Deliberations on the transmission of knowledge

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[Lorel Latorilla]

Note to self, a teacher and a student.

They say 'knowledge is power', and yes, it is, in the sense that bestows a form social and political power on the knowledge-wielder. There will always be honest seekers of knowledge, but nevertheless psychologically and emotionally weak. Those with knowledge will be presented with the opportunity to shoehorn their ideologies on these weak people, making out of them something beyond a student: a blind-faith devotee, a fanatic.

I find it interesting to navigate myself in a field (like martial arts), where people with knowledge can narrow the terms used in conversation between himself and the knowledge seeker. With this he can establish a hegemonic discourse (an unchallenged way of speaking to put it briefly) and can literally bring fanatics out of honest seekers--you can turn a supporter and instill in him a kind of loyalty that will make him politically hostile towards other ways and approaches. In other words, sycophancy at its lowest.

What implications does this have for the one with knowledge and the seeker?

As I mentioned above, 'knowledge is power' is not so much a proverb to juice your adrenaline and motivate you to seek knowledge so that you can feel powerful; it is more a warning to those who wield knowledge. It is easy to fall into the trap of pushing your worldview/ideology on weak students by baiting them with the knowledge you possess. While you have the knowledge, your perception of the knowledge is still subject to hermeneutical issues--that is, your perception is an interpretation and is embodied in a set of language that is subject to deconstruction. Should you become a teacher, bear in mind that the terms you set for conversation with the student will not by default transmit knowledge. Adapting and experimenting with the method and doing dirty work with the students will be the most ideal bring about a fluid yet efficient transmission model.

For the student, it is best that you have no political associations with any teacher. Even if you have a teacher with great knowledge, devoting yourself politically to this one teacher will bring about a risk that will halt your progression in acquiring the knowledge you're pursuing. There is a risk that the teacher's transmission method is flawed (his terms are not phenomenologically convenient, for example), or that the teacher itself is a solipsistic, power-hungry fascist, and is consciously aware that setting the terms for conversation is what will bring about sycophants, used only as fodder to satisfy the ego (acquiring a bit of the knowledge is only a by-product in this relationship between weak student and tyrant teacher). In either case, it is best to see these teachers as information sources, some among many. It is also best that you have a community of like-minded people, so that you collectively hash out the implications of the work, transmitted through a potentially flawed model. You see yourself in a field of information, making connections with the different objects in the field. You use the different information sources, cross-reference each source, see what cross-pollinates. Where things overlap, you will sure be sure to find principal. Practise in accordance to these principals, and any innovations will be checked and referred to the different information sources. This way, the information does not get lost in the sea of tyrants and poor teachers. In the mean time, look for the best way to codify the knowledge in such a way that the knowledge can be transmitted without the need for political allegiances.

[DH]

That was very interesting Lorel
As you know, I rarely participate anymore. I resolved that the debating with the "supposed" experts was best done by....meeting with real experts. It is much more conclusive to have a recognized expert put his hands on your back and dantian and then push with you and have them tell you that you are doing X, Y, and Z in their art, than argue on the web.

Sadly, I have noted that some of those shouting from the roof tops the loudest about "teachers holding back" and the "ugliness of martial politics" and the "games you have to play for information"...have proven in the fullness of time it is they themselves who have the darkest personalities and politicing of them all!!

The solution is to tell everyone to go out and train with all of the self proclaimed amateur/experts and the real experts as well. That, in and of itself, forces people to gain more exposure and form opinions on real skill, and method, and then think. Then they can find teachers/coaches with a stable personality that they can work with.

Teachers and coaches can be VERY weird, and information used as a whip or bat just isn't worth it to me. Anyone who tried to convince me they were the only one with knowledge and tried to narrow the dialogue to their terms or tried to convince me they were the arbiter of what is BS or truth...always...ALWAYS... turned out to be the one slinging the most BS. You see it with certain topics with people "crying for a discussion...." then they cancel out everything everyone says...but they themselves never offer anything of substance in rebuttal. Many people seem to have fallen for that.... in great heaping spoonfuls. It's great to be reading more and more people getting hip to this nonsense.
Speaking of nice....
The only place I have ever heard being "nice" written off and spoken about like it was some sort of social disease was in the Non aikido martial traditions section of Aikiweb by certain people. It was spoken about almost as a disqulaifier.

Thanks for reminding everyone to keep their B.S. meters on and
that there are some really fantastic people out there working it and right now this is including some real Martial art experts who are coming together in a common search for the heart of these arts. Wisely...and perhaps rightly so, I have noted that as time goes on,I am seeing certain people being written out of that search, mostly for the behavior you have noted.
All the best
Dan

[mathewjgano]

You see yourself in a field of information, making connections with the different objects in the field. You use the different information sources, cross-reference each source, see what cross-pollinates. Where things overlap, you will sure be sure to find principal. Practise in accordance to these principals, and any innovations will be checked and referred to the different information sources.
I really liked this part...because it's personally very meaningful and represents what I view to be an answer to so many issues different social interactions produce. Part of what makes humans so successful is our social nature...it's also what causes a relatively small disagreement to turn into something huge...or to put it another way: to waste time and energy on other people's petty BS.
...And we all have our own petty BS (even me:p:D), no sense in spreading it around to others. I believe at the end of the day it's all a matter of how dedicated to the truth and the learning of it we are, and that that is a skill worth focusing on all on its own.
...Something like that anyway.

[Lorel Latorilla]

That was very interesting Lorel
As you know, I rarely participate anymore. I resolved that the debating with the "supposed" experts was best done by....meeting with real experts. It is much more conclusive to have a recognized expert put his hands on your back and dantian and then push with you and have them tell you that you are doing X, Y, and Z in their art, than argue on the web.

Sadly, I have noted that some of those shouting from the roof tops the loudest about "teachers holding back" and the "ugliness of martial politics" and the "games you have to play for information"...have proven in the fullness of time it is they themselves who have the darkest personalities and politicing of them all!!

The solution is to tell everyone to go out and train with all of the self proclaimed amateur/experts and the real experts as well. That, in and of itself, forces people to gain more exposure and form opinions on real skill, and method, and then think. Then they can find teachers/coaches with a stable personality that they can work with.

