Golden Center Aikido for your pleasure

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[graham christian]

For those who wish to see Aikido done without force.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CosmipcgsUQ

Hope you enjoy.

[Mark Freeman]

Hi Graham,

Full marks to you for putting it out there for everyone to see. However, if I were you, I would find a hard hat, methinks you may be in for a bumpy ride.

regards

Mark

[guest1234567]

For those who wish to see Aikido done without force.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CosmipcgsUQ

Hope you enjoy.
But you cannot call that a martial art any more..

[Mary Eastland]

But you cannot call that a martial art any more..
Martial art! Martial Art! :D :cool:
How can you tell how that feels by how it looks?
Mary

[Janet Rosen]

Martial art! Martial Art! :D :cool:
How can you tell how that feels by how it looks?
Mary

Mary I tend to agree w/ you on this - but, I AM looking for any sign that uke's balance has been taken before he falls, such as on shihonage being up on tippytoe or having to flex backward, or some kind of disruption in uke's structural integrity, and I'm just not seeing it. In technique after technique, uke appears to be essentially walking around nage and from a fully integrated posture deciding to fall.

In the version of cooperative training I try to model, uke is actually attacking and putting in the appropriate energy so that if nage does her part correctly, yes, uke's structural integrity is both visibly and palpably taken away and the technique happens.

So my question to the OP is: is this video intended to be an idealized demo in which uke is complicit or does it reflect actual training in your dojo?

[dps]

I don't know. It looks like Sensei has already injured one uke and someone is trying to revive him. :)

Maybe this is a beginners class.

dps

[guest1234567]

Martial art! Martial Art! :D :cool:
How can you tell how that feels by how it looks?
Mary
I sure cannot feel by how it looks, but I don't see any attack, any unbalance, they are just walking, uke taking toris hand, do you think with that iriminage anybody will fall down?
Everything goes slowly...
Ok I'm opened minded, if Graham call it martial art...Tai Chi is also a martial art..

[Flintstone]

Tai Chi is also a martial art..It. Is.

[Michael Hackett]

Great title! Especially the part about the "Dance of the Universe".

[guest1234567]

It. Is.

That is what I said,

[graham christian]

For those who wish to see Aikido done without force.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CosmipcgsUQ

Hope you enjoy.

Thank you all for your comments, I didn't expect to have many , especially positive ones.

I now feel I must explain. The video shown is to show a spiritual side of Aikido and is a demonstration of Kokyu. When a person gets a good reality of principles like kokyu then it does look a bit unbelievable to the naked eye.

So, if you will excuse the quality, I will leave you with the following video which shows not only Kokyu but also the power of the true energy of Koshi. With these two powerful principles comes the greater responsibility of taking into account your attacker and the need for the spirit of loving protection.

So welcome to a demo of Ki, Kokyu and Koshi.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttipyZQTguE

[Mark Freeman]

Hi Graham,

I think the title of the clip "Two Masters at Play" leaves you open to some criticism. The title of 'Master' can be a curse as well as a blessing. After 18 years I consider myself to be a competent student and teacher, but I certainly wouldn't want to go anywhere near the 'M' word, it's way above my pay grade. I can see what you are trying to demonstrate, I just have a bit of an issue with the grandiose title. For me Masters are few and far between. Maybe I am misreading it and you have a bit of tongue in cheek that I am missing.

I uderstand that when you fully get the kokyu principles, that some of what can be done can seem unbelievable to the onlooker, but not to those who know from the inside. You either feel it or you don't.

Still, like some of the comments that have been made above, there seems to be certain aspects missing from the demo that calls what is being seen into question. The attacks seem pretty un convincing and uke does not show a great deal of structural integrity throughout the technique, particularly when being thrown.

You speak of power being shown, I must admit I am at a bit of a loss to see it. I am definitely not looking for physical power, I want to see mental extention/ki (hard to fully appreciate in a video I know, but I watch my teacher demonstrate it so I know what I am looking for)

I say this as a Ki Aikido student of a teacher who may well qualify for the title of Master after over 50 years in the art, however I have never heard him use it of himself.

We practice and teach in a very similar manner to yourselves in that all of our techniques are (or we try) applied with the spirit of loving protection and much of my teachers original hard/damaging training has been modified for modern practice. However, we still strive to maintain the martial integrity of committed attacks, intent, extention, balance, aiki, moving from the centre, and control of uke throughout.

Having said that, we do teach from the soft side up, emphasising relaxation, flow, and following, trying to eliminate all tension and physical force. There is a point where this has to evolve to be able to deal with some reality. Without complete control of uke's centre coming from your own immovable mind and solid/fluid body, then a strong resistant attack will not be effectively dealt with. And if I am to be honest I was seeing a number of 'reversal opportunities' in your clips.

Interesting to watch and good luck with your training, remember though, there are some very experienced long term aikidoa on these fora from just about every type/style that has come into being, so no need to educate everyone.

Thank you all for your comments, I didn't expect to have many , especially positive ones

Why, were you expecting negative ones?

regards

Mark
p.s. where does your particular style come from?

[Michael Hackett]

Yup, great title in the first video.

[graham christian]

Hi Graham,

I think the title of the clip "Two Masters at Play" leaves you open to some criticism. The title of 'Master' can be a curse as well as a blessing. After 18 years I consider myself to be a competent student and teacher, but I certainly wouldn't want to go anywhere near the 'M' word, it's way above my pay grade. I can see what you are trying to demonstrate, I just have a bit of an issue with the grandiose title. For me Masters are few and far between. Maybe I am misreading it and you have a bit of tongue in cheek that I am missing.

I uderstand that when you fully get the kokyu principles, that some of what can be done can seem unbelievable to the onlooker, but not to those who know from the inside. You either feel it or you don't.

Still, like some of the comments that have been made above, there seems to be certain aspects missing from the demo that calls what is being seen into question. The attacks seem pretty un convincing and uke does not show a great deal of structural integrity throughout the technique, particularly when being thrown.

You speak of power being shown, I must admit I am at a bit of a loss to see it. I am definitely not looking for physical power, I want to see mental extention/ki (hard to fully appreciate in a video I know, but I watch my teacher demonstrate it so I know what I am looking for)

I say this as a Ki Aikido student of a teacher who may well qualify for the title of Master after over 50 years in the art, however I have never heard him use it of himself.

We practice and teach in a very similar manner to yourselves in that all of our techniques are (or we try) applied with the spirit of loving protection and much of my teachers original hard/damaging training has been modified for modern practice. However, we still strive to maintain the martial integrity of committed attacks, intent, extention, balance, aiki, moving from the centre, and control of uke throughout.

Having said that, we do teach from the soft side up, emphasising relaxation, flow, and following, trying to eliminate all tension and physical force. There is a point where this has to evolve to be able to deal with some reality. Without complete control of uke's centre coming from your own immovable mind and solid/fluid body, then a strong resistant attack will not be effectively dealt with. And if I am to be honest I was seeing a number of 'reversal opportunities' in your clips.

Interesting to watch and good luck with your training, remember though, there are some very experienced long term aikidoa on these fora from just about every type/style that has come into being, so no need to educate everyone.

Why, were you expecting negative ones?

regards

Mark
p.s. where does your particular style come from?

Hi Mark, thank you for giving such a well constructed and thoughtful reply. I owe you a proper response.

Firstly the title of the video. I have a number of them on youtube and all of the titles I put on them are artistic titles rather than technical, except for my last two which are more technical.

Now on the attacks of the uke I will first say that I teach firstly from static techniques, then from 'offering' and leading and finally from full moving striking as I'm pretty sure you do also in Ki Aikido.

The uke is taught not to go anywhere unless he has no choice.(as you probably know too many throw themselves with great breakfalls) So it may look like the uke is not doing much but if I was not fully in harmony he would either stop or just carry on through.

When you mention the point about a strong resistant attack being harder to deal with, again a valid point, I can only say this;
I personally find them much easier to deal with and thus teach my students to concentrate on developing their Ki and center etc. and to handle all kinds of attacks and they learn bit by bit that the more centered calm attacks are the hardest to deal with.

As for me and my particular style then I can only say it is one I have developed over the last ten years. I started 30 years ago training under Sensei Mike Muspratt in Watford who had been in Aikido from the start of it's introduction into England at a place called the hut. He was taught by Tohei Sensei and by Noro Sensei originally and thus my influences are of the early Aikikai and of KI Aikido. In fact the first book I read was' Ki in daily life' by Tohei Sensei and still have a Hakama sent to Mike by Tohei Sensei and handed on to me which I keep as a matter of honour and respect. It was also there where I was taught Ki-atsu and have practiced that ever since.

O.K. Hope I haven't bored you too much(joke).

Keep living it and loving it. G.

[Demetrio Cereijo]

Wearing hats and long sleeve shirts under keikogi. It has to be a very cold place.

... Sensei Mike Muspratt in Watford who had been in Aikido from the start of it's introduction into England at a place called the hut. He was taught by Tohei Sensei and by Noro Sensei originally

There are some things that don't match here.

If Muspratt sensei was at "the hut dojo" in the beginnings of british aikido he could not have been taught originally by Tohei sensei nor by Noro sensei.

[graham christian]

Wearing hats and long sleeve shirts under keikogi. It has to be a very cold place.

There are some things that don't match here.

If Muspratt sensei was at "the hut dojo" in the beginnings of british aikido he could not have been taught originally by Tohei sensei nor by Noro sensei.

Hi Demetrio, I wasn't there personally and am only saying what I was told by him and have no reason to disbelieve him. He told me that he also did training in wales and he still teaches at his private dojo in north watford

If you go on to google images and type in Mike Muspratt Aikido you will see an old official photo of five sitting seiza. Mike is the one on the left as you look at the picture and no doubt you may be able to name the rest of the people there, including the sensei.

Have fun. G.

[Russ Q]

I like the hats....

[Demetrio Cereijo]

Hi Demetrio, I wasn't there personally and am only saying what I was told by him and have no reason to disbelieve him.
Maybe you misunderstood him.

If you go on to google images and type in Mike Muspratt Aikido you will see an old official photo of five sitting seiza. Mike is the one on the left as you look at the picture and no doubt you may be able to name the rest of the people there, including the sensei.

Tohei Koichi sensei is in the middle. Does that mean he (Tohei sensei) was the original aikido instructor at the hut?

Have fun. G.
I'm having it.

[Dan Rubin]

For me Masters are few and far between.

"There are only a handful of true masters on the whole planet. Funny how they all end up in the San Francisco yellow pages!" --Yukiyoshi Takamura Sensei

[Anthony Loeppert]

I like the hats....

I'm sure they are purely functional... you gotta have some place to keep your stash...

[lbb]

Tell me they didn't shoot that with a security camera. They didn't really...did they?

[kewms]

If you go on to google images and type in Mike Muspratt Aikido you will see an old official photo of five sitting seiza. Mike is the one on the left as you look at the picture and no doubt you may be able to name the rest of the people there, including the sensei.


I've appeared in group photos with all sorts of people. That doesn't mean they are my teachers, or would even recognize me on or off the mat

Katherine

[Mark Freeman]

If Muspratt sensei was at "the hut dojo" in the beginnings of british aikido he could not have been taught originally by Tohei sensei nor by Noro sensei.

As far as I know Tohei Sensei did not ever teach at the Hut (although I stand to be corrected). My teacher Sensei Ken Williams was the first to receive Aikido training there from Kenshiro Abbe Sensei who introduced Aikido to the UK.

Sensei Henry Ellis' website http://www.british-aikido.com/BritishAikidoTree.htm has extensive material documenting the history of British Aikido and has dealt with many claims of people saying they were there in the beginning and simply weren't. Mr Muspratt may well have trained at the Hut (many people did) but only those recorded on Sensei Ellis' website were actually there in the early days.

Noro Sensei was invited came to teach as did Senseis Nakazono, Tamera and Tada.

Tohei Sensei was not (again as far as I know) part of the British Aikido scene until after Abbe Sensei returned to Japan in the mid 1960's. I will talk to Sensei Williams to clarify, if/when Tohei came to the UK before he went to study under him in Japan, some fair few years after Abbe Sensei left.

I just found the pic referred to in Graham's post above. http://marbella.to/aikido/sensei.htm Mike Muspratt did indeed receive instruction from Tohei in 1978 but it wasn't at the infamous Hut.

regards,

Mark

[graham christian]

As far as I know Tohei Sensei did not ever teach at the Hut (although I stand to be corrected). My teacher Sensei Ken Williams was the first to receive Aikido training there from Kenshiro Abbe Sensei who introduced Aikido to the UK.

Sensei Henry Ellis' website http://www.british-aikido.com/BritishAikidoTree.htm has extensive material documenting the history of British Aikido and has dealt with many claims of people saying they were there in the beginning and simply weren't. Mr Muspratt may well have trained at the Hut (many people did) but only those recorded on Sensei Ellis' website were actually there in the early days.

Noro Sensei was invited came to teach as did Senseis Nakazono, Tamera and Tada.

Tohei Sensei was not (again as far as I know) part of the British Aikido scene until after Abbe Sensei returned to Japan in the mid 1960's. I will talk to Sensei Williams to clarify, if/when Tohei came to the UK before he went to study under him in Japan, some fair few years after Abbe Sensei left.

I just found the pic referred to in Graham's post above. http://marbella.to/aikido/sensei.htm Mike Muspratt did indeed receive instruction from Tohei in 1978 but it wasn't at the infamous Hut.

regards,

Mark

Hi Marc, nice explanation, good to see someone who can research before concluding.

