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joff
05-21-2002, 12:28 AM
When I visited one aikido page I read that gi was originally underwear I got thinking why woman wear brassiere under they gi. The same applies to men. Why we wear underwear wehen we already wear it?

Olivier Uyttenh
05-21-2002, 02:34 AM
Some of the aikidoka's in our club don't wear anything besides their gi (and hakama). Even my sensei says that he likes it better without underwear..

When I get my hakama I think I'll give it a try without my underwear:D .

Jorx
05-21-2002, 02:36 AM
Yup they should - because they don't wear anything ON it. Real womens uhm... overwear? kimono is quite uncomfortable to train with as far as I know it... and it's hot in there. Of course I'm no lady so I don't get to decide:P

I wonder weather in Japan they did/do that...

Jorgen

Edward
05-21-2002, 02:40 AM
Well, hmm, there is one lady yudansha at our dojo who sometimes forgets to wear a t-shirt under the gi. She spends most of her time trying to arrange her gi after every ukemi. I never could find out whether she wears a bra or not.....

Jorx
05-21-2002, 02:40 AM
But now as I see that you go to the same dojo with me I've could've told you that in person:)

Welcome to the forums and don't forget to reade the "quote of the day" from the main page...

Jorgen

shihonage
05-21-2002, 04:23 AM
This is not the thread you're looking for.
Move along...

Tim Griffiths
05-21-2002, 06:44 AM
I recently made the switch to not wearing underwear (a midday class that I constantly forgot to bring a change of underwear to). It does feel nicer (it's that silk gi thing again).

As for bras etc. The vote around here seems to be sports bra for the bigger ladies (and then no need for a T-shirt), or T-shirt and no bra for the more 'petite' ladies. Back in the UK people tended to wear normal bras or nothing (at least in my local class).

Many years ago in England I knew a couple of lasses in a judo class who didn't wear anything under their gi's. They both had a special move with men - they would tussle, and wait for the men to look down as their gi opened, then BAM!. Not easy to keep centre...:)

Tim

warriorwoman
05-21-2002, 06:53 AM
At the dojo where I train men as well as women wear a round-neck T-shirt under their gi tops, but then it's not an aikidojo. The more "endowed" one is (male or female) perhaps the more necessity for underwear designed to provide the needed support.

Since hakama are outerwear, there is actually knee-length underwear for use under the hakama.

While I understand that modesty is culturally defined, if one is training in a traditional Japanese martial art, I believe one should attempt to maintain an air of decorum in the dojo which dissuades the type of speculation regarding one's training partner articulated earlier in this thread. It keeps everyone's mind on the purpose for being there - training!
janet dtantirojanarat
www.warriorwoman.org

Greg Jennings
05-21-2002, 07:10 AM
I'm all for the hotter, better built ladies not wearing anything under their gi!

I, OTOH, just do not like "free balling". I take lots of breakfalls and I prefer the support when my 190 pounds comes crashing to our rather thin mat.

Best Regards,

batemanb
05-21-2002, 08:16 AM
That`s a hell of a boast Greg:blush:

:D :D :D

Greg Jennings
05-21-2002, 08:35 AM
Originally posted by batemanb
That`s a hell of a boast Greg:blush:

:D :D :D

Doh! 190 pounds total body mass, you dolt! <grin>

Embarrassed,

Simone
05-21-2002, 09:18 AM
Hi there!

Where I train, most men don't wear a t-shirt. With the women there is the group of "t-shirt wearers" and the other of "sports bra wearers" (which I belong to). As I have heard the gi is the traditional japanese MALE underwear. And imagine that wearing a kimono (as a female) you do not have much freedom of moving. I tried a seven layered kimono. I wasn't almost able to walk. So Aikidoka (male as well as female) wear male clothing.
I think that makes the difference.
When I started in Tae Kwon Do first and put my gi on for the first time, in this dojo only men (there were no advanced women) had gi's (with nothing under). So I tried this, too. And I spent most of the time adjusting my gi. Otherwise it would have been a nice technique (only working with male partners) as previously suggested.......

