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Petlev
12-29-2010, 03:48 AM
I have read hundreds of pages of threads over the last few weeks here on Aikiweb, and have noticed many threads concerning the effectiveness Aikido on the street, or against a boxer, or against a BJJ/MMA person, etc. I have also noticed Aikidoka of all levels claiming it isn't effective, or "if you're taking Aikido for self defense, you are looking in the wrong place", etc. My question is why? I mean we have many people who have never even stepped into a dojo who knock it's martial effectiveness, but why do Aikidoka who have put many hours in training, also agree?

Even if you can not pull of a certain technique very easy, things you learn like footwork, tai sabaki, movement, parrying, etc. all will help you in a real confrontation against anyone, let alone some untrained thug on the street. For instance, there are a few questions concerning Aikido versus a jab of a boxer. Why do you have to do anything but get out of the way of a jab? Is that not defense? Practicing techniques over and over has begun to make me quicker in my movements to avoid getting hit, this is something that will help you against anyone. Keep moving and buy your time until they do something to slip up, and then you make your move. Even getting out of the way with a tenkan can get you in position for a rear choke.

Also, who really cares if Aikido works in a fight. We are not training to "fight" but training to defend ourselves and our families. I used to train in a form of Kung Fu that was pretty straight to the point (I really don't remember it, I stopped about 8 years ago). One time a person I did not really like, and basically could not stand (thought he was a tough guy) started egging me on to show him what I learned in my "Kung Fu" using mocking words, thought it was a joke. He got in my face I moved my arms a little bit (think Bruce Lee in Enter the Dragon, noises and all) then kicked him in his nuts, and he went down. Now realistically, you can't do that in a "fight", so the real effectiveness of what you can do won't show through in a fight, unless it's pure self defense.

It could be that I have a little background in another art and that I also have seen an Aikidoka (now sandan, then 3rd, or 2nd Kyu) effectively use Aikido in a self defense situation, twice. That was what got me looking at Aikido back then. It took me 15 years or so to finally start. I also saw a pro boxer who once held two belts get his butt handed to him by a nobody trained in nothing. In high school, 9th grade, I saw a 3rd degree "black belt" in TKD also get his butt handed to him by a nobody trained in nothing. The former (Aikidoka) were pure self defense situations, while the latter two were just fights. They tried to use their training, but the no rules format didn't work out to well for them.

So please, tell me again..why do Aikidoka say Aikido does not work for self defense?

Tony Wagstaffe
12-29-2010, 04:20 AM
It has worked for me on most occasions where I have had to use it, I just adapted it, which I can tell you now is not pretty at all, but rather brutish, which I am not proud of, but it saved my skin on more than a couple of rather nasty situations...
Doesn't mean to say I got away completely unscathed, but it meant I survived and only had to get a couple of stitches here and there, which meant I was able to carry on working the next day, albeit I didn't look so pretty....

Those that think they will do the fantastic looking waza in the dojo or videos that's all for show and bugger all else..... Believe it!!!!

If you are that worried about it take up the proper Shodo thuggery, or go to a club that deals with doing the business and stop fooling yourself and playing with aiki bunnies....:hypno:

Petlev
12-29-2010, 04:41 AM
It has worked for me on most occasions where I have had to use it, I just adapted it, which I can tell you now is not pretty at all, but rather brutish, which I am not proud of, but it saved my skin on more than a couple of rather nasty situations...
Doesn't mean to say I got away completely unscathed, but it meant I survived and only had to get a couple of stitches here and there, which meant I was able to carry on working the next day, albeit I didn't look so pretty....

Those that think they will do the fantastic looking waza in the dojo or videos that's all for show and bugger all else..... Believe it!!!!

If you are that worried about it take up the proper Shodo thuggery, or go to a club that deals with doing the business and stop fooling yourself and playing with aiki bunnies....:hypno:

Well, that's the thing..I'm not worried nor am I fooling myself. I know the moves won't be perfect (like I said) especially for beginners, but that does not mean that what you learn, and all the practice won't help you in a real situation. It doesn't mean Aikido doesn't work, or the concepts and principles don't work.

graham christian
12-29-2010, 04:50 AM
I have read hundreds of pages of threads over the last few weeks here on Aikiweb, and have noticed many threads concerning the effectiveness Aikido on the street, or against a boxer, or against a BJJ/MMA person, etc. I have also noticed Aikidoka of all levels claiming it isn't effective, or "if you're taking Aikido for self defense, you are looking in the wrong place", etc. My question is why? I mean we have many people who have never even stepped into a dojo who knock it's martial effectiveness, but why do Aikidoka who have put many hours in training, also agree?

Even if you can not pull of a certain technique very easy, things you learn like footwork, tai sabaki, movement, parrying, etc. all will help you in a real confrontation against anyone, let alone some untrained thug on the street. For instance, there are a few questions concerning Aikido versus a jab of a boxer. Why do you have to do anything but get out of the way of a jab? Is that not defense? Practicing techniques over and over has begun to make me quicker in my movements to avoid getting hit, this is something that will help you against anyone. Keep moving and buy your time until they do something to slip up, and then you make your move. Even getting out of the way with a tenkan can get you in position for a rear choke.

Also, who really cares if Aikido works in a fight. We are not training to "fight" but training to defend ourselves and our families. I used to train in a form of Kung Fu that was pretty straight to the point (I really don't remember it, I stopped about 8 years ago). One time a person I did not really like, and basically could not stand (thought he was a tough guy) started egging me on to show him what I learned in my "Kung Fu" using mocking words, thought it was a joke. He got in my face I moved my arms a little bit (think Bruce Lee in Enter the Dragon, noises and all) then kicked him in his nuts, and he went down. Now realistically, you can't do that in a "fight", so the real effectiveness of what you can do won't show through in a fight, unless it's pure self defense.

It could be that I have a little background in another art and that I also have seen an Aikidoka (now sandan, then 3rd, or 2nd Kyu) effectively use Aikido in a self defense situation, twice. That was what got me looking at Aikido back then. It took me 15 years or so to finally start. I also saw a pro boxer who once held two belts get his butt handed to him by a nobody trained in nothing. In high school, 9th grade, I saw a 3rd degree "black belt" in TKD also get his butt handed to him by a nobody trained in nothing. The former (Aikidoka) were pure self defense situations, while the latter two were just fights. They tried to use their training, but the no rules format didn't work out to well for them.

So please, tell me again..why do Aikidoka say Aikido does not work for self defense?

Hi Pete, nice to meet you.

I think a little differenciation is needed here. When Aikidoka say that Aikido doesn't work against a boxer etc. I think they have a personal experience where they came unstuck and are blaming, yes blaming Aikido.

To me these people have not understood Aikido and have thus not applied it in real situations. It always used to surprise me when I used to go to watch martial arts competitions when I see one person trained in praying mantis versus another person trained in jeet kun do enter the ring and when the bell goes they fight like boxers with a few kics here and there. Their training goes out of the window and they just fight.

People on this forum have told me they don't think I emphsize the martial part of this martial art in my Aikido and yet I have probably been in more real life situations which I have handled with Aikido than they have. Only the other night I was helping my friend who runs a pub on christmas eve. Whilst collecting empty glasses outside a row started so I put the glasses down and obseved, relaxed, and noticed it was three against one and suddenly the big one out of the three smashed a glass over the victims head. Aikido took over, no thinking, just motion. I was straight into the center of the fight, with tegatana I had knocked the remaining glass out of the attackers hand and tok his head up from under the chin with my other hand and the only thing which stopped him flying backwards was the fact that the glassed man was hanging on to him.

Attention was out on the other two and I'm sure they were all shocked as I told the victim to stand behind me. They ran off.

You see the matial part of my Aikido is keeping to the principles of motion, the principles of center, the principles of weight underside and koshi, the principles of zan shin etc. This is true discipline and the true martial side of Aikido. It is nothing to do with fighting.

So I would say to you that when you here these statements from Aikidoka know they do not yet know Aikido and are trapped in their own fear. Plus remember 'empty barrels make the most noise.'

A good tai-sabake ends most fights but many may not even know the truth of this for they see tai-sabake as some kind of avoidance. The ones who are confident are usually quiet and neither boast how great Aikido is or complain how useless it is for they have nothing to prove.

You observations above are quite true so already you know more than quite a few.

Happy new year. G.

Tony Wagstaffe
12-29-2010, 05:06 AM
Well, that's the thing..I'm not worried nor am I fooling myself. I know the moves won't be perfect (like I said) especially for beginners, but that does not mean that what you learn, and all the practice won't help you in a real situation. It doesn't mean Aikido doesn't work, or the concepts and principles don't work.

Go out and pick on a couple of nasty dysfuntionals you'll soon find out:D ;) Just make sure you don't get caught or end up in court!!
That's where the real practice comes in, and no it won't work for the complete novice, of course not!! :hypno: :rolleyes:

SeiserL
12-29-2010, 06:02 AM
You fight the way you train.

IMHO, if you look at how most people train you will see why their Aikido does not work. Saying Aikido doesn't work is only a personal disclosure about their training.

