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virginia_kyu
05-21-2002, 09:30 AM
hello all, I am a beginner in Aikido and I love it so far but there is just one thing that bothers me, the word "Aikidoka". :D

There is just something about how it sounds that really annoys me, anyone else?

PS: Please don't take me too seriouisly. :)

akiy
05-21-2002, 09:34 AM
You'll find some discussion on the term "aikidoka" here:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1434

-- Jun

tedehara
05-21-2002, 09:44 AM
Originally posted by virginia_kyu
hello all, I am a beginner in Aikido and I love it so far but there is just one thing that bothers me, the word "Aikidoka". :D

There is just something about how it sounds that really annoys me, anyone else?

PS: Please don't take me too seriouisly. :)
YEAH! :D

Aikidoka has bothered me too. Sounds too much like Oh Key Doe Key and other idiomatic American/English phrases. I generally use the word Aikidoist, but I appear to be in the minority on this.

Choku Tsuki
05-21-2002, 03:16 PM
Originally posted by virginia_kyu
...there is just one thing that bothers me, the word "Aikidoka...
PS: Please don't take me too seriously. :)

I prefer "aiki-dorka" because that's how I felt working around outside in my keiko gi (which was not by choice).

--Chuck

Robyn Johnson
05-21-2002, 06:58 PM
Aikidoka is much easier to say than other terms. Like Aikidoist or something. HEY! I just wrote something like this on the e-budo website! :confused:

Robyn :cool:

virginia_kyu
05-21-2002, 08:47 PM
I would like to start a petition drive to end the use of Aikidoka for the following reasons.

1) Apparently the term "ka" implies a profession in the art so unless you make your living doing Aikido you are not an Aikidoka, Thank God!

2) Aikidoka simply sounds ridiculous

batemanb
05-21-2002, 09:44 PM
Originally posted by virginia_kyu

2) Aikidoka simply sounds ridiculous

I would say that this only applies to non Japanese or non Japanese speakers. As a Japanese speaker, I don`t think it sounds ridiculous at all, and it rolls off the tongue quite well. Unless you mean sounds ridiculous in the context that it is being used i.e. point 1.?

As far as use and meaning goes, when I think about it, I can only recall hearing it used in the west. With "ka" indicating profession, it does seem a bit strange to use it to refer to someone who practices Aikido, having said that, there are lot more Japanese words that have been bastardised through the transfer of martial arts to the west:) Hell, we even have problems with plain English transferred between England and America:D :D :D. I don`t think it`s anything to get upset about though, in the grand scheme of things.

When one of my Japanese Sensei sends me e-mail, he always asks me when am I going to come and play aikido with him. Does that make me an Aikido player?

Largo
05-21-2002, 10:31 PM
Personally, I think mixing the japanese and english is would be more annoying (however, if that was my biggest problem in aikido, I'd be grateful). Would we be "aikido-ists"? "aikido-ers"? As far as I know, the suffix -ka is not just something for professionals. At work, because I usually study a lot, some of my co-workers refer to me as a benkyo-ka (study-er I guess) despite not being a professional student. My school's kendo and judo clubs regularly use kendo-ka and judo-ka, despite the fact that they are jr.high kids and definitely not professionals.

Mr. P
05-22-2002, 03:13 AM
And how about calling ourselves "Jedi" :D ?
I've seen some in a movie : their looking is sooooo amazing :cool: !! Moreover, they were working in restoring harmony, weren't they :p ?
Though, I'm afraid a light-bokken is far less impressive :( ...

Just forget that stupid joke :confused: , I've been working since 04h00 AM :dead: ...

Mr. P
05-22-2002, 03:30 AM
(A little) more seriously :disgust: ...
In French, "Akidoist" is a kind hard to pronounce :blush: and we need to articulate more (sorry, I'm a bit lazy sometimes :rolleyes: ).

Since Akidoka (or Akidoist, or Akido-er), or anything else seems it does not satisfy anyone, why don't we call ourselves Akido buddies :) ? A little more festive :D !

Kami
05-22-2002, 03:31 AM
Originally posted by virginia_kyu
I would like to start a petition drive to end the use of Aikidoka for the following reasons.
1) Apparently the term "ka" implies a profession in the art so unless you make your living doing Aikido you are not an Aikidoka, Thank God!