As I said before I wasn't personally there and only had stories relatrd to me by Mike Sensei and an old japanese friend of his named Yoshi.

However, I am also quite sure he mentioned both Henry Ellis and Ken Williams and in fact I have sent a private message to Sensei Henry Ellis only yesterday to enquire as to his memmories of that time and Mike as I'm sure they all knew each other. I will be very interested to hear what your Sensei has to say too.

Regards. G.

[Hellis]

As far as I know Tohei Sensei did not ever teach at the Hut (although I stand to be corrected). My teacher Sensei Ken Williams was the first to receive Aikido training there from Kenshiro Abbe Sensei who introduced Aikido to the UK.

Sensei Henry Ellis' website http://www.british-aikido.com/BritishAikidoTree.htm has extensive material documenting the history of British Aikido and has dealt with many claims of people saying they were there in the beginning and simply weren't. Mr Muspratt may well have trained at the Hut (many people did) but only those recorded on Sensei Ellis' website were actually there in the early days.

Noro Sensei was invited came to teach as did Senseis Nakazono, Tamera and Tada.

Tohei Sensei was not (again as far as I know) part of the British Aikido scene until after Abbe Sensei returned to Japan in the mid 1960's. I will talk to Sensei Williams to clarify, if/when Tohei came to the UK before he went to study under him in Japan, some fair few years after Abbe Sensei left.

I just found the pic referred to in Graham's post above. http://marbella.to/aikido/sensei.htm Mike Muspratt did indeed receive instruction from Tohei in 1978 but it wasn't at the infamous Hut.

regards,

Mark

Mark

I must have previously missed this thread. You are correct that Ken Williams Sensei was the first student of Aikido in the UK with Kenshiro Abbe Sensei. The British Aikido community owe a great deal to the efforts of Williams Sensei in those early days.

Tohei Sensei never visited the Hut Dojo.

I have no axe to grind with Mr Muspratt, I have never seen any claims by him that I would dispute.
I would though dispute Grahams claim that Mr Muspratt was training at the Hut Dojo in " the beginning "..( 1955 ).I personally have no memory of Mr Muspratt training at the Hut Dojo, I don't doubt that he may well have visited in the 60s.. I do remember Foster Sensei visiting the small dojo in Watford of Mr Muspratt..

Kenshiro Abbe Sensei invited several teachers from France to visit the UK, Tadashi Abe 1958? ~ Mikoto Nakazono 1960 ? M Noro 1963.

I looked at the said photo, I did not recognise anyone other than Tohei Sensei. The dojo looks rather nice and modern, where as the Hut Dojo looked more like ``Stalag 17 ``

I am sorry to say Graham, having watched your video, I can assure that Mr Muspratt would not have learned any of that from the Hut Dojo and the instructors there.

Henry Ellis
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/

[graham christian]

Mark

I must have previously missed this thread. You are correct that Ken Williams Sensei was the first student of Aikido in the UK with Kenshiro Abbe Sensei. The British Aikido community owe a great deal to the efforts of Williams Sensei in those early days.

Tohei Sensei never visited the Hut Dojo.

I have no axe to grind with Mr Muspratt, I have never seen any claims by him that I would dispute.
I would though dispute Grahams claim that Mr Muspratt was training at the Hut Dojo in " the beginning "..( 1955 ).I personally have no memory of Mr Muspratt training at the Hut Dojo, I don't doubt that he may well have visited in the 60s.. I do remember Foster Sensei visiting the small dojo in Watford of Mr Muspratt..

Kenshiro Abbe Sensei invited several teachers from France to visit the UK, Tadashi Abe 1958? ~ Mikoto Nakazono 1960 ? M Noro 1963.

I looked at the said photo, I did not recognise anyone other than Tohei Sensei. The dojo looks rather nice and modern, where as the Hut Dojo looked more like ``Stalag 17 ``

I am sorry to say Graham, having watched your video, I can assure that Mr Muspratt would not have learned any of that from the Hut Dojo and the instructors there.

Henry Ellis
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/

Hi Henry. I have since found that the photograph with Tohei Sensei was a summer camp, and as he always told us the history of Aikido in England, mentioning the hut I assumed he had trained there, maybe right, maybe wrong, but nonetheless he was around involved in the scene during the time of Abe Sensei and was indeed trained by Noro Sensei.

I personally have his original printed out curriculum from the seventies of his own Aikido group which is based on shin shin toitsu. On the top left of the document it says through 'AIKI-KAI of watford. Across the top of the page it reads Aikido harmony-spirit-way.

He later named his Aikido Zen Shin Kan Aikido of which I also have copies of the curriculum complete with criteria for examination from 5th kyu to sandan.

He also had criteria for advancement.

The criteria for examination was divided into four columns:
RANK. REQUIRED HOURS. REQUIRED BASIC TECHNIQUES. OPTIONAL TECHNIQUES CALLED FOR BY INSTRUCTOR.

The criteria for advancement had five columns:
RANK. AGE. REQUIRED HOURS. UNIFICATION OF MIND AND BODY. KI DEVELOPEMENT EXERCISES.

This should give you a basic understanding of what he was about and which direction he took and where his main influences come from.
Regards. G.

[Mark Freeman]

Mark

I must have previously missed this thread. You are correct that Ken Williams Sensei was the first student of Aikido in the UK with Kenshiro Abbe Sensei. The British Aikido community owe a great deal to the efforts of Williams Sensei in those early days.

Tohei Sensei never visited the Hut Dojo.

I have no axe to grind with Mr Muspratt, I have never seen any claims by him that I would dispute.
I would though dispute Grahams claim that Mr Muspratt was training at the Hut Dojo in " the beginning "..( 1955 ).I personally have no memory of Mr Muspratt training at the Hut Dojo, I don't doubt that he may well have visited in the 60s.. I do remember Foster Sensei visiting the small dojo in Watford of Mr Muspratt..

Kenshiro Abbe Sensei invited several teachers from France to visit the UK, Tadashi Abe 1958? ~ Mikoto Nakazono 1960 ? M Noro 1963.

I looked at the said photo, I did not recognise anyone other than Tohei Sensei. The dojo looks rather nice and modern, where as the Hut Dojo looked more like ``Stalag 17 ``

I am sorry to say Graham, having watched your video, I can assure that Mr Muspratt would not have learned any of that from the Hut Dojo and the instructors there.

Henry Ellis
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/

Hi Henry,

Having spent many hours in the pub (post practice tradition) with Sensei Williams, I have heard many tales of 'the early days' and Abbe Sensei in particular, who to this day is still spoken of with great affection and respect by him. Also, all the visiting Japanese Sensei were appreciated for the skill they brought over and shared with the early pioneers of the art in the UK.

I'm also aware of 'some' of the politics that lead the the Aikido scene being quite messy in the UK once Abbe Sensei returned to Japan. Probably inevitable, as nothing stays the same and anything that grows with numbers of individuals, is bound to have tensions inherent in whatever system they follow.

As far as I understand things, although Ken Williams had a great deal of input into the promotion and spreading of (as you did yourself) the art of Aikido in the UK. However, there came a point where he set up his own Federation, after leaving Tohei Sensei, and has little to do with the wider world of British Aikido ever since (well over 30 odd years).

Having read some of the material you have posted on your very informative site, particularly regarding the BAB, Im not surprised that he is happy to be a loner, away from all that nonsense.

Anyway, I feel very fortunate to have recieved the teaching I have. I owe a debt of gratitude to all of the early teachers that got Aikido off the ground over here.

regards

Mark

[Hellis]

Hi Henry. I have since found that the photograph with Tohei Sensei was a summer camp, and as he always told us the history of Aikido in England, mentioning the hut I assumed he had trained there, maybe right, maybe wrong, but nonetheless he was around involved in the scene during the time of Abe Sensei and was indeed trained by Noro Sensei.

I personally have his original printed out curriculum from the seventies of his own Aikido group which is based on shin shin toitsu. On the top left of the document it says through 'AIKI-KAI of watford. Across the top of the page it reads Aikido harmony-spirit-way.

He later named his Aikido Zen Shin Kan Aikido of which I also have copies of the curriculum complete with criteria for examination from 5th kyu to sandan.

He also had criteria for advancement.

The criteria for examination was divided into four columns:
RANK. REQUIRED HOURS. REQUIRED BASIC TECHNIQUES. OPTIONAL TECHNIQUES CALLED FOR BY INSTRUCTOR.

The criteria for advancement had five columns:
RANK. AGE. REQUIRED HOURS. UNIFICATION OF MIND AND BODY. KI DEVELOPEMENT EXERCISES.

This should give you a basic understanding of what he was about and which direction he took and where his main influences come from.
Regards. G.

Graham

In the beginning there were only 5 dan grades for Aikido in the whole of the UK, they were all at the Hut Dojo, later this became 8 dan grades...those dan grades did a great deal to promote Aikido across the UK.....As we travelled we brought along many other students/ teachers who also worked hard to promote Aikido.
In my lifetime I have seen Aikido spread from just one dojo to probably every town in Britain, quite an achievement...
Regards

Henry Ellis
http://aikido-controversy.blogspot.com/

[Hellis]

Hi Henry,

Having spent many hours in the pub (post practice tradition) with Sensei Williams, I have heard many tales of 'the early days' and Abbe Sensei in particular, who to this day is still spoken of with great affection and respect by him. Also, all the visiting Japanese Sensei were appreciated for the skill they brought over and shared with the early pioneers of the art in the UK.

I'm also aware of 'some' of the politics that lead the the Aikido scene being quite messy in the UK once Abbe Sensei returned to Japan. Probably inevitable, as nothing stays the same and anything that grows with numbers of individuals, is bound to have tensions inherent in whatever system they follow.

As far as I understand things, although Ken Williams had a great deal of input into the promotion and spreading of (as you did yourself) the art of Aikido in the UK. However, there came a point where he set up his own Federation, after leaving Tohei Sensei, and has little to do with the wider world of British Aikido ever since (well over 30 odd years).

Having read some of the material you have posted on your very informative site, particularly regarding the BAB, Im not surprised that he is happy to be a loner, away from all that nonsense.

Anyway, I feel very fortunate to have recieved the teaching I have. I owe a debt of gratitude to all of the early teachers that got Aikido off the ground over here.

regards

Mark

Hi Mark

The training at the Hut Dojo was always very hard, the highlight was the recovery session with Sensei Wlilliams in the Hut Pub for a couple of pints of beer after training.

I appreciate that Sensei Williams later joined with Tohei Sensei, I believe he will always be remembered for what he achieved between 1955 - 1967. I do accept that he went on to do much more.
That is why I have worked so hard against the odds to protect the history of the early days of British Aikdo...
I can fully understand why Sensei stepped back as he did from the likes of the BAB...They could have done so much for Aikido, they have failed miserably.
Please give my sincere regards to Sensei Williams.

Henry Ellis
http://aikido-controversy.blogspot.com/

[Mark Freeman]

Hi Mark

The training at the Hut Dojo was always very hard, the highlight was the recovery session with Sensei Wlilliams in the Hut Pub for a couple of pints of beer after training.

I appreciate that Sensei Williams later joined with Tohei Sensei, I believe he will always be remembered for what he achieved between 1955 - 1967. I do accept that he went on to do much more.
That is why I have worked so hard against the odds to protect the history of the early days of British Aikdo...
I can fully understand why Sensei stepped back as he did from the likes of the BAB...They could have done so much for Aikido, they have failed miserably.
Please give my sincere regards to Sensei Williams.

Henry Ellis
http://aikido-controversy.blogspot.com/

Hi Henry,

Of course I will pass on your regards.

I will be seeing him soon as I have three young students going up for their 1st Dan Grading.

Sensei is not the hard taskmaster he once was, age and wisdom has tempered him. However 'George' the Shinai is occasionally taken from the rack, when he is roused by students not doing what they've been shown!

regards,

Mark

[Hellis]

Hi Henry,

Of course I will pass on your regards.

I will be seeing him soon as I have three young students going up for their 1st Dan Grading.

Sensei is not the hard taskmaster he once was, age and wisdom has tempered him. However 'George' the Shinai is occasionally taken from the rack, when he is roused by students not doing what they've been shown!

regards,

Mark

Ha ha ha :D Old habits are hard to lose ( shinai )

Kenshiro Abbe Sensei would say " My English not good, my shinai speak fluentl English !!".............:uch:

Henry Ellis
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/

[Tony Wagstaffe]

Ooooh!! S***t someone woke me up!!!!!???

This is a bad dream isn't it? :eek: :confused:
Now where did I put that dam teapot and cozy.....? :hypno: :rolleyes:

[Mark Freeman]

Ooooh!! S***t someone woke me up!!!!!???

This is a bad dream isn't it? :eek: :confused:
Now where did I put that dam teapot and cozy.....? :hypno: :rolleyes:

What does that mean Tony?:rolleyes:

[SeaGrass]

ukemi seems very unsafe imho

[Tony Wagstaffe]

What does that mean Tony?:rolleyes:

It means I need a cup of rosy lee to calm the shock of seeing such mind blowing martial prowess......;)

[Hellis]

It means I need a cup of rosy lee to calm the shock of seeing such mind blowing martial prowess......;)

Good morning Tony, time for a moring cuppa. I hope you kept the tea pot warm ? ;)

Henry Ellis
http://aikido-controversy.blogspot.com/

[Tony Wagstaffe]

Good morning Tony, time for a moring cuppa. I hope you kept the tea pot warm ? ;)

Henry Ellis
http://aikido-controversy.blogspot.com/

Sorry Henry someone nicked my cozy......;)

[Tony Wagstaffe]

Some more "tricks" for those who like this sort of thing.....
It's funny how I get asked to do them when people want to do videos.....:confused:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gL3Lwvly5GA&feature=related....

