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George S. Ledyard
10-17-2010, 12:58 PM
One Reversal for Kotegaeshi (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68xgv_DtUM8)

NagaBaba
10-17-2010, 04:52 PM
You know, George, we have similar view what aikido is. But this clip is very boring AND I'm using a lot of etiquette to describe my feelings here :)
After watching it, I would never buy dvd. 5 minutes of talking, one throw and again 5 minutes of talking... Is this your usual style of teaching? :0

I don't think it is a right way of teaching kaeshi waza. Starting with your partner, who is not even trying to unbalance you correctly, nor doing kotegaeshi...he is simply going through the motions waiting for your counter. So all this situation is completely fake right from the beginning...

You are not presenting how to behave as a Uke in 'normal' scenario, when Nage is doing full power technique on you. Nage is much shorter and much weaker then you...It is not adding much credibility to the the rest of dvd. It is not easy to believe that the way you are doing a counter will work successfully with Nage the same size as you...

oisin bourke
10-17-2010, 09:04 PM
You know, George, we have similar view what aikido is. But this clip is very boring AND I'm using a lot of etiquette to describe my feelings here :)
After watching it, I would never buy dvd. 5 minutes of talking, one throw and again 5 minutes of talking... Is this your usual style of teaching? :0

I don't think it is a right way of teaching kaeshi waza. Starting with your partner, who is not even trying to unbalance you correctly, nor doing kotegaeshi...he is simply going through the motions waiting for your counter. So all this situation is completely fake right from the beginning...

You are not presenting how to behave as a Uke in 'normal' scenario, when Nage is doing full power technique on you. Nage is much shorter and much weaker then you...It is not adding much credibility to the the rest of dvd. It is not easy to believe that the way you are doing a counter will work successfully with Nage the same size as you...

Constructive criticism indeed...:rolleyes:

The whole point about nage being bigger than Tori is irrelevant IMO. An instructional video should illustrate mechanics clearly. I thought the kaeshi was a very interesting counter. The technique seemed to engage mainly the shoulder as opposed to the spine/hips?
Didn't hear the explanation though.

danj
10-17-2010, 11:12 PM
HI George,
Nice video and explanation. I'd be interested on thoughts on how nage prevents the kaeshiwaza, or is that the subject of the forthcoming series? I am guessing nage might ride ukes movement and continue to finish with a 'non attached' kotegaeshi shape that might look more like a sayu undo (sokomen?) movement.

best,
dan

WilliB
10-17-2010, 11:18 PM
HI George,
Nice video and explanation. I'd be interested on thoughts on how nage prevents the kaeshiwaza

By doing a kaeshi-kaeshi waza? Of course to prevent that, there is the kaeshi-kaeshi-kaeshi waza. And to prevent that... :rolleyes:

George S. Ledyard
10-18-2010, 02:26 AM
You know, George, we have similar view what aikido is. But this clip is very boring AND I'm using a lot of etiquette to describe my feelings here :)
After watching it, I would never buy dvd. 5 minutes of talking, one throw and again 5 minutes of talking... Is this your usual style of teaching? :0

I don't think it is a right way of teaching kaeshi waza. Starting with your partner, who is not even trying to unbalance you correctly, nor doing kotegaeshi...he is simply going through the motions waiting for your counter. So all this situation is completely fake right from the beginning...

You are not presenting how to behave as a Uke in 'normal' scenario, when Nage is doing full power technique on you. Nage is much shorter and much weaker then you...It is not adding much credibility to the the rest of dvd. It is not easy to believe that the way you are doing a counter will work successfully with Nage the same size as you...

a) I have no problem with you not buying my videos
b) I can and do execute this kind of thing on ukes my size or larger
c) I am sorry to be boring, but yes I do teach that way quite a lot. Folks who are impatient to get on with the throwing don't do well in my classes. I am more interested in making sure folks know exactly what they are trying to do. Especially when I am making a video, folks would not have any idea what I was doing without the explanation.

Videos are an issue because you can't "feel" what is going on. Ikeda Sensei won't put much of this stuff on videos for the general public because he knows they'll just think it's fake. So he only sells them at seminars after folks have had a chance to directly experience that it does work. I personally don't care whether you think it works or not so I put the stuff out there. Folks will respond or not. It's not my problem.

George S. Ledyard
10-18-2010, 02:31 AM
Constructive criticism indeed...:rolleyes:

The whole point about nage being bigger than Tori is irrelevant IMO. An instructional video should illustrate mechanics clearly. I thought the kaeshi was a very interesting counter. The technique seemed to engage mainly the shoulder as opposed to the spine/hips?
Didn't hear the explanation though.

Most of the energy ones runs in Aikido hits either the shoulders or the hips. If you like the "ball" analogy, the ikkyo techniques tend to go over the ball and involve the hitting the shoulders with the connection whereas the shihonage, kotegaeshi, hiji nage techniques go around the bottom of the ball and hit the hips. Many techniques actually hit both.
The one in the clip involves setting up a situation in which the partner is using you for support and then you essentially take that support away. It involves a bit more than that but that's most of it.

George S. Ledyard
10-18-2010, 02:40 AM
HI George,
Nice video and explanation. I'd be interested on thoughts on how nage prevents the kaeshiwaza, or is that the subject of the forthcoming series? I am guessing nage might ride ukes movement and continue to finish with a 'non attached' kotegaeshi shape that might look more like a sayu undo (sokomen?) movement.

best,
dan

We asked Ushiro Sensei about what happens when the two opponents in a martial encounter both have these skills. He said, "the one that wins is the one that gets inside the best."

I think that, when one starts to really understand connection, the result is an understanding of why there was atemi in every technique in the old days. You have to disrupt the opponent's ability to maintain his connection to you while you stay connected to him. The way to do that is to put him "out of phase" with you via the atemi. In practice this can be simply getting him to react to an atemi. In fighting you break something. Either way, it breaks the connection the partner has with your center, at least for a moment, and puts him out of sync so he can't adjust to what you are doing.