KAMI : No. The term KA implies "a student", not "a professional", in the sense you mean.

Originally posted by virginia_kyu
2) Aikidoka simply sounds ridiculous

KAMI : People think and feel differently, Thank God! I like "Aikidoka" and find "Aikidoist" simply insufferable...
But I also believe in the motto "To each his own"...
Best :cool:

aikilouis
05-22-2002, 05:08 AM
Let's all put red cloaks on and call ourselves Aikidoman and aikido girl !

Misogi-no-Gyo
05-22-2002, 08:17 AM
...perhaps another take on this?

In my studies with Seiseki Abe Shihan, he has shoewn me an interesting way of revealing much about complex, Japanese cultural terms. Like in the west, he dissects a word into its syllables, breaking it down into components.

My own thoughts on the word Aikidoka is as follows:

The suffix, "KA" as many have pointed out, means "one who studies." However, one of its more typical usages is when you are forming a question. For example "iimasuka?" meaning does it exist, or is it existing? Another example would be, aikido wo shitai desuka? meaning Do you like to do aikido?

So what we have is a suffix that denotes the asking of a question. This could mean that Aikidoka could also be looked at as one who is inquiring into what is "aikido"

Any thoughts on this view of the word?

That would be an example of the way that Abe Sensei breaks down many of the complexities in Kojiki. For those who may be interested, here is an example from an interview he did many years ago...

Take the idea of Ame no Minakanushi. Someone given to a religious perspective would probably view Ama no Minakanushi as a specific deity to be worshipped. But as an modern Doctor of Medicine, Futaki Sensei avoided this kind of idolatry. Instead of talking about such things in terms of kotodama, he interpreted them in more modern language. His interpretation of Ame no Minakanushi, for example, went like this:@Ame,@literally meaning "heavenly" or "divine," is simply a term of respect; no is a simple grammatical connector; Mi is a respectful prefix. That leaves naka (center, middle) and nushi (lord, holder of). He felt, therefore, that Ame no Minakanushi does not represent some specific deity observing us from some divine perspective in the cosmos, but that it refers instead to the very first ancestor of our nation who, according to Futaki Sensei, taught the idea of "the importance of the center" (the center being something that every living human being has)." Understand that center and cherish it" was his interpretation. He spoke of aikido as being circular movement, saying that one must find the center and lead all into the circles that surround it.

Here is the full interview---------> Seiseki Abe Sensei Interview (http://www.page.sannet.ne.jp/shun-q/INTERVIEW-E.html)

virginia_kyu
05-22-2002, 08:24 AM
Originally posted by Kami


KAMI : No. The term KA implies "a student", not "a professional", in the sense you mean.



KAMI : People think and feel differently, Thank God! I like "Aikidoka" and find "Aikidoist" simply insufferable...
But I also believe in the motto "To each his own"...
Best :cool:

Well I find AikiDORKA insufferable as well, everytime I hear someone say it in class I cringe. I think I would rather hear fingernails scratching on a chalkboard.

akiy
05-22-2002, 08:29 AM
Originally posted by Misogi-no-Gyo
The suffix, "KA" as many have pointed out, means "one who studies." However, one of its more typical usages is when you are forming a question. For example "iimasuka?" meaning does it exist, or is it existing? Another example would be, aikido wo shitai desuka? meaning Do you like to do aikido?

So what we have is a suffix that denotes the asking of a question. This could mean that Aikidoka could also be looked at as one who is inquiring into what is "aikido"

Any thoughts on this view of the word?
Sounds like it's more like wordplay than etymology to me.

The "ka" suffix isn't just to denote a question but, probably more precisely, the existence of its precedent. So, in a question like "wakarimasuka," the person is asking whether "wakarimasu" ("understand") is existent in yourself.

The "ka" suffix also comes after verbs. When it's suffixed onto a noun, it's usually a question of whether if something is something else (as in, "Is it aikido?"). If the verb in a Japanese sentence is missing, it's usually understood to be "desu" (basically, "to be"). So, your Japanese friend upon hearing you tell jokes may ask (jokingly) something like, "omae nanda -- komedian ka?" which can basically mean something like, "Dude, what are you, a comedian?"

