New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

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[David Orange]

Hi David,

What makes you think one version is more 'true' than the other?

Demetrio,

I understand that Wong was at work the next day as a waiter, running around a restaurant carrying trays of food and that the only sign he'd been in a fight was a small cut over his eye where Lee tried to jam him in they eye instead of shaking his hand. Hardly sounds like someone who had been beaten severely by Bruce Lee. At the very least, it seems like the Lee's far exaggerated both Bruce's performance and Wong's "loss".

Also, if Bruce did so well in the fight, why was he so obsessively driven to change his style completely?

And, while Lee had a good bit of Wing Chun, that was his only martial arts background, from one teacher (or two). Wong, meanwhile, had had years of training in Northern Shaolin, bagua, xing yi and taiji (though I think he only got into the higher levels of internals some years later). I think Bruce found Wong very hard to hit and exhausted himself over something more like 20 minutes (rather than three minutes) of punching air and dodging the counter strikes. Also, I do believe that Wong was known for his kicks and did not use them in this fight.

And there are other things in Lee's account that just don't ring true. They claim that Bruce was challenged by Wong for teaching foreigners, but he was not the only one teaching foreigners, by any means. And what sounds more true to me was that Bruce got on TV and said basically, "I can beat anyone in the SF Bay area." So Wong said, "Hey, I'll give it a try."

Also, look how they portrayed Wong in the movie "Dragon: the Bruce Lee Story." They made him out as much bigger, older, far more powerful than Bruce and they attributed Bruce's long-lasting back injury (from stupid weight lifting) to Wong's sneak attack, kicking Bruce in the back after Bruce had thoroughly beaten him.

Last, look at the "training" Bruce put himself through after that encounter. He basically got rid of his wing chun and put together that JKD system based on books and movies. He did work with the likes of Gene LeBell, but his own PR indicates that he had seriously studied the full range of Chinese martial arts and had discarded everything useless and incorporated all the good stuff into his own art.

In short, the Bruce Lee camp has been known for many extreme exaggerations and Bruce was known to have a very hot temper and a certain lack of self-control. Add to this his strange death at age 32 and I just don't find much to admire about him.

Add this all up against the accounts I posted earlier and I just don't see any reason to believe any of the Lee accounts at all.

That's how I see it.

Thanks.

David

[Lorel Latorilla]

Demetrio,

I understand that Wong was at work the next day as a waiter, running around a restaurant carrying trays of food and that the only sign he'd been in a fight was a small cut over his eye where Lee tried to jam him in they eye instead of shaking his hand. Hardly sounds like someone who had been beaten severely by Bruce Lee. At the very least, it seems like the Lee's far exaggerated both Bruce's performance and Wong's "loss".

Also, if Bruce did so well in the fight, why was he so obsessively driven to change his style completely?

And, while Lee had a good bit of Wing Chun, that was his only martial arts background, from one teacher (or two). Wong, meanwhile, had had years of training in Northern Shaolin, bagua, xing yi and taiji (though I think he only got into the higher levels of internals some years later). I think Bruce found Wong very hard to hit and exhausted himself over something more like 20 minutes (rather than three minutes) of punching air and dodging the counter strikes. Also, I do believe that Wong was known for his kicks and did not use them in this fight.

And there are other things in Lee's account that just don't ring true. They claim that Bruce was challenged by Wong for teaching foreigners, but he was not the only one teaching foreigners, by any means. And what sounds more true to me was that Bruce got on TV and said basically, "I can beat anyone in the SF Bay area." So Wong said, "Hey, I'll give it a try."

Also, look how they portrayed Wong in the movie "Dragon: the Bruce Lee Story." They made him out as much bigger, older, far more powerful than Bruce and they attributed Bruce's long-lasting back injury (from stupid weight lifting) to Wong's sneak attack, kicking Bruce in the back after Bruce had thoroughly beaten him.

Last, look at the "training" Bruce put himself through after that encounter. He basically got rid of his wing chun and put together that JKD system based on books and movies. He did work with the likes of Gene LeBell, but his own PR indicates that he had seriously studied the full range of Chinese martial arts and had discarded everything useless and incorporated all the good stuff into his own art.

In short, the Bruce Lee camp has been known for many extreme exaggerations and Bruce was known to have a very hot temper and a certain lack of self-control. Add to this his strange death at age 32 and I just don't find much to admire about him.

Add this all up against the accounts I posted earlier and I just don't see any reason to believe any of the Lee accounts at all.

That's how I see it.

Thanks.

David

Amen. I was never a fan of Bruce Lee, never wore a Bruce Lee shirt, and always thought he was overhyped as a martial artist. Thanks for saying what I wanted to say David.

[Lorel Latorilla]

And Tenyu should definitely quit while he's behind.

[David Orange]

Amen. I was never a fan of Bruce Lee, never wore a Bruce Lee shirt, and always thought he was overhyped as a martial artist. Thanks for saying what I wanted to say David.

Don't get me wrong. I do like certain things about Bruce Lee. His portrayal of Kato on The Green Hornet when I was about 11 years old really inspired me to learn martial arts. I went to a Halloween party as Kato and started kicking all the time.

I liked what Jackie Chan said about him. Bruce inspired Jackie to aim to affect every person in the world, to really reach outside himself and have no limits. Of course, while that can be very good....it's not always so.

I consider Bruce a tragic figure and not someone to emulate as a martial artist.

And for those who would compare Tenyu's "new style" to be like Bruce's founding of his own style, I should think that's a better warning than an example.

Best to you.

David

[Demetrio Cereijo]

Hi David,

That was a good explanation. Thanks.

I'm a bit younger than you so the Bruce Lee craze was over when I was a teenager, and I always enjoyed more the Kato (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IA8QrOAghZ0) portrayal in the Pink Panther movies than the Green Hornet series.

Regards

[Tenyu]

end global warming

http://svs.gsfc.nasa.gov/vis/a000000/a003800/a003817/2010updatewithdates_30fps.m4v

[kewms]

First rule of holes: When you're in one, quit digging.

Katherine

[Marc Abrams]

First rule of holes: When you're in one, quit digging.

Katherine

Katherine:

You are making some assumptions about a person:
1) Common Sense
2) Social Awareness
3) Not Too Narcissistic

That is just a couple of them and I am not sure that they apply in this situation.

Marc Abrams

[David Orange]

Hi David,

That was a good explanation. Thanks.

I'm a bit younger than you so the Bruce Lee craze was over when I was a teenager, and I always enjoyed more the Kato (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IA8QrOAghZ0) portrayal in the Pink Panther movies than the Green Hornet series.

Regards

Kato! Do not attack me now, Kato!

Some of the funnier scenes on film.

Thanks for that reminder!:p

David

[Marc Abrams]

Kato! Do not attack me now, Kato!

Some of the funnier scenes on film.

Thanks for that reminder!:p

David

David:

Glad you're back! Time outs are a fun, ain't they?

marc abrams

[David Orange]

David:

Glad you're back! Time outs are a fun, ain't they?


Not as much fun as trying to avoid Kato after a hard day's work, but....

Gee. I can't think of anything....

Thanks.

David

[Tenyu]

The original PO link in the OP is now defunct.

Here is an excellent 18 minute overview of energy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwNgNyiXPLk

[Tenyu]

http://www.thenation.com/video/157635/globes-limitations-how-peak-oil-threatens-economic-growth

http://www.thenation.com/video/158009/bill-mckibben-why-climate-change-most-urgent-challenge-we-face

[Tenyu]

Pictures of my uncle and me.

http://www.hollygroverecords.com/Saichi.jpg
http://www.hollygroverecords.com/Saichi2.jpg
http://www.hollygroverecords.com/Saichi3.jpg

[oisin bourke]

Tenyu,

What would your uncle think of your actions regarding your former teacher?

[Diana Frese]

Dear Tenyu,

I have read a few posts during an extremely busy time for my husband and myself, job wise and home wise, so decided to just read your OP and then later I plan to read thru the thread a little at a time and so comprehend more.

What struck my interest at first was the mention of the oil crisis. We know how important the Japanese baths are, I'm sure they still are, though this was 1974 that came to my mind, although my family is very concerned now with the cost of heating our own home, We have been greatly helped by fallen trees from "Mother Nature" although we miss the trees.

With the "oil shock" back then, the baths opened an hour later, which made it much harder for people who worked evenings and nights.

They might have closed earlier,also, if I remember correctly. You might want to study if there are any Japanese correlaries that would be useful here, although public ofuro don't seem to be practical in the West, hot tubs are mostly private!

Also the cost to the environment of electric vis a vis central heating, in different climate zones in the U.S I remember Tokyo, which didn't seem to be as cold as New England with the kotatsu heated table with blanket to warm the feet, and trying to curl up under it when it got cold. Hard for a tall person...

I hope someday you can have a reconciliation with your teacher, but in the meantime I noticed pictures of your uncle, which show he is a martial artist. I think posting his pictures shows a great love, and maybe thru him you can solve your problem in some way.

On the merit of your description of the kata alone, the suitability for all types of people is extremely valuable these days.( I will watch it when I have a chance, but we only have the slow dial up with its long stops and short starts. then sometimes a video will replay faster) We all need mental, physical and spiritual stability in these turbulent times.

Sorry to be writing a bit old fashioned, but I know this thread contains delicate issues and I'm trying to be cautious. I will continue to read in it.

[David Orange]

Pictures of my uncle and me.

http://www.hollygroverecords.com/Saichi.jpg

Quite an impressive looking man.

Why didn't you stay with him and inherit his system?

David

[mathewjgano]

Something that strikes me as odd about this thread is the lack of discussion about approach to aikido or staff. Given the political aspects brought up here I can understand it to a degree, but I don't see how peak oil, etc. are relevant to "non-aikido martial traditions," or even aikido martial traditions. I'm also curious about the point behind posting pictures...other than possibly to show pre-existing martial experience?
I'm not trying to be negative here. It just strikes me as a little odd and my curiosity has got the better of me (I'm putting out my impressions in order to have them put in check where others see fit to do so).
I'm also hoping to spark conversation about aiki and staff. I can't claim much, if anything, on the "internal" aspects, but what I have experienced certainly points to the power of weapons training in developing such qualities. I remember a small leap occuring after I began really focusing on ken and jo work, particularly when I began looking at each "part" as one long continuation of cut(s).
At any rate, I'd like to hear more about Tenyu's understanding of staffwork and/or aiki, since that seems to be at the heart of the thread.
Take care,
Matt

[Tenyu]

Tenyu,

What would your uncle think of your actions regarding your former teacher?

Oisin,

I suggest you reread this thread because I've made myself very clear on the matter already. Many people have continued to make comments while only being aware of 3% of the facts. It's ridiculous to give advice to anyone in such a position. My former relationship with Tom is private.

-Tenyu

[Tenyu]

Quite an impressive looking man.

Why didn't you stay with him and inherit his system?

David

His dojo's in my family's small hometown of Miyako. I never felt I needed to move there because he referred us to Kaicho and since then I've been doing Aikido.

