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osaya
12-28-2010, 05:13 PM
maai is always emphasised in aikido. but what if, for whatever reasons, e.g you are in an enclosed place, you can't keep moving back to establish an ideal maai, and uke is inching towards you slowly but surely, with say a boxing stance on (or a tanto).

now, if uke is within say jabbing distance, and decides to give you a few non-committed punches (i.e. jabs) to start with and maybe some leg takedowns soon after (or if with a knife, a few shallow swings and light stabs), how is an aikidoka supposed to theoretically respond to such an approach where maai is gone, and the ability to lead an over-committed attack is severely diminished?

thoughts and opinions most welcomed.

Keith Larman
12-28-2010, 05:58 PM
Irimi...

Eric Joyce
12-28-2010, 06:12 PM
maai is always emphasised in aikido. but what if, for whatever reasons, e.g you are in an enclosed place, you can't keep moving back to establish an ideal maai, and uke is inching towards you slowly but surely, with say a boxing stance on (or a tanto).

now, if uke is within say jabbing distance, and decides to give you a few non-committed punches (i.e. jabs) to start with and maybe some leg takedowns soon after (or if with a knife, a few shallow swings and light stabs), how is an aikidoka supposed to theoretically respond to such an approach where maai is gone, and the ability to lead an over-committed attack is severely diminished?

thoughts and opinions most welcomed.

Good question. Depends on how close the quarters are in your example. Although irimi may work, if you're in closers quarters (an airplane aisle, bar, whatever...that may not be the ideal choice. Your movements will definitely be shorter in movements and rather than the flowery spins or wide pivots, you will need to shorten the execution of your movement and technique. If you want to give it a go, set up a small quarters area in your dojo with extra mats or whatever to create a tight quarters and carry out your scenarios and see what the results are. Analyse the results and try different ways to execute in smaller environments. The principles are all there, it's just trying them in a different scenario.

Tony Wagstaffe
12-28-2010, 06:12 PM
maai is always emphasised in aikido. but what if, for whatever reasons, e.g you are in an enclosed place, you can't keep moving back to establish an ideal maai, and uke is inching towards you slowly but surely, with say a boxing stance on (or a tanto).

now, if uke is within say jabbing distance, and decides to give you a few non-committed punches (i.e. jabs) to start with and maybe some leg takedowns soon after (or if with a knife, a few shallow swings and light stabs), how is an aikidoka supposed to theoretically respond to such an approach where maai is gone, and the ability to lead an over-committed attack is severely diminished?

thoughts and opinions most welcomed.

Go in as hard as you possibly can....... Do not, I repeat, do not let them up, preferably unconscious comes to mind....

RED
12-28-2010, 06:23 PM
Irimi...

I second :cool:

odudog
12-28-2010, 07:43 PM
I second :cool:

I third, if that is the correct thing. I'm at a loss right now.

Also, time for some old school aikido {a.k.a. aikibudo a.k.a. aikijujitsu} to be applied. You need to take the cooperative dojo aikido and change it to effective aikido.

RED
12-28-2010, 08:15 PM
I third, if that is the correct thing. I'm at a loss right now.

Also, time for some old school aikido {a.k.a. aikibudo a.k.a. aikijujitsu} to be applied. You need to take the cooperative dojo aikido and change it to effective aikido.

irimi=enter=take center

tim evans
12-28-2010, 11:00 PM
T-Rex aikido

SeiserL
12-29-2010, 06:06 AM
Move their center by moving your center (and feet).

I personally like my Aikido in strike/grab range, my strike/grab range not theirs.

RED
12-29-2010, 07:45 AM
Move their center by moving your center (and feet).

I personally like my Aikido in strike/grab range, my strike/grab range not theirs.

Me too. I'm in an "irimi" er. Some people naturally are tenshin people, some are irimi people I noticed.

lbb
12-29-2010, 08:59 AM
Bust 'em in the face.

Janet Rosen
12-29-2010, 10:34 AM
I'm remembering an old aikido book - its been many many yrs since I had it and I can't be sure but I think it was Shioda - w/ photos of a woman in an elevator?
Anyhow yeah, irimi to whatever is most open and USE the walls to disable the attacker.

mickeygelum
12-29-2010, 11:06 AM
how is an aikidoka supposed to theoretically respond to such an approach where maai is gone, and the ability to lead an over-committed attack is severely diminished?


