Against Wrestlers and Graplers

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[DavidM]

Hey all, I was just wondering...while training in Aikido I was wondering how well our techniques would be on say...a wrestler who tends to bend over and grab you , or a grappler...even that of a kickboxer...in our class we are not shown any techniques against a kick, (or atleast not yet). So would I be able to defend myself against any of the three? No...I don't plan on getting in a fight anytime soon, and I don't go around with the feeling that I'm gonna get in a fight, but I would still like to know ...

I'm 6 foot tall and only 120lbs...I've always been picked on my whole life...that's partly why I started taking Aikido, as a self defense, but not that much of a "Harming" self defense...:D

[ChrisDuSCAMB]

Originally posted by DavidM
Hey all, I was just wondering...while training in Aikido I was wondering how well our techniques would be on say...a wrestler who tends to bend over and grab you , or a grappler...even that of a kickboxer...in our class we are not shown any techniques against a kick, (or atleast not yet). So would I be able to defend myself against any of the three? No...I don't plan on getting in a fight anytime soon, and I don't go around with the feeling that I'm gonna get in a fight, but I would still like to know ...

I'm 6 foot tall and only 120lbs...I've always been picked on my whole life...that's partly why I started taking Aikido, as a self defense, but not that much of a "Harming" self defense...:D

Hi David,

The Aikido's technics efficiency is a current question, often discuss in the forum.
IMHO, many many long time is needed for reaching a good efficiency in our technics. In the dojo, we works with partner whose the intention are not the same as in the street. The attacks and technics are codified and there is no real threat.
If you search mainly in the Aikido, the self defense aspect, maybe it is not a good choice, see karate or jujitsu or self-defence training.
Even if for many practionners, the self-defence reason was the primary motivation, with the year, we research other things in the Aikido pratice.
Your first Aikido's training years will learn you vigilance, help you to evaluate a threat, keep your distance for your safety from your attacker and so on but not how to defend in a street fighting.... :confused:

Bye

have fun :p

[DavidM]

As I said, I do not plan on getting in a fight anytime soon, nor do I go around with the feeling of start or getting into a fight. I was just kind of curious as to how well Aikido would stand up to Wrestlers/Kickboxers/Grapplers. I know it takes much time in Aikido Training to serve as a good self defense tool, I also know that I do not plan on quitting my Aikido trainging and that I will continue to train in Aikido until I am physically or mentally not able to do so anymore...
Thanks:)

[paw]

David,

Perhaps the simpliest thing to say is find a wrestler(freestyle, folkstyle or greco)/judo player/bjj'er/sambist, etc... and train with them until you reach the desired result.

Alternatively, you could train in wrestling, judo, bjj (what have you) for a bit or attend a summer camp.

Regards,

Paul

[Bruce Baker]

Although the many advanced teachers and those with years of experience will say that vigilence, awareness will not allow grappling to happen in most situations, in some situations it absolutely will.

Grappling will become a chess game of who can wiggle and reverse jointlocks or position into a superior position that attains submission or breaking/damageing another human beings anatomy. Many times, striking to interrupt this process will allow you to use your Aikido training and some of its techniques ... your training from kneeling positions will make you more comfortable in these things.

There is no simple solution to training for all contingentcies? It ain't gonna happen!

There are a number of "Soft" targets on the human anatomy, learning how to use those for striking to interrupt the attacker is the first defense of nearly all striking arts. We do not always get into them in Aikido, but these areas would be the off limits areas during grappling practice ... so study them, and learn what type of strikes are effective.

Conversely, you will then have to defend these prime areas.

Maybe, if you learn these things, you will also understand why you should be alert when practicing Aikido, and how these soft areas are prime defense areas.

FYI: Soft areas are those easily access with a poke or low impact strike. Eyes, throat, wrists, elbows, knees, and some organ strikes.

Understand, this research is to understand the defensive techniques causing the least damage to protect yourself. This should be your only concern with learning these things out side of your Aikido practice.

[SeiserL]

IMHO, even though we tend not to train against boxers, kickers, gapplers, or legitimate knife attacks (FMA), the principles still apply well. After a great deal of training, begin practicing with people from other arts and see for yourself.

Until again,

Lynn
Nidan Tenshinkai Aikido
Lucaylucay Kali JKD

BTW: I just finished drafting and submitting a series of articles on this very subject.

[DavidM]

Lynn,

Where can I get these articles, I would be very interested in reading them...:D

[SeiserL]

>Where can I get these articles, I would be very interested in reading them>

Actually, they just got submitted the Black Belt Magazine. The Editor requested them after a photo shoot of Sensei Phong (July 2002)on Tenshinkai Aikido. I will try to keep the forum in the loop. Sensei Phong will also be in the October issue of Martial Arts and Combat Sports.

Until again,

Lynn
Nidan Tenshinkai Aikido
Lucaylucay Kali JKD

[Detective Dobbs]

Good question,since wrestling is so popular theses days it seems everyone wants to know if they could defend against that style of an attack.The best way to get better at something is to practice correctly against or with it.Find a high school wrestler/judo,jj player and practice!And the same goes with kicks or kicking,stricking arts.Peace

[ronmar]

I don't mean to depress you, but I don't think you would have much chance against a good wrestler/grappler at 6 foot and 120lbs. You are very light for your height and so would be easy to lift and throw.
If you are really interested in self defence, would it be possible for you to put on some weight? If not then I guess aikido is as good a bet as anything, but you would have to get very good.

[Jermaine Alley]

David,
Your comments or questions come at a good time. I had posted a discussion question dealing with the same aspects of altercations some time back...you know, to get some good replies.
I have recently found that I can somewhat cater my defenses to include ground work. I have been studying for a short time considering the amount of experience on the web here..but i have found that now that I have a really basic understanding of our "basic techniques", I can start to begin to figure out defenses for other attacks...be it kicks, or grappling moves etc.
Remember that aikido does have some historical ties to jujutsu which encompasses a bunch of different attacks.
All I can say is that there is a wealth of information out here on the web, and even probably in your own dojo. We have a few people in our school that have a basic understanding of ground work and kick defenses. Take some time out and try to build on that experience that is out here.
The term for unlimited martial creativity is Takemusu...(please correct me anyone, if I am using it improperly)....So once you have a basic understanding of how your particular system works, build on it. It is the person that makes the martial art, which ever one it is......Good Luck..
Jermaine

[L. Camejo]

Hi All,

David: As said before, try to train with ppl that are pretty skilled in the ma that you have questions about, while using your aikido. The other thing would be to train a bit in those ma to get a feel for the rationale behind their principles (kinda like being uke to feel a technique and therefore understand it).

Very important, understand the ma ai of these arts. Aikido works when you make the other guy move by your rules. You are the conductor, they are the instruments. This means to keep your distance and tempt him to attack on your terms, placing you in a favourable tactical position.

I applied this while sparring with a few Judoka and TKD guys after tournament. Judoka and BJJ guys love to grab you to put you on the ground where they are strong. Since they like to grab, I dangled one of my hands temptingly in front of the guy while keeping maai. The Judo/BJJ ma ai (generally) is a lot closer than the Aikido maai, so the guy had to reaally come at me to get me, when he did, I let him grab my wrist, quick tenkan, easy kotegaeshi. He never knew what hit him.

There are only 2 strikes in Aikido, when the attacker strikes at you and when the attacker strikes the ground :)

As long as you think you have to "fight" i.e. extended combat with a person, rolling on the ground, blocking and jabbing - you have lost your "Aikido" initiative in my book, which is to end the conflict from the outset. At this point, best to switch to something else like jj or judo and striking.

An example of this concept is in special warfare, regardless of how well trained a SEAL Team may be, they are designed for quick ambush type ops, not sustained engagement against an entire infantry division. As such, they must dictate combat on their terms and not engage a larger enemy on a man to man basis. Hence, ambush and guerilla tactics. Most Aikidoka are not trained to fight to to toe with a skilled striker, of grapple on the ground with a skilled grappler (most, not all). As such, we have to defeat them on our terms if we want to control the conflict using "Aikido".

I hope this helps.
Just my 2 cents.
L.C.:ai::ki:

[REK]

Originally posted by L. Camejo

Very important, understand the ma ai of these arts. Aikido works when you make the other guy move by your rules. You are the conductor, they are the instruments. This means to keep your distance and tempt him to attack on your terms, placing you in a favourable tactical position
......As long as you think you have to "fight" i.e. extended combat with a person, rolling on the ground, blocking and jabbing - you have lost your "Aikido" initiative in my book, which is to end the conflict from the outset. At this point, best to switch to something else like jj or judo and striking
.......As such, we have to defeat them on our terms if we want to control the conflict using "Aikido".