[Tenyu]

Something that strikes me as odd about this thread is the lack of discussion about approach to aikido or staff. Given the political aspects brought up here I can understand it to a degree, but I don't see how peak oil, etc. are relevant to "non-aikido martial traditions," or even aikido martial traditions. I'm also curious about the point behind posting pictures...other than possibly to show pre-existing martial experience?
I'm not trying to be negative here. It just strikes me as a little odd and my curiosity has got the better of me (I'm putting out my impressions in order to have them put in check where others see fit to do so).
I'm also hoping to spark conversation about aiki and staff. I can't claim much, if anything, on the "internal" aspects, but what I have experienced certainly points to the power of weapons training in developing such qualities. I remember a small leap occuring after I began really focusing on ken and jo work, particularly when I began looking at each "part" as one long continuation of cut(s).
At any rate, I'd like to hear more about Tenyu's understanding of staffwork and/or aiki, since that seems to be at the heart of the thread.
Take care,
Matt

Matt,

I'm using this platform to inform people about peak oil because it's something that'll affect everyone's lives in the near future yet almost no one knows of it. The house is on fire and I'm giving the opportunity for people to find out about it if they want to.

I could talk all day about Aikido but that wouldn't be efficient. Is there anything you'd like to know specifically about the staff or Aikido in general?

-Tenyu

[David Orange]

His dojo's in my family's small hometown of Miyako. I never felt I needed to move there because he referred us to Kaicho and since then I've been doing Aikido.

Have you discussed your recent actions with him or with Kaicho Nakamura?

David

[mathewjgano]

I'm using this platform to inform people about peak oil because it's something that'll affect everyone's lives in the near future yet almost no one knows of it. The house is on fire and I'm giving the opportunity for people to find out about it if they want to.
Well, I agree that's an important topic! And I don't personally have a problem with going off-topic. Conversations do that (probably mine as much as anyone's). Still, I believe you began by saying you didn't want to get into peak oil and instead wanted to talk about your understanding of aiki.
Mostly I was trying to steer the conversation back to aiki. We now all know a bit about your history; you've been given a variety of advice based on that; let's move on and discuss that thing we like to do. To me and my beginner's mind, that's the gist of the thing anyway (minus the talking itself, for the most part).

I could talk all day about Aikido but that wouldn't be efficient. Is there anything you'd like to know specifically about the staff or Aikido in general?

Efficient at what though? And how would I know where to begin to ask the questions most pertinent to your understanding?
Well, how would you describe your approach to teaching Aikido? What were planning for your first class? I don't have much experience, but I typically flew by the seat of my pants. I taught kids though so I could "fake it" when I had to (adults don't generally respond well to shiko-roll-freeze-tag as an appropriate Aikido activity:D ). Because I taught kids (6-12 y/o range) I focused more on basic coordination and ukemi safety...er..not to mention "fun," for without it, young kids will get distracted.
We did regular boktoh practice every class (mostly shomenuchi practice) and one or two of the kids began learning jo kata with me before class, but that's about it. My understanding of weapons is fairly limited.
...As for "internal" focused stuff, just furitama and torifuneundo as warm-ups.

[akiy]

And I don't personally have a problem with going off-topic.
Let's try to keep threads on-topic, please, if we can -- especially when the tangential subject is off of the topic of aikido/budo. Everyone is welcome (and encouraged) to start new threads regarding new topics at any time, of course.

-- Jun

[Tenyu]

Have you discussed your recent actions with him or with Kaicho Nakamura?

David

This is none of your business nor that of the public.

This is also my last notice that I will not discuss private matters here.

[Tenyu]

Matthew,

If you can link me to a video of yourself then I can give you advice on what to change. That's probably the easiest way.

The first class for beginners in Aikibodo is learning basic variations of the yokomen.

-Tenyu

[David Orange]

This is none of your business nor that of the public.

This is also my last notice that I will not discuss private matters here.

Hmm. Why did you post your uncle's picture, then, on a controversial thread? You brought both him and Kaicho Nakamura into the discussion. I take it from your sharp reaction that either you haven't discussed it with them or they gave you rather embarrassing responses.

And you've brought out a lot of other "personal" matters about yourself on this same thread. And it shows that pretty much everything you do and think is tied up in relation to Tom Read, based on his ideas and the training you undertook with him. So....what are people to think?

Also, really, you should do another thread on Peak Oil (which I've been studying since 1974) on the Open Topics forum.

Best of luck.

David

[Diana Frese]

Sorry, I was one of the ones who went off topic. A suggestion, though, if you have met or can meet Saotome Sensei, he has been concerned with the environmental issues since before he came to the USA. You could check out his book, Aikido and the Harmony of Nature, which mentions this commitment of his, contact him possibly directly or maybe thru Francis Takahashi, George S. Ledyard or one of the others who know him..... Anyway it's just a suggestion.

I'm going to read more of the posts on this thread, and I'm interested in the bo, not just the jo which I studied a little. And I'm almost 67 and have problems with ukemi (back and knee injuries probably not from Aikido) so my husband suggests I try these traditional weapons. We have his late brother's bo somewhere among the stuff from both my family and his. This could be an opportunity for me health-wise.

But, I'm relatively new to AikiWeb and am just beginning to tap into the rich resources of available videos...

[Tenyu]

Hmm. Why did you post your uncle's picture, then, on a controversial thread? You brought both him and Kaicho Nakamura into the discussion. I take it from your sharp reaction that either you haven't discussed it with them or they gave you rather embarrassing responses.


A+ on bait quality. Sharing family lineage is not the same as sharing history of private family affairs.


And it shows that pretty much everything you do and think is tied up in relation to Tom Read, based on his ideas and the training you undertook with him. So....what are people to think?

I think you need to reread what I've posted in the thread. Over 90% of my training timewise in the Staff has been by myself from the very first day of stick class which was held only once a week. The other six days was done on my own after regular taijitsu classes, as it should be. I know most Aikidoists have a hard time understanding the idea of independent study but that's whats required if one is to strive for the Aikido of the founder. I have already credited Tom for teaching me the concepts, and now that his book is published these concepts are available to anyone who wants to learn more about them. What really matters though is the application in real life, and that is something I mostly taught myself. I'll reiterate for the last time that Aikibodo fundamentally differs from Aikibojitsu in application. I can prove this fact both through transcription and video. But as I said I'm not here to compare me to anyone. If others want to learn what I have to offer then I'm giving them that opportunity. From my informed ‘opinion' my work is the closest to O Sensei's that I know of. I know I'm on a forum filled with older established teachers who would never dare learn from someone much younger especially after being ignorantly accused of koryu heresy, but I know there're lurkers reading this so it's not all for naught.


Also, really, you should do another thread on Peak Oil (which I've been studying since 1974) on the Open Topics forum.

And you never felt compelled to attempt to share this on Aikiweb Open Topics before? The Koryu of Olduvai Gorge's Kepan?

[Tenyu]

This formal picture in front of the Shinzen is almost exclusively reserved for 4th dans and above. I was very honored when Kaicho had it taken on my last day at honbu.

http://www.hollygroverecords.com/KaichoTenyu.jpg

[Tenyu]

I taught kids (6-12 y/o range) I focused more on basic coordination and ukemi safety...er..not to mention "fun," for without it, young kids will get distracted.
We did regular boktoh practice every class (mostly shomenuchi practice) and one or two of the kids began learning jo kata with me before class, but that's about it. My understanding of weapons is fairly limited.

For about six months I had my own private stick class at Northcoast Aikido. I had two students 11 and 12 years old who'd been training in Aikido for at least five years. They're extremely intelligent and were totally captivated by the art when they first saw me training. Once my class was formalized separately from the kid's taijitsu class, I was surprised how fast they started catching on. After a while I was giving them difficult 360 rotation short forms which most adults at the dojo wouldn't even attempt to try! They loved it. I didn't have to give homework because the parents told me they were practicing on their own every day of the week! I mention this because I don't want anyone to think independent study is something to be afraid of, it's unbelievably compelling and exciting regardless of age or physical ability. All the questions whether Aikido is real or works or not disappears instantly. You no longer have to worry about disingenuous or passive aggressive ukes, in fact the staff will eventually teach you how to effectively work with such people and have fun in the process!

Two years of staff provides more than 20 years of status quo Aikido, a sobering yet honest assessment.

[graham christian]

For about six months I had my own private stick class at Northcoast Aikido. I had two students 11 and 12 years old who'd been training in Aikido for at least five years. They're extremely intelligent and were totally captivated by the art when they first saw me training. Once my class was formalized separately from the kid's taijitsu class, I was surprised how fast they started catching on. After a while I was giving them difficult 360 rotation short forms which most adults at the dojo wouldn't even attempt to try! They loved it. I didn't have to give homework because the parents told me they were practicing on their own every day of the week! I mention this because I don't want anyone to think independent study is something to be afraid of, it's unbelievably compelling and exciting regardless of age or physical ability. All the questions whether Aikido is real or works or not disappears instantly. You no longer have to worry about disingenuous or passive aggressive ukes, in fact the staff will eventually teach you how to effectively work with such people and have fun in the process!

Two years of staff provides more than 20 years of status quo Aikido, a sobering yet honest assessment.

Hi Tenyu.
Good luck with your aims. I like what you say about independent study, something again that can be easily misinterpreted. I have helped people with studying, be it maths, physics or whatever and just like in Aikido I don't take their complaints of not understanding as fact. The not understanding is fact but the reason they give is never true.

How do I know this? Because a winning student is happy, enjoying the study and practice, and learning. When they are not then that happiness is replaced by certain phenomena and seeing these phenomena tells me what type of study problem they are having. Aikido wise-- where their Ki locked up or blocked so to speak.

Now if the person actually wants to improve as a student, so that they can be more able themselves rather than keep getting stuck and not knowing what to do. So I keep stopping them every time one of these phenomena turn up and get them to to realize that phenomena means something and once they start recognising it in themselves they then understand what to do about it in order to get to an understanding in their studying .

Thus they learn they can be a student and be their own supervisor (or teacher if you like). Guess what? Their confidence and willingness to study ANYTHING shoots up.

I understand by what you write you have learned a lot by using the staff according to certain principles and want others who are interested to benefit as you have. That sounds good to me.

I would say though that there are more 'weapons' than just the staff in Aikido and wonder if you think concentrating on the sword according to it's principles would have the same effect?

Also I would say that a person really concentrating on one aspect and taking it to the nth degree would also learn a lot.

Anyway you remind me of someone who has had a good realization on something and that's all good.

Have fun.G.

[Tenyu]

Graham,

I have no problem with the sword or the bokken, but their applications are severely limited in relation to the staff. A sword by the very nature of its construction can only be used rarefactively in mostly non-precessional planes whereas my practice with the staff is pretty much completely compressive now and open to any achievable asymptotic surface. For the purposes that the katana was originally designed I see a utilitarian benefit for nage to be psychologically ‘distanced by rarefaction' from uke. I've only slaughtered chickens once but I learned I wasn't giving them enough space out of my desire to do it right the first time. A very high-level Aikidoist friend of mine has done thousands in his life and he told me you have to learn how to distance yourself while maintaining energetic connection and cutting the chickens. I just now thought of this parallel but it's very applicable to how the form befits the function in this case.