Hellis
12-29-2010, 07:52 AM
Go out and pick on a couple of nasty dysfuntionals you'll soon find out:D ;) Just make sure you don't get caught or end up in court!!
That's where the real practice comes in, and no it won't work for the complete novice, of course not!! :hypno: :rolleyes:

There is no need to go out and pick on a couple of `dysfunctuals:crazy: ` , the chances are they are already waiting for you somewhere, sometime. sooner or later.
In a truly hostile situation there is a need to be able to adapt, simply because the guy in the street doesn't know that he is supposed to harmonise with you. Aikido techniques are no longer pretty when done outside the dojo. The guy in the street does not know how to breakfall. I have found the techniques of Aikido to be very effective.

Henry Ellis
http://tadashi-abe.blogspot.com/

Richard Stevens
12-29-2010, 08:08 AM
I've always been a big believer that if you can perform a technique in training perfectly and gracefully, if you had to use it in a confrontation your chances of it actually working increase dramatically.

While I'm not an Aikidoka (I train in a branch of Hakko-Ryu) I've been forced to use what I've learned after being attacked while with my 2 year old son. What I realized after the incident is that although the technique I used was "sloppy" it was very effective in ending the situation quickly without anyone being seriously injured. If I had not been training, it would likely have turned into a wrestling match and who knows what would have happened.

I think the effectiveness of an Aikidoka "on the street" comes down to their mentality and how they train.

chillzATL
12-29-2010, 09:26 AM
I'm in with what Lynn said.

Most people don't even train with much resistance, much less any level of serious intent. I've had to use aikido to defend myself twice and it served me well. It's all about what you put into it.

Brett Charvat
12-29-2010, 09:53 AM
"Shodo thuggery?" Does that involve beating people up with brushes and inkstones?

Cliff Judge
12-29-2010, 10:03 AM
Because it doesn't. It never has, and it never will. I tried for years, then I finally caved in and bought myself a Weber grill. Now my steaks are perfect every time.

mickeygelum
12-29-2010, 10:40 AM
"Shodo thuggery?" Does that involve beating people up with brushes and inkstones?


:confused: Huh?

Ketsan
12-29-2010, 10:55 AM
"Shodo thuggery?" Does that involve beating people up with brushes and inkstones?

:D

Tony Wagstaffe
12-29-2010, 11:21 AM
There is no need to go out and pick on a couple of `dysfunctuals:crazy: ` , the chances are they are already waiting for you somewhere, sometime. sooner or later.
In a truly hostile situation there is a need to be able to adapt, simply because the guy in the street doesn't know that he is supposed to harmonise with you. Aikido techniques are no longer pretty when done outside the dojo. The guy in the street does not know how to breakfall. I have found the techniques of Aikido to be very effective.

Henry Ellis
http://tadashi-abe.blogspot.com/

Henry,

I was referring to certain Shihan that have done that.... sshhhh!! ;)

I get it whether I want it or not..... Just the territory I work in, but I am developing a keen sixth sense, which I use more often now due to experience (and age!!) ;) :)

Tony

kewms
12-29-2010, 11:22 AM
A good tai-sabake ends most fights but many may not even know the truth of this for they see tai-sabake as some kind of avoidance. The ones who are confident are usually quiet and neither boast how great Aikido is or complain how useless it is for they have nothing to prove.

This is very true.

Confidence also tends to discourage many potential attackers, all by itself. If a fight never starts, you never know how it would have ended. There's a good chance that the people most likely to get in fights are also the people least likely to be able to use their aikido effectively.

*shrug* The more I train, the less interesting the "does it work" question becomes. I've personally had to use the Look of Death (tm) a couple of times, but nothing beyond that.

Katherine

Tony Wagstaffe
12-29-2010, 11:28 AM
:D

No, it's how many of the aiki bunnies keep referring to us....

Shodo thugs?

We aren't really..... Honestly......:D ;)

Alex be'ave......:D ;)

Don Nordin
12-29-2010, 11:36 AM
Pete,

I think you hit the nail on the head, all the benefits you pointed out about distance timing, speed of movement, are all advantages that an Aikido player has over "untrained" people. So from a self defense viewpoint there is no question in my mind that Aikido is effective. If a person had no formal MA training and then took Aikido for one month they would be better prepared than they were a month before.
I think what get's people discouraged is the time it takes to get really proficent in the art. They see high level players and think I cant do that so my Aikido is not effective. However as you pointed out if you learn to get out of the way, you diffused half of the problem. The other thing people forget is that unless they train for a long time they may not react as they expect in an emergency.

Hellis
12-29-2010, 01:02 PM
Henry,

I was referring to certain Shihan that have done that.... sshhhh!! ;)

I get it whether I want it or not..... Just the territory I work in, but I am developing a keen sixth sense, which I use more often now due to experience (and age!!) ;) :)

Tony

Tony

A few years ago a 6th dan in Aikido, I was told he had `nice` Aikido movement until he was down his high street, where he had a problem with a sixteen year old boy, the boy levelled the 6th dan.
A most unpleasant reality.

Henry
Henry Ellis
http://tadashi-abe.blogspot.com

lbb
12-29-2010, 01:04 PM
"Why do you hate freedom?"

Yay for loaded questions.

Tony Wagstaffe
12-29-2010, 01:59 PM
Tony

A few years ago a 6th dan in Aikido, I was told he had `nice` Aikido movement until he was down his high street, where he had a problem with a sixteen year old boy, the boy levelled the 6th dan.
A most unpleasant reality.

Henry
Henry Ellis
http://tadashi-abe.blogspot.com

Henry,

Seen and met few of them myself, told me I was brutal to my students and I shouldn't be teaching "aikido"......
I replied a realist, and I don't like wasting peoples time.
Personally I think I'm quite gentle to my students. Most have become good Dan grades (the few) and never complained about the aiki they were practising (well not to me personally anyway), except my wife who once said, I was getting soft in my mid life. You never used to be like this when I (she) was training for Dan grade!!!! :rolleyes: Wouldn't get away with it today I fear, she said "Yeah that's true"!!!
I have never had a lot of students, the most I think has been about 20 at one given time.... Quality as opposed to quantity is my little motto.....:)

Tony

Tony Wagstaffe
12-29-2010, 02:06 PM
I'm in with what Lynn said.

Most people don't even train with much resistance, much less any level of serious intent. I've had to use aikido to defend myself twice and it served me well. It's all about what you put into it.

Ditto......;)

Tony Wagstaffe
12-29-2010, 02:13 PM
:confused: Huh?

Shodo said was' wrong with ink stones and brushes? :D

Tony Wagstaffe
12-29-2010, 02:14 PM
"Why do you hate freedom?"

I love my freedom 'cause I have fought for it?......

Hellis
12-29-2010, 02:22 PM
I love my freedom 'cause I have fought for it?......

When you fight for freedom...... will the Plastic Samurai and Aiki Bunny stand either side of you ?

Henry Ellis
http://tadashi-abe.blogspot.com/

Tony Wagstaffe
12-29-2010, 02:43 PM
When you fight for freedom...... will the Plastic Samurai and Aiki Bunny stand either side of you ?

Henry Ellis
http://tadashi-abe.blogspot.com/

Never saw any when I did, only me and those who had to.... Recent past......All tend to stand and watch and face down when you look 'em in the eye.....:straightf The nothing to do with me syndrome.....:disgust:

lbb
12-29-2010, 03:05 PM
I love my freedom 'cause I have fought for it?......

It's a not-so-classical reference (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Why%20do%20you%20hate%20freedom%3F) to a recent example of the intellectually dishonest tactic of closing down the dialogue by "asking" loaded, assumptive questions. The joke's a lot less funny when you have to explain it, alas, but it is a US-centric reference, so...

mathewjgano
12-29-2010, 03:48 PM
So please, tell me again..why do Aikidoka say Aikido does not work for self defense?

My guess, these days, is that it has to do with the fact that we often have different models in our mind when we're talking about things like "working for self-defense." I think a lot of the issue also has to do with a matter of emphasis. If you want to learn how to deal with good punching dynamics, for example, boxing is probably better suited, generally speaking. That isn't to say one can't find an Aikido dojo that teaches very good ways to deal with very good punches. It's a generalization, which always falls apart at some point...even if it's 99% true, you still have to consider that 1%.
Case in point is that somewhat common argument that BJJ (the ground-fighting stuff, at any rate) is better suited at fighting, but I have a small number of examples from growing up where frankly as soon as you take someone to the ground and appear to be winning in ANY way at all, their friends will come up and stomp you. In going to the ground you give up mobility, which to my mind, is a very important aspect of good self-defense.
I try to think of how different things apply across the board. I believe I have learned about self-defense-related things from stuff like soccer, skiing, and chess, so i tend to take the view that most things can relate to most other things with the proper creativity and application.
...Off to go sleding with the wee ones!
Take care folks!
Matt

Tony Wagstaffe
12-29-2010, 06:51 PM
Those who "think" about it are those that hesitate, which is a no go area!!!!.....
Hesitation in a no choice scenario is and can be lethal....
One of my my teachers who is Japanese stayed here for three years while studying English from 1979 - 1982. At that time he was a 4th Dan and was also All Japan Aikido Association tanto champion the previous year.
He still visits me me every year, when here as in his role as a teacher of English on the cultural visits, his and other schools do from Tokyo.
He is a very kind, considerate, gentle man and I am proud to call him my friend.....
He was accosted on the London Underground by a bunch of dysfunctional's and took them out in very quick succession....one ran off shouting kung fu, kung fu..... leg it....!!!!
He is also of shodo thuggery lineage and his favourite saying is.... Wait for it...... Don't think..... DO!!!
:)

mathewjgano
12-29-2010, 07:21 PM
Don't think..... DO!!!
:)

A lesson I learned from skiing, fittingly enough. That's not to say thinking isn't useful of course, but when you're on a slippery slope there isn't much time to think, particularly when suddenly the nice line you planned out at the top o' the hill isn't where your skis are any more.

