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dontwanttousemyname
01-20-2011, 10:45 PM
Hey guys,

I need some advice. I am a woman training and i constantly come across these lower kyu men (usually just joined) who have absolutely NO idea as to what is going on. Of course they think they do AND not only do they complain about how I do the technique (i'm a second kyu), but they don't see what the instructor demonstrates AND they constantly try to tell me how to do the technique.

Today, we were SUPPOSED to do iriminage. These really large man, who is much stronger than I, did not follow properly (naturally didn't know how, because he just joined and is still learning) and complained about getting "clothes lined" and warned me not to do it again. I told him that he needed to learn how to follow. I'm not trying to hurt him, but he had to go with the movement. I asked him his level and told him mine. To which of course he said, so what...at that point, I was just about to walk away from him, when the sensei changed the technique and we had to change partners. I really wanted to drop him, but naturally that is not the proper thing to do.

It's really working my nerves. Do you guys have any advice on how to deal with these people?

guest1234567
01-21-2011, 02:04 AM
Hi,
One of the points our Sensei repeats every time is: there is no bad uke, you must take a look at yourself beeing tori, you must improve yourself.. And I think there is too much complaining, speaking about levels :( just keep training and one day you will become a good tori and that large man will become a good uke

Eva Antonia
01-21-2011, 02:23 AM
Hi,

in our dojo or when I train abroad I don't have often something to do with 5th kyu shihans (being a 3rd kyu shihan myself...:p ). But it happens that there are some newbies giving me advice about what I'm doing wrong...we had it just yesterday that a technique (kokyu) did't work with a 5th kyu and myself, and she tried to explain me what she thought I was doing wrong. So what? If it didn't work then obviously I must have done something wrong - because if the teacher repeats the same thing with her, it does work.

Sure there are issues like "uke doesn't attack frankly enough" or "uke tries to walk out the technique when he should continue to attack" etc. etc. But then tori should be able to react to that, shouldn't he?

And then there is another issue - all these strong men can maybe make use of their weight and momentum on techniques like yokomen uchhi irimi nage...but whenever it comes to wrist twisting exercises I find them much more vulnerable than women or frailer men. So no need to get angry at them for being uncooperative at irimi nage, just wait when they have to pair up for sankyo.

Best regards,

Eva

philipsmith
01-21-2011, 04:10 AM
Unfortunately a common problem almost always men wanting to tell women what to do.

Hopefully they will learn - if not they will generally leave

Hey guys,

. I really wanted to drop him, but naturally that is not the proper thing to do.

It's really working my nerves. Do you guys have any advice on how to deal with these people?

In this situation just drop him - generally that's a REALLY good lesson.

guest1234567
01-21-2011, 04:15 AM
Unfortunately a common problem almost always men wanting to tell women what to do.

Hopefully they will learn - if not they will generally leave

In this situation just drop him - generally that's a REALLY good lesson.

You are very sensitive about women, that is a great advice:)

Dazzler
01-21-2011, 04:28 AM
Unfortunately a common problem almost always men wanting to tell women what to do.
.

Ha ha...you haven't met my missus Phil...

Pauliina Lievonen
01-21-2011, 07:30 AM
I'm not trying to hurt him, but he had to go with the movement. I asked him his level and told him mine. To which of course he said, so what...Maybe you were being too careful? Do you think an effective iriminage would have broken him? And on the other hand, being clotheslined isn't pleasant. So it would have been reasonable for him to be a bit upset.

At nikyu I'd really expect that one can handle a beginner even if they are taking awkward ukemi. And if things go wrong have the sense to use it as an opportunity to improve ones technique.

So look back at what happened. Maybe you didn't have his balance from the start. Then that is a thing to work on. Or he tried to recover his balance in an unexpected direction. In that case you might have to do another technique.

A good way to handle this might have been to say: "I'm sorry, lets look at what happens there" or something along those lines. Then it becomes a cooperation of you two trying to figure out what is going on in the technique, instead of an argument about who is right and who's rank is higher.

Pauliina

Mary Eastland
01-21-2011, 09:36 AM
You could look at why it was working on your nerves. Is it an opportunity to work on patience or tolerance?
Mary

RED
01-21-2011, 09:49 AM
You are within your bounds to refuse to train with anyone who physically hurts you, or disrespects you.
However, I've dealt with the good old 5th kyu shihan syndrome. I know men who have the same complaint, so it breaches gender. But I understand how it is hard for a woman, being a woman. You have to pop your hips a little more and take ukemi faster. There are always be low ranked males waltzing in who will make you prove your rank to them. :/
I dealt with one male week 1 student(who no longer trains). I bowed to work with him, he refused me and said "I don't want to hit or throw a woman!" For a split second I was gonna accept his refusal, but then I got mad and told him "What makes you think you could pull off either in your first week?" I made him train.

In my region woman can wear hakama at an earlier stage than men. Men have to wait until black belt. I always feel bad for 1st kyu men at seminars, being told how to do something by 5th kyu shihan.

lbb
01-21-2011, 10:23 AM
It seems like the simplest and most effective thing to do, if a beginner is telling you to do something that doesn't meet with your understanding of how it is to be done, is to just say, "That's not how I understood it. Let's ask sensei to clarify," and then do just that.

Mark Freeman
01-21-2011, 11:10 AM
You could look at why it was working on your nerves. Is it an opportunity to work on patience or tolerance?
Mary

That's sound advice Mary.

I remember many times that I got frustrated with particular uke's, who either don't do what they are instructed to do, or make the exercise difficult to perform. It slowly dawned on me that I had more to learn from them, than with those who it was easy to practice with.

All practice is practice to work on ourselves, for our own benefit.

regards,

Mark

Janet Rosen
01-21-2011, 11:25 AM
First of all... DID you clothesline him? No matter how good or bad a newbie is at "following" (which to me smells of teaching collusion, much rather have them learn continuing attacking) one shouldn't be clotheslining folks. If so rather than argue who needs to learn or change, a simple "sorry, didn't mean to, let's keep training."
Or of course "onegaishimase!" to the instructor with appeal for help because WE are having problems on this technique.

kewms
01-21-2011, 01:23 PM
Unfortunately a common problem almost always men wanting to tell women what to do.

Hopefully they will learn - if not they will generally leave

In this situation just drop him - generally that's a REALLY good lesson.

It helps to have female yudansha in the dojo. Having someone 4'11" and 100 lbs put them *through* the mat has a way of teaching even the big guys a little respect....

On the other hand, being attacked by someone much bigger makes a lot of people tense up. Which will of course cause your technique to not work. Which leads to clotheslining and all sorts of other unpleasant behavior on the part of nage.

Remember, it's not uke's fault that he's big and tense. Being big is just genetics, and being tense is just because he's new. Think of it as an opportunity to learn to deal with that kind of energy.

Katherine

RED
01-21-2011, 02:13 PM
Remember, it's not uke's fault that he's big and tense. Being big is just genetics, and being tense is just because he's new. Think of it as an opportunity to learn to deal with that kind of energy.