This is the single best response to the "Aikido vs 'x'" and "why doesn't Aikido work" debates. You have really summarized it nicely. This reminds me of something Bill Gleason used to say: "Aikido is what you use when your attacker does everything right". :D

I think it also does a good job of showing the beginning of that sticky discussion about whether Aikido "succeeds" when one avoids the confrontation altogether. The practitioner's response should be the same whether the conflict is verbal or has "gone hot". Ma-ai. Be in the center of the circle, make uke move around you. As in kenjutsu, when the blades can touch, the encounter is over. Extended boxing/grappling/locking is not Aikido, philosophically or practically.

Larry, can I print and post your response on our message board at the dojo? Hoooyah.

REK

[L. Camejo]

Originally posted by REK

Larry, can I print and post your response on our message board at the dojo? Hoooyah.

REK

Thanks for the remarks Rek.

Sure you can post my stuff on your board. The price for the royalties is free training with you guys if I'm ever in your area.:D

Can't get enough.
L.C.:ai::ki:

[wanderingwriath]

This question has been posed a hundred times about Aikido versus a hundred styles of fighting. The one word answer remains the same. Maai

[Dangus]

I know I have little practical experience with Aikido, and am only getting to know it on the surface, but from what I have studied so far, it really seems like O Sensei did have some aspects of attack in the art, that were either used to engage the opponent into a throw/pin/deflection, or, in a bind, to strike them outright.

From what I have observed and read, Aikido is strongly based on the movements of a swordfighter, and sword fighters certainly are at no disadvantage against a wrestler.

Didn't O Sensei say something like "When you have a sword, act like you have none. When you have no sword, act like you have one"? My interpretation of that is that you should not always rely on the sword to do all the work, you should have it compliment your ki, but when you do not have a sword, don't lose sight of it's nature. I could be wrong, but I suspect I'm not. A sword can be used for fancy dancing and staged combat, but it can also subtly be turned into a brutal strike if necessary.

I would suspect strongly that if a wrestler came at O Sensei and cornered him, O Sensei would have smacked him sensless...

[ChristianBoddum]

Hi !

I also wanna give Camejo thumps up,well put

indeed.

And for Dangus,sure stage figthing can be done

with swords,but the japanese sword is not designed for fencing as it is a twohand sword.

I have thin wrists but when someone grabs me thats not what the experience,a friend of mine

a FMA nidan says it feels like I have the root of a tree,It doesn't always seem that way in the dojo because it's a different situation,but there is something to the natural power you develop in aikido that has

surprised quite a few people around me by now,

including a wrestler.

Oyasumi nasai from yours truly.

[paw]

In retrospect I was too polically correct in my original post.

I can only speak from my experiences, so other's mileage may vary.

Since 1997 I've trained brazilian jiu jitsu. During that time I have trained with and competed against wrestlers. Living in the midwest, wrestlers are fairly common athletes.

Physically, an average high school wrestler (folkstyle) who has wrestled for 3 years, ends their senior year more physically fit than 95% of aikidoka. Let me clarify this. Take a competitive runner. While the runner would trounce nearly any wrestler in, say a 5K run, a wrestler the same size is faster, stronger (both in absolute strength, power, and static strength to just name a few types of strength), quicker (both in terms of reaction time and acceleration) most likely more flexible and certainly has better anaerobic endurance). Add to this significantly better balance (base), a higher pain tolerance, a strong and high work ethic and a good degree of agressiveness and what you have is a formidable athlete.

At the colligiate level (folkstyle and greco roman) the bar gets raised considerably. At the national and internation level (freestyle and greco roman) and you have an individual who is more athletic than the average person can imagine.

The United States is unique in that wrestlers start with folkstyle not freestyle (Olympic wrestling). Folkstyle strongly awards control through riding time. In short, US wrestlers tend to be strong mat wrestlers (ne waza). Unless the aikidoka trains with an emphasis on ground work (Mits Yamashita does this), the aikidoka lacks the skill set to escape from the ground and in my experience keep a wresler on the ground, much less execute a pin or submission hold --- barring extreme skill differences or size differences.

While I agree that maai is the key consider:

1. a wrestler can shoot from a distance further than an aikidoka can effectively kick or punch.

2. the distance where both individuals can grip in preparation for a throw (commonly called the clinch range in bjj or the trapping range in jkd) is where the wrestler has a ton of experience. All wrestling matches start in the distance and greco roman wrestlers are unbelievably skilled at this range.

But again, this is my experience. There's no need to take my word for it. The Iowa Hawkeyes still have open practices. Watch one. Better yet, after practice walk onto the mat wearing a shirt that reads "I support Title IX" on the front and "We need to cut wrestling so we can have more women's sports" on the back and ask for a match. See how you fare.

Of course, I imagine someone will point out that they are referring to a street fight, not a sportive match. Ok. Again, watch an Iowa practice. Now tell the wrestlers that they can punch, kick, bite, ambush their victim, gang up on their victim, etc.... Do you really think that would make it a better situation?

Regards,

Paul

[jk]

Thanks for mentioning Mits Yamashita, Paul...here's an article from ATM:

http://www.aiki.com/sneak/yamashita.html

For me, it's a very good read, but then that's just preaching to the converted. I certainly would love to cover the breadth of training Yamashita Sensei covered. Too bad there's not much BJJ around these parts...

Regards,

[Dean H.]

David,

Your question is so interesting just in the way it is worded and due to to your body-build.

There are many decisive replies here already,

but I wanted to throw in my cents-worth.

I wrestled in high school and know there are

many techniques from that arena that are unusual to an aikidoka. Furthermore, I agree with the sentiment that a real "fighter" in great shape is a very formidable opponent for an average person contemplating Aikido.

Kick defenses and grappling are part of Aikido, if you stick with it long enough, however, I agree whole-heartedly with others that you should train within the art that worries you. I have done a little bit of TKD and Sombo and assure you it is a very different approach and feel than similar things you will encounter in Aikido.

Others have said it better than me:

Aikido will teach you, in the long run,

centeredness, timing, how to take balance, etc.

O-Sensei, remember, was more about spiritual application than fighting. Also, he was very competent in sumo as well as sword and jujutsu techniques, so don't discount cross training; however, it is up to all of us to study diligently why he moved away from these hard and competitive styles and formalized

Aikido.

Thanks for your patience...

[Kevin Wilbanks]

All these 'does x really work against y?' discussions seem to go in the same direction, because the question is flawed. If you are serious about self-defense and winning real street fights, putting all your eggs in one basket is absurd. Aikido alone is a fairly small basket. By all reliable accounts, most real fights are ugly - it's difficult to discern styles or techniques, and there are no rules. Strategic concerns about what techniques are effective at what distance, etc... are important, but how you deal with extreme emotional stress and a million random particularities of the situation might end up being more important - who's drunk, tired, who grabs what, who's not paying attention at a key instant, who has friends present, the environment, etc...

Again, counting on a practice of limited scope like Aikido to make you into some kind of street super-hero is foolish. The same goes for any given grappling or pugilism style. To even get a start at being a competent street warrior, you would need to be comfortable with striking and grappling - standing and on the ground. That's just simple logic. Next, you'd have to train with sufficient intensity that your training might be some reasonable approximation of a street fight. This means training much rougher than 99% of what goes on in Aikido - it means getting bruises, welts, and pulled muscles routinely, and getting more serious injuries, like concussions and damaged joints fairly regularly. If you're not training that hard, I doubt the reality factor is very credible. Personally, I don't feel the need for that kind of readiness in my life justifies the cost.

Another factor to consider: where I live, concealed carry permits are a guaranteed right to non-criminals by state law. Permits are common. If you choose to take someone on, you may soon be staring down the barrel of a .38 or .45. No matter where I am, I almost always carry a one-hand-opening knife with a 3.5 inch locking razor sharp blade, which might prove inconvenient if you decide to take me down and wrestle me. While you're doing your million-dollar moves on someone, five of their friends could be spreading out behind you....

Let go of the delusion that martial arts practice will make you invincible or even much more than slightly more lucky than the next guy. Practice because you enjoy the activity and want to gain the many benefits it has to offer... superhero status isn't one of them.

K.

[Kevin Wilbanks]

Physically, an average high school wrestler (folkstyle) who has wrestled for 3 years, ends their senior year more physically fit than 95% of aikidoka. Let me clarify this. Take a competitive runner. While the runner would trounce nearly any wrestler in, say a 5K run, a wrestler the same size is faster, stronger (both in absolute strength, power, and static strength to just name a few types of strength), quicker (both in terms of reaction time and acceleration) most likely more flexible and certainly has better anaerobic endurance). Add to this significantly better balance (base), a higher pain tolerance, a strong and high work ethic and a good degree of agressiveness and what you have is a formidable athlete.
I agree with this sentiment completely. From what I've seen, very few Aikidoka spend any significant effort on conditioning outside of their Aikido practice. I think the mysticism gets in the way. People seem to think that Aikido alone will somehow get them into great physical condition without having to go through all the effort that athletes in most other endeavors take for granted. Getting a good portion of Aikidoka off their butts and doing some basic, general strength/hypertrophy work and endurance intevals would be a start - not to even mention the kind of training for the kind of activity-specific adaptations you describe. 3 workouts per week totaling about 1.5 hours would make a world of difference. If more were serious about conditioning, the level of training would rise, and respect for Aikido in these kind of 'what if' discussions might improve too.