Since then I always wear something under my gi. And I reduced it to the min: a very comfortable sports bra. That's my philosophy.

Yours, Simone

jeda
05-21-2002, 02:11 PM
There is nothing more distracting than having a body part that shouldn't flop out, flop out. This is true for both parties involved.

Everyone should remember that and behave accordingly.

Greg Jennings
05-21-2002, 02:17 PM
Originally posted by jdalton51
There is nothing more distracting than having a body part that shouldn't flop out, flop out. This is true for both parties involved.


I guess I'm going to have to start importing water from Salt Lake City!

Not much chance of distracting any of the ladies here with what we're growing now.

Best,

Hanna B
05-21-2002, 05:06 PM
For the sports bra without a T-shirt, it's a good idea that the gi is wide enough over the hips so it covers the front well... showing your belly below the sports bra does not look right to me.

What do you think about the two ribbons that can be sewed onto the front of the gi, to keep it together? It is often supposed to be a woman's thing, but I've seen pictures of O-sensei wearing this kind of gi jacket. And Nishio Sensei, I think.

guest1234
05-21-2002, 05:56 PM
Even with ties, and my female-cut Gi top, the top tends ot pull open more than I'd want to share with others when I work out... I wear a sports bra AND a T shirt, but I'm frumpy and old, and I have enough trouble getting guys to notice my atemi coming straight for their face without adding any distractions.

Health issues aside (not only do we not want to see any body parts flop out, but all that flopping can't be good for it), this isn't a fashion show... dress seriously if you want to be taken seriously. If you have to stop to adjust something after every roll, then fix it before you get on the mat next time, too much time is being wasted adjusting.

Just one frumpy old woman opinion...

giriasis
05-21-2002, 07:11 PM
I'm well-endowed (38D) and that last thing I want while training is guys gawking at my cleavage. I practice aikido to learn aikido not to pick up guys. I'll go elsewhere for that -- where it is appropriate.

I've had one male partner, during seated kokyu, go "wow!" It happened unintentionally, and he seemed surprised as to the size of my breasts. :rolleyes: I started wearing t-shirts after that as I was already wearing the workout sports bra since I wasn't aware that people could accidently look down and see more than I would like. I don't think all women have to wear a t-shirt as long as their sport's bra appropriately covers them. My sport's bra don't so I wear a t-shirt.

The top female instructor at my dojo told me that while visiting Japan she was told by a Japanese woman to wear a plain white tee-shirt under her gi. She was told that it was not appropriate for women to wear only a sports bra, danskin like top, or bright colored tee-shirt under the gi.

I could care less whether the gi was initially "underware." I have never seen it as underware in aikido so I will wear bra and t-shirt.

PeterR
05-21-2002, 07:59 PM
Sort of an unwritten fashion statement in our dojo. Men don't wear tee-shirts. They also don't adopt the wasp look with the obi. Women are cut some slack.

Yes I've had to take a few young Japanese males aside and educate them.

As for flopping body parts, 190 lbs no, but I am very carefull about choosing proper support. Breakfalls have a habit of making slight imperfections known.

Deb Fisher
05-21-2002, 11:28 PM
Well...

Every time I've worn a standard strappy-buckly bra to the dojo I wind up with painful little bruises on my back and shoulders. Who needs tiny metal points absorbing all the impact of that fall and smooshing it directly into your flesh? Besides, my dojo can get awfully warm and my gi is hot enough without a bunchy t-shirt too.

So for issues that have little to do with decorum, I'm firmly in the sports bra camp. I haven't had to adjust myself too much and it seems that most of the other women in my dojo are happy with the sports bra or tank top.

Peace,
Deb

PeterR
05-21-2002, 11:44 PM
Originally posted by giriasis
I could care less whether the gi was initially "underware."

