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Andrew Macdonald
01-10-2011, 07:42 PM
how many of you include pressure testing in to your regular training.

In some of the other styles i study pressure testing is a big thing, but as yet I haven't encountered it in aikido to the same degree.

has anyone out there looked in to this

Michael Varin
01-10-2011, 08:24 PM
how many of you include pressure testing in to your regular training.

In some of the other styles i study pressure testing is a big thing, but as yet I haven't encountered it in aikido to the same degree.

has anyone out there looked in to thisYes. Extensively.

It's difficult to find, because most instructors, even shihan, lack the courage and understanding to implement such a practice, and many believe it is contrary to the philosophy of aikido.

ChrisHein
01-10-2011, 11:06 PM
One of the big reasons you don't see much Aikido pressure testing is because people have no clue as to how Aikido can be pressure tested. The few that try often find that they end up doing something other then Aikido.

Here is a video from our school. This is our context for Aikido training: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oe1xCP0Wr6Y

Carsten Möllering
01-11-2011, 02:35 AM
Please excuse me:

What do you mean with the term "pressure testing"?
Can you please describe?

Tony Wagstaffe
01-11-2011, 02:54 AM
how many of you include pressure testing in to your regular training.

In some of the other styles i study pressure testing is a big thing, but as yet I haven't encountered it in aikido to the same degree.

has anyone out there looked in to this

It's called shiai in my book....

Amir Krause
01-11-2011, 05:18 AM
We have several ways of "pressure testing"

1) Testing within Kata frame-work
Just like training any other technique, except Sensei instructs to start increasing the speed and force of the attack.

Sensei may also instruct Uke to directly resist the technique, or create a specific semi-static resistance. But these are aimed at teaching Nage to a of movement and not as a "pressure test".

2) Randori / Kyoshu
In Korindo, this chapter is one of the three pillars of training, and we practice it about as much as techniques (level related).

The Randori resembles a sparring in the sense that all attacks are allowed (the most common in our dojo is a punch which may turn into a combination), and one may also evade or counter each technique.
The intensity and pressure are level related. Generally, this practice is not aimed as pressure testing, rather as a way to learn much more about the aikido between the techniques - mai, movement, opportunities identification, etc.
But, at some levels, most people here tend to pass a phase (around 1st ktu to shodan) in which they mistake this practice to be "fight emulation", and they try to "win" in their own eyes (evade all attacks and do a technique on each , counter every technique against them, etc.). Thus, we often have some people the Randori with may easily become a pressure test to some others (those of similar skill).

3) RanSen (other type of Kyoshu)
This training is similar to the Randori I read about in other dojos - multiple attackers attack the same Nage. The common way we do it in RanSen is the attackers may attack simultaneously, and with any attack each of them chooses (again, mostly punching and striking, though grabbing is also allowed).
The level of pressure is being regulated by Sensei, which often has set it to "survive for 30 to 60 Sec prior to lack of function".

All of these practices are done in our dojo in a non competitive setting, and normally with low direct resistance (Uke would not fall unless he has to, and in many cases here may utilize openings to evade and/or counter, but will not block a technique with direct force).

Amir

Michael Hackett
01-11-2011, 09:09 AM
Hi Chris,

I don't understand the video clip very well. With Nage being armed, the continued attacks seemingly would become artificial quickly. It is a rare attacker who will continue attacking after being slashed or stabbed. On the other hand, doing this drill with Nage unarmed and Uke armed seems to make sense in terms of pressure or stress. I don't fault the movement or the principles headlined at all.

Tony Wagstaffe
01-11-2011, 09:42 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xf1kFEUF-uU&feature=related

Pressure testing?.......

Best film fight I've ever seen, even though its a "film" clip.......
Very close to real life....

ChrisHein
01-11-2011, 10:22 AM
Hi Chris,

I don't understand the video clip very well. With Nage being armed, the continued attacks seemingly would become artificial quickly. It is a rare attacker who will continue attacking after being slashed or stabbed. On the other hand, doing this drill with Nage unarmed and Uke armed seems to make sense in terms of pressure or stress. I don't fault the movement or the principles headlined at all.

I do not know how you are using or what you mean by "artificial".

It is not rare that an attacker will continue to attack after he has been cut. Often times people do not even know that they have been life threateningly injured once the adrenaline is going. Training this way makes nage better at dealing with this type of situation, and keeps us from fantasizing about what may happen.

Dealing with multiple attackers unarmed maybe a reality, although an unlikely one (there are weapons at hand everywhere you go). Dealing with multiple armed attackers is part of the Aikido syllabus (in my opinion), but doing that unarmed isn't (again my opinion).

I would be willing to talk with you more about his, but I don't want to hijack this thread. We could start a new one if you are interested.

-Chris

Michael Hackett
01-11-2011, 10:53 AM
Chris,
By "artificial" I meant that continuing the attack after being cut or stabbed is not realistic - that attacker is taken out of the fight. That presupposes that the attacker knows that he is facing a knife, as he does in your drills. I agree that many who are stabbed are unaware that they have been injured, or even that a knife was involved. Most stabbing victims I've interviewed told me that they thought they had been punched. Slash victims knew immediately or were incapacitated to some degree. Those who saw the knife and were stabbed or slashed were aware that they were injured immediately and tried to get away from the armed person. I'm not faulting your method of training - I'm sure that it raises the level of stress considerably and that's a good thing for Aikido training in my opinion.

ChrisHein
01-11-2011, 06:03 PM
Michael,
I see where you're coming from. But, a situation where I simply show a knife, and the attacker runs away are not the type situations that I need to train for. Similarly, if I cut a guy once, and he quits fighting, then bully for me, but that wasn't a difficult situation.

If I find myself in a situation where I cut someone and they don't fall down, but keep attacking, I must be capable of continuing. Doing the exercise like this allows me to practice my cuts on the move, teaches me to deal with people rushing in full force to tackle me, and gives me a practice where I can learn to clear my weapon and keep working. All the while this drill keeps the attackers focus in the areas of Aikido training (wrist control, and rushing attacks).

A real weapon might make things much easier for nage, but we are training toward worse case scenario, where the attacker will keep coming and must be continually dealt with.