(Sorry to be picky here, but I think "aikido wo shitai desuka" translates more closely to "would you like to do aikido?" "Do you like to do aikido" would probably be closer to "aikido wo suru no ha suki desuka" or "aikido ha shumi desuka"...)

Ubaldo, where did you get the information that the -ka suffix denotes a student? At least in the everyday Japanese language that I've used (and my aikido teacher who is Japanese also agrees, at least), the -ka suffix denotes more a profession than just being a student of the art. One would never say, "watashi ha sakka desu" (I am a writer) when s/he doesn't write for a living...

-- Jun

Mr. P
05-22-2002, 09:11 AM
Maybe we could do a link with our own (kind of) language, couldn't we ?

Indeed, in french for example, we have "pompiste" (filling station attendant) and "fltiste" (flutist).
In one hand, we have someone who earns his living. In the other hand, we have someone who plays.
So, we use the suffix -iste as "the one who does", a kind of mix between "the one who studies" and "the one who works"...

I'm sure we could (if I make no mistake :p ) compare english words in the same way.
So, I think it might be the same in japanese, although I find the previous explanation interesting...

What do you think about it ?

AikiAlf
05-22-2002, 11:12 AM
Hey if we're Anglicizing then we should be
"Wayofharmonywithuniversalenergy-ists"
or according to a more secular interpretation
"accommodationtocircumstance-ists"

Aikidoka may sound funny in English but in the Romance languages it sounds ok. Maybe that's why Aikidoist jars my mind.

And how about the other MA Ka's ; would you be comfortable talking about Karateists, and Judoists?

SeiserL
05-22-2002, 11:31 AM
IMHO, while we are at it, I think we should be able to spell phonetic phonetically.

Until again,

Lynn
Nidan Tenshinkai Aikido
Lucaylucay Kali JKD

Jim ashby
05-22-2002, 12:52 PM
I agree with Lynn. BTW what does onomatopoeia sound like?
Have fun.

Largo
05-22-2002, 10:24 PM
one of its more typical usages is when you are forming a question.

This is a goofy little point...but here goes. They are completely different words.
The -ka that denotes doer or -ist is written in kanji (it's the same one for house). The -ka for a question is a completely different word (and as far as I know) doesn't have a kanji. Japanese has tons of words that sound or seem alike. Take the words for husband and prisoner- both are Shujin, but have different kanji:D

batemanb
05-22-2002, 10:57 PM
Language definitions are a bit outside of my league, so I took the option of asking a couple of my co-workers, one of whom used to be a karateka, the other a kendoka. They told me that ka (kanji () - "ie" meaning house) denotes master or professional, a level lower than Shihan, but could also denote practicioner. Whilst they had heard the terms karateka, judoka and kendoka, Aikidoka was unusual, although they couldn`t say that it was incorrect.

They also informed me that you could refer to yourself as a Karateka or judoka if asked.

I also asked in the abscence of the word aikidoka, what one would call someone who did aikido. The suggestion was aikidojin (aikido person or person following the path of aikido), the logic being that there are karatedojin, kendojin judojin etc.

I just looked up aikidoka on one of the online dictionaries and it translates as aikido practicioner.

Whilst none of this is conclusive, it does suggest that aikidoka may be an incorrect term in the way we use it, although not an incorrect term in the way that it is said.

I will broach this at the dojo tonight to see if anyone else has any thoughts.

Mr. P
05-23-2002, 02:28 AM
You're right :cool: !!
I can't imagine calling myself the way AkiAlf showed ;) .
But, it may have a spiritual meaning (I can't find another word).

Perhaps, Senses wanted their disciples to vow their life to the Budo. We may not forget some lived in their sense's dojo. So, they couldn't do a job :( .
I think the suffix -ka is a way to show that a budoka is fully concerned by his/her training.

It may be an explanation why we find -ka means it's a job.
Don't you think so ?

Bruce Baker
05-23-2002, 08:38 AM
You know, the rules about words are really just the drug induced meanderings of some crusty old perfessor ....