That's a really good point.
Some of the bigger, stiffer guys have taught me the most about going around force, leading, and extension. The heavy weights also made me learn to appreciate the art of the facial (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0byR147UUjA )in randori.


For the OP's pleasure: http://www.aiki.rs/shihan_5kyu_e.htm

dontwanttousemyname
01-21-2011, 03:10 PM
Wow!

What a bunch of replys....cool!.

well, to answer a couple of good questions...To Janet, I did not clothesline him. But sometimes, iriminage is a clothesline if you don't follow. It could also be a smack in the nose/face by accident..And there are sensei's in the dojo who demonstrate the iriminage as a clothesline. you can clearly see the difference, though. My arm was arched and i hit him with the bend in my arm, not a forearm (which would be closer to a clothesline). I also move pretty slowly with while i first do a technique to get my movement together, and minimize the chance that i might injure someone with my awkwardness..

I am always careful to be respectful of those i try with, because i want them to keep training with me and give me respect. so i think to get respect, it's good to begin with giving it.

Another question and suggestion was to get the instructor involved. i did that with another technique, because he was going to "show" me what sensei did. So we called him over and he showed him the same thing i did....we continued to train.

I agree with one of the responses that there is too much talking during training. I came up with hardcore, old school instructors. we didn't do a lot of talking. AND if one of the larger (more muscular, not fat) men started intimidating the women, the other guys would step in. They also showed us women how to protect ourselves against these kind of people. But I don't want to go that route.

I don't teach people. I let the sensei do that, I like to train and figure it out as we go along. The movement can reveal itself through repetition and good instruction from a good sensei, of which i am not. BUT on the other hand, sometimes, your training partner has experience in other things and can make good suggestions that help.

AND yes, there is too much complaining during training too..I was quite surprised that this "tough" guy complained. But on the other hand, I thought that maybe in his mind, he was restraining himself from "retaliating"..

I'll see him again next week, when i'm on the mat and i'm not going to train with him. my training time is precious to me and it's generally a peaceful time for me. I want it to stay that way. There are people in the dojo who will retaliate if he hurts me, I don't want that, so I'm walking away for a while.

dontwanttousemyname
01-21-2011, 03:13 PM
Also remember, it's his attitude that was the issue, not his physique..

Shadowfax
01-21-2011, 03:33 PM
You are his senior. Therefore it is up to you to adjust down to his level and prevent him from hurting himself while he learns how to take proper ukemi. If this keeps happening ask your sensei to show you what you can do in order to improve matters. In the process sensei will most likely use him to demonstrate to you. If this guys ukemi needs adjusting your sensei will be the one best suited to tell him so.

If I have a guy like this below my rank I adjust down and do the above. Usually I find out it is indeed myself that requires an adjustment. Not my junior. If the guy is my rank or above I might cut him some slack at first but once we have worked together a while if the attitude continues I just throw him hard a few times. (or in the case of one fellow, just scare the (*&^@ out of him with a bokken) Or I get my sensei to work with them, again by asking for help with MY problem. They usually get the point.

Sometimes the best thing to do is just nod and smile and say thank you and just keep training.

There have been a few guys in my dojo that I at first wanted to avoid training with over such issues. Now those same ones are the ones I grab first because they challenge me and I learn more from them. Avoiding training with someone who is difficult is not a solution unless he poses a real threat to your safety.

RED
01-21-2011, 03:39 PM
AND yes, there is too much complaining during training too..I was quite surprised that this "tough" guy complained. But on the other hand, I thought that maybe in his mind, he was restraining himself from "retaliating"..

I'll see him again next week, when i'm on the mat and i'm not going to train with him. my training time is precious to me and it's generally a peaceful time for me. I want it to stay that way. There are people in the dojo who will retaliate if he hurts me, I don't want that, so I'm walking away for a while.

In my experience, the biggest thing hurt in this guys type is his ego.

kewms
01-21-2011, 04:25 PM
Also remember, it's his attitude that was the issue, not his physique..

The two go together. If you could throw him without difficulty, he wouldn't be inspired to tell you what you're doing "wrong:" he'd be too busy trying to avoid getting killed. If you could throw him without difficulty, you would probably also be less bothered by his remarks and could simply ignore him instead of posting here. (This is why you don't hear many complaints about small female 5th kyu shihans, even though they also exist.)

Katherine

dontwanttousemyname
01-21-2011, 06:39 PM
The two go together. If you could throw him without difficulty, he wouldn't be inspired to tell you what you're doing "wrong:" he'd be too busy trying to avoid getting killed. If you could throw him without difficulty, you would probably also be less bothered by his remarks and could simply ignore him instead of posting here. (This is why you don't hear many complaints about small female 5th kyu shihans, even though they also exist.)

Katherine

I did throw him, hence his complaint....lol. The first few times, he resisted and I let him go, and gave him some insight..his response: "I know, I know...". I said, Oh, okay..wonderful. Then he got thrown. Then when he tried to throw me, he couldn't do it the way he wanted to. The second time he tried to throw me, I let go to protect myself (katatetori). Then I Threw him.....

lol...

dontwanttousemyname
01-21-2011, 06:51 PM
You are within your bounds to refuse to train with anyone who physically hurts you, or disrespects you.
However, I've dealt with the good old 5th kyu shihan syndrome. I know men who have the same complaint, so it breaches gender. But I understand how it is hard for a woman, being a woman. You have to pop your hips a little more and take ukemi faster. There are always be low ranked males waltzing in who will make you prove your rank to them. :/
I dealt with one male week 1 student(who no longer trains). I bowed to work with him, he refused me and said "I don't want to hit or throw a woman!" For a split second I was gonna accept his refusal, but then I got mad and told him "What makes you think you could pull off either in your first week?" I made him train.

In my region woman can wear hakama at an earlier stage than men. Men have to wait until black belt. I always feel bad for 1st kyu men at seminars, being told how to do something by 5th kyu shihan.

Hi Maggie - it's frustrating because the time this man takes to talk nonsense, is less time we have to train. You are absolutely right about Ukemi. When I train with sempai, I never complain...They generally know what kind of falls I'm better at, or worse at. They don't try to hurt me and I respect their bodies as well. It's always the new students who come in rough and rugged and full of bravado...I did too, when I first started. I didn't know any better and I got offended if someone tried to tell me. It wasn't until I trained regularly and seriously that I began to understand what people tried to tell me. Thankfully, they were gracious to me and accepted my apologies when I presented them.

odudog
01-21-2011, 07:37 PM
If he complains about being clothes lined again, just tell him that his ukemi is still too slow for your are already moving at a snails pace. One of my previous instructors loved to use me for demonstrating the technique and I learned really quick to go down fast for his iriminage was a clothes line.

Mark Gibbons
01-21-2011, 08:22 PM
One way beginners solicit feedback is to describe what they see going on. Sometimes that is frequently interpreted as telling their partner how wrong the partner is.

I've always disliked techniques that hit uke in the throat. They usually just piss off the uke. If you want them to continue training with you hitting them in the throat should be reserved for much more senior people. If you really have someone's balance you don't need the clothesline so why do it. It's not the beginner's problem for not following. Just my opinion.