Teachers and coaches can be VERY weird, and information used as a whip or bat just isn't worth it to me. Anyone who tried to convince me they were the only one with knowledge and tried to narrow the dialogue to their terms or tried to convince me they were the arbiter of what is BS or truth...always...ALWAYS... turned out to be the one slinging the most BS. You see it with certain topics with people "crying for a discussion...." then they cancel out everything everyone says...but they themselves never offer anything of substance in rebuttal. Many people seem to have fallen for that.... in great heaping spoonfuls. It's great to be reading more and more people getting hip to this nonsense.
When it comes to IP/aiki it is great to see that Ark is like me...just get out there and do it, keep meeting these so called experts in the martial arts, and let their bodies try and back up their opinions, "understanding," and expertise, and see how it all works out. And in the end... just continue being nice.

Speaking of nice....
I heard a very similar story from Bill Gleason about "The honest exchange" of information and why the web is not the forum to do that in. "Why do you waste your time arguing with people who cannot deliver in real life and spend their time trying to defend a 'position? Don't you get it? They have a vested interest in BEING right. There is no honest intent...in...the discussion, to be had! It's just not worth it."

The only place I have ever heard being "nice" written off and spoken about like it was some sort of social disease was in the Non aikido martial traditions section of Aikiweb by certain people. It was spoken about almost as a disqulaifier.

Thanks for reminding everyone to keep their B.S. meters on and
that there are some really fantastic people out there working it and right now this is including some real Martial art experts who are coming together in a common search for the heart of these arts. Wisely...and perhaps rightly so, I have noted that as time goes on,I am seeing certain people being written out of that search, mostly for the behavior you have noted.
All the best
Dan

Hi Dan,

I knew you would appreciate this. I think it is important at this stage to meet with people because the path to acquire these skills has not been laid out. In other words, this stuff hasn't been 'codified' yet so really, discussion is not beneficial at all to those who are not exposed to these skills, and in part, beneficial for us who are exposed to these skills. Once this stuff has been codified and industrialised (for the sake of a better word), then maybe we can talk about instruction through words.

I'm in the strange position of not being able to train regularly with a group (I live in Osaka, and the Aunkai guys are in Tokyo) so this is a touchy subject for me. The only exposure I have for the most part to getting a true understanding of these skills are words from friends, and training logs and stuff like that. So when I am not allowed to think and tinker with the contents of this stuff, when someone from up and above prevents 'discussion', then I have to cry foul, in some way or another.

Training with 'nice' people is a good way to put it. However, I think there is an unseen gravity here. There is a potential for people to lose their integrity (moral integrity perhaps) in pursuit of these skills. Call it a Faustian bargain. I think it is important to note that we do not need to make 'Faustian bargains' in pursuit of these skills and that the knowledge is out there, and wielded by nice and genuine people who sincerely want to give this knowledge to people.

[Lorel Latorilla]

I also want to add that you can still be loyal to someone. So long as there is mutual respect from both student and teacher and the teacher understands that the stuff we're learning is difficult and permits a degree of flexibility to the student to try to figure this stuff on one's own.

I made it seem like you can't be loyal to anything in the OP, but I drew that conclusion from the consideration that in a world of tyrants, drama, poor teachers, etc., then it is difficult to maintain loyalties.

[Lorel Latorilla]

double post

[mathewjgano]

I also want to add that you can still be loyal to someone. So long as there is mutual respect from both student and teacher and the teacher understands that the stuff we're learning is difficult and permits a degree of flexibility to the student to try to figure this stuff on one's own.

I made it seem like you can't be loyal to anything in the OP, but I drew that conclusion from the consideration that in a world of tyrants, drama, poor teachers, etc., then it is difficult to maintain loyalties.

I thought it was fairly clear you weren't speaking against loyalty. You spoke of a problem things like loyalty tend to produce. I like what you've described, but for me it has nothing to do with my experiences in martial arts...I simply haven't been around that block enough for it to be an issue for me. I grew up wrestling with this idea and over time came to a very lonely position in life simply because I was more loyal to the concept of truth than I was to any person...and I still am, really. The best of people do the worst of things. I try to be loyal to virtue and to people who demonstrate a degree of reliability for sincerity in that regard. "Mutual respect" is a great phrase for this. Of course there is a natural hierarchy for the dissemination of knowledge, and it's important to respect that. The problem comes when two people disagree on which direction that flow ought go (or forget there can be multiple flows), and either both seek to impose their view on the other, or one acquiesces (or they disengage from each other comepletely).
As usual, I don't feel like I'm contributing in a very organized way, so I guess I'll stop for now. This topic brings up so many ideas for me it's hard to pick from them and make something cohesive come about. Good food for thought at the least, so thank you for that!
Take care,
Matt

[Mike Sigman]

Ermmm.... shouldn't this thread be in "Open Discussions" or maybe "Spiritual" or "Not Responsible for Myself" or something?

[Budd]

It's a tricky path to walk no matter how you cut it. I think it depends on what you want to get out of it and the benchmarks you set (and modify as you get more knowledge over time) for yourself on performance, attainment, etc. For some, the path is just as much a part of belonging to something greater than yourself. For others, its a mechanism to exert control on the world, including other people, through various means.

Particularly with "this stuff" there's been a historical precedent for it being doled out in secrecy, or with many strings attached. What has been true, that I've found in the seeking of any kind of knowledge. You can't expect what you are seeking or want to attain to change itself for you . . you need to adapt yourself to it, for better or worse. Sometimes the terms are unacceptable and you have to move on .. for better or worse.

I regard civility as important and pretty much have been happy to work with whomever has wanted to come by and play around with "this stuff". I show them what I'm working on, sometimes they come back, sometimes it's a one and done. I seek out others to put hands on with, so I kinda agree, you have to get out and see what people are doing, spend some time working on things and never get too comfortable.

[mathewjgano]

Ermmm.... shouldn't this thread be in "Open Discussions" or maybe "Spiritual" or "Not Responsible for Myself" or something?