The opposite is true for the non-lethal side of Aikido. The main purpose to promote mutual advancement of life, nage should intend on complete connection ‘without distance' with uke. This could very well be an argument that almost all Aikido training with the staff should therefore be done compressively. With my own practice I've switched to using the heaviest grade Appalachian hickory, which I never thought I'd do before, and it demands compressive action to activate asymptotes even while stepping backwards and facing/striking forwards - ‘traditionally' a rarefactive situation. I would like to clarify, as this is new terminology for most here, that asymptotic activation when done correctly does not hurt uke in any way. I've only personally experienced it once myself in the uncommon position between nage and the ground and I couldn't feel anything, I was actually ‘paralyzed' frozen for a few seconds until the asymptote dissipated. The activation in the contracted is one of the central functions with Aikibodo and its not as difficult as it looks. I might have confused people before but I'd also like to clarify the concussions I used to get was not from the stick making contact with my head but from the dissonant ‘shockwave' of an improperly activated asymptote reverberating back through my arms into my head at strike termination. This mistake can only happen at very high levels of energy so it's not something anyone should worry about after reading this. Safety is always first priority with me.

Graham, as you point out regarding ‘happiness', if uke either staff or person is treated in a way that doesn't introduce dissonance, then no dissonance(harm) can reflect back into nage. This is not aiki-bunny fluff at all, it is far beyond it and it is what O Sensei was trying to teach perhaps moreso in the decontracted. Luckily this direct manifesting contact with infinity requires deep compassion in order to achieve it.

[lbb]

Let it go, people. Everyone's had their say. Time to move on, nothing to see here.

[oisin bourke]

The points brought up in this thread RE integrity and permission to teach propriatry knowledge are excellent, but a lot of Aikido (and Koryu) people are attending seminars given by Dan Harden and Minoru Akuzawa, both of whom are teaching material based on teachings received from Daito Ryu groups. They may not have taken Keppan, but ,to the best of my knowledge, All Daito Ryu groups teach their members on the assumption that they will not teach non-members without permission and/or appropriate certification..

Akuzawa and Dan both have undeniable skills, but, in principle, how is what they are doing different from Tenyu is doing? Of course if they have received the appropriate license/permission, this is a non-issue, but it's probably worth clarifying.

I REALLY don't want to start a flame war and I have no personal "thing" against Dan, Akuzawa or anyone else, honestly, but does no-one else see a dichotomy here? Or am I missing something?

Not that anyone cares but...

I've talked to some of the parties mentioned above and they have addressed some of the concerns stated in my post. Looking back, I don't think this was an appropriate place to bring this topic up. It certainly wasn't appropriate to mention the above people in this context , so I apologise to them. I think Tenyu's actions can stand or fall on their own merits.

Regards to all,

Oisin Bourke

[Tenyu]

From the reading I've done on Aikiweb it seems that Internal has yet to be defined or described with much precision. I previously said true internal power in the context of Aikido requires singular action resonant with the source of creation. This is fundamental as O Sensei said many times, but he never explained how it manifests physically. I think he confused a lot of people too by using some techniques deceptively external in appearance. In reality there's little capacity for external in Internal action.

I can only go by my own experience here by stating that learning grounded contracted asymptotic activation is the entry point to everything Internal. The isolated action itself disregarding the forms attached to them is the exact same thing others here have referred to as pole shaking. In order to activate the staff its placement is limited to a very specific range of locations for each form. I'll state common sense here and note nage's entire physical orientation to uke(staff) is highly defined as well, but it's incredibly more defined than what Aikidoists are accustomed to even including work with a rigorous semi non-compliant uke or a test in a dojo. The average weapons of all the major branches of Aikido, as is openly admitted to here also isn't conducive to learning Internal action. Despite the ‘formlessness' of O Sensei's lost freestyle work it's ironically packed with preformal precision. The two or three staff katas that exist in the status quo today ironically have visually ‘precise' forms yet are usually absent of resonance, phase lead, periodicity, exponential transitions and perhaps most importantly grounded asymptotic activation, all the characteristics of Internal Aikido.

In order to ground and activate an asymptote all the preceding action, the form, becomes predetermined. When I discovered how to activate I had to adjust all of my work accordingly in a matter of days. It took a few weeks maybe a month before I could consciously stop making corrections and the new kinesthetic memory matched the implicit line and structures of Internal's demands. My first two years with the staff was external but there's no reason anyone should have to go through that. Aikido must be Internal in order to be holistic.

[Tenyu]

> Aikido is fundamentally a striking art.
> To throw uke, one needs to strike with uke.

Tenyu,

Could elaborate a little more? Thanks

regards,
Daniel

Daniel,

In every Aikido throw nage should be striking with uke at a grounded asymptote. I know it's difficult to visualize this with certain techniques especially in moments where uke isn't physically connected to nage. It's a lot more subtle than the staff because it requires so little power in comparison that the strike can appear invisible. It's very obvious though to any practitioner with over half a year of good weapons study.

[Tenyu]

Tenyu,

I appreciate your reply, but I can't say I understand your terminology. I know you've used it before in the forum, but googling for the term I could only find 4 hits, one of them being this thread. Would you care to elaborate a little more and perhaps tell us why you chose to you use it? Thanks in advance.

regards,
Daniel

I googled asymptote and got almost 3 million hits?

In a proper strike, the final 'line' can't be hit without activation so it can't be said that the line is ever reached. My next video will show high frequency asymptotic activation much better than my previous ones.

[JW]

I googled asymptote and got almost 3 million hits?

In a proper strike, the final 'line' can't be hit without activation so it can't be said that the line is ever reached.

Googling asymptote or activation could never help with this-- it is not conventional usage.
There are lots of ways to think about what a strike is and why it works I guess.
When I strike a bag, the target is most certainly reached. And according to the bag's motion, it looks like it has been activated. Pretty simple, but I'm a simplistic kind of guy I guess. I could talk about striking in more complex terms but I'm not sure if it means much to anyone.

Daniel, my answer-- I did TKD before, and I looked at it from a syllabus point of view. In TKD we worked with strikes from just over leg's distance away to just under arm's length away. Nothing closer. Aikido had stand-up grappling. Seemed like I would be a very incomplete martial artist if I couldn't at least do that.
Also the idea of not being prosecuted for self-defense seemed nice.

[itaborai83]

Once again, thanks for the responses, I´m headed for the countryside during the carnaval, but I´m looking forward to check the forum soon again. Aikiweb is such an amazing community!

Googling asymptote or activation could never help with this-- it is not conventional usage.
There are lots of ways to think about what a strike is and why it works I guess.
When I strike a bag, the target is most certainly reached. And according to the bag's motion, it looks like it has been activated. Pretty simple, but I'm a simplistic kind of guy I guess. I could talk about striking in more complex terms but I'm not sure if it means much to anyone.

Daniel, my answer-- I did TKD before, and I looked at it from a syllabus point of view. In TKD we worked with strikes from just over leg's distance away to just under arm's length away. Nothing closer. Aikido had stand-up grappling. Seemed like I would be a very incomplete martial artist if I couldn't at least do that.
Also the idea of not being prosecuted for self-defense seemed nice.

Jonathan,

Thanks for the explanation, I´m sure I´ll eventually get it. I think I must be a simplistic kinda of guy myself, but if you ever get to talk about striking in more complex terms, I´d love to hear it.

I´m under the impression that the stance usually used in Aikido tends to be lower than the ones used in TKD. If this is so, do you think it gets in the way of how you usually set up your kicks?

I googled asymptote and got almost 3 million hits?

In a proper strike, the final 'line' can't be hit without activation so it can't be said that the line is ever reached. My next video will show high frequency asymptotic activation much better than my previous ones.

Tenyu,

I had googled for "grounded asymptote" (with quotes) and didn´t find anything useful. I´m a newcomer on the forum and all, but, at least to me, your lingo seems a bit exotic. What you´re describing might indeed be as obvious as you mention, but to me (and my poor dominion over the English language), the idea isn´t getting through. Anyway, looking forward for your video.

Good police departments train in Yokomen and a few variations for stunning/debilitating.

As far as coming from another "art" I don't know if you'd count boxing. But, I went to Aikido for police work, multiple attacker, and greater awareness. I got a whole lot more than I was intentionally looking for!(In a good way!) :)

John,

I´d definitely count box as a striking art. When all hell breaks loose, an 1 - 2 combo can save your life, and let´s be honest, with you being an officer and all, my well being might someday depend on your ability of knocking some teeth loose.

[Tenyu]

Googling asymptote or activation could never help with this-- it is not conventional usage.
There are lots of ways to think about what a strike is and why it works I guess.
When I strike a bag, the target is most certainly reached. And according to the bag's motion, it looks like it has been activated. Pretty simple, but I'm a simplistic kind of guy I guess. I could talk about striking in more complex terms but I'm not sure if it means much to anyone.


Have you read all my previous posts? Including mine I've given five video examples and concretely identified what contracted asymptotic activation looks like.

When you hit a bag you're striking with your hand at uke. With the staff, I'm striking with uke at a grounded asymptote in space. In Aikido, I never strike at uke. Any atemi*(a physically unconnected throw) I throw are never aimed at uke in the particular but at upstream asymptotes surrounding uke that absolutely determine all of uke's options. For this to happen all of nage's atemi and power applications must be ahead of uke's power applications by 90 degrees, the location of total non-resistance, in time. You can see this mapped out in the graphs on this page: http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14719 The Y-axis represents the power applications of both nage and uke. 1 and -1 are exactly the same, they both represent peak applied power(contraction) and 0 represents a return to peak potential power(decontraction). I copied these graphs from memory after one of the first classes I attended of Tom's where he drew this on the chalkboard. It's also in his new book Aikido Aikibojitsu and The Structure of Natural Law.

This is why fighting and blocking are impossible in Aikido. Referring to the same graph linked above, fighting requires nage's and uke's lines to intersect at 0, and for their peak power applications to collide together at the same time, the definition of absolute resistance.

*Atemi can be used as a transitional resonator(non-activation) leading up to the throw/strike or it can be used as a complete throw/strike(activation) in itself. The asymptotic placement in space is different depending on the type of atemi.

[Tenyu]

Tenyu,

I had googled for "grounded asymptote" (with quotes) and didn´t find anything useful. I´m a newcomer on the forum and all, but, at least to me, your lingo seems a bit exotic. What you´re describing might indeed be as obvious as you mention, but to me (and my poor dominion over the English language), the idea isn´t getting through. Anyway, looking forward for your video.


Grounded means nage is firmly planted in the ground. If nage isn't firmly planted in the ground nor aligned correctly with the asymptote, the asymptote will be dissonant and the staff(uke) can easily injure nage with high frequency activations.

[crbateman]

If nage isn't firmly planted in the ground nor aligned correctly with the asymptote, the asymptote will be dissonant and the staff(uke) can easily injure nage with high frequency activations.

