PDA

View Full Version : Ki is Kindness.


Please visit our sponsor:
 

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!


graham christian
11-03-2010, 08:14 PM
When you perform a good technique you have completed something, something very special, you have just handled an opponent to a satisfactory end. That's very kind of you.

Do you ever question why the techniques are based on circles, center, alignment, harmony?

When a person in your vicinity is all flustered and panicky because they have forgotten their phone and need to make an important phone call and on seeing this you give them your phone then what effect did that act of kindness have? Relief and a return to center.

Kindness cuts through the confusion completely!

Ki is non-resistive therefore it cannot be opposed and reaches through to the being. It brings about a betterment of well being or condition thus it never harms. This is kindness in action.

Notice it is very definite as is true kindness. If a madman attacks you he is actually looking for someone to stop him just like the bully in school and so he is looking for this definite kindness.

Do not faulter and spiritually run away and revert to force but face him with with all of your spirit, reach through to his being and excercise your aikido with KI, unwavering, unperturbed yet definite and this madman will be on his backside feeling like he has smashed into an invisible wall and yet he is unharmed.

Unharmed yet thoroughly defeated.

You see every time you do a harmonious technique the opponent knows where he felt vulnerable during that technique and knows what you could have done to him if your intention had been to harm and so realizes he has lost in more ways than one.

It is no accident that the techniques are as they are for they follow the path of kindness, they follow the path of ki.

If this small dissertation benefits just one person I will be happy.

Thank you, G.

(To show you I do practice what I preach in Aikido you can see my videos on youtube under the name 'humblegee')

mathewjgano
12-02-2010, 12:02 PM
Kindness cuts through the confusion completely!

...You see every time you do a harmonious technique the opponent knows where he felt vulnerable during that technique and knows what you could have done to him if your intention had been to harm and so realizes he has lost in more ways than one.


I agree very much! I have almost always found that sincere kindness has a profound effect on people. I believe we are social animals by nature, and as such the default position of social interaction is to help and be friendly to each other, but that through the oft difficult navigation of life, we develop self-defense mechanisms which short-circuit our social interactions. Some folks pride themselves on being an Ass Hole, for example, because "Ass Holes get things done; nice guys finish last; etc." I don't view that as strength though, like many people seem to do. It just seems to be an easy way to dismiss the other for the sake of self, and in a way that causes disconnection and resentment. When someone is kind when they don't have to be, most people seem to respect it...but there has to be that obvious strength attached to it or they just think you're nice because you're weak and need to cover up for it...in my personal experiences anyway.
As usual these days I don't feel like I'm very organized in my thinking here so I'll just finish it up with this: Kindness is an approach that is underappreciated in many aspects of our modern world...and thank you for the opportunity to consider it more deeply.
Take care,
Matthew

guest1234567
12-02-2010, 01:13 PM
I agree with both of you. At the dojo our teacher sometimes must remember us when we train with a newbie that we are doing a martial art, although you must treat your uke as you will be treated, he is lending you his body to train. But in daily life I think you always win more and might come earlier to a solution in a dispute if you treat anybody with kindness.

C. David Henderson
12-02-2010, 04:47 PM
I understand what you are saying, and I think it's a very nice ambition (but see, "Are we that good?"). I also understand the underlying values reflect a prominent view in some circles, and I don't want to focus on (or dispute) that.

However, while I'm seldom sure what folks mean when they talk about "ki," the statement "ki is kindness" I find about as easy to understand as the statement "heat energy tastes good."

Do you think that budo styles which teach how to harm are devoid of "ki?"

Did Takeda train his students, including O Sensei, how to use ki?

If so, then the spiritual element of aikido to which you're alluding seems like it needs a different conceptual scaffolding.

I may, of course, be mistaken.

SeiserL
12-02-2010, 04:54 PM
IMHO, Ki is energy.

Kindness is how one may choose to express that energy.

graham christian
12-02-2010, 05:17 PM
I agree very much! I have almost always found that sincere kindness has a profound effect on people. I believe we are social animals by nature, and as such the default position of social interaction is to help and be friendly to each other, but that through the oft difficult navigation of life, we develop self-defense mechanisms which short-circuit our social interactions. Some folks pride themselves on being an Ass Hole, for example, because "Ass Holes get things done; nice guys finish last; etc." I don't view that as strength though, like many people seem to do. It just seems to be an easy way to dismiss the other for the sake of self, and in a way that causes disconnection and resentment. When someone is kind when they don't have to be, most people seem to respect it...but there has to be that obvious strength attached to it or they just think you're nice because you're weak and need to cover up for it...in my personal experiences anyway.
As usual these days I don't feel like I'm very organized in my thinking here so I'll just finish it up with this: Kindness is an approach that is underappreciated in many aspects of our modern world...and thank you for the opportunity to consider it more deeply.
Take care,
Matthew

Hi Mathew,
Your thinking seems well organized to me.To consider this concept more deeply was precisely my intention.

Thank you for your response. G.

graham christian
12-02-2010, 05:30 PM
I agree with both of you. At the dojo our teacher sometimes must remember us when we train with a newbie that we are doing a martial art, although you must treat your uke as you will be treated, he is lending you his body to train. But in daily life I think you always win more and might come earlier to a solution in a dispute if you treat anybody with kindness.

Hi Carina.
Like the lending body part as it reminds me that's precisely what my teacher used to say. In life? Likewise.

Regards. G.

graham christian
12-02-2010, 07:27 PM
I understand what you are saying, and I think it's a very nice ambition (but see, "Are we that good?"). I also understand the underlying values reflect a prominent view in some circles, and I don't want to focus on (or dispute) that.

However, while I'm seldom sure what folks mean when they talk about "ki," the statement "ki is kindness" I find about as easy to understand as the statement "heat energy tastes good."

Do you think that budo styles which teach how to harm are devoid of "ki?"

Did Takeda train his students, including O Sensei, how to use ki?

If so, then the spiritual element of aikido to which you're alluding seems like it needs a different conceptual scaffolding.

I may, of course, be mistaken.

Hi Charles.

Thanks for your response, I'll try to answer you as best I can. I just had a look at the post you mentioned so I understand what you mean there.

As to my view on budo styles which teach how to harm are devoid of Ki, well, good question.

If the sole purpose of a so called budo style is to harm and thus all techniques and movements have that as their goal then yes, I consider they are devoid of Ki. They are following a negative line of thought and negative energy which is of the mind and not the true spirit. Such is my view.

Did Takeda train his students, including O'Sensei how to use Ki? Well I have no idea on that, I don't even have an opinion on it.

As to the spiritual element to which I am alluding needing a different conceptual scaffolding? Yes, I agree and I do have one.

So I hope that answers those questions for you and understand that even that rather short, slightly curt, explanation would lead to other questions about my view.

For a taster of my view on what you have already mentioned above ie: the statement of Ki is kindness I ask you to do the following execise;

Imagine a mouse or some other animal or even a person, let's say an old lady in the street.(or anywhere for that matter)
O.K. So now imagine doing something really mean to that old lady.....

Now on doing that exercise notice what energy you feel, what energy effects you feel on your body, whether your body tightens to any degree, o.k.

Now do the exercise using the same image but this time imagine yourself doing something kind for the old lady and once again feel the energy as a result, feel the change in your spiritual space, feel the energy effects on your body and whether it tightens or relaxes.

This is what I call the first differenciation and experiencing the feeling of Ki. In fact I point out that when a person intends to harm they thus tense up and in so doing revert to force, or another way of putting it, revert to constricted Ki. They are blocking their own Ki and thus not developing it and getting used to using it and so will have extreme difficulty ever understanding what it is.

From this view you can imagine what happens when they pick up a sword to practice. Of course they tighten up and grip it too hard and have trouble doing a smooth powerful cut for even their shoulders will be too tight for the sword has this unerring ability to trigger off harmful images in the mind and fear of harming etc. etc.

Hence I tend to say things that may sound totally rediculous to some and like some kind of zen koan to others for instance when I tell my students that there are many blades you can cut with. You can cut with the blade of anger, the blade of fury, the blade of evil itself, but the must powerful and the sharpest blade of all is the blade of kindness.

Anyway, just my view, my way.
Keep living it. G

lbb
12-02-2010, 07:38 PM
Ki is gas.

Beans, beans, full of vitamin B,
The more you eat, the more you got ki.

eyrie
12-02-2010, 07:51 PM
Dr. Nefario: Here's the new weapon you ordered.
Gru: No, no, no. I said DART gun.
Dr. Nefario: Oh yes. Cause I was wondering... under what circumstances would we use this?

Tony Wagstaffe
12-03-2010, 05:00 AM
Ki is what opens my door.....:D ;)

C. David Henderson
12-03-2010, 11:32 AM
Hi Graham,

Please call me David; "Charles" is a name I don't use, but rules is rules 'round here, so ....

I think being able to "relax" and access the kinds of physical performance associated with that (including aikido techniques done in that manner) does not require an intent to be kind.

In fact, if you find a really, really bad person, who enjoys inflicting pain, you may find they are quite relaxed and even enjoying themselves -- they get their fix giving pain, the pain is flowing, and so, to them, it's all good....

Takeda was famous for both his martial prowess and other reported talents, including being able to read another person's intentions, much in the same way you'll find O Sensei credited with seeing into a man's heart who bowed to him, hoping O Sensei would respond and give an opening for an attack....

But in him, this "talent" appeared associated with extreme distrust -- the kind of attitude that would enable one to be on guard against ambush and assassination. With Ueshiba, he projected a quite different persona. (But do keep in mind his position as a bodyguard in the Mongolia expedition).

O Sensei reportedly said that Takeda opened his eyes to true budo, but that O Sensei discovered "aikido" on his own.

"Ki," and indeed "aiki" may each in my view, be used to wield either a life-giving sword or a life-taking one, albeit with different consequences for the wielder himself.

In my view, the difference may lie more in the difference between
"jutsu" and "do," not "ki" or "aiki."

And, since I'm taking this long, I'll close by remarking that due to the inaccessibility of Ueshiba's religious beliefs, making aikido a "path" is problematic. The vessel is there, but what to fill it with?

Regards

graham christian
12-03-2010, 05:55 PM
Hi Graham,

Please call me David; "Charles" is a name I don't use, but rules is rules 'round here, so ....

I think being able to "relax" and access the kinds of physical performance associated with that (including aikido techniques done in that manner) does not require an intent to be kind.

In fact, if you find a really, really bad person, who enjoys inflicting pain, you may find they are quite relaxed and even enjoying themselves -- they get their fix giving pain, the pain is flowing, and so, to them, it's all good....

Takeda was famous for both his martial prowess and other reported talents, including being able to read another person's intentions, much in the same way you'll find O Sensei credited with seeing into a man's heart who bowed to him, hoping O Sensei would respond and give an opening for an attack....

But in him, this "talent" appeared associated with extreme distrust -- the kind of attitude that would enable one to be on guard against ambush and assassination. With Ueshiba, he projected a quite different persona. (But do keep in mind his position as a bodyguard in the Mongolia expedition).

O Sensei reportedly said that Takeda opened his eyes to true budo, but that O Sensei discovered "aikido" on his own.

"Ki," and indeed "aiki" may each in my view, be used to wield either a life-giving sword or a life-taking one, albeit with different consequences for the wielder himself.

In my view, the difference may lie more in the difference between
"jutsu" and "do," not "ki" or "aiki."

And, since I'm taking this long, I'll close by remarking that due to the inaccessibility of Ueshiba's religious beliefs, making aikido a "path" is problematic. The vessel is there, but what to fill it with?

Regards

Hello again David.
Well said. The exercise I said to do gives a person a feeling of good energy and a feeling of body relaxing. The explanation I gave in the original theme shows how it works in life which shows it's power. How to apply that to Aikido is a spiritual aspect of Aikido.(just one spiritual aspect of my Aikido)

Your explanation of someone really bad who gets a fix giving pain is flowing and very relaxed is very good. True, they can flow that negative energy and to a degree be relaxed but there are two differences here. It is not as sustainable as Ki or good energy and also their body is nowhere near as relaxed in comparison, the body instead of being tight and constricted is quite hard in comparison. Their energy is a kind of mad excitement. A different effect on or through the body.

So in my view that energy is not ki for ki is pure, they are negative energies of different kinds and if I were to say define them in terms of 'all energies are made from ki' then I would differentiate and say they are negative ki or polluted ki or impure ki etc.

Now, on your explanation of Takeda and O'Sensei and the two different views, thank you, I didn't know that but on reading it it does make sense to me. It makes me see that O'Sensei was not taught true budo by Takeda but through seeing the difference between what he could do and what Takeda could do was based on two entirely different 'ways' or principles it led him to his realization on Budo.

On the point of his religious beliefs being inaccessable I'm not sure what you mean there for buddhism, taoism is there to inspect. However that would explain why my approach to Aikido seems to be back to front to some because for me the spiritual 'religious' aspects were my starting realities.

This is easily mistranslated by many as meaning I was only interested in the airy-fairy side of it but I understand that view because I used to be disappointed by the false view that I thought all others wanted was the physical aspect only. Actually I wanted the harmony of all three elements of it- Physical-Mental-Spiritual. I realized O'Senseis Aikido had all three in equal amount.

So the path, which is a major concept in those religions, implies a self developing journey.

Aiki to me is to do with harmonious motion, motions which follow the path of good energy and thus are harmonious paths, and in Aikido translate into harmonious motions.

On the other hand a 'destructive' person is learning these ways of moving through studying the geometry of the motions and practicing them and so you coul see two people, one good and one bad doing the same harmonious moves but each has different intentions. One is Being Aiki, one is Following the path made by Aiki.

Finally may I expand on this view of mine. I also say that ki can be like a rainbow or like light which breaks up into many colours. So when say Kindness is Ki then I must now say that all GOOD energies are Ki and therefore innately harmonious which brings me to the point of true budo.

From my viewpoint Budo is love and whereas I explain Kindness as being non-resistive, harmonious yet definite and relate it to the sword in Aikido, Budo I see as love and thus infinitely accepting, non-resistive, all embracing and translating in Aikido as center and expanding out to kokyu.

Sorry if it sounds too philosophical but the western response to truths given in eastern philosophies is to disregard them by calling them 'nice philosophy.' Anyway, I enjoyed the communication.
Regards .G.

C. David Henderson
12-03-2010, 09:33 PM
It makes me see that O'Sensei was not taught true budo by Takeda but through seeing the difference between what he could do and what Takeda could do was based on two entirely different 'ways' or principles it led him to his realization on Budo.


Well, Ueshiba didn't say that. He said Takeda opened his eyes to true budo, implying that it was the "real deal." As to whether one could do stuff the other couldn't -- (a) I don't know what you're referring to, really, and (b) my point was to focus on some of rather extraordinary things both men were supposed to have been able to do.

On the point of his religious beliefs being inaccessable I'm not sure what you mean there for buddhism, taoism is there to inspect.

Ueshiba reportedly had some early training in buddhism, and there are certainly "taoist" concepts that are reflected in some of what he said. But for the majority of his adult life, he adhered to an esoteric Shinto sect. Many of his prominent students acknowledged they didn't understand his lectures, because they were couched in these terms.

If you are interested in this topic, a lot has been written here and elsewhere about it.

So the path, which is a major concept in those religions, implies a self developing journey.

And, thus hence, my observation. Because he was an adherent of a different religion than these, it's "problematic" to declare that one is following his "path," especially since, to him, aikido was an expression of his religious reality, when most of us have but a vague understanding of that reality.

Aiki to me is to do with harmonious motion, motions which follow the path of good energy and thus are harmonious paths, and in Aikido translate into harmonious motions.

Harmonics -- ever seen the famous video of the suspension bridge across the Puget Sound in Washington State harmonizing with a storm? It breaks itself apart, taking some cars with it. Harmony can mean "peace," but it equally can mean destruction. To me, "good" is a separate but necessary issue.

I have to agree with Satre on this -- our freedom, and responsibility for our freedom, are inescapable. It might be nice to live in a world where the choice to cultivate personal prowesss and the choice to be "good" were one and the same.

Fact is, most folks who are really peices of work have lives that reflect that in one way or another. But in the meanwhile, I don't think it's plausible to suggest they are incapable of accessing the physical side of budo simply because their hearts are impure. I'm not even certain it raises their cholesterol.


Finally may I expand on this view of mine.

Certainly; take care of yourself.

graham christian
12-04-2010, 11:29 AM
Well, Ueshiba didn't say that. He said Takeda opened his eyes to true budo, implying that it was the "real deal." As to whether one could do stuff the other couldn't -- (a) I don't know what you're referring to, really, and (b) my point was to focus on some of rather extraordinary things both men were supposed to have been able to do.

Ueshiba reportedly had some early training in buddhism, and there are certainly "taoist" concepts that are reflected in some of what he said. But for the majority of his adult life, he adhered to an esoteric Shinto sect. Many of his prominent students acknowledged they didn't understand his lectures, because they were couched in these terms.

If you are interested in this topic, a lot has been written here and elsewhere about it.

And, thus hence, my observation. Because he was an adherent of a different religion than these, it's "problematic" to declare that one is following his "path," especially since, to him, aikido was an expression of his religious reality, when most of us have but a vague understanding of that reality.