My vote is for open discussions...or maybe "Responsible for Myself," since I see this as a matter pointing to the self as needing to step up, rather than dropping in line behind others.
Whatever the case, it certainly applies to Aikido as much as with any other tradition...although now I can see it's being put more in the context of "internals," which I guess has largely been discussed in terms of non-Aikido traditions.
I guess I was the only one trying to apply it across the board then? Sorry if I misunderstood the context.

[Gary David]

In starting out we all need the teacher to get a kick-start and generally these individuals are associated with some organization. For most of us this is how the journey started. Many of us have taken up a number of different arts over the years, me included, moving on as interests changed. Some have started and stayed with the initial practice, never wavering along the way. Both work. For me what I would characterize as substantive learning comes in differing ways, one being in small groups of like minded people who have enough skill/knowledge to work things out and are in physical contact with each other on a regular basis. Another is that "ah ha" when something keys the combining of a number of loose thoughts into a useful whole. Another might be in taking or "stealing" something useful from a weekend workshop or single encounters, it may come from watching your kid's movements. Discussions and forums are also sources of input that can help along the way though I would say that open discussions, along with private forums, have similar lifelines…….at some point they no longer have truly open discussions. Not complaining, just what I see. The nature of groups being what they are, at some point someone or some grouping of individuals become the experts and drown out much of the free discussion with the same folks asking then answering the questions.

In the end it is each of us who is responsible for ourselves, for figuring out who we can trust along with giving respect where it is earned and returned.

[Lorel Latorilla]

I thought it was fairly clear you weren't speaking against loyalty. You spoke of a problem things like loyalty tend to produce. I like what you've described, but for me it has nothing to do with my experiences in martial arts...I simply haven't been around that block enough for it to be an issue for me. I grew up wrestling with this idea and over time came to a very lonely position in life simply because I was more loyal to the concept of truth than I was to any person...and I still am, really. The best of people do the worst of things. I try to be loyal to virtue and to people who demonstrate a degree of reliability for sincerity in that regard. "Mutual respect" is a great phrase for this. Of course there is a natural hierarchy for the dissemination of knowledge, and it's important to respect that. The problem comes when two people disagree on which direction that flow ought go (or forget there can be multiple flows), and either both seek to impose their view on the other, or one acquiesces (or they disengage from each other comepletely).
As usual, I don't feel like I'm contributing in a very organized way, so I guess I'll stop for now. This topic brings up so many ideas for me it's hard to pick from them and make something cohesive come about. Good food for thought at the least, so thank you for that!
Take care,
Matt

Yeah, I'm all for loyalty. The instance where one is entrusted and made to promise to preserve cultural traditions (nevertheless traditions that are not made to impede individual progress but ones that are used as a pedagogical paradigms to ensure progress) is a form of loyalty that I can respect.

The kind of loyalty that I think is also good is one where you are loyal to the community of like-minded people. That is, you're not doing this for your own skills but you're out to help those in the community as well, and also help the leader of the community, a person who is most likely having trouble disseminating the skills he knows to the students he teaches. Once you're in this, it is difficult for you to make 'Faustian bargains'--you are less tempted to compromise your moral integrity for whatever knowledge/skill you pursue because you are committed to community. But the baseline for that commitment is trust and friendship and all that, so those who think that the pursue of knowledge is mutually exclusive with friendships/trust/single-minded in pursuit and that seeking both in martial arts is worthless is missing the benefits of communal learning.

As far as being loyal to truth (in martial arts at least), I think that's a deeper topic that's worth pursuing in another thread.

To bring up another thread from my OP:

They say, when you are ready to be a student, then the teacher will appear. That is, when you know what to look for, you know know what questions to ask, and the teacher (whoever and whatever that may be) will have answers fr you. If you do not know what you are looking for, you cannot be a student, and therefore you will not find your teacher. You don't know what to ask, the answers cannot be given to you.

[Tin Tran]

The louder someone talk about honor and integrity, the faster I count my silverwares. Or something like that ;)

Tin

[Lorel Latorilla]

Who are these strange people that come out of the woodwork? Why does he make negative comments? Is he associated with some power-hungry, fascist teachers? Did I hurt his feelings after raising this issue?

[thisisnotreal]

Really interesting thread Lorel. Insightful deliberations. Thank you for sharing.
I'm not sure exactly what you had in mind; so some of this may be off topic; but your ideas made me think of these things..

To bring up another thread from my OP:

They say, when you are ready to be a student, then the teacher will appear. That is, when you know what to look for, you know know what questions to ask, and the teacher (whoever and whatever that may be) will have answers fr you. If you do not know what you are looking for, you cannot be a student, and therefore you will not find your teacher. You don't know what to ask, the answers cannot be given to you.

On the one hand this is an insightful comment on the nature of the condition of being ready to learn; but on the other; I think it can imply that a certain type, will see and divide a 'handle' with which to grab and capture the heart of the sincere seeker. i.e. "When you know what you want to hear; someone will appear to tell you that very thing." I'm sure...this happens everywhere that there is a search for something...as you indicated. Personally I find - It is a tough thing to stay truly open and at the same time stay vigilant. ... I can see why some people become cranky old bastards who don't listen and can't hear a damn thing.

A few other thoughts (M 2 C)...
-In this life, AFAIK, the sharks and snakes will always be there. Hence the old saying to be as wise as the serpent but as harmless as the doves. (That said the doves can and do poop on people's heads from time to time).
-Eventually the true nature comes to the surface; but unfortunately sometimes it is too late. There is a saying; 'whatever is in your heart will determine what you say.'. It will come out. Eventually. Did you see "There Will be Blood"? Good movie. Just like that.
-Helping other weaker people is good. And threads like these reminding others that trickery and cunning are to dealt with..... reminds others to help where they can. I think most do, most of the time when they can.
-Silence can be interpreted in many ways. When someone is silent....in that Silence, the listener can confer the wisdom of the sage...or whatever else it is we tend to want to hear. A specific example; and in the context of, say westerners immersed in eastern martial arts, (where they don't speak the native language. Is that most of us?); if a teacher plays quiet or the role of the warrior sage; or just simply say little, or speak in circles, or deceit.... it is wise to be take stock of what is actually said, and perhaps even more importantly, what goes unsaid.

