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Tony Wagstaffe
01-23-2011, 04:26 PM
That's the problem...... he who teaches must also have the goods as you keep telling me......:D

Take care fella's...... I'll keep doing my bullshit and you carry on with yours......:D

Seems to be a lot of bullshit around here.....

Anyone got a shovel? Need it for my carrots .........:D

What's coming next I wonder...?

David Orange
01-23-2011, 04:31 PM
Yes, he has studied pressure points with George Dillman in the early 90's.

Kyusho Aiki Jutsu is a system which lends from Kyusho Jitsu, Jack Hogan Karate and Ryabko/Vasiliev-Systema. You may know Evan Pantazi, Jim Corn or Gary Rooks too.

So he has created an "aiki-jutsu" system from various kinds of karate related to George Dillman?

Is there any actual aiki-jutsu in his entire background?

Thanks.

David

David Orange
01-23-2011, 04:33 PM
Come on impress me.......

Now we are getting some truth here, as I thought bullshit...

Lets see it in the cage up against a real fighter..... until then bullshit......

Really, Tony?

So you are a cage fighter, yourself?

Because if you're not....then what you're teaching is....what?

Good luck with all that, Tony.

David

graham christian
01-23-2011, 04:34 PM
Simon, which parts of these videos would you say are demonstrating Internal Power and what are the underlying principles (e.g. conveying the solidity of the ground into a hit, unbalancing someone on contact, etc.)?

Hi Budd, this caught my attention. Do you believe these clips to be real and understand the different principles being applied? I don't need you to explain I just want to know if you do.

Tony Wagstaffe
01-23-2011, 04:37 PM
So he has created an "aiki-jutsu" system from various kinds of karate related to George Dillman?

Is there any actual aiki-jutsu in his entire background?

Thanks.

David

According to Dillman he taught karate to Muhammed Ali and Bruce Lee
so I wouldn't set to much credence to people like that...:rolleyes:

He might be behind you and knock you up, sorry, knock you over with his "ki"

Aikirk
01-23-2011, 04:40 PM
Simon, I'm not going to endorse what you've shown to be indicative of internal strength as I train it or understand it - I'd also disagree with your remarks regarding cage fighters. But at this point I'm not feeling like a debate on any of this as I think the baseline for discussion has skewed into unrelated and irrelevant tangents.

I'm actually very curious about your (Ark I guess) way of training internal strength as I see things which are done very similar and things which are done very differently. The focus on achieving great power in punches and the way both Ark and KAJ fokus on breathing are definite similarities.

The difference I think, is where we focus on energy manipulation to achieve inner strentgh you guys focus on rewiring the body. I don't think we are achieving excactly the same thing, but I think we can agree, that none of these are external arts?

I stand by what I said about cage fighting. Not that it is in any way useless, but in my opinion that way of training has got it's limitations like everything else.

Yes, the discussion might have strayed from it's original topic, but Systema and KAJ are just as much internal arts as what Ark does, and I thought a bit of info about this type internal power might be interesting to you guys.

DH
01-23-2011, 04:41 PM
Simon, I'm not going to endorse what you've shown to be indicative of internal strength as I train it or understand it - I'd also disagree with your remarks regarding cage fighters. But at this point I'm not feeling like a debate on any of this as I think the baseline for discussion has skewed into unrelated and irrelevant tangents.
I started just skimming myself a while back.
As I stated coming in to this I can't fault Tony and Henry (or his son, Rik) as it was and is exactly what I thought many years ago. "If I can't use it to fight...I don't wanna know."
Where I disagree with Tony and Henry is you can..I have..
I just can't help but to respect their view. The only suggestion I have made to Tony and Henry is to be more discerning in what they are reading. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water. I did for years and missed things that are perfect for generating power in MA and MMA..

This Dillman related stuff has been debunked over and over for years...:rolleyes:...good grief!!
I don't know anyone who has "debunked" what we are discussing, how can you, it's about practical and down to earth hard work. In fact it seems all the naysayers who keep showing up decide to train it.

That experienced people like Tony and Henry have turned a blind to it and those discussing their experiences, is no surprise to me at all.
Oh well.
Dan
.

Aikirk
01-23-2011, 04:44 PM
So he has created an "aiki-jutsu" system from various kinds of karate related to George Dillman?

Is there any actual aiki-jutsu in his entire background?

Thanks.

David

Could you point out what you mean by "Aiki-Jutsu"?

Aiki Jutsu is used to describe many different systems. Do you mean Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu?

Tony Wagstaffe
01-23-2011, 04:49 PM
Really, Tony?

So you are a cage fighter, yourself?

Because if you're not....then what you're teaching is....what?

Good luck with all that, Tony.

David

Don't be silly David, I was around before cage fighting and would have been to old for it by the time it came in, but I have boxed in and out of the ring..... aikido works to.....;)

I just happen to know that all the bullshit I have seen so far won't work against a very hard crack to the back of the head or otherwise. Boxers condition there bodies/torso to take punishment, or haven't you noticed? When you get a good crack, whack to the head it will knock you down, It's called a KO, but not if you have the deadly "ki" :D

Demetrio Cereijo
01-23-2011, 04:54 PM
Tony and Henry - which parts are bullshit? Or are you saying that unless someone who says they do internal strength fights in a cage match, you aren't going to believe it?
It could help.

Aikirk
01-23-2011, 05:05 PM
I started just skimming myself a while back.
As I stated coming in to this I can't fault Tony and Henry (or his son, Rik) as it was and is exactly what I thought many years ago. "If I can't use it to fight...I don't wanna know."
Where I disagree with Tony and Henry is you can..I have..
I just can't help but to respect their view. The only suggestion I have made to Tony and Henry is to be more discerning in what they are reading. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water. I did for years and missed things that are perfect for generating power in MA and MMA..

This Dillman related stuff has been debunked over and over for years...:rolleyes:...good grief!!
I don't know anyone who has "debunked" what we are discussing, how can you, it's about practical and down to earth hard work. In fact it seems all the naysayers who keep showing up decide to train it.

That experienced people like Tony and Henry have turned a blind to it and those discussing their experiences, is no surprise to me at all.
Oh well.
Dan
.

It's funny how people are only focusing on what they cannot seem to figure out how works, and not being interested in why it seem to work anyway. Clearly there must be a limit to collusive ukes in this world.

I do not doubt that your kind of IP/IS works very well, and I'm not trying to degrade it at all. But when you tell people to have an open mind about your kind of inner strength practice, why are you suddenly rejecting this way of attaining inner strength?

I know this is not at as down to earth as your practice might be, but our seminars are open to everyone.

And may I add that Ryabko/Vasiliev Systema share energy techniques and pressure point activation with KAJ. Yes they do energy "tricks" too. So the legacy of Dillman lives on in Systema who teaches the Russian special forces. I don't think any special forces unit would pick a martial which does not work and is not practical.

Have I overinterpreted your post, I apologize in advance.

David Orange
01-23-2011, 05:15 PM
What's coming next I wonder...?

Well, more of you, I'm sure.

But I'm just wondering, if you think the IS training is such BS, why you keep coming onto these threads and claiming you already do it?

"That's bullshit: I do all that!"

It reminds me of the fellow who goes for a job interview and the employer says, "Very good, then. I'll pay you what you're worth."

And the applicant says, "I'm making more than that now!"

You post a weight-loss ad under your own name alongside a video of yourself clearly way over healthy weight....so I'm thinking that both things you're hawking are baloney.

http://www.fatbustingmadesimple.co.uk/about-me

You cite your age as a reason for not getting into the heavy stuff anymore, and I figured that was cool. A man in his mid sixties really shouldn't be pushing it too hard. But then I read that you're 57 years old! That's two years over Dan Harden, the BS Internal Power guy, who takes on ring fighters around the world and they pay him to teach them.

You clearly have a real need for respect from everyone with your crossed arms and evil eye (http://www.fatbustingmadesimple.co.uk/about-me) but you show no respect and your response to all the posted videos seems more like someone who's had his ego bruised.

Seems like you've been being dishonest with yourself, Tony and that the truth has bloody hurt you. But calling honest people BS is no way to handle it. It's just more self-deception.

Maybe in addition to the "Non-Aikido Martial Traditions" forum, we need to add one: "Gave Up a Long Time Ago, But Still Want Credit Traditions". Or maybe just "Wanker Traditions."

Best to you, bud.

David

Tony Wagstaffe
01-23-2011, 05:17 PM
It could help.

Training internal strength comes from training the external, the two go together. You stand in a horse stance it develops the legs. So does squats slowly ( I do 50 everyday before I go to work..... big deal!!) Sanchin do in goju ryu karate is a form of training isometrics...

Doing ab crunches and holding them at the apex while having a medicine ball bounced upon it creates a strong stomach wall.... need I fart on?.....

DH
01-23-2011, 05:20 PM
It's funny how people are only focusing on what they cannot seem to figure out how works, and not being interested in why it seem to work anyway. Clearly there must be a limit to collusive ukes in this world.

I do not doubt that your kind of IP/IS works very well, and I'm not trying to degrade it at all. But when you tell people to have an open mind about your kind of inner strength practice, why are you suddenly rejecting this way of attaining inner strength?

I know this is not at as down to earth as your practice might be, but our seminars are open to everyone.

And may I add that Ryabko/Vasiliev Systema share energy techniques and pressure point activation with KAJ. Yes they do energy "tricks" too. So the legacy of Dillman lives on in Systema who teaches the Russian special forces. I don't think any special forces unit would pick a martial which does not work and is not practical.

Have I overinterpreted your post, I apologize in advance.
I know too many people, grapplers, weapons guys who have stepped up and ...well..nothing happened,..hell, I know a small woman who stumped some of these guys, she was told it didn't work on her because it was that time of the month. I have my own experiences with certain teachers that when faced with someone who actually can use a knife and faces them with one...well...shit DOES happen..but it wasn't quite what they thought was going ...to... happen.
I have nothing good to say, and I don't want to anger you, I am deeply immersed in the practical realities of Murphy's law, so I suggest we drop it okay?
This stuff has no place in this discussion what-so-ever.
Dan

.

Demetrio Cereijo
01-23-2011, 05:25 PM
need I fart on?.....
More?

Upyu
01-23-2011, 05:30 PM
Training internal strength comes from training the external, the two go together. You stand in a horse stance it develops the legs. So does squats slowly ( I do 50 everyday before I go to work..... big deal!!) Sanchin do in goju ryu karate is a form of training isometrics...

Doing ab crunches and holding them at the apex while having a medicine ball bounced upon it creates a strong stomach wall.... need I fart on?.....

Lol, if it were that simple...

