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ewolput
12-30-2010, 07:22 AM
Many people are talking about randori, and most of the time it is about a one way traffic : attack and defense. Of course there are many variations. In Tomiki's way it is totally different, both "players" have the chance to use their techniques. This is the case for "toshu randori". In "tanto randori" there is the situation of attack with tanto and the defense by the unarmed person, but in some cases the tanto man also can use some counters.
Most of the players are referring to the basic kata for their techniques. Only using the "kata form" will result in most of the cases in a not effective technique. We must adapt our kata into a working instrument for randori.
How to adapt our techniques was the topic of a recent seminar in Belgium. You can see an impression at youtube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=toZFHDA_SJQ
and for the result of randori training
http://www.youtube.com/user/maillllll6#p/u/129/XNuoHpEDqlU

This randori method is of course a "sports" way of aikido, and from the point of view for a actual fight, it has many mistakes.
But at the end it is great fun and most of the people are always enjoying the "play" of randori.

Eddy Wolput
www.shobukai.be

Ryan Seznee
12-30-2010, 06:41 PM
Many people are talking about randori, and most of the time it is about a one way traffic : attack and defense. Of course there are many variations. In Tomiki's way it is totally different, both "players" have the chance to use their techniques. This is the case for "toshu randori". In "tanto randori" there is the situation of attack with tanto and the defense by the unarmed person, but in some cases the tanto man also can use some counters.
Most of the players are referring to the basic kata for their techniques. Only using the "kata form" will result in most of the cases in a not effective technique. We must adapt our kata into a working instrument for randori.
How to adapt our techniques was the topic of a recent seminar in Belgium. You can see an impression at youtube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=toZFHDA_SJQ
and for the result of randori training
http://www.youtube.com/user/maillllll6#p/u/129/XNuoHpEDqlU

This randori method is of course a "sports" way of aikido, and from the point of view for a actual fight, it has many mistakes.
But at the end it is great fun and most of the people are always enjoying the "play" of randori.

Eddy Wolput
www.shobukai.be

Why do the "players" ignore the padded knife after the first thrust? Is this good by your standards?

RED
12-30-2010, 06:42 PM
Many people are talking about randori, and most of the time it is about a one way traffic : attack and defense. Of course there are many variations. In Tomiki's way it is totally different, both "players" have the chance to use their techniques. This is the case for "toshu randori". In "tanto randori" there is the situation of attack with tanto and the defense by the unarmed person, but in some cases the tanto man also can use some counters.
Most of the players are referring to the basic kata for their techniques. Only using the "kata form" will result in most of the cases in a not effective technique. We must adapt our kata into a working instrument for randori.
How to adapt our techniques was the topic of a recent seminar in Belgium. You can see an impression at youtube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=toZFHDA_SJQ
and for the result of randori training
http://www.youtube.com/user/maillllll6#p/u/129/XNuoHpEDqlU

This randori method is of course a "sports" way of aikido, and from the point of view for a actual fight, it has many mistakes.
But at the end it is great fun and most of the people are always enjoying the "play" of randori.

Eddy Wolput
www.shobukai.be

Not exactly true. I'm Aikikai, but we are never taught it as a one way street. The relationship between uke and nage is always a battle for the center. I was once told by a Sensei that nage has to demand his position as nage, else he become uke. So to speak, it isn't just Tomiki style that teaches the interchangeable concept between uke and nage. It is a fundamental fact in Aikido.
One thing I always had issue with however: why do they pad the tanto? I always figured a few bruised ribs or a busted lip helps teach you how not to get hit. I mean, no one pads a real knife. You might get killed some day if you train your mind to not respect a blade. But I understand your statement that it is "sport" Aikido. Thus isn't exactly meant to be 100% reflective of an actual situation.
Just saying.

Thanks for sharing the clips!
Happy new year!

