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tim evans
10-02-2010, 12:47 AM
The past few classes you can hear the sound of my blend a renounding thud:crazy: :D now I,m obsessed with trying to blend softer thoughts.:)

RED
10-02-2010, 07:28 AM
well...that sounds painful. o_o

dps
10-02-2010, 09:43 AM
Get a softer uke? :)

David

Rob Watson
10-02-2010, 11:40 AM
Several 'drills' come to mind (I made these up from my own experience so good luck).

1) Go much slower, like impossibly slower. This takes a very helpful uke who is willing to 'play along' with the drill but not in the dive bunny sort of way. Slow helps by giving time to read and study all the nuance of movement.

2) Try doing the form without actually touching uke. This is an impossible drill so when you do touch keep the touch as light as possible.

3) Let uke use a live blade knife. Blending becomes really critical in this context. It is amazing how much things change when a sharp blade is thrown into the mix. This drill is best used in conjunction with the first two. This is not for the faint of heart I you are on your own. To 'warm up' to this drill first use a mock blade but put some lipstick on the blade edge and see just how much you get onto your self as a wake up call.

Of course, the first steps are to ask your teacher about it and run these drills by them before getting a bunch of blood clotting on the mat. As a former boy scout I suggest you be prepared (quikclot, bandages, etc) because there will be blood.

WilliB
10-02-2010, 12:23 PM
2) Try doing the form without actually touching uke. This is an impossible drill so when you do touch keep the touch as light as possible.

Just to chime in, I visited a group here that does "Korindo Aikido". They do an exercise that is exactly like you describe every time, it is part of their standard routine. They call it "En Randori". Quite interesting, actually.

tim evans
10-02-2010, 08:24 PM
Just to chime in, I visited a group here that does "Korindo Aikido". They do an exercise that is exactly like you describe every time, it is part of their standard routine. They call it "En Randori". Quite interesting, actually.

Hey Will is there any videos of this?

WilliB
10-02-2010, 09:48 PM
Hey Will is there any videos of this?

I donīt know. These days you find most everything on Youtube, so perhaps. Korindo Aikido seems to be a very small style though.

tim evans
10-02-2010, 10:08 PM
I donīt know. These days you find most everything on Youtube, so perhaps. Korindo Aikido seems to be a very small style though.

very interresting style

lbb
10-03-2010, 05:25 AM
The past few classes you can hear the sound of my blend a renounding thud:crazy: :D now I,m obsessed with trying to blend softer thoughts.:)

What do you mean by "your blend"? Are you really slamming into your partner with a "resounding thud"? Or is that the sound you make when you hit the mat?

Amir Krause
10-03-2010, 08:40 AM
Just to chime in, I visited a group here that does "Korindo Aikido". They do an exercise that is exactly like you describe every time, it is part of their standard routine. They call it "En Randori". Quite interesting, actually.

Hi Willi

May I ask who did you visit and where exactly?
Which type of "en Randori" did they practice when you visited?
I am a Korindo practitioner myself, and have visited Japan once, so I look for updates.

Thanks
Amir

P.S.
Korindo people rarely put anything worthwhile on youtube, at least as far as I know. Korindo is much closer to the culture of Koryu in this (Blood Oaths were required until the 60s), information sharing with outsiders is rather rare. Even my Israeli (rather modern) teacher still forbids students from placing anything on the net.

tim evans
10-03-2010, 09:07 AM
What do you mean by "your blend"? Are you really slamming into your partner with a "resounding thud"? Or is that the sound you make when you hit the mat?

The first movement of shomenuchi nikkyo ura I,m entering late and theres the thud just trying to enter quicker one uke will enter at half speed the other at warp speed (thud) it,s just maddning:crazy:

WilliB
10-03-2010, 09:38 AM
May I ask who did you visit and where exactly?
Which type of "en Randori" did they practice when you visited?
I am a Korindo practitioner myself, and have visited Japan once, so I look for updates.

Thanks
Amir

P.S.
Korindo people rarely put anything worthwhile on youtube, at least as far as I know. Korindo is much closer to the culture of Koryu in this (Blood Oaths were required until the 60s), information sharing with outsiders is rather rare. Even my Israeli (rather modern) teacher still forbids students from placing anything on the net.

It has been a while, but they used to train in the Fukugawa Sport Center. They also had another place in Shibuya, but I did not go there.
The "en randori" was a part of every training session. One at a time would get up, and take attacks from everybody. The idea was that the defender would kind of wrap himself around the attacker, without touching. Just as described here. Quite a good workout actually, as they speed it up according to abilities.