Harmonics -- ever seen the famous video of the suspension bridge across the Puget Sound in Washington State harmonizing with a storm? It breaks itself apart, taking some cars with it. Harmony can mean "peace," but it equally can mean destruction. To me, "good" is a separate but necessary issue.

I have to agree with Satre on this -- our freedom, and responsibility for our freedom, are inescapable. It might be nice to live in a world where the choice to cultivate personal prowesss and the choice to be "good" were one and the same.

Fact is, most folks who are really peices of work have lives that reflect that in one way or another. But in the meanwhile, I don't think it's plausible to suggest they are incapable of accessing the physical side of budo simply because their hearts are impure. I'm not even certain it raises their cholesterol.

Certainly; take care of yourself.

Hi David,
Thanks for your view. Nice ending! G.

jonreading
12-10-2010, 12:19 PM
The post is certainly interesting...

I'll set my preface with this, very little of the loose "interpretations" of what O'Sensei said are actually translations. I think we all need to take with a grain of salt any doctrine that comes down defining how O'Sensei expressed his views on the world. I am also a firm believer in self-reliance and accountability, so this perspective is difficult for me to understand given the lack of support. While I believe that we should advocate that our students responsibly use their knowledge, I do not advocate a spiritual agenda in class.

Ki is non-resistive therefore it cannot be opposed and reaches through to the being. It brings about a betterment of well being or condition thus it never harms. This is kindness in action.
I would like to see more [any] supportive evidence for this statement. I don't know if I buy the claim that "ki" has a little conscious sitting on his shoulder telling him what to do. Ki is a tool, wielded by one who may express positive or negative attributes. Hammers are great tools too. A hammer can build a house, but it can also whack a finger. I think it may be reasonable to assert that those who train diligently in aikido are more prone to positive behavior, but I do not believe you can make an assertive claim like ki is kindness. And seriously, if you bring up midichlorians... :)

If a madman attacks you he is actually looking for someone to stop him just like the bully in school and so he is looking for this definite kindness.
I believe this statement is false. Madmen are, by definition, incomprehensible as defined by their action. Madmen are not comparable to school yard bullies. People are responsible for their own decisions, good and bad. Now if you are claiming a juvenile mindset reasons that acting out in behavior will yield attention (positive or negative), I'll buy that... Heck, anyone who has children can buy that. But equating a juvenile mindset to the calculating and incomprehensible mindset of a truly evil person? Not buying...

Ki's got nothing to do with kindness. A correlation? Sure. Is there an overlap between those who practice budo and express kindness? I believe so. But there is also a correlation between those who practice aikido and wear their pajamas in public. So is ki adult undergarments?

You wanna preach about kindness, knock yourself out. You want to conform your students to a social model of philosophy as part of their training, knock yourself out. But I am not sure I'd go and start making these kinds of claims without some evidence. Maybe refine them with some concrete proof? but don't say "you have to feel it"...

There used to be a time when you were accountable for your actions and responsible for their consequences, now we get to say, "well, if someone cared enough about me, I never would have done those terrible things..."
Geico Drill Sergeant (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uaFy0x_Uixo)
Some people really do need help, its a shame we have chosen to bury those troubled individuals amongst the masses of self-excuse.

Thanks for spurring interesting conversation Graham.

graham christian
12-10-2010, 05:05 PM
The post is certainly interesting...

I'll set my preface with this, very little of the loose "interpretations" of what O'Sensei said are actually translations. I think we all need to take with a grain of salt any doctrine that comes down defining how O'Sensei expressed his views on the world. I am also a firm believer in self-reliance and accountability, so this perspective is difficult for me to understand given the lack of support. While I believe that we should advocate that our students responsibly use their knowledge, I do not advocate a spiritual agenda in class.

I would like to see more [any] supportive evidence for this statement. I don't know if I buy the claim that "ki" has a little conscious sitting on his shoulder telling him what to do. Ki is a tool, wielded by one who may express positive or negative attributes. Hammers are great tools too. A hammer can build a house, but it can also whack a finger. I think it may be reasonable to assert that those who train diligently in aikido are more prone to positive behavior, but I do not believe you can make an assertive claim like ki is kindness. And seriously, if you bring up midichlorians... :)

I believe this statement is false. Madmen are, by definition, incomprehensible as defined by their action. Madmen are not comparable to school yard bullies. People are responsible for their own decisions, good and bad. Now if you are claiming a juvenile mindset reasons that acting out in behavior will yield attention (positive or negative), I'll buy that... Heck, anyone who has children can buy that. But equating a juvenile mindset to the calculating and incomprehensible mindset of a truly evil person? Not buying...

Ki's got nothing to do with kindness. A correlation? Sure. Is there an overlap between those who practice budo and express kindness? I believe so. But there is also a correlation between those who practice aikido and wear their pajamas in public. So is ki adult undergarments?

You wanna preach about kindness, knock yourself out. You want to conform your students to a social model of philosophy as part of their training, knock yourself out. But I am not sure I'd go and start making these kinds of claims without some evidence. Maybe refine them with some concrete proof? but don't say "you have to feel it"...

There used to be a time when you were accountable for your actions and responsible for their consequences, now we get to say, "well, if someone cared enough about me, I never would have done those terrible things..."
Geico Drill Sergeant (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uaFy0x_Uixo)
Some people really do need help, its a shame we have chosen to bury those troubled individuals amongst the masses of self-excuse.

Thanks for spurring interesting conversation Graham.

Hi Jon.
Good response. May I a bit more about my view.

I understand how in this day and age people will equate kindness with sympathy and poor me attitudes which is why I emphasised how true kindness is definite. If you sympathise with someone or something then you become. Then you want to defend the person or thing you sympathise with. The problem here is that the sympathiser has BECOME.

On the other hand, if you EMPATHISE then you remain stable, you can now look at the pro's and cons etc. etc. etc. The difference? You are still BEING rather than becoming.

In life there are subjects, bodies of knowledge about an area or thing. ie: Biology, cosmology, physics, politics et al.

Now in Aikido there is the subject of the body, the physical aspects of the art. Katas get the body used to those movements. Repetitive movements of all kinds done in practice is to get the body used to those movements. Physios and osteopaths can tell you all kinds of other useful things about the body and mechanics thereof.

Then there is the mind aspect of Aikido. This is the body of knowledge to do with movements and techniques. As it has concepts like ma-ai, center, circles etc. in the art then part of this data, theory, has to include geometry. Further than that, as this art has a thing called Ki as part of it then it brings energy into the equasion and thus physics comes into play in it's study. This is all the mind of the art.

By applying the theory along with the physical we discover how and why and thus understand. Thus I differenciate this way:
There is a physical center of the body, the center of balance, all things physical have a center and thus we see if you spin them they turn around their center. So there is a principle involved here.

Now what is the center of the mind? Well it is understanding. When you understand then your mind feels centered, stable. So for me a student of the art obviously has to study and see how the theory and practice work together.

Then we come to the spiritual part of the art.

In life there are people and groups of people who dedicate there lives to helping people with their physical well being. Doctors for example. Then there are people who dedicate their lives to helping people with their mental well being. Teachers, psychologists etc. Then there are people who dedicate their lives to helping others with thei spiritual well being.

This third one has so many connotations nowadays that the mere mention of the word spiritual conjures up the image of weird or mystyrious or unreal. Now my view is that the area of spiritual well being originally was religion but alas it has now in this day and age been defined as the study of god or gods. O'Sensei was very spiritual I think everyone would agree and talked about spiritual principles and how they apply to Aikido. These were not physics, they were not geometry, they were of the subject of your spirit.

The avoidance of this subject leaves aikidoka wondering what he meant, it's that simple.

There is for example a physical ma-ai, a mental ma-ai and a spiritual ma-ai and when a person understands all three then they can review what O'Sensei said about ma-ai and then understand what he meant. Otherwise they can say it's all to do with the different meanings of japanese words or that it's because he was involved in some mystical group..... Wow. That's all I can say on that.

Anyway this is how I look at it and study and practice it. Ki is of the spirit so unless a person is willing to add that viewpoint to their training they will never understand it and how it works in what they are doing. You have Ki whether you like it or not for if you didn't you would be dead.

Finally, here's an interesting thought. If a person was to show how a spiritual principle applies to a physical action would that be preaching?

Good talking to you. G.

Flintstone
12-10-2010, 05:49 PM
I missed this one. Ki is non resistive? Really? Graham, do you know anything at all about Japanese culture and its usage of the word and concept of "ki"? Or Chinese for that matter?

graham christian
12-10-2010, 06:13 PM
I missed this one. Ki is non resistive? Really? Graham, do you know anything at all about Japanese culture and its usage of the word and concept of "ki"? Or Chinese for that matter?

You sure did miss this one, obviously.

Flintstone
12-10-2010, 08:24 PM
You sure did miss this one, obviously.
No problem. I catch up fast. You don't, obviously.

C. David Henderson
12-10-2010, 08:40 PM
Graham,

How can you speak with confidence to what Ueshiba meant if you don't understand the meaning of his concepts within his own religious tradition or the cultural or linguist idioms involved? You allude to him (again), but you don't address Jon's point about the translation problem any more than you did my point about the religious transposition problem.

With due respect, it's my impression that the view you're presenting is maybe 75 to 80 percent your own. That certainly doesn't make your view right or wrong. But, in fairness, what Jon requested was support for your view, not elaboration of it.

I hope you look up the series of articles referenced in the "a bit of history" thread soon. It would be interesting to hear how your point of view survives its encounter with historical fact and context.

I know a shihan (in the sense that I've attended seminars he has taught) who was an uchideshi of O Sensei -- one of his last. He is always mindful not to be too close when he bows to the kamiza. He remarked one time it made it easier for him to remember O Sensei as a human being.

Respectfully,

graham christian
12-11-2010, 03:43 AM
Graham,

How can you speak with confidence to what Ueshiba meant if you don't understand the meaning of his concepts within his own religious tradition or the cultural or linguist idioms involved? You allude to him (again), but you don't address Jon's point about the translation problem any more than you did my point about the religious transposition problem.

With due respect, it's my impression that the view you're presenting is maybe 75 to 80 percent your own. That certainly doesn't make your view right or wrong. But, in fairness, what Jon requested was support for your view, not elaboration of it.

I hope you look up the series of articles referenced in the "a bit of history" thread soon. It would be interesting to hear how your point of view survives its encounter with historical fact and context.

I know a shihan (in the sense that I've attended seminars he has taught) who was an uchideshi of O Sensei -- one of his last. He is always mindful not to be too close when he bows to the kamiza. He remarked one time it made it easier for him to remember O Sensei as a human being.

Respectfully,

Hi David.
I do know the concepts of his own religious tradition thank you so I speak with confidence. If I go to study spiritual healing, the laying on of hands by some indian mystic and he shows me how he does it and tells me it's based on prana energy then I understand what he means, I don't need to know his cultural history and language variances thank you.

Most things O'Sensei said make sense to me so I tend to speak confidently on the subject.

There is no translation problem there is only an unacceptance of what he said being true.

When he said true budo is love it is the unacceptance of that which leads people to scurry around finding reasons for him meaning something else. When he says Aikido is absolute nonviolence, that you do not oppose the attacker, that he who attacks has already spiritually lost completely, he means just that.

The fact that many can't get their heads around it shows me that they need to improve their spiritual awareness for they won't find the understanding in linguistics.

There are many people with lots of data. Data, data data. To me they are walking libraries, computers, robots. Don't get me wrong I like robots and computers but I could give you all the data and history and meanings and variances according to traditions and climate to do with trying to get you to understand the taste of a strawberry but until you've eaten one you will never know.

I would even go so far as to say that many, including all those great intellectuals, do not know clearly the meanings of words in their own language, love being a prime example. An old zen saying about 'your cup is full' is precisely about this.

So let me offer my own piece of zen, modern day. Once I knew how to read and write, I had understood how the sounds were represented by letters and how it all came together and then resulted in an ability called reading and writing, I then threw all of that data away for I could now DO it. I now KNEW it. To me it was now SIMPLE. The same goes for tying up my shoelaces.

When you know, can demonstrate (do) and all in an easy manner then you know you know. You don't go around intellectualizing about it. Data is useful and needed on the way to understanding but does not show intelligence, only the apparency of intelligence.

Respectfully yours. G.

C. David Henderson
12-11-2010, 10:16 AM
This conversation reminds me of a dinner party I attended around 15 years ago in a little village south of here called La Cienega. A very friendly woman sincerely offered to read fortunes using "Native American Tarot" cards.

I certainly can suspend my skepticism and enjoy having my fortune read, but there simply is no such thing as "Native American Tarot cards" other than something invented to appeal to vague notions of Indian spirituality that percolates through a lot of the new ager venues around here.

I had no problem with that either.

I did feel it wasn't right to pass it off as a part of another people's traditions, though -- it should stand or fall on its own feet, not by a faux appeal to someone else's supposed beliefs.

(I think that showed, as I got a pretty unfortunate interpretation of my fortune that night.)

I'm certain your understanding of Ueshiba is a lot more accurate than this woman's understanding of Native American cultures.

But at one level, your lack of curiosity or interest in what O Sensei may have meant from his own cultural milieu strikes me as similar, if only in that it makes it difficult for me to accept your assertions that your own beliefs are based on what he "said," or that there is no "translation problem," followed by an English rendering of what he "said."

Again, that doesn't make you wrong in your beliefs about the world itself.

However, if you present it as based on another persons' ideas and thoughts, rather than your own beliefs, it invites discussion.

I don't think the correctness of someone's belief system can rationally be debated.

But appeals to authority that sometimes arise can, and, in my view, such debates do not reflect an easy division of the world into folks who are alienated by their own rationality versus those in touch with a deeper reality.

BTW, take a look at the "Kung fu for Philosophers" link in one of the current threads here. I think its suggestive of ways in which some of these concepts are often "mistranslated."

Meanwhile, I'm bowing out of this discussion. I need to go sit before class.

jonreading
12-12-2010, 09:49 PM
In elaborating on your original point, I think you are still missing some elements of evidential support to support your claims. It sounds like you dismiss the need for evidential support, citing instead the need to (ahhhh) "feel it":
There are many people with lots of data. Data, data data. To me they are walking libraries, computers, robots. Don't get me wrong I like robots and computers but I could give you all the data and history and meanings and variances according to traditions and climate to do with trying to get you to understand the taste of a strawberry but until you've eaten one you will never know.

But the point is you can confirm strawberries taste sweet; the point of contention would be how sweet and what flavor of sweetness. For the sake of your argument, I am willing to concede that ki exists as an energy form. However, I think you do not built a case sufficient to explain how ki can possess a trait (kindness). Kindness is a emotive state of being. You do not explain how ki, conditional upon accepting it possesses a emotive state, can possess a singular emotion (positive in connotation). This is (I think) what some of the other posters are hinting at... Your interpretation of ki is somewhat different than most and asserted without any supporting evidence. Which is fine, but your posts imply you derived your comments from some factual base that you are withholding from this thread.

Secondly, O'Sensei simply did not say many things attributed to him. In these paraphrases, most often his comments were translated to English, then interpreted in their meaning; sometimes both being performed by the same person. I would expect that in interpreting O'Sensei's teachings, you should at least provide the paraphrase or quote used in your interpretation. Again, your posts imply that you have confirmed factual quotations and historical information from OSensei that support your position but you are withholding this information as well.

Your beliefs are your own. But I think if you choose to share them as part of a discussion you would like to share how you arrived at your educated decisions.

If a person was to show how a spiritual principle applies to a physical action would that be preaching?
Preaching is the presentation of [religious] doctrine, a sermon. This is a tongue and cheek comment to raise caution about presenting an idea for discussion to a group of like-minded individuals who will not questions the statements validity (as in "preaching to the choir" to describe the preacher speaking to the only regular members in church...the choir). If you choose to present and idea as fact beyond your group of like-minded individuals, you should darn well be able to back up that comment.

Good luck.

mathewjgano
12-12-2010, 11:43 PM
What if we view ki as having a naturally positive nature which gets twisted into something negative? My meager lessons in Jinja Shinto would seem to support this view. "Genki" (source ki, yes?) implies positivity and health, despite the fact that we can describe states of ki that are unhealthy or otherwise negative also. So while we might say some person is byouki, it's only because the original nature of the ki has been twisted, and returning to health would be returning to a genki state (the original state of ki?). Just a quick thought I had anyway.
Take care, all!

Peter Goldsbury
12-13-2010, 01:10 AM
What if we view ki as having a naturally positive nature which gets twisted into something negative? My meager lessons in Jinja Shinto would seem to support this view. "Genki" (source ki, yes?) implies positivity and health, despite the fact that we can describe states of ki that are unhealthy or otherwise negative also. So while we might say some person is byouki, it's only because the original nature of the ki has been twisted, and returning to health would be returning to a genki state (the original state of ki?). Just a quick thought I had anyway.
Take care, all!

Hello Matthew,

You can do this, however, only if you have already previously defined KI in some way. What you are doing is defining KI by looking at the way in which the Chinese characters of a Japanese word are combined and then using this to define the meaning of the Japanese word. You may start out by thinking of KI as a 'naturally positive' nature (whatever this means), but you should then be able to give a similar analysis with all the other 270-odd compounds of the character occurring in modern Japanese. Your analysis seems initially plausible with genki and byouki, but less plausible with terms like 気密 kimitsu (air-tight), where KI is clearly air.