Seriously, if horse stance were just for training the legs them Asians must've been preeeetty dumb;)

David Orange
01-23-2011, 05:31 PM
Could you point out what you mean by "Aiki-Jutsu"?

Aiki Jutsu is used to describe many different systems. Do you mean Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu?

I mean "any" aiki-jutsu or aiki-jujutsu (from traditional sources [in Japan]).

I know that George Dillman is a karate man and I did buy a whole bunch of his pressure-point tapes a long time ago as I have a good bit of karate background, myself. I do respect a lot of what he teaches about pressure points but a lot of his ki manipulation stuff has been soundly debunked (to put it kindly) and I've never heard of his having any association with any kind of aiki-jutsu.

And what I see on the clips you posted bears only passing resemblance to any Japanese aiki-jutsu I've ever seen.

So maybe my question should be "What's the source of the aiki-jutsu designation in your system?"

Thanks.

David

DH
01-23-2011, 05:32 PM
Training internal strength comes from training the external, the two go together. You stand in a horse stance it develops the legs. So does squats slowly ( I do 50 everyday before I go to work..... big deal!!) Sanchin do in goju ryu karate is a form of training isometrics...

Doing ab crunches and holding them at the apex while having a medicine ball bounced upon it creates a strong stomach wall.... need I fart on?.....
While I understand what you are shooting for Tony..thats not really true.
Here is a different example:
Body builders lift and condition themselves. they do so by isolating body parts for development.
Power lifters use whole body power in a different way.
Is it any wonder that they do NOT look the same, nor do they feel and act the same. one case in point; the power lifters are routinely the more powerful.

We are conditioning as well. but not in either of the cases sited above. and we "feel' a certain way as well.
I can't get behind you on squats and mabu leading to IP either. I have yet to meet people who could figure that out and show it on their own.
Sanchin? I know or knew maybe a hundred guys who trained Sanchin; not one could do what I do. Several teachers of Karate now practice it ...shall we say differently...than they ever have before.
YOu are on the right track considering it a type of conditioning, but there is a significant mental/physical component that is unavoidable as well, and yes it can be a bit heady. However, all of it is immersed in very practical and useful things.
"Woo woo" is just as much a swear to me as it is to you! I want none of it.
Good luck in your pursuits

Aikirk
01-23-2011, 05:40 PM
I know too many people, grapplers, weapons guys who have stepped up and ...well..nothing happened,..hell, I know a small woman who stumped some of these guys, she was told it didn't work on her because it was that time of the month. I have my own experiences with certain teachers that when faced with someone who actually can use a knife and faces them with one...well...shit DOES happen..but it wasn't quite what they thought was going ...to... happen.
I have nothing good to say, and I don't want to anger you, I am deeply immersed in the practical realities of Murphy's law, so I suggest we drop it okay?
This stuff has no place in this discussion what-so-ever.
Dan

.

Well I'm not prepared to make you say that this stuff has no place in this discussion. You said you only skimmed much of this thread, and if you are not considering this being internal power, then how on earth do Vasiliev and Kauhanen get so much force in a one inch punch which looks like nothing? And how come my instructor will take a full speed hits to the stomach with camera tripods and punches from MMA fighters without moving an inch?

Surely there are people who don't know what they are doing, but it is not them I'm talking about.

And don't worry, it is not that easy to anger me. But as you so often have said: If you don't believe it, come and see what the fuss is all about!

Tony Wagstaffe
01-23-2011, 05:43 PM
Well, more of you, I'm sure.

But I'm just wondering, if you think the IS training is such BS, why you keep coming onto these threads and claiming you already do it?

"That's bullshit: I do all that!"

It reminds me of the fellow who goes for a job interview and the employer says, "Very good, then. I'll pay you what you're worth."

And the applicant says, "I'm making more than that now!"

You post a weight-loss ad under your own name alongside a video of yourself clearly way over healthy weight....so I'm thinking that both things you're hawking are baloney.

http://www.fatbustingmadesimple.co.uk/about-me

You cite your age as a reason for not getting into the heavy stuff anymore, and I figured that was cool. A man in his mid sixties really shouldn't be pushing it too hard. But then I read that you're 57 years old! That's two years over Dan Harden, the BS Internal Power guy, who takes on ring fighters around the world and they pay him to teach them.

You clearly have a real need for respect from everyone with your crossed arms and evil eye (http://www.fatbustingmadesimple.co.uk/about-me) but you show no respect and your response to all the posted videos seems more like someone who's had his ego bruised.

Seems like you've been being dishonest with yourself, Tony and that the truth has bloody hurt you. But calling honest people BS is no way to handle it. It's just more self-deception.

Maybe in addition to the "Non-Aikido Martial Traditions" forum, we need to add one: "Gave Up a Long Time Ago, But Still Want Credit Traditions". Or maybe just "Wanker Traditions."

Best to you, bud.

David
Yes David, so I don't train anymore?, sorry wrong!! I don't fight anymore if I can prevent it.... As yes I do not want to anymore.
But I am realistic and tell the truth. Fat busting is what is, simply that, a balanced diet with regular exercise that can be done anywhere, any place, any time. Do you have a problem with that?
There are a lot of people out there that need this kind of help and it is a simple way to get started without costing an arm or leg. Not everyone wants to do MA or go ballistic doing cardio, Its better to do intensive for short periods......
By the way...... when I did that video I was suffering quite badly with a severe back problem which I had a year previous to, it's caused from constant pounding over the years, as I was still doing ukemi for my students up until then. I had to lay off any hard training which doesn't help, as I'm prone to weight gain if I don't exercise ........Read the material........ You can be assured that it has all gone..... Why? 'Cause am back into training.....:rolleyes:
I'm not one of these guys who struts around the dojo and not showing or doing it myself. It sets a bad example...... I don't see many taking ukemi at my age, do you?
I could mention a few, but they know who they are......

Tony Wagstaffe
01-23-2011, 05:47 PM
While I understand what you are shooting for Tony..thats not really true.
Here is a different example:
Body builders lift and condition themselves. they do so by isolating body parts for development.
Power lifters use whole body power in a different way.
Is it any wonder that they do NOT look the same, nor do they feel and act the same. one case in point; the power lifters are routinely the more powerful.

We are conditioning as well. but not in either of the cases sited above. and we "feel' a certain way as well.
I can't get behind you on squats and mabu leading to IP either. I have yet to meet people who could figure that out and show it on their own.
Sanchin? I know or knew maybe a hundred guys who trained Sanchin; not one could do what I do. Several teachers of Karate now practice it ...shall we say differently...than they ever have before.
YOu are on the right track considering it a type of conditioning, but there is a significant mental/physical component that is unavoidable as well, and yes it can be a bit heady. However, all of it is immersed in very practical and useful things.
"Woo woo" is just as much a swear to me as it is to you! I want none of it.
Good luck in your pursuits

Put up a video of your training and lets see Dan..... why all the secrecy?

David Orange
01-23-2011, 05:50 PM
I know a small woman who stumped some of these guys, she was told it didn't work on her because it was that time of the month.

Well, that sounds ridiculous, but it could also have been that she had her tongue in the wrong position in her mouth. Or, possibly, she had one of her big toes off the floor. And each time they tried to affect her, she changed which toe was off the floor.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JM_qg5d1YGI&feature=related

Truly, the human mind is an amazing thing.
:D

David

David Orange
01-23-2011, 05:51 PM
Put up a video of your training and lets see Dan..... why all the secrecy?

Dan is coming to the UK. And so is Mike Sigman.

Live is far better than tape, bud.

David

Aikirk
01-23-2011, 05:56 PM
I mean "any" aiki-jutsu or aiki-jujutsu (from traditional sources [in Japan]).

I know that George Dillman is a karate man and I did buy a whole bunch of his pressure-point tapes a long time ago as I have a good bit of karate background, myself. I do respect a lot of what he teaches about pressure points but a lot of his ki manipulation stuff has been soundly debunked (to put it kindly) and I've never heard of his having any association with any kind of aiki-jutsu.

And what I see on the clips you posted bears only passing resemblance to any Japanese aiki-jutsu I've ever seen.

So maybe my question should be "What's the source of the aiki-jutsu designation in your system?"

Thanks.

David

Well I dont think they care much about the name(If they did, they would have chosen something more easy to pronounce I guess ;) ).

As kyusho is being done from a chinese medicine point of view, and we are incorporating Systema and Karate in this KAJ, I cannot say it has got any deep roots in japanese Aiki-jutsu.

But Aiki-jutsu is not a trademark, and i think Kyusho Aiki Jutsu sums our school up quite well. Kyusho (Pressure points/one second fight), Aiki (The joining of ki) and Jutsu (Technique). It is simply a way of saying that we do, because our art is pieced together by so many different other arts.

I don't think that Dillman's techniques have ever been busted, but it has been proved that one is able to counter and resist these things if they whish and know they are coming.

Everyone in Kyusho knows this and Dillmann even tells about it openly, but people are only interested in his failure. As I said earlier, this technique is much easier to do if the person is out of balance to start with, and do not know what is coming. Just like Aikido where techniques are much easier to apply if uke is unbalanced and do not know the technique.

Tony Wagstaffe
01-23-2011, 06:01 PM
Well, more of you, I'm sure.

But I'm just wondering, if you think the IS training is such BS, why you keep coming onto these threads and claiming you already do it?

"That's bullshit: I do all that!"

It reminds me of the fellow who goes for a job interview and the employer says, "Very good, then. I'll pay you what you're worth."

And the applicant says, "I'm making more than that now!"

You post a weight-loss ad under your own name alongside a video of yourself clearly way over healthy weight....so I'm thinking that both things you're hawking are baloney.

http://www.fatbustingmadesimple.co.uk/about-me

You cite your age as a reason for not getting into the heavy stuff anymore, and I figured that was cool. A man in his mid sixties really shouldn't be pushing it too hard. But then I read that you're 57 years old! That's two years over Dan Harden, the BS Internal Power guy, who takes on ring fighters around the world and they pay him to teach them.

You clearly have a real need for respect from everyone with your crossed arms and evil eye (http://www.fatbustingmadesimple.co.uk/about-me) but you show no respect and your response to all the posted videos seems more like someone who's had his ego bruised.

Seems like you've been being dishonest with yourself, Tony and that the truth has bloody hurt you. But calling honest people BS is no way to handle it. It's just more self-deception.

Maybe in addition to the "Non-Aikido Martial Traditions" forum, we need to add one: "Gave Up a Long Time Ago, But Still Want Credit Traditions". Or maybe just "Wanker Traditions."

Best to you, bud.

