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Andrew Macdonald
10-19-2010, 03:59 AM
How necessary is it to be able to do a high break fall. the like of which you see in demostrations?

It seems almost a trademark of Aikido but is it more for disply purposes? will a low break fallbe just as good and pssible more practical?

and while i am on the subject, I don't recall any videos of o-sensei's uke performing this kind of high break fall does anyone know the origins?

WilliB
10-19-2010, 04:40 AM
How necessary is it to be able to do a high break fall. the like of which you see in demostrations?

It seems almost a trademark of Aikido but is it more for disply purposes? will a low break fallbe just as good and pssible more practical?


In my experience high breakfalls are only really *necessary* with a few techniques like some versions of koshinage. The wild breakfalls from standard techniques that you see in demonstrations are for show, imho.
And the older guys in the dojo skip those; no need to get slammed on the mat when you are over 70.

amoeba
10-19-2010, 05:50 AM
It depends: in the Aikido I do, techniques like shiho nage and kote gaeshi are supposed to be thrown into a breakfall eventually. Of course you can throw them so that a low fall is possible, but I guess it would be difficult (and potentially dangerous) to attemt one from a "full power" technique...
But I know there are also styles that do not do breakfalls at all, so it's not necessary for aikido as such. But when you're thrown accordingly, you might have to do one. Though no one will throw you like that if they're not sure you can take it...

ninjaqutie
10-19-2010, 10:24 AM
Our dojo does them when its called for. If you get caught doing it when it isn't, or are jumping into a breakfall, you can get scolded. :) No need to slam your body around unless its called for. Sometimes if I get behind as uke or due to the power, I take breakfalls. I am working on making them softer, but I haven't gotten there yet.

I guess the exception would be if you were working on breakfalls.... then you have to take them.

dps
10-19-2010, 01:35 PM
How necessary is it to be able to do a high break fall. the like of which you see in demostrations?



It is only necessary when you actually need to use it and not necessarily whilst practicing Aikido. A good skill to have when falling from any large height.

David

bkedelen
10-19-2010, 02:44 PM
There are sutemi versions of many techniques where, for example, nage acquires uke's limb and balance and then nage does a breakfall on purpose. This is just one example of an avenue of study that will remain closed to you if you cannot do a standing breakfall.

Lyle Laizure
10-20-2010, 02:11 PM
The only high falls I am aware of is from koshinage. Aren't the rest the same?

WilliB
10-21-2010, 12:26 AM
There are sutemi versions of many techniques where, for example, nage acquires uke's limb and balance and then nage does a breakfall on purpose. This is just one example of an avenue of study that will remain closed to you if you cannot do a standing breakfall.

A "standing breakfall"? I think if you are breakfalling, you are not really standing :confused:

guest1234567
10-21-2010, 01:43 AM
The only high falls I am aware of is from koshinage. Aren't the rest the same?

It depends from how tori throws you.... in shihonage and kotegaeshi he can throw you for a high fall or just to fall in ushiro.

Lyle Laizure
10-21-2010, 10:43 AM
It depends from how tori throws you.... in shihonage and kotegaeshi he can throw you for a high fall or just to fall in ushiro.

I think I see what you mean. The difference between the two being that the back breakfall doesn't involve air time while the "high" fall you refer to does.

Janet Rosen
10-21-2010, 10:56 AM
I think I see what you mean. The difference between the two being that the back breakfall doesn't involve air time while the "high" fall you refer to does.

plus that the high fall is a forward one, not a back one.

guest1234567
10-21-2010, 12:22 PM
I think I see what you mean. The difference between the two being that the back breakfall doesn't involve air time while the "high" fall you refer to does.
Yes to get a high fall tori must throw uke turning his hand and arm in both techniques more to the outside, but for the back breakfall more to the inside, I hope I you understand me, I studied english only at school and learned it working 6 month as aupair in Toronto, so sorry for my small vocabulary.

Maarten De Queecker
10-21-2010, 01:08 PM
Our dojo does them when its called for. If you get caught doing it when it isn't, or are jumping into a breakfall, you can get scolded. :) No need to slam your body around unless its called for. Sometimes if I get behind as uke or due to the power, I take breakfalls. I am working on making them softer, but I haven't gotten there yet.

I guess the exception would be if you were working on breakfalls.... then you have to take them.
I'd get scolded a lot then. I enjoy taking breakfalls, and, coming from a judo background when I was a kid, I never quite understood the general aikioist's fear of things like koshinage. Those things are pretty standard in both Judo and Jiu-Jitsu, and don't hurt at all if you would at least try to practice them.

You cannot make breakfalls softer. You just slam full-weight into the mat. It makes noise, nothing can be done about that.

Adam Pilipshen
10-21-2010, 02:14 PM
It depends: in the Aikido I do, techniques like shiho nage and kote gaeshi are supposed to be thrown into a breakfall eventually. Of course you can throw them so that a low fall is possible, but I guess it would be difficult (and potentially dangerous) to attemt one from a "full power" technique...
But I know there are also styles that do not do breakfalls at all, so it's not necessary for aikido as such. But when you're thrown accordingly, you might have to do one. Though no one will throw you like that if they're not sure you can take it...