I am stating this, not as a longtime practitioner of aikido, but as a student of the Japanese language.

Best wishes,

PAG

Flintstone
12-13-2010, 03:49 AM
What ki is not is "kindness". As a Japanese student myself.

guest1234567
12-13-2010, 03:55 AM
What ki is not is "kindness". As a Japanese student myself.

Alejandro all human beeings are different, so everybody has his own thoughts, for your ki might not be kindness but I think you can accept that some of us not agree with you. This ki was treated in a spiritual way

Demetrio Cereijo
12-13-2010, 07:53 AM
Alejandro all human beeings are different, so everybody has his own thoughts, for your ki might not be kindness but I think you can accept that some of us not agree with you. This ki was treated in a spiritual way

When we're "spiritual mode on" anything goes. For instance, you can enhance the ki of your Kimono leaving it all nigh into the Kitchen. Next day you'lll have the power of Kimura plus the elegance of Kisshomaru. This has been revealed to me by a Kikuyu medicine-man at the top of the Kilimanjaro.

thisisnotreal
12-13-2010, 08:10 AM
all human beeings are different, so everybody has his own thoughts

...and some thoughts are true and some thoughts are false.

guest1234567
12-13-2010, 08:33 AM
When we're "spiritual mode on" anything goes. For instance, you can enhance the ki of your Kimono leaving it all nigh into the Kitchen. Next day you'lll have the power of Kimura plus the elegance of Kisshomaru. This has been revealed to me by a Kikuyu medicine-man at the top of the Kilimanjaro.
Very smart and "ki minded":)

guest1234567
12-13-2010, 08:34 AM
...and some thoughts are true and some thoughts are false.
And who is so wise to know what is true and what is false?

thisisnotreal
12-13-2010, 08:42 AM
And who is so wise to know what is true and what is false?

We would be wise to make it our job to find out. Don't you think?

Facts and knowledge exist. Not everything is subjective.

guest1234567
12-13-2010, 08:45 AM
No, I don't think I am so wise. Maybe you could tell me..

Demetrio Cereijo
12-13-2010, 08:47 AM
And who is so wise to know what is true and what is false?
Yours truly.

Keith Larman
12-13-2010, 09:07 AM
Red is banana.

No, that's not what I meant. Oh, yeah...

All bananas are atheists.

No...

Electricity is kindness?

Hmmmm... Something is wrong here...

What was the old example... A guy is watching a cricket match for the first time after having the game simply explained to him. He sees the bowler, the batsman, the fielders. But then this newcomer asks if someone could point out the player who is the team spirit. Because all teams have bowlers, batsmen, fielders and team spirit.

My latest thought has been that the understanding of "ki" for most in Aikido is what is called a category error. Or maybe better an instance of reification.

Justice is blind. Therefore we should only trust blind judges...

C. David Henderson
12-13-2010, 10:17 AM
If you treat your banana ki-ndly, it won't turn red (unless you're an atheist).

mathewjgano
12-13-2010, 12:02 PM
I am stating this, not as a longtime practitioner of aikido, but as a student of the Japanese language.

Best wishes,

PAG

Thank you, Prof. Goldsbury! I was really hoping you would comment on my questions. Does the above mean to imply that your studies of Aikido might differ somewhat from your linguistic studies?
Also, if sometimes we can look at the roots of a compound to understand it's meaning, but not always, how can we tell when it's appropriate to do so? I'm fairly confident I have heard genki described as something akin to "the fundemental nature of ki," in the teachings of Tsubaki Okami Yashiro; assuming I am remembering correctly and not missing some nuance, doesn't this lend some authority to the idea...at least in terms of an authentic spiritual point of view?
Thank you for your time, Sensei!
Take care,
Matthew

lbb
12-13-2010, 12:11 PM
"They write books that contradict the rocks, then say that I wrote the books and the rocks are lies."

- The Supreme Being

Flintstone
12-13-2010, 12:14 PM
Alejandro all human beeings are different, so everybody has his own thoughts, for your ki might not be kindness but I think you can accept that some of us not agree with you. This ki was treated in a spiritual way
Oh, Carina, please. It is NOT what it IS for me or for you. It IS what it IS. And then you wonder...

Flintstone
12-13-2010, 12:16 PM
And who is so wise to know what is true and what is false?
What IS your experience in 日本語 anyway? Or in Japanese culture? How many times and for how long have you been living in Japan? No need to answer.

jonreading
12-13-2010, 12:43 PM
Alejandro all human beeings are different, so everybody has his own thoughts, for your ki might not be kindness but I think you can accept that some of us not agree with you. This ki was treated in a spiritual way

I think this is some of my point. The post did not say "my ki is kindess." The post asserted that ki is kindness; yours, mine, Graham's.

I think there is merit to what Graham says, but I am not sure if he expands his assertion beyond his own belief he can substantiate his claim to others. Its one to say "I think blue is the best color." It's another thing to say, "blue is the best color." It's yet another thing to say "blue is the best color", but you actually mean yellow, not blue. When we present a claim for discussion, we have an obligation to present the claim in such a manner as to withstand argument, then reflect upon that discussion to improve our presentation next time.

Likewise, isn't that how we train with others? to learn our suki so we may better present ourselves next time?

dps
12-13-2010, 12:51 PM
Ki is not kindness, giving me chocolate pudding to eat is kindness.

dps

graham christian
12-13-2010, 01:31 PM
In elaborating on your original point, I think you are still missing some elements of evidential support to support your claims. It sounds like you dismiss the need for evidential support, citing instead the need to (ahhhh) "feel it":

But the point is you can confirm strawberries taste sweet; the point of contention would be how sweet and what flavor of sweetness. For the sake of your argument, I am willing to concede that ki exists as an energy form. However, I think you do not built a case sufficient to explain how ki can possess a trait (kindness). Kindness is a emotive state of being. You do not explain how ki, conditional upon accepting it possesses a emotive state, can possess a singular emotion (positive in connotation). This is (I think) what some of the other posters are hinting at... Your interpretation of ki is somewhat different than most and asserted without any supporting evidence. Which is fine, but your posts imply you derived your comments from some factual base that you are withholding from this thread.

Secondly, O'Sensei simply did not say many things attributed to him. In these paraphrases, most often his comments were translated to English, then interpreted in their meaning; sometimes both being performed by the same person. I would expect that in interpreting O'Sensei's teachings, you should at least provide the paraphrase or quote used in your interpretation. Again, your posts imply that you have confirmed factual quotations and historical information from OSensei that support your position but you are withholding this information as well.

Your beliefs are your own. But I think if you choose to share them as part of a discussion you would like to share how you arrived at your educated decisions.

Preaching is the presentation of [religious] doctrine, a sermon. This is a tongue and cheek comment to raise caution about presenting an idea for discussion to a group of like-minded individuals who will not questions the statements validity (as in "preaching to the choir" to describe the preacher speaking to the only regular members in church...the choir). If you choose to present and idea as fact beyond your group of like-minded individuals, you should darn well be able to back up that comment.

Good luck.

Hello Jon.
I am, I must admit, getting used to this 'presenting an argument' point of view and the giving of evidential support based on what someone else said in the past. However I have pointed out an interview given by O'Sensei in which he answers very specific questions and gives very specific answers.

Now people who say that there could be mistranslation or misinterpretation on that interview due to the language I find that quite absurd.

Firstly, there may be a chance on certain words being misunderstood but in that interview he answers many things which I hear people still debating today.

Secondly, a translator would almost certainly have a good understanding of not only the language and it's nuances but also of the context of the sentence and so would invariably get it right.

Thirdly, surely it's more logical to first accept it as it is stated, then practice and apply it in other words test it to see if it is true or valid or useful.

As to me assetrting without too much evidential support well I am probably more guilty of that than not.

I tend to write with the sword so to speak. I tend to write as I teach. I am used to saying a way of doing something or saying what something is based on and then letting people try it from that viewpoint and compare it to what they are used to, to inspect it for themselves.

My posts may imply I have some secret confirmed evidence of what O'Sensei said or that I have something I'm not sharing, well I do but the funny thing is it's not a secret.

I have done everything some people accused me of not doing. For example, I used to train four times a week, super physically and probably harder than most of those who talk about sweat and hardness. I say that with confidence because I have been there in fact I had to train hard until I was exhausted and had no physical energy left and then to be told now we learn about ki, now your lesson begins.

I learned physical movements and techniques. I learned Aikido Motions as different to technique, ie: tenkan, tai-sabake, irimi. I learned then from the view of energy and space ie: circles, spirals, sphere, lines, spirals, gravity (weight underside), center, center line, blending, leading, meeting etc. How this all fits together and how to apply it.

O.K. Now we come to what I feel it is that gives this impression of me knowing what O'Sensei meant or said.

I obviously went through many phases of understanding but I always would go back to looking at how O'Sensei did it compared to others that followed. I would go back and look at what he meant by love and kindness and harmony and no enemies etc.etc. etc. Do you want to know how I found my answers?

When I started looking from spiritual views and how they fitted in with physical and mental and energy and motion and conflict and life and started understanding then what O'Sensei meant.

Therefore I put it to you (oh dear, this is starting to look like an intellectual argument) that my mention of spiritual puts some people off and that my evidence is my experience and my ability and so I can only teach what I know and say what I know but I never say it'sahhhh feel.

Here's a thought for you. In all of my posts no one ever asked me a question from the viewpoint that I knew more than them or equally as much as them. They either put down what I said or challenged it for the most part which believe it or not I was surprised by. I have stated I have spiritual construct, principles which can be practiced but no one asked what they are. I have stated that there is a spiritual side, a mental side and a physical side to all techniques and principles in Aikido but I work from the view that when someone asks specifically on one aspect of Aikido and how that applies to that one thing then they are not ready for any more explanation.

This is either arrogant, stupid or wise on my part, but so be it.

So I would prefer if someone said I tried nikkyo today and looked at what purpose I was doing it from and then I tried doing it from the purpose of being kind, a DEFINITE kindness. I would be interested in the result. No debate, no argument, just test and result. I would have to write a book to explain in detail and unfortunately this is only a forum.

Thanks anyway, it's all good. G.

guest1234567
12-13-2010, 01:51 PM
What IS your experience in 日本語 anyway? Or in Japanese culture? How many times and for how long have you been living in Japan? No need to answer.
How many times and for how long have you been living in Japan?

lbb
12-13-2010, 01:55 PM
I obviously went through many phases of understanding but I always would go back to looking at how O'Sensei did it compared to others that followed. I would go back and look at what he meant by love and kindness and harmony and no enemies etc.etc. etc. Do you want to know how I found my answers?

Not really. What I want to know is how you looked at how O Sensei did it. You weren't looking at O Sensei actually doing it, up close and in person, so what were you looking at, exactly? And on what basis did you conclude that you therefore knew how O Sensei did it?

(although this is probably a pointless question, given your assertion about the infallibility of translation...but what the hey)

guest1234567
12-13-2010, 02:05 PM
Oh, Carina, please. It is NOT what it IS for me or for you. It IS what it IS. And then you wonder...
Perhaps here you can learn something http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13276

mathewjgano
12-13-2010, 02:09 PM
Ki is not kindness, giving me chocolate pudding to eat is kindness.

dps

And how healthy is that!? That could be interpreted as killing you with kindness couldn' it? :p Albeit, very slowly and pleasantly!:D

C. David Henderson
12-13-2010, 02:17 PM
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13276

"Good movement" in the sense of "pleasant feeling movement" is not, to me the same as "morally good." What's the connection for you?

Flintstone
12-13-2010, 02:17 PM
How many times and for how long have you been living in Japan?
Couple of times only, two weeks and two months. Studied Japanese language four years though and currently hold a 三級 in the 日本語能力試験 since some six years ago (or so). They say that getting a 二級 in the 能験 is pretty hard and I ran (unfortunately) out of time to prepare for it.

Not that two point five months or a sankyu is a great mileage, but enough to know that 気 does NOT mean "kindness".

Still waiting for your answer. What's your milieu to walk your talk?

Flintstone
12-13-2010, 02:20 PM
Perhaps here you can learn something http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13276
Sorry to inform you that you are Mrs. Nobody to try to teach me no nothing. You still don't know about me or my (lack of) knowledge on the matter so how dare you. Not that it does matter to the discussion. Won't argue with nonsensical arguments anymore.

guest1234567
12-13-2010, 02:21 PM
"Good movement" in the sense of "pleasant feeling movement" is not, to me the same as "morally good." What's the connection for you?
I were quoting to the whole threat not just to good movement or pleasant feeling movement

Flintstone
12-13-2010, 02:22 PM
I were quoting to the whole threat not just to good movement or pleasant feeling movement
So how does that thread support your argument then? Or were you just trying to preach?

guest1234567
12-13-2010, 02:24 PM
Sorry to inform you that you are Mrs. Nobody to try to teach me no nothing. You still don't know about me or my (lack of) knowledge on the matter so how dare you. Not that it does matter to the discussion. Won't argue with nonsensical arguments anymore.

Sorry to inform you that I'm not trying to teach you anything. You still don't know about me . And by the way how much time did you live in Japan?

Flintstone
12-13-2010, 02:28 PM
Sorry to inform you that I'm not trying to teach you anything. You still don't know about me . And by the way how much time did you live in Japan?
You failed at reading classes?

guest1234567
12-13-2010, 02:30 PM
So how does that thread support your argument then? Or were you just trying to preach?

From http://www.aikiweb.com/language/ki_phrases.html.

In essence, the character ki means:

* spirit, mind, soul, heart
* intention
* bent, interest
* mood, feeling
* temper, disposition, nature
* care, attention
* air, atmosphere
* flavor
* odor
* energy, essence, air, indications
* symptoms
* taste
* touch, dash, shade, trace
* spark, flash
* suspicion

Here are some contexts in which the word "ki" and some of its derivations are used in everyday Japanese.

Japanese Phrase Kanji Literal Translation Definition
Gen ki "source/foundation of ki." one's health
Byou ki "ill ki." to be sick
Ten ki "heavenly ki." the weather
Ki ga tatsu "the ki stands upright." to get angry
Ki wo tsukeru "to put on (or to have) ki" to be careful; to be attentive
Ki ga kiku "the ki is used a lot" to be empathetic
Ki ga susumanai "the ki does not go forward." to not want to do something
Ki ga sumu "the ki is finished or used up." to feel fulfilled
Ki ga tsuku "to have "ki" put onto you." to notice
Ki ga tsuyoi "the ki is strong." to be headstrong
Ki ga yowai "the ki is weak." to be like a coward
Ki ga tooku naru "the ki goes far away." to become lightheaded
Ki ga nai "to have no ki" to have no interest in something
Ki ga nukeru "the ki becomes missing." to lose hope
Ki ga mijikai "the ki is short." to be short tempered
Ki ni sawaru "something touches the ki." to find something irritating
Ki ni naru "to become ki" to have something nagging or on one's mind
Ki wo kubaru "to pass out ki (to people)" to attend to other people's wishes"

And I would add,O'sensei wanted us to practice in an atmosphere of joy then your Aikido could be funki.

This is from the quoted threat. So have you enough definitions of ki?

jonreading
12-13-2010, 02:34 PM
Therefore I put it to you (oh dear, this is starting to look like an intellectual argument) that my mention of spiritual puts some people off and that my evidence is my experience and my ability and so I can only teach what I know and say what I know but I never say it'sahhhh feel.

Not me. Lets keep the focus on the post you made. If you have a spiritual component of your argument I do not oppose that component. I only oppose the "you don't know me" excuse to explaining how you arrived at your conclusion. What interview with O'Sensei are you citing? Where is the transcript? Or was the interview interpreted? If so, by whom? How did you derive your statement from the context of the interview? What Shihan support this viewpoint? Is your viewpoint a progeny of your own deduction, or were they any contributions from others? These are all great questions to which I would like to see the answer. You are explaining a point and I am all for the ride but you're not bringing me along... This stuff is all elementary to an educational thesis, I'm trying to get learned here after all. Check out those members on this forum who have solid writing. Hell, Dr. Goldsbury writes half his posts in Japanese (I can't even figure out how to insert the dang symbols). You wanna play with the big boys, you gotta come with something... Every river begins as a trickle in the mud, right? I got some popcorn for a good read if it takes you a while.

Here's a thought for you. In all of my posts no one ever asked me a question from the viewpoint that I knew more than them or equally as much as them. They either put down what I said or challenged it for the most part which believe it or not I was surprised by. I have stated I have spiritual construct, principles which can be practiced but no one asked what they are. I have stated that there is a spiritual side, a mental side and a physical side to all techniques and principles in Aikido but I work from the view that when someone asks specifically on one aspect of Aikido and how that applies to that one thing then they are not ready for any more explanation.

Correct. You are not a just-add-water aikido expert just because your post something. To ask others to submit to your ethos without credentials is preposterous. Some of the cats on this forum are so long in the tooth they're practically ice-age. You're gonna cram down their throats some jibber jabber, then contest they are not giving your props? My hands get sweaty when some of these lifers read my posts... Then you gonna tell them they're not ready to hear your message? Wow. You want these cats to respect your thinking? Prove to them its legit.