Kevin Wilbanks, CSCS

[PeterR]

A couple of quick comments.

Any martial art which contains a component of physical contact is going to prepare you better than one that does not. Roughly speaking the greater the degree of pain and discomfort the better.

One of the most effective ways to do this without gross injury is sport - boxing, wrestling, kick boxing, even some forms of Aikido - all good.

Never quite understood the suggestion that somehow a Judo player for example is less capable of making the transition to nasty because he does a sport whereas this is not a problem with kata only training. I think those trained in combat sport can a) adapt much easier under pressure and b) take much more punishment. Relatively speaking of course.

It's not the art its the training method.

[villrg0a]

Hey David,

During long years of martial art practice, you will learn several techniques, etc. Some schools will even train you offensive and defensive techniques say against a tae-kwon-do or a karate practitioner.

Just by one look at your opponent you should be able to tell what style he practices, you can tell by his stance(s).

If you ever have to be engaged in a fight against a grappler or a wrestler, your best shot would be a one swift super fast snap jab, followed by a rear cross. Just like the JKD masters would say, better finish off a fight with one hit rather than a combination of several techniques.

But then again, it takes time to master speed in relation to distance.

Just my two cents.

Regards

[Jim ashby]

In the world of the "one shot knockout" I would paraphrase Wyatt Earp (I think!) " Speed's fine, accuracy's final".

Have fun.

[Wiley_Allard]

As a student of tkd my specaility may be only in striking BUT keep in mind you can adjust your style agaienst grapplers. for one most grapplers tend to forget to protect thier head and body thus leaving them open to uppercuts and one inch punches . Keep in mind that if they rush you simply lend them a small boost in the direction their trying for *wink*. Keep in mind though akkido throws actualy take much less energy then my style and rember slow movement and to get the heck out of the way if you perfom the movements corretly (that is one of the major points strengh though correctness of tech not strengh or speed) if you do this in single combat you will be completely in control and very well able to end the fight as you wish.

[uke78]

Paw and PeterR are correct. Try going to a judo, bjj, or wrestling class. I went and got absolutely schooled. Nothing is funnier to them than traditional martial artists who think they can win with one punch or kick. I knew that already so I didn't try any funny business with them of course. Watching UFC and Pride objectively basically told me I had zero chance against these guys. They are not going to be faked out by irimi or tenkan. But watching it on tv is nothing like being there. At first I thought OK I can get up, but you can't, you're stuck down there and then they triangle you or armbar you. Obviously lots of aikido people are clueing into this now so that's really good. Back in the 50s everybody knew this already because they all did judo. Lots of aikido guys do judo so there is good knowledge there. Of course I still think aikido is the best for many reasons.

[Kevin Leavitt]

You can tell his style if he studies one thing. I pride myself on having studied many systems.

I believe you would find it suprising to "spar" with me. I typically start out like a karate guy and then deviate more into grappling.

However, I have been known to take a boxing stance too!

To quote O'Sensei:

"Do not stare into the eyes of your opponent: he may mesmerize you. Do not fix your gaze on his sword: he may intimidate you. Do not focus on your opponent at all: he may absorb your energy. The essence of training is to bring your opponent completely into your sphere. Then you can stand just where you like".

O'Sensei as translated by John Stevens.

That said...it is true you can tell most fighters styles by their stances, especially if they have no depth in varied experiences!

[davoravo]

Attack your opponent where he is weakest. What is against the rules in grappling competition? Eye jabs, gouges, pinches, grabbing the groin. The minute you start doing these grappling is a waste of time.

[PeterR]

Attack your opponent where he is weakest. What is against the rules in grappling competition? Eye jabs, gouges, pinches, grabbing the groin. The minute you start doing these grappling is a waste of time.
Again that wonderful assumption that the grappler can't shift his tactics to the nasty or has an intention to play by the rules in the first place. If you are going to take on a grappler do it before he is in a grappling position. A swift knee to the face as he charges in come to mind - could you do that? Not sure I could.

The equation is really quite simple:

On the ground the advantage a grappler has far outweighs the chance that you can be nastier than him.

[villrg0a]

does anybody here have a first hand experience with grapplers, judoist or wrestlers? Please share your eperience(s) if so? :)

[Bruce Baker]

If you are so concerned about having skills that apply to wrestlers and grapplers, then you will have to go and practice with them.

But ... if you observe the movements in many of your Aikido techniques, they do translate into strikes, offensive movements, and manipulations that come from Jujitsu or are taken into Karate.

Practice your Aikido, do your homework, and maybe ... this moot subject will finally be put to rest.

Wrestlers/ Grapplers need to use more Aikido cause they ain't gonna stay young forever, and their art is a young persons game.

[paw]

villarrg,

I trained in aikido for 5 1/2 years.

I also have plenty of experience against ground fighters. Since 1997 I've trained with and competed against wrestlers, judo players, bjj'ers and sambists. Experience levels of those I've randori'ed with have ranged from newbies to national/international level in their respective art.

Did you have a more specific question?

Regards,

Paul

[villrg0a]

Bruce

thanks for your input Bruce, rest assure i will practice more on my aikido techniques. We have 3 sessions/week @ 2 hrs/ session. I am not it a hurry to jump to the next level, I am taking it slow this time so that I could absorb the techniques more easily.

Paul

I've seen the ultimate fight no.1 where a jujitsu guy defeated everybody in that game. He dives down to his opponents feet in his attacks and had successfully brought all of them down. What would you do if you sparr with the same style and approach of attack? Thanks!

[paw]

villarrg,
I've seen the ultimate fight no.1 where a jujitsu guy defeated everybody in that game. He dives down to his opponents feet in his attacks and had successfully brought all of them down. What would you do if you sparr with the same style and approach of attack? Thanks!
It's been a while since I've seen UFC I. I don't recall Gracie attacking in the manner you've described. <shrugs>

What I think you've described is a wrester's shot, most likely a double leg (http://www.lesgutches.com/techniques/double.htm) --- in judo this throw would be called morotegari. In the link, the wrestler finishes by dumping his opponent forward. Gracie would have finished by dumping his opponent on his back.

Personally, I would sprawl (I couldn't find any images, but click here for verbal description) (http://stickgrappler.tripod.com/ug/ccsprawl.html). After sprawling, I'd keep presure on the wrestler then do whatever. But that's me personally. I know a number of aikidoka that would not want to sprawl because they feel that doing so is playing the wrestler's game.

Regards,

Paul

[Wiley_Allard]

With all due respect, some times one must play some one else game to win. If your a standing fighter your going to have a lot of trouble againest a grappler why? because a grappler is used to making to making you fight his way. So lets face you need at LEAST basic wrestling and grounding fighting skills. Keep in mind if the grappler does get you your back and goes for body press (chest to chest pin) keep in mind if they come over your legs theyll be open to the circle throw a mistake i made myself againest Steph one of my schools black belt in a pankraction match in my case i wass tossed out of the ring.

[Ron Tisdale]

From a post on a thread on aikido journal...

I have found that the biggest problem for aikido vs ground fighters is ending up on the ground in the ground fighters control due to an inability to handle people shooting in for a double or single leg (with good wrestling posture). Once you are on the ground in their control, its really too late...you are in their range, and good training in that range (which they have) will almost always win out.

The best thing that I have seen that aikido has to offer against landing in that situation is the 45 degree pivot, combined with some method of controling the head (the classic wrestling crossface works very well). Using this combination (and some others), it becomes much easier to maintain a stable base (usually a kneeling base) and it opens the door for aikido's kneeling techniques, and helps to offset the advantage a ground fighter would normally have. Its no different from the usual aikido principles in that:

1) you maintain your posture

2) you break the posture of uke

3) you put your strength against the weakness that uke's broken posture provides.

Basically, you control the maai from the outset, rather than having to recover from a bad position on the ground. I have found this to work well against well trained wrestlers, once the idea has sunk into practise. Because of their conditioning and natural habit to drive through on a shoot, staying relaxed and maintaining posture and balance are extremely important.

Ron (for what its worth) Tisdale

see the entire thread (highly recommended)

http://65.119.177.201/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=9&t=000884

[Sam]

I have been practising Judo for about a year now and try to compete as often as I can. Because of the friendly atmosphere at the club, I have often been able to try my aikido out on Judoka of different experience levels.