For instance; while, yes, there is the concept of the 2 digit IQ test (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=168410&postcount=27), it is another thing entirely for the type of politicking, power lording and fiefdom building, sniping, dishonesty, ruses, flow-chart bait and switch discussion, etc. that you mention.
-Acknowledging reality. The bullshit we are discussing ... is practiced. In the MA, any tactical endeavor, and adversaries in life, for that matter, we are instructed not to 'play the other guys` game'..but don't' be mistaken...this type of deception you talk about ... -is- the other guys` game...and, in many cases, it is just a game too. What to do? I think Dan and you nailed it up there.
-obfuscation. In Intel circles there is the concept of 'muddying the waters'. The best place to hide the counterfeit is right next to the original. That only works if you're not sure exactly what you're looking for. It is BS; but again; effective if you want to play that game... .and keep others off target. and in the dark, and to lord the information as power. blah blah blah.

In one way; yes; shame on you for being fooled (i.e. life is hard) but on the other hand; it is hard to swim with a guys foot on your head. yeah. I guess, all in all, this is a case, of sink or swim.
and to know, in life... sharks are patrolling these waters. (http://www.discogs.com/Various-Sharks-Patrol-These-Waters-The-Best-Of-Volume-Part-2/release/590105)

Knowing is half the battle.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2562/3770972018_c50c1364d4.jpg

note: The other half involves guns.
--
Last thought:
"Establish virtue and honor as your guiding principles and your will and purpose will be bound as metal to stone".
I think the best go this way.

[Thomas Campbell]

"Establish virtue and honor as your guiding principles and your will and purpose will be bound as metal to stone".

I think the best go this way.

I thought the source was this guy

http://www.infiniteunknown.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/george-patton_flag.jpg

but it actually is

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_HbDXyiSofCg/RyuBo4TpFpI/AAAAAAAAAD8/GKVnVjfJxLM/s200/wang+form.jpg

[Tin Tran]

Who are these strange people that come out of the woodwork? Why does he make negative comments? Is he associated with some power-hungry, fascist teachers? Did I hurt his feelings after raising this issue?

“Strange”? “Power-hungry, fascist teachers”? “Hurt feelings”? “Issue”? Ha ha ha ha!

Nah, I have no use for passive aggressive doublespeak. If you want to name names, then name them.

Tin

[Thomas Campbell]

If you want to name names, then name them.

Tin

George Patton (played by George C. Scott). Wang Shujin.

;)

[Lorel Latorilla]

"Strange"? "Power-hungry, fascist teachers"? "Hurt feelings"? "Issue"? Ha ha ha ha!

Nah, I have no use for passive aggressive doublespeak. If you want to name names, then name them.

Tin

?

Like I said, people, who is this guy? I don't know him. Can anyone give me information about this guy? Also, I find it interesting that he's accusing me of passive-aggressive double-speak when his first reply was basically passive-aggressive. Can anyone tell me about this guy?

Tom?

Oh and Josh I'll reply to you later. Gonna catch some zzz's now.

[C. David Henderson]

?

I find it interesting that he's accusing me of passive-aggressive double-speak when his first reply was basically passive-aggressive.


My perception also. And thus, the second also.

[Mike Sigman]

My perception also. And thus, the second also.Probably depends on whether Lorel was taking a veiled swipe at anyone with the whole thread. Whaddya think? :straightf

Mike

[Tin Tran]

[QUOTE=Lorel Latorilla;271772Also, I find it interesting that he's accusing me of passive-aggressive double-speak when his first reply was basically passive-aggressive. [/QUOTE]

Well, I thought that paraphrase from Emerson was pretty aggressive myself- there wasn't any doubt about the general points I was addressing :) I mean, you got it right away, right? If you didn't, then I might have given you too much credit for all those big words you were throwing around ;)

Tin

[Lorel Latorilla]

To reply to what a particular gentleman wrote:

Veiled swipe, sure, and it was mainly a swipe towards myself (hence the note to self in the beginning). I too could be tempted to go that route when I have knowledge. I don't want to be a nasty, snakish, fascist teacher that wants to hold the keys to knowledge. I want to be generous with my knowledge. And since this world is full of snakes (not just in the field of martial arts), I have to be very vigilant about who I associate with.

I wrote it originally for myself, but I also wrote it for those who may not be aware that snake in the grass are not myths and exist as men who may appear to mean well but are slithering and sliding towards a snakey goal, poisoning anyone with venom who stands in the way, and also that there is such thing as a Faustian bargain involved in the pursuit of knowledge, and to make them aware that they do not need to partake in this Faustian bargain and that you can pursue knowledge, even as you pursue a path of righteousness. I also wrote to help people be aware that they too can fall and become a snake teacher when they possess the knowledge. The ones saw that that was my intent of my writing, were grateful for the awareness that I brought them.

Lastly, if what I wrote offends people out there--what have they got to be offended about besides the fact that they could possibly be that snake teacher or that they are the ones deceived by the snake teacher? I only intend to write truth. And sometimes truth will pierce like a sword, but it can also be comforting and encouraging to those that don't want to venture to the 'dark side'. In other words, if you're not a snakey teacher that tries to make sycophants out of students, then we can get along and enjoy ourselves on the pursuit of knowledge (of varying degrees of course). If you're not that snake or the snake charmer, then there is no need to feel offense. If you're not a snake (or a snake charmer), take the post for what it is (a deliberation of transmission of knowledge) and prepare yourself so you don't become a snake or be bitten by a snake.

[Mike Sigman]

I only intend to write truth. :D

[Lorel Latorilla]

Well, I thought that paraphrase from Emerson was pretty aggressive myself- there wasn't any doubt about the general points I was addressing :) I mean, you got it right away, right? If you didn't, then I might have given you too much credit for all those big words you were throwing around ;)

Tin

Who is this strange strange man that keeps antagonizing me yet fails to analyze what I just posted? Doesn't he also understand that paraphrasing an unclear statement (I knew he really meant to say "dude you know nothing about integrity and honor so shut up") originally made by a famous author and ending it with a winky emoticon is a form of passive-aggressiveness? Also, I use big words, but that has no relation to how I understood the gentleman's paraphrase of Emerson's statement since this strange man obviously knows about Emerson but messed up on his verb conjugations and his pluralization.