I just wanted to share an interesting story I heard from someone that was at Hombu Dojo in the early 60's. He was taking Arikawa Sensei's class in which shiho nage was being taught - I have heard Arikawa Sensei's favorite technique was shiho nage. That day he was demonstrating the technique in a way that Uke had to take a high-fall (i.e. the elbow was being leveraged). A few minutes later O'Sensei came on to that mat, took over class, and demonstrated the same technique with the same Uke. The Uke again took a high-fall and was then scolded by O'Sensei. Since I wish to remain respectfull to the image of the late great Arikawa Sensei, let me just say that the Uke was not the only one "critiqued" that day.

Flintstone
10-21-2010, 02:39 PM
You cannot make breakfalls softer. You just slam full-weight into the mat. It makes noise, nothing can be done about that.
I disagree, but am afraid of the moderator, so I won't say no more.

Demetrio Cereijo
10-21-2010, 02:46 PM
The wild breakfalls from standard techniques that you see in demonstrations are for show,
or caused by nage's poor technique.

Michael Neal
10-21-2010, 02:52 PM
I have probably taken many thousands of break falls in Judo and agree with Maarten, you can try and take softer break falls at your own peril.

DonMagee
10-21-2010, 03:36 PM
No amount of ki is going to allow you to change the laws of gravity.

I think you only take the breakfalls you are forced to take. No more no less. Choosing to take a big fall when a little one would suffice is doing a injustice to your training partner.

guest1234567
10-21-2010, 04:44 PM
I disagree, but am afraid of the moderator, so I won't say no more.

I think the same as Alejandro, I know a few guys who fall like a leaf, we name the high fall so in spanish and practice it, the most important is confidence in your tori and a very relaxed body.

ninjaqutie
10-21-2010, 05:19 PM
....I never quite understood the general aikioist's fear of things like koshinage. Those things are pretty standard in both Judo and Jiu-Jitsu, and don't hurt at all if you would at least try to practice them.

I actually love being thrown that way. Reminds me of the throws I used to do in my previous style. :)

You cannot make breakfalls softer. You just slam full-weight into the mat. It makes noise, nothing can be done about that.

I have seen it done. Some people just seem to land softer even when thrown equally as hard as the next uke. Not to mention, there is a difference between softer and quiet. Sure, there will be sound during a breakfall, but a breakfall doesn't have to be hard on the body.

niall
10-21-2010, 05:49 PM
Adam mentioned Arikawa Sensei. I was his uke for many years (I don't think I ever took a high ukemi from shiho nage) and one thing I experienced is relevant. For example most people take high/jumping ukemi from kotegaeshi. I used to as well. Then I became Arikawa sensei's uke in 1990 and I had to adjust. His kote gaeshi was sharp and powerful and direct and so I usually just didn't have the time to take jumping ukemi any more. Bam! Straight down into the mat.

Demetrio Cereijo
10-21-2010, 06:08 PM
Arikawa Sensei received the memo, or so it seems.

Randall Lim
10-22-2010, 02:54 AM
How necessary is it to be able to do a high break fall. the like of which you see in demostrations?

It seems almost a trademark of Aikido but is it more for disply purposes? will a low break fallbe just as good and pssible more practical?

and while i am on the subject, I don't recall any videos of o-sensei's uke performing this kind of high break fall does anyone know the origins?

In my opinion, whether to perform a high or low Ukemi all depends on the manner in which & feeling of which I am floored.

If my Tori delivers me at a low height, I would lower my centre as far as posible to execute a low & gentle Ukemi.

But if he delivers me at a height too high for me to execute a low & gentle Ukemi, I would resort to a high one, but extending me slapping arm further back to absorb the impact of the high fall.

I always make sure that in whatever manner I Ukemi:

(1) I must feel centred with the throw (pivotted at one point, the throwing point), and

(2) It must not harm if it were to be hard ground.

Andrew Macdonald
10-22-2010, 09:53 AM
so it would seem from some of the post that O-sensei didn't like or approve of the hig breakfalls. so where did they come from?

sorokod
10-22-2010, 10:10 AM
so it would seem from some of the post that O-sensei didn't like or approve of the hig breakfalls. so where did they come from?

From the same place most of the modern Aikido came from. Take a look here at the "founder approved ukemi"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98yRuBkUBGQ

Randall Lim
10-22-2010, 07:26 PM
From the same place most of the modern Aikido came from. Take a look here at the "founder approved ukemi"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98yRuBkUBGQ

I have just viewed this clip. But aren't these all high ukemis??

kokyu
11-12-2010, 11:27 AM
You cannot make breakfalls softer. You just slam full-weight into the mat. It makes noise, nothing can be done about that.