When I first started, I found the most difficult thing to overcome was my vunerability to footsweeps, but I found that I was able to get out of most strangles due to the techniques I had already learnt to overcome them (as seen in the Shodokan Goshin no kata and Nage no kata). Now I have a bit of experience I try not to come to far out of shi zen tai as judoka are waiting for you to assume stance so then can attack it. I think trying to avoid a grab is a lot more difficult than most people make out - most grappling people spend a lot of time fighting for grips and will be experts at closing distance. The best thing to do if this happens seems to be to try to get a wrist lock on (i.e. nikyo using your gi) as quick as possible and put it on like there's no tomorrow. Sometimes this also works if you are in a desparate position on the ground and you manage to get hold of a hand/arm.

Also what a lot of people don't realise about judo is that there are atemi waza and a lot of techniques aikido people would find familiar (see 'Kodokan Judo' by Kano Jigoro) to you can't count out getting punched in the face!

[Wiley_Allard]

in response to the idea of the cross face it is a good tech but keep in mind a well trained wrestlier TRAINS to avoid it. all that you have to do to avoid a cross face is to keep your head to the inside of hte leg rendering the cross face near useless iam not critizing iam just saying that a "well trained" wrestle would likely do that but it is an often made mistake in a fight (i should know ive been caught in it before)

[Guest5678]

Upper cut.... upper cut.... upper cut. Get under the chin, press the head up and back. They can hold on all they want, the neck only tolerates so much pressure....

-Mongo

[paw]

Mongo,
Upper cut.... upper cut.... upper cut. Get under the chin, press the head up and back. They can hold on all they want, the neck only tolerates so much pressure....

In what context? That's not going to work if the wrestler has shot a double or single. A cross face would be the tool of choice in that case.

Uppercuts may be a strategy for an upperbody clinch, but I wouldn't count on it. Wrestler's have good clinch skills and would probably change levels and shoot if they thought they would eat a punch.

Regards,

Paul

[Ron Tisdale]

in response to the idea of the cross face it is a good tech but keep in mind a well trained wrestlier TRAINS to avoid it.
Actually, having been a wrestler myself, I'm quite familiar with their tricks :)

95 degree pivot, crosstep back (maintain forward focus and posture), 95 pivot, exposes the head just fine for the crossface. I learned this practising with a former wrestler who went to states in PA.

Ron Tisdale

[Guest5678]

Mongo,



In what context? That's not going to work if the wrestler has shot a double or single. A cross face would be the tool of choice in that case.

Uppercuts may be a strategy for an upperbody clinch, but I wouldn't count on it. Wrestler's have good clinch skills and would probably change levels and shoot if they thought they would eat a punch.

Regards,

Paul
Paul,

I'm also a former wrestler from Neb. If you've allowed the guy in for the shot (single or double), it's too late. You must catch them on the way in. Cross face allows them to pivot off your arm.

There is no where to go but up or back with the upper cut. If they try to pivot off the uppercut it turns into a cross face but at that point, they've already extended themselves and "normally" can't pivot further.... it's really too dynamic of a situation to say one particular thing will work, too many variables here....

-Mongo

[opherdonchin]

I have no experience of fighting and just a little bit of experience in cross-training, but my intuition tells me that a martial artist who is stronger, faster, more relaxed, and has more years of experience will usually be able to beat one who is weaker, slower, tense and inexperienced.

(In Hebrew we say, "It's better to be young, healthy, beautiful and rich than old, sick, ugly and poor.")

[Wiley_Allard]

Ron thank you VERY much for that new lesson ill put it to good use the thought had never occured to me

[Wiley_Allard]

OH speaking of which to get of the the double id do as a wrestler would just use the sprawl. Keep in mind there is a down side to groudn fighting as most wrestlers know it takes huge amouts of agility and strengh and lots and lots and LOTS of training. It also wears you out fast, now in pankration you deal with both ground and free fighting as well as grappling. now that think about it id proably go for a simple counter get an arm and put in a figure 8 lock that should atleast slow him down

i dont pretend to be bright but with my limted knowledge its the only real idea i can come up with

[Wiley_Allard]

oh and sorry for the multi post but id like to point out the figure 8 arm lock is excellent tool since it can be done from standing , straddling *oppent*, or under side (on your back any way). its my absolute favorite hold and once its in your oppent will forget all about punching its not too hard to bring an oppent his knees with it and from ther they have no base to use againest you just keep in mind for you other guy step to the side or your um endowments will be left wide open

[paw]

Mongo,

Are you uppercutting prior to the shot or as the shot is beginning (wrestler has changed levels, is starting penetration step)?

In either case, or even if the wrestler has grabbed a leg (or two) I can't get uppercuts to work....maybe my timing is poor?

Regards,

Paul

[Kevin Leavitt]

With a good grappler, he while "hug" tight and control your center, it can be very difficult to get an effective punch on him up close.

As a grappler, I really don't care if you are hitting me as long as it is not a vital area. If you are good, you position yourself to protect these as you grapple.

Even though you are making contact, it is not heavy enough to do any real damage since the grappler is not a extension of you body as is moving with the punches absorbing them.

If you don't know how to grapple, then don't grapple, keep em off you.

Having been there done that in my past, and having studied the UFC stuff quite extensively...the biggest mistake I see fighters of hitting/kicking styles make, is to quickly abandon their style once a grappler "shoots" and "moves".

I believe I already posted this, but to beat a grappler at grappling, you should learn to grapple. If not, then don't fight his fight!

[Kevin Leavitt]

oops last post should have read "since the grappler is NOW an extension of your body"

[sanskara]

There's no doubt about it, a grappler can be a formidable opponent.

On the other hand, I once witnessed a fight in the back alley behind a bar between a brown belt in Gracie Jiujitsu and a pot-smoking, out-of-shape hippie, who later told me he'd never been in a serious altercation before.

To everyone's suprise, he beat the Hell out of the trained grappler, to the point where other students from the Dojo had to jump in and intercede. I had also trained a bit at that same Gracie Dojo and can vouch for the brown belt's ability on the mat, but thought the guy deserved to get his clock cleaned, and so sat back and watched the magic unfold--he got no help from me that night.

The fight did go to the ground (predictably enough) but in this one encounter, at least, bjj did not give the grappler the upperhand on asphalt. It was embarrassing for the trained martial artist, especially since there was no significant discrepancy in size or weight.

I guess the moral of the story is that sometimes fighting Spirit wins out over technique. What does this have to do with Aikido? Not much. But it just goes to show 'ya: you can't make too many hard and fast rules or generalizations; reality can be the harshest of teachers, and just may suprise you at the wost time possible.

[Guest5678]

Mongo,

Are you uppercutting prior to the shot or as the shot is beginning (wrestler has changed levels, is starting penetration step)?

In either case, or even if the wrestler has grabbed a leg (or two) I can't get uppercuts to work....maybe my timing is poor?

Regards,

Paul
Paul,

When he starts the penetration step, his head starts down for the shoot in, place one palm on his forehead (his arms are going for the legs) no need to push yet as he's coming in and will do that for you, your other palm goes under his chin. Push up and back..... be prepared for him to try and twist out of it, but by then you should have the lead... try it slow as it can have a very bad affect on your training partners neck.... control the head...

-Mongo

[PeterR]

Cool - you know of course Mongo that in Aikido (specifically Shodokan) that is referred to as shomen-ate. In my opinion, the most effective technique in our arsenal. Kenji Tomiki placed it in first place in his Junanahon - I think for the same reason.
When he starts the penetration step, his head starts down for the shoot in, place one palm on his forehead (his arms are going for the legs) no need to push yet as he's coming in and will do that for you, your other palm goes under his chin. Push up and back..... be prepared for him to try and twist out of it, but by then you should have the lead... try it slow as it can have a very bad affect on your training partners neck.... control the head...

[Guest5678]

Cool - you know of course Mongo that in Aikido (specifically Shodokan) that is referred to as shomen-ate. In my opinion, the most effective technique in our arsenal. Kenji Tomiki placed it in first place in his Junanahon - I think for the same reason.
Peter,

I agree totally! What I was describing in the situation of someone shooting in can also be executed real smooth if your good at reading their movements. I trained with a Nebraska wrestler that could slip that on you so quick that it took a minute for your mind to register why exactly you were now looking at the ceiling.....

We had a great coach though! He put a sign on the ceiling facing down that read:

"If you can read this sign, your butt is in real trouble!"

Note that I have the words memorized! HA!

-Mongo

[Roy Dean]

Aikido is a grappling method, just like Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu or wrestling, but with an emphasis on a different range of combat and utilizing a different training method. One grappling method can defeat another, it happens all the time, but the best way to swing the odds in your favor is to learn the attacks of the other system, and practice high percentage defenses.

In the case of a wrestler, learning how to sprawl and defend a single or double leg takedown is crucial. If this can be done, you've eliminated their game, and now you can begin to work yours.

I began a thread on the similarities between BJJ and Aikido on the general forum. You may find it of interest.