[Lorel Latorilla]

BTW Josh, I really like your post and also find it very insightful. I'm contemplating on whether to send you a private message or not. I didn't end up sleeping. I'm busy writing a rap in Japanese LOL.

[C. David Henderson]

Probably depends on whether Lorel was taking a veiled swipe at anyone with the whole thread. Whaddya think? :straightf

Mike

1. I perceived this thread to be a veiled swipe, or something very close to it.

2. My perception was somewhat confirmed by the first response to your post.

3. That doesn't really affect the perception I had about Mr.
Tran's post, at a minimum under the theory that two wrongs seldom make a right.

4. As with another recent thread around here, I am troubled that this thread does not expressly own its antecedents.

5. Personalities and past conflicts aside, I believe "a certain gentleman" was misperceived in the exchanges leading up to this thread, correctly or incorrectly on my part.

:straightf

Take care; train well.

[mathewjgano]

...those who think that the pursue of knowledge is mutually exclusive with friendships/trust/single-minded in pursuit and that seeking both in martial arts is worthless is missing the benefits of communal learning.

As far as being loyal to truth (in martial arts at least), I think that's a deeper topic that's worth pursuing in another thread.

I essentially agree with the first paragraph here, but disagree with the second. I suppose we could treat the idea itself more fully in another thread, but I think it is central to anyone seeking authentic (truth-based) knowledge. I would also argue it's central to people who are interested in finding quality friendships with which to pursue said knowledge. One must be dedicated to both, in my opinion. My sense of good friendships is that they're based on trust which should itself be based on honesty, something which is rooted in truth. The problem with so many friendships is that they aren't concerned with truth/honesty nearly so much as making one feel good about themselves...which I think we can all agree is not a reliable basis for learning new things. Self-delusion is very often supported by so-called friends who tell you what you want to hear instead of something more honest. Hence, we see groups of people who excuse the BS of their own group for the sake of their friendships, while decrying the other group for doing essentially the same.
...Of course, this perception is based on my own experiences growing up. I've never had a problem getting along with different groups of people but I regularly saw those different groups of people bicker and fight with each other and the above happened all too readily. Because of how easily it seemed to happen, I assume most people operate this way.

[mathewjgano]

...the point of which being that without dedication/loyalty to the truth above all else, extraneous BS creeps in and you see distractions (like inter/intra-organizational politics) getting in the way of the good stuff.

[Tin Tran]

I knew he really meant to say "dude you know nothing about integrity and honor so shut up"

Nah, you don't know that. And I don't want you to shut up - the "discourse" has been revealing. To take you at your own words, if you have to take a veiled swipe at yourself, how intellectually honest can you be? So even if you "only intend to write truth," one should not eat rice from a dirty vessel (to paraphrase another famous person.)

Btw, very kind of you not to point out my incorrect usage of the quote function in my last post :D

Tin

[Lorel Latorilla]

Before I reply to your post Josh. I have to reply in kind to some of the comments a strange man made. He is forming some kind of complicated interpretation of what I wrote.

First of all, the article is based on reflections on how I believe I should move in a world full of people offering Faustian bargains. In martial arts, I am first and foremost a student, and not even close to being a teacher. But there are such things as Faustian bargains and snake teachers and I have to know how to deal with them. It is also possible that I may become a teacher and can potentially become a snake as well. Awareness of that is kind of a 'swipe' at myself, one that I hope will help me not become that snake.

Also, the reason why I do not name names is because, well, who knows what a teacher is about? Who knows what his ulterior motives are? All I know is, that there are people that try to control the dialogue of the conversation and do so to curry favor from the opponent. If the opponent does not agree with the terms or feels that there should be more room for discussing the terms, then the opponent is immediately silenced. Of course people can see through the bu****** of the silencer, but the silencer has leverage because he is recognized to possess the knowledge. All of this is symptomatic of an individual desiring to take, using his knowledge as leverage, some kind of standing in his field of expertise. To a person like this, things like loyalty (unless it is due to him), friendship, trust, etc. have no values. An unseen pressure is due to his would be sycophants, and they are often pressured to compromise such things. That's why dealing with this these kind of people will ultimately turn out to be a Faustian bargain.

If people are offended by my original post, like I said, that's the truth hitting them. If they show the symptoms above but believe they are doing it for the good of all knowledge seekers, I would love to hear an explanation from them. If the snake thing does not speak to you, then good for you! "Knowledge is power" will be a good warning for you.

[Alfonso]

Hi Lorel, I remember you. You joined the Qijin forum for a while. You had access to Tin Tran's posts, his picture and his good will. I remember you had issues that made you upset. Why do you pretend you don't know who Tin is?

In any case you're just coming across as an angry young man. I think you're also causing embarassment to some folks who have helped you out in the past (not Qijin forum).

not sure why I bother to say this; but take it easy. It's not as bad as you make it to be.

[C. David Henderson]

Rabbit

Oh my ears and whiskers, how late it's getting!

Alice

Curiouser and curiouser!



Damn bunnies.

[Lorel Latorilla]

Really interesting thread Lorel. Insightful deliberations. Thank you for sharing.
I'm not sure exactly what you had in mind; so some of this may be off topic; but your ideas made me think of these things..

On the one hand this is an insightful comment on the nature of the condition of being ready to learn; but on the other; I think it can imply that a certain type, will see and divide a 'handle' with which to grab and capture the heart of the sincere seeker. i.e. "When you know what you want to hear; someone will appear to tell you that very thing." I'm sure...this happens everywhere that there is a search for something...as you indicated. Personally I find - It is a tough thing to stay truly open and at the same time stay vigilant. ... I can see why some people become cranky old bastards who don't listen and can't hear a damn thing.