David

Oh forgot to mention David that I gave up wanking some time ago... it affects your "ki"

Mike Sigman
01-23-2011, 06:07 PM
You think that's a difference that only you can see? You challenge people to get out and test and then challenge the credibility of those that have.
You talk to people as if they cannot tell the difference between external and internal or be able to separate IP from waza particularly those in an art that routinely separates aiki from waza, all while telling people on the internet, IHTBF, obviously because IT CAN BE FELT AS DIFFERENT
All while turning around and telling those same people that even then they can't tell the difference between what they felt and what is real IP. Making a tacit argument that YOU and well...God only knows who else.....can.
all while the ICMA themselves talk endlessly about the internal and external being combined in harmony and proved through a blending of internally driven external testing,
All while you challenge all information and offer nothing but baby steps in return, while alluding to you knowing more, while publicly stating you will not offer it as people need to "figure it out for themselves"
All while stating the Japanese arts had no IP then changing your own mind and stating there was more there than you thought
All while certain of us lowly Japanese artists have now met and crossed hands with grand masters of those internal arts...who suck just a bad as many of the teachers being discussed here. And met other grand masters who had genuine power but who could not simply overcome us dumb Japanese artists.
All while you admitted that certain ICMA grandmaster level guys handed you your ass...through...uhm...IP...in use.
We are all on a journey and learning, killing the messengers and killing the message is a disservice to the debate. I keep hoping for better.
DanSorry, couldn't make heads or tails or what you're trying to say. Can you give me some quotes where I'm "challenging" people, etc.? I'm not sure what "baby steps" are, but I know that there are some people that use the buzzwords in their workshops that come from the QiJin forum, so I guess the "baby-steps" are probably good enough for them to impress the rubes with. ;)

In terms of: "All while stating the Japanese arts had no IP then changing your own mind and stating there was more there than you thought.".... Can you give me a quote? I've never said any such thing, as I recall it. I've known that Tohei used internal strength since the 1970's and have said so, as archived numerous times. So, quote please?

In terms of people "handing my a$$", could I get another quote please? I seldom talk much about myself, so such a quote should be easy to find. Heck, I don't even talk about other people or fixate on them, so it should be doubly easy to find. :)

Regards,

Mike Sigman

David Orange
01-23-2011, 06:14 PM
Well I dont think they care much about the name(If they did, they would have chosen something more easy to pronounce I guess ;) ).

Well, why call it something it's not--especially if they don't care much about the name? I can see calling it any kind of karate--because it has roots in karate. But why call it aiki-jutsu if it has no roots in Japanese aiki-jutsu? It doesn't add to the credibility and lends an air of fraudulence to the art. But also, to call a thing something that it's not...isn't that just basic dishonesty? And if that's true, what else is dishonest about it?

But Aiki-jutsu is not a trademark, and i think Kyusho Aiki Jutsu sums our school up quite well. Kyusho (Pressure points/one second fight), Aiki (The joining of ki) and Jutsu (Technique). It is simply a way of saying that we do, because our art is pieced together by so many different other arts.

But, apparently, aiki-jutsu is not one of those arts. So why not call it some kind of karate? Just because aiki-jutsu is not a trademark, doesn't mean it's not the name of a specific real art. And it's highly misleading to call a karate art "aiki-jutsu".

I don't think that Dillman's techniques have ever been busted, but it has been proved that one is able to counter and resist these things if they whish and know they are coming.

Even by untrained people? Why show something that doesn't even work on a martially-untrained scientist of 125 pounds with his eyes closed?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JM_qg5d1YGI

Everyone in Kyusho knows this and Dillmann even tells about it openly, but people are only interested in his failure. As I said earlier, this technique is much easier to do if the person is out of balance to start with, and do not know what is coming. Just like Aikido where techniques are much easier to apply if uke is unbalanced and do not know the technique.

Sorry, but he should have stuck with the pressure points and kept calling it karate. It's misrepresntation to call it aiki-jutsu or aiki-jujutsu.

Best to you.

David

DH
01-23-2011, 06:23 PM
Put up a video of your training and lets see Dan..... why all the secrecy?
No secrecy man, I not only get out and about regularly, I follow up with people. I've now met and trained with hundreds of MA. I hate video. I hope you can see that I am not interested in B.S. either, and hold you no ill will for doubting someone you have never met. Like yourself, some things in the MA are getting a bit old. Like having to stand in a room full of strangers and prove things about a subject most are unfamiliar with and do so...over and over!!

All the best
Dan

Tony Wagstaffe
01-23-2011, 06:40 PM
No secrecy man, I not only get out and about regularly, I follow up with people. I've now met and trained with hundreds of MA. I hate video. I hope you can see that I am not interested in B.S. either, and hold you no ill will for doubting someone you have never met. Like yourself, some things in the MA are getting a bit old. Like having to stand in a room full of strangers and prove things about a subject most are unfamiliar with and do so...over and over!!

All the best
Dan

Dan, even so, put it up and lets see. Let us be the judge of that, if I think it's worthwhile looking into....... I'll come.... promise I won't knock it, just want to see before I make any commitment, I already know the feel, just want to see....
If not........... not interested....... sorry...
Best to you to....

thisisnotreal
01-23-2011, 07:00 PM
okay? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8wxwqtRgSk)

Tony Wagstaffe
01-23-2011, 07:10 PM
okay? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8wxwqtRgSk)

ha ha ha love it!!!:D
Not far off the truth though.....

Aikirk
01-24-2011, 03:11 AM
Well, why call it something it's not--especially if they don't care much about the name? I can see calling it any kind of karate--because it has roots in karate. But why call it aiki-jutsu if it has no roots in Japanese aiki-jutsu? It doesn't add to the credibility and lends an air of fraudulence to the art. But also, to call a thing something that it's not...isn't that just basic dishonesty? And if that's true, what else is dishonest about it?

But, apparently, aiki-jutsu is not one of those arts. So why not call it some kind of karate? Just because aiki-jutsu is not a trademark, doesn't mean it's not the name of a specific real art. And it's highly misleading to call a karate art "aiki-jutsu".

Even by untrained people? Why show something that doesn't even work on a martially-untrained scientist of 125 pounds with his eyes closed?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JM_qg5d1YGI

Sorry, but he should have stuck with the pressure points and kept calling it karate. It's misrepresntation to call it aiki-jutsu or aiki-jujutsu.

Best to you.

David

Well it's definitely not karate, that would be very misleading to call it that, although we do use some kenpo/karate kata. What Hogan or Dillman do might be more karate like. I don't know why you think it loses it's credibility? Though I can understand your confused about the name, I was confused myself to start with.

It has some roots in karate, but we are working with the blending of energy, the avoidance of attack, entering, side stepping and generally soft techniques. There are no bone-breaking techniques like traditional karate. Therefore I still think the aiki-term is a good match.

The art derives from Kyusho Jitsu which is only pressure points techniques. Kauhanen put this intosystem, and thought "Aiki" would fit well keeping in mind the way we train, and still showing some form of linage to Kyusho Jitsu.

I think Dillman had something to prove, and when ego steps in there is always a possibility of failing. To be honest, i think most people can block this just by wanting to prove it wrong. It is no golden gun.

Lorel Latorilla
01-24-2011, 03:17 AM
LOL.

I dont know why you guys deal with such people. He's pretty much on my ignore now.

Aikirk
01-24-2011, 03:17 AM
okay? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8wxwqtRgSk)

Haha, I like that! :D

David Orange
01-24-2011, 08:34 AM
Well it's definitely not karate, that would be very misleading to call it that, although we do use some kenpo/karate kata.

But it's also not aiki-jutsu, unless you can show me that somewhere down that line he has some roots and real connections with some kind of aiki-jutsu. If it's misleading to call it karate, from which it was developed, it's fifty times more misleading to call it aiki-jutsu, from which it was not developed and with which it has no connection. And in fact, it does look very much like karate to me. My karate teacher in Japan used very similar things, but I never saw any aiki-jutsu that looked much like what you're doing.

What Hogan or Dillman do might be more karate like. I don't know why you think it loses it's credibility? Though I can understand your confused about the name, I was confused myself to start with.

No, I'm not confused about the name. What if you made a wine out of canned grape juice from the grocery store and you called it cabernet sauvignon? Or what if one of your good friends started wearing an Army uniform and medals for valor in combat when he was never in the military? Would you want to be associated with that?

Aiki-jutsu has a well-earned name and reputation based on solid technical and internal methods. To make something up from karate and call it aiki-jutsu is literally to steal the name and reputation. And for what reason? If you know a thing is not something, but you sell it by that name, it's simply dishonest at the very best.

It has some roots in karate, but we are working with the blending of energy, the avoidance of attack, entering, side stepping and generally soft techniques. There are no bone-breaking techniques like traditional karate. Therefore I still think the aiki-term is a good match.

Then you wouldn't mind if you bought a diamond for your girlfriend and then learned that it was actually cubic zirconium?

This kind of thing was more effective when you couldn't find anyone within five-thousand miles who had even heard of aiki-jutsu or had ever been to Japan. But half the people on this thread have lived in Japan and have undergone extensive training with legitimate practitioners of aikido and/or aiki-jujutsu. And you're presenting karate to these people and calling it aiki. And you should know that people associated with Dillman are well-known for patching together bits of this and that and calling it by names of well-established arts with which they have no relation. What if I go about selling fake diamonds and telling people my name is Kirk Sorenson?

Doesn't that make clear sense to you?

The art derives from Kyusho Jitsu which is only pressure points techniques. Kauhanen put this intosystem, and thought "Aiki" would fit well keeping in mind the way we train, and still showing some form of linage to Kyusho Jitsu.

But aiki is not something you just make up or that you can appropriate just because you found it written on a piece of paper in the trash. You can do that with people who have no real connection to the roots of these arts, but you should simply expect a lot of grief when you go around people who know--which is, the people here on this forum.

I think Dillman had something to prove, and when ego steps in there is always a possibility of failing. To be honest, i think most people can block this just by wanting to prove it wrong. It is no golden gun.

Yes? So....doesn't that make you feel that there's something wrong in being associated with that? I mean, you have the choice to buy one of two cars: a Lamborghini or a thing patched together from bits of Volkswagens and Ford Tauruses and Yugos with a Lamborghini ornament on the hood. Sure, the patchwork car is cheaper...but wouldn't you be embarrassed to show it to your friends and say "It's a Lamborghini?"

You're not that far from Japan. Why not just go on over and get the real thing? Or twenty years from now, you'll realize that you've invested your life in a lie.

Best of luck.

David

Aikirk
01-24-2011, 09:06 AM
But it's also not aiki-jutsu, unless you can show me that somewhere down that line he has some roots and real connections with some kind of aiki-jutsu. If it's misleading to call it karate, from which it was developed, it's fifty times more misleading to call it aiki-jutsu, from which it was not developed and with which it has no connection. And in fact, it does look very much like karate to me. My karate teacher in Japan used very similar things, but I never saw any aiki-jutsu that looked much like what you're doing.