In the end, it's kaeshiwaza that gives you an understanding why it was said that Aikido is 90% atemi.

Lan Powers
10-18-2010, 12:58 PM
QuoteI think that, when one starts to really understand connection, the result is an understanding of why there was atemi in every technique in the old days. You have to disrupt the opponent's ability to maintain his connection to you while you stay connected to him. The way to do that is to put him "out of phase" with you via the atemi. In practice this can be simply getting him to react to an atemi. In fighting you break something. Either way, it breaks the connection the partner has with your center, at least for a moment, and puts him out of sync so he can't adjust to what you are doing.

In the end, it's kaeshiwaza that gives you an understanding why it was said that Aikido is 90% atemi.

Probably the most succinct explanation for the disconnect between the Atemi vs the "flowing-harmoniously with NO nasty striking" approaches to Aikido.
I, personally, like the detailed explanations and technical depth presented.
Fits my learning style, I guess....
Thank you Ledyard Sensei

NagaBaba
10-18-2010, 03:08 PM
a) I have no problem with you not buying my videos
b) I can and do execute this kind of thing on ukes my size or larger.
I think there is miscommunication here. I know you can execute this thing on anybody. My question was about your partner - not only smaller and weaker then you, but also not willing to do any technique on you. I'd say, in such set up, one doesn't need to train aikido at all to do kaeshiwaza :) In fact, on the clip we can see there is no technique(against tsuki) so there is not kaeshiwaza at all....

What I consider kaeshiwaza, when Tori is really doing a techniques on me, we can see clearly he is taking my balance, applying efficient physical locks etc. Then, I can demonstrate point by point, HOW to neutralise his attempt in different points of his technique(WHEN)(i.e. in the beginning, in the middle, in the end...ect) and WHY is it possible from biomechanical point of view and/or from timing point of view(with 3 basic timings)...


c) I am sorry to be boring, but yes I do teach that way quite a lot. Folks who are impatient to get on with the throwing don't do well in my classes. I am more interested in making sure folks know exactly what they are trying to do. Especially when I am making a video, folks would not have any idea what I was doing without the explanation.

Videos are an issue because you can't "feel" what is going on. Ikeda Sensei won't put much of this stuff on videos for the general public because he knows they'll just think it's fake. So he only sells them at seminars after folks have had a chance to directly experience that it does work. I personally don't care whether you think it works or not so I put the stuff out there. Folks will respond or not. It's not my problem.
I'm not impatient. I understand the difficulty of the issue 'can't feel'. However, I don't believe the words can replace it. I expected very detailed physical presentation, kind of step by step instruction with separately filmed closeups to every detail(i.e. feet position, hips and body angles, force vectors, body to body reactions in contact points...etc). Instead all we can see is general picture, not helping at all to understand what you are actually doing.

AsimHanif
10-18-2010, 03:16 PM
Szczepan, you 'may' have a point. Would you mind posting a clip of you executing and explaining your points?
Thank you.

George S. Ledyard
10-18-2010, 05:22 PM
I think there is miscommunication here. I know you can execute this thing on anybody. My question was about your partner - not only smaller and weaker then you, but also not willing to do any technique on you. I'd say, in such set up, one doesn't need to train aikido at all to do kaeshiwaza :) In fact, on the clip we can see there is no technique(against tsuki) so there is not kaeshiwaza at all....

What I consider kaeshiwaza, when Tori is really doing a techniques on me, we can see clearly he is taking my balance, applying efficient physical locks etc. Then, I can demonstrate point by point, HOW to neutralise his attempt in different points of his technique(WHEN)(i.e. in the beginning, in the middle, in the end...ect) and WHY is it possible from biomechanical point of view and/or from timing point of view(with 3 basic timings)...

I'm not impatient. I understand the difficulty of the issue 'can't feel'. However, I don't believe the words can replace it. I expected very detailed physical presentation, kind of step by step instruction with separately filmed closeups to every detail(i.e. feet position, hips and body angles, force vectors, body to body reactions in contact points...etc). Instead all we can see is general picture, not helping at all to understand what you are actually doing.

This video is a "teaching tool". In other words, my partner is there to help me show other folks how to do something. Actually, in the clips that were edited out, I did spend some time getting a more committed kotegaeshi from my partner. I had to cut that out because Facebook clips can only be ten minutes.

I just got back from doing a seminar in Tallahassee in which I did get to play with a fellow who is substantially larger than I am. We call him "Shrek" and he weighs in at well over 300 lbs. I was quite able to do what I needed to with him. My dojo lacks seniors of similar body structure... sorry. I either have beginners who are huge and really strong but with no skills or I have pretty advanced students who are half my size (even after my recent weight loss). If you know any 300 pound 4th or 5th Dans who want to move to my dojo, please refer them. It would be fun.

Yes, it is an unfortunate aspect of training to a higher level that there are fewer and fewer folks who have the training to stop you or counter you. My partner in the video is a very accomplished Nidan but I doubt he could throw me in any controlled situation unless I colluded. But when you are teaching folks how to do a technique, that is not the time to have a contest. It is the time to slow things down and make what is happening clear.

Anyway, in a real confrontation, if the opponent gets your center, you are not getting it back... you are probably dead or unconscious. But that has little to do with practice on the mat. You could possibly perform sutemi waza but no other reversal is possible once your structure is compromised. The whole idea is that you take the other guy's center at the instant of contact. That's what the clip is about. He didn't break my balance because I had already messed his up. Of course at the speed we were going, he could have countered the counter. That's always true when working slower.

And yes, as I said in the clip, there are a number of "crossover points" in most techniques at which a reversal can take place, assuming that the nage doesn't already have your center. The one in the clip from kotegaeshi is one from the first "crossover point" which occurs at the instant of contact. There are a couple of reversals that can take place at that instant. Then there are several that can take place at later stages of an attempted kotegaeshi, including a final sutemi waza if nage actually succeeds in performing the kotegaeshi.