All these silly tricks are nothing to do with learning solid training, it's where it's really at, anyone can do this.....
All it means is you understand body mechanics and would be useless in a really hostile situation.....:rolleyes:

[Hellis]

Some more "tricks" for those who like this sort of thing.....
It's funny how I get asked to do them when people want to do videos.....:confused:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gL3Lwvly5GA&feature=related....

All these silly tricks are nothing to do with learning solid training, it's where it's really at, anyone can do this.....
All it means is you understand body mechanics and would be useless in a really hostile situation.....:rolleyes:

""" Invisible Aiki """"
I wish it had been truly invisible then I would not have watched it.

Henry Ellis
http://aikido-controversy.blogspot.com/

[Mary Eastland]

hey Tony:
I just looked at your video again...it doesn't really look too different that what other people are doing except for the times when it seems like you are working to hard and need to relax more. Why all this noise about how different you are? (not being snarky really am interested)
Mary

[Tony Wagstaffe]

hey Tony:
I just looked at your video again...it doesn't really look too different that what other people are doing except for the times when it seems like you are working to hard and need to relax more. Why all this noise about how different you are? (not being snarky really am interested)
Mary

It's very simple Mary, you can only do these tricks from learning good hard solid practice. Understanding body mechanics and doing what everyone seems to find so fascinating.:confused: I show these tricks to my students who can do them straight away, It's no big deal.....
What most don't seem to realise is it will not work in a real hostile situation..... believe it I know......:straightf
You can only know that if you have been in one.... or many in my case :hypno:
Dojo practice is not fraught with any real danger, but when you are out on the tatami to compete against somebody who isn't going to fall down at the slightest move it is a little more risky...... :crazy:
When in a hostile situation, ya don't have time to mess about and relax for after noon tea.......It is folly trying to do simple tricks when in that environment, try it sometime when somebody is really resisting you and has every intention of taking your block off.....;) :straightf
Everyone forgets that Proff Ueshiba, although small in height was powerfully built, so knew these tricks easily from his solid training....
It's a bit like saying you will get fit from doing martial arts if you train hard.... well its true of any physical discipline.......:rolleyes:
I can also do the trick of taking a full blows to the stomach, but that's nothing clever as all boxers have that ability by doing loads of sit ups to toughen the stomach muscles and having a medicine ball bounced on it, also knowing when to apply isometric contraction at the time someone hits it..... nothing mysterious about that.....;)
Here in lies the secret.....;) relax contract, relax contract , easy peasy....:D

[Tony Wagstaffe]

""" Invisible Aiki """"
I wish it had been truly invisible then I would not have watched it.

Henry Ellis
http://aikido-controversy.blogspot.com/

Working on it Henry... now you see me..... now you don't ;)
I'm practising to become a ninja now.....

Saw that article on your son Richard, Give him my best and I wish him success in all that he does, a true aikidoka.....:)

[Tony Wagstaffe]

Applying these when under real duress, would only be applicable by accident or a lucky hit. Or one is extremely accurate!!
Most of these won't work when people are under the affluence of incahol or other mind mending drugs....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHdkl90ATO0&feature=related

Nice for a bit of Sunday afternoon entertainment....:)

[Hellis]

Jeeeez Tony, If you are going to provide these videos, you should also provide the alcohol ....

So, if you are being attacked ?, you ask the assailant to stand still ( don't forget to say please ) whilst you find the pressure point, he must also be advised not to kick or punch or bite your finger while you pull on his lip....

I suppose you could give your opponent a stern look :-)

Henry Ellis
http://aikido-controversy.blogspot.com/

[Tony Wagstaffe]

Jeeeez Tony, If you are going to provide these videos, you should also provide the alcohol ....

So, if you are being attacked ?, you ask the assailant to stand still ( don't forget to say please ) whilst you find the pressure point, he must also be advised not to kick or punch or bite your finger while you pull on his lip....

I suppose you could give your opponent a stern look :-)

Henry Ellis
http://aikido-controversy.blogspot.com/:D

Ha ha....:D

If I was nearer I would take you down the pub and buy you one (or two) Henry.....
But alas you have to take out a mortgage to buy a sodding pint these days ........ha ha!!

Whenever you are ready Sensei......;)

[Tony Wagstaffe]

With all this talk of "masters" I reckon that if this is the case? I must be bloody superman and hold the rank of 96th dan!!!!

Henry, you should promote yourself, with immediate effect to 110th Dan........... :D ;) :rolleyes: ;)

God........?

[ronin67]

I'm going to respectfully ask this again. What is with the hats anyway?

May God bless!

Ed

[Hellis]

For a moment I thought Tony was back to liven the forum up a bit - then I saw it was an old thread....
Ed Duffy
The hats help to keep Grahams Ki warm ...

Henry Ellis
Aikido in MMA
http://rik-ellis.blogspot.com/

[sakumeikan]

Dear Graham,
I will say that having watched your video I can safely state that once seen the video will not be forgotten.
Cheers, Joe.

[robin_jet_alt]

Ah, I was wondering what videos Dan was referring to. Now I know.

All I can say is that it is pretty gutsy to post videos of what you do on these forums, knowing that people are likely to rip into them. I wouldn't post any videos of myself on here.

[DH]

Ah, I was wondering what videos Dan was referring to. Now I know.

All I can say is that it is pretty gutsy to post videos of what you do on these forums, knowing that people are likely to rip into them. I wouldn't post any videos of myself on here.
Not always true Robin. If you notice, rarely is anyone bothered when they are talking about cooperative practice, means and goals. It's straight up and honest.
Rather, it is the people here, who talk about their martial effectiveness or internal skills with aiki and then you watch their videos, I honestly think that some people are delusional. It is important to watch them and then read their own opinions of themselves as being effective and powerful. As was discussed recently in another thread here (with other videos) all you have to do is watch the level of attacks and what happens next. Most often we are not alone when we sit at home and watch and go ..."What?"
Sometime's it's hard to offer any credibility to those offering discussion and talking points here about ki or aiki, and effective power with the level of competence displayed in some of the videos people keep putting up. It is stridently clear that their theories, and their imagined skills level do not do well under scrutiny. It is very damaging for the reputation of the arts for people to let these things go. Clarity and honest evaluation helps us all.
Oh well
Dan

[robin_jet_alt]

Hi Dan,

You had mentioned seeing some of Graham's videos specifically in another thread. This is why I mentioned you. I was very interested to see them and hadn't been able to find them on google.

All the best,

Robin

[graham christian]

I'm going to respectfully ask this again. What is with the hats anyway?

May God bless!

Ed

Hi Ed.
You respectfully ask so I shall respectfully answer.

http://youtu.be/TRGDkMqh0hI

In this video after abt 3 mins you will find your answer.

These originally were not teaching or demonstration videos but done for fun for ourselves. To understand this particular one it was yet another occasion at the end of class where I offered to wake up the person concerned Ki. It always does the trick.

Others have mentioned break-falls, or lack of them. I do teach break-falls but I also teach not to launch yourself into them. In fact I have that as the senior thing. I say flying break-falls are only for projections.

Regards.G.

[robin_jet_alt]

Hi Graham,

I think the point people were making about break falls is not so much the force with which they are done, but the habit of landing on the arm or hand. This is fine as long as you are able to gently lower yourself to the ground, but if you are genuinely falling, this can lead to all sorts of messy injuries involving wrists, elbows and collarbones, so I would consider it a bad habit.

Robin

[graham christian]

Dear Graham,
I will say that having watched your video I can safely state that once seen the video will not be forgotten.
Cheers, Joe.

Mission accomplished.Ha,ha.

Regards.G.

[graham christian]

Hi Graham,

I think the point people were making about break falls is not so much the force with which they are done, but the habit of landing on the arm or hand. This is fine as long as you are able to gently lower yourself to the ground, but if you are genuinely falling, this can lead to all sorts of messy injuries involving wrists, elbows and collarbones, so I would consider it a bad habit.

Robin

I understand that Robin. I agree.

Regards.G.

[ryback]

I sure cannot feel by how it looks, but I don't see any attack, any unbalance, they are just walking, uke taking toris hand, do you think with that iriminage anybody will fall down?
Everything goes slowly...
Ok I'm opened minded, if Graham call it martial art...Tai Chi is also a martial art..

Absolutelly right! You cannot feel by how it looks, but any aikidoka with some experience, that has practiced with real attacks can see that nobody's actually attacking, nobody's breaking nobody's ballance, nobody's applying effective techniques in this video. And it's not only a matter of speed. This isn't aikido with no force. This is aikido with no aikido. Aikido is a non- resisting martial art, but a martial art nevertheless. They keep on redusing it to nothingness and then they are trying to find street effectiveness in Anderson Silva's U.F.C videos! Beats the hell out of me!!

[Hellis]

Dear Graham,
I will say that having watched your video I can safely state that once seen the video will not be forgotten.
Cheers, Joe.

Hi Joe

You have to watch the whole video to be in with a chance of winning the box set :)

Henry Ellis
Aikido without Ribbons
http://rik-ellis.blogspot.com/

[DH]

Quote:Carina Reinhardt wrote:
I sure cannot feel by how it looks, but I don't see any attack, any unbalance, they are just walking, uke taking toris hand, do you think with that iriminage anybody will fall down?
Everything goes slowly...
Ok I'm opened minded, if Graham call it martial art...Tai Chi is also a martial art..

Absolutelly right! You cannot feel by how it looks, but any aikidoka with some experience, that has practiced with real attacks can see that nobody's actually attacking, nobody's breaking nobody's ballance, nobody's applying effective techniques in this video. And it's not only a matter of speed. This isn't aikido with no force. This is aikido with no aikido. Aikido is a non- resisting martial art, but a martial art nevertheless. They keep on redusing it to nothingness and then they are trying to find street effectiveness in Anderson Silva's U.F.C videos! Beats the hell out of me!!
I agree with the majority of those assessing these videos. There is no effective aikido in the videos and definitely no aiki to be seen.
Carina brought up Taiji and I think that is a good comparative example to use. Good Aikido people, like good taiji people, have for too long tolerated just anyone doing any manner of movement and allowed it to be called taiji or aikido. As a result. Taiji and aikido have become more or less the laughing stocks of the martial arts.

No one in their right minds would ever call the stuff that millions of these gentle people are doing- martial. But there is a more critical and underlying element at work here as well. None of these people in Taiji or aikido are doing aiki or Internal power either. And those are the very foundation of the art. So what are as former members who walked away and outsiders who are considering to join, left to say when the videos being produced and work being done by these ner do wells in dojos fail to deliver on either count; martial or IP/aiki? It would seem that instictually they recognize that something is amiss. All the while, the good work is being done, but with much less public exposure .

All in all, the tolerances granted via shear volume, the unwillingness to confront and be critical, has only done further damage to the reputation of these two arts. The next time you talk about the ever reducing numbers of people signing up due to lack of interest, or the laughter in martial art circles when these two arts are brought up (regarding effectiveness) I would suggest you ask yourself if this tolerance of nonsense done in the name of the art of Aikido or taij,i has helped these arts in any meaningful way. Increased popularity by ever reducing standards of excellence to the lowest common denominator was probably not the way to go.

Some senior teachers are taking back rank, or suspending it based on involvement and growth. Others are openly asking people to leave or telling them their ranks are frozen. I would suggest more of the same. Only those in the arts can repair the train wreck the arts have become. It is apainful process that begins with critical assessment. and selfless interest. Teachers need a clear model of excellence in front of them, and a lack of interest or value in requests to rank ner-do-wells and folks with good attendance.

Teachers as models
The first step -good teachers to model after- is the hardest to actually pull off. Good martial artists have always stood out from the budo wallpaper. The trouble we have now is that no one believes their own teacher was the wallpaper! I've lost track of the teachers who have told me how amazing their teachers were. Then you feel or see them and go ..."What?" This factor alone explains much of the state of affairs. If you got rid of about a million people teaching taiji, you would see an improvement in taiji in ten years. The same would happen with aikido. Of the thousands of videos out there, how many show a level of excellence in teaching aikido?
Just say'n
Dan

[ronin67]

I agree with the majority of those assessing these videos. There is no effective aikido in the videos and definitely no aiki to be seen.
Dan

A very honest assessment. Also, I've never been to a Aikido dojo, where you have junior members practicing on their own, doing what ever on the side (I have this big urge every time I watch this video to want to jump on the side and start helping these guys). As far as the two aikidoka, it just looks like no extension of KI at all with effective waza. The akemi looks like he is almost afraid to fall and get hurt. It is funny, every time I practice Aikido, I'm always walking away with some type of bruise here or there. Not saying I'm all that, because I'm not.

Dojo discipline is also something stressed very much, at least in the KI Aikido dojo that I attend now (and to be honest every KI Aikido dojo I attended). Hats being worn in the dojo? That would never be acceptable in any KI Aikido Dojo I attended. If your into the long Bob Marley type hair that is fine, just tie it and let the bodies hit the floor (with KI and good waza). The Aikido has to be effective. The circular movement of the uke also looks dead. This is not a personal hit on the original poster (he is a very nice gentleman), but the "Hippie" Aikido just doesn't do it for me. It is missing the structure and discipline to me. I'm use to seeing people moving around with a sense of purpose and effective extension of KI, with good waza.