Good training to you,

Roy

[Kevin Leavitt]

I find kicking wrestlers works well since they typically have trained for sport and will shoot without regard for any type of atemi. Since they are usually going below waist level and do not move in a guarded position, they are at the perfect level to be kicked.

I agree Roy, it is all there in Aikido, just depends on how you practice it.

Occassionally I will get with a few fellow students and we will mixed up our atemi in freestyle type sparring and play with the possibilities.

I also agree, if you want to learn to defeat a stylist, study their style. Gen Patton Defeated Rommell because he read his book and studied him very closely.

The best style to have to fight is no style. Bruce Lee believed this.

The U.S. Army prides itself on having established doctrine or principles, but encourages it's leader to take much artistic liberties and freedoms at implementing it. Most of the critiques that have come from our opponents has been that is the single most frustrating thing at trying to strategize against the U.S. Army....the fact that they do not follow their own rules. Follow principles-Yes, tactics-No.

Aikido is designed to teach us certain principles that O'Sensei thought was important based on his philosophy and that helped him achieve his personal peace and enlightment. It was not to develop the ultimate grappler or fighter.

Take the principles that he is teaching through his students, and apply them as you need to reach your own goals!

[Miguel Cuevas]

Great thread, you guys. Very interesting stuff. I've been studying aikido for about 6 months, and about 2 months ago, I began cross training in judo, with my sensei's blessing. My sesei in aikido practiced judo for 22 some years before he began studying aikdo and he always incorporates many ideas from judo into class. Nothing he could have told me could have prepared me for judo randori.

The only thing I remember from my first judo experience was that everything was happening SO fast in randori. In a blink of an eye, I would be sprawled out on my back with someone on the side yelling out, "ippon"! After a couple of classes, I started to catch on, and I have discovered something that my sensei always preaches...simply to RELAX! It's so easy to get caught up in a tug of war with a grappler, especially in the heat of the moment, with fear and adreneline and everything else runinning through your mind and body.

I told myself that I would just go to one judo class. You know, to check it out. Now, I'm addicted to judo randori just as I'm addicted to aikido's relaxing atmosphere and effortless techniques. It's just so damn fun! I cannot recommend cross training in another grappling martial art like judo enough. Aside from a great workout (I've lost 17 lbs of fat in 2 months), you'll catch a glimpse of what a heated struggle, both standing and on the ground, is really like. As my aikido sensei told me before I began attending judo classes,"Judo makes your aikido better, and aikido makes your judo better." Plus, if you get thrown as often as I do, at least your ukemi will get better very quickly!



Oh, and for the record, I beleive aikido is the superior martial art, but judo has the edge in the method of training. Just my honest opinion.

[L. Camejo]

Oh, and for the record, I beleive aikido is the superior martial art, but judo has the edge in the method of training. Just my honest opinion.
I agree with you mostly Miguel. If you ever get the chance to train at a Shodokan Aikido dojo however, you will see the beauty of Aikido taught in a training method that is very similar to that used in Judo, including randori (with and without tanto) with full resistance).

On another note, it's interesting to notice how we are seeing the similarities between arts like Aikido and BJJ and Judo. In fact, some schools see aiki no ri (the aiki principle) as merely an extension of ju no ri (the principle of suppleness). It is believed that the principle of ju no ri is one of the common foundations of Judo and Aikido.

That is why relaxing always helps. When we are relaxed we become more supple (ju), therefore making it easier to blend (aiki).

I really believe that Aikido and Judo are complementary to each other and are merely different parts of the same principle. Judo has the ne waza and katame waza, aikido has the atemi waza and kanseteu waza. Together you have an almost unbeatable combination.

Just my 2 cents

L.C.:ai::ki:

[Sean Moffatt]

All things being equal, if you are up against somebody who knows how to grapple, don't fight his fight. Poke him in the eye. Bite his nose real hard. Stick your entire hand in his mouth and tickle the back of his throat (that should get his attention). Kick him in the b**ls (is balls ok to say? anyways) Do anything to make him want to get the hell away from you. Here's a good one: Self-induced vomiting. Hey, grapplers need to stay close to grapple, make him get away. Have you ever seen how a monkey fights? (yuck) That works too.

Sean

[paw]

Sean,
if you are up against somebody who knows how to grapple,

Roy pointed out earlier that aikido is a grappling method
Poke him in the eye. Bite his nose real hard. Stick your entire hand in his mouth and tickle the back of his throat (that should get his attention). Kick him in the b**ls (is balls ok to say?

Finger/thumb locks might get you out of nikkyo, but I wouldn't count on it. In my experience, "foul tactics" (small joint locks/breaks, eye gouges, biting, pinching, etc...) are too often used as a substitute to solid training in basic technique, which in this case would be establishing a dominant position in the clinch or escaping from a bad position on the ground.

Regards,

Paul

[Sean Moffatt]

Sean,



Roy pointed out earlier that aikido is a grappling method



Finger/thumb locks might get you out of nikkyo, but I wouldn't count on it. In my experience, "foul tactics" (small joint locks/breaks, eye gouges, biting, pinching, etc...) are too often used as a substitute to solid training in basic technique, which in this case would be establishing a dominant position in the clinch or escaping from a bad position on the ground.

Regards,

Paul
Paul,

I know all this. But what one persons "foul tactics" is another persons life saving techniques. I'm sure you can show me a dozen jujitsu techniques that will establish the dominant position. But I'm talking about not fighting your fight. This is not a duel or a match, this is survival. Think of the foul tactics as atemi waza in order to distract the attacker. O'Sensei once commented, "In a fight, Aikido is 70% Atemi, 30% technique."

But then again, you are correct to say that basic technique must be trained extensively.

Sean

[paw]

Sean,
But I'm talking about not fighting your fight.
I understand. And I agree with Roy. Not fighting the other person's fight is having the knowledge and ability to negate their style. For example, being able to sprawl against a wrestler to prevent the takedown (and the subsequent ground fight).
But what one persons "foul tactics" is another persons life saving techniques. ... This is not a duel or a match, this is survival.

I'm well aware of the context. However, there's a thread wherein a fellow was struck with a hatchet twice in the head, ultimately the assilant with the hatchet was killed.

I've heard law enforcement officers talk about people taking tens of full-force knees to the groin, or shots to the neck, or multiple stab wounds from a knife, or multiple rounds from a firearm and they continue to attack in life and death situations.

Regardless of the context (training, sport, competion, self-defense, etc...) the principles and basic techniques to escape from a bad position on the ground remain the same. I've met far too many people who, instead of training basic techniques, simply say "I'll just bite, or pinch, or pull hair, or gouge an eye or ...." And that might work, but I wouldn't count on it. That's my point.

The second thing to consider (and I'll put this in aikido terms) is this: do you really want to try and bite, eye gouge, etc... with a shihan .... what if the shihan decides to bite and eye gouge back?

Regards,

Paul

[Sean Moffatt]

When you refer to shihan, you mean master right? A master technician or martial artist. Martial Arts and it's participants must have coined the phrase, "What if?" Well "What If" I hold up my Ultra-Man star followed with "Rocket-Punch". At least against the "Shihan", I have a height advantage. Poor poor shihan. He or she must be really down on their luck to resort to petty mugging. The problem with these forum strings sometimes is that people are asking questions only they can really answer. For instance, How do you defend against a wrestler or grappler? Easy, pick a fight with one and find out. All the other advice on this forum, including mine, is finely critiqued crap. If you're a sceptic, please stopping asking someones opinion you don't even know. Find out for yourself. Go to a grappling school or an aikido school and figure it out yourself. And those of you out there who have given him your "sage advice". Tell him to find out for themselves. Talking about it and doing it are two different things. One of the great training comments I have been told is "Shut up and train!"

[Roy Dean]

The dirty stuff (eye gouging, biting, etc) can be very effective, IF you have a solid foundation to implement these techniques from. My BJJ instructor has a "holy trinity" of street fighting tactics for the ground, including the eye gouge, nipple bite, and groin grab, and a flow drill for linking these techniques together. When you combine positional dominance with those tactics, even against an opponent trying to do the same dirty tricks, there is no contest. He's trained and tested these methods against live opponents. It is frightening how effective they can be.

"Shut up and train" is a great motto. Words can be debated. Experience cannot!

Generally, I find Aikido techniques (not principles) to be ineffective on the ground. Although i can hit techniques such as kotegaishi occasionally, they are very low percentage moves, and not designed for the ground.

Aikido techniques are designed for their specific range of combat (standing, moderate to close quarter spacing between opponents). Once you hit the ground, Ikkyo turns into a straight armbar, shihonage into Kimura (aka Bent armlock), etc. The techniques are different, as well as their entries, but once learned, the similarities are enormous.

"In fact, some schools see aiki no ri (the aiki principle) as merely an extension of ju no ri (the principle of suppleness). It is believed that the principle of ju no ri is one of the common foundations of Judo and Aikido."