The Judo gi, which most of us wear, was originally invented by Kano (yes??) to approximate street clothing which was the normal practice attire. I guess too many suits were being torn. I always assumed that when you were talking about underware it was the pants portion not the upper part. So the hakama covers some modesty.

Even the pants bottom does not look like Japanese underware - it has long adapted. Just take a look at the old picis.

As I said we don't wear no hakama but then we all know that Tomiki folk are uncultured brutes. ;)

Erik
05-22-2002, 12:12 AM
Originally posted by PeterR
Sort of an unwritten fashion statement in our dojo. Men don't wear tee-shirts. They also don't adopt the wasp look with the obi. Women are cut some slack.

Wasp look? I've seen belts outside of the hakama. I've seen hakama tied to the side, in bow ties and others ways. But I've not seen the wasp look. Whazisit?

batemanb
05-22-2002, 12:12 AM
In our dojo, I have no idea whether the ladies wear a bra or not, or what type. That is really their personal preference. However, all females, regardless, wear white T-shirts under their gi top, and they also have tie straps on the front. Recently, many of the guys have been sporting these tie tops too, maybe they are secretly wearing bras underneath?:D

Speaking of the guys, many of them go "commando" under their gi trousers, whether they wear a hakama or not. Have tried it myself and it is quite liberating, quite practical too considering the amount of sweating we do in the summer here, but I tend to prefer a more packaged package, just have to ensure that you take a fresh pair to change into after otherwise you have to go home "commando":D

renfieldKuroda
05-22-2002, 12:22 AM
I don't claim to be an expert, but I've been to 4 different dojo here in Japan in Tokyo and neighboring Chiba, including the Honbu-dojo (World HQ) in Shinjuku, and without fail all women have worn a white t-shirt underneath their gi. Most also wore a sports-bra underneath that.
Most women also wore gi that tied mid-lapel and a most women above a given kyu rank wore hakama.

PeterR
05-22-2002, 12:25 AM
Originally posted by Erik
Wasp look? I've seen belts outside of the hakama. I've seen hakama tied to the side, in bow ties and others ways. But I've not seen the wasp look. Whazisit?

Seen only with young skinny teenage males and some females. Obi pulled tight against the waist rather than on the hips. Very un-macho looking.

jk
05-22-2002, 01:10 AM
My suggestion, Joff, is that you "go commando," and then perform some serious aerial breakfalls. You may, unless you do flawless breakfalls, notice some bits and pieces jingle-jangling about, accompanied by a bit of pain. I suspect this might also be the case for some women who choose not to wear sports bras. That's why I wear a leotard underneath my dogi... :D Just kidding...

Hey ren, slow work day for you too, huh? :)

Regards,

Edward
05-22-2002, 03:07 AM
Judging by the speed this thread is developing, it will surely become one of the hottest on aikiweb :cool:

joff
05-24-2002, 10:55 AM
Thank you for all these funny answers! But keep writing replies. ;)

Richard Harnack
05-24-2002, 05:20 PM
When I first started teaching in 1978, as far as I know, the sports bra had yet to be invented. Most women wore a t-shirt over their regular bras. However, when practicing Katatori techniques the straps sometimes got twisted and suddenly the woman would discover that the elegant bra she was wearing was now broken.

Presently, I do not have a stated "policy" on what to wear underneath. I assume all are on the mat to train and that they are smart enough to wear clothing that supports their various body parts.

I strongly suspect that the older of us on the mat probably are wearing more under our gi now than we did when we were younger. This is from the desire to keep most of our parts where they belong and out of pain. ;)

giriasis
05-28-2002, 06:09 PM
As far as the "wasp" look is concerned. Since when is it required that the belt be worn on the hips? I just thought it was worn on the hips because men generally wear their pants on their hips. You know sometimes the shape of some of us gals just don't allow it. And for me it would look plain weird. Anyhow, so what if it is a "wasp" look?