May God bless!

Ed

[DH]

A very honest assessment. Also, I've never been to a Aikido dojo, where you have junior members practicing on their own, doing what ever on the side. As far as the two aikidoka, it just looks like no extension of KI at all with effective waza. The akemi looks like he is almost afraid to fall and get hurt. It is funny, every time I practice Aikido, I'm always walking away with some type of bruise here or there. Not saying I'm all that, because I'm not.

Dojo discipline is also something stressed very much, at least in the KI Aikido dojo that I attend now (and to be honest every KI Aikido dojo I attended). Hats being worn in the dojo? That would never be acceptable in any KI Aikido Dojo I attended. If your into the long Bob Marley type hair that is fine, just tie it and let the bodies hit the floor (with KI and good waza). The Aikido has to be effective. The circular movement of the uke also looks dead. This is not a personal hit on the original poster (he is a very nice gentleman), but the "Hippie" Aikido just doesn't do it for me. It is missing the structure and discipline to me. I'm use to seeing people moving around with a sense of purpose and effective extension of KI, with good waza.
May God bless!
Ed
I agree. It's bordering on the ridiculous that all of us keep being told we don't "understand" what we are seeing and we don't "get" aikido or how "effective" this stuff is....:rolleyes:
It is noteworthy that there are no positive comments from anyone we would consider competent. It seems all the ki guys and all the English guys here walked away from this as well.
Dan

[ronin67]

I agree. It's bordering on the ridiculous that all of us keep being told we don't "understand" what we are seeing and we don't "get" aikido or how "effective" this stuff is....:rolleyes:
It is noteworthy that there are no positive comments from anyone we would consider competent. It seems all the ki guys and all the English guys here walked away from this as well.
Dan

Sorry, if I came across being harsh. But being a retired U.S. Army Military Policeman, it just doesn't look like anything I have encountered as a shred bit useful that would help me apprehend a belligerent/combative subject. I'm all into the harmony aspect of Aikido, but it has to work when applied. I took up Aikido in the first place out of job need. It is very important as a law enforcement officer to have a good background in unarmed self-defense. Aikido, seemed to be the best choice for me (other then the fact that sometimes as a policeman you have to be on the offensive when apprehending a subject).

If you are trying to hurt me or trying to hurt innocent people, I don't have a issue with getting that balance of nature back by causing you pain as the aggressor. To me you have lost your sense of responsibility as a fellow human being by ignoring the harmony of others. So myself introducing you to a solid object to bring back reality of this needed respect for others, doesn't bother me in the least. However, I will pray for your healing after the fact.

May God bless!

Ed

[DH]

Sorry, if I came across being harsh.
.....So introducing you to a solid object to bring back reality of this needed respect for others, doesn't bother me in the least. However, I will pray for your healing after the fact.
May God bless!
Ed
I liked that comment Ed. There are many reasons I respect Ueshiba-as Ellis noted in his book- and first and foremost was this model.
I think confusion enters into the picture due to the lack of good models as I previously mentioned. Just as most people still think of their dads strength or power as daunting-due to them growing up admiring their dad- they still think of their teachers that way. So those who were indeed just the wallpaper of the budo world left a lack luster heritage. Love is indeed many times blind. Critical thinking and dispassionate review is the best way to go.
There is really no way to know if your aiki is truly worthwhile if all you do is play with your own group. Yet...what do we see the majority of people doing? Most of these people we see in the videos would all but completely fall apart if they ever stepped on the mat with people with serious aiki skills, much less serious fighting skills and aiki. So they avoid being exposed. Others confront, self-examine and grow.
Cheers
Dan

[Mary Eastland]

I agree. It's bordering on the ridiculous that all of us keep being told we don't "understand" what we are seeing and we don't "get" aikido or how "effective" this stuff is....:rolleyes:
It is noteworthy that there are no positive comments from anyone we would consider competent. It seems all the ki guys and all the English guys here walked away from this as well.
Dan

Who do you consider competent?
Who is your "we"?

Why do you continue to criticize something you don't understand?

I hear Graham say over and over that those videos are not what he does for technique...they are videos of some stuff he was working on after class.

Jun asked us to be respectful of others.

Making fun of Graham and any one else who doesn't do it your way or Henry's way is not respectful.

Dan, you don't train in Aikido. Can you consider that you might not understand what Graham is talking about because you have not put as much time on an Aikido mat as he has?

I am sure you have a good understanding of what you do.

Saying things like "we get and you don't" is a form of bullying.

Forums are for an exchange of ideas.

What you do...what Mike does ...what Henry Ellis does...What George does...What Mark (both Marks) do...what Graham does...what we do...are all different...there are many starfish on the shore...all are beautiful.

Yours may be the strongest and the best and the most effective in your eyes.
There is still room for diversity...that is what make life wonderful.
Thanks for listening.

Mary

[DH]

Who do you consider competent?
Who is your "we"?
Why do you continue to criticize something you don't understand?
I hear Graham say over and over that those videos are not what he does for technique...they are videos of some stuff he was working on after class.
Jun asked us to be respectful of others.
Making fun of Graham and any one else who doesn't do it your way or Henry's way is not respectful.
Dan, you don't train in Aikido. Can you consider that you might not understand what Graham is talking about because you have not put as much time on an Aikido mat as he has?

I am sure you have a good understanding of what you do.

Saying things like "we get and you don't" is a form of bullying.

Forums are for an exchange of ideas.

What you do...what Mike does ...what Henry Ellis does...What George does...What Mark (both Marks) do...what Graham does...what we do...are all different...there are many starfish on the shore...all are beautiful.

Yours may be the strongest and the best and the most effective in your eyes.
There is still room for diversity...that is what make life wonderful.
Thanks for listening.

Mary
Mary, you got it backward.
The we? Was all of us being told BY Graham that we don't understand....And this includes a long list of aikidoka here.

As for the other videos of no touch aikido and taiji that are widely examined and critiqued. Many times the people who post them asked for a review. Other times Jun himself asked us to use video to make points.
You also missed a critcial point I raise, over and over and over. I am starting to wonder if you miss it on purpose. No one cares if people do cooperative practice and enjoy it. There is no reason that it has to be martial. It is only when they state that it is something it is not, they they invitte a critical examination.
This also goes into aiki or internals. Like it or not, if someone is going to state they can move someone with aiki, we..ave every right to discuss their ability to do so. Case in point: No one minds if we say something positive do they? This over sensitivity to examination doesn't say much for a budo-ka.
It is also clear that you do not address the long list of folks saying much the same thing to Graham. You reserve your ire for me. I did Aikido for years. I am in aikido dojo- surounded by aikido teachers- constantly. I have every right to an opinon, particularly when I can support them in person.

Saying things like "we get and you don't" is a form of bullying.
Actually Mary it is a truth that overly sensitive people don't like.
That said, you need to review- as it is Graham who has been doing exactly that to all of his critique that he asked for.
Graham aside, lets look at the no touch throws and and the taiji I mentioned. I have no trouble with thier comments that it is effective, as long as they can do. It is obvious to most everyone this is not the case
Dan

[AsimHanif]

I think aikiweb is a wonderful resource and I applaud Jun for all his efforts. That said aikiweb is not (in my opinion) representative of the whole aikido community and the thoughts and opinions expressed here hopefully are not taken to be the general feeling of the aikido or martial arts community for that matter. I say this because of a concern that people new to aikido might think otherwise if this is a primary resource for them.
I for one have not heard that aikido is the ‘laughing stock' of the martial arts. Rather I hear from some that certain practitioners or even groups don't appear to be martially effective. But I hear that about a lot of arts and combat sports.
I also don't share the opinion that aikido is seeing a lack of interest. Looking at my own dojo, we have seen significant growth and sustained interest. And the fact the most of our members are former/current military and athletes speaks volumes as to the honest training that goes on here.
It does boil down to having access to good information and being able to absorb that info. Maybe I've been fortunate to have good teachers that stressed principles over style. So the whole discussion on aikido not having ‘aiki/ip' or being martial is quite foreign to me.
Again, everyone has an opinion. And surely I've seen/felt what I thought was not very good aikido but I won't indict the whole of aikido. It's especially intriguing to me when I feel one of these new aiki disciples who are being held up as examples of what aikido should be. The ones I've felt quite honestly have not been very impressive. I didn't experience any disruption to my body or earth shattering enlightenment. All I left with was the feeling of ‘why did I spend my money on this?' But I do think it's good to get out and feel what others are doing so as not to be in a bubble or self-delusional. I have just come away with the attitude that I'll do what feels right for me and let others do what they do.

[Marc Abrams]

Diversity is a nice thing. It is nice to be nice...... Legitimate analysis of strengths and weaknesses of "diversity" should not be confused with the idea of "bullying." Our sense of political correctness leads us to not be intellectually and emotionally honest with ourselves and others. We should and we should encourage others to engage in honest analysis of strengths and weaknesses. It is utter nonsense to try and hide behind excuses like "you don't understand" without then going out and showing people that they really do not understand (eg- poster with the videos). To Dan's credit, he gets out there and can demonstrate and teach what he talks about. If you are not willing to walk your talk, then you deserve the legitimate criticisms that you will receive.

Budo is about protecting what we love. If what we do genuinely cannot accomplish that goal then we need to face up to that and not hide behind ideas of "the niceness of diversity", "you don't understand", etc. Many more years of training in something does not serve as an excuse either. Toby Threadgill's teacher put it best when he said practicing something wrong one million times does not make something right or better.

The poster who is training in a Ki Society dojo is correct about some major differences between the Ki Society dojos in Japan and other places. It goes directly to the fact that Tohei Sensei was able to walk his talk. He got to the top of that food chain by being able to make what he did work against some serious challengers. What some people pass off as using Ki in their Aikido is embarrassing and should be called to task.

Just my 2 cents.

Marc Abrams

[DH]

I think aikiweb is a wonderful resource and I applaud Jun for all his efforts. That said aikiweb is not (in my opinion) representative of the whole aikido community and the thoughts and opinions expressed here hopefully are not taken to be the general feeling of the aikido or martial arts community for that matter. I say this because of a concern that people new to aikido might think otherwise if this is a primary resource for them.
I for one have not heard that aikido is the ‘laughing stock' of the martial arts. Rather I hear from some that certain practitioners or even groups don't appear to be martially effective. But I hear that about a lot of arts and combat sports.
I also don't share the opinion that aikido is seeing a lack of interest. Looking at my own dojo, we have seen significant growth and sustained interest. And the fact the most of our members are former/current military and athletes speaks volumes as to the honest training that goes on here.
It does boil down to having access to good information and being able to absorb that info. Maybe I've been fortunate to have good teachers that stressed principles over style. So the whole discussion on aikido not having ‘aiki/ip' or being martial is quite foreign to me.
Again, everyone has an opinion. And surely I've seen/felt what I thought was not very good aikido but I won't indict the whole of aikido. It's especially intriguing to me when I feel one of these new aiki disciples who are being held up as examples of what aikido should be. The ones I've felt quite honestly have not been very impressive. I didn't experience any disruption to my body or earth shattering enlightenment. All I left with was the feeling of ‘why did I spend my money on this?' But I do think it's good to get out and feel what others are doing so as not to be in a bubble or self-delusional. I have just come away with the attitude that I'll do what feels right for me and let others do what they do.
I was refering to fighting effectiveness and light touch or no touch throws, in aikido as well as taiji where, under stress; people cannot deliver. And ...that....is a laughing stock in every martial venue I have ever seen or read, including most teachers in aikido in the many threads covering it as is evident and provable, here.
If you would like to find threads here where aikido people applaud that, I would love to see it. If you have examples of Taiji or aikido people (the two arts that seem to push this stuff the most) doing this type of work on outsiders who are fully engaged to stop them and it worked, I would love to see that as well. Otherwise the critique stands on its own merit.
I say it again.
No one is arguing cooperative practice....we... all do it to one degree or another in every art I know of.
It is the statements of effectiveness that cannot withstand scrutiny that is being addressed. Emotion should not be an issue.
Cheers
Dan

[DH]

Diversity is a nice thing. It is nice to be nice...... Legitimate analysis of strengths and weaknesses of "diversity" should not be confused with the idea of "bullying."
...It is utter nonsense to try and hide behind excuses like "you don't understand" without then going out and showing people that they really do not understand (eg- poster with the videos). To Dan's credit, he gets out there and can demonstrate and teach what he talks about. If you are not willing to walk your talk, then you deserve the legitimate criticisms that you will receive.
Just my 2 cents.
Marc Abrams
Two very good points Marc.
I've never seen the like in Budo.
The tenet of budo was always... to be effective. Everyone keeps talking about how effective this or that teacher was, how amazing this or that teacher is...
Now it's, everyone is equal and everyone's practice is validated.
That's why I keep saying Budo is like how a good education should be- not everyone gets and "A."
All the best
Dan

[Mark Freeman]

It is noteworthy that there are no positive comments from anyone we would consider competent. It seems all the ki guys and all the English guys here walked away from this as well.
Dan

Hi Dan,

I'm not sure if I count as being considered competent, but I am a ki guy and I am English. I was the first to post a reply in this thread, when I said to Graham:

"Full marks to you for putting it out there for everyone to see. However, if I were you, I would find a hard hat, methinks you may be in for a bumpy ride."