:hypno: 1:00am is certainly not the right time to try to get my head around this one... ;)

[David Board]

Grounded means nage is firmly planted in the ground. If nage isn't firmly planted in the ground nor aligned correctly with the asymptote, the asymptote will be dissonant and the staff(uke) can easily injure nage with high frequency activations.

Dude, no offence but go down to Hey Juan and get a burrito to kill the munchies. I can not decipher what you are trying to say.

[Walter Martindale]

Grounded means nage is firmly planted in the ground. If nage isn't firmly planted in the ground nor aligned correctly with the asymptote, the asymptote will be dissonant and the staff(uke) can easily injure nage with high frequency activations.

Asymptote is a mathematical concept. it's a line that a curve approaches but never intersects. e.g., the asymptote for y=1/x is a straight line at y=0.

What are you trying to say in plain, jargon-free English?
W

[dps]

Asymptote is a mathematical concept. it's a line that a curve approaches but never intersects. e.g., the asymptote for y=1/x is a straight line at y=0.

What are you trying to say in plain, jargon-free English?
W

Maybe this will help you understand what he is talking about.

'Aikido Aikibojitsu and the Structure of Natural Law'

by John Thomas Read

http://www.aikibojitsu.com/files/Asymptotic_Surface_2.pdf

"Surfaces of Intent
Suppose someone is running across a large
field and is suddenly instructed to turn right (make
a right angle turn.) He will find it impossible to do
so; his actual path will be a curve. If he is relatively
weak, the curve will be more gradual; if he is
relatively strong, the curve will be more sharp.
If stronger and stronger individuals were to
attempt this, their efforts would produce sharper
curves, closer approximations to a right angle. At
the same time, the curves of stronger individuals
would become closer and closer together (the
difference between the attempt curves becoming
less and less (Figure 09.)
As the strongest individuals attempt the turn,
it becomes apparent that a limit of curvature is
being approached, a limit that is, in the end, fundamentally
beyond human strength to surpass.

"An asymptotic boundary is a limiting surface that is
only approachable, never crossable, as impenetrable
as hardest steel, yet without any real physical
substance whatsoever.

"On a theoretical level, the set of technical
moves of Aikido and Aikibojitsu are based upon
nage continually moving in such a way as to occupy
space that is denied to uke by asymptotic boundary.
Since uke cannot pass through the boundary, nage
is essentially protected by the boundary's impenetrable,
reflective asymptotic surface.1

"When nage moves in such a way as to deny
uke’s center of mass access, nage’s technical
positions are buttressed by the upstream causal
power of asymptotic determinative structure.
Ueshiba Sensei was a true master of this, able to
control multiple armed attackers by continually
moving to space simultaneously denied to all of
them.

"1. More precisely, it is uke's center of mass that is
blocked by asymptotic boundary. It might still be possible
for uke to reach through or perhaps strike through
the boundary (albeit relatively inefficiently) with arms or
weapon. Note that such a reach or strike would itself be
bound by asymptotic determinative surfaces.

Waveguides are used to control extremely high
(microwave) frequency energy by deliberately
using energy's reluctance to stay within the
conduit's metallic structure. The desire of the
energy to avoid re-entering the conductive walls of
a waveguide provides a means to guide and contain
it. In a waveguide, energy is introduced into the
guidant conduit by a small antenna placed within
the conduit, from which the input energy radiates,
propagating down the waveguide toward the ends,
bouncing off the walls as it goes.


One interesting thing about waveguides is
that, if properly designed, the waveguide’s ends
may be open, but there still will be no loss of
energy from the system! Such a waveguide would
be constructed of an actual tube of metal, open on
both ends. Even if very high levels of energy are
input to the waveguide by way of a precisely placed
transmitting antenna, the input energy will not
leave the waveguide structure through the open
ends!


This is because the open ends of the
waveguide act as asymptotic mirrors to the
energy that is travelling toward them, even though
there is no physical mirror, or for that matter any
conductive material there at all. Energy that
reaches the open ends of the waveguide finds in the
‘nothing’ at the end, an infinite impedance, and is
reflected back the other way.1

The notion of asymptotic reflection and
precise placement of the energy generator, is not
limited to electrical waveguides. Aikibojitsu treats
the staff as a resonant entity, a carrier of energy that
doesn't differ in principle from a waveguide.
In Aikibojitsu, choice and location of hand
position, is precisely determined by nodal location
of harmonic preformal wave patterns within the
staff. Control of high levels of energy in the staff is
based upon asymptotic reflection and nonresistant
redirection of energy both outward into
space, and inward to asymptotic ground.
Hand placement and sequencing, with respect
to the waveforms of the resonant staff, is called
Tracking Pattern, a matter considered in detail in
the chapter Technical Aikibojitsu II.
The Asymptotic Channel."


1. Asymptotic reflection from the open end of the conduit
is based upon wavelength of the energy to be contained.
Length of conduit, and precise placement of the
radiant antenna are calculated with respect to the wavelength
of the energy to be contained.
Voltage
Waveguide (metallic conduit)
Current
Impedance = Voltage/Current
At either end of the waveguide, where current is 0, impedance is infinite,
causing energy to be reflected back the other way."
dps

[dps]

Daniel,

In every Aikido throw nage should be striking with uke at a grounded asymptote. I know it's difficult to visualize this with certain techniques especially in moments where uke isn't physically connected to nage. It's a lot more subtle than the staff because it requires so little power in comparison that the strike can appear invisible. It's very obvious though to any practitioner with over half a year of good weapons study.

Doesn't the standing wave in both examples differ.

One is open to space and thus reflected and the other the wave is terminated to ground and not reflected.

dps

[Tenyu]

Doesn't the standing wave in both examples differ.

One is open to space and thus reflected and the other the wave is terminated to ground and not reflected.

dps

What examples are you referring to?

[Tenyu]

Asymptote is a mathematical concept. it's a line that a curve approaches but never intersects. e.g., the asymptote for y=1/x is a straight line at y=0.

What are you trying to say in plain, jargon-free English?
W

Asymptote is no more difficult to understand than infinity. If there were a jargon-free word that has the same meaning as asymptote I would use it.

[raul rodrigo]

Asymptote is no more difficult to understand than infinity. If there were a jargon-free word that has the same meaning as asymptote I would use it.

Let's be clear: "asymptote" is Tom Read's word, not yours. You're using it because he used it.

[Tenyu]

Let's be clear: "asymptote" is Tom Read's word, not yours. You're using it because he used it.

No one can own an asymptote nor the word asymptote. Nor can one own Aikido nor the word Aikido. Tom only described natural law, he didn't actually create natural law. :freaky:

[raul rodrigo]

No one can own an asymptote nor the word asymptote. Nor can one own Aikido nor the word Aikido. Tom only described natural law, he didn't actually create natural law. :freaky:

I didn't say he owned it. I said he used it first and you're using it because you learned it from him.

[raul rodrigo]

If one is in debt to someone, then it is only good manners to admit it. It's not as if you picked the idea up off the sidewalk or found it independently. Give credit where it's due.

[Tenyu]

If one is in debt to someone, then it is only good manners to admit it. It's not as if you picked the idea up off the sidewalk or found it independently. Give credit where it's due.

Tom didn't create the use of asymptotes in martial arts. He used the word to accurately describe the action. I've said this several times already. You can see for yourself in post #1 and #14 in the thread titled New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff listed in the Non-Aikido Martial Traditions. I suggest you read all of my posts before commenting to me again because it's bad manners to lie.

Direct quote of mine: Read Sensei taught me the theoretical principles of Aiki..

RIF :freaky:

[Tenyu]

Raul,

David in this very thread linked to Tom's book and quoted his descriptions of asymptotes!

I question your motives.

-Tenyu

[Marc Abrams]

If one is in debt to someone, then it is only good manners to admit it. It's not as if you picked the idea up off the sidewalk or found it independently. Give credit where it's due.

Raul:

You are wasting your time. The poster's actions and comments on his values, honesty, integrity,..... have been clearly highlighted on his thread about a "new" bojutsu style. Kind of like going to work and there is a slow down in front of you because people are slowing down to look at a car crash ;) ....

Regards,

marc abrams

[raul rodrigo]

Raul:

You are wasting your time. The poster's actions and comments on his values, honesty, integrity,..... have been clearly highlighted on his thread about a "new" bojutsu style. Kind of like going to work and there is a slow down in front of you because people are slowing down to look at a car crash ;) ....

Regards,

marc abrams

Yes, Mark, I think I will take your advice. Thanks.

best,

RAUL

[akiy]

Hi folks,

Please watch the tone of your posts. Thank you.

-- Jun

[Tenyu]

Marc, Michael, Raul,

Please do not post again in this thread unless you have something significant to add to the discussion of Internal Aikido. Ad homs are not welcome as Jun has said many times.

thanks,
Tenyu

[Tenyu]

Hi folks,

Please watch the tone of your posts. Thank you.

-- Jun

Beat me to it. Thanks Jun...

[Marc Abrams]

Tenyu:

1) Jun cut and pasted some posts from another thread.

2) What discussion of "internal Aikido"? Not the name of this thread.

3) I stated nothing directly at you. I was merely making a analogy to the direction of where this thread went.

4) Thank you for trying to direct me as to what I should do, or not do.

Regards,

Marc Abrams

[Tenyu]

Tenyu:
3) I stated nothing directly at you. I was merely making a analogy to the direction of where this thread went.

Regards,

Marc Abrams

You referred to me directly in post #306 of this thread.

The poor quality of your posts, both in maturity and tone, are transparent.

[Marc Abrams]

You referred to me directly in post #306 of this thread.

The poor quality of your posts, both in maturity and tone, are transparent.

Tenyu:

You call somebody a liar, you are now continuing in that direction towards me. I will ask that Jun take continued notice of that. Be careful what you start. In my own opinion, you started out, in over your head. You might want to change course.

marc abrams

[Tenyu]

Tenyu:

You call somebody a liar, you are now continuing in that direction towards me. I will ask that Jun take continued notice of that. Be careful what you start. In my own opinion, you started out, in over your head. You might want to change course.

marc abrams

Marc,

You don't have to admit you made a mistake. Please take your own advice though and refrain from posting further ad homs, it's a waste of time.

-Tenyu

[Gary David]

Tenyu
One way to settle this and add value to your position to put your new art and skill on the line at one of the Dog Brothers gatherings here in So Cal. If your stuff works there you will gain creditability. Stick fighting, including jo length is part of what they do. Look them up....
Gary

[dps]

What examples are you referring to?

The solo kata, the jo is not touching anything except the air. The wave is generated by you from the ground is reflected back to ground through you.

Technique with uke, uke is grounded and any wave generated by you, from the ground is not reflected back to you but is returned to ground through uke.


dps

[Tenyu]

Tenyu
One way to settle this and add value to your position to put your new art and skill on the line at one of the Dog Brothers gatherings here in So Cal. If your stuff works there you will gain creditability. Stick fighting, including jo length is part of what they do. Look them up....
Gary

Hi Gary,

I have no desire to injure anyone, and the most martially powerful people I know likewise have no desire either. I mean this literally when I say compassion is the true source of power. I may not gain students I would've otherwise attained if I were to compete in Dog Brothers or other fighting events, but it runs counter to what I believe in. The Staff is a sacred practice for me and I'll only use it for self-defense if absolutely necessary. I have created some of the most lethal staff forms in history but I'll never show them publicly in demonstrations, video, or to undedicated students.