I may not agree with your comments, but if its solid I can respect your argument. "Source citing is important..." According to Wikipedia Abraham Lincoln said this after defeating the Klingons at Gettysburg to end the Revolutionary War.

C. David Henderson
12-13-2010, 02:37 PM
How does the thread as a whole support your view?

guest1234567
12-13-2010, 02:41 PM
You failed at reading classes?

Sorry I'didn't see your answer in the 2 page.
Did you see that

From http://www.aikiweb.com/language/ki_phrases.html.

In essence, the character ki means:
spirit, mind, soul, heart
* intention
* bent, interest
* mood, feeling
* temper, disposition, nature
* care, attention

So it also can mean kindness..

graham christian
12-13-2010, 02:54 PM
How does the thread as a whole support your view?

Overall I think it's part supportive and part suspicious.

Regards. G.

C. David Henderson
12-13-2010, 02:57 PM
So then, if "ki" in general, is "kindness," then

* spirit, mind, soul, heart
is Kind.

* intention
is Kind.

* bent, interest
is Kind

* mood, feeling
is Kind

* temper, disposition, nature
is Kind

* care, attention
is Kind

* air, atmosphere
is Kind

* flavor
is Kind

* odor
is Kind

* energy, essence, air, indications
is Kind

* symptoms
is Kind

* taste
is Kind

* touch, dash, shade, trace
is Kind

* spark, flash
is Kind

And,

* suspicion
is Kind?

Flintstone
12-13-2010, 03:03 PM
Sorry I'didn't see your answer in the 2 page.
Did you see that

From http://www.aikiweb.com/language/ki_phrases.html.

In essence, the character ki means:
spirit, mind, soul, heart
* intention
* bent, interest
* mood, feeling
* temper, disposition, nature
* care, attention

So it also can mean kindness..

I saw the page. So... what? 気 still does NOT mean "kindness". Plus I'm still waiting to know your mileage to say that.


―meanings―
spirit
mind
―on-yomi―


―kun-yomi―
いき

気 【き】 (n) spirit, mood, (P)
気 【げ】 (suf) (uk) seeming, giving the appearance of, giving one the feeling of.

Listen, Carina. I don't know what you (don't) know about Japanese, but a kanji represents a concept. It is an ideogram. When you put more than one kanji together you (sometimes) alter its meaning.

気 means "spirit, mind, air, steam..." 病気 means "illness, disease, sickness..." 元気 means "health(y), robust, vigor, vigour, energy, vitality, vim, stamina, spirit, courage..." (and Asami, and Motoki, but I digress.) So according to this 気, 病気 and 元気, what's the meaning of 気? Spirit/mind or illness/disease or healthy/robust? And... how does it come to mean "kindness" for God's sake?

Confundes la parte por el todo.

guest1234567
12-13-2010, 03:06 PM
I saw the page. So... what? 気 still does NOT mean "kindness". Plus I'm still waiting to know your mileage to say that.

Confundes la parte por el todo.
Ki wo kubaru "to pass out ki (to people)" to attend to other people's wishes"

Flintstone
12-13-2010, 03:11 PM
Ki wo kubaru "to pass out ki (to people)" to attend to other people's wishes"
気を配る is NOT 気. It's a made expresin, not a word, not an ideogram, not a kanji, not a hanzi. Your train of thought is the same as saying that "<today> means <fog> because I can say <today it's foggy>" Weird.

lbb
12-13-2010, 03:11 PM
Sorry I'didn't see your answer in the 2 page.
Did you see that

From http://www.aikiweb.com/language/ki_phrases.html.

In essence, the character ki means:
spirit, mind, soul, heart
* intention
* bent, interest
* mood, feeling
* temper, disposition, nature
* care, attention

So it also can mean kindness..

Carina, honestly, I think that's a bit of a stretch. I really do. The function of words is to communicate. That doesn't mean that they must have a singular meaning (most words probably have more than one meaning, or at least different shades of meaning), or that they must always be unambiguous. But when we twist a word around and try to make it fit any situation we want, just because we like something about the word and its associations (or what we believe its associations to be), it becomes so distorted that it's no longer useful for communication. You stretched the above list of definitions to get "ki" to mean "kindness"; with no more of a stretch, I can get it to mean "anger". Is this useful?

To use a similar example: the word "zen" refers to a school of Buddhism and its practices. Admittedly a large house, it is nevertheless a specific spiritual tradition -- that's what the word "zen" means. In the United States, however, the word is commonly misused in popular culture as a general catchphrase for many different things that have nothing at all to do with this tradition. The label "zen" is variously used to mean simplicity in design, or intense concentration, or tranquility, or a way to decorate your house, or anything vaguely Oriental. Everything from hair salons to marketing companies describe their product as "Zen" or "Zen-like". It has this aura of cool, of mysticism and esotericism, of knowing more than you do and (because of said mysticism and esotericism) being forever absolved from having to actually explain what you know. If you claim the "zen" label, you can forever deflect calls for explanation with a pitying smile: poor unenlightened mortal bound to the wheel, still chained to your need for explanations. Give up the need for explanations! Some things you can only feel.

Substitute the word "zen" with the word "ki" in the paragraph above, and honestly, I think that's the direction you're heading. I don't think it's a direction that leads to understanding, only more muddying of the waters.

C. David Henderson
12-13-2010, 03:14 PM
The problem isn't that "ki" could sometimes be said to operate in a manner that is "kind. The thesis is not, "I can act with ki and still be kind."

Rather that ki, by its nature, is kindness. (So that a budo focused on harm does not, in Graham's view, utilize "ki.")

Finding an example among the many that do NOT fit merely proves the opposing point of view -- a person may act kindly in using "ki," but also may act in other ways.

By presenting a list of alternative meanings, you preclude the thesis of the OP, I believe.

guest1234567
12-13-2010, 03:19 PM
To Alejandro and Mary, I sure do not know as much about japanese kanjis as you two. Graham began the threat ki is kindness, I agree with him and for me something like to attend to other people's wishes is kindness, that ki has other meanings also, of course..
But it is also kindness, it is just my opinion and I understand that you and many other people have other opinions, I respect that. Please why do you not respect my opinion,
thanks

Demetrio Cereijo
12-13-2010, 03:38 PM
Because is an opinion that doesn't deserve respect.

lbb
12-13-2010, 03:41 PM
But it is also kindness, it is just my opinion and I understand that you and many other people have other opinions, I respect that. Please why do you not respect my opinion,
thanks

Well, perhaps because -- as I just explained -- I don't think that the meaning of words is purely a matter of opinion. If you decided that the word "banana" also meant "airplane", and I begged to differ, would you say that I was not "respect[ing] your opinion"? And, to return to my earlier post, why the need to twist one word when you have another that fits? If you act with kindness, why the need to say that you're acting with ki?

guest1234567
12-13-2010, 03:42 PM
Because is an opinion that doesn't deserve respect.
I also respect your opinion Demetrio. What we are doing here is also Aikido, although I doubt Alejandro and you will understand that:)

mathewjgano
12-13-2010, 03:42 PM
how does it come to mean "kindness" for God's sake?

I took it to be a looser application of meaning rather than some literal translation...along the lines of, say, "teaching is kindness." Obviously the two terms mean different things, but that doesn't mean they can't overlap in some particular context. There are times where teaching is in fact an example of kindness, and there are time where it is not.

guest1234567
12-13-2010, 03:43 PM
Well, perhaps because -- as I just explained -- I don't think that the meaning of words is purely a matter of opinion. If you decided that the word "banana" also meant "airplane", and I begged to differ, would you say that I was not "respect[ing] your opinion"? And, to return to my earlier post, why the need to twist one word when you have another that fits? If you act with kindness, why the need to say that you're acting with ki?
Yes Mary why??? because that is what the threat is about:)

guest1234567
12-13-2010, 03:45 PM
I took it to be a looser application of meaning rather than some literal translation...along the lines of, say, "teaching is kindness." Obviously the two terms mean different things, but that doesn't mean they can't overlap in some particular context. There are times where teaching is in fact an example of kindness, and there are time where it is not.
For me also teaching if I think of my teacher is great kindness and of course also ki:)

C. David Henderson
12-13-2010, 03:53 PM
I took it to be a looser application of meaning rather than some literal translation...along the lines of, say, "teaching is kindness." Obviously the two terms mean different things, but that doesn't mean they can't overlap in some particular context. There are times where teaching is in fact an example of kindness, and there are time where it is not.

Hi Matt,

I agree with you. My reservation is with the magical thinking of the OP that if I act with ki, my acts will ipso facto be kind acts. Which I see as a variety of bad faith.

guest1234567
12-13-2010, 03:53 PM
Because is an opinion that doesn't deserve respect.

And Demetrio all opinions do deserve respect, I'm sorry to read this, that tells me more of you than every answer you gave me since we met in aikiforum , really very sorry

graham christian
12-13-2010, 03:56 PM
Not me. Lets keep the focus on the post you made. If you have a spiritual component of your argument I do not oppose that component. I only oppose the "you don't know me" excuse to explaining how you arrived at your conclusion. What interview with O'Sensei are you citing? Where is the transcript? Or was the interview interpreted? If so, by whom? How did you derive your statement from the context of the interview? What Shihan support this viewpoint? Is your viewpoint a progeny of your own deduction, or were they any contributions from others? These are all great questions to which I would like to see the answer. You are explaining a point and I am all for the ride but you're not bringing me along... This stuff is all elementary to an educational thesis, I'm trying to get learned here after all. Check out those members on this forum who have solid writing. Hell, Dr. Goldsbury writes half his posts in Japanese (I can't even figure out how to insert the dang symbols). You wanna play with the big boys, you gotta come with something... Every river begins as a trickle in the mud, right? I got some popcorn for a good read if it takes you a while.

Correct. You are not a just-add-water aikido expert just because your post something. To ask others to submit to your ethos without credentials is preposterous. Some of the cats on this forum are so long in the tooth they're practically ice-age. You're gonna cram down their throats some jibber jabber, then contest they are not giving your props? My hands get sweaty when some of these lifers read my posts... Then you gonna tell them they're not ready to hear your message? Wow. You want these cats to respect your thinking? Prove to them its legit.

I may not agree with your comments, but if its solid I can respect your argument. "Source citing is important..." According to Wikipedia Abraham Lincoln said this after defeating the Klingons at Gettysburg to end the Revolutionary War.

Hey Jon,
Got your popcorn?

You oppose the you don't know me excuse??? I never say that.

As I said, I've cited the source for the interview already, if you want to look it up type in O'Sensei interview on google and find the one he had with his son. (aikido faq)

What Shihan supports this view? It's not for me to say, why should I do your work for you. This is my view and if you don't want to test it for yourself and need correlation and back up then find some shihans who agree and find some who disagree and have fun.

Do I expect others to submit to my ethos without credentials???

Wow! Excuse me for smiling. I told you already I give views for people to contemplate and test for themselves and if they do this they can then acknowledge what I say, add to what I say, tell me what they discovered, tell me they see how it applies to life but enquire how it applies to Aikido, whatever. But only after they have tested it for themselves. No references, no translations, no he saids.

If this doesn't fit in with your way of doing things then so be it. It's neither right nor wrong but it's not the only way.

Your comments about playing with the big boys???

Your comments about cramming jibber jabber down the throats of ' cats who are long in the tooth' ???

Double wow! ( Now where I come from that there is fighting talks)

Big boys don't argue, they contemplate, test, debate. There are no put downs at at worst they agree to differ. Real big boys may even read something, smile and say nothing. Exceptional big boys may fully understand what the person is saying and add something that takes it even further, thus taking the writers understanding even further.

Anyway, I still love you. G.

C. David Henderson
12-13-2010, 04:39 PM
Big boys don't argue, they ... debate.

Sigh.

Flintstone
12-13-2010, 04:42 PM
But it is also kindness, it is just my opinion and I understand that you and many other people have other opinions, I respect that. Please why do you not respect my opinion,
thanks
Japanese is not about your opinions. Japanese language is about the usage Japanese people give it.

Just because my opinion is that the Earth is flat... well, you know how it goes.

You opinion does not deserve respect.

Flintstone
12-13-2010, 04:45 PM
I also respect your opinion Demetrio. What we are doing here is also Aikido, although I doubt Alejandro and you will understand that:)
I'm not using aiki while sitting in front of my computer. Paraphrasing one very well respected master, aiki is not something you cannot do to a keyboard. You broaden the term aikido in the same manner you twist the meaning of ki. Not funny.

mathewjgano
12-13-2010, 04:47 PM
My reservation is with the magical thinking of the OP that if I act with ki, my acts will ipso facto be kind acts. Which I see as a variety of bad faith.
I definately disagree with the statement, "if I act with ki I always act with kindness." I think it's fair to say there is bad ki and good ki...assuming ki can even have a fixed definition. I guess what I think I'm seeing is a work in progress with regard to defining ki, basing it on something similar to my sense of ki as I learned it from Tsubaki America and thus Tsubaki Okami Yashiro in Japan...this idea of returning to the "source ki," which is pure (for lack of a better term perhaps) and, i presume, "good" (whatever that might be). If I'm not mistaken, Misogi has been explained to me in a similar light, in which over time, our otherwise good nature accumulates tsumi/impurity which we seek to return to its original, better state.
I'm not sure I understand the topic very well, but based on my limited understanding, this is what I've come up with.

Flintstone
12-13-2010, 04:47 PM
And Demetrio all opinions do deserve respect
No. They do not. That's what Zapatero thinks. That's is motto. This is the result.

Demetrio Cereijo
12-13-2010, 04:53 PM
And Demetrio all opinions do deserve respect,
No way.

I respect your right to have and express your opinions even when those opinions only deserve contempt, like in this case.

I'm sorry to read this, that tells me more of you than every answer you gave me since we met in aikiforum , really very sorry

Want a kleenex?

What we are doing here is also Aikido, although I doubt Alejandro and you will understand that

No, we aren't doing aikido here.

Ed. Alex, let's not go into politics, this is an aikido forum (remember Dr. Strangelove war room scene?) ;)

Flintstone
12-13-2010, 04:57 PM
Matthew, as my understanding goes, 気 is neither good or bad and both of them. 気 is the spirit behind something, it's heart, its soul, its energy, and surely it can be kind, but then it can be evil. It depends on the use you give to it.

But saying 気 is "kindness" you're stating an absolute. And neither the language nor the concept functions that way.

And Carina is basing the language (and the kanji) in mere opinions based on... based on what, Carina? We still don't know your mileage in the language or the culture. Perhaps if you belonged to some mysterious and unknown sect that defined 気 as "kindness", you opinion would have some base. But mere opinion? You really must be joking. But I guess not.

Flintstone
12-13-2010, 05:02 PM
I respect your right to have and express your opinions even when those opinions only deserve contempt, like in this case.
Please make her note that "I respect you right to have and express your opinions" does not equal "I respect your opinions". It's not the same and I'm sure she's not getting it.

No, we aren't doing aikido here.
At least not me. I'm not even creating a ground path from my fingertips. Go figure!

Ed. Alex, let's not go into politics, this is an aikido forum (remember Dr. Strangelove war room scene?) ;)
No fighting in the war room! But remember, some could opine Aikido means politics...

Peter Goldsbury
12-13-2010, 05:08 PM
Thank you, Prof. Goldsbury! I was really hoping you would comment on my questions. Does the above mean to imply that your studies of Aikido might differ somewhat from your linguistic studies?

Thank you for your time, Sensei!
Take care,
Matthew

Hello Matthew,

Thank you for your response.

I have just got up and looked at this thread. I am surprised to see that it has grown by two pages. I do not have time now for an extended response to your questions, but I will give a response later.

In answer to your question that I quoted, my studies of Japanese and my aikido training have always been different, even though my training has always been in Japanese, since I have always had Japanese teachers. Of course, in the UK and the US, they spoke English, but the vast bulk of my training has been here, in Japan, and I use English in aikido only when I am explaining something to a visitor who does not speak Japanese.

However, all the time I have been here, I have been part of a large Japanese academic community, completely unconnected to aikido, in which the medium of general communication has largely been Japanese. This has been a kind of total immersion, but a different kind of immersion to the experience of someone who lives as an uchi-deshi.

Thus, in this thread, which is concerned with the meaning of a Japanese term, I prefer to speak on the basis of my knowledge of the Japanese language. In any case, when I need to give explanations in aikido, I rarely use the term KI and if you glance at the quoted thread, my opinion is similar to that of Robert John (Upyu).

Best wishes,

PAG

guest1234567
12-13-2010, 05:10 PM
No mileage Alejandro and no kleenex Demetrio.
If you don't even understand that sitting in front of a computer you can also do aikido in a spiritual way, I give up you never will understand me. Just take care both of you.

graham christian
12-13-2010, 05:13 PM
From http://www.aikiweb.com/language/ki_phrases.html.

In essence, the character ki means:

* spirit, mind, soul, heart
* intention
* bent, interest
* mood, feeling
* temper, disposition, nature
* care, attention
* air, atmosphere
* flavor
* odor
* energy, essence, air, indications
* symptoms
* taste
* touch, dash, shade, trace
* spark, flash
* suspicion

Here are some contexts in which the word "ki" and some of its derivations are used in everyday Japanese.