No, I'm not confused about the name. What if you made a wine out of canned grape juice from the grocery store and you called it cabernet sauvignon? Or what if one of your good friends started wearing an Army uniform and medals for valor in combat when he was never in the military? Would you want to be associated with that?

Aiki-jutsu has a well-earned name and reputation based on solid technical and internal methods. To make something up from karate and call it aiki-jutsu is literally to steal the name and reputation. And for what reason? If you know a thing is not something, but you sell it by that name, it's simply dishonest at the very best.

Then you wouldn't mind if you bought a diamond for your girlfriend and then learned that it was actually cubic zirconium?

This kind of thing was more effective when you couldn't find anyone within five-thousand miles who had even heard of aiki-jutsu or had ever been to Japan. But half the people on this thread have lived in Japan and have undergone extensive training with legitimate practitioners of aikido and/or aiki-jujutsu. And you're presenting karate to these people and calling it aiki. And you should know that people associated with Dillman are well-known for patching together bits of this and that and calling it by names of well-established arts with which they have no relation. What if I go about selling fake diamonds and telling people my name is Kirk Sorenson?

Doesn't that make clear sense to you?

But aiki is not something you just make up or that you can appropriate just because you found it written on a piece of paper in the trash. You can do that with people who have no real connection to the roots of these arts, but you should simply expect a lot of grief when you go around people who know--which is, the people here on this forum.

Yes? So....doesn't that make you feel that there's something wrong in being associated with that? I mean, you have the choice to buy one of two cars: a Lamborghini or a thing patched together from bits of Volkswagens and Ford Tauruses and Yugos with a Lamborghini ornament on the hood. Sure, the patchwork car is cheaper...but wouldn't you be embarrassed to show it to your friends and say "It's a Lamborghini?"

You're not that far from Japan. Why not just go on over and get the real thing? Or twenty years from now, you'll realize that you've invested your life in a lie.

Best of luck.

David

I do understand where you are going, but I have to disagree on the importance of the name. What is most important? Wheather or not KAJ has a linage which stretches back to japanese aiki-jutsu, or what we do? Now read this I found on wikipedia. It is excactly what we do:

"Aiki is a Japanese martial arts principle or tactic in which the defender blends (without clashing) with the attacker, then goes on to dominate the assailant through the application of internal strength or Ki energy to effect techniques. Blending with an attacker's movements allows the Aiki practitioner to control the actions of the attacker with minimal effort. One applies aiki by understanding the rhythm and intent of the attacker to find the optimal position and timing to apply a counter-technique."

Furthermore it says:

"It is found as a concept in arts as diverse as karate and judo. Aiki arts are generally classed as soft martial arts. The aiki arts place great emphasis on the use of qi energy. Techniques accomplished with aiki are subtle and require little mechanical force."

Now it says that is found as concept in karate, so now we propably have a linage? No, it's not pure aiki-jutsu as practiced in japan, but it shure as hell follows the principles in every detail.

I would rather say that this an older Skoda which performs like a Lamborghini. Sort of looks fake, but it's easily the real deal. These seminars are open to everyone, en sceptics who have come here have often been proved wrong.

Real martial arts look fake, but if you practiced with Vasiliev or Kauhanen, you would come to a whole other conclusion.

But you'r right I could just go to Japan. I only live 5440 miles from Tokyo. :cool:

David Orange
01-24-2011, 09:58 AM
I do understand where you are going, but I have to disagree on the importance of the name. What is most important? Wheather or not KAJ has a linage which stretches back to japanese aiki-jutsu, or what we do?

What matters is the truth. Aiki is not something you can make up or snatch out of the air. It is directly associated with a line of people who established the method. By calling your art aiki-jutsu, you are claiming that your teachings come from those people. You might as well call yourselves the CIA. It's just as true as the claim that you do aiki. Wikipedia is at best a very general reference. If you want to claim aiki based on wikipedia's definition, you could also fit ballet into that same wide frame. So why not call your system ballet?

Now it says that is found as concept in karate, so now we propably have a linage?

Not "probably" by any means. By wikipedia's definition you could "possibly" have some lineage. But then, you "could" have some lineage straight to the King of Denmark. In either case, you should have a line of documents from teacher to teacher, showing that the specific teachings were passed down to your teacher. If you have that, I'll be impressed. Otherwise, what you're doing is stealing a name and a reputation and your teacher is selling counterfeit goods as the real thing.

No, it's not pure aiki-jutsu as practiced in japan, but it shure as hell follows the principles in every detail.

Kirk, the "principles" are not to be found "in every detail" on Wikipedia. The fact that you have to get the definition from such a source just shows that there is no real information on aiki available from your teacher. The "every detail" of aiki is contained in the teachings of the legitimate schools of aiki-jujutsu--not in a patched-together system of karate.

I would rather say that this an older Skoda which performs like a Lamborghini. Sort of looks fake, but it's easily the real deal.

But it doesn't perform like a Lamborghini and what you've shown on your clips does not perform like aiki-jujutsu. And therefore it not only looks fake: it is fake. Real aiki works on people who are bigger, stronger, faster, balanced and ready to fight. And it does not include or attempt "no-touch knockouts" or any such foolishness. All that stuff is good for is to get someone hurt (and make a lot of money for the teacher based on the ignorance of people who accept false claims).

These seminars are open to everyone, en sceptics who have come here have often been proved wrong.

Well, you can't prove me wrong if you don't have a lineage to aiki-jujutsu. You can show me that the pressure point techniques are effective, but you can spray paint them gold and they will still not be aiki-jujutsu. If someone tells you a lie and you repeat it, it doesn't make you a liar--just mislead. But when you learn the truth and continue to proclaim the lie....that's bad.

Real martial arts look fake, but if you practiced with Vasiliev or Kauhanen, you would come to a whole other conclusion.

As I said, I have experience with kyusho jutsu. I don't doubt that that's what your teacher is doing, even though it comes through the very dubious line of George Dillman's group (you should read some of the comments of people involved with Seiyu Oyata). But no amount of "saying so" makes your art aiki-jujutsu. and Vailiev does not teach aiki-jujutsu, so referencing him, you might as well tell me your teacher learned aiki from Franz Kafka.

But you'r right I could just go to Japan. I only live 5440 miles from Tokyo. :cool:

I live about 10,000 miles from Tokyo and I went, stayed five years and trained closely with one of the original uchi-deshi of Morihei Ueshiba, whose teaching scroll was in Daito Ryu Aiki-jujutsu. People seriously invovled in traditional arts go and, if they live in another country, they go once a year or even more often. It just depends on whether you want to wear fake gold or if you want to keep real gold in a secret place.

The choice is entirely yours but it does reflect your values and your character.

Best wishes.

David

Aikirk
01-24-2011, 10:38 AM
What matters is the truth. Aiki is not something you can make up or snatch out of the air. It is directly associated with a line of people who established the method. By calling your art aiki-jutsu, you are claiming that your teachings come from those people. You might as well call yourselves the CIA. It's just as true as the claim that you do aiki. Wikipedia is at best a very general reference. If you want to claim aiki based on wikipedia's definition, you could also fit ballet into that same wide frame. So why not call your system ballet?

Not "probably" by any means. By wikipedia's definition you could "possibly" have some lineage. But then, you "could" have some lineage straight to the King of Denmark. In either case, you should have a line of documents from teacher to teacher, showing that the specific teachings were passed down to your teacher. If you have that, I'll be impressed. Otherwise, what you're doing is stealing a name and a reputation and your teacher is selling counterfeit goods as the real thing.

Kirk, the "principles" are not to be found "in every detail" on Wikipedia. The fact that you have to get the definition from such a source just shows that there is no real information on aiki available from your teacher. The "every detail" of aiki is contained in the teachings of the legitimate schools of aiki-jujutsu--not in a patched-together system of karate.

But it doesn't perform like a Lamborghini and what you've shown on your clips does not perform like aiki-jujutsu. And therefore it not only looks fake: it is fake. Real aiki works on people who are bigger, stronger, faster, balanced and ready to fight. And it does not include or attempt "no-touch knockouts" or any such foolishness. All that stuff is good for is to get someone hurt (and make a lot of money for the teacher based on the ignorance of people who accept false claims).

Well, you can't prove me wrong if you don't have a lineage to aiki-jujutsu. You can show me that the pressure point techniques are effective, but you can spray paint them gold and they will still not be aiki-jujutsu. If someone tells you a lie and you repeat it, it doesn't make you a liar--just mislead. But when you learn the truth and continue to proclaim the lie....that's bad.

As I said, I have experience with kyusho jutsu. I don't doubt that that's what your teacher is doing, even though it comes through the very dubious line of George Dillman's group (you should read some of the comments of people involved with Seiyu Oyata). But no amount of "saying so" makes your art aiki-jujutsu. and Vailiev does not teach aiki-jujutsu, so referencing him, you might as well tell me your teacher learned aiki from Franz Kafka.

I live about 10,000 miles from Tokyo and I went, stayed five years and trained closely with one of the original uchi-deshi of Morihei Ueshiba, whose teaching scroll was in Daito Ryu Aiki-jujutsu. People seriously invovled in traditional arts go and, if they live in another country, they go once a year or even more often. It just depends on whether you want to wear fake gold or if you want to keep real gold in a secret place.

The choice is entirely yours but it does reflect your values and your character.

Best wishes.

David

What you say about the name is okay. I can accept it, but I do think you've got way to many martial arts scammers over there, because some of this you'r telling is sounding rather paranoid to me.

If you care a lot about the name "Aiki", and that it must have a certain linage, so be it. I don't, I care about what the art is all about and I found that this art is indeed powerful and useful. It is indeed very effecient, believe me. The scrolls don't have Aiki, people have aiki.

I've seen plenty of Daito Ryu videos with masters doing no touch throws. Does this mean that the linage of Daito Ryu is now dubious or fake?

Also this won't make anyone in KAJ rich like you might be implying, as memberships costs merely 100 kroner/18 dollar a month.

And my value and charachter are allright as they are.

David Orange
01-24-2011, 11:22 AM
What you say about the name is okay. I can accept it, but I do think you've got way to many martial arts scammers over there, because some of this you'r telling is sounding rather paranoid to me.

Clearly "over here" is not the only place where there is plenty of martial arts scamming and self-delusion.

David

Lorel Latorilla
01-24-2011, 11:58 AM
Besides religion, martial arts is the only field where people try verrrrrrrrrrry hard to protect their cherished beliefs.

Mark Gibbons
01-24-2011, 12:36 PM
Besides religion, martial arts is the only field where people try verrrrrrrrrrry hard to protect their cherished beliefs.