The beauty and life-affirming power of Internal Aikido is my primary focus.

[Gary David]

Hi Gary,

I have no desire to injure anyone, and the most martially powerful people I know likewise have no desire either. I mean this literally when I say compassion is the true source of power. I may not gain students I would've otherwise attained if I were to compete in Dog Brothers or other fighting events, but it runs counter to what I believe in. The Staff is a sacred practice for me and I'll only use it for self-defense if absolutely necessary. I have created some of the most lethal staff forms in history but I'll never show them publicly in demonstrations, video, or to undedicated students.

The beauty and life-affirming power of Internal Aikido is my primary focus.

So there you go...it is a path that only you can travel.......
Gary

[Tenyu]

The solo kata, the jo is not touching anything except the air. The wave is generated by you from the ground is reflected back to ground through you.

Technique with uke, uke is grounded and any wave generated by you, from the ground is not reflected back to you but is returned to ground through uke.

dps

David,

Striking/throwing an uke(person), in any regular practice within a dojo, is of such low frequency nage can rarely feel any activation at all. In fact I only began searching for asymptotes at strike termination in taijitsu after I learned how to activate with the staff. It would be close to impossible to find them without an understand of Internal's implicit structures beforehand which can only be achieved with weapons. It might be possible to teach it with nikkyo, without weapons experience, but it can be very dangerous for uke if done incorrectly.

To get back to your question though, some kokyu techniques end with uke being thrown into the air disconnected from both nage and the ground momentarily. Saito Junior came up first in search: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WrSgu-TuNUI He's still striking to an asymptote in the air. Techniques where uke is tangent to both nage and ground, the asymptote does intersect with the ground, but again they're of such low frequency that nage would never feel the demands of a reflecting waveform. This is why so many people including shihans can get away with throwing off-balance. With the staff, any deficiency with center, balance, alignment even of a few millimeters can cause serious dissonance in high frequency asymptotic activation. Aikibodo in essence is a call for perfection, and there's no reason why it's beyond anyone's reach within their power/frequency levels.

[Tenyu]

So there you go...it is a path that only you can travel.......
Gary

Unlike O Sensei, I'm willing to teach Internal Aikido in a way where anyone can begin learning it from the very first day of class. This path isn't exclusive to me nor should it be.

[dps]

With the staff, any deficiency with center, balance, alignment even of a few millimeters can cause serious dissonance in high frequency asymptotic activation.

What frequency are you talking about?

Striking/throwing an uke(person), in any regular practice within a dojo, is of such low frequency nage can rarely feel any activation at all. .

Are you using the staff as a tuning fork to adjust your body's sympathetic frequency (70hz)?

dps

[Marc Abrams]

Marc,

You don't have to admit you made a mistake. Please take your own advice though and refrain from posting further ad homs, it's a waste of time.

-Tenyu

Tenyu:

Thank you for bringing up the issue of mistakes. Let's review:

1) Total martial arts training experience under a teacher: 3 years- Seido Karate under Nakamura Sensei. 2.5 years Aikibojutsu under Reid Sensei. Total of 5.5 years of training under teacher and you then are teaching a "new style."

2) Aikibodo as a new internal style of the wooden staff: You studied under Reid Sensei for 2.5 years and reached the rank of shodan (SHO referring to beginner!). Reid Sensei is the first person in martial arts to have taken certain mathematical and physic concepts and directly applied them to the understanding and teaching of his unique style of Aikido and Bojutsu. In some venues, certainly in the academic sphere, new/novel applications of current ideas do translate into proprietary ideas and concepts that have been protected, even in courts of law. After you created problems in that organization, were demoted and kicked out, you have essentially taken proprietary information, made slight adaptations and called it something new.

3) You were allowed into the instructor's training program based upon the your brother's recommendation. You are Japanese. According to Japanese tradition, your family honor was placed on the line by your brother's recommendation. You violated the conditions of your being allowed to be in that program, thereby bringing dishonor to your family's name. I do not think that I need to inform you of the traditional manner of restoring honor.

4) As a condition of entering that training program, all people acknowledge that they are not allowed to teach that information without Reid Sensei's explicit permission. You explicitly violated that policy and tried to explain it away by saying that you did not have to sign anything. What is it that they say about the value of a man's word?

5) You claim in post #56, that you are teaching Reid Sensei Bo katas. Nothing more needs to be added to that one, except to note that you complain about other people being liars.

6) You post personal stuff (pictures, etc.) that are essentially irrelevant to the thread topic and object when people respond to your posts at a personal level.

7) You recently stated "I have created some of the most lethal staff forms in history but I'll never show them publicly in demonstrations, video, or to undedicated students." Created?, Most lethal?

8) You were recently given an opportunity to "display your wares" at a "Dogs event" and declined because you did not want to injure anybody.

9) You recently said "Unlike O Sensei, I'm willing to teach Internal Aikido in a way where anyone can begin learning it from the very first day of class. This path isn't exclusive to me nor should it be. "
Exactly what do you base your comment about O'Sensei on?

I could go on and on.... I frankly have yet to make a mistake that I need to own up to on this thread. You on the other hand appear to keep digging and digging and digging in hopes of digging your way out of a widening hole that you have created for yourself.

Marc Abrams

[Tenyu]

David,

Frequency refers to how many cycles the staff vibrates at strike activation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frequency

In Tom's book Aikido Aikibojitsu and The Structure of Natural Law page 232 he mentions an intermediate practitioner can achieve 1 or 2 cycles while an advanced practitioner may be able to achieve 4 or more.

It's impossible for me to count in person because the very act of staring at the asymptote will cause me to become uke-centric and deny correct form. If I were to guess estimating peripherally my regular high frequency activations are around 15 to 20 cycles. My attenuated activations could easily be 30 to 60 cycles. It's an unbelievable experience.

[Tenyu]

Marc,

Your anger is misdirected. Please don't attempt to mimic the Mike/Dan dynamic, it's not what the forums are for.

-Tenyu

[Mark Freeman]

David,

Frequency refers to how many cycles the staff vibrates at strike activation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frequency

In Tom's book Aikido Aikibojitsu and The Structure of Natural Law page 232 he mentions an intermediate practitioner can achieve 1 or 2 cycles while an advanced practitioner may be able to achieve 4 or more.

It's impossible for me to count in person because the very act of staring at the asymptote will cause me to become uke-centric and deny correct form. If I were to guess estimating peripherally my regular high frequency activations are around 15 to 20 cycles. My attenuated activations could easily be 30 to 60 cycles. It's an unbelievable experience.

I don't know why I am commenting on this woeful thread apart to say, - How on earth do you come up with this stuff Tenyu??

Personally I have no idea/struggle immensely to understand what you are describing, but the man who wrote the book says an advanced practitioner 'may' be able to achieve 4 or more.
Then you tell us that you can achieve a number between 7 and 15 times greater than this?

I have no idea how anyone can begin to count cycles unles they are per minute, my limited understanding of what you are talking about is per second, am I correct? Distinguishing between these rates is for me impossible, maybe you are a being much further evolved than me, which is always possible I suppose.

reading your posts are a little like experiencing the world on the substances that were freely available in the sixties - bizarre:freaky:

regards

Mark

[Gary David]

Unlike O Sensei, I'm willing to teach Internal Aikido in a way where anyone can begin learning it from the very first day of class. This path isn't exclusive to me nor should it be.

Tenyu
It is your path alone to travel...and that is cool. It is yours alone to follow....you have stated in your recent posts how much beyond any of us you are in your development,,,,maybe so...... It never helps to step into a room full of strangers and start telling them how much more you know than them and how much better you can apply what you know than anything of them can with what they know. There are places I know that if you took the approach you have here fights would break just to see who would get to toss you out of the place....and they would.

Maybe you are a gift from above....but your marketing department has not served you well. I think I said somewhere that this would not end well and I still think that is the case. Good luck with it....
Gary

[Marc Abrams]

Marc,

Your anger is misdirected. Please don't attempt to mimic the Mike/Dan dynamic, it's not what the forums are for.

-Tenyu

Tenyu:

1) Anger misdirected? Are you now a trained mental health person as well?
2) Mike and Dan have something valid to offer others after many, many years of training on their parts. You are not even remotely part of any type of any kind of similar dynamics.
3) The forums are for people to discuss various topics. I set out a bunch of them in my last post, which you seem to not want to have to address.

Keep on digging...

Marc Abrams

[dps]

I were to guess estimating peripherally my regular high frequency activations are around 15 to 20 cycles. My attenuated activations could easily be 30 to 60 cycles. It's an unbelievable experience.

I not sure what you mean by activations.

"Strike activation", the mechanical vibrations of the staff when it strikes something?

"Attenuated activations"?

dps

[Tenyu]

Tenyu
It is your path alone to travel...and that is cool. It is yours alone to follow....you have stated in your recent posts how much beyond any of us you are in your development,,,,maybe so...... It never helps to step into a room full of strangers and start telling them how much more you know than them and how much better you can apply what you know than anything of them can with what they know. There are places I know that if you took the approach you have here fights would break just to see who would get to toss you out of the place....and they would.

Maybe you are a gift from above....but your marketing department has not served you well. I think I said somewhere that this would not end well and I still think that is the case. Good luck with it....
Gary

Gary,

I agree with you now that Aikiweb is not the best ‘target audience' to find someone interested in learning what I do. I don't know what the average age here is but it's probably well over my own age. I've only had one teacher younger than me, a 4th dan at Seido who'd been training his whole life there. I learned a lot from him regarding Karate technique in class and seeing how influential it was to his daily life the few times I hung out with him outside the dojo. At the same time I had already been through quite a bit myself in life, many unique experiences which were foreign to him. I never treated him any different inside the dojo from my other teachers who were anywhere from 15 to 40 years older than me though.

If I were your guys' age I probably wouldn't want to learn from someone my age either, no matter what I had to offer. I've only trained in six Aikido dojos, and except for one there was rarely anyone younger than me, including large seminars! I did get quite a bit of interest from one California affiliation during a weekend seminar I attended but that was before I was even teaching at Northcoast. The shihan wasn't at all embarrassed to be genuinely curious and interested in what I was doing while we talked in the presence of his senior students.

I should focus my efforts on the younger generation.

You can probably see I'm quite passionate about Aikido, and I know the descriptions are foreign but believe it or not I try to make it as simple as possible to understand without sacrificing important details. What I've posted on Aikiweb is not at all indicative of how I would teach in person to a beginner. In the beginning, I teach by example, omitting the difficult terminology, and giving simple corrections "hold here on the stick", "see where my foot is pointing", "keep your back straight", just like any normal dojo.

-Tenyu

[Tenyu]

I not sure what you mean by activations.