The video I just released on Kaeshiwaza is entitled The Principles of Kaeshiwaza and is focused on just that, the principles behind a reversal. When I do Volume 2 it will basically be a presentation of a number of kaeshiwaza done from various Kihon Waza. There will be less discussion of principle and more techniques shown. I will put clips on-line when I film that one so as to not bore you as completely as I have so far.

Michael Varin
10-19-2010, 05:02 AM
This is kaeshi waza at our school.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i02Mkq0yrsE

This video was shot almost 3 years ago. It's a light exercise. Muscular resistance is discouraged. There are no explanations, and no contrived what ifs. What you see are guys actually trying to apply and counter techniques when they naturally arise.

AsimHanif
10-19-2010, 06:42 AM
"Anyway, in a real confrontation, if the opponent gets your center, you are not getting it back... you are probably dead or unconscious. But that has little to do with practice on the mat"

Ledyard Sensei, could you explain this? One of my issues with most aikido I've seen is that this issue is not addressed...recovering when you lose your center.

Regards,
Asim

George S. Ledyard
10-19-2010, 01:21 PM
"Anyway, in a real confrontation, if the opponent gets your center, you are not getting it back... you are probably dead or unconscious. But that has little to do with practice on the mat"

Ledyard Sensei, could you explain this? One of my issues with most aikido I've seen is that this issue is not addressed...recovering when you lose your center.

Regards,
Asim

This stuff is really all about atemi. The true martial application of these principles in a serious violent encounter will demolish the attacker. Every technique that we do is a strike we are "choosing" not to do. If those strikes become explicit rather than implicit as they are in practice, the result is destructive. The purpose of kuzushi isn't necessarily to set up a throw... it can be to simply disrupt the opponent's center enough that when you throw your strike(s), the opponent cannot defend nor will he be able to effectively move the energy of the strike to prevent injury. In most instances, unless the opponent is very skilled, kuzushi has the benefit of creating tension in the opponent. If you strike them when they are tense, your strikes have far more effect than if their structure was integrated.

If anyone thinks that ikkyo, nikkyo, sankyo, yonkyo have much to do with fighting, they don't understand what is being practiced in this art.

Michael Varin
10-19-2010, 06:27 PM
If anyone thinks that ikkyo, nikkyo, sankyo, yonkyo have much to do with fighting, they don't understand what is being practiced in this art.

Hmm? Interesting.

I would be inclined to make almost exactly the opposite statement.

Please, explain your statement, and where you believe those techniques come from and what their usefulness is.

gregstec
10-19-2010, 06:52 PM
This is kaeshi waza at our school.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i02Mkq0yrsE

This video was shot almost 3 years ago. It's a light exercise. Muscular resistance is discouraged. There are no explanations, and no contrived what ifs. What you see are guys actually trying to apply and counter techniques when they naturally arise.

Takemusu; spontaneous reaction to spontaneous reaction - it does not look choreographed because it is not - it is a simple natural exercise and it is not supposed to look pretty - but it is a very effective exercise to develop your natural reaction to a force, etc. - nice job guys!

As far as George's video, it is an instructional piece and not an exercise or demonstration, so there will be a non-natural flow to it. From his slow and precise explanation of the different aspects of the reversal technique, I can see how it can all come together in a real attack - good presentation on that part George - thanks.

Greg

danj
10-19-2010, 07:25 PM
If anyone thinks that ikkyo, nikkyo, sankyo, yonkyo have much to do with fighting, they don't understand what is being practiced in this art.

Nice!

Some teachers have suggested the bunkai of aikido kata is the manipulation of ma-ai through taisabaki and timing that sets up shapes in uke that look like the afore mentioned techniques and might even finish in these locks.

Love to hear your view

dan

George S. Ledyard
10-19-2010, 10:39 PM
Hmm? Interesting.

I would be inclined to make almost exactly the opposite statement.

Please, explain your statement, and where you believe those techniques come from and what their usefulness is.

As Ellis Amdur suggests in his book, Hidden in Plain Sight, one thought is that these locking techniques were put together by O-Sensei as a form of conditioning for the body to prepare it to better generate internal power.

I am not saying that these techniques, or at least some of them, might not have some self defense application. Variants of these techniques are used all the time by well trained law enforcement personnel. However, the thing to remember is that typically the police are not dealing with trained fighters but rather not very sophisticated criminals off the street.

Could anyone honestly think that if two Shihan level Aikido practitioners got in a fight, someone is going to win using one of these kihon waza in a form that looks anything like what we do in a dojo?

Years ago, when I did some koryu training under Ellis Amdur Sensei, he made a comment about some basics in one of these styles. he told us that it wasn't as if we studied these techniques with the expectation that we would use them to defeat an opponent. The practice was really to develop an understanding of how these basics worked so no one could do them on us.

These techniques originally had different origins... Ikkyo had to do with sword taking. Sankyo was a knife defense technique. Nikkyo occurs most naturally and easily as a weapons retention technique, etc. However, as nearly as I can tell, in their original form there was simply no execution without first applying atemi. In extreme situations, the atemi alone would be the technique. Shioda's story of being cornered in Shanghai during the war by some Chinese intent on killing them is illustrative... the first guy through the door got a broken bottle in the face and the second guy threw a kick and Shioda broke his leg. That's all atemi waza.

Jason DeLucia is an mma fighter with the strongest Aikido background. I have a very nice set of dvds devoted to application of various Aikido techniques in an mma setting. But if you watch his competitions against other professionals, the essential techniques of Aikido are no where to be seen. That's because you generally can't pull them off against another professional.

Anyway, you can see the versions of these techniques in aikijutsu from which our Aikido techniques derived and they had very specialized applications, almost always involving weapons, since the samurai were pretty much ALWAYS armed.