I think this is a brilliant comment. I believe aiki to be idealized ju, or yielding at maximum efficiency. In an actual confrontation, the windows or opportunity for ju are relatively small (of course as you train, your perception of these windows also shifts and they seem larger, whether through visual or tactile stimuli). The windows of opportunity for aiki are even smaller, but they do exist. Perhaps this is why Kano said something akin to aikido being ideal judo after visiting O'Sensei's dojo.

Roy

[Jermaine Alley]

Hey,

I think that you should learn as much about Aikido as you can right now. I am not sure what level of training that you are in, but as your training and experience improves, you will understand how you can make your techniques work on anyone at any time.

I try to incorporate newaza (grappling techniques) in with my aikido techniques when i have the time. The important point to remember about grapplers is that they (if they are the attackers) have to extend themselves in some way, to make what they are doing work. In other words, by reaching out, by slumping for a tackle, by preparing for a sweep...they have to off balance themselves so that they can capture you or bring you into their center.

Aikido teaches me to not allow someone to bring my center into theirs. Take the opportunity, if you can, to make your attacker commit, or over-commit, and then take advantage of that.

I will tackle the kicking side of this later..gotta keep it short...have fun..

jermaine

[Ron Tisdale]

Hmm, my wrestling friends don't extend themselves when shooting. My shotokan friends don't extend themselves when punching or kicking. I myself have been doing aikido too long...I have to watch *I* don't extend when attacking now...

I actually heard some aikido folk say an attacker is automatically "off-balance" just by virtue of attacking...***don't you believe it, not for a second!***

Ron (you must unbalance uke at the moment of contact) Tisdale

Oh, and the person with the dominant position is the one who will be able to use "dirty tricks". No position, no tricks. At least not giving them...recieving...maybe.

[ronmar]

All things being equal, if you are up against somebody who knows how to grapple, don't fight his fight. Poke him in the eye. Bite his nose real hard. Stick your entire hand in his mouth and tickle the back of his throat (that should get his attention). Kick him in the b**ls (is balls ok to say? anyways) Do anything to make him want to get the hell away from you. Here's a good one: Self-induced vomiting. Hey, grapplers need to stay close to grapple, make him get away. Have you ever seen how a monkey fights? (yuck) That works too.

This is the eternal answer you get when you ask a person who doesn't understand grappling what they would do in a grappling situation.

Firstly, if they are a grappler and you are not, they will most likely have control over you on the ground. This will limit your options. Secondly, if you do decide to bite or go for eyes, you will find the grappler doing exactly the same to you, but from a dominant position, with the ability to control your movements, and probably with greater strength, endurance, and pain tolerance gained from their grappling experience.

Thirdly, do you really want to escalate the conflict into something really nasty. If you bite them while they are armlocking or strangling you then you will likely get a broken arm or worse.

I don't think this is suitable advice for a bit of high school bullying or whatever started this thread.

[aikido_fudoshin]

I would just like to say that a grappler should never be able to get a proficient Aikidoka on the ground or grab hold of them for that matter (unless its unexpected). Nobody is going to let someone else walk up to them and put them in a head lock. In a "real" situation grappling is not the best choice for self defence. Wrestlers will mostly try and unbalance you by taking out your legs. The big move is that double leg take down. Sorry doesnt work. Although its quick, a simple knee to the face or grab his head, spring your legs back, and smash his face into the ground. Sure its good for the sport where there are rules, and may be a decent attack against the unknowledgable, but do you really want to grab someone and role around on the ground as self defense? In a real situation your probably going to face your attackers friends aswell.

In Aikido we practice maai and continually practice moving out of the way of the attack whether it be through turning, entering, etc. I see this as the most effective way to learning self defence especially when there is so many ways in which it can be improvised and applied. Id much rather want to move out of the way of an attack, keep my distance, and leave an opening or chance to escape when there are friends around.

[sanosuke]

In Aikido we practice maai and continually practice moving out of the way of the attack whether it be through turning, entering, etc. I see this as the most effective way to learning self defence especially when there is so many ways in which it can be improvised and applied. Id much rather want to move out of the way of an attack, keep my distance, and leave an opening or chance to escape when there are friends around.
Definitely agree, the answer is always the same by the way, maai...timing....maai...timing...

[paw]

I would just like to say that a grappler should never be able to get a proficient Aikidoka on the ground or grab hold of them for that matter (unless its unexpected).

The same thing is said by boxers, thai boxers, kickboxers, karate folks, ad nauseum.... I've never seen a grappler not get a hold of someone and take them to the ground unless the other person had a solid base in grappling.

But don't take my word for it. Canada is home to some fine wrestlers and judoka. And if I'm not mistaken, Igor Yakamov is in Canada as well (sombo). Test it out and see what happens.

The whole "but who wants to roll around on the ground for self-defense?" is a straw man in my mind. Who wants to be in a self-defense situation to begin with?

Regards,

Paul

[Ron Tisdale]

Hi Paul,

While I don't agree with the straw man statement, I am surprised that some still don't acknowledge the strengths of certain other sports/arts. Its quite distressing actually. That kind of close mindedness can be very dangerous. As can making assumptions based on little or no experience. You're right, people who grapple well have shown time and again that they can close the distance, and effectively at that.

As for straw men, as far as self defense goes, I've found that maintaining a stable, mobile base is the most effective strategy, and ground work is definatley the last resort. But if you find yourself there, its best to know what to do...

Ron Tisdale

[ronmar]

The big move is that double leg take down. Sorry doesnt work. Although its quick, a simple knee to the face or grab his head, spring your legs back, and smash his face into the ground.

How can you still believe this stuff? If professional fighters in UFC etc, who train full time and with full contact cannot always defend against a leg takedown, what makes you think you can?

Aikido needs to put fighters into MMA events for a reality check.

[MattRice]

Aikido needs to put fighters into MMA events for a reality check.
Mixed Martial Arts/UFC is not reality, and further, Aikido is not an entity or person that can do this. Aikido (to my understanding) was not developed to engage in organized competition, with rules and rings etc. For instance, you CANNOT spear someone in the hollow of the neck above the breastbone in a UFC match. This atemi is practiced (albeit w/o contact) in our dojo regularly.

It's one thing to theorize about combat with other fighting styles, it's another thing entirely to complain about Aikido not being what you think it should be. You have a problem with Aikido training methods. I would suggest that this problem is yours to solve, not Aikido's. (there's that entity again...)

[paw]

So, Bryan contends that double legs don't work. Ron counters with the UFC, one specific mixed martial art event, where double legs are successfully performed on highly trained, resisting opponents. Matt claims this isn't "real" and as a counter example writes:
For instance, you CANNOT spear someone in the hollow of the neck above the breastbone in a UFC match. This atemi is practiced (albeit w/o contact) in our dojo regularly.

Note: "w/o contact". In other words, a simulated attack.

sim·u·la·tion --- noun ---

An imitation; a sham.

the act of pretending [syn: pretense, pretence, pretending, feigning]

So, what's "real" and who's theorizing?


[edited for spelling]

[MattRice]

Didn't claim that anything was real. Certainly I'm not poking my training partners in the trachea for real.

My point is, that to my understanding the founder of Aikido did not intend for us to use the art for competition. As such, some parts of Aikido would not be suitable for said competition, as they would break the rules.

What I did say regarding reality, is that UFC ain't it. That is, of course my opinion. In the ring, the dudes buddy can't come running out of the bar with a baseball bat while I'm going for my arm bar.

[paw]

Matt,
My point is, that to my understanding the founder of Aikido did not intend for us to use the art for competition.

One name: Kenji Tomiki

Also, there's a distinction between a static training method and a dynamic training method that needs to be made. None of the people I know who compete look at competition as anything other than a more public, dynamic training method, for example. The only differences are: an entry fee (or appearance fee), they don't train with the other people involved, and sometimes there's an audience.

But what the Founder intended and competition are tangental to this discussion, aren't they?
What I did say regarding reality, is that UFC ain't it.

Well, it's not a video game. There's also a distinction that needs to be made as far as context. Normal training involves a number of things that you cannot ethically do as it threatens the health of your partner. A sporting event is no different. That said, an event, like the UFC, is much closer to "reality" than your normal aikido training environment.

Regards,

Paul

[MattRice]

Hi Paul,

Tomiki isn't the founder of Aikido.

I dunno, I think it may be relevant to consider the founder's intentions when trying to fit Aikido into an environment for which it was not originally developed. But you're right, I'm off topic with this.;-)

I shall cease and desist

Matt

[aikido_fudoshin]

The term "real" can be obscure. What I was refering to is a more common self defense situation that often involves a serious threat to your well being. This is not a simulation. It is a common occurance for one to be attacked by multiple persons.