Mark

Love is Aikido
01-22-2011, 12:52 AM
Having the ability to work with others is a great skill to have at any dojo. Regardless, of race, creed, color, or sex.

We need people to train with, learn from, and teach us. We can't do Aikido alone, we need a training partner. So when we enter the dojo, we must come in with the right attitude that we will be harmonious, we will demonstrate love in order to help us grow both in our personal lives and in the dojo. Love, an important precept hailed by O'Sensei, who imparted it to us had his conflicts and over came them with love and not violence (later in his life). If we are true to ourselves, and seriously sincere about Aikido and the Founder, we will overcome any personality and or petty differences within ourselves and between our fellow deshi.

Love is what makes Aikido very special and appealing. We all must exercise that love as being the greatest Aikido waza of all. If O'Sensei's dream is to material it should start in the dojo overcoming personal conflicts like prejudices, sexism (male and female), and hate. If we don't carry-on in a loving harmonious manner , and instead insist on maintain conflict and personal competition then we are not doing Aikido. We have failed. We are truly 1st kyus no matter what color cloth is tied our waist.

What goes around here with all the conflict and strife who have O'Sensei turn in his grave. We practice Aikido, and it should show.

Basia Halliop
01-22-2011, 09:11 AM
I asked him his level and told him mine. To which of course he said, so what...

Personally I think saying this was a mistake. You're pretty much never going to gain another person's respect by telling them they should respect you...at best it makes no difference, but more often it lowers their respect for you.

IMO, use the opportunity to figure out how to deal with a large unwieldy opponent, don't worry so much about 'teaching' him how to do his part if he's not receptive or not appearing to find your advice helpful, when you get into that situation ask Sensei for help dealing with a large opponent who moves this way (if Sensei feels the need he'll show the uke something too), and otherwise just train with him, unless you feel unsafe or feel that he is going to get hurt. And especially, don't waste your time worrying whether your partner respects you or not.

dontwanttousemyname
01-22-2011, 10:30 AM
Personally I think saying this was a mistake. You're pretty much never going to gain another person's respect by telling them they should respect you...at best it makes no difference, but more often it lowers their respect for you.

IMO, use the opportunity to figure out how to deal with a large unwieldy opponent, don't worry so much about 'teaching' him how to do his part if he's not receptive or not appearing to find your advice helpful, when you get into that situation ask Sensei for help dealing with a large opponent who moves this way (if Sensei feels the need he'll show the uke something too), and otherwise just train with him, unless you feel unsafe or feel that he is going to get hurt. And especially, don't waste your time worrying whether your partner respects you or not.

At this point I've moved forward. What is interesting here is that many did not notice a thinly vailed threat spoken. I've decided not to train with him, until his attitude changes. I've discussed it with two sensei's in the dojo. Both believe that I handled it well and they will keep an eye on him for the next few weeks. Threats don't go well in our world. Threats are not appropriate.

Thank you to everyone who offered insight.

RED
01-22-2011, 11:34 AM
Hi Maggie - it's frustrating because the time this man takes to talk nonsense, is less time we have to train. You are absolutely right about Ukemi. When I train with sempai, I never complain...They generally know what kind of falls I'm better at, or worse at. They don't try to hurt me and I respect their bodies as well. It's always the new students who come in rough and rugged and full of bravado...I did too, when I first started. I didn't know any better and I got offended if someone tried to tell me. It wasn't until I trained regularly and seriously that I began to understand what people tried to tell me. Thankfully, they were gracious to me and accepted my apologies when I presented them.

Honestly, all the injuries I've withstood in Aikido was from low kyu ranks.

Eric in Denver
01-22-2011, 02:51 PM
it happens that there are some newbies giving me advice about what I'm doing wrong

Perhaps it is because my aikido sucks, but if even a newbie can point out something I am doing wrong, I figure it must be a pretty obvious mistake on my part. I have gotten some really good advice from people who are lower ranked than I but are much stronger regarding how to get a technique to work on them. I sometimes even work with them on the break between classes to see if I can figure out what I need to improve on. Sometimes they are wrong, but a lot of times they know why they didn't fall and are more than happy to share their "expertise."

YMMV

Eric

Basia Halliop
01-22-2011, 03:35 PM
Sometimes it's hard to tell just from a description of the words if there's a threat implied, as it's often something about how it's said as much as what is said... You're the one there, and if you get a sense that someone's threatening you or trying to intimidate you, in that case certainly I agree that talking to your sensei and avoiding the person for now sounds like a sensible thing to do...

danj
01-22-2011, 04:54 PM
Sometimes just taking ukemi for the duratiion s a good solution. You get some dedicated time to work on this aspect, and time lost to argy bargy is minimized. And maybe they pickup what ukemi and being uke is all about , or not. In any case u move on to next partner.

gates
01-23-2011, 12:44 AM
I think it is down to the instructor to make sure that everybody in the class understands the purpose of the grading system and maintains proper etiquette.

We have been told on occasions:

"Do it as your sempai shows you, even if you know it is wrong"
"Do not talk back to, or question your sempai"

I maintain this philosophy no matter which dojo I am in. I will always do the technique as the instructor showed first. If the sempai corrects me, even if it is clearly different than Sensei demonstrated then I follow their instruction. Sometimes Sensei will then come over and correct you, at which point you do not say "I knew that.." or some other smart arse comment", you just bow and say "Hai Sensei, Domo Arigato", these are lessons in patience, humility, and manors. Something that this 5th kyu sounds like he needs more than a good Iriminage.

The instructor needs to set/maintain the standard for the reigi (etiquette) in the Dojo.

Doc B
01-23-2011, 03:12 AM
I can't stress enough the importance of conflict resolution in predispositional relationships in domestic environments. It happens every day we must co-exit with others, strangers different from us. At work, the dojo, or school. Being brought together under volunteer circumstances we are required to function and interact together if we are to maintant any type of status or recognition . Because of our backgrounds and personal experiences, we set visable and invisible bountries with individuals we barely know or want to know, or understand. We don't lend to communicating effectively as it poses personal risk and volunerablity. Our personal backgrounds and experiences not disclosed in these enviroments (where we don't feel personally safe, where we don't feel secure) become powerful hanicaps to interpersonal skills and relationships. We don't move forward to resovle personal conflict, over-coming the interference of predispositional elements we harbor in dealing with people.

Both individuals have failed to communicate effectively to reduce conflict instead of inciting more intense conflict in a domestic environment. Changing the predispositional view of these two individuals, taking another angle on the current relationship and how to move it productively forward for the purpose of a positive and porductive training relationship, is vital to each individual. It is also vital to the other particiapants in the dojo and their dojo experience. The benefits of changing our predisposition are psychol in relation to the purpose of being a part of the environment, and the goal of being an erudite practitioner in the art of Aikido. No other goal or purpose should exist.

