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Chris Evans
12-13-2010, 01:59 PM
What's more generally useful for a Karate-ka based MMA person (if you will allow 4 years of Hapkido training to be MMA related) to start cross-training in: Judo or BJJ, to be a well-rounded fighter/budo-ka?

mathewjgano
12-13-2010, 02:16 PM
What's more generally useful for a Karate-ka based MMA person (if you will allow 4 years of Hapkido training to be MMA related) to start cross-training in: Judo or BJJ, to be a well-rounded fighter/budo-ka?

Isn't BJJ just another take on Judo? A reshaping of emphasis? Considering most MMA these days seem to be BJJ based (per this very casual observation, at any rate), I'm guessing BJJ would be most directly applicable.
My guess, though, is that how well-rounded the training might be is based more on the well-roundedness of those teaching and practicing it at any given school. That is to say, I'm sure there are cases where either BJJ or Judo schools are more narrow in their approach than others with the same name.

Demetrio Cereijo
12-13-2010, 02:16 PM
What's more generally useful for a Karate-ka based MMA person (if you will allow 4 years of Hapkido training to be MMA related) to start cross-training in: Judo or BJJ, to be a well-rounded fighter/budo-ka?

For becoming well rounded: Judo.

For a great ground game: BJJ

grondahl
12-13-2010, 03:50 PM
While I generally agree with Demitrio, it also depends on the clubs in your area. Almost all bjj clubs also train and compete in submission wrestling and many also have mma-classes.

Chris Evans
12-13-2010, 04:20 PM
Isn't BJJ just another take on Judo? A reshaping of emphasis? Considering most MMA these days seem to be BJJ based (per this very casual observation, at any rate), I'm guessing BJJ would be most directly applicable.
My guess, though, is that how well-rounded the training might be is based more on the well-roundedness of those teaching and practicing it at any given school. That is to say, I'm sure there are cases where either BJJ or Judo schools are more narrow in their approach than others with the same name.

Matthew Gano's auto signature syas: "Expose yourself to your deepest fear; after that, fear has no power, and the fear of freedom shrinks and vanishes. You are free" -James Douglas Morrison

My deepest fear is ground fighting/grappling, followed by throwing. My forte, FWIW, would be kicking then punching.

In that sense the BJJ gym (ground grappling focus) would expose my self to my deepest fears while the Judo Club dojo (balanced on throws and ne-waza/ground) would be more well-rounded and complement my years in Hapkido and I'll also get to workout with the old friends at the Youngmudo Club dojo, at the same place.

Both the Judo Club and the BJJ Academy instructors are outstanding, but BJJ's monthly fees cost $120 vs $43 for the Judo Club.

What's temping about BJJ now is that thier new Judo Class instructor is one of my Kyokushin full-contact Karate sensei.

BJJ Academy no longer offers the MMA classes that I enjoyed and got me really really scared and humbled.

ChrisHein
12-13-2010, 06:46 PM
If you have any natural ability, and you train with a good BJJ teacher, in a school with lots of different people you can roll with, you'll pick up enough ground game to beat anyone around your size with no training in only a few months. If you roll and train seriously.

For unarmed training all you really need, unless your going to fight for a living is about:

6 months kickboxing
6 months BJJ
6 months general MMA training
Training daily, with lots of sparring and you'll know a LOT compared to any untrained fellow.

Then you can get over the idea that fighting unarmed is in anyway a good idea and come back to Aikido!!

Tim Fong
12-13-2010, 08:28 PM
If you're in Berkeley, you can check out Modern Combatives. They have an MMA program as well as BJJ. I have wrestled with one of their students; they do teach standup grappling as well as the ground game.

Michael Neal
12-15-2010, 01:28 PM
A good Judo dojo will practice a lot of groundwork so you can hit both fears with the same stone

tenshinaikidoka
12-16-2010, 10:57 AM
In addition to my Aikido, I train in Judo. I have also done BJJ but found judo better for my needs. I would say judo! But like stated before, it depends on exactly what your trying to get out of it. If you have no real ground or throwing experience, I would say Judo definately because you will get both. I am fortunate that my judo dojo does alot of ground work in addition to some fun throwing!!!!!

Chris Evans
12-16-2010, 11:47 AM
I picked Judo, makes more send for a karate-ka, that wishes to do MMA sparring, to improve take-down and throw skills in addition to ground fighting.

After shodan in Judo, would like to get serious about Aikido, which blends well with my former Hapkido.

DonMagee
12-16-2010, 02:10 PM
Chris,

You mention MMA. Does this mean you are looking to compete in MMA competitions? If so then it will depend more on the school's program then the art you train. Otherwise, you can't go wrong with either art, but judo will be much cheaper.

Now if you want to compete in MMA, you need to find a gym that focuses on MMA competition. This will be easier with bjj as it has close ties with MMA. If you go to a judo/bjj school that focuses on sport bjj/judo you will find yourself focusing a lot of time on movements and strategies that do not lend themselves to no-gi (read no shirt and shorts) situations. For example, spending all day practicing gi lapel chokes will not be of much use in the ring. A good MMA gym will not only work with the gi (which I feel is important for other reasons) but will also teach strategies and tactics for the ring and cage. Many a judo practitioner becomes lost when there are no nice handles for him to grab. Conversely, I watched a upper blue belt in bjj last night get completely flustered because his partner was wearing shorts and his tactics relied a lot of the control of the pants.

