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rnrobles
10-05-2010, 10:56 AM
I am new to Aikido and have a question about bowing before and after class with clapping.

I train in a USAF dojo. We do not clap when we formally bow in and out. I've visited other dojos in the area, that are not USAF and some do clap as part of their formal bow.

I noticed that at Doshu's recent seminar in Montreal that he didn't clap.

I've never been to Japan, yet.
Do they clap in Hombu dojo Japan?

Thanks.
Rey

:ai: :ki:

Gorgeous George
10-05-2010, 11:26 AM
I am new to Aikido and have a question about bowing before and after class with clapping.

I train in a USAF dojo. We do not clap when we formally bow in and out. I've visited other dojos in the area, that are not USAF and some do clap as part of their formal bow.

I noticed that at Doshu's recent seminar in Montreal that he didn't clap.

I've never been to Japan, yet.
Do they clap in Hombu dojo Japan?

Thanks.
Rey

:ai: :ki:

I don't think they do; and in all the Aikikai dojos i've been to, there is no clapping.

Some people don't even bow:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18723

raul rodrigo
10-05-2010, 08:12 PM
No, they don't clap at Hombu Dojo.

WilliB
10-06-2010, 01:19 AM
I've never been to Japan, yet.
Do they clap in Hombu dojo Japan?


Nope they don´t. (Not in the regular class, anyway. I don´t go there often, so I don´t know what happens at special event.)

I can see how religionists can have a problem with clapping though -- more legitimately that with bowing. Calling on Shinto gods is certainly a more religious act than showing respect to other people.

Hellis
10-06-2010, 03:23 AM
I have never been in a Aikido dojo where they don't bow.

I have though wondered about the clapping ritual. I never saw this with the early teachers such as Kenshiro Abbe and Nakazono Sensei, it is something we have never done.
Is this a recent introduction, say in the last 10 / 15 years ??

Henry Ellis
http://kenshiroabbe.blogspot.com/

Demetrio Cereijo
10-06-2010, 03:46 AM
I have though wondered about the clapping ritual. I never saw this with the early teachers such as Kenshiro Abbe and Nakazono Sensei, it is something we have never done.
Is this a recent introduction, say in the last 10 / 15 years ??


Not so recent:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzuH43NwIxI

Dazzler
10-06-2010, 04:40 AM
We do it !

Its a fairly recent introduction for us No idea why we started though.

Trained for about 15 years without it quite happily...been doing it for about 3 or 4 years equally happily.

I really like it as it seems to focus students and get any wandering minds on the job in hand...and where there are others in the dojo its a great reminder that there is a class in progress...so please shut up.

This is of particular benefit in kids / teenagers classes where a lot of parents sit on the side.

Other than that I really have no strong feelings either way.

I'll ask my instructor why he started it...perhaps its on a Steven Segal film and he though it looked cool:)

Cheers

D

Demetrio Cereijo
10-06-2010, 05:36 AM
I'll ask my instructor why he started it...perhaps its on a Steven Segal film and he though it looked cool:)

Kashiwade surely has been introduced in aikido by Seagal sensei films... :rolleyes:

Flintstone
10-06-2010, 05:51 AM
I can see how religionists can have a problem with clapping though -- more legitimately that with bowing. Calling on Shinto gods is certainly a more religious act than showing respect to other people.
And here we go again. Why is that not clapping is more legitimate than not bowing? Is that that white people religion is more legitimate than other people's? And... why is this allowed in aikiweb now and then?

Also, you seem to imply (again) that some faiths don't know about "respect to other people" just because they show it differently. Oh, prejudices... so nice!

Dazzler
10-06-2010, 05:56 AM
And here we go again. Why is that not clapping is more legitimate than nor bowing? Is that that white people religion is more legitimate than other people? And... why is this allowed in aikiweb now and then?

Also, you seem to imply (again) that some faiths don't know about "respect to other people" just because they show it differently. Oh, prejudices... so nice!

mountain.....molehill.

lbb
10-06-2010, 06:03 AM
mountain.....molehill.

So who's making a mountain out of a molehill, exactly?

Flintstone
10-06-2010, 06:03 AM
mountain.....molehill.
Sorry, Daren. English is not my first language and thus I'm lost at your post. Dare to put it in simple words so I can make sense of it? Thanks.

Dazzler
10-06-2010, 06:17 AM
Sorry, Daren. English is not my first language and thus I'm lost at your post. Dare to put it in simple words so I can make sense of it? Thanks.

Not particularly...based upon everything you've managed to read into Willi's post I'm tempted to let you fill in the gaps yourself.

However despite my growing reluctance to bother posting on forums since inevitably whatever is posted gets chewed up and interpreted in whatever way the reader choses anyway here goes.

I think that you are making a mountain out of a mole hill.

As your not a native english speaker this simply means you seem to be reading a lot more into what Willi has said than it actually there.

Up to Willi if he wants to expand on his post but to me I read that bowing is almost universal whereas clapping in this manner is more specifically linked to calling of shinto gods. In the context provided of course.