"Strike activation", the mechanical vibrations of the staff when it strikes something?

dps

That's it, but I never strike at anything physical only in the air as shown in my videos:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6qSruxAA3Q

The activations are harder to see when the staff is immediately 'bounced down' and returned from the asymptote but if you look closely it's visible. These were made with grade level 3 and 4 hickory. I've been training with grade 7 now for the past six months and it's completely changed my practice. As I mentioned the higher density wood can carry frequencies several times that of the lighter density wood.

[Gary David]

Gary,
If I were your guys' age I probably wouldn't want to learn from someone my age either, no matter what I had to offer.

Tenyu
Age is not a difference maker with me and I don't think it has been the case here, but presentation and first impressions can cut any relationships one is trying to start off at the ankles. Also keep in mind that stand alone organizations are just that, standing by themselves without supporting relationships needed to progress and keep interest. Please keep that in mind as you move forward.
Gary

[gregstec]

It's impossible for me to count in person because the very act of staring at the asymptote will cause me to become uke-centric and deny correct form. If I were to guess estimating peripherally my regular high frequency activations are around 15 to 20 cycles. My attenuated activations could easily be 30 to 60 cycles. It's an unbelievable experience.

Hey, if you want 60 cycles, stick your finger in the wall socket and see how that vibrates your shaft :D

Greg

[mathewjgano]

It's impossible for me to count in person because the very act of staring at the asymptote will cause me to become uke-centric and deny correct form. If I were to guess estimating peripherally my regular high frequency activations are around 15 to 20 cycles. My attenuated activations could easily be 30 to 60 cycles. It's an unbelievable experience.

If you have access to high-speed video, that would be the way to go! Fascinating to study too!

[Walter Martindale]

I don't know why I am commenting on this woeful thread apart to say, - How on earth do you come up with this stuff Tenyu??

Personally I have no idea/struggle immensely to understand what you are describing, but the man who wrote the book says an advanced practitioner 'may' be able to achieve 4 or more.
Then you tell us that you can achieve a number between 7 and 15 times greater than this?

I have no idea how anyone can begin to count cycles unles they are per minute, my limited understanding of what you are talking about is per second, am I correct? Distinguishing between these rates is for me impossible, maybe you are a being much further evolved than me, which is always possible I suppose.

reading your posts are a little like experiencing the world on the substances that were freely available in the sixties - bizarre:freaky:

regards

Mark

Well, I don't get it. Long ago I did a master's in phys ed with a thesis studying the kinematics and energy flows (mechanical energy that is) of sculling. We filmed, digitised, and digitally filtered, but before filtering we did a Fourier analysis of the frequencies of all the markers, and (IIRC) signal to noise ratio was best if the cutoff was at 4 Hz.

It's a very long time ago and I've forgotten all but the underlying concepts of the frequency analysis, but I'm afraid I'll have to admit being very thick when it comes to the concepts discussed in this thread. I also studied math for 4 years in undergraduate - and I've managed to block most of it out, but I do remember infinity and asymptotes.

I don't think in my 18 years involvement in Aikido that I've heard anyone refer to asymptotes in Aikido before this thread (and of course the one to which I was referred by dps, but - and I apologise for my thickness - it too appears to be gobbledygook - someone using scientific/mathematical language to describe things that require new operational definitions of terms that already have accepted definitions).

When I'm at work (I'm a professional rowing coach) I speak to people as if they have brains, but I also use plain English - I try desperately to minimise polysyllabic obfuscation which would make the people I coach roll their eyes, because I want them to "get" it and perform in competition at a level appropriate to their development stage.

One example of a coaching situation - I managed to help a young woman learn to "catch" - place her sculls in the water - at the best time for efficient use of her power - She got it fairly quickly but since it was a new way of doing a movement that she'd been doing for about 10 years, she found that her movements were "jerky", and asked how to make it "lighter". I said something along the lines of "well, I could describe how I do it but we don't share nervous systems - you want to make the blades enter the water with a quick, smooth motion that involves only a small hand movement timed right at the moment that you change between recovery and drive - you've got the timing of it now and you've only done it about 5 times - let's see if over the next few minutes you can sort out how to make the movement smoother and lighter without losing any of the quickness and timing" (incidentally she was in a racing single skiff and I was in a motor boat, not in any position to guide a feeling other than by description of movements). She took a few minutes to "get" it and was able to incorporate the (relatively subtle) change in her movements to make the boat she was using go faster with the same or possibly less effort.

I've done this and other coaching interventions with several people aged from 13 to in their 50s, and they've almost all been able to figure it out, and I think it's mostly because I use plain, simple language to describe what's happening and what they're trying to do.

See, I could say that they want the inferior tip of the scull to make contact with the water when the tangent to the arc of its travel is perpendicular to the water's surface, and to become fully immersed in less than 0.10 second, or I could say that they want the bottom edge of the blade to hit the water at the point of furthest reach (farthest?) and to go in all the way, quickly. Both descriptions say about the same thing, but one works for people who understand vectors and geometry, while the other works for anyone who speaks English. The former are a subset of the latter, and I'd rather reach more people by using plainer language.

Asymptotes, and all this other stuff to do with physics, without the benefit of the movements being analysed in 3 dimensions within a calibrated space just leaves me with my eyes glazing over.
If someone who has the resources and some skills in biomechanics could manage to do a proper study of the kinematics and kinetics of some of these aikido things that people are talking about, I'd be very interested. But it's not a simple thing to do.

A calibrated space - you take 3 or more cameras that are synchronised to a time signal (i.e., the shutter rate is identical AND the shutters are all open at the same time), and take film of a 3-dimensional lattice of known dimensions. Then digitise all of the points in the lattice as filmed by all of the 3 or more cameras, and use a computer program that is way beyond my skills to write so that any point that is within the confines of the 3-d lattice can be identified in x,y, and z coordinates.

Once you've got your calibrated space, assuming that the calibrated space is above a force-platform, perform several trials of whatever movement you are analysing, and digitise markers that you've placed on the bodies of the people performing - again, with all three cameras - and run the data through digital filtering to reduce things like camera shake, operator digitising error and the like, correct for optical errors, and combine the info from the 3 or more cameras to develop stick figures of the people doing the performances. Assign mass characteristics to the segments of the stick figures, and find out what the frequencies of the movements are. If you've got force platform data that was gathered and synchronised with the film data, then you can figure out the directions and magnitudes of the forces that are being exerted on the floor by the practitioners.
Oh, by the way - a 30 by 60 cm force platform with the charge amplifiers was $40,000 in 1979.

However - I'm sorry I got off on this particular tangent (oops, another scientific word). I'm just very confused by Hamaki-san's usage..

Now - having written all of this (I'm staying vertical at the moment because every time I lie down my pneumonia makes me cough, and I can't get to sleep), do I click "submit reply" or not?

Ah heck...

[kewms]

No one can own an asymptote nor the word asymptote. Nor can one own Aikido nor the word Aikido. Tom only described natural law, he didn't actually create natural law. :freaky:

300 years later, we still talk about Newton's Laws, even though he didn't invent the underlying physics either. It's true that natural laws exist, independent of any description by mere humans. But among humans, attribution is an important sign of respect.

Katherine

[kewms]

David,

Frequency refers to how many cycles the staff vibrates at strike activation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frequency

In Tom's book Aikido Aikibojitsu and The Structure of Natural Law page 232 he mentions an intermediate practitioner can achieve 1 or 2 cycles while an advanced practitioner may be able to achieve 4 or more.

It's impossible for me to count in person because the very act of staring at the asymptote will cause me to become uke-centric and deny correct form. If I were to guess estimating peripherally my regular high frequency activations are around 15 to 20 cycles. My attenuated activations could easily be 30 to 60 cycles. It's an unbelievable experience.

Unbelievable indeed. Got any evidence for this claim?

Katherine

[dps]

Tenyu, "attenuated activations" seems to be a contradicting term.

Attenuate means to to reduce and activate means increase action.

dps

[Tenyu]

Tenyu, "attenuated activations" seems to be a contradicting term.

Attenuate means to to reduce and activate means increase action.

dps

David,

For reasons not too different from what Greg S joked about above, it would be irresponsible of me to explain how this works on a public forum. It's not safe for a beginner or even an intermediate level practitioner. I only practice attenuation about once a week myself.

-Tenyu

[Mike Sigman]

I only practice attenuation about once a week myself.
Be careful of warts.

[Lorel Latorilla]

Hi Gary,

I have created some of the most lethal staff forms in history but I'll never show them publicly in demonstrations, video, or to undedicated students.



LOL. I never took this dude seriously in the beginning, but this takes the cake. I dont see why people would continue replying after reading this post. Awesome stuff, Tenyu. Made my day.

[Tenyu]

Also, really, you should do another thread on Peak Oil (which I've been studying since 1974) on the Open Topics forum.

David

David,

I took your advice. Please feel free to share.

[Lorel Latorilla]

David,

I took your advice. Please feel free to share.

Tenyu, how did you devise the most lethal forms in history? How did you measure that? Do you know about all the forms in the world ... did you meet with all martial artists that engage in some kind of 'lethal' form and formed your judgment off your meeting with them? I'm seriously curious.

[Dan Rubin]

Tenyu, how did you devise the most lethal forms in history? How did you measure that? Do you know about all the forms in the world ... did you meet with all martial artists that engage in some kind of 'lethal' form and formed your judgment off your meeting with them? I'm seriously curious.

...writes the guy who couldn't see why people would continue to reply to Tenyu's posts. ;) :D

[Lorel Latorilla]

...writes the guy who couldn't see why people would continue to reply to Tenyu's posts. ;) :D

;)

Maybe he haz g0t da g00dz. Seriously, I wanna know where that guy is coming from when he makes a statement like that.

[Tenyu]

Tenyu, how did you devise the most lethal forms in history? How did you measure that? Do you know about all the forms in the world ... did you meet with all martial artists that engage in some kind of 'lethal' form and formed your judgment off your meeting with them? I'm seriously curious.

Lorel,

Where did I say all forms? I said staff(hardwood) forms. The martial subset of the preformal is tiny and easy compared to the entire potential realm. This is why O Sensei spent his post-enlightenment years creating all those beautiful staff forms, it's much more challenging and enriching.

[dps]

Lorel,

Where did I say all forms? I said staff(hardwood) forms. The martial subset of the preformal is tiny and easy compared to the entire potential realm. This is why O Sensei spent his post-enlightenment years creating all those beautiful staff forms, it's much more challenging and enriching.

You need to let us in on the terminology you are using in order for us to understand you.

What do you mean by;

preformal,

potential realm,

martial subset

dps

[Tenyu]

David,

Those words are defined in Tom's book. I suggest you buy it if you're really interested. There are people on this forum, both regular posters and non-member lurkers, who have already read it and understand the words.

[Lorel Latorilla]

Lorel,

Where did I say all forms? I said staff(hardwood) forms. The martial subset of the preformal is tiny and easy compared to the entire potential realm. This is why O Sensei spent his post-enlightenment years creating all those beautiful staff forms, it's much more challenging and enriching.