If you want to review, some comedy by George Carlin or even most comedy clubs should suffice ... what was new, articulate ten years ago is now stale and under the mat, while the old comedy of forty years ago is making a comeback in its older comedianes and word context, go figure?

Point being.

As you learn more and more about the Japanese culture, and become familiar with words and terms, they will seem to be second nature.

They are merely tools to understand the verbal ideas of others, whether correctly stated in words or not ... our words are the attempt to put ideas into sound.

Hey, how funny do foreigners sound when speaking in your hometown? Do you think your pronunciation sounds any better to them?

Get over it.

Oh-ki-doe-ki?

Just kidding.

Better than Ai-Ki-I-ee-I-oh! And on this farm ...

Mona
05-23-2002, 03:31 PM
Originally posted by AikiAlf
Hey if we're Anglicizing then we should be
"Wayofharmonywithuniversalenergy-ists"
or according to a more secular interpretation
"accommodationtocircumstance-ists"


I think this answers the question perfectly. :D

Kami
05-23-2002, 05:26 PM
Originally posted by akiy
Ubaldo, where did you get the information that the -ka suffix denotes a student? At least in the everyday Japanese language that I've used (and my aikido teacher who is Japanese also agrees, at least), the -ka suffix denotes more a profession than just being a student of the art. One would never say, "watashi ha sakka desu" (I am a writer) when s/he doesn't write for a living...
Jun

KAMI : Point taken and accepted, Jun San! What I really intended to say was that the term Aikidoka might imply a "student". At least, that's how the term has been used by many people in the West. In Japan, we have a serious problem. Japanese is a language not given to precise meanings. Every term has many meanings, sometimes even opposite one to the other. Just take a look here :
###########################################

[QUOTE]
LARGO : The -ka that denotes doer or -ist is written in kanji (it's the same one for house). The -ka for a question is a completely different word (and as far as I know) doesn't have a kanji. Japanese has tons of words that sound or seem alike.

PETER REHSE : The kanji has many pronounciations but ie and ka are the main ones. Meanings include home and profession, not student. However, it could refer to an intensive experienced practitioner (not a beginner) BUT if you use it about yourself (outside of making a joke) it could be understood as being boastful. I guess its somewhat like sensei or san, you would never use it when describing yourself although others may use it when referring to you. My friend said he considered me an Aikidoka but as I said in a previous post, based on people I know who are truely dedicated I don't think that is right.

WILLIAM KINCAID : actually I have heard from my Japanese instructor that...the ka suffix can mean profession but also could mean a "doer" of something. when we practiced speaking he always made us say "Boku wa Juudoo o shimasu." "Boku wa Aikidoo o Renshuu Shimasu". "Boku wa Karatedo o Benkyoo shimasu." however with the last two a japanese person might look at you strange, but that response would be far better than if you said Boku wa Aikidoo o asobimasu. when I said it one time he looked at me and said, "Anata wa Aikidoo to Juudoo to Jyodoo o Asobi janai." he then stated, "RIAMUsan. Anata wa Aikidoo to Juudoo to Jyodoo o Shimasu."
Personally when I address my Students in Juudoo I call them Juudooka. I just find saying I am a Judo player is akin to saying I am an X-Box player, we happen to be a whole lot more than mere players

BRYAN BATEMAN : Language definitions are a bit outside of my league, so I took the option of asking a couple of my co-workers, one of whom used to be a karateka, the other a kendoka. They told me that ka (kanji () - "ie" meaning house) denotes master or professional, a level lower than Shihan, but could also denote practicioner. Whilst they had heard the terms karateka, judoka and kendoka, Aikidoka was unusual, although they couldn`t say that it was incorrect.
They also informed me that you could refer to yourself as a Karateka or judoka if asked.
I also asked in the abscence of the word aikidoka, what one would call someone who did aikido. The suggestion was aikidojin (aikido person or person following the path of aikido), the logic being that there are karatedojin, kendojin judojin etc.
I just looked up aikidoka on one of the online dictionaries and it translates as aikido practicioner.