I can see Willi's point that this might be more of a problem than bowing for some.

I don't see it as some claim that 'white peoples religion is more legitimate' than anything else.

Hope that clarifies.

D

Dazzler
10-06-2010, 06:22 AM
So who's making a mountain out of a molehill, exactly?

At the time of my reply the person quoted within it.

If your suggesting that by replying I've committed the same offence then to a degree you are correct...and have joined me in fuelling the fire.

Perhaps no one should ever post anything to avoid this...but I suspect that would make the forum very boring indeed.

Regards

D

Flintstone
10-06-2010, 06:34 AM
As your not a native english speaker this simply means you seem to be reading a lot more into what Willi has said than it actually there.

Thanks for the clarification, Daren. But if you read Willi's posts in the thread about bowing, then you'll know why I read more than what he's writing in that one particular post, as well as my reference to "white people's religion".

I believe that Mary read the same as I did in his words.

Best.

Dazzler
10-06-2010, 07:17 AM
Thanks for the clarification, Daren. But if you read Willi's posts in the thread about bowing, then you'll know why I read more than what he's writing in that one particular post, as well as my reference to "white people's religion".

I believe that Mary read the same as I did in his words.

Best. No worries.

MM
10-06-2010, 07:41 AM
From an old 2002 thread here at Aikiweb:
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2886

The first post has a bit of info on bowing and clapping. Below is an excerpt.

I have seen a great many posting about Aikido as it pertains to Christianity, some about how Aikido is related to Zen or Buddhism, but I haven't really seen anything on Shinto practices. There are some questions posed at the end, but first I'll give a tad bit of personal experience/background info.

Recently, I've begun to train at Tsubaki Kannagara Jinjya, a shinto shrine in Washington state, under the shinto priest Koichi Barrish. (It's the U.S. branch of the Tsubaki O' Kami Yashiro in Japan, which enshrined master Ueshiba after is death. See www.kannagara.org/Quotes.htm (http://www.kannagara.org/Quotes.htm).)

Many of the "traditions" performed in Aikido dojo are actually shinto practices. As an example, I've read a couple of times on these boards about doing the 2-bows, 2-claps, 1-bow tradition, which is a part of many shinto ceremonies. When entering the shrine (after purifying our hands and mouth outside), we perform this (the bowing is to show respect for the enshrined kami, and clapping purifies the air - a remedial explanation, I'll admit...I'm no shinto expert.)



In case you're wondering about the actual Shinto practice, short video examples here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqTu1bSLUnI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AC7heZNCRn4

I'm sure there is quite a bit more information out there.

Mark

MM
10-06-2010, 07:48 AM
And here we go again. Why is that not clapping is more legitimate than not bowing? Is that that white people religion is more legitimate than other people's? And... why is this allowed in aikiweb now and then?

Also, you seem to imply (again) that some faiths don't know about "respect to other people" just because they show it differently. Oh, prejudices... so nice!

I don't have near the education or experience in this area, so take my opinion as such:

I think in this instance, there is a separation of religious overtones/undertones/etc. Bowing in dojos outside Japan, *can* have the meaning of "respect" for all people training rather than prostration or other religious meanings.

The bowing and the clapping, however, come from Shinto. While that doesn't necessarily have to be "religious" (that's a whole different thread), it does overlap into what most people think of as a religion. That's why bowing is more legitimate than clapping, in a broad sense. The former can be non-religious while the latter tends to be religious.

Mark

Flintstone
10-06-2010, 08:10 AM
Well, Mark, I do appreciate your comments and your opinion. But while it's true that bowing does not have to do with religion in the broad sense, in the particular case of Islam (or of some imans interpretations) bowing has to do with it. So, in general, yes you're right. Let this be the exception to the rule (although I'm pretty sure there are other faiths that share this point with Islam).

WilliB
10-06-2010, 08:48 AM
Thanks for the clarification, Daren. But if you read Willi's posts in the thread about bowing, then you'll know why I read more than what he's writing in that one particular post, as well as my reference to "white people's religion".

I believe that Mary read the same as I did in his words.


I never said anything about a "white people`s religion", and I find it pretty cheap that you feel you have to play the race card.

I simply said that bowing is a gesture that shows respect, while the clapping has a religious context. Myself, I have no problem clapping, but I also have no problem brinbing my local shinto god with 10 yen at years end, although I am atheist.

What exactly is a "white people`s religion", anyway?

David Orange
10-06-2010, 08:48 AM
And here we go again. Why is that not clapping is more legitimate than not bowing? Is that that white people religion is more legitimate than other people's?

Alejandro, it's really a matter of whether there's a Shinto shrine in the room. The clapping is done toward the shrine, where there would be a mirror and other Shinto implements. And in serious Shinto, the person who maintains the shrine would maintain it for a kami--a Shinto deity that would bless, protect and inspire the place and all the people in it. That's why it's called a "kamiza," meaning "seat of the god."

For a person who had put a kamiza in his dojo, it would be unthinkable to practice in front of the shrine and not invite the kami to bless and protect the practice and practitioners. The purpose of the clapping is to call the kami and invite him/her/it to attend the practice.