RED
12-29-2010, 10:54 PM
It's a not-so-classical reference (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Why%20do%20you%20hate%20freedom%3F) to a recent example of the intellectually dishonest tactic of closing down the dialogue by "asking" loaded, assumptive questions. The joke's a lot less funny when you have to explain it, alas, but it is a US-centric reference, so...

I believe the whole statement is "Why do you hate freedom, motherhood and apple pie?!"

But yeah, it's baiting.
Actually, I sort of avoided this thread until now because the subject seems like a giant tackle-box.

dps
12-30-2010, 02:29 AM
So please, tell me again..why do Aikidoka say Aikido does not work for self defense?

Because some want to shape Aikido to fit what they want it to be instead of letting Aikido shape them.

David

Randall Lim
12-30-2010, 03:36 AM
I have read hundreds of pages of threads over the last few weeks here on Aikiweb, and have noticed many threads concerning the effectiveness Aikido on the street, or against a boxer, or against a BJJ/MMA person, etc. I have also noticed Aikidoka of all levels claiming it isn't effective, or "if you're taking Aikido for self defense, you are looking in the wrong place", etc. My question is why? I mean we have many people who have never even stepped into a dojo who knock it's martial effectiveness, but why do Aikidoka who have put many hours in training, also agree?

Even if you can not pull of a certain technique very easy, things you learn like footwork, tai sabaki, movement, parrying, etc. all will help you in a real confrontation against anyone, let alone some untrained thug on the street. For instance, there are a few questions concerning Aikido versus a jab of a boxer. Why do you have to do anything but get out of the way of a jab? Is that not defense? Practicing techniques over and over has begun to make me quicker in my movements to avoid getting hit, this is something that will help you against anyone. Keep moving and buy your time until they do something to slip up, and then you make your move. Even getting out of the way with a tenkan can get you in position for a rear choke.

Also, who really cares if Aikido works in a fight. We are not training to "fight" but training to defend ourselves and our families. I used to train in a form of Kung Fu that was pretty straight to the point (I really don't remember it, I stopped about 8 years ago). One time a person I did not really like, and basically could not stand (thought he was a tough guy) started egging me on to show him what I learned in my "Kung Fu" using mocking words, thought it was a joke. He got in my face I moved my arms a little bit (think Bruce Lee in Enter the Dragon, noises and all) then kicked him in his nuts, and he went down. Now realistically, you can't do that in a "fight", so the real effectiveness of what you can do won't show through in a fight, unless it's pure self defense.

It could be that I have a little background in another art and that I also have seen an Aikidoka (now sandan, then 3rd, or 2nd Kyu) effectively use Aikido in a self defense situation, twice. That was what got me looking at Aikido back then. It took me 15 years or so to finally start. I also saw a pro boxer who once held two belts get his butt handed to him by a nobody trained in nothing. In high school, 9th grade, I saw a 3rd degree "black belt" in TKD also get his butt handed to him by a nobody trained in nothing. The former (Aikidoka) were pure self defense situations, while the latter two were just fights. They tried to use their training, but the no rules format didn't work out to well for them.

So please, tell me again..why do Aikidoka say Aikido does not work for self defense?

Aikido is not fighting. Neither is it FOR fighting. All those Aikido techniques that we do are just exercises to develop our Ki-harmony & Ki-connection with a partner, as well as our own Ki-projection.

With these 3 elements mastered, techniques should be modified for martial effectiveness.

However, without them being mastered, no Aikido technique will work, because they are just exercises to develop the 3 elements.

Tony Wagstaffe
12-30-2010, 10:01 AM
Aikido is not fighting. Neither is it FOR fighting. All those Aikido techniques that we do are just exercises to develop our Ki-harmony & Ki-connection with a partner, as well as our own Ki-projection.

With these 3 elements mastered, techniques should be modified for martial effectiveness.

However, without them being mastered, no Aikido technique will work, because they are just exercises to develop the 3 elements.

Therefore the "aikido" you practice is not martial, but an exercise system developed from a "martial art" :straightf

Hellis
12-30-2010, 10:43 AM
Therefore the "aikido" you practice is not martial, but an exercise system developed from a "martial art" :straightf

I didn't know that :confused:

Henry Ellis

http://tadashi-abe.blogspot.com/

Lyle Bogin
12-30-2010, 10:50 AM
I can dig the idea that there are faster ways to get to the point where you can "defend yourself", but overall I think that aikidoka are convinced aikido isn't good for self defense because they either still suck or are afraid of failure.

lbb
12-30-2010, 10:55 AM
And how many aikidoka who don't "still suck" are really in any position to know if their aikido is any good for self-defense? Just how many so-called "self-defense" situations is the average not-sucky aikidoka encountering on a daily or even yearly basis?

CitoMaramba
12-30-2010, 10:58 AM
From The Life of O-Sensei, Morihei Ueshiba - Part 3 (http://www.aikidoonline.com/articles/o_sensei_doshu/K_Ueshiba_OSensei_Life_Part_3.php)
Rinjiro Shirata, full of talent, was considered a prodigy and admired as the pride of Kobukan. A few episodes from his life may show the temperament of the deshi of that time. He knocked on the gate of the Master in 1933 and studied for five years, until he departed for the front lines with the army. Those were the most gallant days of the Kobukan.

In 1934, one year after entering, he was dispatched to the Okayama Branch of the Budo Enhancement Association with fellow deshi Mr. Hashimoto. They were challenged to a match by two locals who were boastful of their abilities. Shirata declined solidly saying, "There is no competition in Aikido. A match means killing each other. Moreover it is the principle of 'Aiki Budo' not to fight." They wouldn't listen to him. So he stood up from necessity and threw one of them and pinned his hands. He then joked, "You see? Can you resist the world of non-resistance?"

Tony Wagstaffe
12-30-2010, 11:02 AM
And how many aikidoka who don't "still suck" are really in any position to know if their aikido is any good for self-defense? Just how many so-called "self-defense" situations is the average not-sucky aikidoka encountering on a daily or even yearly basis?

I average around two to three a year.......:hypno:

Tony Wagstaffe
12-30-2010, 11:11 AM
I didn't know that :confused:

Henry Ellis

http://tadashi-abe.blogspot.com/

Henry,

If I look at aikido as a "martial art", Then I would practice it as a martial art.... The health, harmony, exercise, connection, call it what you will is a by product emanating from the practice of that "martial art"

Am I making sense here.....? :hypno:

Or am I being too pragmatic?

Tony

kewms
12-30-2010, 11:14 AM
I average around two to three a year.......:hypno:

You're not average. I suspect the average is more like 2-3 or fewer in a lifetime.

Which is probably why the topic comes up so often. Most people have little or no experience with actual self-defense situations, so they spend a lot of time theorizing. People (like yourself) who encounter such situations routinely have already done whatever they need to in order to make sure they are prepared.

Katherine

Tony Wagstaffe
12-30-2010, 11:32 AM
Because some want to shape Aikido to fit what they want it to be instead of letting Aikido shape them.

David

To me David, aikido can fit all, depending on how you adapt it to your personality, genetics and physical make up.....
You make of it what you will, to me it is not a religion.
I am not religious, only in my practice, which is not uncompromising, it does change on every practice as no two waza are ever the same, but all the more for finding the best way for me....
Waza to me must be simple, effective, and work in a real scenario, if not, try, try again and only discard it after exhaustive trial .....
If it works for someone else? Yes teach it, but also admit it doesn't work for me....

mickeygelum
12-30-2010, 11:36 AM
And how many aikidoka who don't "still suck" are really in any position to know if their aikido is any good for self-defense? Just how many so-called "self-defense" situations is the average not-sucky aikidoka encountering on a daily or even yearly basis?


Every Cop, Corrections Officer, Prison Guard, EMS, TRT/SRT/SRU team member, who takes thier training seriously...just a few, on a daily basis, for years and years.

Pick any high crime area, where serious martial artist of the Aikido nature live and work, and add them to the list....just a few, on a daily basis, for years and years.

....you do the F%^&*G math.:eek:

Hellis
12-30-2010, 11:41 AM
Henry,

If I look at aikido as a "martial art", Then I would practice it as a martial art.... The health, harmony, exercise, connection, call it what you will is a by product emanating from the practice of that "martial art"

Am I making sense here.....? :hypno:

Or am I being too pragmatic?