Japanese Phrase Kanji Literal Translation Definition
Gen ki "source/foundation of ki." one's health
Byou ki "ill ki." to be sick
Ten ki "heavenly ki." the weather
Ki ga tatsu "the ki stands upright." to get angry
Ki wo tsukeru "to put on (or to have) ki" to be careful; to be attentive
Ki ga kiku "the ki is used a lot" to be empathetic
Ki ga susumanai "the ki does not go forward." to not want to do something
Ki ga sumu "the ki is finished or used up." to feel fulfilled
Ki ga tsuku "to have "ki" put onto you." to notice
Ki ga tsuyoi "the ki is strong." to be headstrong
Ki ga yowai "the ki is weak." to be like a coward
Ki ga tooku naru "the ki goes far away." to become lightheaded
Ki ga nai "to have no ki" to have no interest in something
Ki ga nukeru "the ki becomes missing." to lose hope
Ki ga mijikai "the ki is short." to be short tempered
Ki ni sawaru "something touches the ki." to find something irritating
Ki ni naru "to become ki" to have something nagging or on one's mind
Ki wo kubaru "to pass out ki (to people)" to attend to other people's wishes"

And I would add,O'sensei wanted us to practice in an atmosphere of joy then your Aikido could be funki.

This is from the quoted threat. So have you enough definitions of ki?

Hi Carina,
Hope you don't mind me coming back to this point.

I like your view. For all those arguing about words and meanings may I say this; With all words there is a BASIC concept. One which leads to all the future variations. I don't see all these intellectual attackers giving a basic concept or meaning for Ki.

One person who decided to take responsibility for this aspect of Aikido was Tohei Sensei. He defined it, gave a rendition of it's use and origins as a word et al. His interview was in english so theres no excuse for those who say yeah but language......

This can be found in Aikijournal-interview with Koichi Tohei (4).

He said it means spirit of the universe. I think this works quite well with your examples of words encompassing the word ki, in fact there are hundreds of them.

Ki is thus spirit according to it's basic concept. Therefore that which comes from, is innate to spirit is Ki.

Kindness is of the spirit and thus ki is kindness. In fact all energies of spirit are Ki so love is also ki, compassion also.

Studying the effect of kindness, an example I gave at the beginning of this thread, showed me the power of kindness rather than just the meaning of the word. Studying the effect of love and what it does a person can learn that it is all embrasive, welcoming, all inclusive, supportive, wow! Thats powerrful isn't it?

Now applying this to Aikido leads to new views and recognitions of what O'Sensei meant. For example love is all embrasive, wecoming, all inclusive, supportive, so what principle did that lead me to in Aikido? Well firstly it helped me with the act of blending with the opponent but then led to a principle of 'be with'

Many talk about connection, I have put this in the form of a principle calle be with. This improved my Aikido tenfold. Suddenly I knew what O'Sensei meant by there is no opponent and similar statements. Thus I say as a golden rule of my Aikido that there is no against in Aikido.

When techniques are not working or I'm stuck I recognise I'M not being with and have gone into opposition and thus separated and gone against and caused my own problem.

Just thought I'd tell you my view, validate your view, and expand on the topic of the thread.

Enjoy.G.

Flintstone
12-13-2010, 05:14 PM
No mileage Alejandro and no kleenex Demetrio.
Then not only language is not based on your opinions, but your opinions in the matter are worth next to nothing.

If you don't even understand that sitting in front of a computer you can also do aikido in a spiritual way, I give up you never will understand me. Just take care both of you.
And sitting in front of a computer I can also do volleyball. Of course.

Flintstone
12-13-2010, 05:16 PM
Kindness is of the spirit and thus ki is kindness. In fact all energies of spirit are Ki so love is also ki, compassion also.
And then so is hate. Or you want to take only half of the conclusion? Take it all or don't take it at all.

guest1234567
12-13-2010, 05:19 PM
Hi Carina,
Hope you don't mind me coming back to this point.

I like your view. For all those arguing about words and meanings may I say this; With all words there is a BASIC concept. One which leads to all the future variations. I don't see all these intellectual attackers giving a basic concept or meaning for Ki.

One person who decided to take responsibility for this aspect of Aikido was Tohei Sensei. He defined it, gave a rendition of it's use and origins as a word et al. His interview was in english so theres no excuse for those who say yeah but language......

This can be found in Aikijournal-interview with Koichi Tohei (4).

He said it means spirit of the universe. I think this works quite well with your examples of words encompassing the word ki, in fact there are hundreds of them.

Ki is thus spirit according to it's basic concept. Therefore that which comes from, is innate to spirit is Ki.

Kindness is of the spirit and thus ki is kindness. In fact all energies of spirit are Ki so love is also ki, compassion also.

Studying the effect of kindness, an example I gave at the beginning of this thread, showed me the power of kindness rather than just the meaning of the word. Studying the effect of love and what it does a person can learn that it is all embrasive, welcoming, all inclusive, supportive, wow! Thats powerrful isn't it?

Now applying this to Aikido leads to new views and recognitions of what O'Sensei meant. For example love is all embrasive, wecoming, all inclusive, supportive, so what principle did that lead me to in Aikido? Well firstly it helped me with the act of blending with the opponent but then led to a principle of 'be with'

Many talk about connection, I have put this in the form of a principle calle be with. This improved my Aikido tenfold. Suddenly I knew what O'Sensei meant by there is no opponent and similar statements. Thus I say as a golden rule of my Aikido that there is no against in Aikido.

When techniques are not working or I'm stuck I recognise I'M not being with and have gone into opposition and thus separated and gone against and caused my own problem.

Just thought I'd tell you my view, validate your view, and expand on the topic of the thread.

Enjoy.G.

Thanks Graham.
I understand also that the attackers don't understand, it is very difficult and it takes a lot of sensitiveness that they don't have therefore they cannot understand. I feel a bit of pity for them

Flintstone
12-13-2010, 05:25 PM
Thanks Graham.
I understand also that the attackers don't understand, it is very difficult and it takes a lot of sensitiveness that they don't have therefore they cannot understand. I feel a bit of pity for them
Yes, we are aikitrolls and you are an enlightened one. Please, you must forgive these poor mortals, oh you Ueshiba's Avatar.

Listen, we don't have sensitivity but we don't smoke that thing or eat those mushrooms of yours.

Did I get a ban for this? Pleeeeeeeeease.

C. David Henderson
12-13-2010, 05:26 PM
Alejandro,

I think you're on target with this observation. Er, that is, the one about taking it all or leaving it alone.

Demetrio Cereijo
12-13-2010, 05:30 PM
Please make her note that "I respect you right to have and express your opinions" does not equal "I respect your opinions". It's not the same and I'm sure she's not getting it.
She is getting it.

At least not me. I'm not even creating a ground path from my fingertips. Go figure!
Cable y piqueta, no falla. :)

No fighting in the war room! But remember, some could opine Aikido means politics...
Aikido is a martial art .Martial = related to Mars, god of war. War = continuation of politics by other means (as per Clausewitz). Aikido = Politics ;)

graham christian
12-13-2010, 06:04 PM
And then so is hate. Or you want to take only half of the conclusion? Take it all or don't take it at all.

That's your conclusion or observation, that's fine, but it's not me with half a conclusion.

I have a more complete view you may or may not agree with.

All energies of spirit are good, thus it includes kindness, love ,compassion, etc. which leads to things like help, validation, granting of beingness, acknowledgement, acceptance, clear perception, understanding etc.

On the other hand negative energies are thus not of the spirit. They are of the mind. Negative feelings which actually come from past failures or upsets or losses or traumas etc.

You can BE loving and kind. You can only BECOME angry or hateful.

For me kindness is also a matter of honour and acceptance,( a quality of love) is a matter of integrity and leads to a better understanding.

Respectfully.G.

Demetrio Cereijo
12-13-2010, 06:17 PM
All energies of spirit are good, thus it includes kindness, love ,compassion, etc. which leads to things like help, validation, granting of beingness, acknowledgement, acceptance, clear perception, understanding etc.

On the other hand negative energies are thus not of the spirit. They are of the mind. Negative feelings which actually come from past failures or upsets or losses or traumas etc.

Really?

Flintstone
12-13-2010, 06:41 PM
That's your conclusion or observation, that's fine, but it's not me with half a conclusion.

I have a more complete view you may or may not agree with.
Passive aggressive. Your view is oh so more complete than mine. But I'm having a dj vu.

All energies of spirit are good, thus it includes kindness, love ,compassion, etc. which leads to things like help, validation, granting of beingness, acknowledgement, acceptance, clear perception, understanding etc.

On the other hand negative energies are thus not of the spirit. They are of the mind. Negative feelings which actually come from past failures or upsets or losses or traumas etc.

You can BE loving and kind. You can only BECOME angry or hateful.
What about this:

All energies of spirit are evil, thus it includes hate, aversion to beauty, egotism, etc. which leads to things like refusal, denial, unacceptance, blurred perception, misunderstanding etc.

On the other hand positive energies are thus not of the spirit. They are of the mind. Positive feelings which actually come from past successes etc.

You can BE angry or hateful. You can only BECOME loving and kind.

graham christian
12-13-2010, 07:07 PM
Passive aggressive. Your view is oh so more complete than mine. But I'm having a dj vu.

What about this:

All energies of spirit are evil, thus it includes hate, aversion to beauty, egotism, etc. which leads to things like refusal, denial, unacceptance, blurred perception, misunderstanding etc.

On the other hand positive energies are thus not of the spirit. They are of the mind. Positive feelings which actually come from past successes etc.

You can BE angry or hateful. You can only BECOME loving and kind.

Nice. Bouncy. Enthusiastic.

C. David Henderson
12-13-2010, 07:51 PM
Condescending; passive aggressive. But intended kindly, I'm sure.

C. David Henderson
12-13-2010, 08:24 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_the_infinite_cornucopia

The Law of the Infinite Cornucopia, put forth by Polish philosopher Leszek Kołakowski suggests that for any given doctrine one wants to believe, there is never a shortage of arguments by which one can support it.

Or ... these discussions tend not to end well.

lbb
12-13-2010, 08:44 PM
Yes Mary why??? because that is what the threat is about:)

The threat, or the thread? And why are you asking me my own question, which was asking YOU why you felt the need to conflate two different terms?

lbb
12-13-2010, 09:00 PM
And Demetrio all opinions do deserve respect

Well, yes -- if they really are opinions; that is, they are a personal perspective on a matter that has no factual basis for determining the truth. It is my opinion that chocolate is the very best kind of cake; if your opinion is that the very best kind of cake is vanilla, your opinion is equally valid and worthy of respect as mine.

If, however, you make a statement about something that has a basis in fact, you can't call it an "opinion" and thus shield it from scrutiny and challenge. If I say that 2+2=5, and when challenged, then claim that this is my opinion and deserves respect, I'm just appropriating and misusing the term "opinion". The same is true of the definitions of words, as I explained in an earlier comment. While the meanings of words aren't as unambiguous as simple arithmetic, they're also not infinitely variable, and particularly not variable on the user's whim. I can't simply use the word "banana" to mean "wineglass", and then when challenged make some tenuous connection that bananas are curved and so are wineglasses, and both contain something that nourishes, and therefore "banana" can mean "wineglass", and then call it an "opinion" and say it's worthy of respect. Language is flexible, but it doesn't work that way.

When I use a word, Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, it means just what I choose it to mean, neither more nor less.

Janet Rosen
12-13-2010, 11:13 PM
Well said, Mary.

Keith Larman
12-14-2010, 12:32 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H38LiqJdzvI

guest1234567
12-14-2010, 03:39 AM
The threat, or the thread? And why are you asking me my own question, which was asking YOU why you felt the need to conflate two different terms?

Sorry for not knowing the english language so well as you, yes it was the thread, may I can answer in spanish, it is the hilo:)

guest1234567
12-14-2010, 03:41 AM
Well, yes -- if they really are opinions; that is, they are a personal perspective on a matter that has no factual basis for determining the truth. It is my opinion that chocolate is the very best kind of cake; if your opinion is that the very best kind of cake is vanilla, your opinion is equally valid and worthy of respect as mine.

If, however, you make a statement about something that has a basis in fact, you can't call it an "opinion" and thus shield it from scrutiny and challenge. If I say that 2+2=5, and when challenged, then claim that this is my opinion and deserves respect, I'm just appropriating and misusing the term "opinion". The same is true of the definitions of words, as I explained in an earlier comment. While the meanings of words aren't as unambiguous as simple arithmetic, they're also not infinitely variable, and particularly not variable on the user's whim. I can't simply use the word "banana" to mean "wineglass", and then when challenged make some tenuous connection that bananas are curved and so are wineglasses, and both contain something that nourishes, and therefore "banana" can mean "wineglass", and then call it an "opinion" and say it's worthy of respect. Language is flexible, but it doesn't work that way.

When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone,' it means just what I choose it to mean, neither more nor less.'

Of course it is my personal perspective on the matter , I don't think I said anything else, did I?

Flintstone
12-14-2010, 03:50 AM
Of course it is my personal perspective on the matter , I don't think I said anything else, did I?
There's no room for personal perspectives on the matter, Carina. Specially you being a gaijin and not knowing the language. Is that really so hard to understand?

guest1234567
12-14-2010, 03:58 AM
There's no room for personal perspectives on the matter, Carina. Specially you being a gaijin and not knowing the language. Is that really so hard to understand?

Sorry for not agreeing with you scholar of the japanese language:D

Demetrio Cereijo
12-14-2010, 04:23 AM
From now on is my personal opinion the german word "erbse" means "horse" (in english) and "mesa" (in spanish) because all of them have a dodecahedric shape and usually come in brilliant purplepink colour.

Flintstone
12-14-2010, 06:24 AM
Sorry for not agreeing with you scholar of the japanese language:D
You are only showing your uttermost ignorance and disrespect for the truth. It speaks tons about yourself. I feel so sorry about you. I'm so sad now I will take that kleenex. Thanks.

Peter Goldsbury
12-14-2010, 06:57 AM
Hello Matthew,

Here are a few comments on the rest of your earlier post (#38). Be prepared for a long post.

Also, if sometimes we can look at the roots of a compound to understand it's meaning, but not always, how can we tell when it's appropriate to do so?

PAG. Consider the word Hiroshima. This is written in Japanese in four different ways: 廣島, 広島, ひろしま, and ヒロシマ. All four are used in modern Japanese. I think people would agree that the word designates the city in Japan on which the atomic bomb was dropped in 1945. However, the sense, the meaning, is different. 広 hiro means 'wide' and 島 shima means 'island'. However, there is little point in looking at the roots of the compound in order to understand what this word means. When people think of Hiroshima, they think about a particular city, not about wide islands.

With other words, which are not proper names, there is rarely a need to understand the meaning of a compound by looking at the roots, unless you want to speculate about how the Chinese or Japanese originally composed the word, or unless you hear the word, out of context, and want to know what the components actually are. Thus, kikaki 気化器 means 'carburetor' and it will not make any difference to the meaning of the word to know the meaning of each of the constituents, though it might be interesting to consider how the word was actually created. Equally, 起原, 期限, and 機嫌 are all read as kigen, but 気 is not a constituent.

I'm fairly confident I have heard genki described as something akin to "the fundamental nature of ki," in the teachings of Tsubaki Okami Yashiro; assuming I am remembering correctly and not missing some nuance, doesn't this lend some authority to the idea...at least in terms of an authentic spiritual point of view?

PAG. I do not believe that KI has a fundamental nature, or has one basic concept. Here are a number of definitions, all taken from the Kojien 広辞苑, which is the Japanese equivalent of the OED. There are five core definitions. I give first (a) the Japanese, then (b) the reading, (c) a very rough translation, and finally (d) a few compounds or expressions.

1 (a) 天地間を満たした、宇宙を構成する基本と考えるもの。また、その動き。
(b) Tenchikan wo mitashita, uchu wo kosei suru kihon to kangaeru mono. Mata, sono ugoki.
(c) Something thought to be fundamental, which constitutes the earth / universe and which completely occupies the space between heaven and earth. The movement of this fundamental element.
(d) 気象, kisho: weather; 気候, kiko: climate; 天気, tenki: weather

2 (a) 生命の原動力となる勢い。活力の源。
(b) Seimei no gendoryoku to naru ikioi. Katsuryoku no minamoto.
(c) The force that is the prime mover of life. The source of vitality/vigor.
(d) 気勢, kisei: ardor; 精気, seiki: vitality; 元気, genki: vigor, health

3 (a) 心の動き・状態・働きを包括的に表す語。ただし、この語が用いられる個々の文脈において、心のどの面に重点を置くかは様々である。
(b) Kokoro no ugoki, jotai, hataraki wo hokatsuteki ni arawasu go. Tadashi, kono go ga mochiirareru koko no bunmyaku ni oite, kokoro no dono men ni juten wo oku no ka wa samazama de aru.
(c) Utterance(s) that inclusively/comprehensively express(es) the movement, circumstances and working of the heart/mind. However, according to the various contexts in which the utterance(s) is/are used, there are various ways of emphasizing particular aspects of the heart/mind.
(d) 気を回す, ki wo mawasu; suspect, give play to the imagination, make suspicious conjectures
気が向く, ki ga muku: in the mood (for doing something)
気が狂う, ki ga muruu: go mad; take leave of one's senses
心気, shinki: mood
気を利かす, ki wo kikasu: have one's wits about one
気負い立つ, kioi tatsu: nerve oneself for a struggle

4 (a) はっきりとは見えなくても、その場を包み、その場に漂うと感ぜられるもの。
(b) Hakkiri to wa mienakute mo, sono ba wo tsutsumi, sono ba ni to kanzeraru mono.
(c) Even though it cannot be seen, something that envelops a particular place or is felt to be in that place.
(d) 気体, kitai: gas; 気圧, kiatsu: atmospheric pressure; 鬼気, kiki: eerie;霊気, reiki: mysterious atmosphere; 雰囲気, fun'iki: ambience, atmosphere.