It would be my belief that these techniques, in their kihon form, were for O-Sensei, different variations of physically describing what he saw as the essential movements and energies of the universe, William Gleason Sensei does some good explanation of this in his second book, Aikido and Words of Power: The Sacred Sounds of the Kototama in which he shows how various Aikido techniques embody certain energetic principles of the kototama.

Anyway, all this is just my opinion... it's fine with me if folks believe exactly the opposite. But I would suggest trying it out. If you can find someone who has an equivalent level of skill in karate or wing chun, muy thai or whatever, someone not an Aikido practitioner, and see if you can get any of these basic Aikido techniques on him. If you can do so without getting knocked out, you know something I don't know... which is certainty possible. Many people know all sorts of things I do not.

Michael Varin
10-20-2010, 03:13 AM
These techniques originally had different origins... Ikkyo had to do with sword taking. Sankyo was a knife defense technique. Nikkyo occurs most naturally and easily as a weapons retention technique, etc.


Jason DeLucia is an mma fighter with the strongest Aikido background. I have a very nice set of dvds devoted to application of various Aikido techniques in an mma setting. But if you watch his competitions against other professionals, the essential techniques of Aikido are no where to be seen.


they had very specialized applications, almost always involving weapons, since the samurai were pretty much ALWAYS armed.


But I would suggest trying it out. If you can find someone who has an equivalent level of skill in karate or wing chun, muy thai or whatever, someone not an Aikido practitioner, and see if you can get any of these basic Aikido techniques on him. If you can do so without getting knocked out, you know something I don't know... Once again, HIPS…

What if we place our martial artists in a weapon engagement? What would it look like? What situations might occur?

How many of their techniques would work for a muay thai, or a wrestler against an opponent armed with a sword? How many of their techniques would a muay thai or a wrestler use if they were armed with a sword?

AsimHanif
10-20-2010, 07:43 AM
GL:"If anyone thinks that ikkyo, nikkyo, sankyo, yonkyo have much to do with fighting, they don't understand what is being practiced in this art."

I agree that ikkyo, nikkyo, etc teach principles and are not techniques to use verbatim in a conflict (for the most part).
Also I'm a big believer that if I'm in striking distance, I'm in throwing distance and vice versa.

But my point was that when nage or uke lose center that doesn't mean they can't recover. I don't see this addressed much in most dojo. In a conflict, things don't go as planned and will not be as clean as usually practiced in a dojo setting. The ground ain't a bad place to be….at least in a one on one situation.
And even if I would agree that it's all about atemi, experience has shown that one strike often is not enough. And how much aikido training is devoted to properly striking? It's great if it works out that way, but….
Thanks.
AH

ewolput
10-20-2010, 07:54 AM
Interesting discussion here, if we replace the technical terms by Tomiki's terminology we are discussing in that case how to come from simple basic techniques to sparring. In Tomiki's randori we are using a lot of atemi, not to knock down someone, but as a tool to throw someone. Kaeshi waza is possible on techniques which are not done perfect. This is the case of George Ledyard.
In a videoclip of Takeshi Inoue http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cr7zLwiWhdg we can seen many kaeshi waza. This kind of randori is called hikitate geiko which is a flexible randori style.

Eddy Wolput
www.shobukai.be

raul rodrigo
10-20-2010, 10:49 AM
I suppose that what I would have wanted to see in the video was a situation where George's partner really went after his center with a waza, it doesn't matter which one, and then was satisfied, if only momentarily, that the waza was on track---only to find that G was able to absorb the force and would come back at him with the reversal. What I think I see here is a waza that never began to bite. And so it does seem odd to me to call it a reversal.

Sacrifice throws, to my mind, would be one kind of waza that would be closer to this definition of reversal.

Now I understand that there are limitations imposed by the teaching format, so this particular clip is fine for me, as far as it goes. I am hoping that in the rest of the DVD or in future DVDs, there would be other scenarios/examples of a more energetic exchange between tori and uke.

George S. Ledyard
10-20-2010, 12:23 PM
I suppose that what I would have wanted to see in the video was a situation where George's partner really went after his center with a waza, it doesn't matter which one, and then was satisfied, if only momentarily, that the waza was on track---only to find that G was able to absorb the force and would come back at him with the reversal. What I think I see here is a waza that never began to bite. And so it does seem odd to me to call it a reversal.

Sacrifice throws, to my mind, would be one kind of waza that would be closer to this definition of reversal.

Now I understand that there are limitations imposed by the teaching format, so this particular clip is fine for me, as far as it goes. I am hoping that in the rest of the DVD or in future DVDs, there would be other scenarios/examples of a more energetic exchange between tori and uke.

Ok, I need to explain this again. His technique didn't "bite" because I was "inside" his power before he could take my center. It looks like he wasn't trying, I know. That is not what is really happening. If you have had a chance to take ukemi from someone who is really high level, you'd have had the feeling that, no matter what you do, you never feel like you did a good attack. The nage is messing with you long before contact is made.

This is much the same. By the time nage touched me, it was already mine. This has a lot to do with the fact that there was no break in connection after I had "target lock on" and initiated the attack, in this case the tsuki, and when nage avoided the attack and grabbed my wrist. The instant he touched me he was part of a back flow that went "inside" his power from my center.

This clip was just a sample filmed when I was teaching a class to some folks who are already quite familiar with these principles. So little explanation of the "how to" sort was required. It was more how to apply principles they already understood in the role of nage to the role of uke. The material on the first Kaeshiwaza DVD set I've done has a bit more "how to" but states on the cover that a familiarity of the material covered in several of the earlier videos I've done. Skipping straight to the kaeshiwaza material won't make much sense to folks without that knowledge.

Let me say that looking at kaeshiwaza as how one recovers from having the other guy take ones center is only a rudimentary understanding of the concept. A really skilled opponent will not let you recover once he's got you. Even a sacrifice throw demands some mistake or opening on the part of nage. If he doesn't give you that, he has you.