Tony

In the 1950s K Abbe ~ T Abe ~ M Nakazono and others told us we were learning a martial art, as you say the rest is a by product..
If they had told me I was learning an exercise, I would have left the dojo for a much less painful gym.

Henry Ellis
http://tadashi-abe.blogspot.com/

Tony Wagstaffe
12-30-2010, 11:42 AM
You're not average. I suspect the average is more like 2-3 or fewer in a lifetime.

Which is probably why the topic comes up so often. Most people have little or no experience with actual self-defense situations, so they spend a lot of time theorizing. People (like yourself) who encounter such situations routinely have already done whatever they need to in order to make sure they are prepared.

Katherine

Katherine, it goes with the job in my case, which to those in the know is very vulnerable..... But it pays the bills....:straightf ;)

I would say you are probably right for most that are not in any way serving the public in law enforcement etc. But there are occupations such as mine that are invisible to most who never really think about these things, including the people who authorise and issue licences for us to operate..... the police, cabbies, door men, see it all and nothing is ever mentioned unless it hits the "front page"

Tony Wagstaffe
12-30-2010, 11:45 AM
In the 1950s K Abbe ~ T Abe ~ M Nakazono and others told us we were learning a martial art, as you say the rest is a by product..
If they had told me I was learning an exercise, I would have left the dojo for a much less painful gym.

Henry Ellis
http://tadashi-abe.blogspot.com/

Henry,

Thanks for that reply, Somehow thought I got my knickers in a "twist" :D

Tony

lbb
12-30-2010, 11:57 AM
As an after thought dear Mary..... what's it like to suck?:confused:

Wow. That's the rudest thing anyone's said to me in some time.

Into the killfile you go.

lbb
12-30-2010, 12:01 PM
....you do the F%^&*G math.:eek:

And you get a civil tongue in your head. I asked a reasonable question, you can provide a civil answer -- or not answer at all, if you don't want to! "do the F%^&*G math", if I were to invent an answer that would prove my point I couldn't have come up with a better one! Not that you provided numbers, but if you had, the so-called "math" would show that the experience isn't typical -- my point exactly.

*plonk* to you too.

Janet Rosen
12-30-2010, 12:11 PM
Folks, please stay civil.... thank you....
Back to thread....Experiences, needs and expectations will naturally vary based on individual's lives. The 40 year old law enforcement professional will have different scenarios and risks than the 20-something guy who frequents biker bars or the 60 year old woman who doesn't live in the worst neighborhood in town.

Hellis
12-30-2010, 12:12 PM
And how many aikidoka who don't "still suck" are really in any position to know if their aikido is any good for self-defense? Just how many so-called "self-defense" situations is the average not-sucky aikidoka encountering on a daily or even yearly basis?

Hi Mary

I don't think it is a matter of how many " so-called "self-defense" situations is the average not-sucky aikidoka encountering on a daily or even yearly basis "
Just the one encounter can be life changing for many....

Henry Ellis
http://tadashi-abe.blogspot.com/

chillzATL
12-30-2010, 12:36 PM
Just how many so-called "self-defense" situations is the average not-sucky aikidoka encountering on a daily or even yearly basis?

The honest answer is, not very many.

mickeygelum
12-30-2010, 01:13 PM
....Experiences, needs and expectations will naturally vary based on individual's lives. The 40 year old law enforcement professional will have different scenarios and risks than the 20-something guy who frequents biker bars or the 60 year old woman who doesn't live in the worst neighborhood in town.


Absolutely true.

The honest answer is, not very many.

Now what about everyone else? If you do not mind elaborating, your experience or reference is what? Your demography? Your Profession? Your victimization?

Your "honest answer" as it applies to you, " not very many ".

chillzATL
12-30-2010, 01:57 PM
Absolutely true.

Now what about everyone else? If you do not mind elaborating, your experience or reference is what? Your demography? Your Profession? Your victimization?

Your "honest answer" as it applies to you, " not very many ".

Mickey,

Cops, EMT's, hospital security, prison guards, etc, represent a tiny portion of our population. I know people in each of those fields. I also know people who help train a lot more of those people than I know personally. Most know enough to handle themselves in the average situation, but they depend on their position (of authority) and the tools their position affords them to best do their job. Few are hardened, capable "fighters". Fewer still train more than their job requires of them. Even with that, most are prepared, through training and through the authority of their position, to deal with 98% of the encounters they are likely to face in their jobs. These are people who find themselves in potentially dangerous situations far more than the most of us, aka, the average person, but even with that they still end up in relatively few really serious (life threatening) situations. So the "average person" who isn't going to places they shouldn't be, running their mouths when they shouldn't be or generally out looking for trouble can feel relatively secure in their daily lives without having to devote hours per week to being able to defend themselves in a really dangerous situation. Those people represent most of the aikido community and were the people Mary was asking about. So yes, it's safe to say "not very many", because it's generally true.

Demetrio Cereijo
12-30-2010, 02:27 PM
Just how many so-called "self-defense" situations is the average not-sucky aikidoka encountering on a daily or even yearly basis?

It really doesn't matter, what matters is being able to do what's needed, when it's needed, because it's needed. Call it virtue or social responsibility.

lbb
12-30-2010, 02:49 PM
It really doesn't matter, what matters is being able to do what's needed, when it's needed, because it's needed. Call it virtue or social responsibility.

I have no problem with this, but I think it's important to understand that this is a choice -- and that choosing to develop oneself in this way means not developing oneself in other ways that might also be said to be virtuous or socially responsible. But, now that I think about it, that's probably not really relevant to what I think you and some others are getting at, which is not "train every possible minute of every day so that you can be prepared for the statistically unlikely self-defense situation", but "in the time that you spend training, make it real". Am I correct about that?

mathewjgano
12-30-2010, 02:56 PM
Therefore the "aikido" you practice is not martial, but an exercise system developed from a "martial art" :straightf

Except that he's also saying the martial applicability comes about through the exercise, when done well enough. The question is, I think, again one of emphasis. What does the individual want to focus on? To best facilitate that the individual has to find a place with a similar emphasis.
If your "average" person wants to play the odds, martial efficacy could probably be pretty low on the priority list. If the person wants to address that "1%-er," it should be pretty high on the list. If it's somewhere in between it should probably be somewhere in between.
Certainly a system focusing highly on martial efficacy will provide many healthy side-effects, but it stands to reason that not everyone will want to put that kind of seriousness in their practice...and I think that should be ok. The head of the school sets the basic tone. Beyond that, I don't think it's for anyone to tell another what they should be doing as if theirs was The correct approach.
...Which always seems to creep into these discussions. The issue of delusion is of course important, but I don't think people can say much more than, "expect to be surprised," and, "go out to see the variety of ways different people prepare for it."
I guess it just seems like usually these conversations come down to two kinds of "discussion:" preeching to the choir or preeching to the pelicans. In either case, the talk isn't hugely helpful.
...er...not that that hasn't stopped me from trying...so I don't mean to imply anyone shouldn't speak their mind when they see fit, but there's mine for whatever little it's worth.
Take care,
Matt

"in the time that you spend training, make it real".
Which is good advice, but a lot more seems to come about than simply that message. And, more to the point, learning is a process. Making the training "real" requires discovering what "real" is in the first place...or getting lucky. And, frankly, I don't get the impression most people train for "real" self defense by practicing how to do an arm bar correctly. It comes about considerably more through situational awareness, which isn't a common thing in dojos I've seen (or I missed it). You don't generally learn about the "tells" of violent people on the mat.
...as it appears to me anyway.
Looking forward to corrections and insights from all.
Again, take care.

tlk52
12-30-2010, 05:54 PM
there's a quote from Terry Dobson, I don't remember exactly but something like "when the shit hits the fan you'll probably have a bag of groceries in one hand, and a baby in the other"

happy new year to all

Demetrio Cereijo
12-30-2010, 06:37 PM
I have no problem with this, but I think it's important to understand that this is a choice -- and that choosing to develop oneself in this way means not developing oneself in other ways that might also be said to be virtuous or socially responsible.
Of course this is a choice, one of many possible ones but, if someone chooses the budo path, self (or others, or property) defense skills is one of the various things that should be obtained by following said path for self developement and society benefit.

If someone is not interested in this kind of transformative technology of the self, he/she can chose another. There are many available.

But, now that I think about it, that's probably not really relevant to what I think you and some others are getting at, which is not "train every possible minute of every day so that you can be prepared for the statistically unlikely self-defense situation", but "in the time that you spend training, make it real". Am I correct about that?

Well, the "train every possible minute of every day so that you can be prepared for the statistically unlikely self-defense situation" is, imo, the road to paranoia; the "in the time that you spend training, make it real"... how many people really wants to gaze into the abyss? The abyss gazes also into you.

Certainly a system focusing highly on martial efficacy will provide many healthy side-effects, but it stands to reason that not everyone will want to put that kind of seriousness in their practice...and I think that should be ok.
How so?

dps
12-30-2010, 06:54 PM
So the "average person" who isn't going to places they shouldn't be, running their mouths when they shouldn't be or generally out looking for trouble can feel relatively secure in their daily lives without having to devote hours per week to being able to defend themselves in a really dangerous situation.