Given the above...

Keith Larman... Irimi...
Maggie Schill....irimi=enter=take center


Care to explain, the definition of irimi is not really illuminate what occurs.

Move their center by moving your center (and feet).

...Bust 'em in the face.....Go in as hard as you possibly can...

Now those are good solid responses..;)

I third, if that is the correct thing. I'm at a loss right now.

:eek: :confused: :eek: :D

SeiserL
12-29-2010, 11:18 AM
I remember training with Sensei Dye (a police officer) and we had to do all our techniques on one mat (hallway size). Great seminar.

Keith Larman
12-29-2010, 12:12 PM
Mickey:

I wasn't trying to get specific as I think it gets rather complicated to talk about specific techniques when you're in tight. Too many variables. But we do train in things like this periodically. Also being pushed up against a wall scenarios, etc.

But in this case the OP mentioned jabs (deflect and enter) and then said a weapon (don't get stabbed). Hell, if he's got a weapon my goal is going to be putting it someplace safe (which might be between *his* ribs) or busting an arm, or whatever. If it's jabs I might be closing the distance to wrap him up and give him a few shots to the face himself. Or elbow to the chin. Or whatever.

My point was that if space is limited then you really don't have much choice but to go in. Unless you're a trained boxer yourself trading punches isn't exactly a part of general Aikido training. So enter and work in close. But really getting into specifics seems questionable on an on-line forum. Certainly good on the mat for training, just not really so much here. Irimi was just a starting point since running away or making more distance wasn't an option. Don't see many other choices... But once that happens, YMMV and it all depends. Size differences, weapons, training, ...

Take for instance if we're talking about a tight space with a drunken friend, well, I'm probably not going to knock their teeth out or try to break anything. I may try more control oriented "wrap him up" things just to protect him and myself. I'd be wrapping him up trying to get my center over his using walls, etc. and get him down without causing anyone any damage. Heck, I sprained my knee just 2 weeks ago working in our instructors' class being the "aggressive drunken family member" where three others tried to subdue me without hurting me. Unfortunately an old injury didn't like when all three loaded up one side of me... Regardless, there's a lot of variables and I see this one as a "let's get on the mat and work on it" kind of area.

Keith Larman
12-29-2010, 12:34 PM
Oops, should have said "Michael" up above. In my defense, my brother-in-law took my daughter to Disneyland today so I had Mickey on my mind...

Amassus
12-29-2010, 01:32 PM
Oops, should have said "Michael" up above. In my defense, my brother-in-law took my daughter to Disneyland today so I had Mickey on my mind...

I just had an image of Keith taking on Mickey mouse in close quarters.
:D

mickeygelum
12-29-2010, 01:52 PM
Oops, should have said "Michael" up above. In my defense, my brother-in-law took my daughter to Disneyland today so I had Mickey on my mind...

@ Kieth ...Mickey is just fine...:D
"Michael", usually means I am in hot water!:rolleyes:

Thanks for the response, at least you are aware of the distance issue.
Closing the distance with the your body, as opposed to closing the distance with a hip rotation/footwork (thus,deflection and control/destruction) is what I was looking for. Lynn stated it outright in his post.

We have trained in hallways, stairwells, buses..lavatory stalls...you never know where the feces will collide with the propeller!

@Dean...and that Mickey, No-Mouse , to you ! :D

Train well,

Mickey

Tony Wagstaffe
12-29-2010, 02:26 PM
@ Kieth ...Mickey is just fine...:D
"Michael", usually means I am in hot water!:rolleyes:

Thanks for the response, at least you are aware of the distance issue.
Closing the distance with the your body, as opposed to closing the distance with a hip rotation/footwork (thus,deflection and control/destruction) is what I was looking for. Lynn stated it outright in his post.

We have trained in hallways, stairwells, buses..lavatory stalls...you never know where the feces will collide with the propeller!