5 その物事来の性質を形作るような要素。特有の香や味。
Sono monogoto rai no seishitsu wo katachizukuruyona yoso. Tokuyu no kaori ya aji.
The ingredient that gives form to the particular character for a thing. Characteristic smell or taste.
気の抜いたビール, ki no nuita biiru: beer that has lost its taste.

What is ‘an authentic spiritual point of view'? One that is ‘really' spiritual, or a view, whether ‘spiritual' or not, that someone is entitled to have? I cannot really accept that the notion [that genki is akin to the fundamental nature of KI] is itself spiritual. Of course, someone can well include this notion as part of a general spiritual view, but this is to add something extra, in my opinion, as Shinto might well do. The closest the Kojien comes to any notion of spiritual is in (3), with the mention of 心 kokoro, which has a wide range of meanings.

Best wishes,

PAG

lbb
12-14-2010, 07:18 AM
Of course it is my personal perspective on the matter , I don't think I said anything else, did I?

You didn't, but my point is that it doesn't make any sense to have a "personal perspective" on whether 2+2=5. As the saying goes, "You have the right to your own opinion; you don't have the right to your own facts." I can't say that "banana" means "wineglass" and claim that this is valid because it is my "personal perspective". I don't get to have my own meaning for words, or they're not words any more, they're just meaningless syllables that can't perform the first function of a word: to communicate.

Peter Goldsbury
12-14-2010, 07:52 AM
4 (a) はっきりとは見えなくても、その場を包み、その場に漂うと感ぜられるもの。
(b) Hakkiri to wa mienakute mo, sono ba wo tsutsumi, sono ba ni to kanzeraru mono.
(c) Even though it cannot be seen, something that envelops a particular place or is felt to be in that place.
(d) 気体, kitai: gas; 気圧, kiatsu: atmospheric pressure; 鬼気, kiki: eerie;霊気, reiki: mysterious atmosphere; 雰囲気, fun'iki: ambience, atmosphere.

Best wishes,

PAG

EDIT:
(b) Hakkiri to wa mienakute mo, sono ba wo tsutsumi, sono ba ni tadayou to kanzeraru mono.
(c) Even though it cannot be seen, something that envelops a particular place or is felt to move about in that place.

Mary Eastland
12-14-2010, 08:16 AM
Thank you, Peter....That was very interesting to me.
Mary

C. David Henderson
12-14-2010, 10:01 AM
Aside from the meanings of the word ki (thank you very much, and hello, Peter), there remains disagreement about using that word in the sentence "ki is kindness," not as a semantic proposition, but one about the world.

Here, the statement is asserted to reflect (a participatory) reality to a believer, but a self-induced illusion to non-believers.

I think Jon stated it very well, from my perspective, when he talked about the decision to bring from a self-contained training environment and to a wider and experienced audience propositions about the world "discovered" in the mutual interactions of that training setting.

For aikido to articulate with the real world as budo, its effect cannot depend on mutual agreement between training partners.

Equally, for me at least, if my aikido is is to have any "spiritual element" in it (in the sense that Chiba has written about, in particular), it cannot depend solely on the apparent insights to be gained in an environment where we already assume certain principles to be true and discuss them in agreed-upon terms.

This I believe to be true of phenomenological appearances (e.g., since the nice people I train with block themselves when they are not relaxed, and since they relax when they intend no harm, ergo ki is kindness), and also the conceptual framework employed to describe and understand phenomena ("ki is kindness" even when I had a real-world encounter with a particular threat -- with a "t"-- because I was effective and I meant no harm.) .

And the conceptual expression of lessons-believed-learned is where, to me, critical thought does play a role similar to the role pressure testing plays in practice.

As for opinions, I would add that everyone has a right to reconsider, reexamine, and even reject their previous held ones. However, this is where Wittgenstein's views on religion comes to mind, which is why I am confident our apparent differences will remain unresolved.

Everyone take care; my apologies to any whom I may have offended.

George S. Ledyard
12-14-2010, 12:20 PM
Carina Reinhardt wrote: View Post
And Demetrio all opinions do deserve respect

Just as an aside...
No, I do not think that all opinions do deserve respect. The people who hold the opinions deserve respect. When someone throws out an opinion, it's just like posting something on the internet... once it's out there it's "open season".

People have all sorts of "opinions" and they certainly aren't of equal value. Opinions, as one can clearly see on the forums, can be unfounded, poorly articulated, unsustainable rationally, etc. Those opinions are not worthy of respect no matter how well intentioned the person having those opinions might be.

Out of respect for that person, one might attempt to be polite about how one might disabuse said person of his delusional ideas. Peter G is an exemplar of this approach. He is never rude or disrespectful of the person even when he is totally destroying some idiotic opinion.

It's just like our discussions of Aikido on a technical level. Everyone wants to think his or her effort is enough, wishes to be validated for whatever level of effort they can put forth. Everyone wants to feel like his opinion is worth something. But it's really just like ones Aikido... if you want to be "validated" for your Aikido, make your Aikido better. If you want your opinions to be worthy of respect, they need to be well thought out, well articulated, at least semi-rational and sustainable.

Strength in numbers doesn't really help either. Whereas having a number of other folks agree with ones unfounded suppositions may give one a sense of community, it doesn't make the opinion expressed any better. The "fifty million Elvis fans can't be wrong" approach is off base. Sure they can be wrong, just look at how we Americans are putting the Right back in power after eight years of getting hosed by the same folks.

On the forums, I expect to see civilized discourse. I realize that our entire culture has gradually been conditioned to look at everything from the standpoint of conflict, everything must be sensationalized and preferably involve screaming at one another... but thankfully, Jun attempts to keep a lid on that.

Too often these discussions devolve quite quickly into personal diatribe. Rather like the old Saturday Night Live "Jane you ignorant slut!" and "Dan you Fascist Pig!". I think that is pretty much wrong headed and it doesn't evince any real understanding of Budo or Aikido on the part of the folks on either side.

Anyway, in terms of the original supposition that Ki has something to do with "kindness", well, just look at this thread. Everyone one here on the forum has "Ki". If they didn't they would be dead. Not everyone on the forum is "kind", therefore, ipso facto, there is no essential connection between "ki" and "kindness". So, an unsustainable opinion, not terribly worthy of respect, but delivered by quite respectable people, who have every right to be respected. I think that one can see the opportunity for the personal practice of "non-attachment" in the Buddhist sense.

jonreading
12-14-2010, 12:42 PM
The closest the Kojien comes to any notion of spiritual is in (3), with the mention of 心 kokoro, which has a wide range of meanings.

I see in some of the older stuff the use of kokoro and I was not familiar with that term. The phrase later came up in "Budo Training in Aikido." It seems to be used as a general term that describes the unification of mind (intention) and body. Oddly enough, it seems the translation chooses to use this term in addition to spirituality (implying maybe some separation between ki as "intent of the mind" and a spiritual connotation?). I enjoyed hearing more about that concept though; thank you Dr. Goldsbury.

mathewjgano
12-14-2010, 02:27 PM
Thank you very much, Prof. Goldsbury, that was very informative!
You said #3 seemed to be the most spiritually inclined definition, but as I was reading #1 it seemed to fit the description too, at least, per my (again, probably fairly weak) understanding of natural religions. Is it supposing some fundemental particle (similar to what the "atom" was theorized to be before we learned it too had parts and just kept the name for convenience) or energy which is in essence, everything?
I definately chose my words poorly when I spoke of "authentic spiritual point[s] of view." I meant to suggest that the usage I described ("source" ki and the de facto kindness which might generally come from it) might be relevant to O Sensei's spirituality as well as what I saw of Graham's sense of it, insofaras O Sensei seemed to also look to Jinja Shinto (not just Omotokyo) as an authority on at least some spiritual matters...again, assuming my understanding isn't too muddled (just muddled enough I hope).
Thanks to everyone for some great food for thought!
Take care,
Matthew
p.s. for any Ice T fans out there: somehow genki has generated a parody of "OG" that keeps running through my head. "O Ki, original Ki-ster!" Of course I am an original keister, so it works on so many wonderful levels.:D
...eh...it's probably a good thing I can amuse myself so easily...right? :crazy: :D

C. David Henderson
12-14-2010, 04:08 PM
Yes, my friend -- a very useful talent, that...

guest1234567
12-14-2010, 04:48 PM
I just wanted to tell everybody that I feel sorry that in a thread like that supposed to be of kindness, people are getting so aggressive, I include myself when I replayed to the attacks. When I said that ki is kindness I were replying to the content of the thread not the title. I like to apologize if I offended anybody, this is an aikido forum so we might discuss things like adults.
take care all of you

graham christian
12-14-2010, 10:08 PM
Just as an aside...
No, I do not think that all opinions do deserve respect. The people who hold the opinions deserve respect. When someone throws out an opinion, it's just like posting something on the internet... once it's out there it's "open season".

People have all sorts of "opinions" and they certainly aren't of equal value. Opinions, as one can clearly see on the forums, can be unfounded, poorly articulated, unsustainable rationally, etc. Those opinions are not worthy of respect no matter how well intentioned the person having those opinions might be.

Out of respect for that person, one might attempt to be polite about how one might disabuse said person of his delusional ideas. Peter G is an exemplar of this approach. He is never rude or disrespectful of the person even when he is totally destroying some idiotic opinion.

It's just like our discussions of Aikido on a technical level. Everyone wants to think his or her effort is enough, wishes to be validated for whatever level of effort they can put forth. Everyone wants to feel like his opinion is worth something. But it's really just like ones Aikido... if you want to be "validated" for your Aikido, make your Aikido better. If you want your opinions to be worthy of respect, they need to be well thought out, well articulated, at least semi-rational and sustainable.

Strength in numbers doesn't really help either. Whereas having a number of other folks agree with ones unfounded suppositions may give one a sense of community, it doesn't make the opinion expressed any better. The "fifty million Elvis fans can't be wrong" approach is off base. Sure they can be wrong, just look at how we Americans are putting the Right back in power after eight years of getting hosed by the same folks.

On the forums, I expect to see civilized discourse. I realize that our entire culture has gradually been conditioned to look at everything from the standpoint of conflict, everything must be sensationalized and preferably involve screaming at one another... but thankfully, Jun attempts to keep a lid on that.

Too often these discussions devolve quite quickly into personal diatribe. Rather like the old Saturday Night Live "Jane you ignorant slut!" and "Dan you Fascist Pig!". I think that is pretty much wrong headed and it doesn't evince any real understanding of Budo or Aikido on the part of the folks on either side.

Anyway, in terms of the original supposition that Ki has something to do with "kindness", well, just look at this thread. Everyone one here on the forum has "Ki". If they didn't they would be dead. Not everyone on the forum is "kind", therefore, ipso facto, there is no essential connection between "ki" and "kindness". So, an unsustainable opinion, not terribly worthy of respect, but delivered by quite respectable people, who have every right to be respected. I think that one can see the opportunity for the personal practice of "non-attachment" in the Buddhist sense.

Hi George,
May I offer a couple of examples here of answers I have given in this thread and apply them to what you have said here. Firstly on the point of going to the meanings of the japanese before it was translated, which assumes the translator may be wrong. ie: O'Sensei using the word love.

I put it to those debating the issue that the fault more often than not lies with their not understanding the english and has nothing to do with anything else. I've seen this phenomena so many times through helping people who need help with study and they go all complicated and complex and agitated and angry so I take them back to where they started having this 'effect' and invariably find ONE point they didn't understand but thought they did.

This brings me to your view on respect and reminds me of a principle given in shin-shin toitsu Aikido 'Respect your partners Ki'
Every aikidoka who has been aware of this principle and then told me they were respecting their partners Ki but he was resisting or whatever other excuse they used showed me only that they didn't understand either repect, partner or Ki. So I wonder what meaning you have for the word respect?

Here's an example: Respect, regard, two words of similar meaning.Both are to do with consideration for someone or something of recognized worth. So far so good.

Here's the difference:1) Regard implies recognition of worth, with the element of approval or disapproval.
2)Respect implies recognition and esteem of worth with or without liking.

So one could take anyones views or opinions and estimate, judge, consider, debate, qestion with respect. However, as soon as one shows dissapproval or approval for that matter this is no longer respect.

Therefore one can say I respect your opinion but I don't hold in in high regard or I don't regard it as pertinent etc. Thus all opinions deserve respect with or without liking, wether you like it , I like it, the whole world likes it or not. On the other hand it doesn't mean anyone has to agree or disagree with the opinion, it's to be evaluated, considered and then put into context at which point regard enters into it.

One follows the other and then there can posibly be harmony. One replacing the other and there can only be misunderstandings and argument.

These statements given by Aikido Masters in my opinion should be respected rather than disregarded and laughed at. Tohei also said as a principle of Aikido: Relax completely. How many people know what that means or rather THINK they know what that means? ( excuse my use of Tohei Sensei as an example but I use him as he said it in English without the need for a translator)

Thus I point out continuously to fully understand Aikido a person must learn all three aspects of it and I emphasize the spiritual for that's where it all starts making sense. Unfortunately many equate spiritual with mysterious or vague unreal. Many equate it with the mind, a big mistake.

If you try to relax your body physically you would have a hard time. You could use drugs, you could go to sleep, you could have a big meal and sit by a warm fire or you could get a massage. Now if you relaxed your body by using your mind or got taught how to use your mind to relax you may well have some success via hypnosis or various pschological methods but still it's very dependant on other things or other factors. Now if someone taught you to spiritually relax, wow! You would find that your mind and your body joins in and then all three are relaxed, In fact relaxed yet invigorated, bright, expansive. Food for thought?

Lastly, your point of we all have Ki but not all are being kind. O.K. What if Ki is kindness along with love and goodness and all other good energies, does that mean that when you see others not being kind or loving then they have no Ki? I don't see that at all. I say it's not a matter of if they have it, it is purely a matter of why they are not using it and showing it.?

Hope this has at least been interesting, Peace. G.

niall
12-14-2010, 10:55 PM
The ki of all creation brings accord between the best points of the physical and spiritual sciences and has none of their demerits. If we human beings can be in a correct relationship with this ki then struggle between people would disappear and peace would prevail in this world.

In the past, Martial Arts were mistakenly used to support the seemingly unending killing that characterized Japan's past. Aiki, on the other band, is to save human life. Put another way, Aiki is the way of preventing injury to others. Respect for human life is the way of Aiki, and this is why the "Ai" of "Aiki" is closely related to another Japanese word "Ai," which means "Love." It is because of this relationship, in fact, that I originally named my own way "Aikido."

This also means that the "Aiki" mentioned by martial arts practitioners of old is fundamentally different in both content and form from what I refer to by "Aiki." I hope that everybody will think carefully about what I am saying here.

Budo originates in the divine love which protects everything on the earth.
O Sensei Morihei Ueshiba
http://www.cityaikido.com/osensei-memoirs.pdf

Well that's what O Sensei said. Thanks for the interesting posts, Graham.

Upyu
12-15-2010, 01:46 AM
This thread is just screaming with Robot Chicken potential...

Ki is Kindness ...with Ueshiba running around saying how the secret lies in ejaculating through a rice paper door :D

Sorry, couldn't help myself

CitoMaramba
12-15-2010, 02:56 AM
Aside from "Angry White Pajamas" is there another source for the quote from Ueshiba Kaiso talking about shoji screens and err, a bodily function ,for ki development?

guest1234567
12-15-2010, 02:56 AM
Thank you Graham for your very instructive post. And Niall thanks for your quotes of O'Sensei.

Flintstone
12-15-2010, 05:02 AM
Please notice that Ueshiba talks about the "ki of the universe" and not about "ki". And anyway that's Ueshiba's interpretation (omoto kyo influenced, no doubt) and is far distant from the common and established (by usage of native speakers) meaning of the kanji "ki".

Stay cool.

C. David Henderson
12-15-2010, 11:31 AM
Is love a singular concept in either eastern or in western tradition?

I think not, but I don't read Kanji. However, I've read:

愛 ("ai") = fundamental desire, which may be either selfish or selfless, the later being associated in Buddhism with enlightenment

兼愛 (Chinese -- “jiān'ài”) = universal love

仁 (Ren) = “benevolent love,” associated with Confucianism

Then for you biblical scholars (you know who you are), we have the Greek -- philia, eros, agape, storge, and xenia....

In Medieval Europe arose a peculiar and psychologically kinky concept of courtly love.

And we haven't even gotten to the emotions that may arise in connection with shoji screens....:eek:

.

Demetrio Cereijo
12-15-2010, 12:55 PM
And we haven't even gotten to the emotions that may arise in connection with shoji screens....