I am an average person by your definition. I have had to defend myself a few times. Once at work I was attacked by a coworker and once in my church by a fellow parishioner.

These are hardly the places that you would expect but it made me realize that an assault can happen anywhere at anytime for any reason.

It is a mistake to feel secure that it won't happen and prudent to feel that it might happen and prepare yourself beforehand.

David

mathewjgano
12-30-2010, 07:58 PM
How so?

I mean that I think people should be able to make their training into whatever they want without people criticizing them for it. Though I do think people should be able to criticize where they see fit too, so I don't have a tidy reply...and this must've been bothering me a bit because I just woke up from a nap where in my dream I was bawled out by some Aikidoka here I respect quite a bit, for basically being a dummy and overstepping my bounds.:o :D
I wrote a lot more than this, but felt it diverged from the topic a bit too much. I'd like to add I think it's important to consider Ledyard Sensei's remarks about hobbyists being a kind of necessary evil for dojos with respect to monitary support, etc. and quality of training, and to suggest I think the dichotomy applies on a larger scale to some degree.

I am an average person by your definition.
I don't think so; not in this context. I think by the fact that you were attacked three times means you're not the average person as it relates to being attacked, but I agree with your point about average people having to deal with stuff like this; that they should consider it more than just in passing.

RED
12-30-2010, 08:07 PM
I mean that I think people should be able to make their training into whatever they want without people criticizing them for it. Though I do think people should be able to criticize where they see fit too, so I don't have a tidy reply...and this must've been bothering me a bit because I just woke up from a nap where in my dream I was bawled out by some Aikidoka here I respect quite a bit, for basically being a dummy and overstepping my bounds.:o :D
I wrote a lot more than this, but felt it diverged from the topic a bit too much. I'd like to add I think it's important to consider Ledyard Sensei's remarks about hobbyists being a kind of necessary evil for dojos with respect to monitary support and quality of training, and to suggest I think the dichotomy applies on a larger scale to some degree.

Dude if you start dreaming about Aikiweb, you need to log off, get a cookie and some ale.

mathewjgano
12-30-2010, 08:18 PM
Dude if you start dreaming about Aikiweb, you need to log off, get a cookie and some ale.

LOL! Cookies and ale!? Ewwwwww! ...wait, that wasn't very manly...ehem...I prefer to eat bloody steaks and drink the fear-soaked tears of my enemies! Yeah!:D
...And to be fair I did take my nap right after posting...and I do care about how I communicate and how I contribute (where I do so). Sometimes it actually makes a difference.
...er...logging off now. :D
Take care.

RED
12-30-2010, 08:44 PM
LOL! Cookies and ale!? Ewwwwww! ...wait, that wasn't very manly...ehem...I prefer to eat bloody steaks and drink the fear-soaked tears of my enemies! Yeah!:D
...And to be fair I did take my nap right after posting...and I do care about how I communicate and how I contribute (where I do so). Sometimes it actually makes a difference.
...er...logging off now. :D
Take care.

:p

kewms
12-30-2010, 09:00 PM
It really doesn't matter, what matters is being able to do what's needed, when it's needed, because it's needed. Call it virtue or social responsibility.

But which is more socially responsible? Being able to protect yourself and/or others should the need arise, or spending the exact same amount of time that you now spend at the dojo tutoring disadvantaged kids, or volunteering at a shelter for battered women, or building houses, or...

There are lots of ways to be socially responsible. I'm not sure I'd put studying aikido particularly high on the list.

Katherine

dps
12-31-2010, 01:29 AM
But which is more socially responsible? Being able to protect yourself and/or others should the need arise, or spending the exact same amount of time that you now spend at the dojo tutoring disadvantaged kids, or volunteering at a shelter for battered women, or building houses, or...

There are lots of ways to be socially responsible. I'm not sure I'd put studying aikido particularly high on the list.

Katherine

You could also say, But which is more socially responsible? Working to provide for your self and family or spending the exact same amount of time that you now spend at the work tutoring disadvantaged kids, or volunteering at a shelter for battered women, or building houses, or...

Or you could say, But which is more socially responsible? Sitting at the table and eating your meals at home or spending the exact same amount of time that you now spend eating at home tutoring disadvantaged kids, or volunteering at a shelter for battered women, or building houses, or...

In order to be socially responsible, charitable, etc you have to be alive and healthy.

Practicing a martial art may be one of the fundamental things to do to be alive, safe and healthy.

David

Demetrio Cereijo
12-31-2010, 04:10 AM
But which is more socially responsible? Being able to protect yourself and/or others should the need arise, or spending the exact same amount of time that you now spend at the dojo tutoring disadvantaged kids, or volunteering at a shelter for battered women, or building houses, or...
Don't know. How can you measure that? Of course if we are talking of LARPing in tutoring disadvantaged kids...

There are lots of ways to be socially responsible. I'm not sure I'd put studying aikido particularly high on the list.
It's a personal choice.

Diana Frese
12-31-2010, 09:03 AM
Reading the forums reminds me of the days in active training when
I was struggling to keep up ..... but still coming back for more
practice, it was fascinating and you just keep learning more.

I'm sure as I begin training again with my husband for uke
(and nage) I will get a chance to check the effectiveness of
the techniques without actually throwing.

Then, transportation permitting. visit our friends at the local
dojo. First I need to get another hakama. I actually trained so
much in the old days both the ones from Japan with the indigo
dye fell apart, and they are sturdily made with the heavy fabric
that gets softer and fuller with age (if you train enough).

To me, it seems like the concepts of timing are so important.
I remember one of Kanai Sensei's assistants teaching a
Saturday class in Cambridge, Mass. who, if I remember
correctly said something like it's all in the first second or so,
if you're on the street. Then you can do whatever you want. I
think he meant the choice of running, or hitting the person.
As I said, I'm not sure of the exact words, but I'm sure I
reported the concepts he mentioned pretty accurately.

At a YMCA, sometimes people only stop by for one class on
their way to other activities. I remember teaching the irimi
entry where you flatten out, slide in and end up behind the
attacker. Then you can run.

Yes I know there is more to it, but I guess this is a start.

One more thing, I began to really appreciate katate tori during
my last year or so of active teaching and training. It teaches
a person to keep track of where the other person's hands are so
they don't end up in your eyes. I got a scratched cornea a few
years previously and that was quite a lesson to me.

I'm grateful to the forums for bringing back memories and they
have increased my determination to train again. Thank you all.

Diana Frese
12-31-2010, 09:50 AM
Me again, but my husband just came into our little home office and
added a few examples. He and his brother had already trained in
martial arts when I met them thirty years ago at the local Y.
Not trying to sound like a "voice of experience" but I just have
to report what he urged me to mention:

The time I noticed a group of various ages of kids, including
teenagers near some scaffolding where a building was being
repaired in NYC and I was relatively new to Aikido. My purse
flew by with my arm still attached to it (and my body). The
more they tugged the looser my arm got. Finally they gave up
and ran off, probably afraid a patrol car would come by and
notice the struggle. This proved to me how valuable all the
training in relaxed arm grab as uke is, to be able to follow
nage's lead in order to learn the techniques with a lot of turns...

Even before, when I had just begun at NYAikikai and had
three school years of judo and one term of Aikido before graduation
previously, a friend from college was interested in what
I was studying. He grabbed both wrists. He was a football
player .... American football, that is. Somehow I ended up
behind him and poked him between the shoulder blades,
nobody could have been more surprised than I, wondering
how I got there.

I don't think my Aikido ever looked that tough, but at NY
Aikikai in the sixties you had to throw and be thrown and
Yamada Sensei had that emphasis on basics and solid
technique he is famous for. My ukemi wasn't that great but
at least I was in there practicing with the rest of them....

To this day, my husband says he is amazed by the solidity if
you grab my arm it's just channeled from the center and hard
to budge it. Even at my age you never lose that if you've worked
on it as part of your daily training even years previously.

One more thing, his brother was grabbed by two people and
they went flying. From my husbands description of what his
brother told him it looked just like one of the popular techniques
from two hand grab by two people, bring them in and throw
them out.... I'm sure you all know this one.

Sorry to take up all this space at once, but I joined this thread
late and my husband took to the question immediately and
enthusiastically.

Anjisan
12-31-2010, 09:53 AM
You could also say, But which is more socially responsible? Working to provide for your self and family or spending the exact same amount of time that you now spend at the work tutoring disadvantaged kids, or volunteering at a shelter for battered women, or building houses, or...

Or you could say, But which is more socially responsible? Sitting at the table and eating your meals at home or spending the exact same amount of time that you now spend eating at home tutoring disadvantaged kids, or volunteering at a shelter for battered women, or building houses, or...

In order to be socially responsible, charitable, etc you have to be alive and healthy.

Practicing a martial art may be one of the fundamental things to do to be alive, safe and healthy.

David

Good Point! Or as I like to say, remain upright and breathing and therefore live life! Also, perhaps one could tutor disadvantaged kids in the art of Aikido. Further, one could set up expectations with the kids that if they want to train they have to do so well academically. At the the end of the day, all concerned could be better people who make good choices to stay out of trouble in the first place and learn self-defence for the possibility that trouble finds them.