Not only do you live your ego at the door, but everything else.

dontwanttousemyname
01-23-2011, 04:33 AM
I can't stress enough the importance of conflict resolution in predispositional relationships in domestic environments. It happens every day we must co-exit with others, strangers different from us. At work, the dojo, or school. Being brought together under volunteer circumstances we are required to function and interact together if we are to maintant any type of status or recognition . Because of our backgrounds and personal experiences, we set visable and invisible bountries with individuals we barely know or want to know, or understand. We don't lend to communicating effectively as it poses personal risk and volunerablity. Our personal backgrounds and experiences not disclosed in these enviroments (where we don't feel personally safe, where we don't feel secure) become powerful hanicaps to interpersonal skills and relationships. We don't move forward to resovle personal conflict, over-coming the interference of predispositional elements we harbor in dealing with people.

Both individuals have failed to communicate effectively to reduce conflict instead of inciting more intense conflict in a domestic environment. Changing the predispositional view of these two individuals, taking another angle on the current relationship and how to move it productively forward for the purpose of a positive and porductive training relationship, is vital to each individual. It is also vital to the other particiapants in the dojo and their dojo experience. The benefits of changing our predisposition are psychol in relation to the purpose of being a part of the environment, and the goal of being an erudite practitioner in the art of Aikido. No other goal or purpose should exist.

Not only do you live your ego at the door, but everything else.

Again, I am very appreciative to read the thoughts of everyone.

When we are training, remember, come into the dojo a "whole human being", with whatever that means to a person. Just because we practice aikido doesn't mean that we stop being human. We bring our strengths and weakness with us and we train with that. Our mindset, or perspective dictate where we go with our training. Free will...It's easy to get "super spiritual" and esoteric about how we need to "seize" this or that opportunity. The simple fact is that we are humans and we do the things that humans do. Until the spirit and the mind is open to a new way of being, we remain in a constant struggle against our weakness and the weakness of others as it impedes on our respective environment.

It is easy to say "both" failed, etc. etc....The simple fact of the matter is that there is an order to the dojo that is there that can protect us and provide structure for learning. I went through my paces until I EARNED my rank.

I would say to all who look to go to another level, you don't lower yourself to someone else's nonsense. You maintain the standard and move forward. It's up to the student to do the necessary. Period. O'Sensei would not stop "communicate". He did the technique and that was that. The students either applied themselves, their attitudes and their spirits or they didn't.

I trained today, had great training. Just as I suspected 5th kyu instructor said some things, didn't do some things and go harshly corrected by the Aikido teacher. This is only the beginning. Because even then, he "knew" what he was doing and was not open to what was taught to him....

He is on one path and I am on another.

Again, I appreciate what others have to say. But, at the end of the day, this is a Martial Art...Due care should be taken and training should be serious and enlightening....And when someone steps out of line, there needs to be an immediate correction. Hopefully by the sensei, as some have stated here.

Basia Halliop
01-23-2011, 07:31 AM
"Do it as your sempai shows you, even if you know it is wrong"
"Do not talk back to, or question your sempai"

I would really hate to train in a dojo that made that an actual rule and where sempais felt they were justified in 'correcting' me for not giving them enough 'respect'.

Real respect is _earned_. If someone keeps giving good helpful advice, if I can see by their example that I want to be able to do what they can do, I will quickly learn to listen to their advice - and it won't be because I was told they're my senior so I have to.

gates
01-23-2011, 07:44 AM
I would really hate to train in a dojo that made that an actual rule and where sempais felt they were justified in 'correcting' me for not giving them enough 'respect'.

Real respect is _earned_. If someone keeps giving good advice, I will quickly learn to listen to their advice - and it won't be because I was told they're my senior so I have to.

Not sure but think you may have misunderstood the point. The respect should be there for your sempai from the get go. That way you don't get into a pickle, like 5th kyu's handing out advice to 2nd kyu's. This etiquette is inherent in the Japanese social hierarchical system. And although we are not Japanese nor are we attempting to become, it does lend itself to creating a well ordered and structured learning environment. Which is for the betterment of all deshi.

A sempai will not correct a student for not showing them respect, they don't have to, the instructor has taken care to ensure that everybody understands the correct etiquette from the get go.

Basia Halliop
01-23-2011, 07:50 AM
IMO, that's not respect you're talking about anymore, it's etiquette. Which is fine, I suppose, to say that this is just the way we do things, like bowing or something...

But you can't respect someone 'from the get-go'. You just don't know them well enough to respect or disrespect them... I suppose you can say you'll just follow the rules of precedence regardless.

But IMO, if the seniors are good technically and good teachers there isn't really any need.... It doesn't really take that long before new people start to respect them anyway.

Eric in Denver
01-23-2011, 09:26 AM
Not sure but think you may have misunderstood the point. The respect should be there for your sempai from the get go. That way you don't get into a pickle, like 5th kyu's handing out advice to 2nd kyu's. This etiquette is inherent in the Japanese social hierarchical system. And although we are not Japanese nor are we attempting to become, it does lend itself to creating a well ordered and structured learning environment. Which is for the betterment of all deshi.

A sempai will not correct a student for not showing them respect, they don't have to, the instructor has taken care to ensure that everybody understands the correct etiquette from the get go.

Once again, I see nothing wrong with a 5th kyu giving advice to a "sempai"? If you have this person pinned for ikkyo, and it is loose enough for their shoulder to turn out of it, wouldn't you like them to let you know you need to move their arm that extra half inch?

In my mind, that slows down progress for both the sempai and the kohai. It would be great if one could wait for the instructor to come over and offer pointers, but honestly, if you have 6 pairs practicing on the matt, that isn't going to happen very often.

I would also argue that by encouraging our kohai to critique us, it encourages them to think critically about the techniques and not drift into that "if I just do it 50,000 times, it will somehow become good."

That being said, if one feels there is abuse on the matt, then it is important to talk to that person about it off the matt, and if that isn't effective, have a conversation with the dojo-cho about it.

Tony Wagstaffe
01-23-2011, 10:17 AM
Ha ha...you haven't met my missus Phil...

Ha ha..... ditto:D

Doc B
01-23-2011, 10:54 AM
Again, I am very appreciative to read the thoughts of everyone.

Again, I appreciate what others have to say. But, at the end of the day, this is a Martial Art...Due care should be taken and training should be serious and enlightening....And when someone steps out of line, there needs to be an immediate correction. Hopefully by the sensei, as some have stated here.

I understand you feel your perspective is above reproach, and the onus falls on the other individual. Thus, you views and behavior is without fault; void of admonishment, or critique. It is the individual and their personal predisposition, and background creating experiences that formula individual expectations of behavior for the relationship and resulting individual behavior of both parties. Thereby dominating our perceptions of who is and isn't at fault. Resulting in the impedance to productive conflict resolution; applying to both parties involved.

Without objective circumspect of our own behavior and how it effects others and our environment, we can't objectively evaluate our own and that of others. Training can't be done alone to truly be benefitical. We must have mutual respect and tolerance of others, placing aside our judgements and expectations of others' and their behavior during training in the dojo.