MARK FEIGENBAUM : In Japan, most don't use the term judoka until 4-dan or 5-dan. It may be later than that, depending on competitive activity, which is generally halted at godan, which means you deserve rokudan. After that, you had better live to a ripe old age. An older judoka (he's about 93 this year), was just bumped a grade from the Kodokan. Since he was graded to sandan by Kano himself when he was still in Seattle, I'd say he is a judoka. Before that, it is judoshugyosha. The term judoka mainly comes from Europe and Mikonosuke Kawaishi. In Kawaishi's book, Les Katas Complet de Judo (translated into English by EJ Harrison, The Seven Katas of Judo, states that in Japan, the term judoka is only used by the very experienced, but in France we use the term for all who practice judo). [END QUOTE]
#############################################

I'll keep pestering some friends of mine and if I hear anything new, I'll let you know. At this moment, it seems I was wrong, as long as japanese language can determine wrongness.
Anyway, I learn a lot. ;)
Thank you

Bronson
05-23-2002, 11:51 PM
What about the suffix -sha.

Like in the word bugeisha. Bu (martial), gei (the cultivation of craft), sha (the exponent)

This is from Dave Lowry's "Sword and Brush".

As people who simply study aikido would it be appropriate to call ourselves aikidosha?

Is there a word that denotes "a student of", or "a studier of"?

Just wondering.
Bronson

les paul
06-03-2002, 03:33 PM
I once knew a chief who didn't like the word "food." He wasn't a very good chief, seems he never could focus on preparing a meal.

computerdog
06-04-2002, 10:14 AM
I don't mind the word. Actually I start to like it. 'ka' means profession or something you do for life and for living. And that is what is so cool about this word. Aikido is not only what you learn on the tatami, it is something you do every second. So, maybe you will start to like the word one day as well ;)

Greg Jennings
06-04-2002, 10:36 AM
Originally posted by computerdog
'ka' means profession or something you do for life and for living.

Are you sure that you're not redefining the term to suit your own inclinations?

The "or something you do for life and for living" is an alternate definition that I've never come across.

So, because I love cooking, prepare several meals each week, will do so as long as I live and derive a great deal of peace and personal satisfaction, am I a "Chef"?

I guess I don't understand "for life and for living".

Best Regards,

computerdog
06-06-2002, 06:32 AM
I think you now what it means but it is my crappy English that ruins it :freaky:
What I mean is that Aikido should not be something you only practice on the tatami. Not that it is bad if you choose to. But Aikido can be a way of living. You can learn to use AIkido in daily life.
(I would like to refer to the book 'AIkido in daily life' but I can not remeber who wrote it :dead: )
But if you just want to cook when you are hungry, that is fine with me :D

greets :do:

Erik

Greg Jennings
06-06-2002, 06:47 AM
Originally posted by computerdog
I think you now what it means but it is my crappy English that ruins it :freaky:
What I mean is that Aikido should not be something you only practice on the tatami. Not that it is bad if you choose to. But Aikido can be a way of living. You can learn to use AIkido in daily life.
(I would like to refer to the book 'AIkido in daily life' but I can not remeber who wrote it :dead: )
But if you just want to cook when you are hungry, that is fine with me :D


Your English is fine. I marvel at anyone that has enough of any foreign language to carry on a conversation. Mine doesn't extend beyond ordering a beer (but in several languages, is that a good thing???).

Aikido In Daily Life was written by Koichi Tohei Sensei. It was originally pubished, I think, around 1950.

My point is that if we're studying a Japanese martial art and we're going to use the Japanese language, we ought to be courteous enough to use the terms correctly.

Best Regards,

erikmenzel
06-06-2002, 08:31 AM
Originally posted by Greg Jennings
Your English is fine. I marvel at anyone that has enough of any foreign language to carry on a conversation.

So, does this mean you are gonna build a place of worship for me (know 6 languages) and my girlfriend (knows 9 languages and is also my favorite trainingpartner).:D :D :D :D


Mine doesn't extend beyond ordering a beer (but in several languages, is that a good thing???).

I think so, cause after a couple of glasses every language gets transformed into international beertalk anyway, thus making communication easier and harder at the same time. :freaky:

My point is that if we're studying a Japanese martial art and we're going to use the Japanese language, we ought to be courteous enough to use the terms correctly.