They were asking for it :D

jonreading
12-15-2010, 01:12 PM
So we have a personal statement from Graham, "ki is kindness." In post 76, Graham cites an interview with O'Sensei as the source for his claim:
http://www.aikidofaq.com/interviews.html
In the interview, O'Sensei does not speak on the topic of ki, specifically, but provides a larger perspective on "aiki".

We have an interpretation of ki that is inconsistent with most Japanese uses of the term, and is presented without support from historical, cultural, or semantic basis.

In any other realm of academia, we would not even have a thesis presentable for discussion, let along the evaluation of the claim. Without even getting to the argument of the truth of the claim, we can not even verify the claim is valid. Writing is not aikido; you do not write in a "aiki" manner. You do not take out the trash in an "aiki" manner. You do not add "aiki" as a suffix or prefix to any verb to imply that action be conducted in a harmonious fashion. You either clearly write or you do not. You either use correct semantics, grammar, and vocabulary or you do not. It's like lifting the X-wing from the swamp, you either do or do not...

The claim, "ki is kindness," is a invalid claim. Ledyard Sensei already proved the claim is invalid by simply stating a thing that possesses ki may not possess kindness. Whether the claim was poorly written remains to be seen, I argue it is. Several posters have already pointed out that with some clarification the claim could at least become valid, even if it could be proven a false claim. I have made several attempts to solicit additional information that would validate the claim from my perspective; Graham has chosen not to provide that information. Several posters have assisted Graham to validate his claim for him by actually providing the evidential support he lacks. Heck, there is even a post about ki from another thread on this thread that is better prepared than this one.

To be blunt, Graham threw out this little gem without a second thought. He didn't take the time to prepare his statement, provide supportive links, create a logical line of presentation, etc. The topic had merit and I bit. Turns out, I couldn't replicate his conclusion if I wanted to because he doesn't explain his rationale very well. So guess what? Just like any experiment - if you cannot replicate it, it ain't valid.
I told you already I give views for people to contemplate and test for themselves and if they do this they can then acknowledge what I say, add to what I say, tell me what they discovered, tell me they see how it applies to life but enquire how it applies to Aikido, whatever. But only after they have tested it for themselves. No references, no translations, no he saids.

Next we move into this push to validate an invalid argument with this "all opinions should be respected" stuff. An argument that is not well-compiled, concisely presented, and well-supported is disrespectful of its intended readers. The obligation of the argument is to present an argument sufficient to persuade the reader (to support the argument); rhetoric is a discourse of persuasion, not some free-for-all. This purple pen, "you get credit for trying stuff" doesn't work in fact-based argument. If Graham won't take two minutes to link a citation to support his post, why the heck should it be incumbent upon me to verify his claim?
What Shihan supports this view? It's not for me to say, why should I do your work for you. This is my view and if you don't want to test it for yourself and need correlation and back up then find some shihans who agree and find some who disagree and have fun.
That's respect? Not in my world. Opinions are like...err. Well, everyone has an opinion. We have a responsibility to present our opinion as a well-thought, considerate statement. If you choose not to take the time to know about what you are opining, then don't expect others to take the time to give consideration to your opinion. Respect is a term of valuation; respect is not a right. To respect one's opinion is to value the worth of the opinion.

Proper writing is not about hurting feelings, or loving each other, or any of these passive-agressive commentaries retorting criticism. Proper writing is about clearly communicating an idea... 120+ posts and we still don't have a clear idea of what Graham is saying...

C. David Henderson
12-15-2010, 02:17 PM
Hi Jon,

Nice post. I was waiting to see if Graham had a response, but he's gone elsewhere for now.

Honestly, I get the sense that Graham is attempting to share a number of insights he believes he's discovered in his practice, and sees our questions as getting in the way of the essential "truth" of his experiences.

I also, with due respect, do not get the sense that he has much experience in expressing these ideas to an audience except in his "sensei" mode, nor in critical thought.

When someone has so many particular ideas, expresses them in so many words, but cannot or will not engage others in fair debate, it does tend to come across as dismissive.

I really don't think that's intentional, but it does reflect a certain lack of facility in dealing with this realm of "conflict," benign as it is.

Anyway, my two cents.

Take care.

mathewjgano
12-15-2010, 02:20 PM
Is love a singular concept in either eastern or in western tradition?
So much is so subjective. When I was taking TESL courses this was driven home with so many examples of how intended meaning gets misunderstood...and I saw this countless times among my group of friends, who presumably should have a more common base of reference.
Sorry, couldn't help myself

Must...not...let...Everett-grown personality...crack...jokes! Too many...awesome...jokes!
...whew! Close one. That could have been messy.:straightf

Demetrio Cereijo
12-15-2010, 02:41 PM
I really don't think that's intentional, but it does reflect a certain lack of facility in dealing with this realm of "conflict," benign as it is..
I think some dharma combat could benefit Graham.

jonreading
12-15-2010, 03:34 PM
I also, with due respect, do not get the sense that he has much experience in expressing these ideas to an audience except in his "sensei" mode, nor in critical thought.

Which is a shame because so many aikiweb members could really help him refine his arguments. I find posts often help me critically evaluate my conceptual thoughts and thinking modes...

guest1234567
12-16-2010, 01:55 AM
The precious techniques of ki!
They, the spirits (tama) subdue and pacify.
In these techniques of misogi purification
Please direct us, oh Kami of Heaven and Earth!

- Morihei Ueshiba
Today's doka

Flintstone
12-16-2010, 03:58 AM
The precious techniques of ki!
They, the spirits (tama) subdue and pacify.
In these techniques of misogi purification
Please direct us, oh Kami of Heaven and Earth!

- Morihei Ueshiba
Today's doka
So how is this exactly pertinent to the discussion, Carina?

Peter Goldsbury
12-16-2010, 04:18 AM
I guess what I think I'm seeing is a work in progress with regard to defining ki, basing it on something similar to my sense of ki as I learned it from Tsubaki America and thus Tsubaki Okami Yashiro in Japan...this idea of returning to the "source ki," which is pure (for lack of a better term perhaps) and, i presume, "good" (whatever that might be). If I'm not mistaken, Misogi has been explained to me in a similar light, in which over time, our otherwise good nature accumulates tsumi/impurity which we seek to return to its original, better state.

Hello Matthew,

I am sure you know the episode that is the source of misogi. It occurs in the Kojiki, when Izanagi-no-mikoto immerses himself in a river, after returning from Yomotsu-kuni (the underworld) and having some kind of encounter with his dead wife, Izanami-no-mikoto. For Japan, this is a crucial episode, for the two deities created when Izanagi was in the river were Amaterasu-o-mikami and Take-haya Susa-no-o, major deities in the Japanese pantheon.

Now this is not a case of Izanagi's pure nature accumulating tsumi over time, for nothing is stated about Izanagi's 'good'/'pure' nature. It was one, crucial, act, for which he had the very best of reasons for performing--rather like the original sin in Genesis. The woman took the fruit because she was told by the serpent that she would gain extra knowledge.

To put it very crudely, Izanagi and Izanami can be translated, respectively, as male sex/procreation deity and female sex/procreation deity; together they produced the Japanese islands--nothing at all like creation in Genesis. Izanagi went to Yomotsu-kuni because his wife had died in creating the deity of fire; the joint work of creation had not been finished. As far as I can see, KI is not mentioned at all in the early parts of the Kojiki, so there are no episodes where KI needs to be purified. Another, important, point is that Take-haya Susa-no-o did not perform misogi in a river after he was expelled from the land for ascending to Takama-no-hara and attacking Amaterasu's house and land.

Have you discussed Izanagi's misogi 禊, tsumi 罪 / kegare 穢 with Mr Barrish? Perhaps you should?

So, purely on the basis of the original myth, I am unconvinced that KI is like misogi and there is nothing in the Kojien definitions that suggests this.

Best wishes,

PAG

guest1234567
12-16-2010, 05:17 AM
So how is this exactly pertinent to the discussion, Carina?

It is not, I just put it for reflection, sometimes it is good for everyone

Flintstone
12-16-2010, 06:22 AM
It is not, I just put it for reflection, sometimes it is good for everyone
Roses are red,
Violets are blue,
Sugar is sweet;
And so are you.

graham christian
12-16-2010, 07:05 AM
So we have a personal statement from Graham, "ki is kindness." In post 76, Graham cites an interview with O'Sensei as the source for his claim:
http://www.aikidofaq.com/interviews.html
In the interview, O'Sensei does not speak on the topic of ki, specifically, but provides a larger perspective on "aiki".

We have an interpretation of ki that is inconsistent with most Japanese uses of the term, and is presented without support from historical, cultural, or semantic basis.

In any other realm of academia, we would not even have a thesis presentable for discussion, let along the evaluation of the claim. Without even getting to the argument of the truth of the claim, we can not even verify the claim is valid. Writing is not aikido; you do not write in a "aiki" manner. You do not take out the trash in an "aiki" manner. You do not add "aiki" as a suffix or prefix to any verb to imply that action be conducted in a harmonious fashion. You either clearly write or you do not. You either use correct semantics, grammar, and vocabulary or you do not. It's like lifting the X-wing from the swamp, you either do or do not...

The claim, "ki is kindness," is a invalid claim. Ledyard Sensei already proved the claim is invalid by simply stating a thing that possesses ki may not possess kindness. Whether the claim was poorly written remains to be seen, I argue it is. Several posters have already pointed out that with some clarification the claim could at least become valid, even if it could be proven a false claim. I have made several attempts to solicit additional information that would validate the claim from my perspective; Graham has chosen not to provide that information. Several posters have assisted Graham to validate his claim for him by actually providing the evidential support he lacks. Heck, there is even a post about ki from another thread on this thread that is better prepared than this one.

To be blunt, Graham threw out this little gem without a second thought. He didn't take the time to prepare his statement, provide supportive links, create a logical line of presentation, etc. The topic had merit and I bit. Turns out, I couldn't replicate his conclusion if I wanted to because he doesn't explain his rationale very well. So guess what? Just like any experiment - if you cannot replicate it, it ain't valid.

Next we move into this push to validate an invalid argument with this "all opinions should be respected" stuff. An argument that is not well-compiled, concisely presented, and well-supported is disrespectful of its intended readers. The obligation of the argument is to present an argument sufficient to persuade the reader (to support the argument); rhetoric is a discourse of persuasion, not some free-for-all. This purple pen, "you get credit for trying stuff" doesn't work in fact-based argument. If Graham won't take two minutes to link a citation to support his post, why the heck should it be incumbent upon me to verify his claim?

That's respect? Not in my world. Opinions are like...err. Well, everyone has an opinion. We have a responsibility to present our opinion as a well-thought, considerate statement. If you choose not to take the time to know about what you are opining, then don't expect others to take the time to give consideration to your opinion. Respect is a term of valuation; respect is not a right. To respect one's opinion is to value the worth of the opinion.

Proper writing is not about hurting feelings, or loving each other, or any of these passive-agressive commentaries retorting criticism. Proper writing is about clearly communicating an idea... 120+ posts and we still don't have a clear idea of what Graham is saying...

Hi Jon,
Who says I don't like criticism? I think most criticism is pretty pointless however I accept all criticism, doesn't mean I agree with it.

We do indeed have a personal statement-'Ki is kindness' but saying in post 76 I cite an interview with O'Sensei as the source of this claim is wrong.

The source of this statement is obviously me otherwise it wouldn't be a personal statement would it?

The citing of O'Sensei interview was in response to being asked where I get my 'what' O'Sensei said ' views from on another thread.

Telling me you do not write in an Aiki manner is your opinion, obviously you don't write in an Aiki manner but another may write in whatever manner or style they prefer.

The claim Ki is kindness is an invalid claim is also your opinion. Saying it's proved by an EXAMPLE someone gave can only make me smile.

Now how you equate a clarification of the word respect with me trying to say you must respect an invalid argument, well I suggest you read through it again.

O.K. Now we come to the crux of the matter. You are upset by the fact that I do not give evidential support to my statement. Is that not true?

You believe that is the correct way to present something. Is that correct?

You equate this as the correct way to present a .thesis for debate. Is that correct?

You expect me to do this otherwise you can't agree?
Is that correct?

If you and others hold firmly to this point if view then in this particular case you will be disappointed.

The source of the statement is me. I can explain how I come to this but it is not through reference to what anyone else says or believes, it's through my own gained awareness in my practice of Aikido and Ki-atsu.

Given as a statement of truth is from my own personal realizations on Ki.

Now, if I therefore can't give references for who else of note says this then you are perfectly welcome to disregard it.

Respect. G.

Flintstone
12-16-2010, 07:16 AM
So it's you, and you alone, who is absolutely and completely wrong. And this is my opinion (and other's) and so it must be respected. Isn't it.

Well, you lost your time. A lot of it.

lbb
12-16-2010, 08:36 AM
Which is a shame because so many aikiweb members could really help him refine his arguments. I find posts often help me critically evaluate my conceptual thoughts and thinking modes...

I agree with this and with your previous comment (ref. my recent comments in this thread). At the same time, i do find myself sympathizing somewhat with those who find the "rigorously supported argument" approach off-putting. By this, I don't mean that I believe that any thought may be labeled an "opinion" and thus acquire an inviolable claim to be "respected" (where "respected" is more or less synonymous with "accepted whole cloth and considered unquestionable"). I don't mean that I'm in sympathy with intellectual laziness. I do find, though, that when I'm approaching a new concept (or an old concept in a new way), I usually go through a period of very fuzzy thought -- thinking by braille, so to speak. I went through this when I first bumped up against the concept of mushin, for example -- it was experience-based, not based on reading or theory, and it wasn't until literally years later that I heard the term "mushin". I don't find that the rigorous approach helps me to refine my thoughts at that stage: doing so feels kind of like applying a precision instrument when I'm not even sure of what it is I'm creating.

It may be that what we're seeing in this forum is in part a clash of these two different thinking styles, and perhaps a failure by some posters to understand which style they're using at the moment. Unfortunately, it's hard to have a "fuzzy thought" discussion in a medium like this. I think it's natural for anyone reading a "fuzzy thought" post to ask for particulars to give some kind of framework or context; it's very frustrating otherwise. But it's also frustrating for someone trying to feel their way through this fuzzy period to be asked to present their thoughts in a different mode, before they're ready to do so. Maybe part of the difficulty could be solved by acknowledging when we're having fuzzy thoughts, and not trying to present fuzzy thoughts as conclusive or definitive.

Just some fuzzy thoughts on the matter...

dps
12-16-2010, 09:08 AM
Roses are red,
Violets are blue,
Sugar is sweet;
And so are you.

Roses are red,
Violets are purple,
Sugar is sweet,
And so is maple surple.

dps

C. David Henderson
12-16-2010, 09:27 AM
I agree with this and with your previous comment (ref. my recent comments in this thread). At the same time, i do find myself sympathizing somewhat with those who find the "rigorously supported argument" approach off-putting. By this, I don't mean that I believe that any thought may be labeled an "opinion" and thus acquire an inviolable claim to be "respected" (where "respected" is more or less synonymous with "accepted whole cloth and considered unquestionable"). I don't mean that I'm in sympathy with intellectual laziness. I do find, though, that when I'm approaching a new concept (or an old concept in a new way), I usually go through a period of very fuzzy thought -- thinking by braille, so to speak. I went through this when I first bumped up against the concept of mushin, for example -- it was experience-based, not based on reading or theory, and it wasn't until literally years later that I heard the term "mushin". I don't find that the rigorous approach helps me to refine my thoughts at that stage: doing so feels kind of like applying a precision instrument when I'm not even sure of what it is I'm creating.

It may be that what we're seeing in this forum is in part a clash of these two different thinking styles, and perhaps a failure by some posters to understand which style they're using at the moment. Unfortunately, it's hard to have a "fuzzy thought" discussion in a medium like this. I think it's natural for anyone reading a "fuzzy thought" post to ask for particulars to give some kind of framework or context; it's very frustrating otherwise. But it's also frustrating for someone trying to feel their way through this fuzzy period to be asked to present their thoughts in a different mode, before they're ready to do so. Maybe part of the difficulty could be solved by acknowledging when we're having fuzzy thoughts, and not trying to present fuzzy thoughts as conclusive or definitive.

Just some fuzzy thoughts on the matter...

Hi Mary,

First, thanks for your thoughtful comments. I was thinking of this yesterday in terms of a cultural division -- much the same notion, I tend to think.

Second, I agree that exploring ideas requires room to move, cogitate, shift perspective, and at this stage holding up a model of intellectual rigor may begin a winnowing of thought too soon.

I see there also may be different "styles" of attempting to obtain that necessary room, reflecting the different styles to which you've alluded.

What occupied us for quite some time were two ideas -- the categorical nature of the proposition "ki is kindness," and the attribution of this view to O Sensei.

It's clear that some of us did not react to the statement "ki is kindness" (or the other generalizations in the OP) as implying a categorical correlation or identity. To others, when we encounter such statements, it's almost like the writer put a bull's eye on the statement and invited constructive comment.

When the statement is so easy to challenge, to us it seems, as you aptly put it, "intellectually lazy."

As to the attribution of this view to OSensei, it appears we are back at the beginning, Fesig, as now Graham presents the view as his own. Again, I have no question Graham's general view of the man is in line with a not uncommon one, and can certainly see how his observations generally fit within such a view. But to me, these are not the same thing.