We also must understand it is a Martial Art that lends itself to male stereotypes. As well as, both male and female low level controlled aggressive behavior. The cynosure of personal conflict comes from the same precipice found in most domestic relationships, the common power struggle. Amplified, not mentioned, gender expectations and prejudices.

When we understand that we are a whole human "beings" and how we effect other's and the environment we exist in, we can better navigate personal relationships towards a platform of an harmonious mutual training and understanding of ourselves and others.

Yes, both are at fault. I would like to point as well to the reponses given in the thread in the Anonymous forum titled, "is there another solution" where posters direct thoughtfully why both individuals are equally at fault and why. Very enlightening indeed.

RED
01-23-2011, 11:05 AM
I understand you feel your perspective is above reproach, and the onus falls on the other individual. Thus, you views and behavior is without fault; void of admonishment, or critique. It is the individual and their personal predisposition, and background creating experiences that formula individual expectations of behavior for the relationship and resulting individual behavior of both parties. Thereby dominating our perceptions of who is and isn't at fault. Resulting in the impedance to productive conflict resolution; applying to both parties involved.

Without objective circumspect of our own behavior and how it effects others and our environment, we can't objectively evaluate our own and that of others. Training can't be done alone to truly be benefitical. We must have mutual respect and tolerance of others, placing aside our judgements and expectations of others' and their behavior during training in the dojo.

We also must understand it is a Martial Art that lends itself to male stereotypes. As well as, both male and female low level controlled aggressive behavior. The cynosure of personal conflict comes from the same precipice found in most domestic relationships, the common power struggle. Amplified, not mentioned, gender expectations and prejudices.

When we understand that we are a whole human "beings" and how we effect other's and the environment we exist in, we can better navigate personal relationships towards a platform of an harmonious mutual training and understanding of ourselves and others.

Yes, both are at fault. I would like to point as well to the reponses given in the thread in the Anonymous forum titled, "is there another solution" where posters direct thoughtfully why both individuals are equally at fault and why. Very enlightening indeed.

I don't think the anonymous forum was created so you could rebut anonymous posters from hiding.

kewms
01-23-2011, 12:01 PM
Empty your cup. Each encounter is new. Your prior training is irrelevant. All that matters is how you handle yourself in the here and now.

You cannot control how others behave. You can only control how you respond.

(Not that I am blameless in this regard, of course.)

Katherine

Bartack
01-23-2011, 01:52 PM
i don't see "Doc B" doing anything different than other posters posting to forum, responding to an anonymous Tamora of a thread. I see "Doc B" giving the same advice as you have RED on other threads similar to this. It's all good. :)

RED
01-23-2011, 04:15 PM
i don't see "Doc B" doing anything different than other posters posting to forum, responding to an anonymous Tamora of a thread. I see "Doc B" giving the same advice as you have RED on other threads similar to this. It's all good. :)

Sure, except I stood behind my statements, and have never used an anonymous post to rebut anyone.
It is an issue of integrity of the anonymous thread privileges. I think it is an abuse to make yourself secret in order to disagree.

akiy
01-23-2011, 04:24 PM
Hi folks,

To address the issue of the "purpose" of the Anonymous forum, here is the post that i made a while back:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4325

Its pertinent section would be:
I would like to remind people that the Anonymous forum is not intended for people who don't want to register but want to post -- it is intended for "delicate" subject matters for which people want to keep their identities from being revealed. I encourage people to keep this in mind before posting on the Anonymous forum as that purpose is not what this forum was created for.So, unless what you are posting is "delicate" enough to warrant your needing to keep your identity anonymous, I would ask people to please register to post.

With that said, can we please turn the subject back to the topic itself?

Thank you,

-- Jun

gates
01-23-2011, 06:07 PM
Once again, I see nothing wrong with a 5th kyu giving advice to a "sempai"?

I think that there is subtle but important difference between offering advice and giving feedback.

Everybody should give feedback sempai-kohai, kohai-sempai, what ever it doesn't matter. But what does matter is the nature and tone in which it is done in. My girlfriend a non Aikidoka once said, if people want your advice then they will ask for it. In the original post, the 5th kyu is not giving feedback they were giving unsolicited advice.

However giving feedback is a slightly different story honest feedback both physically and verbal is, as has been pointed out very critical to development of all parties. It can be done in such as way as that it is non threatening, non patronizing, and not rude. The true intent will be easily by a higher dan grade. When I offer feedback to my sempai, which I often do, I will normally start out by saying something along the lines of, "just to let you know" ... then I would move my arm as you describe. Or If i don't know them I just ask outright, "can I offer you some feedback". I have never had a sempai get annoyed at me for offering to offer feedback.

I also apply a similar approach when giving advice to kohai, I dont just say "do this" "dont do that", (except with absolute beginners) instead something along the lines of "Can I suggest you try doing it this way", "you are going really well, but have thought about...".

You are absolutely right people want and need feedback, but being mindful of the way to go about it is quite a skill, and again another useful skill we can learn/improve on the mat and apply in our every day lives.

Making a clear distinction between advice and feedback and how we go about doing it is critical. We should always be mindful of the other person state of mind and how they are going to react to what, and how, we say what we say to them.

Janet Rosen
01-23-2011, 06:46 PM
I think that there is subtle but important difference between offering advice and giving feedback....
Making a clear distinction between advice and feedback and how we go about doing it is critical. We should always be mindful of the other person state of mind and how they are going to react to what, and how, we say what we say to them.

Darn good point!!!

Chuck Clark
01-24-2011, 01:52 PM
Darn good point!!!

Ditto!

dontwanttousemyname
01-24-2011, 03:54 PM
Big ups for staying on point and addressing a significant part of my initial post.

Also to Jun, for the reminder to stay on topic.

Eric in Denver
01-24-2011, 05:07 PM
I think that there is subtle but important difference between offering advice and giving feedback.



I don't want to drift too far from the OP, but could you talk more to the distinction between offering advice and giving feedback? In my mind, the two are the same.

Janet Rosen
01-24-2011, 05:10 PM
I don't want to drift too far from the OP, but could you talk more to the distinction between offering advice and giving feedback? In my mind, the two are the same.

Well why I agreed w/ him so strongly on this...
feedback is simply brief reporting on what I felt, murmuring to my partner (or him to me) "hey you had me but when you turned you disconnected" or "I'm tapping because of pain compliance - you don't have my center."
advice is delving into why it happened, how to correct it, etc.

kewms
01-24-2011, 06:04 PM
I don't want to drift too far from the OP, but could you talk more to the distinction between offering advice and giving feedback? In my mind, the two are the same.

Feedback is non-judgmental. A bicycle or an engine can give feedback. As Janet said, it's merely a report of what happened.

Advice includes suggested changes.

I generally have no problem with feedback from junior students. But specific advice is usually not helpful because they don't know what I'm working on and are usually wrong about what specifically caused whatever they felt.

Feedback: It felt like I was planted on my back foot there.
Advice: You need to pull me forward, off my back foot.

Katherine

Eric in Denver
01-24-2011, 06:38 PM
I guess I can see where folks are coming from, although I feel differently. If I am ever training with any of you, feel free to give me feedback, advice, or even tell me I suck, no matter what our rank differential is!:D

And to the original poster, I hope you were able to work your situation out. Good luck to you!