Agreed, but still we have to watch out for trying be more japanese than the japanese on the one hand, and being ignorant western peasants on the other hand. It sometimes is just a thin line.

computerdog
06-06-2002, 09:08 AM
I agree with you Erik. I think I will have to get back on this one after I have been talking to my teacher who speaks Japanese.
This because I found that actually 'ka' is pointing to 'you' and can therefore be used in several ways. 'Ogenki desu ka?' means 'how are you?'. This would make sence, but I will get back on this, I promise. I think we are getting all a bit confused here. (I am anyway)

But Gregg, I do not understand a few things here.
---------------------------------------------
My point is that if we're studying a Japanese martial art and we're going to use the Japanese language, we ought to be courteous enough to use the terms correctly.
---------------------------------------------
Before this you said:

---------------------------------------------
So, because I love cooking, prepare several meals each week, will do so as long as I live and derive a great deal of peace and personal satisfaction, am I a "Chef"?
---------------------------------------------

What do you do when you prepare Spaghetti? Do you learn Italian first? :confused:

Oh, and it is not that book I was talking about. The book I was looking for was written by 2 American persons. I will have a look for this one as well anyway. Cheers for that :)

computerdog
06-06-2002, 09:17 AM
This is the book I was talking about.


Terry Dobson and Victor Miller's Aikido in Everyday Life: Giving in to Get Your Way North Atlantic Books, 1978, 1993 ISBN 1-55643-151-1 $14.95). Great book. Highly recommend.

I will talk to my teacher tonight about the rest.

greeetz

:D

akiy
06-06-2002, 09:29 AM
Originally posted by computerdog

This because I found that actually 'ka' is pointing to 'you' and can therefore be used in several ways. 'Ogenki desu ka?' means 'how are you?'. This would make sence, but I will get back on this, I promise. I think we are getting all a bit confused here. (I am anyway)

Once again, this "ka" at the end of a Japanese sentence has nothing to do with the "ka" in the term "aikidoka" -- nor is it denoting the word for "you" as you write above.

The "ka" at the end of a Japanese sentence in this case is, basically, a way to make the sentence into a question. It's kind of like how in German, you can add "oder?" to the end of a sentence to make it into a question ("Sie sind ein Rechsanwalt, oder?").

The "you" in "ogenki desuka?" is not explicitly stated but is inferred. Japanese sentences do not necessarily have to have subjects (nor objects, for that matter) if it can be understood from contect. It's kind of like how in some languages (like Spanish), you can contruct a sentence without the subject if the subject can be understood from how the verb has been inflected ("Tengo dolor de cabeza" versus "Tienes dolor de cabeza"). However, Japanese verbs do not get inflected in the manner of Spanish and German -- it stays "the same."

In any case, I just wanted to also provide at least two data points for native Japanese speakers (myself and my teacher) who, in our experience, have used and have heard used the suffix "ka" as a profession (eg a writer (sakka), a politician (seijika)) -- not just for someone who is referring to a sport, pasttime, or hobby that they do.

-- Jun

Bronson
06-06-2002, 11:25 AM
not just for someone who is referring to a sport, pasttime, or hobby that they do.


Although I don't really consider it to be just a hobby or pastime, I guess the fact that I don't even come close to making a living with my aikido practice would put me in that bracket. So, is there any suffix or word that would be used to denote someone who is a regular student or practictioner of something? If someone played baseball on an amateur neighborhood league, or someone who painted for fun and continued to take painting classes what would they be called?

I'm very confused :confused:

Bronson

akiy
06-06-2002, 11:42 AM
Originally posted by Bronson
Although I don't really consider it to be just a hobby or pastime, I guess the fact that I don't even come close to making a living with my aikido practice would put me in that bracket. So, is there any suffix or word that would be used to denote someone who is a regular student or practictioner of something? If someone played baseball on an amateur neighborhood league, or someone who painted for fun and continued to take painting classes what would they be called?


As I wrote in the thread (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1434) referenced in my first response in this thread (in part):

Originally posted by akiy
If someone were to ask me what kind of hobbies ("shumi") I have, I'd say something along the lines of "I do aikido" ("aikido wo shite imasu"). I don't think there's any precise term to designate someone as "One who practices aikido."