I don't think that's a true statement. Politics, poker, fishing, cooking, to name a very few more categories with fanatical support.

Mark

Howard Popkin
01-24-2011, 01:14 PM
Why'd you have to go and bring fishing into this ???

You're killing me:eek: :confused: :( :freaky: :dead: :crazy: :uch:
:D :D :D

phitruong
01-24-2011, 01:25 PM
Why'd you have to go and bring fishing into this ???

You're killing me:eek: :confused: :( :freaky: :dead: :crazy: :uch:
:D :D :D

howie, you know that the only good kind of fish are the fish sticks in the frozen food section, right? heh heh heh

Mark Gibbons
01-24-2011, 01:28 PM
Why'd you have to go and bring fishing into this ???

You're killing me

I actually had you in mind when I wrote that. :)

Mark

Aikirk
01-24-2011, 02:05 PM
Clearly "over here" is not the only place where there is plenty of martial arts scamming and self-delusion.

David

I just ereased a long ramble. We could discuss this forever and still not reaching agreement. If you (or anyone else) have genuine questions aobut this, I'd be happy to answer as well as I can.

David, you are welcome to visit KAJ if you ever get to Denmark, but I won't think any less about you, if you decline. :)

David Orange
01-24-2011, 02:13 PM
...We could discuss this forever and still not reaching agreement. If you (or anyone else) have genuine questions aobut this, I'd be happy to answer as well as I can.

No, you've answered everything quite well enough. If you don't have respect for other people's heritage and reputations, nothing I say will change that. Your group and those you associate with have proven again the old adage that "You can't shame the shameless."

By claiming to teach aiki-jujutsu, your group attempts to associate itself with a long line of people who have discovered and developed certain principles of nature and pass them on whole and complete, with honesty and integrity. Your group has shown a fundamental dishonesty and lack of integrity that needs no further questioning.

...David, you are welcome to visit KAJ if you ever get to Denmark, but I won't think any less about you, if you decline. :)

No, thanks. I don't have to go far to find fraudulent aiki-jujutsu and I don't bother to visit them, so I see no need to travel to Denmark to do the same thing.

And far more importantly, I have too many legitimate teachers to visit to spend any time traveling to see those who misrepresent themselves and such ancient arts as aiki-jujutsu.

David

MM
01-24-2011, 02:14 PM
Why'd you have to go and bring fishing into this ???

You're killing me:eek: :confused: :( :freaky: :dead: :crazy: :uch:
:D :D

Yeah, speaking of, when are we going fishing next, Howard? :D

Howard Popkin
01-24-2011, 02:42 PM
Right now, its all cod, but a little too cold.

I don't go under 40 ish degrees, because I'm to old to be a the rail all day and freeze.

I prefer summer tuna fishing :)

Who is in ? :D

Aikirk
01-24-2011, 02:44 PM
By claiming to teach aiki-jujutsu, your group attempts to associate itself with a long line of people who have discovered and developed certain principles of nature and pass them on whole and complete, with honesty and integrity. Your group has shown a fundamental dishonesty and lack of integrity that needs no further questioning.

David

You tie too much importance on the name. People will quickly realize that this is not Aikijujutsu. Partly because of our black dogi and lack of hakama, and partly because we tell them. And it's called "Kyusho Aiki Jutsu" and not "Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu" or anything else. I think people are smart enough to see the difference here. Your argument is equvalent to Facebook claiming copyright on everything spelled with "face" in it.

If we tried to associate ourselves with japanese Aikijujutsu, would our master write about it on the official website?

www.kyushoaikijutsu.com (You can make Google Chrome translate it, and then you can look around. We claim no heritage to Aikijujutsu or other traditional Aiki Jutsu schools. Only that we use Aiki principles.)

I'm sorry I could not let this matter go, when you so severely attack us only based on our name. We claim only linage Systema, HKI and Kyusho Jitsu, and we would have it no other way.

I do respect heritage, but you when judge us on only this I don't get it.

Mike Sigman
01-24-2011, 06:08 PM
I am not a student of Ushiro Sensei although I have been on the mat with him far more times than I've managed with you guys. I am good friends with both of his personal American students and have discussed what he teaches at length with them. The work contained in his kata, like Sanchin Kata, is straight internal power training. George, I studied Okinawan karate (Uechi Ryu) on Okinawa (under Seiyu Shinjo) and, like in a few other Okinawan karate arts (including ones that later made it to Japan), Sanchin is the staple "first kata". "Sanchin" kata comes from the San Zhan kata of Fujien White Crane. The kata is essentially a conditioning kata and while it should be done with kokyu/jin and breathwork, most beginners never have a clue about those parts because they're not overtly taught as part of the kata. For all practical purposes, you could think of a Morihiro Saito with some kokyu skills teaching the jo kata as a kokyu device. It only teaches kokyu within it if the kokyu is explicitly shown. This is true of Sanchin kata. Unless you can name some student of Ushiro that has learned kokyu by just learning the choreography of that kata, I think it's pretty improbable that someone is going to learn "straight internal power" via that kata. And trust me, I know tons of people who do Sanchin kata, so I know a fair amount about this. BTW, I hope the fact that this form of 'kokyu' coming via a Chinese martial art doesn't confuse people who are only used to Japanese kokyu. ;)

I think I'd make the overall point that words like "energetics" etc., are interesting and I'd like to hear some specifics, but it's difficult for me to grasp vague terms within otherwise clear debate.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

kewms
01-24-2011, 06:16 PM
Unless you can name some student of Ushiro that has learned kokyu by just learning the choreography of that kata, I think it's pretty improbable that someone is going to learn "straight internal power" via that kata.

When I saw Ushiro Sensei teach the Sanchin kata, there was a great deal more to it than "choreography." Have you attended any of his seminars? Crossed hands with him?

Katherine

Mike Sigman
01-24-2011, 06:32 PM
When I saw Ushiro Sensei teach the Sanchin kata, there was a great deal more to it than "choreography." Have you attended any of his seminars? Crossed hands with him?
I watched Ushiro teaching people a fairly choreographic kata. BTW... if it's possible, could you and others debate an issue without bringing the other person into things personally? Sure, it helps to know if I've seen him teach the kata and if I've "crossed hands" with him, just as it might be interesting for me to know if you know anything at all about internal strength, what your background is in it, if you've 'crossed hands' with people like Chen Xiaowang as I have, if you've got about 50 years of martial-arts experience with the implication that someone with less than that doesn't understand martial-arts, and so on, but let me tell you a better way to do it on the internet......

I established that I have experience with Sanchin kata. I didn't say anything like "Ushiro sux", I said that Sanchin kata isn't going to particularly teach anyone internal strength (but if I'm wrong, show me). The correct debating point is "Oh, Sanchin kata will teach you internal strength and here is how it does that .....". We may disagree, but the point is that if Sanchin kata teaches something which is in itself physically demonstrable, then the method by which Sanchin kata does that training is physically discussable. Right?

So without you and I getting into a discussion of where the other person has some glaring personal faults, let's see if "how Sanchin kata shows or imbues or teaches, etc., internal strength" can be explored.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

kewms
01-24-2011, 06:42 PM
I don't have enough experience with Ushiro Sensei to say what he can or cannot do or teach, except to observe, as I said, that he discussed quite a bit more than choreography in the presentation of Sanchin kata that I saw.

Since you have, as you say, personally seen him, I'll leave it to your vast knowledge of internal arts to draw whatever conclusions you like.

Katherine

Mike Sigman
01-24-2011, 06:48 PM
I don't have enough experience with Ushiro Sensei to say what he can or cannot do or teach, except to observe, as I said, that he discussed quite a bit more than choreography in the presentation of Sanchin kata that I saw.

Since you have, as you say, personally seen him, I'll leave it to your vast knowledge of internal arts to draw whatever conclusions you like.

KatherineThanks for your insightful observations and contributions to the topic!

Mike Sigman

Marc Abrams
01-24-2011, 08:10 PM
I don't have enough experience with Ushiro Sensei to say what he can or cannot do or teach, except to observe, as I said, that he discussed quite a bit more than choreography in the presentation of Sanchin kata that I saw.

Since you have, as you say, personally seen him, I'll leave it to your vast knowledge of internal arts to draw whatever conclusions you like.

Katherine

Katherine:

Ushiro Sensei emphasizes that Sanchin Kata focuses on two major areas. 1) Kokyu- Breathing. Breathing is unified with movement. As one gets better in this area, the breathing becomes an integral part of the explosive power with the punch. 2) Shime- Tightening. The emphasis is on relaxing the joints so that a unified tightening is created in the body. This is critical in developing explosive power. It is spoken as developing "Bu" through "Ju" (hard through soft). It is simply not worth getting in a debate with certain people as to whether or not something teaches you and/or constitute "internal power." You saw something that indicated a depth of material. Hopefully, it was to your benefit in your own training.

Regards,

Marc Abrams

Mike Sigman
01-24-2011, 08:44 PM
Ushiro Sensei emphasizes that Sanchin Kata focuses on two major areas. 1) Kokyu- Breathing. Breathing is unified with movement. As one gets better in this area, the breathing becomes an integral part of the explosive power with the punch. 2) Shime- Tightening. The emphasis is on relaxing the joints so that a unified tightening is created in the body. This is critical in developing explosive power. It is spoken as developing "Bu" through "Ju" (hard through soft). It is simply not worth getting in a debate with certain people as to whether or not something teaches you and/or constitute "internal power." You saw something that indicated a depth of material. Hopefully, it was to your benefit in your own training.
I suppose I'm the "certain people" so rudely referred to, but *leaving me out of the actual topic*, how about explaining how and when it's supposed to work... the Sanchin and internal strength? Seeing something and believing firmly that it will develop power is something one of the characters in the Wizard of Oz might believe in fervently, but in the real world, how would Sanchin develop internal power. And yes, I happen to know the answer, but my central point had to do with the fact that people following the latest trend on AikiWeb aren't ending up often enough with internal strength for all the fuss. In other words, if a beginner (which I was, at one time, and I darned well remember it) comes to me and says, "I want to learn internal strength", I wouldn't say "Go to Joe Blow and let him teach you Sanchin.... it's just chock full of IP power". Is that really what we'd do to newbies because it sounds cool and it doesn't rock the boat? Noobs don't need to be used as cannon fodder for workshops, IMO.

Show me a few gaijin people that have studied Sanchin with Ushiro who have developed internal strength. I haven't met any and I'm certainly willing to be pleased and open if I do meet someone like that. If it's even marginally good I'd say "Awesome". If there's no results from a certain type of training I think it would take the lowest type of person to continue sending newbies off to pay the seminar bills. Hence my question to Ledyard Sensei about Sanchin's internal power. Let's think of the Noobs as human beings rather than as pigskin wallets. ;)

FWIW

Mike Sigman

Erick Mead
01-24-2011, 08:53 PM
... the point is that if Sanchin kata teaches something which is in itself physically demonstrable, then the method by which Sanchin kata does that training is physically discussable. Right?