The real goal is to never lose your center in the first place. A real counter takes place the instant the nage puts his hands on you. So you won't see anything that looks like a good developing technique because it never gets to develop, it's gone in the instant he touches me.

There has been a lot of discussion of "internal power" on this forum. Dan H has talked at length about developing the structure to be "unthrowable". Well, it's not about just not being throwable because your structure is so immovable... you still have to strike or throw the opponent. Now I don't have anything more than the most basic idea of how to use my internal structure the way the real internal power guys like Mike S and Dan H can. That's something I am currently working on. So I don't have anywhere near the power they have. But even with the little I have done, it's not so easy to break my balance, even when I am moving. You are sure not going to do it by torquing on my wrist, which is the level of most people's kotegaeshi.

What I am doing here would qualify as "power neutralization" which is a related but separate issue from "internal skills" and can be done using methods that are subtle but still technically would be considered external power, simply because of the way I am generating the movement.

Anyway, perhaps Ikeda Sensei is right that you have to feel it before it makes any sense. Like all really good technique, it looks fake until you get to feel it. That certainly is my own goal... I want to have a level of technique that looks completely fake to someone watching and which is somewhat incomprehensible, and therefore un-counterable to my opponent. I want him wondering after that fact, why he fell down at all.

NagaBaba
10-20-2010, 01:01 PM
The video I just released on Kaeshiwaza is entitled The Principles of Kaeshiwaza and is focused on just that, the principles behind a reversal. When I do Volume 2 it will basically be a presentation of a number of kaeshiwaza done from various Kihon Waza. There will be less discussion of principle and more techniques shown. I will put clips on-line when I film that one so as to not bore you as completely as I have so far.

I'm still a bit confused after reading your explanations. It was very clear to me from the beginning that with your level and experience, attacker can't do any technique if you not allow him. It is very surprising that you mention something about ' contest' and 'real confrontation'? I'm not sure where you are coming from... I didn't mention any of such stupid ideas. I believe such ideas have nothing to do with our discussion.

This DVD is supposed to be a teaching tool. Who is targeted audience? Other 6th dans? Advanced aikidoka? Everybody? Depending of the targeted audience the presentation must be completely different.

My working assumption is that you targeted everybody. So it is very clear that you should allow for less experienced attacker to take your balance (partially or completely), so customer can see how to execute kaeshi waza from such position. Why it is very important? You are high level aikidoka, but your customers are mostly far less experienced then yourself, so they are not able to preserve their balance in the first moment of the contact with skillful attack. They will fall down sooner or later, but it is simple to present how to recover from different unbalancing in order to counter a technique. These are basic biomechanical skills.

Next point is dealing with teaching by principles. From the clip it is not at all clear what principles you are using to counter a technique. The customer should see step by step demonstration for every used principle in some kind of separate frame. Because of the nature of principles, you also should be able to demonstrate the same principles against other kind of attacks and in different kaeshi waza. Otherwise you can't call it principles. I hope it is a case in this DVD.

I also don’t really understand (looks like I'm a bit slow LOL) your discussion about atemi in the context of kaeshi waza. Generally speaking, kaeshi waza is possible when there is a opening in the technique. With atemi or without atemi, if there is no opening no kaeshi waza is possible. Also, both aikidoka are trying create opening (with atemi or without), not only one who is trying kaeshi waza. If both start to hit atemi only, it becomes boxing and not aikido anymore. So I don't see a point discussing here atemi.

MM
10-20-2010, 01:12 PM
I'm still a bit confused after reading your explanations.

I had no problems understanding George's explanations. Perhaps if you bought the DVD and watched it completely you could get more answers to your questions and confusion? It seems to me that you're trying to judge the whole DVD by a very small sample video without researching exactly what George is presenting. My opinion, anyway.

Mark

Demetrio Cereijo
10-20-2010, 01:23 PM
So is it a DVD about kaeshi waza for people who has "the IHTBF"?

AsimHanif
10-20-2010, 01:30 PM
I agree Ledyard Sensei…some things are hard to convey digitally. It has to be felt since we are dealing with subtleties.
But I do try to train in keeping your center even when you lose your balance.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n21usSaXlYU
In this clip I chose to take over early in the technique but I also like to train to feel what can happen further down the line. In order to practice this you have to actually commit to the attack and have your balance compromised. But it is just one method.
Thank you for your contributions.
AH

George S. Ledyard
10-20-2010, 01:48 PM
I had no problems understanding George's explanations. Perhaps if you bought the DVD and watched it completely you could get more answers to your questions and confusion? It seems to me that you're trying to judge the whole DVD by a very small sample video without researching exactly what George is presenting. My opinion, anyway.

Mark

Thanks Mark,
Actually this clip wasn't even from the current DVD but was simply some material that will be going in to Vol which will come out in the future. My terminology is an eclectic mix of concepts I got from Ikeda Sensei, Ushiro Sensei, Gleason Sensei, Dan H Sensei, Don Angier Sensei, Toby Threadgill Sensei and some others. Everyone has a different set of terms they use to describe what they do dep[ending on their backgrounds. The Chinese have the most highly developed set of terms for the internal power principles but I didn't have much of a background in that. So I have a mish mash of terms that I use but am very consistent about how I use them. So if someone is familiar with either my teaching or the instruction given by many of the folks I have trained with, they should be able to understand what I am talking about.

Folks who haven't done any of this kind of training won't understand the terminology because it refers to things you have to "feel" first, before the terms have much meaning to you. There are a variety of folks up here on the forums who have the background to see what I am doing, regardles of how they view the skill level of my doing it. Many of these folks have actually trained with me and have felt what I am talking about, others, like yourslef have done training with other folks who are operating using many of the same principles... For instance, anyone who has trained extensively with Endo Sensei would have some idea what I am doing even if Endo Sensei doesn't explain what he is doing the same way. It's the same set of principles.