I did not get the feeling that they were as secretive as you said. I found them in the sports center catalogue, sent an e-mail. and they said sure I would be welcome to try. Simple as that.

Rob Watson
10-03-2010, 11:10 AM
Hey Will is there any videos of this?

The AikiExpo 2002 part 1 DVD from aikidojournal.com has a segment with John Goss of Korindo Aikido.

Janet Rosen
10-03-2010, 11:19 AM
The first movement of shomenuchi nikkyo ura I,m entering late and theres the thud just trying to enter quicker one uke will enter at half speed the other at warp speed (thud) it,s just maddning:crazy:

ma'ai is a wonderful combination of distance, speed, velocity and intent. You have stated your problem and it's solution: if you enter late, no amount of velocity on your part will compensate (rather, a different response is called for); therefore to do the technique as shown, work on entering earlier - suggest you ask fast uke to slow down, then focus on soft eyes and sensing his intent, moving the moment you feel/see his center begin to shift to move, matching his speed.

dps
10-03-2010, 11:52 AM
The first movement of shomenuchi nikkyo ura I,m entering late and theres the thud just trying to enter quicker one uke will enter at half speed the other at warp speed (thud) it,s just maddning:crazy:

Practice, practice, practice and practice some more.

David

Rob Watson
10-03-2010, 12:24 PM
The first movement of shomenuchi nikkyo ura I,m entering late and theres the thud just trying to enter quicker one uke will enter at half speed the other at warp speed (thud) it,s just maddning:crazy:

focus on soft eyes and sensing his intent, moving the moment you feel/see his center begin to shift to move, matching his speed.

This is where the strength and weakness of the Iwama methods (as I understand them) is revealed. Bypass that hard part that Ms. Rosen mentions and just attack first! Take the initiative and make uke respond and there by be in control. This permits one to work on stuff without having to get the hard part right. In the end the ability to read or even direct the intent of uke is required for the mature expression of the art but it can take a while to develop.

The basic progression is to do the form kihon which is generally static and could be described as 1-2-3 y the numbers for each segment of the technique. Then ki no nagere - in motion - with the same exact form but no 1-2-3 'stilted' transitions but continuous smooth motion (no need to be fast, just smooth). As one improves then speed up as one is able (just not in kihon).

I think the ability to read intent is exactly the key to good awase (blending). If anyone has specific drills on how to develop the ability to read (I'll table directing for now) intent I'd love to hear them. At the recent TSYR seminar I asked Mr. Threadgill if there was such a drill in their art and, well, I'm hoping for a slightly different way. Repeated bokken strikes to the forehead by a master instructor reading ones intent may work wonderfully but I'm looking for a different way - I don't mind if it takes a bit longer to 'take'.

Janet Rosen
10-03-2010, 02:49 PM
This is where the strength and weakness of the Iwama methods (as I understand them) is revealed. Bypass that hard part that Ms. Rosen mentions and just attack first! Take the initiative and make uke respond and there by be in control. This permits one to work on stuff without having to get the hard part right..

Excuse me? You are misreading my actual words. Where did I write anything about attacking first? I wrote one can start to move when one sees and feels the movement from uke. Uke's strike has already started at that point. I am talking about reacting to it earlier.

Now had I known you were talking about static practice, I would not have suggested this. You did not state it in your OP, or else I missed it. The fact that you later describe 1 partner as attacking slowly and 1 fast implied to me a dynamic practice.

Regardless your comments are unneccesarily snide and very much not appreciated. I will not be replying to you anytime soon. Best of luck in your training.

lbb
10-03-2010, 06:00 PM
Practice, practice, practice and practice some more.

David

Yeah, what David said. It ain't smooth? Don't look for a quick fix -- practice until it is smooth.

Janet Rosen
10-03-2010, 06:39 PM
Excuse me? You are misreading my actual words. Where did I write anything about attacking first? I wrote one can start to move when one sees and feels the movement from uke. Uke's strike has already started at that point. I am talking about reacting to it earlier....
Regardless your comments are unneccesarily snide and very much not appreciated. I will not be replying to you anytime soon. Best of luck in your training.