Petlev
01-01-2011, 05:37 PM
"Why do you hate freedom?"

Yay for loaded questions.

Sorry, been away and haven't had to check the responses.

Why is it a loaded question?

Petlev
01-01-2011, 05:44 PM
I believe the whole statement is "Why do you hate freedom, motherhood and apple pie?!"

But yeah, it's baiting.
Actually, I sort of avoided this thread until now because the subject seems like a giant tackle-box.

Not for nothing, but so far I have noticed only women have a problem with my question. Why is that?

Is it not a fair question to ask people who are studying an art why they say it won't work?

Personally, I don't think either of you have any idea what a loaded question or baiting is.

I am an Aikidoka who has seen Aikido (actual technique) work in a real situation (twice) and wondering why people on here who study say it doesn't.

Petlev
01-01-2011, 05:47 PM
And how many aikidoka who don't "still suck" are really in any position to know if their aikido is any good for self-defense? Just how many so-called "self-defense" situations is the average not-sucky aikidoka encountering on a daily or even yearly basis?

This works both ways. You can't say it won't work either.

Petlev
01-01-2011, 05:48 PM
I can dig the idea that there are faster ways to get to the point where you can "defend yourself", but overall I think that aikidoka are convinced aikido isn't good for self defense because they either still suck or are afraid of failure.

I think it's because they think they have to pull off a kotegaishi or shihonage for their Aikido to work. To me, stopping the threat is Aikido.

mathewjgano
01-01-2011, 07:12 PM
I think it's because they think they have to pull off a kotegaishi or shihonage for their Aikido to work. To me, stopping the threat is Aikido.
Well there is some room for different opinions as to what, exactly, Aikido is. I tend to think like you here, in that, if I do better because of my Aikido training, "my Aikido" worked. But to be nit-picky, stopping a threat can be any number of things that is not Aikido: Running over someone who threatened you is stopping a threat, but it isn't necessarily Aikido, right?
Personally, I don't think either of you have any idea what a loaded question or baiting is.
If I may (and even if I may not), I'd suggest sticking with your first tact (the question) and also not bringing up gender as if being female had anything to do with it. This topic is old and sticky and has tended to bring out the "best" in people in the past...so their comments seem to make sense to me.

kironin
01-01-2011, 07:17 PM
I have read hundreds of pages of threads over the last few weeks here on Aikiweb, and have noticed many threads concerning the effectiveness Aikido ...

So please, tell me again..why do Aikidoka say Aikido does not work for self defense?

As popular as aikiweb is, the number of participants is a small minority of those practicing aikido world wide and the simple answer is that your survey is quite biased. What you are reading is a self-selective sampling. It's only natural those who have questions or concerns would be the ones that would make the effort to find and post on this forum. Those that don't or feel they are getting sufficient answers in their training probably won't be found on here posting about such topics except maybe in response. It's very common for online forums to have the same questions asked over and over in many different threads. That's why FAQs came into being on the internet in the first place.

Since such questions of effectiveness really come down to personal competence, training competence, and teacher competence rather than the art itself, and much to do with assessment of competence is subjective, this makes for never ending online discussion. When you have conflict, nothing is perfect and any human being can be cut down by another on any given day. Your training may lower the possibility but it can't make it zero, so the outcome of any given story really doesn't provide an answer either.

Also there is often a confusion about the differences between self-defense and fighting.

lbb
01-02-2011, 11:33 AM
Is it not a fair question to ask people who are studying an art why they say it won't work?

If you were asking those who say it won't work, then yes, it would be a fair question. But you're not. You're asking the members of an aikido forum, who hold a diversity of opinions about whether aikido will "work" and what that means. Call it a quibble, but we've had an awful lot of discussions here go veering off into the weeds due to a failure to define terms.

Personally, I don't think either of you have any idea what a loaded question or baiting is.

I think you're wrong, but if what you're getting at is that you didn't intend it to be a loaded question, I have no problem accepting that.

I am an Aikidoka who has seen Aikido (actual technique) work in a real situation (twice) and wondering why people on here who study say it doesn't.

I think it's a legitimate question, but not when constructed as a strawman. It's fodder for a good discussion if you cite a statement in which so-and-so claims that aikido won't "work" (as defined by...?) because of thus-and-such. it's the open-ended question "Why do Aikidoka say Aikido does not work?" that I have trouble with. I think the only correct answer is, "They don't." :D

graham christian
01-02-2011, 12:05 PM
As popular as aikiweb is, the number of participants is a small minority of those practicing aikido world wide and the simple answer is that your survey is quite biased. What you are reading is a self-selective sampling. It's only natural those who have questions or concerns would be the ones that would make the effort to find and post on this forum. Those that don't or feel they are getting sufficient answers in their training probably won't be found on here posting about such topics except maybe in response. It's very common for online forums to have the same questions asked over and over in many different threads. That's why FAQs came into being on the internet in the first place.

Since such questions of effectiveness really come down to personal competence, training competence, and teacher competence rather than the art itself, and much to do with assessment of competence is subjective, this makes for never ending online discussion. When you have conflict, nothing is perfect and any human being can be cut down by another on any given day. Your training may lower the possibility but it can't make it zero, so the outcome of any given story really doesn't provide an answer either.

Also there is often a confusion about the differences between self-defense and fighting.

Well put.

Tony Wagstaffe
01-02-2011, 05:15 PM
I think we should end this one and say that aikido taught as it was originally did work for real life scenario's.....
But the way most of it is practised now beggar's belief......:hypno: :rolleyes: ........

Hellis
01-02-2011, 05:25 PM
I think we should end this one and say that aikido taught as it was originally did work for real life scenario's.....
But the way most of it is practised now beggar's belief......:hypno: :rolleyes: ........

I take it that you did not get a bunch of coloured ribbons for Christmas ? :)

Henry

Henry Ellis
http://tadashi-abe.blogspot.com/

Tony Wagstaffe
01-02-2011, 05:30 PM
I take it that you did not get a bunch of coloured ribbons for Christmas ? :)

Henry

Henry Ellis
http://tadashi-abe.blogspot.com/

Did you get the ones I sent you Henry? :hypno:

Someone sent me some floppy ears, but no fluffy tail........

Hellis
01-02-2011, 05:35 PM
Did you get the ones I sent you Henry? :hypno:

Yes I did !! nearly bloody strangled myself with them, maybe I didn't have the right music, or perhaps I had the lights going the wrong way ?? :D

Henry

Henry Ellis
http://tadashi-abe.blogspot.com/

Tony Wagstaffe
01-02-2011, 06:12 PM
Yes I did !! nearly bloody strangled myself with them, maybe I didn't have the right music, or perhaps I had the lights going the wrong way ?? :D

Henry

Henry Ellis
http://tadashi-abe.blogspot.com/

How about me doing the bunny tussle with some ribbons tied round me whatsit and you do the raving looney ribbon dance with a pair of hognail boots.... reckon we might make a few bob doing a seminar on it......:hypno: :D

I'm sure someone could help us with the lights and the disco to go with it.....

Petlev
01-03-2011, 12:59 AM
As popular as aikiweb is, the number of participants is a small minority of those practicing aikido world wide and the simple answer is that your survey is quite biased.

I realize that. But I also realize that the people who take learning more seriously would also post here. I could be wrong. None the less, there is no bias involved. I formed an opinion based on reading many, many posts.

What you are reading is a self-selective sampling. It's only natural those who have questions or concerns would be the ones that would make the effort to find and post on this forum. Those that don't or feel they are getting sufficient answers in their training probably won't be found on here posting about such topics except maybe in response.

Happening to have studied statistics in order to achieve my degree, I am very familiar with a self-selective bias. But not in the way you you present it here. Like I said above, I would believe that the more serious student would be a member of forums such as these. But like you said in the last part of the quote above, that they would respond to such questions, not ask them, that is where my concern comes from. It is not the newbie asking if Aikido works, it's the shodan who says "no" in response, that I am questioning.

Also there is often a confusion about the differences between self-defense and fighting.

I agree, and I also referred to this in my original post.

Petlev
01-03-2011, 01:03 AM
If you were asking those who say it won't work, then yes, it would be a fair question. But you're not. You're asking the members of an aikido forum, who hold a diversity of opinions about whether aikido will "work" and what that means. Call it a quibble, but we've had an awful lot of discussions here go veering off into the weeds due to a failure to define terms.

I am questioning the same forum for which I derived to the conclusion that many long time training Aikidoka say Aikido does not work. So again, is it not a fair question to ask on a forum where people have said it does not work?

I think you're wrong, but if what you're getting at is that you didn't intend it to be a loaded question, I have no problem accepting that.

That's fine with me.

I think it's a legitimate question, but not when constructed as a strawman. It's fodder for a good discussion if you cite a statement in which so-and-so claims that aikido won't "work" (as defined by...?) because of thus-and-such. it's the open-ended question "Why do Aikidoka say Aikido does not work?" that I have trouble with. I think the only correct answer is, "They don't." :D

You pretend that my entire first post consisted only of the question of Aikidoka saying it does not work. If you read my whole post, the context of the question should have been very clear. Perhaps I should have clarified myself by adding "Why do Aikiodka on Aikiweb say Aikido does not work?"