Anyway, we have reached the limit of what can be explained (in this limited space with the time I have) without "showing" and "feeling". Folks who are interested can get my earlier DVDs or those Ikeda Sensei sells at his seminars by Ushiro Sensei or Ikeda Sensei himself and see fairly detailed explanations of the principles behind what I am doing. Or, show up at one of the seminars I do all over the place and I'll explain it in person. It's not like I am hard to find...

My Schedule (http://www.aikieast.com/teaching_schedule.html)

Folks who don't understand what is going on, which I understand as it has only been fairly recently that I have had a clue, can either go out of their way to find help or not. Folks who are entirely happy with what they know and how they do it are fully entitled to ignore all of this stuff. It's just what I am working on.

A few years ago, one of my friends, a very senior student of Saotome Sensei with close to forty years of training went to sleep and didn't wake up the next morning. Aside from the sadness of having a friend pass away, I was shocked to realize that his experience was lost to us. Not that many people had actually ever even done a class with him and now the opportunity was lost forever. Rather like an endangered species going extinct. So I determined that I would document whatever I've figured out, as I go. If I were to pass away tomorrow, what I currently understand is out there, virtually all over the world. So aside from the fact that my videos pay for my training and Fed Taxes, they are a way to ensure some sort of transmission and ensure that what I have learned gets passed on somehow. So I don't have a problem posting a clip of something I am working on out of context... people will simply see what they are prepared at the time to see. That's fine. It's just a "teaser" really. Someone wil look at it and say "I want to be able to do that"... then they will take some sort of action. It might not even be doing anything with me... that's fie. Those who look at it and think it's BS will do nothing about it and no one is worse off than before, so that's cool too.

Russ Q
10-20-2010, 02:58 PM
A few years ago, one of my friends, a very senior student of Saotome Sensei with close to forty years of training went to sleep and didn't wake up the next morning. Aside from the sadness of having a friend pass away, I was shocked to realize that his experience was lost to us. Not that many people had actually ever even done a class with him and now the opportunity was lost forever. Rather like an endangered species going extinct. So I determined that I would document whatever I've figured out, as I go. If I were to pass away tomorrow, what I currently understand is out there, virtually all over the world.

Thank you. This is an important service to the aikido community. Living where I do, I often find myself looking at on line videos and taking what I can use with me to class that night.

Cheers,

Russ

George S. Ledyard
10-20-2010, 04:03 PM
I also don't really understand (looks like I'm a bit slow LOL) your discussion about atemi in the context of kaeshi waza. Generally speaking, kaeshi waza is possible when there is a opening in the technique. With atemi or without atemi, if there is no opening no kaeshi waza is possible. Also, both aikidoka are trying create opening (with atemi or without), not only one who is trying kaeshi waza. If both start to hit atemi only, it becomes boxing and not aikido anymore. So I don't see a point discussing here atemi.

My discussion of atemi waza in the context of kaeshiwaza is completely the point... Once you start having an uke / nage relationship in which BOTH people have these skills, you realize that as long as the uke is centered and connected, you aren't going to throw him. The same channels you are using to connect to him, he is connecting to you. Most Aikido is not done this way. We strive for sophisticated technique against folks who exhibit no understanding of the skills we use as nage when they are in the role of uke.

If you want to have a technique that cannot be reversed, it requires that you disrupt the connection which uke has to your center while maintaining your own connection to his center. The predominant way this is done is via atemi. The purpose of the atemi is to put the attacker "out of phase" with you so he is unable to redirect the energy of the technique when it is applied. (More correctly, it is to prevent him from "getting inside" the technique with his own energy so as to redirect it.)

Normal Aikido practice is the study of this connection, Both PARTNERS are attempting to maintain that connection throughout the interaction. When the interaction is no longer a practice but rather a true violent encounter, between opponents who both have skills, you don't want "awase" or matching. You want the other guy behind yours in his timing. The way to do this is to "cut his ki" (I don't remember the Japanese for this term but there is one). This is the primary purpose of atemi in Aikido. Any understanding of how one can execute reversals brings one back to the conclusion that martial application of technique against a skilled opponent requires the use of atemi.

Now, if you have far more skills than the guy you are fighting, then perhaps you can dispense with the atemi. But leave it out with a really skilled attacker and you are going to be the one taking the fall. Once again, just my opinion. Folks can feel free to agree or not. It's your own Aikido, not anyone else's, everyone needs to decide for himself. But try it... find the best uke you know and give him some good training in kaeshiwaza and then try to do technique on him when he not only has permission to reverse you, but is operating under an imperative to do so.

Michael Varin
10-21-2010, 01:53 AM
We strive for sophisticated technique against folks who exhibit no understanding of the skills we use as nage when they are in the role of uke.Is this really true? Or do the attacks of aikido actually represent the best choice, and the biggest threat, in certain circumstances?

find the best uke you know and give him some good training in kaeshiwaza and then try to do technique on him when he not only has permission to reverse you, but is operating under an imperative to do so.This really is the key. But why do we waste so much time going down paths that lead nowhere and are founded in utter nonsense?

And because they were left so neatly untouched, I repost my questions in response to George Ledyard's words. Aikidoists would do well to consider them. The answers can clear up a great deal of confusion.

These techniques originally had different origins... Ikkyo had to do with sword taking. Sankyo was a knife defense technique. Nikkyo occurs most naturally and easily as a weapons retention technique, etc.


Jason DeLucia is an mma fighter with the strongest Aikido background. I have a very nice set of dvds devoted to application of various Aikido techniques in an mma setting. But if you watch his competitions against other professionals, the essential techniques of Aikido are no where to be seen.


they had very specialized applications, almost always involving weapons, since the samurai were pretty much ALWAYS armed.