L. Camejo
12-31-2010, 08:07 PM
Good points Maggie and Ryan.

I always figured a few bruised ribs or a busted lip helps teach you how not to get hit. I mean, no one pads a real knife. You might get killed some day if you train your mind to not respect a blade.This is how we tend to train (in my Tomiki dojo). Unless we are doing specific competition training all knife work is done using a wooden replica of a real knife (painted silver and shaped accordingly). I have found that this helps the student to keep the respect for the tanto as a potential weapon for non-sport situations. It also encourages the use of Aiki principles in a way that will maximize safety if one is faced with a knife or similar situation.

Of course there are a lot of things that are tactically wrong (from a self defence or combat perspective) when we look at sport-style tanto randori but the key I guess is to remember that it is just that - sport. The primary job of the knife is to enforce correct ma ai and prevent the encounter from becoming a Judo match. The tanto forces both participants to maintain a certain ma ai that increases the possibility of executing Aikido waza under those conditions (and simultaneously minimizing the potential for close range throws, reaps and ne waza).

Regarding the "Aikikai approach" to randori, it depends on the instructor as in most cases. I have never experienced that form of randori in my Aikikai practice (or Yoshinkan for that matter), but I also know that depending on the instructor, the possibility of that kind of training is definitely there and is often done by Yudansha with a similar desire to train that way.

Sometimes the Aikikai approach may even be more comprehensive as it allows one to deal with more attacks than just a tsuki. This is critical for developing the proper reflex responses for non-sport applications of Aikido waza. I have adopted this training method as it is also part of Shodokan Aikido but not often used by those who focus primarily on shiai.

Just my 5 cents.

LC

ewolput
01-01-2011, 12:30 PM
According to Tomiki sensei, aikido is a martial art with an "educational" purpose. It is a way of self discipline and avoiding conflicts. Such a training system needs a lot of safety rules, because we don't like unwanted injuries. In case of randori there are some rules to avoid injuries, using a safe "tanto" is one of those rules. In modern kendo, people are using shinai for their freeplay, and shinai has to follow some rules to gain points in a match. This will have an influence on the way of strategy. The same is in tanto randori, the rules will have an influence on the strategy. Besides tanto randori there is also toshu randori, unarmed randori. In this case we can use atemi and or locking or controlling techniques, but we have to avoid also injuries, atemi waza and kansetsu waza are used in a non-destructive manner.
To create good randori we are following a certain method to create an opportunity to apply a technique. The skill in randori is to avoid or neutralize the "tsukuri" of the opponent. This way is common knowledge in Tomiki aikido circles.
In real life we have to adopt a different way, and that's why we study kata. These kata are based upon old jujutsu or aikijutsu. But the ideas of Tomiki sensei are integrated in these kata. The purpose of atemi waza for example is not inflicting pain or damage, but it is a method to throw someone down, or to create an opening for using kansetsu waza. Kansetsu waza has also safety rules, and the goal is not to damage people, but its purpose is to control the violence of the attacker.

It was Tomiki sensei who said, randori is painting the eye of the dragon to bring him alive.
Testing our skill, we can do in 2 situations : real life situation on the street or battlefield....or on the playground of shiai with a lot of safety rules to avoid damage.
Make your choice :D

And a happy new year - gelukkig nieuwjaar (dutch or flemish)

mathewjgano
01-01-2011, 01:24 PM
Aren't those tanto used in shiai not "padded" but just padding? ...With the intent being to allow for a replicated stab to the hilt of the tanto (which is the way to score a point?)? I remember training randori with the Himeji Shodokan club and often looking down to see the thumb and forefinger pressed against me, the "blade" bent at 90 degrees.
One of the things I really liked about the randori approach of Tomiki (as I understood it to be, at least) was the graduated intensity. I was able to practice with two nidans at the time who showed me different contexts to compare my "abilities" with. In the context where I wasn't given much if any quarter, I executed 0 techniques and was stabbed more times than I can count. It was invaluable, and the idea of a blade being involved added a nice poignancy to the lesson!
I agree with the idea that it's a good teaching tool when nage gets hit. It doesn't have to be hard, but A) it shows that uke is actually trying to get you, and B) it shows nage how behind in the movement they were. I've never been hit hard, but a bop to the face has always sped me up a bit!