Of course, if there is no kamiza, there is no reason to clap. And many Japanese dojos don't have kamiza. In fact, Shinto is not appreciated to the same degree by all Japanese. Most of them will go to a big shrine at New Year or the birth of a child, but at its most extreme, it gets into hard right politics in which militarists and yakuza are eager participants. So it has a lot of political implications besides the religious ones.

Mochizuki Sensei was a way-back man and he had a kamiza in the dojo, containing a driftwood "dragon's head" in memory of Moirhei Ueshiba. As uchi-deshi, we sometimes changed out the green branches and dusted the kamiza. Our classes always began as Saito Sensei's class in the earlier-linked video clip, bowing toward the kamiza and clapping. Mochizuki Sensei also always led us in recitation of a Meiji essay called "Seikun". It was sort of political, but mostly centered on creating and maintaining a regular and harmonious personal and family life.

I always participated fully in the rituals and recited the Seikun, but I always prayed to the God of Israel and gave thanks in the name of Jesus. And I would love to sit again on that tatami and hear Mochizuki Sensei reciting Seikun.

Best to all.

David

lbb
10-06-2010, 09:13 AM
At the time of my reply the person quoted within it.

If your suggesting that by replying I've committed the same offence then to a degree you are correct...and have joined me in fuelling the fire.

Come on. You used cryptic language to make an accusation of someone; I asked you to clarify who you were talking about. How are these two equivalent?

MM
10-06-2010, 09:14 AM
Well, Mark, I do appreciate your comments and your opinion. But while it's true that bowing does not have to do with religion in the broad sense, in the particular case of Islam (or of some imans interpretations) bowing has to do with it. So, in general, yes you're right. Let this be the exception to the rule (although I'm pretty sure there are other faiths that share this point with Islam).

Yes, I agree.

When it starts getting into religious territory, things become complicated. For example, in the Baptist area, there are Baptist who don't want to dance and then there are Baptists who don't want women wearing jeans. All under one religion, broken into different sects/areas/groups.

Religion becomes too personal to categorize. As noted by other people here, some of the Islamic faith don't have a problem with bowing while some do. IMO, it's a little like what David Orange described in his post. While he went through the Shinto ritual, he was praying to the God of Israel. Some people wouldn't do the Shinto ritual because they wouldn't believe that they could substitute the kami with their God. Some of the Islamic faith view bowing as prostration which goes against their beliefs.

I really don't think (at times) that it's a matter of having an "open mind", but a matter of how much importance that person puts on their religious beliefs. As all of us, we build our house of religion, sometimes it has a lot of windows and doors and sometimes it's a narrow hallway full of personal adornment. Both examples beautiful in their splendor and full of hard work.

How do you deal with that? On an individual, case-by-case basis, trying to avoid lumping the fringe elements into decisions about the group as a whole. IMO, anyway. :)

Flintstone
10-06-2010, 09:28 AM
Mark, David, I agree with both of you. I personally like the way David puts it about bowing to the God of Israel (or Allah, who is the same, or the God of the Christians, btw). And I agree with Mark on the case-by-case basis. Me? I bow. If at Iwama Ryu's class, I clap. Whatever that means to me is only know by me. But I know some people won't and I respect that.

But I don't see the point in enforcing bowing and/or clapping that some guy defend arguing that these practices are one with Aikido.

Dazzler
10-06-2010, 09:32 AM
Come on. You used cryptic language to make an accusation of someone; I asked you to clarify who you were talking about. How are these two equivalent?

Done. Dusted.

The extrapolation by Alejandro was clearly OTT as a response to the single post by Willi.

He's now explained that this was a carry on from another thread.

You asked me to clarify who I was talking to when I'd quoted him. I'd have though it was blatantly obvious who I was talking to so had to query your response for deeper meaning.

Obviously there wasn't anything deeper - you seem to have just missed my direct reply.

As for cryptic....well - Making a mountain out of a molehill is a pretty common expression over here.

Maybe not so common for Alejandro ...but we have now cleared that up and moved on.

Care to do the same?

Demetrio Cereijo
10-06-2010, 09:32 AM
But I don't see the point in enforcing bowing and/or clapping that some guy defend arguing that these practices are one with Aikido.
These practises are Aikido, and you are a saracen.
:D

lbb
10-06-2010, 03:16 PM
Done. Dusted.

I guess "dusted" is also supposed to mean something to me. I can think of a few possibilities, but I don't much like the only ones that would fit.

Dazzler
10-06-2010, 04:27 PM
I guess "dusted" is also supposed to mean something to me. I can think of a few possibilities, but I don't much like the only ones that would fit. Well, they say we are divided by a common language.

I assure you its nothing bad.

Lan Powers
10-06-2010, 07:14 PM
Always been a personal point for me..... everyone claps at several dojos I have visited, no-one claps at ours, should I "conform", or do I allow the act to be invested with more meaning than some others give it?
It has been explained as the "calling of the Kami"
It has been explained as "gathering everyones attention"
I just sit quietly as it happens (or not) and nobody has ever had issue with me not participating.