Tony Wagstaffe
01-03-2011, 03:33 AM
"Why do Aikiodka on Aikiweb say Aikido does not work?"

'Cause we all know they are not doing aikido, but an exercise art derived from it, but "they" haven't quite figured it out yet......;)

Hellis
01-03-2011, 03:50 AM
"Why do Aikiodka on Aikiweb say Aikido does not work?"

'Cause we all know they are not doing aikido, but an exercise art derived from it, but "they" haven't quite figured it out yet......;)

TK Chiba Sensei said to me " So many call their dojos Aikido / Martial Arts clubs, in truth they are little more than social clubs ".

Henry
Henry Ellis
http://tadashi-abe.blogspot.com/

Tony Wagstaffe
01-03-2011, 03:54 AM
Aha Henry, Good morning to you, tripped over any more ribbons of late?
I'm thinking of joining the playboy club....:D

Hellis
01-03-2011, 04:20 AM
Aha Henry, Good morning to you, tripped over any more ribbons of late?
I'm thinking of joining the playboy club....:D

I have already given up the ribbons as they are potentially dangerous. I am now trying to light up a 100watt bulb in the palm of my hand, not in the interest of Ki I should add, but more in an attempt to cut my ever increasing electricity bills.

Henry Ellis
http://rik-ellis.blogspot.com/

Tony Wagstaffe
01-03-2011, 04:48 AM
I have already given up the ribbons as they are potentially dangerous. I am now trying to light up a 100watt bulb in the palm of my hand, not in the interest of Ki I should add, but more in an attempt to cut my ever increasing electricity bills.

Henry Ellis
http://rik-ellis.blogspot.com/

Yes, having some trouble myself, I keep willing them to come on, but nothing happens, maybe I'm not breathing through my toes enough??

:hypno: :hypno: :D

lbb
01-03-2011, 07:18 AM
You pretend that my entire first post consisted only of the question of Aikidoka saying it does not work. If you read my whole post, the context of the question should have been very clear. Perhaps I should have clarified myself by adding "Why do Aikiodka on Aikiweb say Aikido does not work?"

Do you believe that everyone on aikiweb says that aikido doesn't work?

Do you believe that the large majority of people on aikiweb say that aikido doesn't work?

Hellis
01-03-2011, 07:37 AM
Do you believe that everyone on aikiweb says that aikido doesn't work?

Do you believe that the large majority of people on aikiweb say that aikido doesn't work?

I would say ``no`` to both questions...

Henry Ellis

http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/

ravenest
01-04-2011, 09:13 PM
IMO - becasue instead of looking at it holistically and learning the valuible principles which may improve their life and other martial arts they undertake, they have mistaken its (modern ? ) intent to be a martial arts system of self defence?

Tony Wagstaffe
01-05-2011, 11:30 AM
IMO - becasue instead of looking at it holistically and learning the valuible principles which may improve their life and other martial arts they undertake, they have mistaken its (modern ? ) intent to be a martial arts system of self defence?

Nothing holistic about wanting to learn self defence which aikido is.....:straightf

SteliosPapadakis
01-05-2011, 02:29 PM
"Why do Aikidoka on Aikiweb say Aikido does not work?"

do not know...
i used it at least over three very difficult situations in my life and it worked out fine in all aspects

Tony Wagstaffe
01-06-2011, 12:55 PM
"Why do Aikidoka on Aikiweb say Aikido does not work?"

do not know...
i used it at least over three very difficult situations in my life and it worked out fine in all aspects

Well done Stelios!!!!:) :D ;)

Cyril Landise
01-07-2011, 04:57 PM
My experience is that Aikido can't be "used" on anyone but yourself. It is a training method, or way, to learn the power of harmonious action. Boxers don’t “use” a jump rope in the ring, that doesn’t mean that jumping rope is not an effective way to train. These skills can then be taken into life to apply as desired. The best real-life Aikido “street stories” are, to me, when nothing happened.

Tony Wagstaffe
01-07-2011, 10:14 PM
My experience is that Aikido can't be "used" on anyone but yourself. It is a training method, or way, to learn the power of harmonious action. Boxers don't "use" a jump rope in the ring, that doesn't mean that jumping rope is not an effective way to train. These skills can then be taken into life to apply as desired. The best real-life Aikido "street stories" are, to me, when nothing happened.

Then you've been lucky so far..............:straightf

Hellis
01-08-2011, 04:31 AM
Then you've been lucky so far..............:straightf

There appears to be a lot of ` lucky` people out there.

With reference to the original question, In the 1950s early 60s when Aikido was practised as a martial art. I have no memory of that question ``ever`` being asked, that was a time before Ki ribbons and breathing through your toes, if a student dared to breath from the rear could result in him being sent out of the dojo..We did not understand then that he was releasing his Ki power.
I can understand why the question is asked now :straightf

Henry Ellis
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/

Petlev
01-08-2011, 08:15 AM
Do you believe that everyone on aikiweb says that aikido doesn't work?

Do you believe that the large majority of people on aikiweb say that aikido doesn't work?

No and no. Irrelivant. Never said everyone did.

Petlev
01-08-2011, 08:16 AM
"Why do Aikidoka on Aikiweb say Aikido does not work?"

do not know...
i used it at least over three very difficult situations in my life and it worked out fine in all aspects

Yasou file.

Zach Trent
01-08-2011, 12:57 PM
Wow-

I was pretty inspired by the first poster to respond...but reading the responses sort of killed my passion a bit, but anyway I'll try.

You really have to think about the context for which you are asking the question.

Who says it isn't working? What does it mean to work?

These are important questions and they highlight your own working assumptions. You have an idea of what it means "to work" for your own life and are thus applying things like distancing, timing, etc. that you derive from training and are hoping that these things "work" for you in a situation that, likely, you have invented in your head.

In which situation does your aikido work? Think about it- you likely have a very specific scenario in mind. You might ask yourself even who is the enemy in your fantasy- how do they respond to you? What do the look like? (or, if you wanna go real deep, what color are they?)

I dunno- maybe not.

The reason I say it doesn't work in a fight is that I don't want to use it in a fight. For many years I had to make excuses that I need Aikido to "work" for this bullshit endram scenario that I had looping in my head.

Now, I see I am doing Aikido because it is a healing exercise that allows me to undo physical trauma I experienced as a kid. Aikido is healing for me, it is not preparing me for a martial situation. I have to be intentional about that because it is a shift from my earlier "karate" way of thinking.

What do you want? Aikido is love, right? Is love getting ready to fight somebody? It is all about what you put into your body and what you put into your mind, but you should be aware of what scenario you are afraid of and which vulnerability you are running away from.

Aikido forces you to feel your vulnerabilities and to become intimate with them- not to pretend they aren't there. No one wants to be vulnerable in front of someone, so we go to great lengths to tell ourselves we aren't- we spend a lot of money, time, and energy convincing ourselves that we are protected from the intentions of others.

Why doesn't Aikido work? How do you want it to work? On whom? Live the scenario where you are the hero saving someone...but I hope it never happens for you.

Of course- the natural reaction is "this is fecking stupid- don't do a martial art that doesn't work man you are fecking stupid!" I don't want it to work on anyone- that is why it doesn't work. It is an exercise that lets me let enemies and friends get close to me- I'm finally not preoccupied with my death or my vulnerability. For me it is a much better way to live than to always be ready to kill somebody.

Am I going to let someone stab me, or rape me? I doubt it ;) But I'll deal with that if it comes up.

Last night I got attacked by some dudes big ole dog- the dog thought he was protecting his owner because his owner was scavenging for food and I got a little to close to the food source. The dog jumped up to snag my arm- I stepped back, jerking my sweater out his mouth. I was in hamni, looking at the dog and waiting.Pretty weird zanshin moment there. I surprised myself by being calm and curious as to what was going to happen.

The guy grabs his dog and starts shouting at him. I kept on walking. To me this was my aikido- I protected myself but did not go on and on being pissed off at this owner- in fact I was pretty happy to see how my body reacted to this stress. The dog thought he was doing a good thing, but a year ago I would have tore into the owner about being a better this and that blah blah blah.

I didn't have that scenario in my head when I started doing martial arts- but the scenarios I did have were all bullshit scenarios I made up based on my own vulnerabilities and fear of the "other".

This is to say- meditate on whom you want your aikido to work- when was the last time you fought this person/group of people. Can you let go of this fantasy of getting ready to fight and simply live your life?

SteliosPapadakis
01-08-2011, 02:14 PM
Yasou file.

Yasoy kai esena
Na eisai kala!
:)

kewms
01-08-2011, 02:47 PM
This is to say- meditate on whom you want your aikido to work- when was the last time you fought this person/group of people. Can you let go of this fantasy of getting ready to fight and simply live your life?

Zach wins the thread....

That's why these threads don't interest me much anymore.

Katherine

Dave de Vos
01-08-2011, 05:29 PM
I didn't start aikido expecting it to be the ultimate deadliest martial art. I've hardly ever been in a situation where I felt in serious danger of being physically harmed by aggression.