Tony Wagstaffe
01-01-2011, 02:17 PM
According to Tomiki sensei, aikido is a martial art with an "educational" purpose. It is a way of self discipline and avoiding conflicts. Such a training system needs a lot of safety rules, because we don't like unwanted injuries. In case of randori there are some rules to avoid injuries, using a safe "tanto" is one of those rules. In modern kendo, people are using shinai for their freeplay, and shinai has to follow some rules to gain points in a match. This will have an influence on the way of strategy. The same is in tanto randori, the rules will have an influence on the strategy. Besides tanto randori there is also toshu randori, unarmed randori. In this case we can use atemi and or locking or controlling techniques, but we have to avoid also injuries, atemi waza and kansetsu waza are used in a non-destructive manner.
To create good randori we are following a certain method to create an opportunity to apply a technique. The skill in randori is to avoid or neutralize the "tsukuri" of the opponent. This way is common knowledge in Tomiki aikido circles.
In real life we have to adopt a different way, and that's why we study kata. These kata are based upon old jujutsu or aikijutsu. But the ideas of Tomiki sensei are integrated in these kata. The purpose of atemi waza for example is not inflicting pain or damage, but it is a method to throw someone down, or to create an opening for using kansetsu waza. Kansetsu waza has also safety rules, and the goal is not to damage people, but its purpose is to control the violence of the attacker.

It was Tomiki sensei who said, randori is painting the eye of the dragon to bring him alive.
Testing our skill, we can do in 2 situations : real life situation on the street or battlefield....or on the playground of shiai with a lot of safety rules to avoid damage.
Make your choice :D

And a happy new year - gelukkig nieuwjaar (dutch or flemish)

That is very well put Eddy......... Love your eloquence and Ideals. I just lack the eloquence.... Thank :) you

Tony Wagstaffe
01-01-2011, 02:21 PM
Good points Maggie and Ryan.

This is how we tend to train (in my Tomiki dojo). Unless we are doing specific competition training all knife work is done using a wooden replica of a real knife (painted silver and shaped accordingly). I have found that this helps the student to keep the respect for the tanto as a potential weapon for non-sport situations. It also encourages the use of Aiki principles in a way that will maximize safety if one is faced with a knife or similar situation.

Of course there are a lot of things that are tactically wrong (from a self defence or combat perspective) when we look at sport-style tanto randori but the key I guess is to remember that it is just that - sport. The primary job of the knife is to enforce correct ma ai and prevent the encounter from becoming a Judo match. The tanto forces both participants to maintain a certain ma ai that increases the possibility of executing Aikido waza under those conditions (and simultaneously minimizing the potential for close range throws, reaps and ne waza).

Regarding the "Aikikai approach" to randori, it depends on the instructor as in most cases. I have never experienced that form of randori in my Aikikai practice (or Yoshinkan for that matter), but I also know that depending on the instructor, the possibility of that kind of training is definitely there and is often done by Yudansha with a similar desire to train that way.

Sometimes the Aikikai approach may even be more comprehensive as it allows one to deal with more attacks than just a tsuki. This is critical for developing the proper reflex responses for non-sport applications of Aikido waza. I have adopted this training method as it is also part of Shodokan Aikido but not often used by those who focus primarily on shiai.

Just my 5 cents.

LC

We use exactly the same methods Larry, the wooden tanto makes people do the correct avoidance and encourages better catching skills:) ;)