He has taken alot of flak since he posted the vids for all to see.

I am not here to defend him, he can do that for himself. However, I reserve personal judgement until I get to actually feel what he is doing. Which I hope to do, in the not too distant future. Videos are a blessing and a curse in many ways. So much of what we speak of can not be understood by watching alone. You know as well as anyone, that you could not teach what you do, by visual means alone. It needs all the senses engaged, eyes, ears, body and mind, all have to be fully present.

In Graham's favour, I think he has a very good understanding of the philosophy of aikido, and although not everyone gets what he is writing (maybe language style), he does come across as someone who thinks deeply about what the/his true purpose of aikido is.

Maybe we should all concentrate more on improving our own practice, and critiquing others less. Who really cares if someone else is ineffective? the world is full of them, it would be too exhausting;)

BTW I have recently started Yoga as a supplementary practice to my aikido. In the first lesson the teacher was using very similar language to you, in setting up the body. Could it be that IP/IS skills all originated in India?

regards,

Mark

[ronin67]

I liked that comment Ed. There are many reasons I respect Ueshiba-as Ellis noted in his book- and first and foremost was this model.
I think confusion enters into the picture due to the lack of good models as I previously mentioned. Just as most people still think of their dads strength or power as daunting-due to them growing up admiring their dad- they still think of their teachers that way. So those who were indeed just the wallpaper of the budo world left a lack luster heritage. Love is indeed many times blind. Critical thinking and dispassionate review is the best way to go.
There is really no way to know if your aiki is truly worthwhile if all you do is play with your own group. Yet...what do we see the majority of people doing? Most of these people we see in the videos would all but completely fall apart if they ever stepped on the mat with people with serious aiki skills, much less serious fighting skills and aiki. So they avoid being exposed. Others confront, self-examine and grow.
Cheers
Dan
Too many people are just too sensitive and are just unable to make constructive criticism and take same as that. Bottom line, traditions and discipline still need to dictate the flow of any form of martial arts. Yes, you can have a informal class after the regular session, however you don't disregard the core concepts (falling properly and the flow of constructive/instructive discipline remains). If you want peace without discipline and a structured environment, take up something else. What we do in Aikido is still a martial discipline of self-defense (a form of combat).
You have liberals and conservatives in Aikido just like you do in politics. Some feel the traditional discipline of a dojo setting is not needed to get the same effect across, while others see no benefit from diverting from the disciplines of traditional/structured dojo discipline. I tend to favor the traditional, however, it is not to say that outside the traditional discipline of the dojo setting is bad either as long as the fundamentals of the techniques remain intact and the extension of KI is being used in EFFECTIVE waza.
If you are applying for example sankyo, and I'm not in pain on my tippy toes doing the safety dance, your Aikido is ineffective in traditional terms. However, in Graham's defense, it is also not fair by just looking at this video for me to draw a conclusion on how effective his Aikido is and his character. For that Graham, my apologies sir. May God bless

Ed

[Tim Ruijs]

What is displayed in these vids is most definitely not the way I practise, nor my teacher's.

I. simply. do. not. get. it. at. all.

When Graham says this is not teaching, just for fun, I am lost too. Where is the consistency in that?

[DH]

Too many people are just too sensitive and are just unable to make constructive criticism and take same as that. Bottom line, traditions and discipline still need to dictate the flow of any form of martial arts.
....in Graham's defense, it is also not fair by just looking at this video for me to draw a conclusion on how effective his Aikido is and his character. For that Graham, my apologies sir. May God bless
Ed
I think people are being too sensitive as well, particularly after they ask for opinions. That aside when it comes to Graham I'm not offering any opinions on his character..would you?
I was discussing his videos in light of many others, like the ones here (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20173). If someone doesn't want to discuss their work why do they put it up there to discuss?

It was Graham who began to tell us we do not understand aikido or kokyu so he offered to let us watch him display his self proclaimed mastery of aikido in this video apptly titled Two masters at play (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttipyZQTguE)
I have no problem withEd and Mary's comments that they cannot see aiki and kokyu visually Its just erroneous to say others can't. I can, and this does not demonstrate either.
Again, why is it that people keep presenting their work and then get upset at commentary...on the work.
1. The response that it is we don't understand seems perfectly fine.
2. For us to tell them they don't understand is bullying?
3. Who's understanding will will result in competence in person? What happens when one consistently and repeatedly fails in person?
4. What happens when it is tested?

When people in Budo make comments about effectiveness and call themselves a master and then present video, they enter into a dialogue. I would guess that it is safer to do from behind a keyboard. Just look at the amount of stress simple comments have produced. Were you to try it with people who actually do know the subject, I think I would agree with Mark Freeman;..."best to wear a hard hat because you are in for a bumpy ride."
Dan

[ryback]

It is funny, every time I practice Aikido, I'm always walking away with some type of bruise here or there. Not saying I'm all that, because I'm not.

Dojo discipline is also something stressed very much, at least in the KI Aikido dojo that I attend now (and to be honest every KI Aikido dojo I attended). Hats being worn in the dojo? That would never be acceptable in any KI Aikido Dojo I attended. If your into the long Bob Marley type hair that is fine, just tie it and let the bodies hit the floor (with KI and good waza). The Aikido has to be effective. The circular movement of the uke also looks dead. This is not a personal hit on the original poster (he is a very nice gentleman), but the "Hippie" Aikido just doesn't do it for me. It is missing the structure and discipline to me. I'm use to seeing people moving around with a sense of purpose and effective extension of KI, with good waza.

May God bless!

Ed

Of course! I agree totally! No etiquette, no attack, no waza, no ki...Non-resisting aikido? Looks more like non-existing aikido!

[ryback]

The tenet of budo was always... to be effective. Everyone keeps talking about how effective this or that teacher was, how amazing this or that teacher is...
Now it's, everyone is equal and everyone's practice is validated.
That's why I keep saying Budo is like how a good education should be- not everyone gets and "A."
All the best
Dan

Well said! I agree with everything! And if one wants to get an "A", he should at lest be looking to the right direction with his form of practice.

[graham christian]

What is displayed in these vids is most definitely not the way I practise, nor my teacher's.

I. simply. do. not. get. it. at. all.

When Graham says this is not teaching, just for fun, I am lost too. Where is the consistency in that?

Looks like you've all been having fun. That's good. I suppose if you all did get it, did understand, I would be confused so I'm glad you don't.

Tim, I didn't say this is not teaching it's just for fun. You're getting as bad as some others. Ha,ha.

The 'expert' opinions given as to effectiveness shows me those who do so obviously don't understand. Why they are upset by me saying this I don't know as it's self evident. They understand what they do but not what I do. Very simple.

Harmless, ultra effective. An unusual combination.

Have fun.G.

[ronin67]

Looks like you've all been having fun. That's good. I suppose if you all did get it, did understand, I would be confused so I'm glad you don't.

Tim, I didn't say this is not teaching it's just for fun. You're getting as bad as some others. Ha,ha.

The 'expert' opinions given as to effectiveness shows me those who do so obviously don't understand. Why they are upset by me saying this I don't know as it's self evident. They understand what they do but not what I do. Very simple.

Harmless, ultra effective. An unusual combination.

Have fun.G.

I guess the point is, when is Aikido ever done for fun? Just do us a favor and post a actual "not for fun" Aikido class you conduct or participate in. I'm sure if we saw this, then maybe we could understand. You started practicing Aikido since 1981. How old were you when you started then? Thanks Graham and may God bless!

Ed

[graham christian]

I guess the point is, when is Aikido ever done for fun? Just do us a favor and post a actual "not for fun" Aikido class you conduct or participate in. I'm sure if we saw this, then maybe we could understand. You started practicing Aikido since 1981. How old were you when you started then? Thanks Graham and may God bless!

Ed

Ed.
On coming to Aikiweb I thus discovered people were used to and wanted to see on screen ukes flying through the air, dynamic powerful looking demos, or instructional videos. Seems they can't look beyond that.
Therefore I said at the time that if I make some I shall post them.

However I act from purpose. My purpose is to show harmony not domination. In the past I used to not only tell people but show them and let them experience and thus give them choice. I would say this is 'whatever technique' samurai wise. This is the same technique buddhist wise. (my choice of terms)

Then I would ask which one they prefer, not only to have done on them but also to learn to do. The 'buddhist' way is what most chose for it is the one that blows their mind and speaks a thousand words. So why should I post videos that promote fighting or domination? There's plenty of them already and plenty, in fact the majority of dojos for them to go to. No shortage there.

Those who see something in my way, in what I show, learn and use it in life, in all manner of situations with great success. So why should I want those who see nothing in it? Obviously it's not what they are looking for.

There's nothing to prove.

Regards.G.

[ronin67]

Ed.
On coming to Aikiweb I thus discovered people were used to and wanted to see on screen ukes flying through the air, dynamic powerful looking demos, or instructional videos. Seems they can't look beyond that.
Therefore I said at the time that if I make some I shall post them.

However I act from purpose. My purpose is to show harmony not domination. In the past I used to not only tell people but show them and let them experience and thus give them choice. I would say this is 'whatever technique' samurai wise. This is the same technique buddhist wise. (my choice of terms)

Then I would ask which one they prefer, not only to have done on them but also to learn to do. The 'buddhist' way is what most chose for it is the one that blows their mind and speaks a thousand words. So why should I post videos that promote fighting or domination? There's plenty of them already and plenty, in fact the majority of dojos for them to go to. No shortage there.

Those who see something in my way, in what I show, learn and use it in life, in all manner of situations with great success. So why should I want those who see nothing in it? Obviously it's not what they are looking for.

There's nothing to prove.

Regards.G.

I guess you have to internalize however you can do it. Samurai wise and buddhist wise may be the same thing depending on what time in Japanese history you are talking about. Buddhism has had it share of violent moments and still today in certain parts of Asia, some Buddhist sects are violent and even kill Christian missionaries. So be careful how you categorize. Can you send me a homepage of the Aikido dojo you practice KI at? Also what dan are you and in what specific style (because it is not pure KI Aikido)? I understand where you are coming from as far as harmony. However, in every Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido dojo I practiced in, this was the ultimate goal, however the end result of KI causing pain in the waza still existed (and will always). You can only transcend peace and harmony so far without the deeper understanding of KI breathing (misogi). How often do you do KI breathing exercises as prescribed by Tohei Sensei?

May God bless!

Ed

[Tim Ruijs]

Graham

My comment was not intended to be judgemental. Sorry if it came across like that. Everyone is entitled to their own practise. You made no statement whatsever whether the vids show techniques that are effective, or whatsoever. That is however how my eyes look at Aikido, because that has my interest (there is some material of my teacher Alain Peyrache, should it interest you, perhaps you would like to take a look at it).

I responded to the fact that you yourself said what is shown on the vids is not actual practise. To me that is not consistent: you do Aikido always in the same sense/intention. There is no morning Aikido, evening Aikido, wednesday Aikido, or Aikido just for fun.

BTW I have always wanted to be a bad ass...;)

[Eric Winters]

Hello,

It is possible to tell by video if someone has " The Goods " or not. There are certain quality's good budoka have and if you know what to look for you can easily tell. Good bodoka maybe soft but never floppy and they have a connection to the ground that is very obvious to see. You can also tell by how their waza effects the uke.

Best,

Eric

[Eric Winters]

Hello again,

I do not agree with most of what Tony Wagstaff and Graham Christian say but at least they had the balls to put video's up of themselves. There are a lot of people on aikiweb that ask for video of others but have never put their own up for everybody else to see and critique. If one is not willing to put up a video of themselves, then you should not ask it of others.

Best,

Eric

[graham christian]

Graham

My comment was not intended to be judgemental. Sorry if it came across like that. Everyone is entitled to their own practise. You made no statement whatsever whether the vids show techniques that are effective, or whatsoever. That is however how my eyes look at Aikido, because that has my interest (there is some material of my teacher Alain Peyrache, should it interest you, perhaps you would like to take a look at it).

I responded to the fact that you yourself said what is shown on the vids is not actual practise. To me that is not consistent: you do Aikido always in the same sense/intention. There is no morning Aikido, evening Aikido, wednesday Aikido, or Aikido just for fun.

BTW I have always wanted to be a bad ass...;)

Hi Tim.
It's that word 'practice.' A few clips put together for fiends which also add up to about five minutes doesn't give much of a view of overall practice.

Then there's the factor of who the ukemi is which would make for a different image. By the way, my classes usually last abt. 3 hours. You can't really equate me with any standard style for I am independent. I have made statements that the techniques are effective and it is precisely that point that many 'disagree' with.

I will look up some of the vids of the person you mention and if you like even give my opinion.

Regards.G.

[sorokod]

A few clips put together for fiends which also add up to about five minutes doesn't give much of a view of overall practice.

Which one of these http://www.youtube.com/user/humblegee#g/u thirty+ videos does?

[graham christian]

Which one of these http://www.youtube.com/user/humblegee#g/u thirty+ videos does?

What do you mean? No little video can. Now a video can be made for a specific purpose, let's say teaching. So none of them were made for that, that would be a totally differently presented video would it not?

Could be done to promote an organization or club etc. So once again no, none of them.

Could be done for fun. Yep, closer. Could be done also to see if people say ' That looks different, how do you do that?' Well, that's one thing I found don't happen. Ha, ha.