Janet Rosen
01-24-2011, 06:42 PM
To stay on this tangent for a moment: my husband is not an artist but has a good eye from years of looking at art. He is able to give me meaningful feedback when looking at a painting I'm in the middle of, such as : "there is something funny about that tree." Since he is not a painter at all, much less the equivalent of a junior student in painting, he is not able to give me any advice about how to fix it. In fact, very often the problem is NOT solved by doing anything to the tree, but making an adjustment to the sky right next to it.
That's why "how to" from a junior is often not helpful, but feedback on noticing how it looks or feels to them IS.

Keith Larman
01-24-2011, 07:01 PM
I really like this comparison...

Me too.

My daughter recently commented that a handle I was carving looked kinda odd to her. I just laughed because I hadn't actually finished it quite yet and she was in fact quite right. She didn't know what was wrong, but she's seen enough of my work and a *lot* of Japanese swords. So she was able to say that the tsuka-shitaji was off. Being a good girl she stopped there since she didn't know why it looked funny, just that it did.

That evening I taught a class and had a student explaining why he wasn't falling when I was showing something to third student. I laughed again. Because I wasn't trying to throw him. But he went from "Hmm, I'm not falling" to "This is what you need to do". Thank you, student, I knew full well what I needed to do, I just wasn't finishing the throw. So I finished the throw and asked if that was better... :)

I found the contrast interesting...

George S. Ledyard
01-24-2011, 07:21 PM
To stay on this tangent for a moment: my husband is not an artist but has a good eye from years of looking at art. He is able to give me meaningful feedback when looking at a painting I'm in the middle of, such as : "there is something funny about that tree." Since he is not a painter at all, much less the equivalent of a junior student in painting, he is not able to give me any advice about how to fix it. In fact, very often the problem is NOT solved by doing anything to the tree, but making an adjustment to the sky right next to it.
That's why "how to" from a junior is often not helpful, but feedback on noticing how it looks or feels to them IS.

I really like this comparison...

I think it's useful for folks to remember Einstein and his "point of view" examples when talking about relativity. If you really want to understand something it is important to remember that the point of view you are operating from may not give you the best picture. For instance an observer of someone doing a technique might think what he saw was fake. The uke might experience what was happening as an irresistible force and quite powerful while the nage might experience his actions as effortless and quite soft.

The issue of feedback is complex. That's because there are a number if things we are simultaneously trying to teach in Aikido and much of it is non-technical. So, while it might be somewhat presumptuous for the junior to give advice, it probably isn't bad training for the senior's ego to deal with the feeling of being dissed. I feel that it is appropriate for partners to be helpful, I certainly don't get to spend much time with any individual during a given class. But within that there are certain patterns that aren't helpful, like the boys, regardless of level, feeling compelled to offer advice to every woman they train with, regardless of rank. That's one I try to put the kibosh on. I had one young man, out of the best of intentions that drove everyone so crazy with this that I told him he was FORBIDDEN to say anything to his partner if he wasn't asked. It was like watching the "Italian trying to talk with his hands tied up"... total torture for him to not speak while he was training with his partner. On another occasion I had a young ex-marine who at 5th kyu felt compelled to offer advice to a visiting female instructor. Of course he didn't actually know she was an instructor and had her own dojo, she just looked like a tiny Japanese female who could surely use his help... I turned around just in time to see his feet towards the ceiling as he went down. The she giggled and thanked him for his help.

If folks can train together with a genuine desire for nothing more than for each of them to get better, without all the bs involved with who is superior, whose rank is higher etc, feedback can be important from the partner. On the connection work it is very helpful, even crucial to get feedback from the partner, at least until one is good enough to understand what is happening and why something may be hung up. But if can't be clean, folks should just shit up and let the teacher do it.

It's interesting... Systema doesn't have any ranking, although you tend to know who the folks are who trained the longest with Vlad. But there's no formal hierarchy and I have found that pretty much everyone gives everyone else feedback, even advice. It might be great or it might be not so great. You can decide. Folks don't get their knickers in a twist much over it. Anyway, it's certainly a bit different than what we normally experience and I find that I feel about it differently in their context than in ours which is also interesting, I think.

When I did some training with Dan H, everyone was giving feedback and even advice (if they thought they could help) to each other but it was so clearly out of a genuine desire for everyone to get what Dan was doing that no one seemed to mind. I had one partner tell me something that clearly didn't jibe with what Dan has just told me earlier, but it just didn't seem impertinent and I found myself thinking about why he thought it worked that way and what the difference really was between what he told me and what Dan had said. Maybe something we could strive for in Aikido.

dontwanttousemyname
01-24-2011, 08:10 PM
Janet - Fantastic summary and example, which is not really off topic. It addresses one of the main issues.

Keith - yours did too...

George - "dissed" is classic - smile.

Two points: First point - feedback is always welcome. You can't give technical advice on how to do something you have no expertise, or knowledge of. Thus some reason for a more "senior" a.k.a. "experienced" person to take issue with a brand new person stopping the practice to complain about something, when the brand new person is creating the problem.

Second point: Threats are not advice, some may call it feedback. But it's dangerous, not progressive and not in "harmony" with the type of cooperative training usually created in an Aikido dojo. (unless you are training with one of those instructors that break up the ukes to show how tough they are are how well their technique works in relation to "softer" instructors)

lbb
01-24-2011, 08:11 PM
I can see plenty of situations neither advice nor feedback is really warranted. I know that in my own case, I'm often aware when I've made a mistake, and I'm working on correcting it. Call me a slow learner, but there's often quite a noticeable gap between the time when I can detect a problem and when I can correct it. When I'm in that gap, I don't really need some self-appointed quality control manager telling me about it.

dontwanttousemyname
01-24-2011, 08:17 PM
i forgot to say you guys have started a great conversation.....

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif

Eric in Denver
01-24-2011, 09:56 PM
If folks can train together with a genuine desire for nothing more than for each of them to get better, without all the bs involved with who is superior, whose rank is higher etc, feedback can be important from the partner. On the connection work it is very helpful, even crucial to get feedback from the partner, at least until one is good enough to understand what is happening and why something may be hung up. But if can't be clean, folks should just shit up and let the teacher do it.

When I did some training with Dan H, everyone was giving feedback and even advice (if they thought they could help) to each other but it was so clearly out of a genuine desire for everyone to get what Dan was doing that no one seemed to mind. I had one partner tell me something that clearly didn't jibe with what Dan has just told me earlier, but it just didn't seem impertinent and I found myself thinking about why he thought it worked that way and what the difference really was between what he told me and what Dan had said. Maybe something we could strive for in Aikido.

I think these two paragraphs sum up the experience I want when I train.

kewms
01-25-2011, 02:01 AM
I can see plenty of situations neither advice nor feedback is really warranted. I know that in my own case, I'm often aware when I've made a mistake, and I'm working on correcting it. Call me a slow learner, but there's often quite a noticeable gap between the time when I can detect a problem and when I can correct it. When I'm in that gap, I don't really need some self-appointed quality control manager telling me about it.