The only thing that might make a UFC event more real is the intent. One guy is trying to hurt the other to win. On the other hand there are rules, and one can not break those rules to win. So I would assume they would train in a way that doesnt allow them to break those rules. Too bad breaking those rules is often the best way of defending yourself. Im sure many of them know how to break the rules but to be succesful in that particular style, you have to train in a different way (ex. grappling which is not the most effective method of self defense). On the other hand we train in a way that shows us how to break those rules with out fully going through with them. We practice it over and over so that it will be engrained in our self defense response. So you have the UFC guy who may have the psychological advantage of experiencing someone trying to kick the crap out of them yet training in a way that is not the most effective for self defense, and then you have the Aikidoka who trains to finish the attack quickly and effectivly without ever experiencing a real threat to their well being. Whats more "real"? What will be more effective? Who the hell knows? :D

[paw]

Bryan,

Rather than parse your post, much of it is based on what the most "effective" way is. How do you determine what "effective" is?

I submit effective in a martial sense is what works against an uncooperative opponent. Who trains/drills/competes against uncooperative opponents? Who's doing that?

Here's a example:

interview with Matt Thornton (http://www.straightblastgym.com/questions.html#questions)

Again, this all a tangent to the original topic. Grappling and groundfighting happens. If self-defense is your concern, you avoid it at your peril.

Regards,

Paul

[ronmar]

What I was referring to is a more common self defence situation that often involves a serious threat to your well being. This is not a simulation. It is a common occurrence for one to be attacked by multiple persons

This is not a good argument. If you get attacked by several adults, then you are probably doomed, whether you try to grapple with them (you can do this standing), or anything else (striking, aikido, etc). I don't believe one person can win against many unless they are very lucky or have a weapon.
On the other hand there are rules, and one can not break those rules to win. So I would assume they would train in a way that doesn't allow them to break those rules. Too bad breaking those rules is often the best way of defending yourself. I'm sure many of them know how to break the rules but to be successful in that particular style, you have to train in a different way (ex. grappling which is not the most effective method of self defence).

Someone was talking about jabs to the throat with their fingers earlier on, so I'll take that as an example of rule breaking as another bad argument. Who do you think is going to be best at jabbing someone in the throat with their fingers.

(i)You, who trains with a helpful and cooperative partner, probably slowly, and with no contact and stress.

(ii) A NHB fighter or boxer who, while not specifically opening up their hands and jabbing to the throat in training, often practices striking a moving and resisting person in the face with their hands, while that person is trying to hit them back.

Its hard to even hit someone in the head at all when they don't want you to, so how does your training prepare you for jabbing fingers into a small part of someone's neck (as an example) when they are attacking you. Same goes for other banned moves. If you tried them in a fight you would be so bad at them that they wouldn't work, because you can't train them safely using resistance. They give a false sense of security and mean you don't concentrate on the simple boring things that really do help.

[aikido_fudoshin]

In terms of Aikidos "effectiveness", I posted my feelings on this earlier. For those of you who do not train intensely in Aikido, then I suggest you take a proper kenshu class or change dojos, or change styles for that matter. You may be enlightened.

I realize that many of you are here to try and discredit Aikido. Too many of those who train in Aikido still have doubts about whether it actually works. Why do you train in it then? I train in Aikido because at some point it surpasses all other martial arts. If any of you do not think this then you do not understand the art thoroughly enough, have not trained hard enough, and have not put the proper commitment into it. Im not saying I'm the all knowing Aikidoka here, but these are things that help me focus. This is the way I have to feel about Aikido because my mind will thus be clouded with doubt and the battle will have already been lost.

[Kevin Wilbanks]

If you get attacked by several adults, then you are probably doomed, whether you try to grapple with them (you can do this standing), or anything else (striking, aikido, etc). I don't believe one person can win against many unless they are very lucky or have a weapon.

This is silly. I've seen one guy against four in a parking lot. He went ballistic on one and the other three started to change their minds and back away. As soon as the one guy was disengaged, they all decided to give it up. I'm sure plenty of people here can come up with similar stories of one against multiple attackers where the one did not die. Not every pack who jumps someone on the street is a team of trained assassins.
(i)You, who trains with a helpful and cooperative partner, probably slowly, and with no contact and stress.
Not all Aikido is trained like this. Proclaiming so in public shows that you have a penchant for making rather grand generalizations. How many dojos have you visited? How many advanced training sessions have you seen? Any?

In general, the argument about the finger jab is somewhat misplaced, and seems to be ignorant of Aikido principles. The Aikidoka would not attempt the finger jab while the opponent was bobbing and weaving vigorously. In Aikido, most of the opportunities to do damage with atemi are opened up by moving, turning, and/or parrying an attack, drawing the attacker into an off-balanced position, or into a temprorary mechanically compromising situation like the beginning of shihonage. When an opponent is staggering or momentarily unable to figure out how to move, opportunities for damaging strikes become wide open. This is not to say that this will always happen or everyone can make it work, but this is how it is supposed to work.

Also in general, I think that the purpose of preparing for likely 'street' self-defense situations is somewhat different from preparing for a showdown with world-class martial artists, and you seem to be making all kinds of assumptions and generalizations about Aikido based on the latter scenario. I know many people, including bouncers, police officers, and guys who lived in rough areas who have reported excellent 'effectiveness' in applying their Aikido to real situations, yet I'm sure none of them would last a minute in the cage with a Gracie brother.

[eric carpenter]

that questio is something ive asked my self too,and i suppose the awnser is find out about those techniques,train with those guys or read up on it.

ive just gotten an interesting book called grappling and ground work of karate,now karate is meant to be a standing punching kicking art but within the bunkai are these techniques,sometimes in karate i may use a aikido technique and it has i think improved my posture,in aikdo karate helps with atemi and kicks.

i hope i dont get into a confrontation with a grappler or jujitsu guy and maybe the lessons of aikido help to keep you level headed in these situations,i also hope martial arts people have more respect for people than to go around looking for fights,something i read was that ueshiba didnt develop aikido to be the most effective fighting system his idels were somewhat higher.

being picked on is not nice and from what ive been told a lot of people tend not to get into situations like that once theyve trained in a martial art,wether this is due to presence,being on guard,self confidence i dont know but it can only be a good thing.

[ian]

Hi Kevin,

I don't know whats up with that *Ron Marshall bloke - I get the impression he got his arse kicked and is quite bitter about it. I think on the whole its best to make opinions based on one's experience - and I would agree with your points. Also, from my own experience, most self-defence situations differ in both your own objective (survival, pacification, argument, mugging); and therefore the correct response, and in what happens (much of which I think can depend on luck or foresight!)

For me, aikido helps train in the foresight area.

Ian

(*I think he's waiting for us to convince him that aikido is better than judo. Now although Ueshiba was easily able to deal with the then World Judo champion when he was in his late 60s, and that many top judo guys trained under him, I always think of Judo as a partner to aikido in the martial arts; with (modern) judo retaining the groundwork and developing competition from jujutsu, whereas aikido retains more of the joint manipulations.

For some of the dealings I've had I don't think I would be able to do a judo style throw to the people because they far outclassed me in size and weight. However I wouldn't be one to dis' judo, and I have seen a very good performance in a self defence situation from a Judo guy (with multiple attackers).

Ian

[ronmar]

Not all Aikido is trained like this. Proclaiming so in public shows that you have a penchant for making rather grand generalizations. How many dojos have you visited? How many advanced training sessions have you seen? Any?

I've visited 3 dojos and have seen no advanced training sessions (unless this is the bit where all the dan grades stay behind for a while). I would love to see some good aikido demonstrated in an open way but it seems to be pretty secretive and doesn't mix too much with other martial arts where I live.
I know many people, including bouncers, police officers, and guys who lived in rough areas who have reported excellent 'effectiveness' in applying their Aikido to real situations, yet I'm sure none of them would last a minute in the cage with a Gracie brother.

Why not train GJJ then?
I train in Aikido because at some point it surpasses all other martial arts. If any of you do not think this then you do not understand the art thoroughly enough, have not trained hard enough, and have not put the proper commitment into it.

If floats then she's a witch and we'll burn her, if she sinks then she's innocent. Come off it, this sounds like something a brainwashed cult member might say. Do you not see that other people might not agree with you about the ultimate effectiveness of aikido and might just want to cross train in it out of interest or for fun?
I don't know whats up with that *Ron Marshall bloke - I get the impression he got his arse kicked and is quite bitter about it. I think on the whole its best to make opinions based on one's experience

I agree about basing opinions on experience. I'm not violent though and don't get into too many fights, in contrast to warriors like yourself.
I wouldn't be one to dis' judo
Eh, ok

[MattRice]

To get back on topic, KICKING. I think that the fundamentals of Aikido give us all the tools we need to deal with kicking attacks, even though we don't always practice against kicks. Remeber that Aikido is an art based on principals, not techniques. Kicks come in 2 varieties: direct and indirect, just like hand strikes. A yokomen is a hook punch is a roundhouse kick. The attack comes from the same direction, with a similar angle. The weapon is different, but I think our training gives us the means to enter through the attack the same as we would if it were a hand strike or a grab.