Ryan Seznee
01-02-2011, 04:48 PM
According to Tomiki sensei, aikido is a martial art with an "educational" purpose. It is a way of self discipline and avoiding conflicts. Such a training system needs a lot of safety rules, because we don't like unwanted injuries. In case of randori there are some rules to avoid injuries, using a safe "tanto" is one of those rules. In modern kendo, people are using shinai for their freeplay, and shinai has to follow some rules to gain points in a match. This will have an influence on the way of strategy. The same is in tanto randori, the rules will have an influence on the strategy. Besides tanto randori there is also toshu randori, unarmed randori. In this case we can use atemi and or locking or controlling techniques, but we have to avoid also injuries, atemi waza and kansetsu waza are used in a non-destructive manner.
To create good randori we are following a certain method to create an opportunity to apply a technique. The skill in randori is to avoid or neutralize the "tsukuri" of the opponent. This way is common knowledge in Tomiki aikido circles.
In real life we have to adopt a different way, and that's why we study kata. These kata are based upon old jujutsu or aikijutsu. But the ideas of Tomiki sensei are integrated in these kata. The purpose of atemi waza for example is not inflicting pain or damage, but it is a method to throw someone down, or to create an opening for using kansetsu waza. Kansetsu waza has also safety rules, and the goal is not to damage people, but its purpose is to control the violence of the attacker.

It was Tomiki sensei who said, randori is painting the eye of the dragon to bring him alive.
Testing our skill, we can do in 2 situations : real life situation on the street or battlefield....or on the playground of shiai with a lot of safety rules to avoid damage.
Make your choice :D

And a happy new year - gelukkig nieuwjaar (dutch or flemish)

If the rules are made purely to decrease injury, why have a tonto to begin with? Why not just use your hand? Uke gave away a chance to stab, cut, and hit the nage once he grappled his gi with his knife. I can only assume that there is no score if contact is made after this, but why is this encouraged?

Tony Wagstaffe
01-02-2011, 05:07 PM
Quote:
If the rules are made purely to decrease injury, why have a tonto to begin with? Why not just use your hand? Uke gave away a chance to stab, cut, and hit the nage once he grappled his gi with his knife. I can only assume that there is no score if contact is made after this, but why is this encouraged?

Go and find out and see if you can make your aikido work against fast committed strikes..... I think you will find it an eye opener..... reality without blood being spilt :hypno:

mickeygelum
01-02-2011, 08:08 PM
If the rules are made purely to decrease injury, why have a tonto to begin with? Why not just use your hand? Uke gave away a chance to stab, cut, and hit the nage once he grappled his gi with his knife. I can only assume that there is no score if contact is made after this, but why is this encouraged?


That is the separation of Toshu and Tanto randori...as Wolput Sensei explained.

In addition, in Tanto Randori, the roles of uke and nage are defined, and instantly reverse in certain situations.

Toshu Randori provides a much more assertive shiai.

Ryan Seznee
01-02-2011, 10:41 PM
That is the separation of Toshu and Tanto randori...as Wolput Sensei explained.

In addition, in Tanto Randori, the roles of uke and nage are defined, and instantly reverse in certain situations.

Toshu Randori provides a much more assertive shiai.

I see, but what I am really trying to wrap my head around is why the tanto is ignored after the first strike. When my school does tonto randori, the tonto can uke can attack again if the first one fails. The uke is at a disadvantage if the have to keep a hold of a knife but not use it because they can't use their other hand (I am assuming that uke can throw nage in this situation to get a point...)

Why keep the form of knife fighting for the first strike and then switch to unarmed tactics without a definite disarm as apposed to keep treating the attacker like they are armed or constantly treating the uke as they are unarmed, I guess would be my question.

Tony Wagstaffe
01-03-2011, 03:50 AM
I don't profess to know the "rules" for tanto randori as it is practised at present, but I remember it as we respected the tanto as a real knife, which should be avoided at all costs!!.....
If the opponent scores a tsuki ari, you were in fact "stabbed" and your opponent has scored a tanto tsuki ari ippon, a "kill" if you like.....
The way we practised was to make correct sugiashi and attempt to catch the tanto hand, which is very difficult, but can be done with lots of practice. Or attempt a shomen ate, gyaku, gedan , ushiro ate attack, much the same way as seen now....
My favourite wrist waza were tenkai kote hineri, tenkai kote gaeshi (shihonage), udegarame, wakigatamae.....
We were made to break from the wrestling which seems to be more common today. That was practised more as randori kyogi and shiai, now termed toshu randori....
Does that help? :)

ewolput
01-03-2011, 04:41 AM
article 6 Judging tanto tsuki (from the rules book 2008)
Tanto tsuki ari apply the concepts of the stab and straight cut from kendo and the principle of kikentai no itchi (unity of mind, sword and body). They are an extension of tegatana dosa (sword hand movements taken from Tomiki's judo taiso around 1950)
Valid areas : front sides and back of the chest, arms when they arein contact with the chest.
Upright torso and stable hips at the instant the tsuki finishes. Tsuki are perpendicular to toshu's bodu (unarmed person)
Tsuki start by stepping forward from issoku itto distance (one step distance).