In my case, I often find that the problem actually began well before it manifested itself in something that uke could feel. My timing was off, or an entry angle was off, and so the technique I intended was *never* going to work. But uke didn't realize it until the end, where I ran into his structure or whatever. So his advice, no matter how intended, simply isn't going to address the problem I was actually having and in fact distracts from whatever I'm trying to work through.

Katherine

gates
01-25-2011, 06:37 AM
the first time that you offer feedback and/or advice normally provides a clear indicator of whether it is appreciated or not, if not then don't offer any more.

JasonDawe
01-25-2011, 12:17 PM
Hey guys,

I need some advice. I am a woman training and i constantly come across these lower kyu men (usually just joined) who have absolutely NO idea as to what is going on. Of course they think they do AND not only do they complain about how I do the technique (i'm a second kyu), but they don't see what the instructor demonstrates AND they constantly try to tell me how to do the technique.

Today, we were SUPPOSED to do iriminage. These really large man, who is much stronger than I, did not follow properly (naturally didn't know how, because he just joined and is still learning) and complained about getting "clothes lined" and warned me not to do it again. I told him that he needed to learn how to follow. I'm not trying to hurt him, but he had to go with the movement. I asked him his level and told him mine. To which of course he said, so what...at that point, I was just about to walk away from him, when the sensei changed the technique and we had to change partners. I really wanted to drop him, but naturally that is not the proper thing to do.

It's really working my nerves. Do you guys have any advice on how to deal with these people?

As a 6'4, 270 lb man, I can see the issue personally. I am not the best Uke for straight technique, but what generally happens is that I cause some variation and those that train with me do learn to deal with my size.

My difference is that I have no pride when I step on the mat and give myself for training 100%. If something hurt me, I talk about it to see if it was something I did or they did to compensate.

At the end of the class, we're all friends and have learned lots.

Male Ego is easily injured and you either get through it or it becomes something that stops you in life.

Give the good old soul a dandy Nikkyo - I find shorter people really put that on well and there is no explanations for clotheslines and other things. You just have to learn to accept the technique and tap.

David Board
01-25-2011, 12:58 PM
I can see plenty of situations neither advice nor feedback is really warranted. I know that in my own case, I'm often aware when I've made a mistake, and I'm working on correcting it. Call me a slow learner, but there's often quite a noticeable gap between the time when I can detect a problem and when I can correct it. When I'm in that gap, I don't really need some self-appointed quality control manager telling me about it.

As a 5th kyu shihan (4th but what's the difference) to me it would seem appropriate at this point to give feedback on the feedback. As a 5th kyu I don't know what's up. Sensei told me to mention that you don't have my center. Communicate what you are doing. Most folks will shut-up if you let them know what you doing. I try.

Mark Mueller
01-25-2011, 02:36 PM
An interesting spin on this thread....When I attend seminars given by the Shihan of our organization a couple of his high ranking instructors (5th and 6th Dans) feel the need to interpret/re-teach what he is showing....versus just practicing. They talk so much during training little in the way of practicing is done.

George S. Ledyard
01-25-2011, 05:16 PM
An interesting spin on this thread....When I attend seminars given by the Shihan of our organization a couple of his high ranking instructors (5th and 6th Dans) feel the need to interpret/re-teach what he is showing....versus just practicing. They talk so much during training little in the way of practicing is done.

I often find myself in that position... I can sympathize with them, although from the sound of it, some restraint should be exercised. It's just so hard to sit there and watch folks mangle what Sensei just showed. I know it seems like they are reinterpreting, but often it's that we are trying to rephrase something Sensei did that clearly no one got.

I am not saying that this is always what is happening but folks do need to be aware that often, the Japanese teachers are apt to walk around and smile, which does not mean everything's ok... Somebody needs to say something and often the "big guy" doesn't. I see no function to sitting there watching everyone do the techniques exactly the same way they knew how to do when they walked in the door, especially when that has little to do with what Sensei just did.

kewms
01-25-2011, 05:25 PM
An interesting spin on this thread....When I attend seminars given by the Shihan of our organization a couple of his high ranking instructors (5th and 6th Dans) feel the need to interpret/re-teach what he is showing....versus just practicing. They talk so much during training little in the way of practicing is done.

I see your point, but I'm not so senior that I'm going to turn down a private lesson with a 6th dan, even in the context of a shihan's class. If he's talking out of turn I figure his teacher (the shihan) will let him know.

Katherine

Mark Mueller
01-25-2011, 05:49 PM
I was trying to make a couple of subtle points.....FIrst, that the verbose nature of some folks is not limited to their rank...Secondly, after practicing for 20 plus years I would rather feel what is happening and try to pick it up rather than have it explained. I will ask if confused.

Sometimes talking too much is a passive/aggressive thing about asserting control.

Walter Martindale
01-25-2011, 06:04 PM
I really like this comparison...

But if can't be clean, folks should just shit up and let the teacher do it.



um... typo?
Freudian Slip?:)
Cheers
W

Walter Martindale
01-25-2011, 06:13 PM
Feedback - "I'm not sure why but you're not taking my balance." or "Your hips are too high to throw me with koshinage."
Advice - "I think if you moved this way you'll be doing more what sensei showed us and you'll have me on my toes ready to fall." or "Lower your hips to throw me with koshinage."
Advice - "Sumimasen sensei, I'm not sure why my partner's having so much trouble throwing me." or "Sumimasen sensei, I'm finding it difficult to do this what do I need to change?"
(why not ask the sensei/shihan for help... I'm willing to bet that some of them get frustrated when they show stuff, and nobody gets it - or those who think they get it are doing something completely different from what the shihan demonstrated.)

dontwanttousemyname
01-25-2011, 11:29 PM
As a 6'4, 270 lb man, I can see the issue personally. I am not the best Uke for straight technique, but what generally happens is that I cause some variation and those that train with me do learn to deal with my size.

My difference is that I have no pride when I step on the mat and give myself for training 100%. If something hurt me, I talk about it to see if it was something I did or they did to compensate.

At the end of the class, we're all friends and have learned lots.

Male Ego is easily injured and you either get through it or it becomes something that stops you in life.

Give the good old soul a dandy Nikkyo - I find shorter people really put that on well and there is no explanations for clotheslines and other things. You just have to learn to accept the technique and tap.

LOL.....I would love to train with you. WE could learn something...nothing like a good ole Nikkyu to make the duo focus LOL...

George S. Ledyard
01-25-2011, 11:43 PM
um... typo?
Freudian Slip?:)
Cheers
W

I am, above all, a fabulous typist...

OwlMatt
01-28-2011, 01:25 PM
I was trying to make a couple of subtle points.....FIrst, that the verbose nature of some folks is not limited to their rank...Secondly, after practicing for 20 plus years I would rather feel what is happening and try to pick it up rather than have it explained. I will ask if confused.

Sometimes talking too much is a passive/aggressive thing about asserting control.