Just one approach to the question

If you are respectful of others, and their beliefs, then it all works out ok as a rule.
Just my 2-cents

Josh Reyer
10-06-2010, 07:27 PM
Alejandro, it's really a matter of whether there's a Shinto shrine in the room. The clapping is done toward the shrine, where there would be a mirror and other Shinto implements. And in serious Shinto, the person who maintains the shrine would maintain it for a kami--a Shinto deity that would bless, protect and inspire the place and all the people in it. That's why it's called a "kamiza," meaning "seat of the god."

"Kamiza" - 上座, merely means "upper seat, seat of honor", and is purely a convention of etiquette, with no inherent religious meaning.

What you are thinking of is "kamidana" - 神棚, a miniture shrine.

There is a word that means "seat of the god" - 神座, but this is read "shinza", and refers NOT to miniture Shinto shrines in dojo and other places, but rather to the actual place where the kami is held to reside in full size Shinto shrines (jinja).

Chris Farnham
10-07-2010, 01:32 AM
The Aikikai dojos where I have seen bowing have all had some connection to Iwama. I am not sure if this is something that O Sensei added when he founded that dojo or whether he always did it and Hombu took the clapping out. Clapping at Iwama may have been done there because of its proximity to the shrine. It seems that people with Iwama lineage do it and people with hombu do not. What do Yoshinkan,Yoseikan, Tomiki, and Ki Society folks do?

mrlizard123
10-07-2010, 05:26 AM
I thought it was because we're happy and we know it...

David Orange
10-07-2010, 10:06 AM
"Kamiza" - 上座, merely means "upper seat, seat of honor", and is purely a convention of etiquette, with no inherent religious meaning.

Thanks, Joshua.

niall
10-07-2010, 11:16 AM
Of course Joshua is right for a normal room but you're right too, David. I've heard that explanation for dojos more than once. I just found this link to a Daito Ryu page in Japanese that says the same thing: kamiza can be written 上座 upper seat or 神座 seat of the god or gods (and this article uses the 神座 form).

http://www.daitouryu.com/japanese/column/hajime/col_bumon04.html

David Orange
10-07-2010, 04:11 PM
kamiza can be written 上座 upper seat or 神座 seat of the god or gods...[/url]

Interesting, Niall. Thanks to you, too.

David

Dazzler
10-08-2010, 04:29 AM
I thought it was because we're happy and we know it... ...whooosh.....:D

odudog
10-08-2010, 08:21 PM
Rey, why didn't you just ask Sakamoto Sensei to Takeguchi Sensei? I'm sure Darrell or Donna could have gotten the answer for you from them.

You could also ping me. Paul and Stella have my email address.

RED
10-09-2010, 12:01 AM
...when in Rome.

Flintstone
10-09-2010, 02:01 AM
...when in Rome.
How simplistic...

raul rodrigo
10-09-2010, 02:32 AM
How gratuitous....

niall
10-09-2010, 02:45 AM
I forgot that Masando Sasaki Sensei did the Shinto bows and clapping at the Aikikai Hombu Dojo when he used to teach there on Saturdays. He was a Shinto priest.

guest1234567
10-09-2010, 11:35 AM
Hi,
In our dojo we bow as a sign of respect to O'Sensei and our sensei, but we don't clapp.
As David wrote it is a practice in the shinto religion
You can see Hikitsuchi Michio Sensei in the Norito pray http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D__Y8-d_1b0 clapping.
The Bujinkan also use to clapp as greeting and sign of respect.

Lyle Laizure
10-09-2010, 06:47 PM
I thought it was because we're happy and we know it...

LOL love this

Lyle Laizure
10-09-2010, 06:53 PM
The bowing and clapping can represent several things, as pointed out in previous posts. I think it is important to understand why you are if it is in your home dojo. (Best to ask your sensei.) Knowing why you bow and or clap is more important. The Japanese language can be so doggone confusing for the multiple ways kanji can be interpreted. Good luck.

RED
10-09-2010, 07:19 PM
How simplistic...

It's best not to complicate what is simple, or simplify what is complicated.
Pick your battles, and keep your hands clean.

Flintstone
10-10-2010, 03:50 AM
It's best not to complicate what is simple, or simplify what is complicated.
Pick your battles, and keep your hands clean.
So your strong Christian beliefs allow you to call for the Shinto kamis to come sit and watch the class. It's ok for me, but maybe not so for your Church. It's not just a matter of "when in Rome".

oisin bourke
10-10-2010, 06:19 AM
I forgot that Masando Sasaki Sensei did the Shinto bows and clapping at the Aikikai Hombu Dojo when he used to teach there on Saturdays. He was a Shinto priest.

Did Sasaki Sensei (or anyone else) ever talk about the hand positions during clapping as per the Hikitsuchi video clip? Any other comments about hand positions welcome!

Demetrio Cereijo
10-10-2010, 08:47 AM
So your strong Christian beliefs allow you to call for the Shinto kamis to come sit and watch the class.