@Dean...and that Mickey, No-Mouse , to you ! :D

Train well,

Mickey

Tried a cab yet.....;) :D

Dash is a good place!!!!:D

Keith Larman
12-29-2010, 02:29 PM
Okay, Mickey... :)

I understand what you're saying completely and agree. "Move your feet!" is probably one of the most common phrases that comes out of my mouth on the mat.

Lyle Laizure
12-29-2010, 09:17 PM
No matter how small the space there should be some wiggle room. If it doesn't exist you make it exist with atemi and you just keep pressing forward (irimi) followed by more atemi.

osaya
12-29-2010, 11:17 PM
thanks everyone for their responses so far...

sounds like the consensus is more or less using an irimi approach, and possibly with a fair dose of assertive/aggressive atemi for good measure.

Move their center by moving your center (and feet).

I personally like my Aikido in strike/grab range, my strike/grab range not theirs.

Lynn, how do you mean when you say "move their center by moving your center"? Could you please give a specific illustration to help me visualise that?

Also when you speak about your vs. their strike/grab range, wouldn't it more or less be the same?

Thanks in advance.

onegai shimasu.

Amir Krause
12-30-2010, 03:40 AM
Your movements will definitely be shorter in movements and rather than the flowery spins or wide pivots, you will need to shorten the execution of your movement and technique.

You need to take the cooperative dojo aikido and change it to effective aikido.

I believe these two statements are true for any physical altercation. If you are in a fight - do not expect your partner to cooperate, a fight is not a practice. Cooperation is only good at some (early) learning stages.
Large flowery spins and wide pivots are only suited to extremely fast attacks, where one can not take the momentum otherwise. In all other situations, the aikido movement should be small. I know my perspective in this issue might be a bit different - coming from Korindo Aikido which practices small round movements all the time, but whenever I took a look at the very top Aikido experts of other streams, I saw they too tended to keep their movements small.

Mickey:

I wasn't trying to get specific as I think it gets rather complicated to talk about specific techniques when you're in tight. Too many variables. But we do train in things like this periodically. Also being pushed up against a wall scenarios, etc.

But in this case the OP mentioned jabs (deflect and enter) and then said a weapon (don't get stabbed). Hell, if he's got a weapon my goal is going to be putting it someplace safe (which might be between *his* ribs) or busting an arm, or whatever. If it's jabs I might be closing the distance to wrap him up and give him a few shots to the face himself. Or elbow to the chin. Or whatever.

My point was that if space is limited then you really don't have much choice but to go in. Unless you're a trained boxer yourself trading punches isn't exactly a part of general Aikido training. So enter and work in close. But really getting into specifics seems questionable on an on-line forum. Certainly good on the mat for training, just not really so much here. Irimi was just a starting point since running away or making more distance wasn't an option. Don't see many other choices... But once that happens, YMMV and it all depends. Size differences, weapons, training, ...

Take for instance if we're talking about a tight space with a drunken friend, well, I'm probably not going to knock their teeth out or try to break anything. I may try more control oriented "wrap him up" things just to protect him and myself. I'd be wrapping him up trying to get my center over his using walls, etc. and get him down without causing anyone any damage. Heck, I sprained my knee just 2 weeks ago working in our instructors' class being the "aggressive drunken family member" where three others tried to subdue me without hurting me. Unfortunately an old injury didn't like when all three loaded up one side of me... Regardless, there's a lot of variables and I see this one as a "let's get on the mat and work on it" kind of area.