Then to discover what people think they are seeing. That's what perks my interest.

Regards.G.

[graham christian]

I guess you have to internalize however you can do it. Samurai wise and buddhist wise may be the same thing depending on what time in Japanese history you are talking about. Buddhism has had it share of violent moments and still today in certain parts of Asia, some Buddhist sects are violent and even kill Christian missionaries. So be careful how you categorize. Can you send me a homepage of the Aikido dojo you practice KI at? Also what dan are you and in what specific style (because it is not pure KI Aikido)? I understand where you are coming from as far as harmony. However, in every Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido dojo I practiced in, this was the ultimate goal, however the end result of KI causing pain in the waza still existed (and will always). You can only transcend peace and harmony so far without the deeper understanding of KI breathing (misogi). How often do you do KI breathing exercises as prescribed by Tohei Sensei?

May God bless!

Ed

Thanks for your opinion Ed.

When I categorize in person the person has no doubt of the difference so no need to be careful how I categorize.

You tell me you can only transcend with the deeper understanding of misogi breathing. That's not the only way, it's a way. I would have to look up Toheis methods to answer you for all I know is what I do. How often? All the time I breathe from centre.

I do have a question for you though. What do you think my view of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido is? You seem to be defending it.

Regards.G.

[ronin67]

Thanks for your opinion Ed.

When I categorize in person the person has no doubt of the difference so no need to be careful how I categorize.

You tell me you can only transcend with the deeper understanding of misogi breathing. That's not the only way, it's a way. I would have to look up Toheis methods to answer you for all I know is what I do. How often? All the time I breathe from centre.

I do have a question for you though. What do you think my view of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido is? You seem to be defending it.

Regards.G.

I would say your opinion on breathing from the one point/focusing on the point is very correct. I would say you understand, however the practice method (as outlined in the video/having fun after practice or not formalized practice), just didn't seem correct. I have had many informal instructions after class by my instructor at the time (Tabata Sensei/Honolulu KI Society), but if he applied a technique, we still had to fall the way we normally would during class. If we didn't, we would get a ear full or a smack on the head to wake up and perform the fall correctly. He was very old fashion in his teaching methods (older style Japanese sensei). We knew this and accepted his method of Teaching KI Aikido. At the time he was 73. He insured the waza was effective, if it wasn't and you were just going with it, he could tell your mind and body wasn't coordinated and he would then show the technique to you and your partner (to a painful end result). So when I hear others dismiss KI Aikido as ineffective, I ask myself "Where did these people learn"? It definitely wasn't from my sensei. Everyday before practice he made it a point to ask all the students how much KI breathing they did thru the week. If you were told him none, it would suck to be you that practice session. He knew the great benefit from KI breathing (misogi). The more you did it, the more aware you were of your one point.

I guess looking back now, I never realized how good a sensei he was. He was the hardest sensei I ever learned from, but he made sure you understood KI and what effective waza was. He was one of the first U.S., students of Tohei sensei both when he was still with the Aikikai and when Tohei Sensei split from the Aikikai and formed Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido. In many instructor classes he would show the changed techniques from when he first learned under Tohei sensei (Aikikai) and how Tohei Sensei changed the technique with KI Aikido. Both techniques were effective, but with the KI method more flowing and relaxed with the same painful result (no invisible touch crap, I still haven't seen how that works or why that is even taught by some who profess to follow KI Aikido). The one waza where I only saw this no touch technique was the hand extended thru the forehead of the akemi. The reason for this is because if you don't fall, you get the intent of the technique for the person who attacks you on the street (finger/hand projected thru the eye socket).

One big point my sensei stressed, that many from under the Aikikai umbrella disagree with (although I have meet a few who do agree and practice misogi/KI breathing), is that you can only progress so far in learning KI extension by waza alone.

So in closing I would say, if you throw the words KI Aikido around, it has to be with effective waza also. There is nothing magic about KI, without effective waza to show how KI really works when it flows. But from my experience, to truly enhance KI extension/relaxation the KI breathing has to be part of the regiment to increase relaxation and the extension of KI to its fullest. This equals more effective waza. Funny how that works. The more KI breathing, the more smooth and effective your waza is. The more waza effectiveness, the more proper extension of KI. So the emphasis of the training on both is essential (from my experience with Aikido). Not just the waza.

May God bless you Graham.

Ed

[sorokod]

What do you mean? No little video can. Now a video can be made for a specific purpose, let's say teaching. So none of them were made for that, that would be a totally differently presented video would it not?

Could be done to promote an organization or club etc. So once again no, none of them.

Could be done for fun. Yep, closer. Could be done also to see if people say ' That looks different, how do you do that?' Well, that's one thing I found don't happen. Ha, ha.

Then to discover what people think they are seeing. That's what perks my interest.

Regards.G.

You have there ( http://www.youtube.com/user/humblegee#g/u ) about five hours worth of videos, not a "little video" territory anymore. The videos themselves seem to capture fragments of your normal classes and this is how they are perceived by me (and perhaps others).

[Hellis]

Then to discover what people think they are seeing. That's what perks my interest.

Regards.G.

Graham

There are many very experienced Aikidoka on this forum. Not wishing to upset the sensitivities of your friend Mary - I would suggest that most of them know exactly what they are seeing.

Henry Ellis
Aikido in MMA
http://rik-ellis.blogspot.com/

[Tim Ruijs]

I stand corrected when you say to have made statements about effectiveness. I have just become just as bad as the others I am afraid.

Practise or not, like I said earlier: there is no morning Aikido, no evening Aikido, no wednesday night Aikido, just Aikido always. When you allow yourself to slack for whatever reason you are off the Path. That is why I said it is not consistent.

I would be interested to know what you think of Alain Peyrache (or Tamura Sensei for that matter). Alain has some promotional vids (stills and very short movies) but at least give an impression. Tamura Sensei has much more material available.
Now I am not telling you this to convince you, merely to show perhaps a quite different approach. I am sure others may provide teachers of similar quality.

Lastly, like Henry said respect your audience. Also the ones that do not respond...

[Mary Eastland]

Graham

There are many very experienced Aikidoka on this forum. Not wishing to upset the sensitivities of your friend Mary - I would suggest that most of them know exactly what they are seeing.

Henry Ellis
Aikido in MMA
http://rik-ellis.blogspot.com/

Thank you, Henry, for your kind consideration. :cool:

I watched one of your videos and although I thought you were a bit stiff...I explored the technique in my last few classes. I find it very effective. It allows for realistic technique and for practice of ki extension.
Thank you for putting the video up.
Best,
Mary

[sakumeikan]

Thank you, Henry, for your kind consideration. :cool:

I watched one of your videos and although I thought you were a bit stiff...I explored the technique in my last few classes. I find it very effective. It allows for realistic technique and for practice of ki extension.
Thank you for putting the video up.
Best,
Mary
Dear Mary,
I guess when anyone over seventy is still training the person in question might well lack some synovial fluid in their joints.Knowing Mr Ellis well, I can attest to his longevity in Aikido.He is a fine example of a man who tries to protect the heritage of the art.He does not suffer fools gladly and calls it as he sees it. This is sometimes misconstrued by some.I find Mr Ellis quite refreshing and always
enjoy his contributions to the Forum.
Cheers, Joe.

[sakumeikan]

Hello,

It is possible to tell by video if someone has " The Goods " or not. There are certain quality's good budoka have and if you know what to look for you can easily tell. Good bodoka maybe soft but never floppy and they have a connection to the ground that is very obvious to see. You can also tell by how their waza effects the uke.

Best,

Eric
Dear Eric,
Cannot agree more with your comments.Cheers, Joe.

[graham christian]

I would say your opinion on breathing from the one point/focusing on the point is very correct. I would say you understand, however the practice method (as outlined in the video/having fun after practice or not formalized practice), just didn't seem correct. I have had many informal instructions after class by my instructor at the time (Tabata Sensei/Honolulu KI Society), but if he applied a technique, we still had to fall the way we normally would during class. If we didn't, we would get a ear full or a smack on the head to wake up and perform the fall correctly. He was very old fashion in his teaching methods (older style Japanese sensei). We knew this and accepted his method of Teaching KI Aikido. At the time he was 73. He insured the waza was effective, if it wasn't and you were just going with it, he could tell your mind and body wasn't coordinated and he would then show the technique to you and your partner (to a painful end result). So when I hear others dismiss KI Aikido as ineffective, I ask myself "Where did these people learn"? It definitely wasn't from my sensei. Everyday before practice he made it a point to ask all the students how much KI breathing they did thru the week. If you were told him none, it would suck to be you that practice session. He knew the great benefit from KI breathing (misogi). The more you did it, the more aware you were of your one point.

I guess looking back now, I never realized how good a sensei he was. He was the hardest sensei I ever learned from, but he made sure you understood KI and what effective waza was. He was one of the first U.S., students of Tohei sensei both when he was still with the Aikikai and when Tohei Sensei split from the Aikikai and formed Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido. In many instructor classes he would show the changed techniques from when he first learned under Tohei sensei (Aikikai) and how Tohei Sensei changed the technique with KI Aikido. Both techniques were effective, but with the KI method more flowing and relaxed with the same painful result (no invisible touch crap, I still haven't seen how that works or why that is even taught by some who profess to follow KI Aikido). The one waza where I only saw this no touch technique was the hand extended thru the forehead of the akemi. The reason for this is because if you don't fall, you get the intent of the technique for the person who attacks you on the street (finger/hand projected thru the eye socket).

One big point my sensei stressed, that many from under the Aikikai umbrella disagree with (although I have meet a few who do agree and practice misogi/KI breathing), is that you can only progress so far in learning KI extension by waza alone.

So in closing I would say, if you throw the words KI Aikido around, it has to be with effective waza also. There is nothing magic about KI, without effective waza to show how KI really works when it flows. But from my experience, to truly enhance KI extension/relaxation the KI breathing has to be part of the regiment to increase relaxation and the extension of KI to its fullest. This equals more effective waza. Funny how that works. The more KI breathing, the more smooth and effective your waza is. The more waza effectiveness, the more proper extension of KI. So the emphasis of the training on both is essential (from my experience with Aikido). Not just the waza.

May God bless you Graham.

Ed

Hi Ed. I like the clear writing. I also like the picture of your old sensei. A bit like mine.

I understand what you expect to see in videos and if I had posted some ten years ago they probably would have been similar to how you describe.

Throwing the words Ki Aikido around? I think you may have assumed something there. Look up the thread of mine called strength verse Ki. I think you might like it.

I do like what you say in the last paragraph and cannot disagree that they all go together. Well put.

Thanks for the well put response. G.

[graham christian]

You have there ( http://www.youtube.com/user/humblegee#g/u ) about five hours worth of videos, not a "little video" territory anymore. The videos themselves seem to capture fragments of your normal classes and this is how they are perceived by me (and perhaps others).

Hi David.
Well let's do the maths first then shall we? Five hours, each one being aprrox. one thirtsixth of the total hours done. Mmmmm. So that is five hours taken from one hundred and eighty hours.

O.K. That's for perspective.

Granted, they capture fragments and indeed more, even the gist of my classes. They capture it only if you know what you are seeing of course.

Regards.G.

[graham christian]

Graham

There are many very experienced Aikidoka on this forum. Not wishing to upset the sensitivities of your friend Mary - I would suggest that most of them know exactly what they are seeing.

Henry Ellis
Aikido in MMA
http://rik-ellis.blogspot.com/

Henry. They're not experienced in mine I'm afraid so all they have is opinion. Nothing wrong with that though as it's a forum for such.

Regards.G.

[graham christian]

I stand corrected when you say to have made statements about effectiveness. I have just become just as bad as the others I am afraid.

Practise or not, like I said earlier: there is no morning Aikido, no evening Aikido, no wednesday night Aikido, just Aikido always. When you allow yourself to slack for whatever reason you are off the Path. That is why I said it is not consistent.

I would be interested to know what you think of Alain Peyrache (or Tamura Sensei for that matter). Alain has some promotional vids (stills and very short movies) but at least give an impression. Tamura Sensei has much more material available.
Now I am not telling you this to convince you, merely to show perhaps a quite different approach. I am sure others may provide teachers of similar quality.

Lastly, like Henry said respect your audience. Also the ones that do not respond...

Hi Tim.
I did look up Alain Peyrache Sensei. Lots of stills and a few very short videos so not too much to go on there. However there was enough for me to see a very accomplished Aikido Teacher. When I watch videos I look for the pluses rather than to criticise. When I saw students practising and many 'failures' I smiled at how the uke's were not throwing themselves. Very good.
I'll go look at some Tamura ones.

I know the approaches very well so don't think I am in the slightest unaware of the various and indeed expected approaches. My approach is the different one.

That doesn't make me put down any approach though. I admire all Aikido. They are all different and so they should be.

Thanks for your thoughts. Regards.G.

[andy crowe]

Looks like you've all been having fun. That's good. I suppose if you all did get it, did understand, I would be confused so I'm glad you don't ...
Harmless, ultra effective. An unusual combination.


I've just seen the original video for the first time today; I get it and I like it. :)

It seems to be a nice, mellow, flowing and playful post-session bit of fun and exploration. Nice choice of music as well.

I was more concerned about the uke disturbing the Kiatsu session than anthing else I saw.

In many ways it reminded me of the cool-down drills I used to do at the end of a training session when I was swimming competetively many years ago.

Thanks for posting it up Graham.