This is a sports form of aikido randori, it teaches us good reflexes and correct judgment of distance. The purpose of randori is to find out if our techniques and movements are in the area of "skill". If you enter shiai or randori training you will find out very soon if you have the skill to defend yourself against a very simple attack and also against someone who is not cooperative.

For Tomiki, budo is the training of kokoro (here refering as mental), this kokoro has to remain immovable even in a decisive situation. In modern society the competiton area is the only place where we can practise our "kokoro" or immovable mind without the chance to become severe injured or slaughtered to death :D
After all aikido is the way of harmony and not the way of injury or death.

Only after entering the field of shiai, you can understand what is happening and how difficult it is to have an immovable mind. The fear of losing is always around the corner and makes the body frozen which results in "non"flexible techniques and hitting the opponent with the purpose to damage him.
This you cannot learn with "kata" practice alone.

L. Camejo
01-03-2011, 10:26 AM
I see, but what I am really trying to wrap my head around is why the tanto is ignored after the first strike. Hi Ryan,
You have some very good questions that I think are important for those who have the power to adapt their training to deal with more than just sport applications.

In shiai when one is struck with the tanto it has to be done in a particular manner. Eddy identified the requirements for a "correct" tanto strike in shiai above. The concept of ki ken tai no itchi is critical in this regard as the tanto thrust must be done with a step from the correct distance with the thrusting arm parallel to the floor and will not count as a strike (under competition rules) if one simply stabs from zero range after closing on the other player. In this light the thrust is more along the lines of European fencing than tanto jutsu per se.

Does this make sense from a modern knife fighting or self defence perspective - absolutely not imho. When one gets stabbed in competition it is more of a penalty against Toshu (the unarmed player) for non-existent tai sabaki instead of a reward to Tanto (the armed player) for having stabbed the other person. In the sense of Aikido fundamentals it makes sense that if one can't avoid being hit then the possibility of executing any technique becomes practically impossible.

Why keep the form of knife fighting for the first strike and then switch to unarmed tactics without a definite disarm as apposed to keep treating the attacker like they are armed or constantly treating the uke as they are unarmed, I guess would be my question.

As indicated by others, it should not be common practice to disregard the importance or existence of the tanto. But it is important to note that although there is a tanto in the match, there is not much of actual knife fighting tactics or techniques being used. As I said earlier, the primary role of the tanto is to enforce distance to minimize the possibility of an Aikido match turning into a Judo and grappling match. Tomiki was a high level Judoka and many of the early members of the Waseda Aikido Club (his first dojo where he developed the shiai system) were judoka. As a result the problem of matches becoming close range Judo bouts was a real issue. The tanto was introduced to prevent this problem.

In shiai when distance is closed after the initial strike it is Tanto's duty to place the knife on the chest or shoulder of Toshu if he is attempting a technique. This is to remind Toshu that he can be stabbed at this range and has to deal with the knife before technique can be attempted. Usually in shiai if Toshu applies an effective technique but had ignored the knife being pressed against his chest, the technique is disallowed. I believe the rules state that if Toshu ignores the knife pressed to his chest for more than 5 seconds he gets a warning and the 2 players are broken up and the bout is restarted from distance.

I think this is a good thread because many are unable to understand the difference between tanto shiai and Aikido self defence applications against tanto. It is something to be considered because meeting a trained knife fighter (especially of the FMA ilk) is nothing like Tanto Shiai and requires a pretty specific skill set imho.