Great post

Amir

DH
12-30-2010, 09:29 AM
I think we should first consider that distance does not and should not change what your body is doing. You should be able to stand in a phone both and generate massive power...then....at any point of contact also be controlling; surprising lifting, crushing, splitting at any contact point. As an example your hand hitting should at the same time possess the ability to control and suppress and then lead into another hit and another from no distance.
I think too many people rely on extension and large movement as some sort of "hard frame" to move from. It is one of the reasons why so many in the aiki arts feel so stiff, when they think they are soft. Real softness is without form, your body should be fluid like jelly, but have power at any point of contact from your foot to your head, we demonstrate this with with people pushing on any body part as you turn into a jello man, and even have people push on our heads and even our noses and do kokyu from our nose! Another way to show it is to create kuzushi (let's say, on their arm) and then walk around and move your body all over while sustaining that kuzushi on contact. We do this while leaving the hand out and then even walking behind the person with our own hand still in front creating kuzushi as we pat them on the back of their head. So, any point of contact from your shin to your knee to your hip waist, chest, out to arm to finger tip is causing equal manipulation or power. Even your hand can be doing something different then your elbow with power generation and direction.
So, were a person truly soft and moving from center, then a hand on any part of your body would produce a controlling winding in the person grabbing or pushing while you are also free to hit with tremendous energy. That being said you should be be able to beat the crap out of anyone in a phone booth. As we say "Big power, in small spaces."
What is rarely considered is how this effect is so prevalent in weapons- touching an opponents sword, or spear and what you can do to simply negate them and cut right through them. We also demonstrate this with someone pushing a neck cut with two hands on the sword, and then us holding a sword with one hand at the very end and stopping their push altogether...then leading their sword. Once proper body conditioning is in place to provide support at the contact point, there are any potential for manipulation (unseen) that drains their power.
Personally, I think these things are the essense of aiki in aikido or Daito ryu and should be a basic test for anyone who thinks they know what aiki is and how it is made. Otherwise we are no more than any other weight lifter doing them dem der martial arts.....and thinking we get it.
Cheers
Dan

sakumeikan
01-01-2011, 02:25 PM
maai is always emphasised in aikido. but what if, for whatever reasons, e.g you are in an enclosed place, you can't keep moving back to establish an ideal maai, and uke is inching towards you slowly but surely, with say a boxing stance on (or a tanto).

now, if uke is within say jabbing distance, and decides to give you a few non-committed punches (i.e. jabs) to start with and maybe some leg takedowns soon after (or if with a knife, a few shallow swings and light stabs), how is an aikidoka supposed to theoretically respond to such an approach where maai is gone, and the ability to lead an over-committed attack is severely diminished?

thoughts and opinions most welcomed.
If the distance factor closes would it be advisable to let anyone
make a movement toward you or try and leglock you? Of course not. This would be stupid. The adage that a good offense is a good defence is the answer.Instead of waiting for your friendly
foe to attack you, move in , and take the initiative.Assuming of course you have exercised all options and a fight is inevitable.

Keith Larman
01-01-2011, 02:36 PM
Dan,

Hey, interesting post. Just a few days ago I was talking with someone about some of these things. How the internal stuff becomes really evident "up tight and personal" especially. How those skills and developing that ability can really make a difference when you can't develop a lot of space or don't have someone doing stupid attacks.

DH
01-02-2011, 11:12 AM
Dan,

Hey, interesting post. Just a few days ago I was talking with someone about some of these things. How the internal stuff becomes really evident "up tight and personal" especially. How those skills and developing that ability can really make a difference when you can't develop a lot of space or don't have someone doing stupid attacks.
Hi Bud
Yes, most certainly true. I also think the most beautiful thing about all of this is the fact that any point can make hard contact, or soft manipulative contact... at a whim and be continuously interchangable...at a whim. The conditioned mind / body has so many more choices than "the straights" who move like everybody else, with a normally untrained body, instead of a budo body, Every move- even our own turning - starts to affect them; whether it is displacing them, or hitting them or both. Think of that hitting power that now also pulls them out of their feet. I can think of nothing in normal martial art technique that can deliver in such a way.
People understand conditioning...they will go on all day about lifting and cardio...talk about other conditioning and they get glassy eyed and it doesn't register. ...till maybe you meet them one day in close maai.;)
Cheers
Dan

Keith Larman
01-02-2011, 04:12 PM
Yup. It had come up because we were training and ended up in a sort of standing grapple. I took his balance and dropped him but he didn't feel *where* I took it from. I thought "maybe I'm not quite as tight-a**ed as before". He gave me the "how the heck did you do that?" look and we got talking.

Tis all good... :)

ninjaqutie
01-04-2011, 05:09 PM
Enter. Hard to punch when they are on top of you. If they have a knife, obviously you have to be wiser with the location you are entering to.