If they only watch and don't participate I don't see the problem. However, if Futsunushi no kami asks for some wrist grabbing...

niall
10-10-2010, 09:39 AM
Sorry Oisin, I don't remember any explanations about hands. Also the Manseikan dojos in Kyushu did the Shinto bow with clapping I remember.

RED
10-10-2010, 01:48 PM
So your strong Christian beliefs allow you to call for the Shinto kamis to come sit and watch the class. It's ok for me, but maybe not so for your Church. It's not just a matter of "when in Rome".

Man your blood pressure must be out the window :p
Always freakin' out about stuff that doesn't matter, and doesn't have actual impact upon your life.

Flintstone
10-10-2010, 02:11 PM
Man your blood pressure must be out the window :p
Always freakin' out about stuff that doesn't matter, and doesn't have actual impact upon your life.
My blood pressure is more than fine, thank you.

Did you freak out because of my mention of your own beliefs?

That stuff really doesn't matter to you, but... to others?

It doesn't have an actual impact upon my life? How gratuitous!

niall
10-10-2010, 09:30 PM
Alejandro it is one thing to attack what you see as racism which you did in the other thread and which is justifiable and understandable (and of course other people have the right to put other points of view).

But in this thread one person made a reasonable and relevant remark. Pithy even! I don't speak Spanish but the latin is: Si fueris Rōmae, Rōmānō vīvitō mōre; si fueris alibī, vīvitō sicut ibi. When in Rome, when in Rome do as the Romans do. It's about the Roman Empire not the Catholic church.

If you don't agree with someone it is always a good idea to make alternative suggestions.

It is never acceptable to make a personal attack on someone for his or her opinion.

It is never acceptable to make a personal attack on someone for his or her beliefs.

Real aikido is not just for the dojo.

RED
10-10-2010, 10:06 PM
My blood pressure is more than fine, thank you.

Did you freak out because of my mention of your own beliefs?

That stuff really doesn't matter to you, but... to others?

It doesn't have an actual impact upon my life? How gratuitous!

I think we might have an issue of translation here, because I don't know what you mean by "my beliefs". I wasn't aware we were talking about my religious views, nor was I aware you were aware of what my religious views were, seeing that isn't really something I recall ever going into great detail about on this website...:confused:

I thought you were upset that I said "When in Rome..." as my opinion of the entire of how to respond to the "clapping in class" oddity that happens in some dojo. I figured you just didn't like my nonchalant attitude. I've visited people who do it, my dojo doesn't practice it, but when in another man's house I abide by his rules..thus , "When in Rome.." <----the expression..I'm not Catholic. lol

Basically, you're mad and I can't figure out why now. :p :p

It's not gratuitous... because my thoughts on the "clapping" thing doesn't impact your life. You'll be okay man, even if I don't do things for the same reason you do... scouts honor!

Carsten Möllering
10-11-2010, 02:22 AM
... Si fueris Rōmae, Rōmānō vīvitō mōre; si fueris alibī, vīvitō sicut ibi. When in Rome, when in Rome do as the Romans do. It's about the Roman Empire not the Catholic church.
This is a word of Aurelius Ambrosius / Saint Ambrose (*337-340, + 4 April 397).
It is told that he gave this advise to Augustine of Hippo/Aurelius Augustinus Hipponensis/St. Augustine (*November 13, 354, + August 28, 430).
The english version comes from Ductor Dubitantium of Jeremy Taylor (*1613, + 13 August 1667).

So it is not just "about the roman empire", but exactly about the same issue which is discussed here: How to live or to practice ones religious beliefs in a surrounding which differs strongly from them. There was the pagan roman religion and philosophy and some different streams of christian theology there. And there was no peace between them. So you had to decide what to say, what to think and "whether you clap your hands or not".

Well I think bowing is not a religious issue.
Clapping hands in front of a shinto shrine, kamidana, etc. (which most non japanese dojo don't have!) truely is.

Randall Lim
10-22-2010, 03:34 AM
I am new to Aikido and have a question about bowing before and after class with clapping.

I train in a USAF dojo. We do not clap when we formally bow in and out. I've visited other dojos in the area, that are not USAF and some do clap as part of their formal bow.

I noticed that at Doshu's recent seminar in Montreal that he didn't clap.

I've never been to Japan, yet.
Do they clap in Hombu dojo Japan?

Thanks.
Rey

:ai: :ki:

Clapping is from the Shinto religion which O-Sensei was a devout believer & practitioner. Clapping is only done before a Shinto shrine.
O-Sensei's portrait is not a Shinto Shrine. Neither is any other Kanji Caligraphy that might be displayed at the Kamiza.

So only in proper built-to-measure Dojos are Shinto shrines most likely to be built. In most modern make-shift Dojos where the mats are laid before every training & removed after every training, Shinto shirines are most unlikely to be put up, thus rendering any clapping unnecessary.

Greg Jennings
10-26-2010, 02:02 PM
Clapping is from the Shinto religion which O-Sensei was a devout believer & practitioner. .
That is not entirely correct. The Founder was a devout follower of Omotokyo, one of the New Religions and, depending on your viewpoint, derived from Shinto.