Best
LC

Tony Wagstaffe
01-03-2011, 12:09 PM
Quote
"I think this is a good thread because many are unable to understand the difference between tanto shiai and Aikido self defence applications against tanto. It is something to be considered because meeting a trained knife fighter (especially of the FMA ilk) is nothing like Tanto Shiai and requires a pretty specific skill set imho."

You would be betting your life on that one!! Short of using a dustbin lid as a shield!! Wheely bins are a pain.....Or bloody great big steps in the other direction....!!! :D
I've seen these people in action during my navy time.... Manilla comes to mind!! Only a bloody fool would consider it!!:straightf :crazy:

L. Camejo
01-03-2011, 05:22 PM
You would be betting your life on that one!! Short of using a dustbin lid as a shield!! Wheely bins are a pain.....Or bloody great big steps in the other direction....!!! :D
I've seen these people in action during my navy time.... Manilla comes to mind!! Only a bloody fool would consider it!!:straightf :crazy:Quite correct. :)

LC

CitoMaramba
01-04-2011, 04:50 AM
I'm glad we Filipinos are feared for our awesome knife fighting skills :D

Tony Wagstaffe
01-04-2011, 09:13 AM
I'm glad we Filipinos are feared for our awesome knife fighting skills :D

Of course, who wouldn't be?
What happens when they take the knives away....?;) :D

Hellis
01-04-2011, 09:33 AM
Of course, who wouldn't be?
What happens when they take the knives away....?;) :D

Thats when you give the dustbin lids back :)

Henry

Henry Ellis
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/

ewolput
01-04-2011, 09:36 AM
Of course, who wouldn't be?
What happens when they take the knives away....?;) :D

They get "shido" according the rulesbook:D

mickeygelum
01-04-2011, 09:37 AM
They get "shido" according the rulesbook
AH-hahahahahahahahahahhhaaa....:D

Tony Wagstaffe
01-04-2011, 09:57 AM
Thats when you give the dustbin lids back :)

Henry

Henry Ellis
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/

Ha ha, That's providing there's one to hand when the knives appear...... if you see it!!
What I witnessed was gang warfare and there was no sign of knives until engagement......:eek: :crazy:
Believe it when I say we got out of there pretty fast before they turned on us matelots!! Being where we shouldn't be....:rolleyes:

Tony Wagstaffe
01-04-2011, 10:00 AM
AH-hahahahahahahahahahhhaaa....:D

F***k the "shido" and sod the F******g rule book!!:crazy: :hypno: ;) :D

mickeygelum
01-04-2011, 10:22 AM
F***k the "shido" and sod the F******g rule book

Such language! You can't say "SOD" here, get a civil tongue in your head!:rolleyes: :D

Tony Wagstaffe
01-04-2011, 10:30 AM
Such language! You can't say "SOD" here, get a civil tongue in your head!:rolleyes: :D

Whoops!! So sorry........:D ;)

SeiserL
01-04-2011, 12:21 PM
What happens when they take the knives away....?
IMHO, first we learned with sticks, then knives, then hands. FMA is a complete art.

Either when they take our knives away we are dead (a knife ambush and assassination, never an attack, ends up with one in the hospital and one in the morgue), or our hands become our knives.

A while back, Phong Sensei of Tenshinkai Aikido, did a Black Belt Magazine article on Aikido against the five-angles of FMA. The photos were taking using a live blade. It is interesting on how the marge change.

mickeygelum
01-04-2011, 12:48 PM
....the five-angles of FMA.

We have eight basic angles in Albo Kali Silat.

" Stick trains knife trains hand", as the old saying goes.

Train well,

Mickey

CitoMaramba
01-04-2011, 01:19 PM
Ha ha, That's providing there's one to hand when the knives appear...... if you see it!!
What I witnessed was gang warfare and there was no sign of knives until engagement......:eek: :crazy:
Believe it when I say we got out of there pretty fast before they turned on us matelots!! Being where we shouldn't be....:rolleyes:

Yeah, I stitched up quite a few of those gang members during my rotation in the A&E of the largest public hospital in Manila..
treated a Russian sailor too who got stabbed while drinking where he shouldn't be..
It's a good thing you got out..