Another way of saying this would be something along the lines of, "Watashi no shumi (no hitotsu) wa aikido desu" ("A hobby of mine is aikido"). If you want to convey that you're very "dedicated" to the art, you could probably say something like, "Aikido wo nesshin ni shite imasu."

Chris? Anything to add?

-- Jun

Peter Goldsbury
06-06-2002, 02:37 PM
Originally posted by Bronson



Although I don't really consider it to be just a hobby or pastime, I guess the fact that I don't even come close to making a living with my aikido practice would put me in that bracket. So, is there any suffix or word that would be used to denote someone who is a regular student or practictioner of something? If someone played baseball on an amateur neighborhood league, or someone who painted for fun and continued to take painting classes what would they be called?

I'm very confused :confused:

Bronson

I think that in Japanese KA ()is precisely such a suffix or word. It is mistake to think of the concept simply in professional or job terms. I think the term CAN denote a kind of expertise in something, whether done for business orfor pleasure, which has been acquired as a result of training or habit.

I have emphasised CAN in the above sentence because the use of the word is much wider in Japanese. So, for example, the following in Japanese are all expressed as ----KA (I have chosen from a list of over 150 in Spahn & Hadamitzky's "The Kanji Dictionary": I have chosen this dictionary because I do not have easy access to a Japanese monolingual dictionary which lists words under any of the characters which occur in the word):

novelist (shousetsuka)
music lover (kougakuka)
voracious reader (tadokuka)
hard worker (doryokuka)
expert (senmonka)
amateur (kouzuka)
aviator (hikouka)
revolutionary (kakumeika)
activist (katsudouka)
orator (nohbenka)
althlete (undouka)
critic (hyouronka)

In one dictionary 'judouka' is translated as 'judo expert', but the KA is also found in Japanese words for slow eaters, dreamers, lechers, and hen-pecked husbands. And I have given only those words with three characters. There are a whole load more with two characters ending in KA (). And there are over 100 other characters read as KA, besides

So, apart from 'aikidouka', which I would apply to someone with a certain expertise in aikido born of a definite commitment over a period of time, I would think the term could apply to, e.g, someone who cooks or paints for a hobby and is thought to be pretty good at it. I don't think English has a suffix which has quite the range of KA in Japanese.

However, as Jun said, I would not use aikidouka to refer to myself, just as I would never use the word 'sensei' to apply it to myself. When asked, I usually reply with the Japanese equivalent of 'I do aikido'.

Best regards,

akiy
06-06-2002, 03:05 PM
Hi Peter,

Originally posted by Peter Goldsbury
I think that in Japanese KA ()is precisely such a suffix or word. It is mistake to think of the concept simply in professional or job terms. I think the term CAN denote a kind of expertise in something, whether done for business orfor pleasure, which has been acquired as a result of training or habit.
Ah, yes. Good point in the above (as well as the rest of your post). Benkyou ni narimashita.

But, here's a question for you. For those "non-professional" -ka words such as doryokuka, tadokuka, kougakuka, and so forth, do you feel like a Japanese person would apply such a monicker to him or herself? In other words, do you think you'd every hear someone say, "Watashi wa tadokuka desu"? I'm asking since I wonder if a Japanese would ever consider him or herself a "ka" when it's not a profession?

Bringing this back to aikido/budo (although it's not quite the same topic), Peter, I know that Japanese teachers (in or outside of aikido) will refer to themselves as sensei (as a profession, not as a title like "mister" or "san") in the context of "Watashi wa aikido no sensei desu. " Do they ever refer to themselves as "shihan," though? Or is the term more or less what others call the person?

While I'm at it, does hearing people refer to themselves as "Such-and-such sensei" (eg "Hi, I'm Smith sensei") sound odd to you, too?