Pat Togher
10-26-2010, 02:52 PM
So your strong Christian beliefs allow you to call for the Shinto kamis to come sit and watch the class. It's ok for me, but maybe not so for your Church. It's not just a matter of "when in Rome".

I am no scholar of these issues, but I believe Paul adressed a similar issue in 1 Cor 8.

Pat

Flintstone
10-27-2010, 04:23 AM
I am no scholar of these issues, but I believe Paul adressed a similar issue in 1 Cor 8.

Pat
Sorry, I'm not sitting with my Bible beside me right now. Could you quote, please?

Demetrio Cereijo
10-27-2010, 04:36 AM
Sorry, I'm not sitting with my Bible beside me right now. Could you quote, please?

A barbecue is a barbecue.

Flintstone
10-27-2010, 04:54 AM
Oh, the one about the idols, I see. Thanks, Pat, for the reference. I believe Paul is making my point exactly, but I cannot discuss it here with Maggie since I'll be banned again by Jun.

Pat Togher
10-27-2010, 04:34 PM
Demetrio - Yes. Or perhaps, a barbeque is just a barbeque if you are a believer.

Alejandro.
I believe Paul acually contradicts you, which is why I mention it.
Discussion:
(Jun, please delete if you feel this is inappropriate - I can always continue the discsussion via PM.)

I don't generally stray this far into religious topics, as they are not my areas of expertise. However, having recently discussed this passage in church, and it being relavent (I think) to the thread, I'll presume on Jun's good graces for a moment and explain to the best of my ability. I'll not include the relavent verses, though. the text is widely available (on and offline) in numerous translations for those interested in the exact wording.

The quote generally refers to christians eating meat from sacrifices. The relavance to this thread, I think, is interacting with non-christians in ritual settings. Paul's response in that the idols are not god (to a christian), so there's no conflict - go ahead and eat the food. His caveat is that you should not eat the food if that will draw other christians away from christian practice (i.e. you should not act in a way that would confuse the brothers and sisters).

So to bring it back home, a christian would not believe they are summoning any gods by clapping their hands, so a handclap (for a christian in this setting) is just a handclap.

Pat

thisisnotreal
10-27-2010, 05:07 PM
Yes, And if something actually appeared? What then?

Pat Togher
10-27-2010, 05:32 PM
Yes, And if something actually appeared? What then?
Hah! If something did, I imagine something in the order of an immediate conversion might happen, or fleeing towards the door! LOL:

And if something didn't? :p

Pat

Demetrio Cereijo
10-27-2010, 05:44 PM
Yes, And if something actually appeared? What then?

Holy Water. And don't grab his/her wrist. Tell yourself "I should have joined the Sumo club"...

:D

Pat Togher
10-27-2010, 05:53 PM
Holy Water. And don't grab his/her wrist. Tell yourself "I should have joined the Sumo club"...

:D

Now that is funny!

Pat

Demetrio Cereijo
10-27-2010, 06:19 PM
I've found it:

Your discussion of possession reminded me of a story Mary Heiny told at a seminar a number of years ago. I'll relate it, since it also shares a common source (Hikitsuchi Sensei) and may in fact have been Chinkon Kishin, I'm not sure. Appologies in advance for anything I may get wrong in the retelling, I'm sure I'll miss a few details.

So Mary and Jack Wada were visiting Shingu to study with Hikitsuchi Sensei. Apparently they had been working on some ritual/practice (chinkon kishin?) that was designed to draw the kami down to the practitioner. Apparently, back at their hotel (outside of Shingu, I'm afraid that I forgot which town) Jack decided to head up to the roof and do some homework with this new practice. A little while later Jack comes running into Mary's room, completely white and terrified looking. He claims that he's drawn some horrible 'black' creature/kami thing down and it's after him. Mary looks outside the room and claims to have seen/sensed this malicious blackness down the hall. They're both freaking out at this point. She said that the blackness thing was headed down the hall towards them when it stopped outside of the door of fellow inn-guest Meik Skoss. Suddenly Meik opens his door and oblivious to their urges to stay in his room, walks out into the hall into the space where the blackness thing is. At which point (from Mary's view) it dissipates and Meik asks them why they're making so much noise. The end. Nothing bad happened to Meik or Mary or Jack. When they told Hikitsuchi about it later, he told them that they were foolish to use the ritual at their inn, because that part of Japan was known for its evil-black kami and that the practice should only be done in a place that was already purified like a dojo. Meik was apparently quite unimpressed that he had walked through an evil kami and went back to his room
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=198581&postcount=180

Be Meik Skoss. Problem solved.:D

Pat Togher
10-27-2010, 06:43 PM
LOL. Easy for Mike, for the rest of us - not so much !

There is some fascinating stuff in the rest of the thread you linked. Thanks!