Tony Wagstaffe
01-04-2011, 02:13 PM
Yeah, I stitched up quite a few of those gang members during my rotation in the A&E of the largest public hospital in Manila..
treated a Russian sailor too who got stabbed while drinking where he shouldn't be..
It's a good thing you got out..

I was there 1970, H.M.S. Andromeda, young, brash, brave, but not bloody daft!! :D ;)
I've never run so bloody fast in all my life !!!!! :crazy:

Tony Wagstaffe
01-04-2011, 02:23 PM
IMHO, first we learned with sticks, then knives, then hands. FMA is a complete art.

Either when they take our knives away we are dead (a knife ambush and assassination, never an attack, ends up with one in the hospital and one in the morgue), or our hands become our knives.

A while back, Phong Sensei of Tenshinkai Aikido, did a Black Belt Magazine article on Aikido against the five-angles of FMA. The photos were taking using a live blade. It is interesting on how the marge change.

Don't be humble Lynn, it doesn't suit you :D
I was kinda referring to fists and anything else that came to hand;)
When the odds are against you, time to withdraw (If you can).... fast!! :hypno: :D

Hellis
01-04-2011, 03:33 PM
IMHO, first we learned with sticks, then knives, then hands. FMA is a complete art.

Either when they take our knives away we are dead (a knife ambush and assassination, never an attack, ends up with one in the hospital and one in the morgue), or our hands become our knives.

A while back, Phong Sensei of Tenshinkai Aikido, did a Black Belt Magazine article on Aikido against the five-angles of FMA. The photos were taking using a live blade. It is interesting on how the marge change.

Hi Lynn

Thank you for reminding me of Phong Sensei.( not east to forget )..He is a most impressive man, I am not often impressed..When we held the Masahilo Nakazono Memorial in Wales in 2007, Phong Sensei and Madam Phong and senior students ```all``` travelled at their own expense from California to honour Nakazono Sensei, Phong Sensei's teacher...
No ribbons, no breathing through his toes, just excellent Aikido.
Please pass on my respects when next you see Phong Sensei.

Henry Ellis
http://tadashi-abe.blogspot.com/

L. Camejo
01-04-2011, 09:05 PM
So going with the weapons training empty hands analogy. Aikidoka should have arms that work just like swords through tegatana/bokken training right?

Taking the analogy a bit further - who do you think would have the advantage in a knife vs sword fight and how does that apply back to tegatana in Aikido and dealing with edged weapons?

Just some random thoughts. :)

LC

Tony Wagstaffe
01-05-2011, 04:26 AM
So going with the weapons training empty hands analogy. Aikidoka should have arms that work just like swords through tegatana/bokken training right?

Taking the analogy a bit further - who do you think would have the advantage in a knife vs sword fight and how does that apply back to tegatana in Aikido and dealing with edged weapons?

Just some random thoughts. :)

LC

I would consider the knife practitioner might have the advantage to some extent as they can be hidden, as swords can be awkward in a closed environment, and are a bit difficult to hide unless you make out you have a gammy leg and have a sword stick. :D ;)
Wakazashi would be a bit awkward too..... :rolleyes:
So a double edged knife is to some extent more dexterous than a sword arm, which would most likely get slashed to bits, up against a knife wielder with skill.....
Just my thoughts too :straightf

SeiserL
01-05-2011, 05:05 AM
So going with the weapons training empty hands analogy. Aikidoka should have arms that work just like swords through tegatana/bokken training right?

Taking the analogy a bit further - who do you think would have the advantage in a knife vs sword fight and how does that apply back to tegatana in Aikido and dealing with edged weapons?
Yes agreed.

They say that AIkido came from kenjutsu (sword arts) so if you move the hands like you cut with a sword, IMHO, your technique becomes very different in a good way.

Knifes vs sword is a matter of distance (maai). At a longer (word length) distance, the sword has it. Bridge and get inside that distance, advantage the shorter blade.