-- Jun

Kami
06-06-2002, 04:23 PM
Originally posted by Peter Goldsbury
I think the term CAN denote a kind of expertise in something, whether done for business orfor pleasure, which has been acquired as a result of training or habit.
However, as Jun said, I would not use aikidouka to refer to myself, just as I would never use the word 'sensei' to apply it to myself. When asked, I usually reply with the Japanese equivalent of 'I do aikido'.
Best regards,

KAMI : Very aptly put, Goldsbury Sama. You wouldn't call yourself aikidoka or Sensei or Shihan. But, if I called you AIKIDOKA, would that be wrong?
By the way, did you get my last personal e-mails with some questions?
Very interested in your answers :)

Peter Goldsbury
06-06-2002, 06:28 PM
Hello Jun,

Hiroshima is fine, but it is very mushi-atsui. I could not sleep, so I got up at 3.30am and wrote that last post. A few more thoughts.

Originally posted by akiy
Hi Peter,


Ah, yes. Good point in the above (as well as the rest of your post). Benkyou ni narimashita.

But, here's a question for you. For those "non-professional" -ka words such as doryokuka, tadokuka, kougakuka, and so forth, do you feel like a Japanese person would apply such a monicker to him or herself? In other words, do you think you'd every hear someone say, "Watashi wa tadokuka desu"? I'm asking since I wonder if a Japanese would ever consider him or herself a "ka" when it's not a profession?

PAG. No, I do not think so. I think the meaning of the KA character carries a strong element of public approbation (or sometimes denigration) and Japanese have been trained over decades never to to apply honorifics to themselves, as I am sure you are aware.

Bringing this back to aikido/budo (although it's not quite the same topic), Peter, I know that Japanese teachers (in or outside of aikido) will refer to themselves as sensei (as a profession, not as a title like "mister" or "san") in the context of "Watashi wa aikido no sensei desu. " Do they ever refer to themselves as "shihan," though? Or is the term more or less what others call the person?

PAG. I have never heard a Japanese aikido teacher here refer to himself as Sensei (as a profession). For example, Kyoichi Inoue on his meishi has Dojo-cho (even in English), but Shihan is used as a title on meishi. I have heard people like Hiroshi Tada refer to themselves as Hombu Shihan when meeting for the first time people unconnected with aikido. I have 'kyouju' on my meishi, for that is my title, but I would refer to myself as 'kyoukan' in a similar situation.

While I'm at it, does hearing people refer to themselves as "Such-and-such sensei" (eg "Hi, I'm Smith sensei") sound odd to you, too?

PAG. Yes, I have been here long enough for it make me wince.

-- Jun

Thus, I think there are two reasons against the use of 'aikidouka' as a general term applying to anyone who does aikido: (a) beginners are still in potential and need to rack up a few more years and skill; (b) since it is a Japanese term, it is not really correct to use it of oneself.

To Ubaldo,

No,you would not be wrong in using 'aikidouka' of me, even though I am not a professional, and I would also use it of quite a number of people who contribute to this bulletin board.

I have received your last e-mail and should have acknowledged it. Forgive me. I am working on the questions.

Best regards to you both,

batemanb
06-06-2002, 06:56 PM
Muddying the water further, I finally got a chance to ask my Sensei this week. The question was "what do you call someone who does Aikido?". I explained about the use of aikidoka, he said "ahh, that`s strange", then decided that budoka would be best.

Kami
06-07-2002, 02:49 AM
Originally posted by Peter Goldsbury
To Ubaldo,
No,you would not be wrong in using 'aikidouka' of me, even though I am not a professional, and I would also use it of quite a number of people who contribute to this bulletin board.
I have received your last e-mail and should have acknowledged it. Forgive me. I am working on the questions.
Best regards to you both,

KAMI : Please, do take your time! I know how little time you do have and I'm always amazed how you have time to answer our questions.
I'm sure the answer when it comes will be, as always, an excellent one.
Best regards and always a good keiko :ai:

computerdog
06-07-2002, 04:35 AM
So here we are again :D
Thanks Jun, you are so right. My teacher slapt me as well because of the 'ka?' mistake.;)
So, it seems like ka is a profession indeed. (someting you do as a profession)
But is also seem to be used as 'him who practices'. (I would like to say it in one word but I do not know how to say this in English)
'Beoefenaar' for them whi speak Dutch or Flamish :freaky:
I double checked this with my Japanese colleague and she said that this is correct but not used very often.
Am I close enough with this one?

Thanks everyone by the way....:)