I'm sorry, 'hardwood' staff forms. How do you know that you created the most lethal 'hardwood staff forms' in the history of martial arts? What is your measure for this?

[Tenyu]

I'm sorry, 'hardwood' staff forms. How do you know that you created the most lethal 'hardwood staff forms' in the history of martial arts? What is your measure for this?

My experience with the preformal.

[Lorel Latorilla]

Um right. bye bye

[Mark Freeman]

You need to let us in on the terminology you are using in order for us to understand you.

What do you mean by;

preformal,

potential realm,

martial subset

dps

Hi David,

If a concept can't be explained in plain english, then the fault lies with the explainer.

Complicated scientific principles are often explained using metaphor and good use of plain language. If a martial arts soaked audience can't understand what is being said, then there is definitely a language issue here.

There are plenty of people following the whole IS/IP/aiki debate and in the main, those who claim to have it, and those who practice and strive to master it, are engaged in the debate using, both old and new terminology. In the main just about everyone (I think) has some understanding of what is being discussed. Am I right?

Tenyu claims to have perfected something which he claims is both unique and pretty lethal. Until someone, apart from him, who can varify his claims, comes along and confirms. We only have his say so. I find his explanations impossible to get my head round. I just can't comprehend. It could just be me, but I don't think I am on my own.

regards

Mark

[Flintstone]

(...) This is why O Sensei spent his post-enlightenment years creating all those beautiful staff forms, it's much more challenging and enriching.
O Sensei created what?

[C. David Henderson]

"All those beautiful staff forms." Geez, man, pay attention. :D

[Howard Popkin]

Be careful of warts.

Now that was funny :) :o :D :)

[Flintstone]

"All those beautiful staff forms." Geez, man, pay attention. :D
My bad.

[dps]

Hi David,

If a concept can't be explained in plain english, then the fault lies with the explainer.

Complicated scientific principles are often explained using metaphor and good use of plain language. If a martial arts soaked audience can't understand what is being said, then there is definitely a language issue here.

There are plenty of people following the whole IS/IP/aiki debate and in the main, those who claim to have it, and those who practice and strive to master it, are engaged in the debate using, both old and new terminology. In the main just about everyone (I think) has some understanding of what is being discussed. Am I right?

Tenyu claims to have perfected something which he claims is both unique and pretty lethal. Until someone, apart from him, who can varify his claims, comes along and confirms. We only have his say so. I find his explanations impossible to get my head round. I just can't comprehend. It could just be me, but I don't think I am on my own.

regards

Mark

I agree wit what you are saying.



dps

[Shadowfax]

Tenyu claims to have perfected something which he claims is both unique and pretty lethal. Until someone, apart from him, who can varify his claims, comes along and confirms.

ummmmm....Please excuse me from breaking in on a conversation that is way above my head, but just out of curiosity. Because I am trying to figure out just how one goes about determining how lethal an art is. How many people have you actually killed using this staff form Tenyu? And is the government aware of your activities? How exactly does one determine whether or not a form is lethal and to what degree? I'm not sure killing imaginary enemies really counts. Or am I mistaken?

[Tenyu]

How many people have you actually killed using this staff form Tenyu?

None.

Please excuse me from breaking in on a conversation that is way above my head, but just out of curiosity. Because I am trying to figure out just how one goes about determining how lethal an art is. How exactly does one determine whether or not a form is lethal and to what degree?

Morihei said of all the people who came to contest him in his dojo, only a few of them were real masters. He knew as soon as they walked in before anything happened and admitted such immediately, of course they were able to recognize the same with Morihei. It is the ones, the overwhelming majority of challengers, who with little experience with the preformal could not see the potential realm. Uke, by their own culturally inherited psychology of separation(please refer to Ascent of Humanity in Open Topics), by default had access only to the ‘postformal' downstream manifest world and could only find out by attacking.

When Kaicho started up in NYC, he had many challengers all of them bigger than him. They were very powerful and successful professional fight competitors, yet still uke to no fault of their own. These people meant business, interrupting his classes to challenge him. Kaicho never wanted to hurt anyone but they gave him no choice. There was never any fighting of course, Kaicho ended every situation immediately with irimi. The worst that happened for uke was a broken rib or two, not bad for a true no rules situation. Some of the challengers did go on to become dedicated students of his though.

The very desire to fight with someone requires one to become uke. It's a classic example of field reversal. A real nage has no such desire.

[Marc Abrams]

Cherie:

You asked a person to put some substantiation behind the words and all you get is a bunch of nonsense in return. Isn't that lethal enough for you? :D

Marc Abrams

[Shadowfax]

Cherie:

You asked a person to put some substantiation behind the words and all you get is a bunch of nonsense in return. Isn't that lethal enough for you? :D

Marc Abrams

Well... it certainly is just a little bit frightening I suppose. So far though I am not blinded by pure awesome....maybe he needs more noodles.....:freaky:

Tenyu... I have no idea what the history lesson was about. You forgot to tie in the part about how this has anything to do with what you claim.You didn't actually answer the question. Any rate thanks for the attempt.

[Janet Rosen]

Well, clearly it's a case of he could tell us but then he'd have to kill us.

[Shadowfax]

Well, clearly it's a case of he could tell us but then he'd have to kill us.

Which might explain the absence of anyone who can step up to verify that what he says is true..... oh wait he said he has never actually killed anyone though.

[dps]

Well, clearly it's a case of he could tell us but then he'd have to kill us.

Or telling us would kill us.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9XJeL2MNpw

dps

[Shadowfax]

Or telling us would kill us.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9XJeL2MNpw

dps

ahhh thank you. Now at last I understand. :D

[Janet Rosen]

Or telling us would kill us.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9XJeL2MNpw

dps

you know I thought of that one too! :)

[dbotari]

Asymptote is no more difficult to understand than infinity. If there were a jargon-free word that has the same meaning as asymptote I would use it.

Sorry but I call BS. If you can't explain such an obviously abstract concept in simpler terms then you don't understand it well enough to be teaching it.

[dps]

Sorry but I call BS. If you can't explain such an obviously abstract concept in simpler terms then you don't understand it well enough to be teaching it.

Albert Einstein ?

"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough."

and

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex... It takes a touch of genius - and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction."

http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/a/alberteins383803.html

[David Orange]

Cherie:

You asked a person to put some substantiation behind the words and all you get is a bunch of nonsense in return. Isn't that lethal enough for you? :D


He's been killing me ever since he started posting.

Actually, asymptote is not that hard to understand. You just have to go to Tom Read and he does a great job of explaining it.

But I've decided to base my new style on this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DK5Z709J2eo

Best.

David

[Walter Martindale]

But I've decided to base my new style on this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DK5Z709J2eo

Best.

David

Very good.

W

[David Orange]

Very good.

I'd claim it as my own...but that would be wrong. Wouldn't it?

:D

[sakumeikan]

Sorry but I call BS. If you can't explain such an obviously abstract concept in simpler terms then you don't understand it well enough to be teaching it.
Dear Dan,
Out of curiosity I looked up the meaning of asymptote[always eager to educate myself].Having looked at the answer I have a glazed look on my face. How Tenyu can imply that this tunes in somehow with Aikido I do not know.I defy anyone to make sense of Tenyus article.The first guy to give me a rationale of what Tenyu is saying I will send him /her a coconut[in a figuratively speaking . sense].I await a horde of answers with bated breath. Cheers, Joe.

[David Orange]

Dear Dan,
Out of curiosity I looked up the meaning of asymptote[always eager to educate myself].Having looked at the answer I have a glazed look on my face. How Tenyu can imply that this tunes in somehow with Aikido I do not know.I defy anyone to make sense of Tenyus article.The first guy to give me a rationale of what Tenyu is saying I will send him /her a coconut[in a figuratively speaking . sense].I await a horde of answers with bated breath. Cheers, Joe.

Joe,

Tom Read, who applied the concept to aikido, explains it as this: you have a runner running in a straight line as fast as he can. You tell him to turn right, maintaining his speed. He can't make a 90 degree turn at full speed. He has to curve. A stronger person can curve more sharply, but there's a limit to how much turn he can make with his mass and speed, and that curve is the "asymptote". He can't possibly pass that "barrier" described by the curve. So it's not a physical "thing" but it is a physical limit.

Applied to aikido, at least on one level, the attacker comes at you and you move to his side. He can turn toward you, but there's a limit to how sharply he can turn toward you and if you're on the other side of the "asymptote" line, he can't reach you. He can conceivably put his arm through that space, but not with full power because he's working against himself.

I'm not exactly clear on how this applies to the staff.

But I think that's the basic idea.

Best to you.

David

[sakumeikan]

Joe,

Tom Read, who applied the concept to aikido, explains it as this: you have a runner running in a straight line as fast as he can. You tell him to turn right, maintaining his speed. He can't make a 90 degree turn at full speed. He has to curve. A stronger person can curve more sharply, but there's a limit to how much turn he can make with his mass and speed, and that curve is the "asymptote". He can't possibly pass that "barrier" described by the curve. So it's not a physical "thing" but it is a physical limit.

Applied to aikido, at least on one level, the attacker comes at you and you move to his side. He can turn toward you, but there's a limit to how sharply he can turn toward you and if you're on the other side of the "asymptote" line, he can't reach you. He can conceivably put his arm through that space, but not with full power because he's working against himself.

I'm not exactly clear on how this applies to the staff.

But I think that's the basic idea.

Best to you.

David
Hi David,
Thats why the fox/greyhound has a tail-to help them turn /change direction quickly.The tail is not just for swatting flies!The movement you describe afterwards sounds like
Irimi Nage.Thanks for the explanation -I still think that Tenyu is guilty of 'over intellectualising' Aikido. Aikido for me is not rocket science.I guess I am not scientifically minded.Maybe Tenyu could explain more is theories? I noted he stated he had developed Jo work-why not tell us more? I am always for new ideas.
Cheers, Joe.

[sakumeikan]

David,
I send you an electronic coconut as promised, Joe.

[David Orange]

I still think that Tenyu is guilty of 'over intellectualising' Aikido.

I think that's because these are not his ideas. Tom Read Sensei developed all these ideas and applied them to staff work and back to aikido (or that's the impression I get). There's another thread about Read's book, Aikido Aikibojitsu and the Structure of Natural Law.

Here's a link that explains some of it.

http://www.aikibojitsu.com/BookPage.html

It's a bit abstract for me, but I think I'd like to go through it at some point and see if I can understand his basic points. He was Tenyu's teacher, if you haven't caught that point yet. He had to boot Tenyu and Tenyu changed the name of the system and announced it as a new martial art....so it's not his own idea and he has to lean a bit too heavily on it to make his points.

Aikido for me is not rocket science.I guess I am not scientifically minded.Maybe Tenyu could explain more is theories? I noted he stated he had developed Jo work-why not tell us more? I am always for new ideas.

To make sure you get the original ideas, I'd recommend the book.

Best to you.

David

[David Orange]

David,
I send you an electronic coconut as promised, Joe.

Mmmm! Oishi!

Thanks!