If you are looking for keeping Japanese culture then judo is a no brainer. It keeps with the bowing, language, and general attitude found in most Japanese arts. If you are looking to focus on jacketed throwing judo is also one of the best places to look. That said, if you are looking to build a solid foundation off your back you can't do better than bjj. While there are judo schools that do well on the ground, they are few and far between and about as rare as bjj clubs that don't start off on their knees and spend frequent time on takedowns.

If you plan to compete in grappling sports you have a different outlook. I love the rules associated with bjj/open grappling. I find judo rules silly, restrictive, and boorish. Keep in mind that in your area one or the other may have many nearby competitions. It is easy for me to find a local bjj competition, judo usually requires me to take a few hour drive. Finally, just because you train in one, you can compete in the other. I highly encourage judo players to go to NAGA or some other grappling tournaments and compete. Working within a less restrictive ruleset can help you develop as a martial artists.

Overall, I love training judo and hate judo competition. I also love bjj and love bjj competitions. Given the choice between the two (assuming I couldn't train both as I do now) I would pick the one with the better gym that made me feel the most at home.

Michael Neal
12-21-2010, 02:32 PM
I do Judo and BJJ in order to minimize any gaps in abilities. Many of the Judo throws involve gripping around the head, waist or with under/over hooks so it would take a very bad Judoka to get lost without a gi to grab on to.

DonMagee
12-21-2010, 02:41 PM
I do Judo and BJJ in order to minimize any gaps in abilities. Many of the Judo throws involve gripping around the head, waist or with under/over hooks so it would take a very bad Judoka to get lost without a gi to grab on to.

Oh you would be surprised. I have yet to meet a judoka who was not a wrestler and knew how to properly use hooks.

Kevin Leavitt
12-21-2010, 11:06 PM
Both Judo and BJJ are good. I personally like the fact that BJJ's methodology/pedogogy is "bottom up". that is, they start from the ground in newaza. I think this is the best place to begin your training.

My criticism of most BJJ schools is the really don't work stand up enough.

My personal preference for progression is BJJ, Judo, Aikido. you should spend in the beginning (IMO) 70% in newaza, 20% in judo type trainng, and 10% in aiki...or something close to that. of course, this isn't the only way to approach it...just what I prefer. You learn alot of good stuff in newaza and it is safe enough and close enough for you to make mistakes and be able to figure out things in a slower, safer, albeit much restrictive method,

Kevin Leavitt
12-21-2010, 11:32 PM
for those looking to train in BJJ and aikido, but don't want (or have) the ability to go to a BJJ dojo etc....check out Roy Dean's instructional vids. They are the most well put together videos that progressively show you how to train on newaza.

http://www.roydeanacademy.com/

Michael Neal
12-22-2010, 12:59 PM
Oh you would be surprised. I have yet to meet a judoka who was not a wrestler and knew how to properly use hooks.

You have yet to meet a Judoka who knows Ippon Seionage, Koshi Garuma, O Goshi, Ura Nage, Kata Garuma, Morote Gari, Tomeo Nage, Harai Makikomi, Tawara Gaeshi etc.?

These are just a few samples of throws easily done without gripping a gi. Some of those use either an under or over hook, others around the head or grabbing a leg or with a body lock.

Plus in reality most people wear clothes, so unless you are at the beach most other Judo throws are perfectly feasible without a gi.

DonMagee
12-22-2010, 02:01 PM
You have yet to meet a Judoka who knows Ippon Seionage, Koshi Garuma, O Goshi, Ura Nage, Kata Garuma, Morote Gari, Tomeo Nage, Harai Makikomi, Tawara Gaeshi etc.?

These are just a few samples of throws easily done without gripping a gi. Some of those use either an under or over hook, others around the head or grabbing a leg or with a body lock.

Plus in reality most people wear clothes, so unless you are at the beach most other Judo throws are perfectly feasible without a gi.

Explain to me how you were taught in judo to acquire kuzushi. I was taught to do all of those throws with a traditional lapel and elbow grip.

It is not the throw that requires the gi. It's the kuzushi. I have never been in a single judo class in my life that has ever once talked about obtaining kuzushi without a gi. I've trained in many judo clubs.

If you are not practicing it in randori and training it in uchi komi you quite simply don't know how to do it. The proof is in the pudding.

Michael Neal
12-22-2010, 03:31 PM
The kuzushi can be achieved by grabbing the wrist or inside the crook of the elbow, or if he is wearing a shirt then you can use the normal Judo grip.

In reality though you don't need as much kusushi when using the throws against non-judoka. Usually If I grab someone around the head as in koshi garuma, dip low, and spin as I lift I can generate a lot of power without even needing a lot of pull. I have used this successfully many times in no go sparring in BJJ also modifying it to either a uchimata or harai.

DonMagee
12-23-2010, 08:09 PM
The kuzushi can be achieved by grabbing the wrist or inside the crook of the elbow, or if he is wearing a shirt then you can use the normal Judo grip.

In reality though you don't need as much kusushi when using the throws against non-judoka. Usually If I grab someone around the head as in koshi garuma, dip low, and spin as I lift I can generate a lot of power without even needing a lot of pull. I have used this successfully many times in no go sparring in BJJ also modifying it to either a uchimata or harai.

I know how you do it, that wasn't the question. The question was if you are taught to do it in your judo classes. Learning kuzushi in bjj is way way different then in a judo class. BJJ focuses a lot on wrestling style pummeling, wrist control, and head control. These are things I have never seen in my years of judo.

You fight like you train, no more or less can be expected.