Until I got a bujin women's dogi top, I was tying my belt tightly. Why? because otherwise it would just open up. Now the bujin top covers me enough and has nice ties on the sides. The standard dogi just doesn't fit my shape.

It's great that some women don't have to wear a t-shirt or tank top. Although, I don't think wearing it should be a requirement. No bra, to me, is just a plain no-no. I unfortunately show off way too much cleavage otherwise. I've discovered the cheap Hanes tee-shirts are thin and lightweight enough to not be too hot. (I train in South Florida so I know hot.)

PeterR
05-28-2002, 08:45 PM
Originally posted by giriasis
As far as the "wasp" look is concerned. Since when is it required that the belt be worn on the hips? I just thought it was worn on the hips because men generally wear their pants on their hips. You know sometimes the shape of some of us gals just don't allow it. And for me it would look plain weird. Anyhow, so what if it is a "wasp" look?
Like I said when I originally mentioned it - its an unwritten fashion statement that men don't adopt the wasp look. Nothing about practicallity or finding your centre, just fashion. Half the women in my dojo have the wasp look, none of the men - it just lacks that macho look.

ranZ
05-29-2002, 02:33 PM
I'd always wear t-shirt and undershirt under the dogi.. makes it thicker but, it's so cold otherwise.
I just practiced a couple of times here in Germany and most of the guys here just wear their hakama without anything under it .. well except underwear i suppose. Aren't you suppose to wear something? .. i mean showing off your thigh isn't a nice sight while practicing.. :P

Chuck Clark
05-29-2002, 04:18 PM
Riki Kogure-sensei used to caution everyone to be careful not to step on their hakama because they might tear it and "show their heinie."

Regards,

PeterR
05-29-2002, 07:59 PM
Speaking of Riki Kogure and hakama - please see his homepage. http://www.butaman.ne.jp/~shizukat/riki/

Originally posted by Chuck Clark
Riki Kogure-sensei used to caution everyone to be careful not to step on their hakama because they might tear it and "show their heinie."

Regards,

Edward
05-29-2002, 09:42 PM
Originally posted by PeterR
Speaking of Riki Kogure and hakama - please see his homepage. http://www.butaman.ne.jp/~shizukat/riki/



What the heck is he doind with Arafat?!!!!:confused:

PeterR
05-29-2002, 09:46 PM
Not a clue - but he is what you call a politically connected businessman.

What I want to know is - how did your first Shodokan exposure go?


Originally posted by Edward


What the heck is he doind with Arafat?!!!!:confused:

auskodo
06-01-2002, 04:31 AM
Not wading into the bra thing as such,

The X-over top is called a kieko hanten, there are many forms of hanten, fishermen even wear a string one thats prevents water logging! it's not nessearily underwear, more a casual jacket.

Whe white pants are called Zubon, they are not underwear either, more peasants or children's play clothes. Here a century on from Kano's inintial teaching of Judo we forget that he expected the adults to wear hakama, zubon came later, there is some influence from the Shotokan and his friend Funikoshi on this.

Traditionaly under any clothing mawashi is worn literally a white cotton loin cloth. In Japan die-hards still wear these, even business men I'm told still go in for them. Yes it's an image!

As to women's clothing, the earliest photo's of Ueshiba's, Funokoshi's and Kano's female Japanese students show them in printed dress Kimono of the informal type. Usually of 2 or three layers. If we look at prints from the Mieji and Yedo periods showing women in training they are usualy going as a girlfriend of mine used to call it 'free range'. But thier training wasn't mixed.

Women wearing the same clothing as men in training i.e; Hanten, obi, and hakama or zubon came after WW2, it reflects more uni-sex training taking place, as wel as a desire for uniformity with male classes at the kodokan, shobukan and Shodokan as well as others. As well as a change in social attitudes.