Apologies to the OP - my consternation is to Rob's reply; I was guilty of sloppy "threading" this morning

tim evans
10-03-2010, 08:10 PM
Apologies to the OP - my consternation is to Rob's reply; I was guilty of sloppy "threading" this morning

Thats ok Janet mary and dave hit the nail on the head practice,practice,practice:D

Rob Watson
10-04-2010, 09:43 AM
Excuse me? You are misreading my actual words. Where did I write anything about attacking first? I wrote one can start to move when one sees and feels the movement from uke. Uke's strike has already started at that point. I am talking about reacting to it earlier.

Now had I known you were talking about static practice, I would not have suggested this. You did not state it in your OP, or else I missed it. The fact that you later describe 1 partner as attacking slowly and 1 fast implied to me a dynamic practice.

Regardless your comments are unneccesarily snide and very much not appreciated. I will not be replying to you anytime soon. Best of luck in your training.

Ms. Rosen, sorry, snide is not at all my intent. I simply started on my train of thought ... just happened to be right after your quoted section so it does look like I was more directly addressing your point. Sloppy writting style on my part. Please forgive me.

What I mean't about the quoted section regarding intent is that reading intent is the hard part that I suggest be bypassed. I just described the kihon and ki no nagare methods used in the Iwama method as I experience them. Kihon is static and ki no nagare is flowing in motion with matched speeds-never mentioned a speed differential as that would lead nowhere. In the Iwama method I know the tori initiates the attack not the uke. This way the need to read ukes intent is bypassed by taking the initiative.

I'm serious about the drills or methods for developing the ability to read intent. I find it to be very difficult so trying to do that in order to get the technique to work is going to be exceptionally difficult. Reading one moments from a very early stage is not so hard but getting dialed in on the intent of uke to move before the movement has begun is what I'm talking about.

Rob Watson
10-04-2010, 09:56 AM
Excuse me? You are misreading my actual words. Where did I write anything about attacking first? I wrote one can start to move when one sees and feels the movement from uke. Uke's strike has already started at that point. I am talking about reacting to it earlier.

Again, sorry. What I mean't regarding the weakness and strength of the Iwama method (I have no idea what methods of practice Ms. Rosen does so I'm not directing my comments at that despite my sloppily constructed reply) is that one is able to sidestep the need to read intent (an exceptionally valuable and critical skill) by initiating the attack. In the Iwama method I study this is the case. I see this approach as a weakness in that the direct development and need to read the uke intent is not practiced (as far as I can tell). The strength of the method is that once one is able to read intent it would basically proceed along the lines of regular practice in that tori would then appear to be in control of the movements and in effect making uke move as if tori had attacked first.

Really easy to show in 90 seconds on the mat but really hard to convey accurately in writing.

To recap: Ms. Rosen says read intent and catch the uke as they move their center (I paraphrase). I agree 100% but I find that exceptionally difficult to do. In the method I've experienced the issue is avoided by having tori initiate the technique.

sorokod
10-04-2010, 01:43 PM
If anyone has specific drills on how to develop the ability to read (I'll table directing for now) intent I'd love to hear them.

As an Iwama practitioner you do that already: Migi no awase and Hidari no awase.

grondahl
10-04-2010, 03:36 PM
Iīm not at all sure that hidari/migi no awase is all that you need. While I see them as very important in getting a feel for awase the fact that you are locked down to a strict form based training makes it very easy to not learn reading intent at all . I think that slow focused training where uke just is doing different serious attacks (bukiwaza or taijutsu) and tori focuses on seeing the attack as it is and just avoiding it is the way to go, then of course incrementally increase speed and power as you get better.

lbb
10-04-2010, 04:09 PM
I have to say, when I look at the title of this thread, I think of a librarian type hanging out in a dojo going "Shhh!" every time someone thumps on the floor.

(just like that other thread that makes me think, "Morihei Ueshiba's KUNG FU GRIP!!!")

Rob Watson
10-04-2010, 10:58 PM
Iīm not at all sure that hidari/migi no awase is all that you need. While I see them as very important in getting a feel for awase the fact that you are locked down to a strict form based training makes it very easy to not learn reading intent at all . I think that slow focused training where uke just is doing different serious attacks (bukiwaza or taijutsu) and tori focuses on seeing the attack as it is and just avoiding it is the way to go, then of course incrementally increase speed and power as you get better.

Thanks, I was looking for an isolated drill specific to working on intent. Certainly all the buki waza (or any old waza) present an opportunity to use intent but along with a whole bunch of other stuff. Being able to seperate the variables helps with working on each component. I'm aware that some variables may not be amenable to that approach but I'm ever hopeful.