Pat

thisisnotreal
10-27-2010, 07:28 PM
kinda sorta along those lines: Interview with Mariye Takahashi (http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=108)

Pat Togher
10-28-2010, 11:02 AM
Some interesting comments on Aikido and religion here: André Nocquet Returns To Japan (http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=405)

Pat

Greg Jennings
10-28-2010, 11:33 AM
Evil presences, spirits of O'Sensei and Terry Dobson arguing...the
Easter Bunny is going to be next.

RED
10-28-2010, 11:06 PM
Oh, the one about the idols, I see. Thanks, Pat, for the reference. I believe Paul is making my point exactly, but I cannot discuss it here with Maggie since I'll be banned again by Jun.

:cool:

ewolput
11-24-2010, 12:21 PM
When I was a young shodan in 1976, I trained at the Korindo dojo in Shizuoka, they did clapping before the training started. I did also, of course totally wrong. One of the deshi came afterwards to me and he said : if you don't understand, don't do it because it makes a fool of you.
Today we just bow and no clapping, because I still don't understand :-)

Eddy

mathewjgano
11-24-2010, 12:52 PM
When I was a young shodan in 1976, I trained at the Korindo dojo in Shizuoka, they did clapping before the training started. I did also, of course totally wrong. One of the deshi came afterwards to me and he said : if you don't understand, don't do it because it makes a fool of you.
Today we just bow and no clapping, because I still don't understand :-)

Eddy

If I didn't try at the things I don't understand, I wouldn't do much of anything. Was it because of some religious or spiritual understanding or something more mechanical?

ewolput
11-25-2010, 03:52 AM
The bow and the clapping in the Shizuoka dojo was in front of a Shinto shrine. In that time I didn't know anything about shinto and shrines. Now I have some understanding because I have some family in Japan. The message in that time was very clear, you don't have to do those things if it is not your religion or belief. You only have to show some respect to the other people who understand the bowing and clapping. Now when I visit a Shinto shrine, I only bow to show my respect but I don't clap because it has to meaning to me . I can understand the influence of some religion into martial arts, but this is not a reason to do all those things just copying and have no spirit. If I put a cross in the dojo and before training I do my christian ritual, I cannot expect from non christians they do my ritual, if they understand they can do but in the other case they just show respect by bowing. And by the way in my dojo there is no cross :D

Tony Wagstaffe
11-25-2010, 04:25 AM
Happy clappy people?
Something to do with invoking the Gods?
As I don't believe in that hogwash I would clap to applaud......

David Orange
11-25-2010, 09:44 AM
When I was a young shodan in 1976, I trained at the Korindo dojo in Shizuoka, they did clapping before the training started. I did also, of course totally wrong. One of the deshi came afterwards to me and he said : if you don't understand, don't do it because it makes a fool of you.
Today we just bow and no clapping, because I still don't understand :-)

Eddy

Do you ever miss Shizuoka?

I do. Sometimes more than others.

Mochizuki Sensei was there, of course, and he had a shrine at the head of the dojo. We always bowed and clapped toward that at the beginning, with Sensei facing the kamiza. Then he would turn around and bow toward us as we bowed toward him (no clapping at that point).

He told a great story along these lines, though.

When he was young, living in Tokyo, training in judo, having already been uchi deshi to Kyuzo Mifune, he and his friends used to pass a Shinto shrine. The priest was an old man who was the last headmaster of a jujutsu ryu. He called Mochizuki and his friends to stop and told them about his art, called gyokushin ryu. So these young judoka began to train with him, but they found it very boring because it was all kata and they were used to a lot of randori.

Eventually, all these guys quit except Mochizuki, who kept going for some reason. To encourage him, this priest fed Mochizuki the cakes and things that had been offered to the kami at his Shinto shrine. Sensei said he would eat all this up while the old priest talked to him, but when he finished eating he would make a getaway. He earned about shodan or nidan, then quit. The old priest said, "From this point on, the art has a lot of sutemi waza. It gets very interesting." But Sensei was very busy then and he didn't see any future in the training, so he just stopped going.

Years later, after the old man died and Sensei had been through Ueshiba's Hell Gym, trained in katori shinto ryu, trained with Gichin Funakoshi in karate, went through the war and was living in France, he saw professional wrestlers doing sacrifice throws and he started thinking back on the old priest and his gyokushin ryu jujutsu. He started feeling very bad for how he had treated the old priest, and was embarrassed to realize that he, himself, had allowed an very old koryu art to vanish from Japan. At his dojo, in the early 1990s, he showed me a large collection of books, a set of the complete registry of all the bujutusu ryu of Japan, and he showed me the listing for gyokushin ryu, and the name of his old teacher, the last in the line. He felt very bad that he had let this art slip through his hands. So ever since he lived in France, he had spent incredible effort and time reconstructing what he could of the gyokushin ryu. Though he never even saw the sutemi waza of gyokushin ryu, he created a broad repertoire of very unique stuemi waza and incorporated them into his yoseikan budo. Later, when he gave out the menkyo kaiden to twenty of his longest-standing students, he listed "yoseikan gyokushin ryu" among the elements each man had mastered. However, this was all just surmise since he had never actually seen any of the gyokushin ryu sutemi waza. And gyokushin ryu did not continue in the registry of bujutsu ryu past Teruo Ohshima, his old teacher.