So ... let's see if "how Sanchin kata shows or imbues or teaches, etc., internal strength" can be explored.
FWIW -- I see in Sanchin, in a different way, what I see also in the kokyu undo in Aikido. Both code the results of a manner of movement/force concentration/dissipation -- I think that just "doing sanchin" will not teach one much -- if "doing" sanchin is what one is trying to learn. It does not teach -- it codes an outcome... it shows a certain set of shapes of movement/stress, such that when one grasps it results in something very like sanchin occurring when you act in that way.

Sanchin is the rough measure of the shape of the resultant -- and what one strives for is the manner of bodywork that just ends up that way without conscious intervention greater than for walking. Same for the kokyu undo. Like having the multiple choice test answers -- but you have to read the text book to find the questions they respond to. Sanchin, like kokyu undo, is to give you defined areas to focus on in a poorly defined text -- and to help check your work -- it is not a substitute for reading the book.

Mike Sigman
01-24-2011, 09:08 PM
FWIW -- I see in Sanchin, in a different way, what I see also in the kokyu undo in Aikido. Both code the results of a manner of movement/force concentration/dissipation -- I think that just "doing sanchin" will not teach one much -- if "doing" sanchin is what one is trying to learn. It does not teach -- it codes an outcome... it shows a certain set of shapes of movement/stress, such that when one grasps it results in something very like sanchin occurring when you act in that way.

Sanchin is the rough measure of the shape of the resultant -- and what one strives for is the manner of bodywork that just ends up that way without conscious intervention greater than for walking. Same for the kokyu undo. Like having the multiple choice test answers -- but you have to read the text book to find the questions they respond to. Sanchin, like kokyu undo, is to give you defined areas to focus on in a poorly defined text -- and to help check your work -- it is not a substitute for reading the book.

I basically agree, Erick. So let's re-phrase it like this:

Doing Kokyu-ho undo won't give you internal strength unless you know how to do it as coded for internal strength. IF a person has been doing Kokyu-ho undo correctly for umpteen years they don't need to learn Sanchin because they would already have internal strength. I basically made that same argument on this forum about 5-6 years ago.

FWIW

Mike Sigman

kewms
01-25-2011, 02:10 AM
It is simply not worth getting in a debate with certain people as to whether or not something teaches you and/or constitute "internal power." You saw something that indicated a depth of material. Hopefully, it was to your benefit in your own training.

Yes, I've concluded that. And yes, I found Ushiro Sensei's presentation helpful.

Katherine

Budd
01-25-2011, 09:36 AM
I feel like we're circling around the meat of the actual discusion, which to me is - what discrete elements around internal strength can we identify and how are they trained? What I see happening is that people say (paraphrasing), "This is cool! I like it, it must be internal!!"

So using Sanchin as an example - the two areas that Marc speaks to (breath integrated movement and loosening the joints) are certainly basic pieces of the kinds of conditioning you need to do in order to rewire your body - actually, what I wrote is misleading - they are *key* components that you will keep building on as long as you are training. And what I've seen by a lot of people doing Sanchin kata is certainly emphasizing breath and stretching (CAVEAT & NOTE: I've not seen Ushiro or any of his peeps practice this kata), but also with "locked" poses and external/localized tension in arms, shoulders, letgs, etc.

The clips I've seen where Ushiro s moving, he's not showing the localized tension - but the point I'm making around Sanchin is that there's most likely a "right" way to do it and a "progressvely less correct" ways. Just like funakogi-undo (rowing) in aikido. Find the clip where Ueshiba is doing it with Terry Dobson and you can see very different "types" of movement exhibited by the two (and before anyone gets their thong bunched together - I'm not saying that Terry sucked or didn't know anything, okay?).

So in addition to using Sanchin to train breath, pressure, stretching and relaxation - there's a fundamental (almost said "weight management" ha!) connection (almost said "middle managment" ha!) componet that involves how you bring your "intent" and "strength" (using that loaded term - even though it encapsulates heaven/earth, ground/gravity, etc. all that) to a single point to an overall covering throughout the body and back to a single point and . .so on and so on.

For instance, in funakogi - there's an accompanying stretch and release on he inside before the arms come forward and back. How that stretch is managed and released gets increasingly more complex based on how the body is conditioned over time because more of you will be coordinated together to act as a single connected unit. How you manage the ground pushing you up and gravity pulling you down to manipulate the stretch - will result in how powerful your release ends up being. How well conditioned your body is (relaxed, connected etc.) will result in how much power you can load into the stretch. The use of local muscle will inhibit these things.

The are the nuts and bolts in how I define internal strength. This other talk of energetics, etc. I'm curious about - but less from the perspective of "Oh my sensei does cool shiznit with energy" and more along he lines of how it works - what and how are you training yourself to do?

If people can refrain from having to discuss personalities - I think it will be more productive for everyone. I keep seeing the phrase - "Budo is all about the relationships" (again paraphrasing). Fine, depending on your definition of Budo (e.g. something you belong to versus something you DO and ARE), I can buy into that. But in terms of these "how to" discussions - I care a lot less about how much fun you had attending someone's class or how affirmed you feel as a person. Obviously it should be a relatively "safe" environment . . but can you see how that's a separate discussion?

Marc Abrams
01-25-2011, 11:05 AM
I feel like we're circling around the meat of the actual discusion, which to me is - what discrete elements around internal strength can we identify and how are they trained? What I see happening is that people say (paraphrasing), "This is cool! I like it, it must be internal!!"

So using Sanchin as an example - the two areas that Marc speaks to (breath integrated movement and loosening the joints) are certainly basic pieces of the kinds of conditioning you need to do in order to rewire your body - actually, what I wrote is misleading - they are *key* components that you will keep building on as long as you are training. And what I've seen by a lot of people doing Sanchin kata is certainly emphasizing breath and stretching (CAVEAT & NOTE: I've not seen Ushiro or any of his peeps practice this kata), but also with "locked" poses and external/localized tension in arms, shoulders, letgs, etc.

The clips I've seen where Ushiro s moving, he's not showing the localized tension - but the point I'm making around Sanchin is that there's most likely a "right" way to do it and a "progressvely less correct" ways. Just like funakogi-undo (rowing) in aikido. Find the clip where Ueshiba is doing it with Terry Dobson and you can see very different "types" of movement exhibited by the two (and before anyone gets their thong bunched together - I'm not saying that Terry sucked or didn't know anything, okay?).

So in addition to using Sanchin to train breath, pressure, stretching and relaxation - there's a fundamental (almost said "weight management" ha!) connection (almost said "middle managment" ha!) componet that involves how you bring your "intent" and "strength" (using that loaded term - even though it encapsulates heaven/earth, ground/gravity, etc. all that) to a single point to an overall covering throughout the body and back to a single point and . .so on and so on.

For instance, in funakogi - there's an accompanying stretch and release on he inside before the arms come forward and back. How that stretch is managed and released gets increasingly more complex based on how the body is conditioned over time because more of you will be coordinated together to act as a single connected unit. How you manage the ground pushing you up and gravity pulling you down to manipulate the stretch - will result in how powerful your release ends up being. How well conditioned your body is (relaxed, connected etc.) will result in how much power you can load into the stretch. The use of local muscle will inhibit these things.

The are the nuts and bolts in how I define internal strength. This other talk of energetics, etc. I'm curious about - but less from the perspective of "Oh my sensei does cool shiznit with energy" and more along he lines of how it works - what and how are you training yourself to do?

If people can refrain from having to discuss personalities - I think it will be more productive for everyone. I keep seeing the phrase - "Budo is all about the relationships" (again paraphrasing). Fine, depending on your definition of Budo (e.g. something you belong to versus something you DO and ARE), I can buy into that. But in terms of these "how to" discussions - I care a lot less about how much fun you had attending someone's class or how affirmed you feel as a person. Obviously it should be a relatively "safe" environment . . but can you see how that's a separate discussion?

Budd:

Very good points. His breathing method is different than the one taught by Ki Society. The breath in is allowed to occur naturally (not like to controlled breathing in as done in Ki Breathing). He emphasizes keeping around 20% of the breath in your lungs when you finish with the exhaling through your mouth. He finishes with a short, compressed burst outwards, that is linked to the explosive power. This body movement emphasizes the lack of muscle contraction that you talk about. The tightness would best be described as the torsion of the body trains so that the frame is bearing a unified degree of tension that can be easily be released in any direction. Another sign that you are doing it right is that incoming force can pass through you.

He has a variety of tests and bunkai kumite to verify the correctness of one's movements. The learning process is definitely one of trying to develop better patterned movements.

I frankly am staying away from the "internal debate." One person's view of internal is another person's view of external, is another person's view of ....... In the end, we should all be trying to become better martial artists. Thank you for your efforts toward keeping the discussion on topic.

Regards,

Marc Abrams

Budd
01-25-2011, 12:45 PM
Hi Marc,

So if we're crosswalking these things to what I described, perhaps a deeper look would be that the breathwork is intended to make you start to feel how the insides connect within the movement. The compressed burst linked to explosive power could potentially be a means to focus that connected body along to a single point while also managing the micro-muscles that convey your intent (the mental direction of the ground/gravity acting through you as it results in a physical change).

Based on the tests you describe, I see where it can be checking frame and connection - are there explicit drills beyond passing an incoming force towards manipulating their directionality?

Again, just guessing based on what I work on - but does that make sense as the kind of deeper dive that's useful to look at these things - especially "simple" forms, like Sanchin - should be a container to work on all the mental/physical IS conditioning aspects through one drill, I'd wager. So, the better our understanding of the component parts, the better we can see how they fit within the overall landscape of shape.

Thanks for the info,

Best/Budd

Budd:

Very good points. His breathing method is different than the one taught by Ki Society. The breath in is allowed to occur naturally (not like to controlled breathing in as done in Ki Breathing). He emphasizes keeping around 20% of the breath in your lungs when you finish with the exhaling through your mouth. He finishes with a short, compressed burst outwards, that is linked to the explosive power. This body movement emphasizes the lack of muscle contraction that you talk about. The tightness would best be described as the torsion of the body trains so that the frame is bearing a unified degree of tension that can be easily be released in any direction. Another sign that you are doing it right is that incoming force can pass through you.

He has a variety of tests and bunkai kumite to verify the correctness of one's movements. The learning process is definitely one of trying to develop better patterned movements.