[niall]

Hello again,

I do not agree with most of what Tony Wagstaff and Graham Christian say but at least they had the balls to put video's up of themselves. There are a lot of people on aikiweb that ask for video of others but have never put their own up for everybody else to see and critique. If one is not willing to put up a video of themselves, then you should not ask it of others.

Yes, right. The linking of Tony and Graham is interesting too. What is it about them that causes so many people to lose their centre, their equilibrium and their common sense and to make judgemental and sometimes offensive remarks? I think it's a nice ability.

That doesn't make me put down any approach though. I admire all Aikido. They are all different and so they should be.

So Graham stays centred. Tony does too. Draw your own conclusions about their aikido.

[Tim Ruijs]

Graham

Glad to hear (read) you took some time to take a look at Alain. ;) He is not too fond about videos. He does not want people to judge him based on some vid and perhaps dismiss it. He has similar feelings towards pictures. Hence not much material to work with...

Many forms/styles of Aikido exist which is no problem at all. Discussion occurs when making claims about something or other and that too is no problem. Like teaching to express your opinion makes you think about what you do (or think you should be doing), we interact, adapt and basically do Aikido...

To put up your vid shows cohones and makes you vulnerable. Respect. :cool:

[Hellis]

Dear Mary,
I guess when anyone over seventy is still training the person in question might well lack some synovial fluid in their joints.Knowing Mr Ellis well, I can attest to his longevity in Aikido.He is a fine example of a man who tries to protect the heritage of the art.He does not suffer fools gladly and calls it as he sees it. This is sometimes misconstrued by some.I find Mr Ellis quite refreshing and always
enjoy his contributions to the Forum.
Cheers, Joe.

Hi Joe
Its not so much a lack of knee lubricants – more early signs of rigor mortis ..:)
There was I thinking I could pretend to be half my age - but there’s no foolin Ms Mary with her super keen sensitivities.
Of course one can now see why Ms Mary is so protective of Graham with their own interpretation of Aikido, they appear to share a similar style ( without matching hats ) Who are we humble old timers to argue with a lady who is a `` Certified Master Instructor ``.

Henry Ellis
Aikido in MMA
http://rik-ellis.blogspot.com/

[sorokod]

Yes, right. The linking of Tony and Graham is interesting too. What is it about them that causes so many people to lose their centre, their equilibrium and their common sense and to make judgemental and sometimes offensive remarks? I think it's a nice ability.

So Graham stays centred. Tony does too. Draw your own conclusions about their aikido.

The ability to talk about Aikido is not to be confused with the ability to do Aikido. One is much easier then the other.

[Tim Ruijs]

Henry

Well, there is younger version of you around:D I recently saw a vid where you explained something and Rik displayed it at full speed (if I remember correctly jodantsuki irimi). Impressive, allthough it borders precariously on actual fighting (not surprisingly considering Rik's experience).
At some age the experience and wisdom is much more important than physical skill...certified...blablabla...proof is in the pudding!

[niall]

The ability to talk about Aikido is not to be confused with the ability to do Aikido. One is much easier then the other.

I'm not quite sure why I am quoted there. I didn't mention either of these abilities. I did mention two other abilities though. The ability to infuriate people so much that they lose their centre and the ability to stay centred themselves.

One of the other things I mentioned was being judgemental. You know, the can I help you with that 2 by 4 sticking out of your eye kind of judgemental. The other thing I mentioned was being offensive. I have never heard a high-ranked budoka from any martial art put down another budo or another style or another budoka. Never. So I draw my own conclusions about the people who post derogatory comments.

[sorokod]

"One of the other things I mentioned was being judgemental."

Judgemental, as in making your opinion public? For some reason this is considered to be rude or perhaps politically incorrect, I do not subscribe to this approach and judging :-) from your post neither do you.

"You know, the can I help you with that 2 by 4 sticking out of your eye kind of judgemental"

I do not understand this sentence, what does it mean?


"I have never heard a high-ranked budoka from any martial art put down another budo or another style or another budoka. Never."

My experience is different.

"So I draw my own conclusions about the people who post derogatory comments."

Naturally, one might even say that you judge people by their comments :-)

[Tim Ruijs]

I have never heard a high-ranked budoka from any martial art put down another budo or another style or another budoka. Never.
You clearly have never met my teacher :D
All fun aside. Most high ranked teachers I have met often said: this is how I do it. You must find your way. But were very clear when you were doing it wrong (which in fact is judgemental). I have also met teachers that made comparisions to other styles to which they disagreed.

A small story
I remember my first ever seminar with Fujitsa and Kanetsuka Sensei. For those that do not know them, Fujitsa is quite a big fellow and Kanetsuka is a small guy (Ueshiba's posture). Their styles have adapted accordingly: one makes big movements, the other very small. They had class immediately after eachother. So when Kanetsuka finished and Fujitsa took over class he made fun of the small movements, told him he was trying to hide the secrets from us. Everyone laughed, including Kanetsuka. But off course in very good spirit, never putting down. Clearly with the highest mutual respect.


So I draw my own conclusions about the people who post derogatory comments.At least it shows were they stand, but I would rather not judge them on it.

[Peter Goldsbury]

Hello Tim,

Did you know that Masatake Fujita and Minoru Kanetsuka have a sempai / kohai relationship based on their membership of the Aikido club at Takushoku University? Gozo Shioda was the shihan at this university and I believe that Tanaka Shigeho was also a student.

I remember a grading examination in Holland, way back when Mr Bacas was active. M Kanetsuka (MK) was examining the kyu grade students, but M Fujita (MF), as the visiting shihan, had to be present at the tests. The morning kyu tests took for ages as MK went through the book. MF actually had knee problems and began to complain (to me, kneeling right beside him) about the time this was taking. In the afternoon MF held the dan examinations and everything was finished in about ten minutes.

Nothing was ever stated about the difference.

Best wishes,

[niall]

It's a simple point. In Japanese budo - in Japan anyway which is where I live - you are taught to respect other styles and other budoka. This is a quote from the dojo rules of a koryu.

Rule 6. Please refrain from making negative comments in reference to other forms or styles of budo.
Shinbukan Kuroda Dojo Rules of Conduct

So if there are any derogatory comments they won't be from high-ranking budoka.

[Alex Megann]

I remember a grading examination in Holland, way back when Mr Bacas was active. M Kanetsuka (MK) was examining the kyu grade students, but M Fujita (MF), as the visiting shihan, had to be present at the tests. The morning kyu tests took for ages as MK went through the book. MF actually had knee problems and began to complain (to me, kneeling right beside him) about the time this was taking. In the afternoon MF held the dan examinations and everything was finished in about ten minutes.

Nothing was ever stated about the difference.

Best wishes,

Hi Peter,

That sums up the difference between my sandan and yondan grading examinations!

On the first occasion, it was a rare year at the BAF Summer School when we didn't have a visiting shihan from Hombu, so Kanetsuka Sensei led the grading himself, and - as you say - he wanted to make sure that anyone who passed was up to the mark. It was a very hot, humid week, and I was out on the tatami along with two yondan candidates; after two hours of every combination of attacks and ukes I was literally the last man standing, and even then a few days later I ended up at A&E with kidney stones.

On the second occasion, Fujita Sensei was in charge of the yudansha gradings. It had been a busy week and there had been more than the usual number of candidates for the preceding gradings. The four of us going for yondan came out nervously with our two assigned ukes and after the rei Fujita Sensei said "Anything!". After consultation among the grading committee, it was confirmed that Fujita Sensei wanted us to show whatever we liked, from any attack we chose. My heart sank, as I felt I was in for a long ordeal, and in my nervousness I knew I would forget half what I knew. After about fifteen minutes, Fujita Sensei called out "yame", and it was over! It turned out that his knees were particularly uncomfortable that morning....

Alex

[phitruong]

So if there are any derogatory comments they won't be from high-ranking budoka.

the art of insulting people using kind words is a long practice in asia that went way way back; thus you have the omote and ura. what nice in front, often isn't so.

[Tim Ruijs]

Hello Tim,

Did you know that Masatake Fujita and Minoru Kanetsuka have a sempai / kohai relationship based on their membership of the Aikido club at Takushoku University? Gozo Shioda was the shihan at this university and I believe that Tanaka Shigeho was also a student.

I remember a grading examination in Holland, way back when Mr Bacas was active. M Kanetsuka (MK) was examining the kyu grade students, but M Fujita (MF), as the visiting shihan, had to be present at the tests. The morning kyu tests took for ages as MK went through the book. MF actually had knee problems and began to complain (to me, kneeling right beside him) about the time this was taking. In the afternoon MF held the dan examinations and everything was finished in about ten minutes.

Nothing was ever stated about the difference.

Best wishes,
I am very sorry for misprinting his name, Fujita Sensei.
Never knew this relationship. My nephew practised in the Kanetsuka lineage for a few years before I started Aikido. Actually it was because of my nephew I started Aikido in the first place. I had only had a handful (literally!) of lessons and went to summerschool (bought my first Gi there). Afterwards I found my way to the Tamura lineage by matter of chance (nearest teacher was in this lineage).

This was really decades ago. Must have been late eighties I guess. Yup, been fiddling around with Aikido that long already...still know nothing.;) DeDobbelear was also there. I remember him on the dance floor doing all kind of techniques like a dance, wonderful!

There was no statement on difference, they had a bit of fun isall.

[Peter Goldsbury]

Yes. In those days the politics was not about the kind of aikido practised; it was about the Dutch organizations.

PAG

[DH]

It's a simple point. In Japanese budo - in Japan anyway which is where I live - you are taught to respect other styles and other budoka. This is a quote from the dojo rules of a koryu.

Shinbukan Kuroda Dojo Rules of Conduct

So if there are any derogatory comments they won't be from high-ranking budoka.
Oh Bull....
I have been in rooms with some of the highest ranked people out there. Their views and opinions about what has become a deplorable state of affairs in the Asian arts (JMA and ICMA) are very strong, even severe.
Again, budo is about an effective means to accomplish a goal. If you cannot deliver...the last thing you should be doing is advertising that fact in a video. Unfortunately, in the modern era, these gentle folks who continue to infect the Asian arts don't have a clue how truly bad they are. The good news (for them at least) is that they can avoid confronting their failures and lack of understanding and convince themselves they have achieved a level of understanding worth having.
All of this has contributed to ruining the reputation of the arts,
not helping them.

Budo was never this way. The entire sum of the history of budo was of being tested. Everyone goes on and on about the effectiveness of their teachers. Now we have to give every Mary and Johnny an "A" and tell them they are all equal so we don't hurt their feelings because they cannot perform or compete as equals to those who put in more time and did better work. :rolleyes:
The martial arts have always had master class people who stood out against the budo wall paper. Never have I seen the wallpaper crying out to be equal of their betters...usually they just asked how to get better themselves.
Dan

[Hellis]

Henry

Well, there is younger version of you around:D I recently saw a vid where you explained something and Rik displayed it at full speed (if I remember correctly jodantsuki irimi). Impressive, allthough it borders precariously on actual fighting (not surprisingly considering Rik's experience).
At some age the experience and wisdom is much more important than physical skill...certified...blablabla...proof is in the pudding!

Tim

A younger and more handsome version :)
Thanks for your comments - some people can't see beyond their key ring..

Henry Ellis
Article - Steven Seagal - Rik Ellis in " Fighters Only"
http://rik-ellis.blogspot.com/

[graham christian]

Graham

Glad to hear (read) you took some time to take a look at Alain. ;) He is not too fond about videos. He does not want people to judge him based on some vid and perhaps dismiss it. He has similar feelings towards pictures. Hence not much material to work with...

Many forms/styles of Aikido exist which is no problem at all. Discussion occurs when making claims about something or other and that too is no problem. Like teaching to express your opinion makes you think about what you do (or think you should be doing), we interact, adapt and basically do Aikido...

To put up your vid shows cohones and makes you vulnerable. Respect. :cool:

Hi Tim.
Nicely put. I looked up Maruyama Sensei. Very good. I loved his kokyunage especially. I'm tempted to say 'that's what I'm talking about' but that's just me.

Regards.G.

[niall]

Oh Bull....
I have been in rooms with some of the highest ranked people out there. Their views and opinions about what has become a deplorable state of affairs in the Asian arts (JMA and ICMA) are very strong, even severe.
Again, budo is about an effective means to accomplish a goal. If you cannot deliver...the last thing you should be doing is advertising that fact in a video. Unfortunately, in the modern era, these gentle folks who continue to infect the Asian arts don't have a clue how truly bad they are. The good news (for them at least) is that they can avoid confronting their failures and lack of understanding and convince themselves they have achieved a level of understanding worth having.
All of this has contributed to ruining the reputation of the arts,
not helping them.

Budo was never this way. The entire sum of the history of budo was of being tested. Everyone goes on and on about the effectiveness of their teachers. Now we have to give every Mary and Johnny an "A" and tell them they are all equal so we don't hurt their feelings because they cannot perform or compete as equals to those who put in more time and did better work. :rolleyes:
The martial arts have always had master class people who stood out against the budo wall paper. Never have I seen the wallpaper crying out to be equal of their betters...usually they just asked how to get better themselves.
Dan

I gave a specific example from kobudo and it's bull? But I thought you didn't do aikido. Difficult to tell really because you don't post a profile or a video as someone else pointed out. A couple of people have told me positive things about meeting you in person which is why I didn't just hit the ignore button immediately. Well I doubt if jazz musicians pay much attention to the opinions of folk musicians about jazz either.