But I would suggest trying it out. If you can find someone who has an equivalent level of skill in karate or wing chun, muy thai or whatever, someone not an Aikido practitioner, and see if you can get any of these basic Aikido techniques on him. If you can do so without getting knocked out, you know something I don't know...
Once again, HIPS…

What if we place our martial artists in a weapon engagement? What would it look like? What situations might occur?

How many of their techniques would work for a muay thai, or a wrestler against an opponent armed with a sword? How many of their techniques would a muay thai or a wrestler use if they were armed with a sword?

raul rodrigo
10-21-2010, 09:51 AM
The curious thing about Endo's body method is that he lets the uke "in." (In one DVD sequence, I think from Atari and Musubi, he brings down an uke who is pushing on his forehead and asks: "Did you see me let him in?") He can take control of uke from all sorts of strange compromised positions: both hands held up horizontally behind him, or one hand held in yonkyo position, elbow high in the air, or uke is pushing on his shoulder and he lets the push come in, to the point that uke thinks he has broken through, but actually Endo has brought uke in to the point that he has no more power, and then Endo cames back at him with the shoulder.

His body method isn't about impenetrability. The two centers communicate to one another continually. When uke is fixated on a particular direction, say with coming up against an ikkyo, Endo lets him go up ("releases" is the word in the subtitle), and then bounces him down again.

Endo's teacher Yamaguchi was known for leaving openings in his waza, and expecting uke to try to take advantage of them. Of course, if they did, Yamaguchi would turn out to be waiting for them at the other end with another waza.

AsimHanif
10-21-2010, 10:09 AM
I agree Rodrigo. Endo Sensei has complete control of his structure and doesn't oppose what you (uke) think you control. He does invite you in then manipulates his body to stay connected and redirect what he feels. Its totally ad lib which I appreciate. I don't think he is concerned with being 'immovable'. I think (again) his approach is about freedom of movement mentally and physically.
AH

Fred Little
10-21-2010, 11:14 AM
Dear Dr. Sagan:

I just viewed several very short snippets from your PBS series "Cosmos," and have to tell you that your approach to teaching cosmology and physics is absolutely useless.

First, it is essential for prospective physicists to completely understand fundamentals. How can a beginner understand the import of "billions and billions of light-years" without a basic understanding of Newton's Philosophić Naturalis Principia Mathematica? Absent a foundation of this kind, understanding of the revolutionary nature of Special and General Relativity is totally impossible. Of course, this means that beginners must start with Latin, and we both know that there are very few students serious enough to do this, but basics are basics, and I know we both agree on this point, not least because Latin will also help students understand Galileo's Sidereus Nuncius, and relevant Church documents necessary to understand that the Church never forbade the discussion of his heliocentric hypothesis as hypothesis as claimed by some vile-anti-Papist slanderers.

Sure, you could take a more empirical approach, like Feynman did when investigating the Challenger disaster, and maybe that is what you are trying to do. Please note that Feynman did not pretend that room temperature water was ice water in his on-camera demonstration of O-ring failure. Feynman insisted on real ice water, so he could show genuine shrinkage of O-ring material. Sure, it was so small that it was invisible on camera, and the viewers had to take his word for it, but at least his demonstration had some scientific integrity, unlike the totally fake special effects included in the sample clips of your series.

I could go on with additional examples, but I think that this would take far too much time and I know you are a serious astrophysicist who doesn't need so many examples to understand that your approach is so imprecise and useless that you must change it to conform to my interpretation of classical and empirical ideas about education instead of using crazy approaches designed for silly children who still won't learn Latin or how to use a micrometer for accurate measurement.

I still respect your work on radio emissions from Venus and your role in proving that Venus is hot. I respect this and other achievements so much that I am deeply confused to see you doing such stupid things on PBS. But really, if you are willing to throw away serious science in order to be a talking head cosmological huckster, it is probably a waste of my time to talk with you about this, you are too far gone for me to help, but even so, I hope you will see the light and make the program I have already imagined so that I won't have to do the work. It is very difficult to find the time when stupid businesses like this deeply flawed video of yours demand so much effort and critique.

Please do not ask me any questions about my work or my teachers' works, its quality or the level of quality of the lab technicians working for us, or our unwillingness to submit our results to peer review, this is a total distraction from the problems we see in your video, which is the only proper topic of discussion at this time.

PS: You suck. Get a clue.

Sincerely,

Steven Hurling

jonreading
10-21-2010, 11:46 AM
Good video.

Ultimately I believe our training should consist of a competent uke attacking a competent nage. I think we have far too many uke who fall or wait to be thrown and true kaeshi waza is something that is not achieved regularly in class. I think we are more used to seeing struggle from poorly chosen uke waza than relaxed defeat from uke recognizing the lack of suki to continue launching an attack. Uke needs to let go of defeat and re-establish a better position.

Ledyard Sensei being among many whom I have "attacked" in the sense a verbal command asked me to do something that every part of my body said "are you crazy?" I think a real component of aiki is a defense that presents no openings and an offense that is smart enough to realize when that battle is lost to move onto the next. The friction of a conscious decision to change interaction is sufficient to delay timing beyond the window of opportunity in which kaeshi waza exists. But I also think kaeshi waza at its highest level (non-conscious movement) is the aiki exchange we strive to achieve.

I think that, when one starts to really understand connection, the result is an understanding of why there was atemi in every technique in the old days. You have to disrupt the opponent's ability to maintain his connection to you while you stay connected to him. The way to do that is to put him "out of phase" with you via the atemi. In practice this can be simply getting him to react to an atemi. In fighting you break something. Either way, it breaks the connection the partner has with your center, at least for a moment, and puts him out of sync so he can't adjust to what you are doing.

In the end, it's kaeshiwaza that gives you an understanding why it was said that Aikido is 90% atemi.

I have seen this concept start to emerge and I am wholly impressed by the simplicity of the statement and its accuracy.