A few other thoughts (M 2 C)...
-In this life, AFAIK, the sharks and snakes will always be there. Hence the old saying to be as wise as the serpent but as harmless as the doves. (That said the doves can and do poop on people's heads from time to time).
-Eventually the true nature comes to the surface; but unfortunately sometimes it is too late. There is a saying; 'whatever is in your heart will determine what you say.'. It will come out. Eventually. Did you see "There Will be Blood"? Good movie. Just like that.
-Helping other weaker people is good. And threads like these reminding others that trickery and cunning are to dealt with..... reminds others to help where they can. I think most do, most of the time when they can.
-Silence can be interpreted in many ways. When someone is silent....in that Silence, the listener can confer the wisdom of the sage...or whatever else it is we tend to want to hear. A specific example; and in the context of, say westerners immersed in eastern martial arts, (where they don't speak the native language. Is that most of us?); if a teacher plays quiet or the role of the warrior sage; or just simply say little, or speak in circles, or deceit.... it is wise to be take stock of what is actually said, and perhaps even more importantly, what goes unsaid.

For instance; while, yes, there is the concept of the 2 digit IQ test (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=168410&postcount=27), it is another thing entirely for the type of politicking, power lording and fiefdom building, sniping, dishonesty, ruses, flow-chart bait and switch discussion, etc. that you mention.
-Acknowledging reality. The bullshit we are discussing ... is practiced. In the MA, any tactical endeavor, and adversaries in life, for that matter, we are instructed not to 'play the other guys` game'..but don't' be mistaken...this type of deception you talk about ... -is- the other guys` game...and, in many cases, it is just a game too. What to do? I think Dan and you nailed it up there.
-obfuscation. In Intel circles there is the concept of 'muddying the waters'. The best place to hide the counterfeit is right next to the original. That only works if you're not sure exactly what you're looking for. It is BS; but again; effective if you want to play that game... .and keep others off target. and in the dark, and to lord the information as power. blah blah blah.

In one way; yes; shame on you for being fooled (i.e. life is hard) but on the other hand; it is hard to swim with a guys foot on your head. yeah. I guess, all in all, this is a case, of sink or swim.
and to know, in life... sharks are patrolling these waters. (http://www.discogs.com/Various-Sharks-Patrol-These-Waters-The-Best-Of-Volume-Part-2/release/590105)

Knowing is half the battle.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2562/3770972018_c50c1364d4.jpg

note: The other half involves guns.
--
Last thought:
"Establish virtue and honor as your guiding principles and your will and purpose will be bound as metal to stone".
I think the best go this way.

1) "Someone will appear to tell you the thing you want to hear" That may be true. I'm trying to sustain and keep building my community of 'martial artists', and that includes both teachers and brilliant students. It is within this 'ecosystem' that someone will say the thing I want to hear. Maybe I'm cynical and will never find that quiet small old man who will teach me the s3kr3te sk1llz of the th3 36 ch4mb3rz.

2) Wise as a snake, innocent as a dove. The man who originally forewarned us is quite a brilliant man.

3) Yes awareness is good. This is one among many. There are many myths that serve as warnings to us, one them being the Promethean myth which serves as an allegory for the pursuit of knowledge.

4) I don't take stock in 'mystic sage sayings'. It might be blasphemous to say but the dokas of Ueshiba just seemed like nonsense to me. Maybe the Japanese is too cryptic for me but...uh yeah. You won't find any secrets there I think. People have tried, I guessed, but came up short with the bodyskills.

5) I think being vigilant and aware that there are real evil people out there who will betray you and try to manipulate to do things is a key skill in the martial arts. I believe that if you are prone to compromise, you will never make it in real life. Bujutsu goes beyond learning a few cool things with your body (although I think all things is based on the ideal skill of 'pure movement' or taijutsu)--it's all encompassing. I don't say that to be cool because if you go to the Philippines with this 'bujutsu' attitude thinking you can do cool sh** with your body, when a small dude with no bodyskill training can just come up to you and shank you where it counts. That is real 'bujutsu'. Yeah shanking someone might not be ideal and I don't recommend, but that guy had a more 'bujutsu' mindset that the one shanked. The shanker decided not to play the "Oh i got serious bodyskilzzz" game and came out 'victorious'. Preparing for that kind of confrontation takes a lot of awareness skills, and that stuff can be trained now as a skillset that can be subsumed under 'bujutsu'. So in some sense, I am practising 'bujutsu' :p.

[Lorel Latorilla]

Hi Lorel, I remember you. You joined the Qijin forum for a while. You had access to Tin Tran's posts, his picture and his good will. I remember you had issues that made you upset. Why do you pretend you don't know who Tin is?

In any case you're just coming across as an angry young man. I think you're also causing embarassment to some folks who have helped you out in the past (not Qijin forum).

not sure why I bother to say this; but take it easy. It's not as bad as you make it to be.

Literally a few days ago, I didn't know there was a guy in the world named Tin Tran. Some people now have private messaged me and told me who he is. And what embarassment? Can you point out anything that might have been embarassing to you? Also, who are you? Where are these people coming from?

[Alfonso]

Well, I'm not going to hand out any more info than is already available with a *little* effort to someone who is practicing sneaking up and shanking.

In any case for the record; I am in Hufflepuff not Slytherin

[Lorel Latorilla]

Well, I'm not going to hand out any more info than is already available with a *little* effort to someone who is practicing sneaking up and shanking.

In any case for the record; I am in Hufflepuff not Slytherin

Call it what it is, Alfonso, it is a reflection, a deliberation. If anyone wants to be offended, they have the right to be. And if I am practising 'sneaking up and shanking', then other people are as well, not just to me, my friends, but to other people as well. But I won't get into that.

I also don't get your joke.

[mathewjgano]

5) I think being vigilant and aware that there are real evil people out there who will betray you and try to manipulate to do things is a key skill in the martial arts. I believe that if you are prone to compromise, you will never make it in real life.
I think most people are aware of the concept of "evil" people betraying them and manipulating them. The most dangerous people are the ones we let our guard down on: friendly-looking types (e.g. teachers and other students we respect, etc.). I think this ties in with the previously mentioned balance between being guarded and vigilant, which can be hard.
I also think compromise is like anything else. People who are prone to it are no better off than people who are prone against it. Just as people who are prone to compromise are probably prone to being taken advantage of, people who are prone in the opposite aren't treated as if they cannot be worked with. I'm prone to compromise, but I learned early that compromise for its own sake is foolish, just as I already believed being uncompromising for its own sake is just being stubborn. The question we have to ask ourselves is to what purpose our behavior is aimed...and I think it has to fit the situation more than fit some abstract ideal.