Curiously untill the occupation public baths were unisex, apparently the these dissapeared in the 60's. I think there are only three traditional uni-sex baths in the whole of Japan today.

As a note many large Budo organizations stipulate in thier regulations that women should wear thier hakama longer and higher with the rim just under the bust line, and a (pretty) bow knot instead of a square knot.

In Japan wear a white T-shirt, if not in Japan use your own discretion, quite frankly if your naked and train seriously people will take you seriously, otherwise a three piece business suit won't do it :)

auskodo

Nick P.
06-01-2002, 10:56 AM
Not to flog a particular product, but, the BuJin jackets are AWESOME!
I (6ft, 170lbs, size 17 dress shirts, 34waist) got one from my wife last year, and that thing is cut so well it stays always stays closed. She bought one for herself (5'5'', 130?), and her stays so closed she was able to lend her belt to someone who had forgotten theirs and go a whole practice (men's & women's both have the ties on left & right hip). Models are for either men or women. They work so well what you wear underneath is a moot point because they NEVER open.

We like them so much were getting each one before our trip to Japan this July; the wicking fabric is sooooo sweet on hot days.

www.bujindesign.com

PeterR
06-02-2002, 02:49 AM
Originally posted by auskodo
Curiously untill the occupation public baths were unisex, apparently the these dissapeared in the 60's. I think there are only three traditional uni-sex baths in the whole of Japan today.
I am sure there must be more. I have been to at least three Roten Buro where there was a men's pool, a women's and a larger mixed one. Still you are right - the vast majority are segregated. Pity - what it means in my family is that the girls get to hang out and I have to bath by myself. I tend to finish way before them and since I drive - I can't even have the after bath beer (well just one).

guest1234
06-02-2002, 01:24 PM
Similar to my only experience in a public bath in Japan (outside Misawa AB, snowed in on a cross-country)...two F-4 crews and 5 Viper pilots went left, and I by myself went right. They at least had safety in numbers to not feel too foolish, while I, recognising only 'please' and 'thank you' in Japanese, did the best I could following the actions of the elderly Japanese women on my side. They didn't seem to understand English or Russian, and I was not confident enough in the Korean I had learned so far to try that, so I hope I didn't offend too many as I stumbled through what I hoped was proper behavior.

With no one to talk to, I finished early and waited for them outside. They had consumed a lot of Sopporo earlier, so they may have been making up what was on their side, but it sounded a lot more luxurious...I was so sceptical, one of the WSOs tried to pull me into the mens side to prove it, luckily wiser if no more sober minds sided with me...:eek:

Duarh
06-03-2002, 05:32 AM
Regarding upper gis with straps - actually, I use one such & love it. Even though I don't have anything to hide beneath it :cool: it is VERY useful, because I don't have to waste valuable practice time adjusting my gi & I can always feel comfortable in it. The only problem is that the gi was cheap and the straps get torn :(. But otherwise, I couldn't do without it. . .

tedward
06-04-2002, 08:18 AM
I have a practical example of why some women should wear sports bras.

Once used ikkyo to take this middle aged women to the ground before following up with groundwork (forgotten propper term sorry still learning)with one knee tucked into armpit and her arm scraped down my other knee - anyway as soon as the knee went into armpit she screamed out in pain - I had no idea why but it turned out I was sitting on her 'boob' (her term not mine).

Ever since then I advocate that women with floppy breasts should wear adequate sports bras.

I on the other hand have been sporting the wasp look with belt tied on belly button rather than just under since I dont want my gi to keep opening up.Never thought it looked unmanly but will be paranoid in double checkying my look and everyone elses next time im at the dojo.

I do also think any guy that wears a shirt under his gi (for reasons other than certain skin conditions) can be teased mercilessly.

Hanna B
06-04-2002, 08:55 AM
Originally posted by tedward
I have a practical example of why some women should wear sports bras.
:D I'm sorry, but you are still ignorant. :D Breast tissue is, and should be, soft. The only way to prevent them from being pressed out to the side when lying flat on your belly is to wear a sports bra made of stainless steal, and it doesn't have a lot to do with old and floppy.

"AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information." :)


Regards
Hanna

warriorwoman
06-04-2002, 06:48 PM
In other words, Tedward, women with real breasts should wear a sports bra. It's unfortunate that many men are duped by the breast implants they see on models in magazines and videos.

Thanks, Hanna, for pointing that out.
janet dtantirojanarat
www.warriorwoman.org

guest1234
06-04-2002, 10:14 PM
In case you are wondering "Then how do I pin them?" the answer is simple: rather than kneeling on your partner (or their breast, or their ribs, etc) kneel on the mat and slide the knee snugly against them. Pretend it would be like someone kneeling between your legs to effect a pin, you wouldn't like us just plopping down as close to your pelvic bones as we can get, never mind any squishy soft tissue that might get in the way, would you :eek: ?

I agree it is kind of a sad commentary on what we've become when artificial breasts seem 'normal' and natural breasts 'abnormal'... sigh:rolleyes:

Niadh
06-04-2002, 10:26 PM
Originally posted by ca
[B

I agree it is kind of a sad commentary on what we've become when artificial breasts seem 'normal' and natural breasts 'abnormal'... sigh:rolleyes: [/B]
Not to get off on a tangent here, but isn't this true of more in our lives now, artifical breasts, unaturally skiiny or buff people, etc. Personally I like real humans.
Sorry, just had to rant.
Niadh

tedward
06-05-2002, 03:39 AM
In other words, Tedward, women with real breasts should wear a sports bra. It's unfortunate that many men are duped by the breast implants they see on models in magazines and videos

I agree it is kind of a sad commentary on what we've become when artificial breasts seem 'normal' and natural breasts 'abnormal'... sigh [/B]

Not to get off on a tangent here, but isn't this true of more in our lives now, artifical breasts, unaturally skiiny or buff people, etc. Personally I like real humans.

duped - certainly not the difference is always obvious, and I feel I should put a word in on behalf of men (we talk about this alot) I think I can vouch for most of when I say the difference between fake and real is always obvious and that more than 95% of men prefer real to fake.

Getting back to Aikido thanks Colleen Annes for the advice I will bear that in mind the next time I practice.

Jorx
06-05-2002, 10:09 AM
Well this is driving rather off topic... but once I saw a documentary on the implant topic and the interviewer asked that how can I tell the difference between "real" and "fake" (as using terms that Tedward used) when everything has more or less "normal" size. The answerer was a (male) surgeant and expert on plastical surgerys answered that: you don't. And then added with a smile: Only with years - when it's "fake" then everything else ages, breasts do not.:D

So there's nothing to claim (we prefer blah blah) exept that we, men, are ignorant dorks who know s*#% about women.

Now I heard that in US they make abdominal muscle implants (of silicone) for men. Now THAT'S sick...

And just for the record and on topic: all the women in my dojo wear a sports bra (as far as I know because I haven't done any specific observations:rolleyes: ) I guess that's what they think is comfortable. And actually if anything runs well durig the lesson then I do not give a damn.:)

Jorgen
Estonian Aikikai
Riveta Sportsclub

Greg Jennings
06-05-2002, 10:25 AM
Originally posted by tedward
I think I can vouch for most of when I say the difference between fake and real is always obvious and that more than 95% of men prefer real to fake.

If it's always obvious, and 95% of men prefer live to memorex, then why is it such a huge industry? Why are breast implants the #1 _high school_ graduation gift?

Back on topic (sort of):

Another way to do the ikkyo type of pin is to put the inside knee into the ribs rather than the arm pit. It's my preferred way, but I often describe it as "less polite".

I like it because it gives me a better view of uke. It also gives me more options should uke become really serious about rolling out of the pin and I'm not serious enough about keeping them there to want to disclocate their elblow.

Best Regards,