Howard Popkin
10-21-2010, 04:00 PM
When you want to move someone, you have 3 choices -
1) Ask them nicely to move
2) Break their balance
3) Hit them ( to break their balance)

Just because you didn't see it, doesn't mean it didn't happen.
:D

Howard

niall
10-21-2010, 06:11 PM
4.Make them want to move. The warm sun got the man to take off his overcoat, not the cold north wind.

aikidoc
10-21-2010, 08:10 PM
A real counter takes place the instant the nage puts his hands on you. So you won't see anything that looks like a good developing technique because it never gets to develop, it's gone in the instant he touches me.

That's what my sensei (Kato) says. The technique is taken away at the point of initial contact. He humors some of us and lets us do our version but we usually get a raised eyebrow.

Jon Marshall
10-23-2010, 04:36 AM
Hi George,

I've read and enjoyed your ideas on atemi before, but have never really considered the relationship between atemi and kuzushi, so this is an interesting subject for me.

Some questions, if I may:
1. Are you suggesting that these "cross-over points" are good insertion points for atemi?
2. Do you think we should be putting more atemi (to get a reaction rather than to necessarily make contact) back into our practice to help us learn both how to atemi and where the crossover points are?
3. Do you think that some sort of supplementary practice is necessary for aikidoka to get better at atemi (actually making contact and being able to hit hard)? If so, what?

Sorry to drag out a thread you might have thought you were finished with, but, at the risk of being sycophantic, you are one of the sensei whose opinions I look out for.

I found this quote particularly interesting.

If anyone thinks that ikkyo, nikkyo, sankyo, yonkyo have much to do with fighting, they don't understand what is being practiced in this art.

I have come across the idea of ikkyo, nikkyo, sankyo relating to straight, hook, and uppercut, as exemplified by Kuroiwa Sensei (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vyxbvg4fJ-M). Is this the sort of thing you mean?

I'll stop bombarding you with questions now.

Thanks,
Jon

George S. Ledyard
10-24-2010, 01:34 AM
Hi George,

I've read and enjoyed your ideas on atemi before, but have never really considered the relationship between atemi and kuzushi, so this is an interesting subject for me.

Some questions, if I may:
1. Are you suggesting that these "cross-over points" are good insertion points for atemi?
2. Do you think we should be putting more atemi (to get a reaction rather than to necessarily make contact) back into our practice to help us learn both how to atemi and where the crossover points are?
3. Do you think that some sort of supplementary practice is necessary for aikidoka to get better at atemi (actually making contact and being able to hit hard)? If so, what?

Sorry to drag out a thread you might have thought you were finished with, but, at the risk of being sycophantic, you are one of the sensei whose opinions I look out for.

I found this quote particularly interesting.

I have come across the idea of ikkyo, nikkyo, sankyo relating to straight, hook, and uppercut, as exemplified by Kuroiwa Sensei (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vyxbvg4fJ-M). Is this the sort of thing you mean?

I'll stop bombarding you with questions now.

Thanks,
Jon

No Jon, the so-called cross-over points are completely different issues than the points at which you would throw an atemi, if necessary. It's possible that they might be the same point in the technique but not necessarily.

Kuroiwa Sensei's "boxing" related movements were simply ways of running the energy of a connection such as katatetori using standard boxing punching movements. These movements as used to move a partner were not functioning as strikes but rather were strikes in a different context but in Aikido waza were simply efficient ways to run the spirals that move a partner / opponent.

More atemi waza is not necessarily a good thing in Aikido practice. Notice I say "practice". As a trans-formative art, Aikido is the study of "connection" both mental and physical. Folks who over use atemi typically do so to make it hard for an opponent to counter them. But in practice we are striving to develop ourselves and our spirits to the point at which no perceived separation exists. Atemi waza can serve to act as a crutch allowing for bad connection or lack of "aiki" in ones technique. Your stuff doesn't work so you "bop" the other guy...

No, most atemi in what I do is "implicit" rather than "explicit". The ukes are taught not to take the kind of ukemi that makes it necessary to make the atemi "explicit". I am not saying "collude" with the partner when taking ukemi, but I am saying don't turn the interaction in to a contest or the atemi will be right there.

Now, if you are one of those folks who insists on making Aikido be about street self defense or some imagined encounter with another accomplished martial practitioner, then you should be putting the atemi in on every technique. If you look at O-Sensei's "Aiki-Budo" from the thirties, there was a devastating atemi of some sort on EVERY entry. That disappears after the war in normal practice where the goal is to achieve kuzushi at the moment of contact via "aiki" or Connection. There is a film of Saito Sensei I have somewhere in which he takes a number of kihon waza and shows where all the atemi are. Some techniques have as many as five atemi possibilities. But you can't do all of them or even any of them sometimes and have the "flow" of movement and connection for which Aikido is famous. In fighting you don't care about this, you just need to survive but training is misogi and is really about something else entirely. That's my belief and I am sticking to it although I know there are a number of folks here on eh forum who think quite differently.

Jon Marshall
10-24-2010, 11:39 AM
Thanks George,

I shall reflect on all that and experiment accordingly. No I'm not fixated on self-defence, but I do find that if I stray too far from such practicalities then I become less clear on just what it is that I'm practising. I love aikido practice for its own sake, but I guess my vision of aikido as misogi is as strong or clear as yours.

Thanks again,
Jon

Jon Marshall
10-24-2010, 02:46 PM
I love aikido practice for its own sake, but I guess my vision of aikido as misogi is as strong or clear as yours.

Oops, I meant "is not".

Jon

Anthony Loeppert
10-26-2010, 11:17 PM
The whole point about nage being bigger than Tori is irrelevant IMO. An instructional video should illustrate mechanics clearly.

I disagree... height and strength should be irrelevant but sensei possesses much more 'center' and as we all know the Aikido 101 syllabus states power comes from the center... clearly uke (opps Yoshinkan terminology coming out) is out matched.

<knock knock> is this thing on... I'll be here all week folks... :)