as empty hand, and also taught bo forms that were the inspiration for what Tom Read Sensei has developed.

Ikeda Sensei teaches a weapons class at many of his seminars and, let me tell you, he is some kind of intense with a stick in his hands.

My first Japanese teacher, Akira Tohei Sensei, taught some of Saito Sensei's kata as well as an entire array of jo-tori and jo-waza.

There are many more examples......

Tenyu
02-15-2011, 09:46 PM
Garth,

I've seen most of the video available of the people you've mentioned and to my eyes there is no doubt. O Sensei himself has said looking back he didn't see anyone doing his Aikido, and I know he meant that literally. As a minor point of fact, with video proof, there are forms no one else has done since. This doesn't mutually exclude the fact that his students obviously picked up different parts of his practice but the thing with Aikido is that it is primarily a holistic way, if ‘one part' is missing than dissonance however small is introduced into the whole. The problem with martial arts is it's too easy to mask dissonance with resistive power especially when working with people. This also doesn't mean that what I think Saito Junior or the others are doing is wrong, if you've read the thread then you'll know I applaud anyone committed to helping others learn the way. I rarely see videos of the Iwama line that share the same qualities of this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9g8jOe9VyJw so I don't know how actively it's being taught or experimented with.

Being physically small, O Sensei naturally had very high frequencies and periodicities in his Aikido which made it all the more difficult for anyone to figure out what he was doing. He never activated asymptotes with the staff from what I can tell because the implicit demands of his very short jo made them impossible to contain let alone even reach in the first place. I've come to realize that I do believe he was still landing on asymptotic surfaces with the jo at strike termination, touching in the decontracted without activating in the contracted. There was nothing random about his takemusu. There is a quality of resonance in his transitions between forms which I have not seen matched since. His work was brilliantly grounded in the decontracted, which many people in modern culture confuse as death.

With the longer staff that I use now 57" which comes to the top of my shoulder, the waveforms can be amplified significantly from that of O Sensei although it's much more difficult for me, outside of extremely defined multi-level resonator forms, to match his frequencies and periodicities. The benefit of this, besides creating a beautiful art of its own, is that any error I make is amplified exponentially and becomes readily apparent to me. Even errors invisible to the naked eye can be felt within one's body. The feedback of a responsive staff is brutally honest and immediate. The staff cannot lie, therefore the staff is the ultimate uke. The staff tells me where to correct my intent.

To learn the basic principles and applications of Aikido all one needs to learn is how to use asymptotes properly with the shomen, yokomen, and tsuki. That's it. All the complex forms in my videos aren't technically necessary but I do value beauty and there's always things to be learned exploring the depths of the unknown.

-Tenyu

Cliff Judge
02-15-2011, 10:19 PM
You could probably end global warming and re-energize the environment if you practiced your staff forms in the middle of a street that was saturated with a lot of linear, downstream, what I call "traffic" energy.

Demetrio Cereijo
02-16-2011, 07:11 AM
Very convincing to me that the story in Linda Lee's book is "biased" to say the least.

Hi David,

What makes you think one version is more 'true' than the other?

Demetrio Cereijo
02-16-2011, 07:26 AM
I rarely see videos of the Iwama line that share the same qualities of this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9g8jOe9VyJw so I don't know how actively it's being taught or experimented with.

Join a Iwama style dojo I'm sure they will enjoy sharing their bo/jo work with you. If it is a Hitohiro Sensei line dojo, the better.
:D

Marc Abrams
02-16-2011, 08:13 AM
Join a Iwama style dojo I'm sure they will enjoy sharing their bo/jo work with you. If it is a Hitohiro Sensei line dojo, the better.
:D

Demetrio:

To "spare" an Iwama style dojo the awareness of their "lacking," rumor has it that the mother ship is on it's way to return him to his higher calling.........:freaky:

Marc Abrams