[C. David Henderson]

If you are afraid to compromise, IMO, because you perceive the world to be full of evil people ready to take advantage of you, you've also created an opening with which an "evil" person also may manipulate you, e.g., by forcing you to take foolish stands.

In the "real world" adults are expected to compromise. Choose your battles, I say.

This a general point, BTW -- not aimed at anyone in particular.

[thisisnotreal]

it's got to be 'willow branch' strength and not ceramic brittle.
But there is some limits beyond which you should not bend, and I took that as the message.

[mathewjgano]

I think this ties in with the previously mentioned balance between being guarded and vigilant...

Oops...meant, "between being guarded and open..."

But there is some limits beyond which you should not bend, and I took that as the message.
I agree, but I think it's important to point out the balance. I believe, in this day and age, people tend to view compromise as weakness...much like many people view being a "nice guy" as being weakness. The somewhat common perception I have been confronted with in life is that you have to be an asshole to be taken seriously or to get things done. This is an excuse for a lot of people to be, frankly, real meanies to each other.
...sorry, got carried away at the end there. :p

[Keith Larman]

Well... If you've been around long enough the same old stuff just keeps repeating just with different themes attached. This teacher breaks from that group. This group goes a different direction. Those guys point and laugh at that other group doing different stuff because they can't see past the differences to the commonalities. And then people just talk past each other using words in slightly different ways oblivious to the fact that they're more alike than different. Eternal recurrence. :) Once you're around long enough hopefully you learn to see it, poke at it a bit, try things, but eventually it becomes apparent where things are and where they are going. So you hopefully have the 'wherewithal' to move on and keep moving forward. Guys appear, disappear, reappear under new guises, then vanish again. In the end, however, there are those who train, go to seminars, try things with as much an open mind and empty cup as possible, and life goes on. New things become the big deal. Some become complete fanatics -- totally focused on one thing at the exclusion of everything else. Sometimes those things turn out to be important, but never to the total exclusion of the larger picture. So some fade away over time and you never see them again. Maybe they're in the corner working on their major big thing. Or the next one. No doubt some of these things are important. Maybe even critical. So the insightful person keeps going, trying to stay focused, trying to stay authentic. Paying attention, always critical. And hopefully self-critical.

So much of the transient silliness of individuals really doesn't matter in the end because their behavior is irrelevant to my journey. What does matter to me is that I keep going, keep emptying that cup, keep trying...

In the end there are those few who just keep showing up. The same guys I keep seeing year after year at whatever seminar or event is put on. Still training. Still trying on the new clothes. And still learning.

It's the process, neh? And all the talk doesn't really matter unless you show up.

"... nothing to get hung about..."

Back to my cave for me... Carry on. That's as deep as I get today.

[Erick Mead]

Call it what it is, Alfonso, it is a reflection, a deliberation. If anyone wants to be offended, they have the right to be. And if I am practising 'sneaking up and shanking', then other people are as well, not just to me, my friends, but to other people as well. But I won't get into that.

I also don't get your joke. The joke refers to the Harry Potter world, and the "houses" in the Hogwarts School. In order with their associated faults and qualities: Hufflepuffs are blinkeredly Loyal. Griffindors are dangerously Brave. Slytherins are devilishly Cunning. And Ravenclaws are annoyingly Clever.

Kevin, our mutual acquaintance, is surely a Griffindor.

Roughly it tracks the Classical personality traits : in the same order: Sanguine. Choleric. Phelgmatic. Melancholic.

And by which obscure reference alone makes me a Ravenclaw, I suppose.;)

On your larger point you dwell on issues which I think you will find addressed by Rene Girard (http://www.imitatio.org/mimetic-theory/account-of-mimetic-theory.html) in a very deep and useful way. To what end I cannot say, but it may help you. The themes you touch are are his themes also. I find it powerful, useful and layered beyond what I though was possible.

[Lorel Latorilla]

BTW,

Just to let anyone and everyone know here. I do not represent Aunkai and my views are not representative of Akuzawa's ideas on anything. I am also engaged in other martial arts.

[Lorel Latorilla]

Yeah, I'm all for loyalty. The instance where one is entrusted and made to promise to preserve cultural traditions (nevertheless traditions that are not made to impede individual progress but ones that are used as a pedagogical paradigms to ensure progress) is a form of loyalty that I can respect.

The kind of loyalty that I think is also good is one where you are loyal to the community of like-minded people. That is, you're not doing this for your own skills but you're out to help those in the community as well, and also help the leader of the community, a person who is most likely having trouble disseminating the skills he knows to the students he teaches. Once you're in this, it is difficult for you to make 'Faustian bargains'--you are less tempted to compromise your moral integrity for whatever knowledge/skill you pursue because you are committed to community. But the baseline for that commitment is trust and friendship and all that, so those who think that the pursue of knowledge is mutually exclusive with friendships/trust/single-minded in pursuit and that seeking both in martial arts is worthless is missing the benefits of communal learning.

As far as being loyal to truth (in martial arts at least), I think that's a deeper topic that's worth pursuing in another thread.

To bring up another thread from my OP:

They say, when you are ready to be a student, then the teacher will appear. That is, when you know what to look for, you know know what questions to ask, and the teacher (whoever and whatever that may be) will have answers fr you. If you do not know what you are looking for, you cannot be a student, and therefore you will not find your teacher. You don't know what to ask, the answers cannot be given to you.

Also, I wanted to make clear that there doesn't need to be a 'leader' for this community. And you can call 'community' friends who are in single-minded pursuit after particular skills. In fact, most of the times there is no 'leader' for where there is a leader, there is a built-up ideology. I'm thinking 'community' precludes 'ideologies'.

[Peter Goldsbury]

Back to my cave for me... Carry on. That's as deep as I get today.