I know that in the ASU, where there are no rank restrictions on hakamas, the explainers sometimes embarass themselves. Sometimes you can't see your training partner's belt under the hakama.

I am told one of my training partners (a 4th kyu) once went to a seminar and repeatedly, patiently talked his partner through a technique he seemed to be having trouble with. It turned out his partner was a yudansha who was slowing down to work out a particular difference between his technique and the sensei's, and was quite offended.

ytlh
02-01-2011, 05:54 PM
I think that awkward, resistive newbies give a us glimpse of what kind of response aikido techniques will generate when used on someone who is not an aikidoka. (For example, have you ever noticed how common it is for beginners to twist out of shihonage if it is not well applied?) So I tend to consider this kind of situation a valuable, if frustrating, training opportunity.

kewms
02-01-2011, 11:15 PM
I think that awkward, resistive newbies give a us glimpse of what kind of response aikido techniques will generate when used on someone who is not an aikidoka. (For example, have you ever noticed how common it is for beginners to twist out of shihonage if it is not well applied?) So I tend to consider this kind of situation a valuable, if frustrating, training opportunity.

That's true to some extent. Unfortunately their attacks are usually so terrible that they don't really model a real world attacker, either.

Katherine

Janet Rosen
02-02-2011, 01:14 AM
That's true to some extent. Unfortunately their attacks are usually so terrible that they don't really model a real world attacker, either.

Katherine

You mean IRL attackers don't throw a punch or grab my wrist, then stand there rooted and grounded and static waiting and waiting and waiting for me to take their balance??? I'm...shocked :D

kewms
02-02-2011, 01:39 AM
You mean IRL attackers don't throw a punch or grab my wrist, then stand there rooted and grounded and static waiting and waiting and waiting for me to take their balance??? I'm...shocked :D

Well, I admit my real life experience is limited... so I may be mistaken... but I *think* someone trying to hit me IRL would probably actually hit *me,* rather than the air two feet away. And a grab would probably have at least as much intent as I use when playing with my cats. But, again, I'm just guessing here... :D

Katherine

OwlMatt
02-04-2011, 07:23 PM
I think that awkward, resistive newbies give a us glimpse of what kind of response aikido techniques will generate when used on someone who is not an aikidoka. (For example, have you ever noticed how common it is for beginners to twist out of shihonage if it is not well applied?) So I tend to consider this kind of situation a valuable, if frustrating, training opportunity.

I agree with this up to the point where they start anticipating a technique and trying to thwart it in a way they couldn't have done unless they saw it coming.

Mark Gibbons
02-04-2011, 08:30 PM
I agree with this up to the point where they start anticipating a technique and trying to thwart it in a way they couldn't have done unless they saw it coming.

Nage doesn't take advantage of knowing what the attack is going to be? Seems unlikely.

dontwanttousemyname
02-04-2011, 10:07 PM
You mean IRL attackers don't throw a punch or grab my wrist, then stand there rooted and grounded and static waiting and waiting and waiting for me to take their balance??? I'm...shocked :D

NOPE...instead, they punch very slowly at your obi. LOL..

heathererandolph
02-06-2011, 03:15 PM
Working with beginners is a challenge for any student. The best advice I have is try to see the positive. Beginners may be behaving more like someone on the street than a "trained Aikidoka." Observe carefully their reaction. Some beginners may try to challenge you, I think they just need to feel competent sometimes! They aren't really good at anything yet. Positive feedback! Try to be understanding of the difficulties they face. If you can somehow make this a pleasant experience for them then they may be more receptive. On the other hand I do find it odd that they are giving you advice! Hopefully people "play nice" in the dojo. Could be as you said some male/female role modeling going on. Just have "positive mind" and just nod and smile when they give you some advice and ignore it if it is not relevant. Again a lot of people give advice because it makes them feel competent. You could possibly try to work with those offenders when you have technique you feel it would be easier to work on with them. Then choose one of your "favorites" for the more advanced techniques. Leading is a more advanced topic than most beginners can handle so maybe do a version of the technique without it to start out. Try to just focus on bettering yourself versus locking horns with these guys and you'll come out ahead!

john.burn
02-07-2011, 05:01 AM
I was on a Summer Camp one year and was working with George (Ledyard) and he asked me why I was moving my head around when we were working on irminage and then pointed out why it was dangerous... At no stage did I take it as him criticising me, it led to us having a small chat about my background in Aikido and I know I felt as if someone had pointed out something to me that was kind of important for me to *not* do.

Of course... later on I was working with someone else who was doing a completely different technique to what Ikeda sensei had shown and when I suggested that I thought we were supposed to be doing ikkyo his response was 'What? are you asking me or telling me? Who do you think you are?' in a fairly aggressive way. He was a kyu grade and felt very offended for some reason or other, I just bowed out and said I thought it best he train with someone else.

DelicateGeniusWhisperer
02-08-2011, 08:35 AM
...his response was 'What? are you asking me or telling me? Who do you think you are?' in a fairly aggressive way. He was a kyu grade and felt very offended for some reason or other, I just bowed out and said I thought it best he train with someone else.

It always blows me away that someone can be such a delicate genius that they could pull such an attitude.

It's like they don't realize that *everything* is a learning opportunity.

How can the point be missed in such a horrendous way?

???

dontwanttousemyname
02-15-2011, 11:34 PM
It always blows me away that someone can be such a delicate genius that they could pull such an attitude.

It's like they don't realize that *everything* is a learning opportunity.

How can the point be missed in such a horrendous way?

???

Well, naturally i understand what he means. From a kyu perspective, how can I "teach" what I don't know. sometimes it's better to go with the flow (as long as you don't get physically abused). It's just proper protocol. Junior students should not instruct senior students. If the senior student is incorrect, leave it alone. Either another senior will correct it, or not.

Yes every opportunity is a learning opportunity. But there is entirely too much talking and touchy feely stuff going on, while training. Let folks train. what the junior student should focus on is taking ukemi. Ukemi is critical and will save your behind many times, when a technique is done correctly AND incorrectly.

Also, not everyone wants immediate feedback. It's a bit intrusive to think that someone wants an opinion that wasn't asked for. Particularly from a junior student, regardless as to whether the junior is right or wrong. I used to train with someone who felt it was his place to interpose his opinion at every opportunity. It was disruptive and annoying...to many of us in the class. Sometimes, being "right" is not the point. Not intruding on another's training experience is a priority, I would think.

Let the senior students and sensei's/instructors do the teaching. the most a junior should offer, is what is felt...

AND let's keep in mind that too much talking, leads to disagreements and loads of mis-understandings.

IMHO...

lbb
02-16-2011, 03:35 PM
Yes every opportunity is a learning opportunity.

Oh, indeed. It's just not necessarily an opportunity to learn aikido.

Walter Martindale
02-16-2011, 10:02 PM
I think I've said this before somewhere... If I am having trouble with a tech, or my partner is having trouble, if I'm fairly conversant with the movement normally, I'll see if I can sort out the problem. Otherwise it's a really short time before I ask sensei/shihan where I'm going wrong.
cheers
Walter