$.02

[paw]

Matt,
To get back on topic, KICKING.

Unless I'm mistaken the topic is wrestlers and grapplers.
I think that the fundamentals of Aikido give us all the tools we need to deal with kicking attacks, even though we don't always practice against kicks.

There's a huge difference between knowing and doing. To be perfectly frank, most students who have a good instructor "know" how to perform ikkyo after 10 or 15 minutes of instruction. How long does it take until a student can perform ikkyo properly with a cooperative partner? How about an uncooperative nidan with a chip on their shoulder? Knowing isn't the issue, performance is.

Regards,

Paul

[MattRice]

from the original post
...even that of a kickboxer...in our class we are not shown any techniques against a kick, (or atleast not yet).
don't know much about wrestling or grappling. As a karateka, I know something about kicking.

[paw]

Matt,

Be that as it may, I stand by my post. It's not knowledge, it's performance.

Try this experiment. Train yokomen shihonage with a newbie. Do this for a good, solid 1/2 hour. Then, without warning, throw a kick to their head.

I'll bet they freeze or flinch, because they've never had a kick thrown at their head before. In any case, explain to them that the kick has the same angle as yokomen, blah, blah, blah. Then go back to yokomen shihonage (don't throw another kick).

A month later, do the same thing. I bet they still freeze or flinch. Was incomplete knowledge at fault?

I spent a summer training muay thai. I was shown how to shield kicks first class. When I sparred I blocked all kicks because I knew how, right? Wrong. I ate kicks. I ate a lot of kicks. Not because I didn't know how to defend, but because I couldn't perform at the same level my partner was at.

Look at it this way. Most adults know how to ride a bike. Buy them the "best" bike in the world, give them the best equipment and clothing money can buy. Lance Armstrong will still kick their you-know-what riding a $200 bike in baggy shorts and a t-shirt.

If you don't train it, how can you do it?

Regards,

Paul

[MattRice]

Hi Paul

My point is that the priciples are there in Aikido to deal with kicking attacks. Whether or not those principles are practiced and applied in specific dojos by specific people is beyond the scope of what I can speak to here and seems to be another subject.

[aikido_fudoshin]

Do you not see that other people might not agree with you about the ultimate effectiveness of aikido and might just want to cross train in it out of interest or for fun?

Should someone whos only doing Aikido for fun or not seriously be one to discuss it with people who want to use it for self defense? If your not serious about Aikido as a self defense martial art, your probably going to use some other means to defend yourself therefore you can not have a proper opinion on its effectiveness in a self defense situation since your mind has already been set with another way.

[paw]

Matt,
My point is that the priciples are there in Aikido to deal with kicking attacks.

I understand your point.

Maybe the principles are there, but without application, what's the point?

Let me put it this way: Who would have better aikido weapon skills, a person who trains once a week with boken, jo and tanto, or a person that only trains empty hands? Yet the aikido principles are the same.

Since David asked about "self-defense" against wrestlers, kicks and so on, isn't slightly dishonest to say, "well, the principles are there" if we know that without applying those principles against wrestlers, kickboxers and so on David won't have the complete picture?

I submit that without applying aikido principles and aikido techniques to the specific attacks of the groups David originally mentioned (wrestler, grappler, kickboxer), he won't be as prepared as if he did.

Which is why I replied in post number 4:
Perhaps the simpliest thing to say is find a wrestler(freestyle, folkstyle or greco)/judo player/bjj'er/sambist, etc... and train with them until you reach the desired result.

Regards,

Paul

[aikido_fudoshin]

Gozo Shioda Sensei stated: "People who come to Aikido are often interested in the individual techniques--how can I apply second control, how can I make kotegaeshi more effective etc.--but the true purpose of training is to understand the techniques common principles.

Once you grasp these priciples you will naturally lose interest in the specific details of individual techniques. Then depending on the individual circumstance you will naturally adjust to each situation, and therefore you will have the ability to respond in which ever way is best for you ... you will come to a level where, because you have a grasp of the principles, your own body will move by itself according to these principles."

[ronmar]

I might start my own martial art. I'll tell all the eager young students that in principal fighting is about hurting your opponent and not getting hurt yourself. Then I'll get them to hit each other softly with giant cotton-wool balls to learn the principles of giving and receiving hits. I might then get them to do some dancing since one of the principles of fighting is to have good rhythm and movement. Then I'll enter them in a boxing match. They'll be ok if they remember the principles I taught them.
Should someone whos only doing Aikido for fun or not seriously be one to discuss it with people who want to use it for self defense?

I'm seriously into fun. You forgot what you originally said. It was something along the lines of:
Aikido [.......] surpasses all other martial arts. If any of you do not think this then you [.......] have not trained hard enough

Should people this biased about aikido be discussing it with people who want to do it out of a sense of curiosity?

[aikido_fudoshin]

If you didnt leave out the blanks I stated that "at some point" Aikido surpasses all other martial arts, this does not mean that all the others are ineffective. Other systems work very well, its just that Aikido is based on all the basic principles that make other systems effective and it focuses heavily on them. Most arts deal with balance, center line, hip power, etc. By using all these principles it becomes the most effective. The only "problem" with Aikido is that it takes a much longer time to reach a high level of performance than other martial arts. But where others cant continue, Aikido can always move further on.

Remeber, Aikido is a self defense art. You cant use it to attack someone. I guess I should have been more clear and said its the most effective self defense martial art. Yet at the same time I believe other martial arts would not have much of a chance if they decided to attack an Aikidoka. Because of maai, and proper kamae, they are left to make a committed attack which allows the defender to manipulate that strike in a way in which it can be controlled.

quote: "Then I'll get them to hit each other softly with giant cotton-wool balls to learn the principles of giving and receiving hits. I might then get them to do some dancing since one of the principles of fighting is to have good rhythm and movement. Then I'll enter them in a boxing match. They'll be ok if they remember the principles I taught them."

I think its time you changed dojos. You are obviously not learning the martial effectiveness of Aikido. I dont know if you've noticed but we practice the principles in a simulated defense situation and many dojos do not train in that certain "fluffy" manner. You cant learn Aikido on the dance floor, although im sure the principles could help you out with a few dance moves.

[Talon]

All I can say is when my sensei gets a hold of my arm after I initiate an attack, it removes my doubt of AikiDo's effectiveness. It feels like my arm will brake, my wrist will crack or my shoulder will pop out if I dont follow through the way he leads me. Its not like I have a choise, unless I want to get injured. If you dont train in that manner you will always have doubts. I sure have doubts too a specially when I read some of the posts on here, but all those doubts go away when My sensei askes me to be his ukey that particular class. I have some back ground in Karate and Wing Chun so I cant say that AIKIDO is the only martical art I've trained. But I surely can appreciate its effectiveness when I'm the uke....

Paul

[locknthrow]

hmmmmmm answering one of the original posts about how to defend against a shoot....look at what the Gracies themselves say in their street self defence books and videos. Alot of times it is simply placing both hands on the shoulders of tackler as he comes in. Kind of like pushing him away. Then giving him a knee or elbow strike to the spine. Keith Hackney did this to Royce himself in UFC 3 0r 4.

I got into BJJ a little and got to practice against a novice Aikidoka. I went to shoot in on him and he just did an instinctive tenkan motion (I think thats correct..he pickep up his rear leg and swiveled on the front) and I ended up eating dust. I think sometimes we get "conditioned" to believe whatever is in style in the MA media at the time. I didn't think he could escape me like that and he didn't know enough to "know" that he couldn't. So he just did what came natural and it worked. I recently have come back to traditional arts after doing a little research. One good example is www.rmcat.com. This guy does real self defence training with ppl yelling and cursing at you to get you all stressed up. Anyway you can read what he says there at the website. I thought it was interesting that when his students learn techs. they learn them by going very slow with exaggerated movement because in a real fight he says your adrenaline "dump" will shorten your moves and speed them up naturally without you trying to. Of course you have to do some practice in life like situations to get your adrenaline pumping and learn to calm it all down and not freeze up. hmmmmmmmm sounds like a martial art that I know of... Also this guy is very interested in.....Aikido.

[Lyle Bogin]

I think the real advantage wrestlers and grapplers have is that competition encourages them to be in incredible physical condition.

Everything else is just a matter of experience.

[Mike D.]

After a great deal of training, begin practicing with people from other arts and see for yourself.
Hi Lynn, have you tried sparring with people from other arts? Could you elaborate? Thanks.:square:

[Aristeia]

I train in Aikido because at some point it surpasses all other martial arts. If any of you do not think this then you do not understand the art thoroughly enough, have not trained hard enough, and have not put the proper commitment into it. .
Hi Bryan

Can you give us a quick run down of your experience of martial arts outside of Aikido? What else have you studied?

Thanks