I frankly am staying away from the "internal debate." One person's view of internal is another person's view of external, is another person's view of ....... In the end, we should all be trying to become better martial artists. Thank you for your efforts toward keeping the discussion on topic.

Regards,

Marc Abrams

Marc Abrams
01-25-2011, 01:01 PM
Hi Marc,

So if we're crosswalking these things to what I described, perhaps a deeper look would be that the breathwork is intended to make you start to feel how the insides connect within the movement. The compressed burst linked to explosive power could potentially be a means to focus that connected body along to a single point while also managing the micro-muscles that convey your intent (the mental direction of the ground/gravity acting through you as it results in a physical change).

Based on the tests you describe, I see where it can be checking frame and connection - are there explicit drills beyond passing an incoming force towards manipulating their directionality?

Again, just guessing based on what I work on - but does that make sense as the kind of deeper dive that's useful to look at these things - especially "simple" forms, like Sanchin - should be a container to work on all the mental/physical IS conditioning aspects through one drill, I'd wager. So, the better our understanding of the component parts, the better we can see how they fit within the overall landscape of shape.

Thanks for the info,

Best/Budd

Budd:

Remember that I am learning from Ushiro Sensei and can only share from the limited experience that I have. The breathing in Sanchin is very much about connecting breathing and body together. The interesting thing about Ushiro Sensei's burst is that the emanation of energy is 360 degrees. I can only wish to be able to do that one.

There are many tests and many different levels of tests, depending upon your level of development. The interesting stuff is the stuff around neutralizing the force of the other person without changing the directionality of their incoming force.

Ushiro Sensei starts his day by doing Sanchin kata. He talked about always learning new things from all of the kata. I just finished rehab. on my shoulder and have begun my daily kata practice again. I feel as though I have slid backwards in some areas. Interestingly enough, the time I spend on watching video and thinking deeply about certain movements in other kata have helped me clean up my execution in those areas. Thank you for the clarity of your writing. I find it helpful.

Regards,

marc abrams

Budd
01-25-2011, 01:52 PM
Thanks, Marc. I'll be really interested over time to see how you work on connecting the dots between what you're doing now and the burst that Ushiro does. I have an idea in theory how it works, but don't want to comment any further without hands on. I expect a lot of it is the right conditioning combined with the right balance of stretch and release.

Thomas Campbell
01-25-2011, 02:01 PM
And that's the way it should be done.

Thanks, Marc and Budd.

Marc Abrams
01-25-2011, 02:02 PM
Thanks, Marc. I'll be really interested over time to see how you work on connecting the dots between what you're doing now and the burst that Ushiro does. I have an idea in theory how it works, but don't want to comment any further without hands on. I expect a lot of it is the right conditioning combined with the right balance of stretch and release.

Budd:

I'm interested as well!!! This work for me is mentally taxing. I hope that one day, the mental intend can drive easier that it currently is. Luckily, I have some great colleagues and teachers to help me move forward. The nice thing about where I am in my life, is that I feel no sense of urgency or rush, just a dedication to apply myself harder as a student to learning something new every day. I genuinely look forward to meeting you.

Regards,

marc

Demetrio Cereijo
01-25-2011, 02:04 PM
And that's the way it should be done.

Thanks, Marc and Budd.

Seconded.

thisisnotreal
01-25-2011, 03:21 PM
Seconded.

Yes. Thank you.

Erick Mead
01-25-2011, 03:23 PM
I feel like we're circling around the meat of the actual discusion, which to me is - what discrete elements around internal strength can we identify and how are they trained?

So using Sanchin as an example - the two areas that Marc speaks to (breath integrated movement and loosening the joints) are certainly basic pieces of the kinds of conditioning you need to do in order to rewire your body ... what I've seen by a lot of people doing Sanchin kata is certainly emphasizing breath and stretching ... but also with "locked" poses and external/localized tension in arms, shoulders, letgs, etc.

The clips I've seen where Ushiro s moving, he's not showing the localized tension - but the point I'm making around Sanchin is that there's most likely a "right" way to do it and a "progressvely less correct" ways. I would say that the purpose of Sanchin is to emphasize correct connected movement that is also a management of applied stress (which is why the form is often tested by beating on the demonstrator in various ways). The lesson is not localized tension, but whole-body connection in an explicitly FLOWING manner.

The stiffness seen in proper sanchin is not the stiffness of locked-up joints, (or your properly noted criticism of "localized tension"). It is simply very SLOOOW flow. The stiffness is throughout the body without exception. It is the stiffness of using "softened" joints in very "viscous" manner but flowing, like the flow of taffy or cold molasses.

The principle being, if you allow the muscles which want to actuate to just actuate all over, and altogether, then they learn a way of flowing while actuating in a way different from ordinary "push-pull" reciprocating limb movements that is the default most people's bodies have to unlearn. Eventually, the stiffness can soften more and more and the local muscle actuation diminishes progressively and stops inhibiting the flow within the body .
For instance, in funakogi - there's an accompanying stretch and release on he inside before the arms come forward and back. How that stretch is managed and released gets increasingly more complex based on how the body is conditioned over time because more of you will be coordinated together to act as a single connected unit.

Funakogi undo (and udefuri, zengo undo, furitama, and most all fo the kokyu ho undo, etc. ) takes the completely opposite tack compared with sanchin. No limb muscle actuation of any kind should be used and the core is properly used to drive the loose, slinging, shuddering flow throughout the body, out the limbs and back again, in coordination with the breath. Eventually the muscles in the limbs learn the pattern of this action and can assist in guiding it in ways that do not diminish it.

Done properly it has two basic modes: one is the kind of flowy continuous reversal of motions that never stops, i.e. -- the sign changes but the magnitude of the momentum never even goes toward zero - -a la funa kogi done in the slow furling/unfurling motion (i.e. -- "spirit of the Demon Snake" in the Doka).

Breath figures in because the cycle of breath furls and unfurls the torso in precisely the same manner.

The other mode prompts resonance or reverberation in the body seen in tekubi furi and furitama which should ideally bounce the heels spontaneously from its higher frequency oscillations, The Doka calls this the "spirit of bees."

Funa kogi can be done both ways, actually, one looking more like a flag waving in the bereze and the other more like an atemi with the "pop" and the resonance in the reverb of the body in extension drives the retraction spontaneously. It is like a chain rebounding with that stretch you mention -- because it IS a chain rebounding -- a chain of bones.

The use of local muscle will inhibit these things. Localized actuation causes discontinuities or reversals that eat up the flow. Some people call these discontinuities "creases in the suit." Sanchin totalizes actuation throughout the body removing the local discontinuities. Kokyu ho undo removes all actuation except from the core, and thus also eliminates the local discontinuities.

Sanchin has the inexorable flow of a landslide. Kokyu ho undo has the twin aspects of flow in the breaking wave.

Budd
01-25-2011, 03:35 PM
Erick, without getting into a scientific debate regarding your understanding of how internal strength works - I'd say that how the physical forms of both sets of movements is powered (conditioned pressures managing the movement of limbs directed by opposing forces inside you) is the same . . think a bit more about "what" causes the limbs to move. I'm not accepting "shear" as the answer, either ;)

Erick Mead
01-25-2011, 03:49 PM
Erick, without getting into a scientific debate regarding your understanding of how internal strength works - I'd say that how the physical forms of both sets of movements is powered (conditioned pressures managing the movement of limbs directed by opposing forces inside you) is the same . . think a bit more about "what" causes the limbs to move. I'm not accepting "shear" as the answer, either ;)Fair enough, the "what" is the thing, after all, that the exercises only point to. I agree both are powered. Let me work with you on our respective definitions, because I think we are not so far apart.

"Conditioned pressures" is what I would describe as "stresses," or if you prefer, "managed stresses." Now, I would understand those stresses in a certain way.

How would you understand them, assuming for purposes of the discussion we are both seeing the same things in these examples? How do you describe them when trying to discuss them ? How are the forces opposed ?

I ask these to make a point about your statement above that may help our discussion, but I would prefer to have your understanding, rather than imposing my own, or at least so you do not perceive me to impose terminology you are not comfortable applying in this way.

Budd
01-25-2011, 03:50 PM
Fair enough, the "what" is the thing, after all, that the exercises only point to. I agree both are powered. Let me work with you on our respective definitions, because I think we are not so far apart.

"Conditioned pressures" is what I would describe as "stresses," or if you prefer, "managed stresses." Now, I would understand those stresses in a certain way.

How would you understand them, assuming for purposes of the discussion we are both seeing the same things in these examples? How do you describe them when trying to discuss them ? How are the forces opposed ?

I ask these to make a point about your statement above that may help our discussion, but I would prefer to have your understanding, rather than imposing my own, or at least so you do not perceive me to impose terminology you are not comfortable applying in this way.

That's also fair - have to run for a bit to train, but if the discussion hasn't moved on, I'll reply later this evening, okay?

Budd
01-26-2011, 11:57 AM
That's also fair - have to run for a bit to train, but if the discussion hasn't moved on, I'll reply later this evening, okay?

So got delayed more than I expected - but the basic principle around "conditioned pressures" - to take it a step back towards the Asian definitions - is that you are managing the meeting of gravity/heaven and ground/earth inside you. So there's a skill/trick component at work with how you best manage natural forces around you from a balance perspective. If someone add's another force (say a push, or pull from a grab), it just becomes part of the sum total that you're managing.

Just those pieces alone are aspects of the "skill" at work in this stuff. Another piece - which requires a lot of conditioning work over time - is to better rewire your body to manage those external forces and connect the body. How you breath, how you stand, how you perform the most basic movements over time - all come under heavy scrutiny because there very definitely is a "right" and "wrong" way for this. The "right" way involves training the legs and middle to fully support the upper body and to act as primary power generators.

As you condition the body over time through correct practice (and yes, I'm intentionally leaving things out because it needs to be shown hands on) you will gain the ability to coordinate the management of external forces with the leg/middle strength and store them along various parts of the body via the elastic connections you've trained. It's different from how people normally think of Ki "flowing" in that it's an ongoing stretch/release along the large muscles connecting to the fascia to the bones - so that when one part moves - all parts move.

Erick - do you see how this is different than applied stresses (such as beating the muscles so they don't clench or cut off a visualized "flow")?

Erick Mead
01-26-2011, 03:38 PM
So got delayed more than I expected - but the basic principle around "conditioned pressures" - to take it a step back towards the Asian definitions - is that you are managing the meeting of gravity/heaven and ground/earth inside you. I'll come back to skill later-- First, let' finish work on the "what" before going to the "how."

The question is what is happening to make these two basic components (tenchi or weight/ground) interact. Some people visualize them as a simple down-arrow of weight and an up-arrow of ground (reaction force). I would take issue with that simple image only slightly, but adding to it in an important way.