IMHO (and back on topic) always assume that predators run in packs and you are never fighting a single person. Keep the situational awareness and periphery vision active - randori.

Thoughts?

Insane Duane
02-03-2011, 11:52 PM
Well I watched the videos and I had a hard time watching them. To me this has no value in regards to self defense. Too many things didn't make sense, maybe because I don't understand. I think this would be counter productive and very dangerous since the fake tanto is essentially forgotten after the initial attack. A very true saying is: you fight like you train.
But hey, if you enjoy it more power to you but be aware that you are creating potentially fatal bad habits.

ewolput
02-04-2011, 03:53 AM
Well I watched the videos and I had a hard time watching them. To me this has no value in regards to self defense. Too many things didn't make sense, maybe because I don't understand. I think this would be counter productive and very dangerous since the fake tanto is essentially forgotten after the initial attack. A very true saying is: you fight like you train.
But hey, if you enjoy it more power to you but be aware that you are creating potentially fatal bad habits.

Yes, this is not selfdefense, it was mentioned already before. The purpose of this kind of training is to find out if a "waza" can be done against a resisting opponent who also have the chance to use a waza. The "tanto" is a part of the "game" with the only purpose to stab in a straight line to the "chudan" level of the body.
In Tomiki Aikido this is not the only method to study, but it seems most of the people only see this facet of the training.
If your goal in training is to be lethal, you can stop training today. You are lethal. Just drink and drive or purchase a weapon. As an old soldier with my chosen weapon, even in my mid fifties, I can be as lethal as the best unarmed UFC Champion. When I am given an automatic weapon with a full magazine and one in the pipe, safety off, I suspect even this old soldier would do pretty well." (Lt. Colonel Dane S. Harden)
I don't know this gentleman but I can understand very well his way of thinking.
A modern Musashi??:D
Eddy

Insane Duane
02-04-2011, 11:04 AM
If you want to play games that is fine with me. I love playing certain types of games. My only concern here is that this type of game promotes bad habits (i.e. ignoring the knife).

In regards to your quote; for me personally, my main purpose is to protect my family and myself. Killing is easy. With out training I could be killed easily. Heck, I could still be killed easily but at least now I have training that will give some tools to help prevent that from happening. For me it's not about killing but surviving. If I have to kill so I can survive, so be it. May this never have to happen.

ewolput
02-04-2011, 04:08 PM
If you want to play games that is fine with me. I love playing certain types of games. My only concern here is that this type of game promotes bad habits (i.e. ignoring the knife).

In regards to your quote; for me personally, my main purpose is to protect my family and myself. Killing is easy. With out training I could be killed easily. Heck, I could still be killed easily but at least now I have training that will give some tools to help prevent that from happening. For me it's not about killing but surviving. If I have to kill so I can survive, so be it. May this never have to happen.

Just a question : did you ever entered a a shiai with this mock knife according the rules of JAA? The randori in this thread is always regarded as a form of sportive activity. It is never mentioned as a form of selfdefense against a knife.
If you question the selfdefense aspect of Tomiki Aikido, please give more details, ....and not based on what you saw in the shiai applications.
In case of shinai kendo, you can say this is creating bad habits because you are attacking the protected areas of the body and in a real fight you have to attack "maybe" different parts and in shinai kendo you didn't practice.
In case of judo, people are using some strategy which are dangerous in a real fight, so they are creating bad habits?
So if you look at aikido from a selfdefense point of view, you are only see one aspect of this modern martial art. Maybe others likes the sportive side of it, or maybe others like the spirituel elements;
All depends on your personal look at aikido and I believe it is very difficult to find a consensus between the "martial" people or "spirituel" or "sportive" people.
These remarks are not directed to one person, but are more general observations on some critisims of certain training methods.
But i agree with you, shiai tanto randori is not selfdefense against knife.:p

Insane Duane
02-04-2011, 10:23 PM
Fair enough. I read randori training and assumed "martial" training but quickly realized it was "sportive". So I had a "martial" perspective when viewing it. So my bad in taking this out of context. Best wishes and hope you enjoy your sport!