David

[Tenyu]

Tenyu.
With regards to the teacher of the staff? I asked if you knew of such a person for I got the impression many folks seemed to think O'Sensei never had a precise way written down.

Maybe I'm wrong there.( excuse the off topic aside)

Regards.G.

If O Sensei had definitions or transcriptions for his staffwork I'm sure we would have seen them by now. It's a time consuming process which I used to do a lot of before. I compiled a dictionary of transcribed staff forms couple years ago but that was when my work was still external. I haven't done so for Internal yet because I don't think it's necessary. I've also learned that many of the complex dynamic forms don't like being defined to one series of locations, they like having a range making the transcription process even more tedious.

[graham christian]

If O Sensei had definitions or transcriptions for his staffwork I'm sure we would have seen them by now. It's a time consuming process which I used to do a lot of before. I compiled a dictionary of transcribed staff forms couple years ago but that was when my work was still external. I haven't done so for Internal yet because I don't think it's necessary. I've also learned that many of the complex dynamic forms don't like being defined to one series of locations, they like having a range making the transcription process even more tedious.

Tenyu.
I was just seeing what your view was and whether you had an open mind. Statements like 'if O'Sensei had transcriptions for his staffwork we would have seen them by now' are not from an open mind.

Anyway. He did pass a scroll on with his 'innermost secrets of the staff' in 1957. (secrets not being my wording)

I will find a link and post it if anyone is interested.

Regards.G.

[graham christian]

The teacher I was referring to is Sensei Hikitsuchi Michio.

G.

[Tenyu]

Tenyu.
I was just seeing what your view was and whether you had an open mind. Statements like 'if O'Sensei had transcriptions for his staffwork we would have seen them by now' are not from an open mind.

Anyway. He did pass a scroll on with his 'innermost secrets of the staff' in 1957. (secrets not being my wording)

I will find a link and post it if anyone is interested.

Regards.G.

I'm happy to be proven wrong about O Sensei having written definitions for his forms. I was under the impression the scroll was O Sensei giving Hikitsuchi simple certification in staff.

[graham christian]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUYOgkCyr0Q

Tenyu.
This is the link. About two thirds of the way through the video is the part relevant to the scroll on the staff presented by O'Sensei.

For me personally he is one of the best exponents of Aikido.

Regards.G.

[Randy Sexton]

New styles of doing something is usually a rehashing of old techniques by someone anxious to be the big dog instead of the young pup. Good luck. I am done here and moving on to a new subject.

Doc Sexton
p.s. Thanks to George for his wisdom put forth here.

[Tenyu]

New styles of doing something is usually a rehashing of old techniques by someone anxious to be the big dog instead of the young pup. Good luck. I am done here and moving on to a new subject.

Doc Sexton
p.s. Thanks to George for his wisdom put forth here.

Randy,

Initially I didn't understand why the high ranking people here were so upset and passing judgement on matters they knew nothing about. The reason has become transparent to me as I'm sure has been already for many others witnessing this thread.

I am at the forefront of developing the Staff of Aikido in the world, it is a matter of fact, not a matter of hierarchy.

[mathewjgano]

I am at the forefront of developing the Staff of Aikido in the world, it is a matter of fact, not a matter of hierarchy.

Of course social hierarchy has nothing to do with it, but unless you've done some seriously focused study on the breadth of staff in Aikido (Youtube wouldn't count in my book), I don't see how you could make that claim. How much of the "staff of Aikido in the world" have you experienced?

Initially I didn't understand why the high ranking people here were so upset and passing judgement on matters they knew nothing about.
They knew/know something about the "matters." It's just a question of what's pertinent to statements made.
Sincerely,
Matt

[graham christian]

Randy,

Initially I didn't understand why the high ranking people here were so upset and passing judgement on matters they knew nothing about. The reason has become transparent to me as I'm sure has been already for many others witnessing this thread.

I am at the forefront of developing the Staff of Aikido in the world, it is a matter of fact, not a matter of hierarchy.

Tenyu.
Do you understand now? I'm all for someone taking something to a new level, or style etc. Allow me to explain.

If I was to announce to the world I had a new advanced way of the staff I would have to recognise certain things.

1. If it isn't the same as O'Sensei did, of which he gave the principles to one teacher then I couldn't relate it to such.

2. If it's based on a form learned elsewhere and yet through your own realizations become a new style the you could indeed call it a new style. You could also say it has principles based on those you learned and point out the new ones.

3. So all new ways are infants. If they are better than what went before is not your choice. It is only the choice of others.

4. So you no doubt have a new way. Good for you. Promoting it as you do is thus in my opinion your failure especially as you call it a fact. This only gives the impression of arrogance or delusion.

CONCLUSION: If you stuck to reality and just offered it as a new way which you believe may help others in (what you believe it does) then they may not feel so offended.

Promoting it as you do is all very good for the ego but not very useful to others.

I am sure if you just promote it with humility, just as it is, a new way of the staff, then some may be attracted to try it and either they or you will learn if your reality is true.

Regards.G.

[Tenyu]

unless you've done some seriously focused study on the breadth of staff in Aikido (Youtube wouldn't count in my book), I don't see how you could make that claim. How much of the "staff of Aikido in the world" have you experienced?

Matt

You’re right, not everything’s on Youtube. I’ve done my homework though. I have all 4 VHS tapes of Hikitsuchi’s material, I had the complete DVD series of Ikeda’s work including the freestyle staff presentation. I went to one of Saotome’s seminars and in between class he showed me his work. I’ve never been to an Iwama dojo but Saito Hitohiro and Daniel Toutain both show 31 and 13 katas on youtube. They’re the only one’s I’ve seen use asymptote activations(low frequency). Few years ago I got the latest all-japan DVD with all the Japanese Shihans, I gave that DVD away shortly after. I’ve seen Sunadomari’s DVD’s and his staffwork. O Sensei’s the only person I’ve wanted to steal forms from during the time I spent researching Aikido history. With ample evidence I can easily say my work’s at the forefront.

[Tenyu]

If they are better than what went before is not your choice. It is only the choice of others.

This mindset is that of uke. I wouldn't have been able to create Aikibodo if I thought that way.

So you no doubt have a new way. Good for you. Promoting it as you do is thus in my opinion your failure especially as you call it a fact. This only gives the impression of arrogance or delusion.

If I weren't at the forefront of Staff research then there'd be no reason for anyone to learn from me when there's so many Aikido teachers twice my age everywhere!

CONCLUSION: If you stuck to reality and just offered it as a new way which you believe may help others in (what you believe it does) then they may not feel so offended.

This thread's a couple months old, they were offended before I said this earlier today. I'm not going to explain it to you if you don't understand.

[graham christian]

This mindset is that of uke. I wouldn't have been able to create Aikibodo if I thought that way.

If I weren't at the forefront of Staff research then there'd be no reason for anyone to learn from me when there's so many Aikido teachers twice my age everywhere!

This thread's a couple months old, they were offended before I said this earlier today. I'm not going to explain it to you if you don't understand.

Tenyu.
Fair enough. If that's your view then so be it. I believe you are not where you think you are until you have taught many and helped many more who have problems with such.

You have said such things from the beginning if the thread so I am fully aware thank you and thus my view holds true.

I have seen others give you much advice which if you ever do venture into the world of teaching a new public you will need to learn as by reading the thread you havn't as yet. Namely how to put your terminology in such a way that the receiver of it understands. The art of teaching.

Why mention how great your way is in the first place?

You can justify that as uke mindset as much as you like but it just shows yours insecurity to me unfortunately.

The wisest, most able and truly competant exponents never self promote and are very humble. All promotion is done by others. They only answer questions due to great public interest much further down the line, the line of which you havn't even moved on yet.

Self promotion is self defeating and this I believe you cannot see. Instead you should quietly go about helping others who are stuck in their staff work and quietly teach what you know at your own place until you are wanted and needed.

Humility is power that's why an uke can learn but it's also why some teachers progress.

Regards.G.

[Tenyu]

Graham,

See my signature.

Introspection starts within not without.

I'm already teaching successfully.

[graham christian]

Graham,

See my signature.

Introspection starts within not without.

I'm already teaching successfully.

Tenyu.
A signature means nothing.

Humility is within.

I am glad if you are teaching and even happier if it is going successfully. As I recall you said in your early posts that no one turned up, hence my 'if'

Well, if you are and it's going well then I offer my congratulations.

Regards.G.

[Tenyu]

The basic one-count shomen from chudan kamae with the staff is the most difficult fundamental Aikido weapons technique. O Sensei never did it on film and I don't think he ever did it off film either. The one-count shomen-nage is also the only basic that has no true taijitsu equivalent.

[mathewjgano]

The basic one-count shomen from chudan kamae with the staff is the most difficult fundamental Aikido weapons technique.
Difficult in what terms? How would you describe the reason for the difficulty?
Take care,
Matt

[Tenyu]

Difficult in what terms? How would you describe the reason for the difficulty?
Take care,
Matt

The range of locations both of nage and staff at any given moment during the shomen is so tiny that in practical terms a range doesn't exist, only one location both in time and space is possible. Any deviation or error will cause the shomen to fail.

Medium or high frequency activations are also impossible when done correctly due to the nature of nage's structure. The strike's energy 'wants' to disperse, only a certain level of perfection will allow it to concentrate for lower frequency activations. The psychological implications are immense and it's by far the most humbling form of all.

[mathewjgano]

The range of locations both of nage and staff at any given moment during the shomen is so tiny that in practical terms a range doesn't exist, only one location both in time and space is possible. Any deviation or error will cause the shomen to fail.

Medium or high frequency activations are also impossible when done correctly due to the nature of nage's structure. The strike's energy 'wants' to disperse, only a certain level of perfection will allow it to concentrate for lower frequency activations. The psychological implications are immense and it's by far the most humbling form of all.

Thank you, Tenyu. So it's harder because there is less space to move in?
Also, would it be accurate for me to think of high or low frequencies as high or low kinetic levels? I imagine the peak rate of acceleration as representing the peak of the wave when you speak of frequency. Does that fit with your meaning?

[Tenyu]

Thank you, Tenyu. So it's harder because there is less space to move in?
Also, would it be accurate for me to think of high or low frequencies as high or low kinetic levels? I imagine the peak rate of acceleration as representing the peak of the wave when you speak of frequency. Does that fit with your meaning?

When you say less space, it connotes a small range. In absolute terms I'm not sure if I can say a range of any size exists at all.

Any strike's energy is the greatest at the activation and high frequencies do carry a lot more kinetic energy than low frequencies. This doesn't mean the shomen's not powerful though, being able to achieve 'one space' perfection carries a type of power immeasurable by any scientific means.

[jester]

You only achieved a Kyu ranking and you are opening a school??

I saw the Jo Kata and wasn't impressed at all (although the beach looked really nice). I didn't read the entire 11 pages, just the first post so forgive me if this was all a joke.

After over a year of independent study by myself

For those concerned with rank, I'm officially a 4th kyu in Karate and Aikido.

I trained in Aikido for two and a half years at Tom Read Sensei's dojo