If the action/reaction arrows meet head to head you have compression, if they join tail to tail you have tension -- same two forces -- but two different actions/ stresses -- or pressures, if you like. The heaven-gravity part, in your terms, is actually the action of weight suspended, and therefore in tension, while the earth-ground part is the action of weight supported and therefore in compression.

But there is a third, and in some senses much more fundamental and more common orientation of the up and down arrows and that is where the neither the heads nor the tails meet. They are offset from one another. This is (if you think about it) a class of interactions that is vastly more common than the relatively rarer instances when action and reaction meet in a perfect line.

In mechanical terms the two opposed forces out of line in that way are eccentric, and two eccentric forces define a shear. The offset cutting action of scissors is called shearing for this reason. Let us just note that point in passing, for now, and then move on in your terms to look at the "what" of things that are going on in the body.

So let's start at the ground and work our way up the body in stages and see if we agree on some things as we go. Start with the most basic bipedal activity -- walking. We have two legs. To move requires shifting the support from one leg to the other in succession, typically. Unless you are a kangaroo, one leg is always in relative compression and the other is in relative tension, hanging, in a sense from the "frame" and these alternate.

Standing (a la zhanzhuang) this difference of stress depending on how the weight is disposed between the legs can be accentuated by extension or stretching of the tension side, or by driving the weight more firmly onto the weighted side. In fact doing one requires the other and vice versa, which betrays something about the nature of the relationship between these opposing forces, actions or stresses, and how they interact.

But these two lines of opposing force/stress/pressure must meet (obviously) in some manner just above the junction of the legs. and they alternate in moving (or striking, I might add). So an important interaction must happen there.

So, the question, after this long preface, is to you, in your terms: How do you understand the interaction of those two opposing forces at the hara or xia-dantian? I think we agree that is how we call the place where it occurs.

If you prefer to answer that operatively rather than trying to define it -- that's fine. Operation implies a defnition, so we can work back to a definition that you may agree with based on your sense of the operation you use or perceive in controlling or manipulating it.

I would suggest, if that operative approach is your preferred way of addressing it to start with this that you already said, because we are in full agreement on this point:

The "right" way involves training the legs and middle to fully support the upper body and to act as primary power generators. ... it's an ongoing stretch/release along the large muscles connecting to the fascia to the bones - so that when one part moves - all parts move. The question between us under discussion being, of course, the "what" that is moving them -- so we are close on the hunt for common meaning, in this, I think

Erick - do you see how this is different than applied stresses (such as beating the muscles so they don't clench or cut off a visualized "flow")? I do. And perhaps you mistake my meaning as to "applied stresses" because I am talking about a systemic condition of differing but innately related stresses that connect the whole body, very much in the manner you suggest, though my terms, as you know, differ, though not as much or to the effect that I think you think they do.

Bear with me, and let's see if we continue to close any gaps in our respective meanings.

Budd
01-27-2011, 07:09 PM
I sorta feel we're around the limits of what we can have as a dialogue until we get hands on time (or have mutual contacts vet what we're doing) - but I agree with you that there's a joining where the two natural forces of ground/gravity meet. Part of the training is managing the intersection of those forces in you AND conditioning your body to more efficiently manage that intersection (and additional "inputs" - whether they be a weapon, other people, etc.).

If we go back to the "what" . . and describe that as the intersection .. you've used the term "shear" and I think I know what you're going for - but I would add that there's a few other factors you aren't giving due consideration to and may be perceived as a tipoff to others that have extensive time and training in this area.

So there's an intersection and a natural power output - whatever you wanna call it. But at this point there's a conditioned trick for getting that output where you want it to go - hands, foot, head, through somebody else, out the end of a weapon, etc. This involves stretch and elasticity of the body as well around the management and delivery of that intersection - through the bones, ligaments and muscles acting as one unit. I don't go into too much detail online around this, because there's some risks when you haven't been shown how to do it correctly - and I'm a firm believer in this area of the "it has to be felt" principle.

This is where I tend to see the biggest differences in approach, which parts of the body are responsible for the stretch and release, how they're coordinated, trained, etc. The "what" that is moving the intersection is going to depend on your level of training and ability - it could be local muscles, could be the middle, could be the mind firing off micromuscles, could be some combo of things . .

Erick Mead
01-27-2011, 08:27 PM
I sorta feel we're around the limits of what we can have as a dialogue until we get hands on time (or have mutual contacts vet what we're doing) - but I agree with you that there's a joining where the two natural forces of ground/gravity meet. No one goes farther than they're willing and I won't ask it of you.

Part of the training is managing the intersection of those forces in you AND conditioning your body to more efficiently manage that intersection (and additional "inputs" - whether they be a weapon, other people, etc.).

If we go back to the "what" . ...
So there's an intersection and a natural power output - whatever you wanna call it. But at this point there's a conditioned trick for getting that output where you want it to go - hands, foot, head, through somebody else, out the end of a weapon, etc. This involves stretch and elasticity of the body as well around the management and delivery of that intersection - through the bones, ligaments and muscles acting as one unit.

I don't go into too much detail online around this, because there's some risks when you haven't been shown how to do it correctly - and I'm a firm believer in this area of the "it has to be felt" principle. I am sensitive to that point, and give you credit for genuine concern for the unwitting.

You don't have to agree with my views on shear stress, moment and angular momentum transfer to know we share concerns about uninformed training. I don't promote a method, there are several of those -- I work on principles. Some wish to think me ivory tower, impractical, or substituting verbiage for training. Let them think so.

You mentioned weapons twice. Weapons are irreducible --there is no muscle, fascia, ligament, nervous connection or anything else, -- nothing but the connection itself. Weapons is where I began to see things that led me where I am. Clearing the line while in contact without lifting or moving the sword beforehand is the genesis of my thought. The "what" in the body that acts in the same way became my guide to finding things in the body that utilize, are sensitive to, and manipulate that "what."

You seem a practical man, and that is commendable, so you want a method that works. But the "why" of the "what" is my thing. And that demands a little more than just a method that gives some results -- and several do, and many are satisfied with that. My thing involves critically taking apart examples to find common threads that lead to consistent explanations that may (eventually) lead to better or more efficient results.

Demanding immediately applicable methods is somewhat beside the point -- at least for me, as I have no wish to supplant any that are out there. By analogy, without such an approach we would be left with the only uses of airflow being sailing ships and windmills -- but we have 747's and helicopters. I think the topic deserves more along those lines. What I have done so far makes all the training methods I was given in the last twenty-five years work FAR better over the last ten (and as I see it, more like they were intended). YMMV.

That's one reason why I don't "get out," apart from personal commitments -- I have confirmation that what I am working on is both useful and true. I can't ask for more than that to keep me going in this direction.

Mike Sigman
02-06-2011, 08:57 AM
That's one reason why I don't "get out," apart from personal commitments -- I have confirmation that what I am working on is both useful and true. I can't ask for more than that to keep me going in this direction.

Erick, I "get out" and have done so, in relation to internal strength, for about 35 years. I also have a fairly analytic mind and got many 'confirmations' along the way. The problem is that information about the full spectrum of "internal strength" skills is very limited and you can't extrapolate it all by yourself. Get out and beat the bushes. ;)

Mike Sigman

tokauhan
05-10-2012, 05:47 AM
Dear Fellow Martial Artists,
First sorry that my response on this comes about an year too late. Also please excuse me if this is in wrong part of this forum.
I am the founder of the system called Kyusho Aiki Jutsu and by selecting this name to represent the method i teach is to respect old and current masters in the world. Not to disrespect any arts by any means.
I have been studying martial arts 30+ years and respectfully have been looking all possible directions to seek answers – nothing high flying, but congrete, solid knowledge. I am humbly sorry if someone somewhere is insulted by using the term aiki in the name of this art. It is not to be directed to aiki-jutsu nor aiki-jujutsu, only to the term of aiki.

The origin of the name of Kyusho Aiki Jutsu -method
Despite the controversial discussions about George A. Dillman or anything related. I would like to state my point of view with little explanations of the name of the Art i teach.
My personal experience comes mainly from karate, but during last 17 years i have been traveling all around and met various experts of various martial arts. Nothing was better or worse than another one. What i truly have found, is humble, dedicated martial artists all around.
Before i met Mr. Dillman, i was training traditional karate and there were not allowed to ask questions, just practise what were shown. He ’gave’ the permission to ask questions. That was first good change.
He gave also a lot of valid, and good information about body’s functions and yet, pressure points – how to manipulate ones body in the situation of survive. In this writing i do not comment anything about chi, ki, prana etc. Or its controversial discussion is it true or not.
I live literally in the middle of no-where, and i have had lot of time to read, study, ponder and try out foundings/ideas. During this path i have found the importance of knowing oneself, not only mental but also physical way. This has lead forward being able to ”read” opponent(s) as well, to spot their weaknesses upon a physical contact and without.
Kyusho, is in the name, because, even i haven’t been associated with George Dillman since 1993, i still respect his years of study and his will to share what he has – so i felt that best way to respect that is to use word Kyusho in the name. My studies has gone way more deeper, than point here or there. In the direction of medical studies, to understand phenomenons beyond.
Aiki, has way more deeper meaning to me. I have studied diligently many masters, and their tips and hints. I cannot say that i fully understand it in the way they did, but i believe that i have found the essence of it. I truly and fully respect the history of the arts.
To me it means the meet opponents force / attack without physical force, or fear. Meeting does not happen only in the physical nor mental way, but together. Its difficult, if not impossible to plan the movements, those will appear when actual, intented attack has been decided.
Doing a movement from the center thru the heart will create a moment, where the energy of attack is neutralized and if needed sended back to uke’s mind to be redirected certain direction. This happens within the movement of combining subconscious mind and body, without muscular effort while maintaining balance and ’empty body’.
Third part of the name, Jutsu, means literaly technique or way, i didnt want to use word do for it as many sport arts uses that, jutsu refers to the direction of ancient masters and their work. To show respect towards them.
For me the name is not the issue at all, it could be called whatever name – but as above i wroted, i hope that you can see my deep respect to all those who has walked on this path before my time. The name of the system is full of respect.

I also would like to ask few questions…
Who was the first one to use name aiki?
What was his understanding of it?
How he could find it, if it cannot be learned without someone teaches it?
Has aiki changed during the years of history? If yes, why?
S. Takeda, M. Ueshiba, Y. Sawaga, G. Shioda and many others has described aiki different way, as in this forum discussion someone stated – everyone experiences a aiki in their own, personal way. And this is why everyone will answer differently to the question ’What is aiki?’

Thank you for you time for reading this thru.

Yours in the Arts,

Toni Kauhanen