Actually, I can remember only two situations from 20 years ago when I was 18 to 20 years old and sometimes going out to places where I knew few people and where some of the locals decided I didn't belong there. In only one occasion I actually got a few hits by group of guys under the influence of drugs at a big house party. As soon as I realized my situation I ran off. I had some bruises, but that was all. I doubt that aikido or any other martial art would have helped. At best I might have kept my honor at the cost of more damage to me and others.

So self defence on the street is a very minor issue for me. I do aikido because I like it, a lot.

Tony Wagstaffe
01-08-2011, 09:49 PM
I didn't start aikido expecting it to be the ultimate deadliest martial art. I've hardly ever been in a situation where I felt in serious danger of being physically harmed by aggression.

Actually, I can remember only two situations from 20 years ago when I was 18 to 20 years old and sometimes going out to places where I knew few people and where some of the locals decided I didn't belong there. In only one occasion I actually got a few hits by group of guys under the influence of drugs at a big house party. As soon as I realized my situation I ran off. I had some bruises, but that was all. I doubt that aikido or any other martial art would have helped. At best I might have kept my honor at the cost of more damage to me and others.

So self defence on the street is a very minor issue for me. I do aikido because I like it, a lot.

Bully for you......

Hellis
01-09-2011, 07:25 AM
Bully for you......

Its all uphill Tony :)

One could always defend themselves with a stern look and challenge the assailant with a " lets see who has the best exersise routine ?"

Henry Ellis
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/

Tony Wagstaffe
01-09-2011, 09:11 AM
Its all uphill Tony :)

One could always defend themselves with a stern look and challenge the assailant with a " lets see who has the best exersise routine ?"

Henry Ellis
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/

Henry,

I kinda like uphill...... its surprising how it clears the head......;)

I think I'm developing "ki" at last ooooohhhh!! :p

Tony

Tony Wagstaffe
01-09-2011, 01:49 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08BqaSuEE_w&feature=related
:D :D

Hellis
01-09-2011, 02:37 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08BqaSuEE_w&feature=related
:D :D

Ahhhhhhh the origins of Ki...breathing through the flat cap.

Henry Ellis
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/

SteliosPapadakis
01-09-2011, 02:42 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08BqaSuEE_w&feature=related
:D :D

:D :D :D

Tony Wagstaffe
01-09-2011, 05:22 PM
Ahhhhhhh the origins of Ki...breathing through the flat cap.

Henry Ellis
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/

Oh ai .............ecky thump master I be....:D ;)

Tony Wagstaffe
01-09-2011, 05:49 PM
Say to yourself I am good at aikido.........Breath uuuummm uuuummm and look into the centre uuuumm uuuummmm
grab hold of your weapon and extend yourself uuuummm uuuummmm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lu3VpGRvnYg&feature=related

When you awake you will be invincible.......:rolleyes:

Hellis
01-10-2011, 06:25 AM
Say to yourself I am good at aikido.........Breath uuuummm uuuummm and look into the centre uuuumm uuuummmm
grab hold of your weapon and extend yourself uuuummm uuuummmm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lu3VpGRvnYg&feature=related

When you awake you will be invincible.......:rolleyes:

I hope your not suggesting they are not already invincible :D

Henry Ellis
http://rik-ellis.blogspot.com/

RioSensei
01-10-2011, 09:47 AM
I have to ask the question...if these "aikidoka" believe that aikido is ineffective, then are they truely aikidoka? And, why are they not studying an art which they believe works? Just my thought...

Tony Wagstaffe
01-10-2011, 10:00 AM
I have to ask the question...if these "aikidoka" believe that aikido is ineffective, then are they truely aikidoka? And, why are they not studying an art which they believe works? Just my thought...

'Cause as I keep saying they are all in denial...... :rolleyes:

Tony Wagstaffe
01-10-2011, 10:06 AM
I hope your not suggesting they are not already invincible :D

Henry Ellis
http://rik-ellis.blogspot.com/

'Spose we could hand out some ribbons to get 'em in the mood?

:D :D

RioSensei
01-10-2011, 10:06 AM
That was my thought, Tony, but sometimes its good to get a little confirmation from another mind.

Hellis
01-10-2011, 11:43 AM
'Spose we could hand out some ribbons to get 'em in the mood?

:D :D

OK, if you want to get them in the mood, you get the ribbons.

I will get the music and the strobe lights.:hypno:

Henry Ellis
http://rik-ellis.blogspot.com/

Tony Wagstaffe
01-10-2011, 12:04 PM
OK, if you want to get them in the mood, you get the ribbons.

I will get the music and the strobe lights.:hypno:

Henry Ellis
http://rik-ellis.blogspot.com/

I'll do Zulu warrior down to me boots and , Henry will you compère ?
:D :D

Phil Van Treese
01-10-2011, 02:15 PM
Why would you train hard in something that doesn't work???? I have said it before and I'll say it again that aikido works. It has worked for me in Viet Nam especially otherwise I wouldn't be here now. It worked when I was a deputy sheriff and had to take a few "bad guys" down. You will fight the way you train. You have to, if possible, to show confidence and have confidence in yourself. If you lack confidence in yourself and your abilities, then you will have nothing and I don't care how hard you train.

Tony Wagstaffe
01-10-2011, 02:26 PM
Why would you train hard in something that doesn't work???? I have said it before and I'll say it again that aikido works. It has worked for me in Viet Nam especially otherwise I wouldn't be here now. It worked when I was a deputy sheriff and had to take a few "bad guys" down. You will fight the way you train. You have to, if possible, to show confidence and have confidence in yourself. If you lack confidence in yourself and your abilities, then you will have nothing and I don't care how hard you train.

Spot on Phil.....;) :)

sakumeikan
01-11-2011, 01:14 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08BqaSuEE_w&feature=related
:D :D

Tony,
Brilliant stuff.Mr Enfield and associates were great.Loved the Kokyu nage. Lets have more of the same.
Thanks, Joe.

Tony Wagstaffe
01-11-2011, 03:28 PM
Wish all my ukes were like this.....:p

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_OL42WVwdA&feature=fvw :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAm1WdFTqKQ&feature=related :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=giDT_BvSfsA&feature=related :D

In truth, it's exetremely difficult to get out of any rear neck choke..... If applied for real....
But it's good to teach for awareness to ones rear...... :p

Tony Wagstaffe
01-11-2011, 03:43 PM
Real aiki... stay relaxed, move away from punches, block when close, stay centred..... take the head.... irimi
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GCd5gjSnS7k&feature=related :straightf

Phil Van Treese
01-12-2011, 07:05 AM
This is to answer St Matt's question to me:

I used Aikido in Viet Nam more than once. I was with the 1st Infantry Division, attached to the ROK (Republic of Korea) Tiger division in Viet Nam. While we did a lot of ground pounding, at one time my regiment had to chase and destroy a NVA brigade that was around Tay Ninh that was harassing our troops. We chased them all the way thru Cambodia, caught them in Laos and wiped them out to the last, which was our mission by the CG (Commanding General) Westmoreland. I also did extractions. If you have ever seen the "Green Berets" with John Wayne, that is pretty close to what we did. We had "Targets" that we had to bring back, DOA (dead or alive). Aikido definately saved my life over there more than once. So those people that say aikido doesn't work are not really serious about their training, have never used it or they have no confidence in their abilities.

OwlMatt
01-24-2011, 10:37 AM
I have read hundreds of pages of threads over the last few weeks here on Aikiweb, and have noticed many threads concerning the effectiveness Aikido on the street, or against a boxer, or against a BJJ/MMA person, etc. I have also noticed Aikidoka of all levels claiming it isn't effective, or "if you're taking Aikido for self defense, you are looking in the wrong place", etc. My question is why? I mean we have many people who have never even stepped into a dojo who knock it's martial effectiveness, but why do Aikidoka who have put many hours in training, also agree?
I have said that many times, not because I think aikido doesn't work, but because there are much more efficient ways of learning self-defense. If your only goal is self-defense, then you're better off going to a krav maga gym, where cultivating a state of mind and preserving a tradition are lower priorities than self-defense. As aikidoka, we choose to make self-defense skills only one priority among many.

Anjisan
01-24-2011, 01:12 PM
I have said that many times, not because I think aikido doesn't work, but because there are much more efficient ways of learning self-defense. If your only goal is self-defense, then you're better off going to a krav maga gym, where cultivating a state of mind and preserving a tradition are lower priorities than self-defense. As aikidoka, we choose to make self-defense skills only one priority among many.

Well said and I agree. It is just that some Aikidoka don't even have self-defence on the list as a priority, like training is just pottery class or something.

OwlMatt
01-24-2011, 04:24 PM
Well said and I agree. It is just that some Aikidoka don't even have self-defence on the list as a priority, like training is just pottery class or something.

I have seen the same, and while I'm sure there are some benefits of this, I think it robs aikido of much of its spiritual power.

In general, most of the greatest spiritual benefits of the martial arts come from the opportunity to face our own fear, pain, and insecurity. If we train our aikido as a dance, we deny ourselves this opportunity.

Aikido in particular is supposed to be a microcosm of the way we live our lives. If we are not training our aiki movements as a means of resolving conflict, I think our aiki spirit will be similarly deficient.