I agree there will be some noise, but the louder it is, the more impact suffered by that part of your body.. you may not feel the effects straightaway, but try slamming loudly for 10 years and then perhaps you may start to feel *something not quite right*

If you watch Donovan Waite Sensei's Ukemi DVDs, his ukemi style spreads the force of the throw both vertically and horizontally, thus softening your impact with the mat

There are some great videos on Youtube showing soft breakfalls... of course whether you can use these in normal practice depends on whether your dojo does not mind students performing a different kind of ukemi

Advanced Ukemi 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_FcUHI7ER4&feature=related)

I am not sure if the soft style in Advanced Ukemi 2 can result in a twisted arm/shoulder because it seems rely heavily on the arm reaching so far ahead of the fall - appreciate if someone could comment on this...

USF Front Feather Fall (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5U2E0kA8_8)

RED
11-12-2010, 05:03 PM
I disagree, but am afraid of the moderator, so I won't say no more.

Don't be afraid. You are right to disagree with that statement.

Flintstone
11-12-2010, 06:12 PM
Don't be afraid. You are right to disagree with that statement.
Been almost one month from that post. Is it something personal?

Dan Richards
11-15-2010, 05:57 AM
You might want to ask yourself how learning to fall safely would help you, regardless of whether you're in the dojo, or on a ladder, or ice, or concrete, or on a bike, or in a pillow fight.

Anjisan
11-15-2010, 06:15 PM
For me, it is not to high break fall or to not high break fall that is the question per se. It is more a question of does the Uke have the skills (relevant to their rank/time training) to allow me a Nage the freedom to explore as far as I am able. Because ultimately, one can only progress as far as your Ukes will allow. Of course this applies to the ability to maintain a fluid connection as well a take a break fall.

It cannot be a complete coincidence that when Shihan such a Saotome sensei call up Ukes, they are usually very capable of taking whatever ukemi is necessary because Saotome (and I quite sure other Shihan as well) often do not know what technique or sequence of techniques they are going to execute until they are "in the moment".

Break falls are a part of the art to some degree and due to how our relationship unfolds, self-defence requirements of the situation it may appear as necessary either due to Nage error and the need of Uke to protect themselves OR the direct intent of the Nage due to whim or necessity. Certainly if one gets to Shodan, I would hope that it would not be an issue. That said, I realize like my sensei has stated, that one's body only has so many break fall in it high or otherwise so pick your spots as both Nage and Uke.

RED
11-18-2010, 03:58 PM
Been almost one month from that post. Is it something personal?

No, just noticed what you said.
Been out of the country this last week...so I just noticed this post as well.

Flintstone
11-19-2010, 04:44 AM
No, just noticed what you said.
Been out of the country this last week...so I just noticed this post as well.
Watch out, Emperor stalking us.

RED
11-19-2010, 03:29 PM
Watch out, Emperor stalking us.

:eek:

John Matsushima
11-20-2010, 10:47 AM
I think that how to take ukemi isn't the choice of the uke. If the person doing the technique is good enough, the uke will be falling however the nage decides. I don't like it when people blame the uke and say things like "You are falling wrong...you were were supposed to do a breakfall", or "You shouldn't have done a forward roll, you were supposed to do a backward roll". The nage is the one that can adjust the technique to give uke a little more air time, to cause him to land on his head, or to fall into a nice gentle plop on the ground. That's also why I think that the nage is responsible for the safety of the uke.

It's like bowling, by controlling how you throw the ball will determine the direction, whether it goes straight or curves, or goes into the gutter. The ball has no decision in the matter.

How necessary is the breakfall? Well, I think it is a matter of demonstrating that one can execute a technique (without the uke willingly take a jump) with control and precision with regards to balance, timing, and distance.

People shouldn't be jumping into ukemi anyway, but I guess that is one school of thought in Aikido.

Anjisan
11-20-2010, 12:25 PM
I think that how to take ukemi isn't the choice of the uke. If the person doing the technique is good enough, the uke will be falling however the nage decides. I don't like it when people blame the uke and say things like "You are falling wrong...you were were supposed to do a breakfall", or "You shouldn't have done a forward roll, you were supposed to do a backward roll". The nage is the one that can adjust the technique to give uke a little more air time, to cause him to land on his head, or to fall into a nice gentle plop on the ground. That's also why I think that the nage is responsible for the safety of the uke.

It's like bowling, by controlling how you throw the ball will determine the direction, whether it goes straight or curves, or goes into the gutter. The ball has no decision in the matter.

How necessary is the breakfall? Well, I think it is a matter of demonstrating that one can execute a technique (without the uke willingly take a jump) with control and precision with regards to balance, timing, and distance.

People shouldn't be jumping into ukemi anyway, but I guess that is one school of thought in Aikido.

I do agree that Nage has to look out for Uke. However, Uke has to be responsible for him or herself as well. All the best individuals that I have seen take awesome Ukemi are actively engaged, not a kite on string. If one ever wants to get into and understand (reversals), that can only be done if Uke is actively engaged. When I am taking ukemi for my sensei, he changes as I change throughout the interaction, until its conclusion. However, I am "there" throughout the connection.