Finally, I would submit that one level of what I heard Jon speak to was about writing clearly -- if nothing else, it lessens the risk of misunderstanding, perhaps especially because people have different thinking styles. Also, FWIW, if rumination is presented as rumination, not conclusion, I think it gives the conversation somewhere to go.

Best,

mathewjgano
12-16-2010, 09:36 AM
I am sure you know the episode that is the source of misogi. It occurs in the Kojiki, when Izanagi-no-mikoto immerses himself in a river...Have you discussed Izanagi's misogi 禊, tsumi 罪 / kegare 穢 with Mr Barrish? Perhaps you should?

Hi Prof. Goldsbury,
Thank you again for another great reply! I can see I should do that. My recollections are from brief memories, now over a decade old, so I'm sure they're less than adequate.
My only question for now would have to do with Now this is not a case of Izanagi's pure nature accumulating tsumi over time, for nothing is stated about Izanagi's 'good'/'pure' nature. It was one, crucial, act, for which he had the very best of reasons for performing--rather like the original sin in Genesis. The woman took the fruit because she was told by the serpent that she would gain extra knowledge.
Is it explained what the "very best of reaons for performing" would be? Was the result listed as the intended purpose? I guess I seem to have taken it as implied that going to the underworld would be a "dirty" affair, and taking a dip would be a good way to take care of that (i.e. returning to a state which carries less "impurities"/dirt).
Nothing like the danger of a little bit of knowledge eh? :o
Thanks again, and take care,
Matthew

Demetrio Cereijo
12-16-2010, 11:00 AM
- All right, then. There are four kinds of people in this world: cretins, fools, morons, and lunatics.
- And that covers everybody?
- Oh, yes, including us. Or at least me. If you take a good look, everybody fits into one of these categories. Each of us is sometimes a cretin, a fool, a moron, or a lunatic. A normal person is just a reasonable mix of these components, these four ideal types.
...
Umberto Eco. Foucault's Pendule

What follows after the quote I posted above could give an interesting perspective to threads like this one. IMHO of course.

C. David Henderson
12-16-2010, 11:26 AM
You Diabolical fellow.

jonreading
12-16-2010, 12:39 PM
I am going to clarify my position since this thread is now getting pretty long. My responses on this thread are predominately targeted at the manner in which Graham made his initial post. The manner in which Graham presented his post, and subsequent claim was done in a manner consistent with presenting fact, yet it was opinion.

Aikido is a complicated art. Many of its concepts are complicated in nature and many of use also have cultural and language barriers to overcome. In the discussion of complicated topics on forums like Aikiweb I believe it is necessary to be clear, concise and supportive of statements we make. Aikiweb is home to a variety of countries, languages, educational backgrounds, aikido styles and so forth. It is important that we leave little ambiguity to what we say.

The claim Ki is kindness is an invalid claim is my opinion. I cannot speculate on a subject about which too little information is presented to garner discussion. The bulk of this thread has been tangental to the initial post.

You are upset by the fact that I do not give evidential support to my statement. Is that not true?
I am not upset by the content of the posts on this thread; I am disappointed I cannot participate in following how Graham arrived at his claim that ki is kindness.

You believe that is the correct way to present something. Is that correct?
I believe that rules of language are constructed to maximize clear and effective communication. I believe that we should work within those rules to express ourselves. I think we should use terminology that accurately reflects what we want to say, I believe that we should present our thoughts in a manner consistent with how we wish them to be interpreted.

You equate this as the correct way to present a .thesis for debate. Is that correct?
I believe that the initial post was presented as a conclusion based upon some evidential basis. I choose to request the supporting information to allow myself to arrive at the same conclusion. As I stated in one of my previous posts I now know that the case was that Graham did not present a conclusion for discussion, but was just opining upon a personal reflection.

You expect me to do this otherwise you can't agree?
Is that correct?
Correct. A statement of fact is different than an opinion. I do not believe you can agree or disagree with an opinion, since opinion is merely an expression and not verifiable. I can verify the sun will come up tomorrow; I cannot verify whether blue is the best color.

If you and others hold firmly to this point if view then in this particular case you will be disappointed.
Correct. I was hoping to hear something that would make your statement resonate with me. Instead, I felt like I was missing something since I didn't drink the KoolAid.

The source of the statement is me. I can explain how I come to this but it is not through reference to what anyone else says or believes, it's through my own gained awareness in my practice of Aikido and Ki-atsu.
This could have lead into your personal comment from the beginning. Instead, I your comments were unclear as to the origin of them; I believe this damaged the ethos of your statement by omitting that you had only personal experience as the foundation of your belief.

mathewjgano
12-16-2010, 01:14 PM
I just remembered Tsubaki America describes a bit of this part of the Kojiki with regard to misogi shuho (The norito itself is located above this translation):

"Upon the will of the Great Spirit, by which the Universe is initiated in the cosmic force of creation by the Kamis (Divine Spirit) of birth and growth, and through which the solar system is united in the force of harmony by the Kamis of Yin and Yang, the Kamis of purification came to exist from the impurities which Izanagi-no-Mikoto (Divine creator of the solar system) cleansed from his body in the divine river of heaven.

We will be able to recognize (see) the Kami (truth), only after we purify ourselves of all negativity, impurities, faults and restore ourselves to what we are meant to be (natural brightness)."

http://tsubakishrine.org/misogishuho/index.html

mathewjgano
12-16-2010, 02:44 PM
http://tsubakishrine.org/misogishuho/index.html

Sorry, I meant to include the following as well:
Izanagi-no-OKami (Kami who created solar-system and ancestor Kami of all on Earth) conducted the first Misogi-Shuho following his visit to the Yomi (world of death). His purpose was to "wash away defilement", "cleanse his body from pollutants" and to "perform the purification of his august person". Prior to entering the Tachibana River to cleanse completely Izanagi-no-Mikoto rid himself of all his possessions…..as he was being pursued by elements of impurity from the Underworld he first through his tsue (staff)….from that staff SARUTAHIKO-NO-O-KAMI was born.

This is why SARUTAHIKONO-O-KAMI is also known as DOUSOUJIN, Kami of the Way, Path and Kami to protect the Path. FUNADO-NO-OU-KAMI, Kami to protect crossroads, KUNADO-NO-SAHE-NO-KAMI, Kami to Protect , ward off misfortune….Sarutahiko-no-O-Kami has many other names as well.

Then Izanagi-no-O-Kami threw away all his Jewelry and clothing into the river as they were also contaminated by impurities. These articles became the twelve Kami who protect the directions in which people live, travel, work and conduct business…..

Then after finding the spot in the river not to swift and not to slow Izanagi-no-O-Kami entered the river to purify himself….many Kami were created from this act, many Kami of wrongdoing as well as Kami to rectify wrongdoing originated during this first Misogi.
Doesn't this suggest misogi (and thus Aikido as a misogi practice?) is about cleansing away impurity, even despite the fact that both good and bad things came from that supposed first event? If we can say misogi is about removing negative things, and the goal is a sort of endless effort at positivity (which includes optimism regarding anything/one we encounter, per my understanding of the Misogi no O Harai, at least), wouldn't that imply the corollary of an effort toward kindness...bearing in mind I accept kindness can include a punch to the nose where it might be, well, kind to do so?
Whatever the case, I'll have to think about it quite a bit more and ask Sensei Barrish his view. I'm finding myself going back and changing terms back and forth which is never a good sign to me that I know what I'm talking about...or trying to say for that matter.
Anyhow, sorry for the long tangent, but I'm trying to see how we might make the title phrase...agreeable.
Take care folks!
p.s. rereading this I can see how I might still need to show that "Ki" is being purified (and thus returned to it's positive state)?
...er...never mind any other holes in my attempt at logically connecting these things...:o

C. David Henderson
12-16-2010, 03:28 PM
Speculating a bit further, ki then is present and being expressed both in the "purified" and "unpurified" mind. "Misogi" (programmatically) is supposed to change the characteristics of that flow.

Aikido-as-misogi takes aim at "making better people."

The question posed by this thread is whether the two can exist apart from one another.

For one who also insists that aikido must be budo, an equally pertinent question may be whether the two can exist together, without either having its essential character subsumed by the combination.

Like an old married couple.

Janet Rosen
12-16-2010, 03:44 PM
For one who also insists that aikido must be budo, an equally pertinent question may be whether the two can exist together, without either having its essential character subsumed by the combination.

Like an old married couple.
Hey I resemble that statement! :) I'm 1/2 of an old married couple... AND I see no contradiction in the aikido I do being both a martial art and my spiritual practice. Not that I'm necessarily very good at either...just striving.

Peter Goldsbury
12-17-2010, 01:48 AM
Hello Matthew,

The central focus of the Kojiki story is death. After the encounter with Izanami, Izanagi states:

「吾は、いなしこめ、しこめき穢き国に到りて在りけり。故、吾は御身の禊を為む」

Philppi translates this as:

"I have been to a most unpleasant land, a horrible, unclean land. Therefore I shall purify my body."

The Japanese editor of the Kojiki gives the following rendering in more modern Japanese:

「私は何とも、醜い、醜い汚れた国に行っていたものだ。だから、私は身体の穢れを洗い清めよう」

With good reason Philippi cites the Chinese chronicle Wei zhi, which was composed in 280 AD and so predates the Kojiki by 500 years. A closer translation than Philippi had access to:

"After the burial, the deceased's family members plunge into water to purify themselves from contamination, which is similar to the purifying ablution [practised in the middle Kingdom]."

Philippi also quotes Motoori Norinaga, who rejects a spiritualizing interpretation, insisting that pollution of the body, not of the soul, was meant:

"Exorcism and purification are for the purpose of cleansing the pollutions of the body. To say that they are for exorcising and cleansing the spirit is a concept completely alien to Japanese antiquity." (Philippi, Kojiki, p. 68.)

Of course, it is not alien to much more modern Japanese notions, especially Jinja Shinto, which is the postwar successor to State Shinto (国家神道). However, (1) this implies over 1,000 years on interpretation of the Kojiki text and (2) I am not sure that Jinja Shinto can be equated with Omoto-kyo.

Best wishes,

PAG

Peter Goldsbury
12-19-2010, 08:17 AM
I see in some of the older stuff the use of kokoro and I was not familiar with that term. The phrase later came up in "Budo Training in Aikido." It seems to be used as a general term that describes the unification of mind (intention) and body. Oddly enough, it seems the translation chooses to use this term in addition to spirituality (implying maybe some separation between ki as "intent of the mind" and a spiritual connotation?). I enjoyed hearing more about that concept though; thank you Dr. Goldsbury.

Hello Mr Reading,

I missed this short post of yours. Kokoro is a concept that is as multi-focused as KI. One of the problems involved in a translation for non-Japanese speakers, who have been brought up in an intellectual tradition influenced by Descartes, is that the translation has to make choices. So, you have the semi-Cartesian distinction of body / mind / heart / soul / spirit and an English translation of kokoro has to take account of the last four of these. When I have the time, I will spell out the various meaning of 心 kokoro in detail.

In addition, I did not stress the fact that the third definition of KI in my earlier post (#110) defined the term as a way of talking about the kokoro and cautioned that there were many such ways. It did not define KI in terms of kokoro itself. So it is a mistake, in my opinion, to find a spiritual meaning of KI simply because the word KI is used in expressions relating to kokoro.

Best wishes,

PAG

mrlizard123
12-20-2010, 07:06 AM
I've read through the whole thread and was wondering if we could all agree on one thing:

kindness does begin with ki

;)

Flintstone
12-20-2010, 07:36 AM
Only in writing. At least in English. Yes.

mrlizard123
12-20-2010, 07:41 AM
Only in writing. At least in English. Yes.

Damn...

*takes fishing rod elsewhere* :D

jonreading
12-20-2010, 09:43 AM
In addition, I did not stress the fact that the third definition of KI in my earlier post (#110) defined the term as a way of talking about the kokoro and cautioned that there were many such ways. It did not define KI in terms of kokoro itself. So it is a mistake, in my opinion, to find a spiritual meaning of KI simply because the word KI is used in expressions relating to kokoro.


Dr. Goldsbury,
Jon please; Mr. Reading is still my father. I did not mean to take your definitions beyond the scope of your explanation, but I appreciate the clarification. In fact, I was [unclearly] throwing out that in Budo Renshu, Kokoro was used as a separate term from spirit, implying they were in fact distinctly separate items. I find that like your parting comment, we almost get affirmation that kokoro is not the same as spirituality, as it is explained in Budo Renshu.

Thank you for the further clarification. I am finding kokoro a difficult subject on which to find information outside native Japanese, and within the scope of aikido.

Mike Sigman
12-20-2010, 04:12 PM
Rob John made a seemingly boyish comment back in post #122:

This thread is just screaming with Robot Chicken potential...

Ki is Kindness ...with Ueshiba running around saying how the secret lies in ejaculating through a rice paper door :D

Sorry, couldn't help myself

Hold that thought a minute and take a look at Professor Goldsbury's comments on Misogi, procreation, and so forth, a few posts back from this one.

Then take a look at this excerpt from the website:
http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-PHIL/ew88808.htm

The Origins of Misogi-kyo

Misogi-kyo was one of the thirteen religious groups designated "Sect Shinto" (shuha shinto) by the Meiji government. It has never been a large movement (in 1995 it reportedly had a membership of 99,180), but, like the better-known Kurozumi-kyo, with which it shares several features, its early history and teachings vividly illustrate the religious world of late Tokugawa Japan. The group has its origins in the activities and teachings of Inoue Masakane (1790-1849), son of a samurai employed in the domain of Tatebayashi (in today's Gunma Prefecture).[13] When Inoue was eighteen,[14] he practiced Zen under the guidance of Tetsuyu Zenni, an Obaku nun in the lineage of Shoto Mokuan (1611-1648). A year later, he set off on a journey to seek the guidance of various Shinto, Confucian, and Buddhist teachers, and eventually completed a stint in the Chinese medicine school of Nagata Tokuhon (1513-1630). By the age of twenty-five, Inoue began training under the Kyoto physiognomist Mizuno Nanboku. He underwent a strict regimen, carrying out menial work for his teacher and restricting himself to simple food and dress. It was reportedly during this time that Inoue learned to regulate his breath by concentrating it below his navel.

After mastering the disciplines of the Nanboku school, the young man (now twenty-eight) moved to Edo and began practicing divination (under the name Shueki). The following year he added finger-pressure therapy (shiatsu ryoho) to his growing repertoire of physical and spiritual skills.

From about this time Inoue started to formulate his own system of therapeutic arts. He began to attract a small following, supporting himself in the meantime by practicing medicine (under the name Toen). But his search was not yet over. At the age of forty-four he happened to hear some Shinto teachings from an old woman in the Tatebayashi domainal residence in Edo; he is said to have been profoundly moved and subsequently had a "divine dream" (shinmu) that inspired him to take up the "way of the gods." The next year (1834) he returned to Kyoto and enrolled in the Shirakawa (Hakke) school of Shinto, where he was initiated into ritual ablution (misogi) and, reportedly, breath-control practices.[15] When he was forty-seven, Inoue received approval from the Jingikan to carry out Shinto worship rituals, and, two years later, he was permitted to supervise miko ceremonial duties. In 1840, he became shrine priest of the Umeda Shinmei Shrine in Musashi (under the name Shikibu).

Once he obtained this official status, Inoue began to propagate in earnest the purification rituals that were to become the central practices of Misogi-kyo. But by 1841, his teaching activities had aroused the suspicions of the Superintendent of Temples and Shrines (Jisha bugyo), and he was imprisoned along with his wife, Onari. The Shirakawa house appealed to the Superintendent to remove the charges, but with little success--though Inoue was transferred to the custody of the Umeda community. The following year, he wrote a summary of his teachings and presented it to the authorities, presumably in order to exonerate himself.[16] But the office of the Superintendent continued to view Inoue and his teachings as a potential threat to the public order, and exiled him to Miyakejima.[17] He is said to have occupied himself there by healing the ill, praying for rain, building shrines, supervising silkworm cultivation, and building reservoirs. He died in exile at the age of sixty. Note the underlined and bolded part about concentrating the breath (the ki) under the navel (i.e., at the tanden, the one point).

What I'm getting at is that Rob John's comment, while somewhat indecorous, is related to the commentary about misogi in the text-box above. One of the side effects of the breathing where you concentrate the breath below the navel is that you regain or retain strong sexual function as you develop some unusual strength via "ki" training. This is a basic factor in the development of "ki" strength and it's the reason the breathing practices are so importantly associated with Aikido (and many other Asian arts). Rob's comment may have been borderline ribaldry, but O-Sensei's known comment about rice-paper doors probably had more to do with Misogi and the sexual function of breathing exercises in Misogi than it does with kindness.

YMMV

Mike Sigman

mathewjgano
12-21-2010, 10:36 PM
Rob John made a seemingly boyish comment back in post #122
...Rob's comment may have been borderline ribaldry, but O-Sensei's known comment about rice-paper doors probably had more to do with Misogi and the sexual function of breathing exercises in Misogi than it does with kindness.

YMMV

Mike Sigman

I thought it was irony at its best! And from what I've been told, we of the male gender do tend to be kinder after, well, "ki breathing exercises." So maybe there's the missing link to this thread...:D
FW(L)IW
Matt