But maybe Sensei did carry the real spirit of the school. He knew the old man well and he had heard much of what he had to tell him. And he had eaten the food that had been blessed for the kami in the shrine. Maybe that had a deeper effect on his spirit than he imagined. Maybe that was why he felt so haunted, years later, by the old man's request that he learn the art, and by the memory of his own escape from that learning.

Myself, I often feel a sort of haunting from Mochizuki Sensei. I don't mind at all. I do miss him a lot and I think back on his yoseikan budo as a sort of "ghost ryu" because it has pretty well vanished from the earth. The menkyo holders call his art "Seifukai" now and the yoseikan budo of Hiroo Mochizuki is a very different thing. The closest thing is Patrick Auge's yoseikan budo, but even that has been fully renovated by Auge's western thinking, life and students in the US and Canada.

At the end of classes, Sensei would lead us in recitation of "Seikun," a little essay by an emperor, I believe, possibly Meiji, which began, "Seikun, fubo ni kou ni, keitei ni yu ni, fuufu ai washi, ho yu ai shinji..."

"Be filial to your parents, affectionate to your brothers and sisters; as husbands and wives be harmonious, as friends be true..."

I can still hear his gravelly old voice reciting that statement. I still hear the clapping of the hands and I feel the slap in my own hands. I feel the bow. I'm sure those things will never leave me.

That's why I say, "If you don't like the tea, you don't have to drink it. But I won't add sugar to it and I won't use Lipton instead of o cha."

Best to all.

David

David Orange
11-25-2010, 09:57 AM
The menkyo holders call his art "Seifukai" now and the yoseikan budo of Hiroo Mochizuki is a very different thing. The closest thing is Patrick Auge's yoseikan budo, but even that has been fully renovated by Auge's western thinking, life and students in the US and Canada.

Actually, Edgar Kruyning, in the Netherlands, was ranked godan by Minoru Mochizuki, in his own yoseikan budo and godan by Hiroo Mochizuki in that form of yoseikan budo. He continued with Hiroo Sensei for a long time, so he may have reached higher rank than that. And his teaching remains very faithful to Mochizuki Sensei's old way. So if you want to know that way, Edgar Kruyning is a name you should not overlook.

And if you want to see something of that Way in book form, be sure to get a copy of "The Art of Jujutsu" by Edgar Kruyning.

Best.

David

Flintstone
11-25-2010, 11:39 AM
And if you want to see something of that Way in book form, be sure to get a copy of "The Art of Jujutsu" by Edgar Kruyning.
Got it. Enjoyed it. Treasure it as a "rare" (as in rara avis) hybrid between the old and the new systems.

mathewjgano
11-25-2010, 12:24 PM
The bow and the clapping in the Shizuoka dojo was in front of a Shinto shrine. In that time I didn't know anything about shinto and shrines. Now I have some understanding because I have some family in Japan. The message in that time was very clear, you don't have to do those things if it is not your religion or belief. You only have to show some respect to the other people who understand the bowing and clapping. Now when I visit a Shinto shrine, I only bow to show my respect but I don't clap because it has to meaning to me . I can understand the influence of some religion into martial arts, but this is not a reason to do all those things just copying and have no spirit. If I put a cross in the dojo and before training I do my christian ritual, I cannot expect from non christians they do my ritual, if they understand they can do but in the other case they just show respect by bowing. And by the way in my dojo there is no cross :D

:blush: That makes sense. When I read your earlier post I thought, "how do you clap wrong?" Now it seems like it should have been more obvious to me. :) I guess I'll blame that on my cold medicine. Take care,
Matt

David Orange
11-25-2010, 12:43 PM
When I read your earlier post I thought, "how do you clap wrong?"

Let's just say, it only had to happen once for me to realize that you must not clap too close to the nose....

David Orange
11-25-2010, 12:44 PM
Got it. Enjoyed it. Treasure it as a "rare" (as in rara avis) hybrid between the old and the new systems.

Yes, Edgar has a firm grasp of both approaches and the physical and mental abilities to develop both and represent them well to the world.

Best to you.

David

Janet Rosen
11-25-2010, 01:27 PM
Do you ever miss Shizuoka?
I do. Sometimes more than others....
He told a great story along these lines, though.

David, what a bittersweet story on a wintry Thanksgiving morning... Thank you.

David Orange
11-25-2010, 10:13 PM
David, what a bittersweet story on a wintry Thanksgiving morning... Thank you.

Kochira koso.

David

Matthew Brosseau
12-07-2010, 02:29 AM
We clap when there's some sort of accomplishment that has been made such as a new ranking,

OwlMatt
12-07-2010, 03:48 PM
In my dojo (ASU), some instructors clap and some do not. I clap with those sensei who clap. If I ever become an instructor myself (that's a looong way off), I will not clap, because I think it ascribes an element of religious ritual to the act of bowing in that doesn't belong there. We ought to bow to O Sensei out of respect and thanks, but I perfer to bow to him the same way I bow to my own sensei.