Who is giving A's here or anywhere? If you treat people with respect you can be constructive without being derogatory. When this was first posted I sent Graham a list of technical points to think about. It's up to him whether he wants to. But aikido is big enough and wide enough and deep enough to embrace many philosophies and approaches, not just the ones you or I think are best.

In fact maybe this discussion is just a difference in philosophy. You seem to think that there are a lot of bad aikidoka out there. Well I don't. Just aikidoka who don't understand very well yet. If they keep training sincerely they will one day. If they are not training sincerely now maybe they will one day.

I don't agree with the point about videos of softer styles ruining the reputation of aikido. Serious budoka know that there are some great aikidoka. Who cares what other people think.

[graham christian]

Well said Niall.
Indeed you did on first posting send me some technical points to consider, I remember them well. All I am given I receive in the spirit from which it is given and yours were given in good spirit.

Different philosophies and different approaches indeed.

I can still smile at the fact that these videos still bring about discussion. Mainly by those who think they know what's happening in them. Thus I can learn much.

As I am the only one who knows what is being done at each moment then they serve to show me who is assuming, who doesn't understand them, who is curious, who can give pertinent communication.

Putting up a video can lead to much learning by the the poster.

In fact the whole question of how can 'softness' be martial is one that those asking the question need to learn the answer to in my opinion. But I digress.

As Aikido as I see it should lead to a more stable, active (yet unreactive) considerate individual then you portray the spirit of Aikido.

Oh, and not to forget a good sense of humour. So when you have reached your highest belt ranking then you can move onto hats.

Regards.G.

[Tim Ruijs]

Hi Tim.
Nicely put. I looked up Maruyama Sensei. Very good. I loved his kokyunage especially. I'm tempted to say 'that's what I'm talking about' but that's just me.

The teacher I mentioned was Nobuyoshi Tamura. So I am a bit confused how Maruyama came up. :confused:

[graham christian]

The teacher I mentioned was Nobuyoshi Tamura. So I am a bit confused how Maruyama came up. :confused:

Apologies Tim.
You tell me Nikkyo and I do Sankyo. Ha, ha.

So I just watched some of Nobuyoshi Tamura and they looked great. I liked his calmness and the change from calmness to action. I felt his movement was very relaxed and fluid yet definite. Technically superb. What more can I say? Except by watching the effect he seemed to have on the Audiences let alone the uke's and his general demeaner he seems like he was also a great man.May he rest in peace.

http://youtu.be/Uk9YCofJHkg

Regards.G.

[Hellis]

Well said Niall.

As I am the only one who knows what is being done at each moment then they serve to show me who is assuming, who doesn't understand them, who is curious, who can give pertinent communication.
Putting up a video can lead to much learning by the the poster.
Regards.G.

Graham

You really do undermine the knowledge and experience that many posters on this forum have, to suggest that `` only you understand what is being done `` ..It is obvious to me what is being done - not much.

Henry Ellis
Aikido Articles
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/

[graham christian]

Graham

You really do undermine the knowledge and experience that many posters on this forum have, to suggest that `` only you understand what is being done `` ..It is obvious to me what is being done - not much.

Henry Ellis
Aikido Articles
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/

Really? How so?

[Marc Abrams]

I gave a specific example from kobudo and it's bull? But I thought you didn't do aikido. Difficult to tell really because you don't post a profile or a video as someone else pointed out. A couple of people have told me positive things about meeting you in person which is why I didn't just hit the ignore button immediately. Well I doubt if jazz musicians pay much attention to the opinions of folk musicians about jazz either.

Who is giving A's here or anywhere? If you treat people with respect you can be constructive without being derogatory. When this was first posted I sent Graham a list of technical points to think about. It's up to him whether he wants to. But aikido is big enough and wide enough and deep enough to embrace many philosophies and approaches, not just the ones you or I think are best.

In fact maybe this discussion is just a difference in philosophy. You seem to think that there are a lot of bad aikidoka out there. Well I don't. Just aikidoka who don't understand very well yet. If they keep training sincerely they will one day. If they are not training sincerely now maybe they will one day.

I don't agree with the point about videos of softer styles ruining the reputation of aikido. Serious budoka know that there are some great aikidoka. Who cares what other people think.

Niall:

You have met several people who have had "hands on" with Dan. Have you met anybody who has had "hands on" with the original poster? Opinions of people you know should indicate something.

Uncle Darwin is handing out grades. The world history of conflicts is filled with the graves of many who could not adequately do and less so of those who could do. Those that could do passed on skill sets, knowledge, etc... Regardless of how big or small the "Aikido umbrella" is, there is still the underlying reality that cannot be escaped. Does it genuinely work? Is it budo? Dan and others are not talking about philosophy, but about the work product.

Toby Threadgill's teacher talked about practicing something wrong 1 million times does not make you any better. Training sincerely in the wrong direction usually never helps.

As far as soft goes, I would venture to say that Dan is far softer in what he does that most people you will meet in the martial arts world. The genuine effectiveness of what he does more than speaks for itself. That is why so many well-informed people in the martial arts world train with him.

Henry Ellis neatly described one of the many perceive "problems" with the original poster: You really do undermine the knowledge and experience that many posters on this forum have, to suggest that `` only you understand what is being done `` ..It is obvious to me what is being done - not much.

Pretty much sums it up in my book. Oh well, off to change for a day of working with Dan.... :D

Marc Abrams

[MM]

Graham

You really do undermine the knowledge and experience that many posters on this forum have, to suggest that `` only you understand what is being done `` ..It is obvious to me what is being done - not much.

Henry Ellis
Aikido Articles
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/

Mr. Ellis,
Hello. Your post made me laugh. Thank you for that. Your direct manner is refreshing and, IMO, spot on.

Best to you,
Mark

[graham christian]

Mr. Ellis,
Hello. Your post made me laugh. Thank you for that. Your direct manner is refreshing and, IMO, spot on.

Best to you,
Mark

Spot on indeed.

[graham christian]

Niall:

You have met several people who have had "hands on" with Dan. Have you met anybody who has had "hands on" with the original poster? Opinions of people you know should indicate something.

Uncle Darwin is handing out grades. The world history of conflicts is filled with the graves of many who could not adequately do and less so of those who could do. Those that could do passed on skill sets, knowledge, etc... Regardless of how big or small the "Aikido umbrella" is, there is still the underlying reality that cannot be escaped. Does it genuinely work? Is it budo? Dan and others are not talking about philosophy, but about the work product.

Toby Threadgill's teacher talked about practicing something wrong 1 million times does not make you any better. Training sincerely in the wrong direction usually never helps.

As far as soft goes, I would venture to say that Dan is far softer in what he does that most people you will meet in the martial arts world. The genuine effectiveness of what he does more than speaks for itself. That is why so many well-informed people in the martial arts world train with him.

Henry Ellis neatly described one of the many perceive "problems" with the original poster: You really do undermine the knowledge and experience that many posters on this forum have, to suggest that `` only you understand what is being done `` ..It is obvious to me what is being done - not much.

Pretty much sums it up in my book. Oh well, off to change for a day of working with Dan.... :D

Marc Abrams

Interesting. So video of someone does equal you know then?

Mmmm. Saying you know as the doer undermines those who have never met you. Mmmmm.

Methinks there's a different definition of knowing being used. I'm quite happy knowing I can watch a video and know I don't actually know.

I can also say for instance your view I don't understand. Nothing wrong with saying you don't understand unless ego gets in the way.

Have fun.G.

[Tim Ruijs]

So I just watched some of Nobuyoshi Tamura and they looked great. I liked his calmness and the change from calmness to action. I felt his movement was very relaxed and fluid yet definite.
He was indeed very dynamic. Very friendly, humble man with a bite :D

[DH]

I gave a specific example from kobudo and it's bull? But I thought you didn't do aikido. Difficult to tell really because you don't post a profile or a video as someone else pointed out. A couple of people have told me positive things about meeting you in person which is why I didn't just hit the ignore button immediately. Well I doubt if jazz musicians pay much attention to the opinions of folk musicians about jazz either.

Who is giving A's here or anywhere? If you treat people with respect you can be constructive without being derogatory. When this was first posted I sent Graham a list of technical points to think about. It's up to him whether he wants to. But aikido is big enough and wide enough and deep enough to embrace many philosophies and approaches, not just the ones you or I think are best.

In fact maybe this discussion is just a difference in philosophy. You seem to think that there are a lot of bad aikidoka out there. Well I don't. Just aikidoka who don't understand very well yet. If they keep training sincerely they will one day. If they are not training sincerely now maybe they will one day.
Hello Nail
Before I begin, I would like to address this;
Who is giving A's here or anywhere? If you treat people with respect you can be constructive without being derogatory.
To be clear, Graham has participated in calling me a fraud, a snake oil salesman and con man. He has also told senior budoka they don't understand aikido. Can you point me to where you have corrected Graham on his comments? Where you have commented on the nature of them? I see this knee jerk defense- lacking equal treatment- by respondants over and over.

Budo
We agree on what Budo says.
We do not agree on what Budo does.
We could review the creation of a Morihei Ueshiba myth created partly in fact, part in obfuscation of fact and part made up out of whole cloth; that attempted to erase distinctly un-kami like behavior and action, then the attempts to silence all who called them on it that followed. I don't think the behavior exhibited, expressed the moral standard called for.
We could review modern actions being taken to circle the wagons, and the way they have treated their dues paying hopeful "shihans in waiting" who are being swept aside due to political affiliation. Or Koryu who still favor Japanese adepts over foreigners. Or cross the shore to review how their Chinese counter parts are openly teaching and openly keeping the real skills out of the hands of foreigners.
Anyone who thinks that budo is an open umbrella that treats everyone as an equal has not only drunk the Kool-Aid; they are crunching on the dry powder hoping for water.
This modern attempt is a rehash of an earlier Tokugawa attempt at creating an image of the warrior Bushi as refined men of letters. The pen and the Sword. It was an artifice, mostly meant as an attempt to occupy the time of bored warriors and keep them out of trouble. I have no problem with that. Yet to be clear, it was a self-correcting model; as in a time of war, not everyone received an "A." Those who could not walk the talk were simply done away with. Then, as now, there were treatises given on bushi code and the ways of the warrior that went from the practical, to romanticized versions of the warrior life, to pieces that soared to heights of utter nonsense on bushi life. Fortunately for them, there were hundreds of years of peace so we saw a gradual Edo-fying of the warrior arts.

It is no small wonder that various upstarts continued to appear (as if by some cosmic order to seek balance), to remind people of a requirement for delivery. It's also no small wonder that it continues today. These wannabe's that were treading on dangerous ice when they tried to borrow budo's reputation of competency...unearned, continue to be put to the test when they make undeserved claims of effectiveness. It has always been this way. Budo by its very nature demands competence; not just in theory, but in practice and delivery.

I don't agree with the point about videos of softer styles ruining the reputation of aikido. Serious budo-ka know that there are some great aikido-ka. Who cares what other people think.
The softer styles ruining the reputation of aikido?? I never said that…you said I said that.
I suspect we totally disagree on what soft aikido is, and what soft budo is. Soft aikido should be the most effective and damaging aikido there is. In fact Aiki-do means, by definition to be soft. From what I see and feel in person- most of you have it wrong. And the difference between me and some of the recent posters here, is that I continue to discuss these things in person; standing in rooms with your teachers unaided by my own cooperative ukes. Yet, I have had shihan after shihan who stand in front of me and later basically agree to that very thing; that they think most in the art have missed what soft really means. It happened to me again….yesterday. I see no reason to apologize for knowing and for showing that, and helping teachers correct it. In person it is building a new community, within the community that is comprised of respect, friendship and sharing.
Many videos posted here of soft aikido are simply not soft as would defined by any cultures understanding. They are a corruption. For thousands of years....soft.... killed or controlled. It had a defined meaning and actually worked.
Takeda killed and controlled and accepted challenges to his theories
Sagawa could not be touched and accepted challenges to his theories
Ueshiba could not be moved and defeated all comers and accepted challenges to his theories
Tohei could not be thrown and accepted challenges to his theories
There are many excellent examples of Chinese artists who display soft…as powerfully effective handling of real resistance.
Many of these modern attempts seek to borrow on the hard earned, painfully learned; skills of those who truly understood what "soft" actually meant and still does today. I am not surprised when I hear the objections of those who want to borrow on that reputation for what they do. They need to. For they themselves possess nothing that could ever create that reputation for themselves.
Nothing has really changed;
There are people here who deliver in every context. They are truly capable. They teach in open rooms, and like their predecessors have stress tested their theories.
The words, actions, videos, and advice of those who haven't a clue, echo in empty halls, occasionally visited by directionless souls who've lost their way. In Budo, not everyone gets an "A." Not everyone deserves one. I would only add that once we refuse critical review and the demands of effective results, we stagnate.

It should be noted that Shihan (many of whom are well known here)-including friends of Doshu-are pursuing this direction. I suspect that in time, those who had attempted to re-define what "Soft aikido" was are going to be sidelined into practicing in out of the way places among themselves or with newbies. They won't be able to deliver in front of an educated audience.
What soft actually means is being applauded and welcomed as a positive-even necessary move for the art, and is building and growing in Dojo's all over the world.

Dan

[graham christian]

Dan. To be clear I have neither called you a fraud, a snake oil salesman or a conman.

Regards.G.