Hello Keith,

You mean Plato's cave? if so, I think it is quite relevant to this discussion, which is all about the search for knowledge and the rhetoric framework within which this knowledge is offered.

Happy New Year!

PAG

[Keith Larman]

Hello Keith,

You mean Plato's cave?

Who, me? :D

Yeah, you got me...

if so, I think it is quite relevant to this discussion, which is all about the search for knowledge and the rhetoric framework within which this knowledge is offered.

Absolutely. :)

And once you've seen the forms themselves, gazing at the walls of the cave simply won't do. Nor will you be all that welcome by the rest of those in the cave.

I also think Popper's observation that Plato's philosophy was encouraging totalitarianism is also of relevance to themes and dynamics touched on by this thread.

Happy New Year to you as well!

[Erick Mead]

Hello Keith,

You mean Plato's cave? if so, I think it is quite relevant to this discussion, which is all about the search for knowledge and the rhetoric framework within which this knowledge is offered.

Happy New Year!

PAGIf it is Keith's cave, it cannot be Plato's cave -- but that raises a whole 'nother subject of the nature of ownership and exclusive possession .... Maybe it's a condo cave ...

I also suspect Keith's cave has better accommodations, and likely, better beer ... :D

[Keith Larman]

It's a really, really big cave...

[Mike Sigman]

It's a really, really big cave...Cave quid dicis, quando, et cui.

M.

[Lorel Latorilla]

Who, me? :D

Yeah, you got me...

Absolutely. :)

And once you've seen the forms themselves, gazing at the walls of the cave simply won't do. Nor will you be all that welcome by the rest of those in the cave.

I also think Popper's observation that Plato's philosophy was encouraging totalitarianism is also of relevance to themes and dynamics touched on by this thread.

Happy New Year to you as well!

Hi Keith,

Can you offer your observations on this?

[DH]

Cave quid dicis, quando, et cui.

M.
Quod erat demonstrandum.

[mathewjgano]

Dead language my ass.

[Mike Sigman]

Quod erat demonstrandum.

Te audire no possum. Musa sapientum fixa est in aure.

[Keith Larman]

Big topic trying to cover Plato and how it might relate. I've got a ton to get done today while the kid is at school (need to finish a polish to get paid so I can keep sending the kid to school so I can work to polish to finish a sword to pay for the house so I have a place to work and polish and ... Hmmm, I'd like to introduce you to my friend Sisyphus...). Anyway, I need to think about this for a while as I've recently started rereading Plato finding my understanding has changed.

But... I'll work on a response as I work. Kind of a large topic.

And Dr. Goldsbury is probably much more qualified to answer... However, I think I'd rather he spend his time on TIE instead. :)

[Keith Larman]

Oh, and to join in on the latin fest...

"Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipisicing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua. Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco laboris nisi ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis aute irure dolor in reprehenderit in voluptate velit esse cillum dolore eu fugiat nulla pariatur. Excepteur sint occaecat cupidatat non proident, sunt in culpa qui officia deserunt mollit anim id est laborum."

Yeah, back when I worked in research I spent a lot of time working with a print house.

[Alfonso]

Erick, you read to much into my comment; but I appreciate the sentiment. All the snake imagery got me going,

In any case , it's good to know some phrases just in case you need to explain the next day

iliya pashu ina reshiya bashu

[phitruong]

hey, quit with latin mumbo jumbo! you are messing with my man-cave. personally, i don't think plato is worth studying. his man-cave didn't include drinking, womanizing, carousing, and creating public nuisances. besides, we are talking about those annoying folks who mess with the transmission of knowledge, and you know you who you are (not me of course). :D

btw, tin, i want my silver spoon back. you know how hard it is to setup dinner for 4 with only 3 spoons? the spork isn't working. :)

[Thomas Campbell]

Te audire no possum. Musa sapientum fixa est in aure.

http://etc.usf.edu/clipart/22000/22027/monkeys_22027_md.gif

看不出有什么邪恶
说话无恶
没有人恶

[Tin Tran]

btw, tin, i want my silver spoon back. you know how hard it is to setup dinner for 4 with only 3 spoons? the spork isn't working. :)

Hi Phi-

I think someone "swiped" your account. The Phi I know can't count that high :D

See you later this month?

Tin

[Erick Mead]

Cave quid dicis, quando, et cui.

M.
"...et censeo, Carthago delenda est."

[Erick Mead]

Te audire no possum. Musa sapientum fixa est in aure. That's not true -- I once saw an Audi hit a possum. It was gonna be "fixa'd" a lot sooner than the one that hit the moosa.

[Howard Popkin]

Dominus vobiscum nabisco. Espiritu sanctum. De gustibus. - Me gustibus. You gustibus. We missed the bus. They missed the bus. Summa cum laude. Magna cum laude. The radio's too laude. Adeste fidelis. Centra fidelis. High fidelis Post meridian. Ante meridian. Uncle meridian. All of the little meridians.Magna carta. Master charga.

Anyone ?

[Keith Larman]

Dominus vobiscum nabisco. Espiritu sanctum. De gustibus. - Me gustibus. You gustibus. We missed the bus. They missed the bus. Summa cum laude. Magna cum laude. The radio's too laude. Adeste fidelis. Centra fidelis. High fidelis Post meridian. Ante meridian. Uncle meridian. All of the little meridians.Magna carta. Master charga.

Anyone ?

"Any last words, Johnny?"

I loved that movie... Just watched it again a few weeks ago.

[Janet Rosen]

I can play dominos better than you can.....

[Budd]

Is-ay ead-thray ot-gay upid-stay ast-fay.

Which isn't necessarily a complaint.

[Howard Popkin]

"Any last words, Johnny?"

I loved that movie... Just watched it again a few weeks ago.

I knew I liked you for a reason :)

[Keith Larman]

I knew I liked you for a reason :)

Even made my 10-year-old daughter watch it. She was kinda bored at first but quickly caught on.

I also have to admit I had a crush on Marilu Henner when I was a teenager...

"You shouldn't grab me, Johnny. My mother grabbed me once... ONCE!"